Is your frugality rooted only in a sense of emotionless optimization?

[Ron Scott]

Is your frugality rooted only in a sense of emotionless optimization?

Once in a while someone here says something that sticks with me and this is one of those times.

Thank you eyesonthehorizon. It’s out of context but it doesn’t matter because it works well as a standalone inquiry.

As the saying goes, I wish I had a nickel for every time the word “frugal” is used around here.

I doubt everyone attaches the same meaning to it.

If you think of yourself as frugal, what is that rooted in?

[Laura33]

If you think of yourself as frugal, what is that rooted in?

Overwhelming fear of poverty and jealousy of those who we just handed life on a platter.  The exact opposite of emotionless optimization. 

The fear almost entirely went away once I realized I was FI.  Alas, so did much of the knee-jerk desire for frugality -- it is now a more conscious choice based on values and too much stuff.  Healthier overall, but damn it was easier to save a lot when I was terrified.  ;-)

[spartana]

Throw in a Lady Gaga meme: I was born this way!

I don't consider myself intentionally frugal but I have found that I actually enjoy the more frugal things in life then I do the more luxurious - or even normal things - which often leave me feeling unhappy and very dissatisfied (I'd much rather row my own tiny boat then sit on a luxury cruise ship being stuffed full of food lime a foie gras duck - youd have to pay me to do that!).. I also grew up in poverty but instead of it making me feel fearful (or jealous)  it made me feel stronger. Life can throw crap at me and it's so not a big deal as I've been there done that and came out the other side joyful and grateful for whatever it is I have even if it's not much by many people's standards.

Plus I love the feeling of strength and self-ability/relience I get from a more frugal stoic life.  I'm accidentally FI in that I was never frugal to reach FI and RE but it was a product/side effect of living the life I wanted to live.

[Tass]

I sometimes have a hard time making trivial decisions like "which of these brands should I pick?" I find it VERY hard to just grab one at random off the shelf. Frugality is an easy metric that allows me to make those decisions easily. I'm capable of choosing a more expensive thing if I decide it's worth it, but it's really nice to just have a default metric I'm confident in.

[wageslave23]

Ruthless optimization.  Same reason I Google maps a route to see which way will be shortest. Same reason it's takes me about 50% less time to complete the same task as coworkers.  Same reason I cut my own hair, because it takes me 20 minutes instead of twenty minutes just to drive there and back to have someone else take another 20 minutes. Money is time and I don't waste like to waste either.

[Telecaster]

I don't care for the term "frugal."  I prefer "efficient use of money." 

[Loren Ver]

For us it is several things, which are linked. 

One is price anchoring, it's true, not going to deny it. 

One is how much we think we are going to enjoy it/how much use we think we are actually going to get out of it. 

The third is a calculation where the cost of an hour of our life for the rest of our life turns out to be about $100. So when we were saving for retirement, if the thing was worth that amount of time, lets say it cost $100, was it worth the one hour that could go towards buying us that freedom forever instead.  Sometimes yes, usually, no. 

I wouldn't say it is so much emotionless optimization as much as sometimes ruthless, but we had a great time doing it.  Because we really got what we really wanted.  We never have buyers regret, and we love what we have, and we don't experience FOMO. 

Loren

[eyesonthehorizon]

Throw in a Lady Gaga meme: I was born this way!
...
Plus I love the feeling of strength and self-ability/relience I get from a more frugal stoic life.  I'm accidentally FI in that I was never frugal to reach FI and RE but it was a product/side effect of living the life I wanted to live.

Yes, this! I was always a careful steward of money or other valuable resources. I like not consuming what could be left in reserve for later, or for someone else, unless it really brings value to do so. Frugality is about being selective, to me: selecting for maximum value from minimum expense.

I do habitually optimize, but it’s not emotionless, it’s a game - I can exist in luxury on a budget well below the poverty line by choosing the luxuries I actually care about, which feels like getting away with something.

I went from a poverty income to a comfortably middle class income but never really saw any reason to change my spending. The life I want to live (most of the time) doesn’t cost much, in significant part because I really interrogated my own desires & needs rather than accepting the problems others were selling solutions to, then developed fulfillments of my own to those authentic desires whenever possible. Creativity is playful, it’s fun! Freeing up another recurring $20 in the monthly budget is a kick, & over time that accrual means if something pops up where spending will clearly bring disproportionate value I can do it without a second thought.

[cannotWAIT]

The third is a calculation where the cost of an hour of our life for the rest of our life turns out to be about $100.

How did you calculate this?

Anyway, I think part of it for me is snootily high standards. There's not much that I think is worth spending money on, so it's just very, very easy for me to walk away from a purchase. I can always think of ten reasons not to buy for every reason to buy. I was apparently born this way because I can remember people commenting on this tendency from a very young age. I also love the aesthetics of having a small, tidy life. Times in my life when I've had to make do with just a few kitchen utensils are among my most cherished memories, lol. I'm totally serious. Or traveling with a tiny capsule wardrobe. I have a very small home with exactly the right furnishings and nothing extra. A small wardrobe of good quality basics. So I guess I would say it's mostly an aesthetic choice.

But also, I've never had a job I enjoy and am desperate to be free from the need to work. I just mentally hold the desired object up in one hand and weigh it against another day of having my brains sucked dry by meaningless labor, and put the thing back down.

Sometimes I think FIRE is mostly about trying to cheat death by seizing as many good years as possible before returning to dust. So fear of death maybe? Or at least a fear of helplessness in old age.

[Loren Ver]

@cannotWAIT

The calculation runs under the assumption that you only need to save enough money for one year, that perpetually generates. 

So:

stache/ 365 days in a year/24 hours in a day

So for the classic 1 million stache ($40,000/year spending to start)

1,000,000/365/24  = $114 /hour

It's a fun motivator and puts things in perspective.

[Cranky]

I am vastly less rich than most people here, and I wish to live a comfortable life and be generous as well, so I’m frugal and thoughtful with my money.

[Frugal Lizard]

If you think of yourself as frugal, what is that rooted in?

Overwhelming fear of poverty and jealousy of those who we just handed life on a platter.  The exact opposite of emotionless optimization. 

The fear almost entirely went away once I realized I was FI.  Alas, so did much of the knee-jerk desire for frugality -- it is now a more conscious choice based on values and too much stuff.  Healthier overall, but damn it was easier to save a lot when I was terrified.  ;-)

I grew up with periods of poverty in my childhood. The fear of having no money for a tooth ache or blisters from boots no longer fitting is a huge motivator. I too envy those that don't have to plan and scrimp and seem so carefree.

[Thrallama]

I don't feel the fear-of-poverty emotions as strongly as others here, but I do have a strong dislike/disgust for wasting anything. I probably learned this at a very young age, being raised in a liberal area and learning about the greenhouse effect, landfills, recycling, saving the sea turtles, etc. as early as kindergarten.

My dislike of wasting material things/energy bleeds over into disliking wasting time and money. Spending less money naturally follows, since I want to make sure I'm getting the most value possible. I also don't like buying things that will produce waste (fast fashion, disposable items, even things I do want that have excess packaging annoy me). I find it mentally painful to throw away food, so I meal plan and do my best to use everything up before it goes bad.

So I guess my frugality is rooted in a desire to reduce waste in all its forms - wasting money, wasting time, wasting resources, all are bad. It's not emotionless, but it is a form of optimization.

[Sanitary Stache]

My main motivation to be frugal is opposition to consumption.

I am a consumer whore. And how. But I’d like not to be and so I try to be frugal.

When my frugality muscles are strong it feels good to do things that are frugal. Like when my legs are strong it feels good to ski hard all day. So today it felt great to build in a desk and shelves to the boys room with 2x4 scraps and leftover plywood.

I also think full time work is exploitative, but mostly I am turned off by wasteful consumption and hope to live the anti consumer example.

[Freedomin5]

I like finding creative ways to re-use things and get the most out of something. It’s a bit of a game for me to see how rich a life I can live on the least amount of money possible - to maximize stealth wealth. So definitely not emotionless.

[mistymoney]

"We must survive!"

[eyesonthehorizon]

I like how so many replies here are falling in line with the answer I was fishing for with the title question when I originally asked it - it’s not emotionless optimization for many of us, it’s actually joyful. I was trying to prod the thread owner into examining why they felt dissatisfied in their frugality.

For many of us it is an expression of our values - our ability to self-entertain by making a game of things, a proof of self-determination, resilience, & strength, a disavowal of waste or preference for elegant spareness, an ecological commitment. It’s evidence of a decoupling between “what we can afford” vs “what we decide we actually want,” which I regard as a pretty foundational principle in original-flavor mustachianism.

[FIREin2018]

@cannotWAIT

The calculation runs under the assumption that you only need to save enough money for one year, that perpetually generates. 

So:
stache/ 365 days in a year/24 hours in a day

So for the classic 1 million stache ($40,000/year spending to start)
1,000,000/365/24  = $114 /hour

It's a fun motivator and puts things in perspective.

Why are you counting the hrs that you sleep?

And what's your formula after you Fire?

[Zikoris]

For me frugality is mostly ethically-based and a combination of:

1. Not wanting to support horrible companies that commit human and animal rights abuses and destroy the environment. Making this even sort of a priority in your life eliminates like 80% of consumer spending.

2. Being strongly anti-waste. Making a goal to produce minimal garbage eliminates most remaining consumer spending that wasn't eliminated in Point 1.

3. My zero-fucking-around mindset. I don't enjoy shopping, so I avoid it wherever possible. Bulk weekend meal prep is extremely frugal, and also about the lowest effort option that exists for meal procurement. Having a small minimalist home is extremely frugal, and also has WAY less of a chore/fucking around overhead compared to other options. Having a capsule wardrobe is frugal and eliminates all time spent thinking about what to wear. Etc etc.

In distant fourth would be financial factors - not seeing various purchases as worth working longer for.

I would say finances overall are a pretty emotionless thing for me. My whole mindset is automate it and forget it. I don't think I've ever had strong emotions about money, good or bad.

[GilesMM]

Extreme frugality can be full of emotion, as in terror of being penniless, or empty of emotion, as in the robot optimizing every penny.

[FIREin2018]

Is your frugality rooted only in a sense of emotionless optimization?

Once in a while someone here says something that sticks with me and this is one of those times.
Thank you eyesonthehorizon. It’s out of context but it doesn’t matter because it works well as a standalone inquiry.

As the saying goes, I wish I had a nickel for every time the word “frugal” is used around here.
I doubt everyone attaches the same meaning to it.

If you think of yourself as frugal, what is that rooted in?

I think eyesonthehorizon wrote that in my thread of trying to be LESS frugal. (ie: time and mental spent on deciding to save 20 cents)
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/trying-to-be-less-frugal-during-fire-it's-hard/

I grew up in a middle class family. If $ was a problem when i was young, i didn't notice. But i also didn't ask for much. I was content in watching TV after school cartoons and the Yankees play.

It all started with a Tropicana orange juice rebate form when i was a kid (7th grade?).
Send in x upc codes from 64oz cartons, get $5. And i had a bank acct at that time thanks to my school in cooperation with a local bank.

I found it fun to send in rebates.
I liked that my bank acct grew.

Where did it go sideways where it's normal for me to spend an abnormal amount of energy deciding on saving a few cents, i don't know.

But that thread is helping me loosen my purse strings since I estimate that i'm going to die with too much $.
I already spent $40 on convenience this week that I wouldn't have before that thread.

Oh, optimization is not emotionless for me.
I enjoy finding a sale on something i could use then my credit card has a $X rebate for buying at that store for double dipping.

[Loren Ver]

@cannotWAIT

The calculation runs under the assumption that you only need to save enough money for one year, that perpetually generates. 

So:
stache/ 365 days in a year/24 hours in a day

So for the classic 1 million stache ($40,000/year spending to start)
1,000,000/365/24  = $114 /hour

It's a fun motivator and puts things in perspective.

Why are you counting the hrs that you sleep?

And what's your formula after you Fire?

@FIREin2018 I have chosen to count all the time since I believe all time counts and I use all the time, and I REALLY enjoy sleeping- especially with the fan on!  Breaking things up would be strange, I don't only use my house when I am in it, since I have to pay for it all the time.  I don't only pay for my car when I drive it, but all the time it sits outside gathering snow depreciating and needing insurance.   The energy to run my freezer is the same.  Taxes too.

I live 24 hours a day 356 days a year (and a little extra for leap year for the pedantic) so I have chosen to break it up that way. 

I am retired now, so I am no longer accumulating money, so I don't save it to put it away $100 at a time to buy an hour.  But I know that to me one hour of my life has been worth $100, so that marker is still set, the anchor is still there.  Do I have more money now? Sure.  But anchoring means I still feel that way.  So if I am going to buy something for $200, it needs to measure up to 2 hours of my life of freedom indefinitely, even though I am already free.

Loren

[Ron Scott]

For me frugality is mostly ethically-based and a combination of:

1. Not wanting to support horrible companies that commit human and animal rights abuses and destroy the environment.
…

Please tell us you also refuse to participate in the capitalization of these horrible companies through investing in equity index funds or bond funds that hold theiir debt. Your buy your own basket of diversified stocks and bonds only from the good companies, right?

[Zikoris]

For me frugality is mostly ethically-based and a combination of:

1. Not wanting to support horrible companies that commit human and animal rights abuses and destroy the environment.
…

Please tell us you also refuse to participate in the capitalization of these horrible companies through investing in equity index funds or bond funds that hold theiir debt. Your buy your own basket of diversified stocks and bonds only from the good companies, right?

What are you talking about? None of the evil companies make a penny from me investing in index funds. You have to do some serious mental gymnastics to argue that. "Participate in the capitalization" - fucking LOL.

[Ron Scott]

For me frugality is mostly ethically-based and a combination of:

1. Not wanting to support horrible companies that commit human and animal rights abuses and destroy the environment.
…

Please tell us you also refuse to participate in the capitalization of these horrible companies through investing in equity index funds or bond funds that hold theiir debt. Your buy your own basket of diversified stocks and bonds only from the good companies, right?

What are you talking about? None of the evil companies make a penny from me investing in index funds. You have to do some serious mental gymnastics to argue that. "Participate in the capitalization" - fucking LOL.

Keep fighting the good fight buddy. Frugality to the rescue. Bring ‘em to their goddamn knees.

[spartana]

I like how so many replies here are falling in line with the answer I was fishing for with the title question when I originally asked it - it’s not emotionless optimization for many of us, it’s actually joyful. I was trying to prod the thread owner into examining why they felt dissatisfied in their frugality.

For many of us it is an expression of our values - our ability to self-entertain by making a game of things, a proof of self-determination, resilience, & strength, a disavowal of waste or preference for elegant spareness, an ecological commitment. It’s evidence of a decoupling between “what we can afford” vs “what we decide we actually want,” which I regard as a pretty foundational principle in original-flavor mustachianism.

Said way better than I could! It is very joyful to know that you are unchaining yourself from others expectation of what makes a good life and following your own personally  rewarding path. Even If we are looked at as weirdo outlier for actually liking and wanting less fancy things.

[Radagast]

I don't think of myself as frugal. I'm here for four basic reasons.
I don't like waste. I mean I hate it less than some people, but why buy something you won't use or throw away a tube of toothpaste when you can spend another week mangling little bits out? But I do use tooth paste instead of baking soda, so...
Number go up. Even when very young I enjoyed saving my allowance more than spending it. I liked the power and potential it represented more than the things I could actually get with it. No change, really. (pun?)
Lazy. Honestly spending money is too much work to bother. And I am definitely not an optimizer for that reason. Optimization sounds great, and sometimes I start to do a few optimal things. Then I get bored. If I had that kind of time I'd take a nap. If I have that kind of energy I play with my kids. Then we can all take a nap.
I forgot the fourth reason.

[Ron Scott]

Sometimes I think it’s borderline condescending to refer to those who are at least partially locked into spending at low income levels as frugal. A family living on $35,000 or less is at ~125% of poverty level, typically seen as “low income”. Their limited options essentially require optimizing $$ and a frugal life. And the odds their kids have for escaping this life are slim.

A lot of the positive connotations of “being frugal” must appear insensitive to those families.

[FINate]

Is your frugality rooted only in a sense of emotionless optimization?

Once in a while someone here says something that sticks with me and this is one of those times.

Thank you eyesonthehorizon. It’s out of context but it doesn’t matter because it works well as a standalone inquiry.

As the saying goes, I wish I had a nickel for every time the word “frugal” is used around here.

I doubt everyone attaches the same meaning to it.

If you think of yourself as frugal, what is that rooted in?

My faith. I know, politics and faith. I have no desire to preach at anyone here, not trying to start a debate. This is just the theological underpinnings of my frugality and something I think about a lot.

It starts with my conviction that everything is a gift. And I mean everything: the universe, our planet, nature, my relationships, my possessions, my very life. Reality itself emanating from an eternal community of outgoing love.

This means nothing is really "mine" to begin with. I didn't earn my life, or the brain I was given, or my family, or the society I was born into. More than anything, I'm a caretaker of what I've been gifted. And it's not only about me, I'm part of a much larger story. What I do with my body, mind, community, money, the environment... it all matters and has meaning.

It's why we are fanatical about ad blockers and limiting exposure to our consumeristic culture. We know that buying stuff, while fun for a while, is ultimately empty. Same with just storing up wealth for the sake of having more wealth. These things distract (and can even separate) us from truly important things like people and relationships. And they affect others around us and long after us.

So my frugality isn't rooted in an arbitrary command or drudgery. Limiting our consumption is a form of defiance against mindless consumerism. It keeps us centered on things that produce contentment. When we do spend money it's more meaningful and brings us a lot more joy compared to when we were just spending impulsively.

We're far from perfect in these areas. It's a journey and we continue to learn and change as we go.

[Metalcat]

LOL!!!

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!

The thing that resonated with me about Pete was that he talked about how a frugal lifestyle promoted a healthier and happier life and I have found that to be 1000% true for myself.

For me it's not about spending less, it's about squeezing as much quality of life out of my money choices as I can. That means prioritizing truly enjoyable work, only doing as much as makes sense for me to be happy, and spending in ways that maximize my comfort, security, and enjoyment of the world.

Whenever I push myself to look for inexpensive ways to enjoy the world, I find myself having A LOT more joy than when I'm lazy and fall for convenient consumerism versions of "quality of life."

When I starter making A LOT of money, I tried upping my "quality of life" through spending on more luxurious things. It was boring and rarely actually improved my quality of life. When I found MMM and started really focusing on what matters to me, frugality was an *amazing* tool for assessing options, for quantifying the value of things.

For me frugality is all about feelings.

[Dicey]

Throw in a Lady Gaga meme: I was born this way!
...
Plus I love the feeling of strength and self-ability/relience I get from a more frugal stoic life.  I'm accidentally FI in that I was never frugal to reach FI and RE but it was a product/side effect of living the life I wanted to live.

Yes, this! I was always a careful steward of money or other valuable resources. I like not consuming what could be left in reserve for later, or for someone else, unless it really brings value to do so. Frugality is about being selective, to me: selecting for maximum value from minimum expense.

I do habitually optimize, but it’s not emotionless, it’s a game - I can exist in luxury on a budget well below the poverty line by choosing the luxuries I actually care about, which feels like getting away with something.

I went from a poverty income to a comfortably middle class income but never really saw any reason to change my spending. The life I want to live (most of the time) doesn’t cost much, in significant part because I really interrogated my own desires & needs rather than accepting the problems others were selling solutions to, then developed fulfillments of my own to those authentic desires whenever possible. Creativity is playful, it’s fun! Freeing up another recurring $20 in the monthly budget is a kick, & over time that accrual means if something pops up where spending will clearly bring disproportionate value I can do it without a second thought.

All of this, especially the bolded part.

[RetiredAt63]

Throw in a Lady Gaga meme: I was born this way!
...
Plus I love the feeling of strength and self-ability/relience I get from a more frugal stoic life.  I'm accidentally FI in that I was never frugal to reach FI and RE but it was a product/side effect of living the life I wanted to live.

Yes, this! I was always a careful steward of money or other valuable resources. I like not consuming what could be left in reserve for later, or for someone else, unless it really brings value to do so. Frugality is about being selective, to me: selecting for maximum value from minimum expense.

I do habitually optimize, but it’s not emotionless, it’s a game - I can exist in luxury on a budget well below the poverty line by choosing the luxuries I actually care about, which feels like getting away with something.

I went from a poverty income to a comfortably middle class income but never really saw any reason to change my spending. The life I want to live (most of the time) doesn’t cost much, in significant part because I really interrogated my own desires & needs rather than accepting the problems others were selling solutions to, then developed fulfillments of my own to those authentic desires whenever possible. Creativity is playful, it’s fun! Freeing up another recurring $20 in the monthly budget is a kick, & over time that accrual means if something pops up where spending will clearly bring disproportionate value I can do it without a second thought.

All of this, especially the bolded part.

Same here. 

My sister spends more on a cruise for her and her husband than I spent for 3 months in NZ and Australia back in 2019/20.  She couldn't believe how little I spent.  To my mind I spent a lot (flew quite a bit) - and had a wonderful time.

[aloevera1]

Nope.

I don't optimize for the sake of optimization, savings rate, time to RE or the maximum $ in my bank account.

I optimize for the best use of resources for my values/desires/enjoyment AND my time.

Heck, I don't even call myself frugal.

I am just very conscious about the money I spend and the value I get out of certain items. I don't value "luxury cars" so I drive a useful reliable CHEAP rust bucket.

This year I took an expensive trip to the destination of my dream. It was a choice. I am happy I did that.

I don't renovate my house despite it looking exceptionally dated.

We do optimize grocery shopping and mostly buy things on sale or at the cheaper location. We mostly cook from whatever is in season.

Still, I can easily pinpoint some areas that could be "optimized" based on some ideas from Internet. I just don't do it because it doesn't align with my vision.

I always ruthlessly assess the value of anything. My latest post in my Journal is about trying to find room in my budget for my therapy. I will look for something that has lesser value to me so I can swap without dropping my savings rate.

Optimize the value, not purely numbers.

The value includes VALUE OF MY TIME too. If I am spending everything on funsies and have to spend my whole career scrambling for funding that, this is not "optimal" to me either.

[Ron Scott]

I too get bored spending on things, but a buddy said to me once “You’re very frugal when considering purchases under $10,000”. LOL I think he’s right.

The other thing is I like buying things for others. Thinking about this for my daughter—(and if she doesn’t like it I’ll take it).

https://www.authorclock.com/shop

[FIREin2018]

The other thing is I like buying things for others. Thinking about this for my daughter—(and if she doesn’t like it I’ll take it).

https://www.authorclock.com/shop

neat, but I would think there's an app for that?
and what happens if you run out of quotes? can you download more for free?

[eyesonthehorizon]

Sometimes I think it’s borderline condescending to refer to those who are at least partially locked into spending at low income levels as frugal. A family living on $35,000 or less is at ~125% of poverty level, typically seen as “low income”. Their limited options essentially require optimizing $$ and a frugal life. And the odds their kids have for escaping this life are slim.

A lot of the positive connotations of “being frugal” must appear insensitive to those families.

Okay, but that is decontextualized both from my original question, aimed at someone who was clearly frugal by choice with loads of options, contemplating how to calibrate their chosen orientation to frugality, & thus on some level showing they themselves do value the behavior, AND from the actual meaning of the word, referring to economical use of resources.

You might as well say that it’s emotionally insensitive to find or express shared joy & fulfillment in working hard at a job because not all families have the ability to choose whether or not to work. I’ve never seen you hesitant to extol the rewarding nature of work before. What would make it insensitive is to butt into a conversation among people expressing how trapped they feel by their circumstances in compelled frugality or compelled work, to rattle on about how great a thing frugality or work is.

The word is agnostic of moral judgement - it only describes, factually, that resources are used with economy. Whether you attribute virtue or value to it is a matter of individual & cultural perspective, but in the end it is only describing behavior, without it being a praise or condemnation of any choices, or implication of real choices at all.

It also thereby has nothing to do with whether you have a lot or a little to start with.

[Metalcat]

Sometimes I think it’s borderline condescending to refer to those who are at least partially locked into spending at low income levels as frugal. A family living on $35,000 or less is at ~125% of poverty level, typically seen as “low income”. Their limited options essentially require optimizing $$ and a frugal life. And the odds their kids have for escaping this life are slim.

A lot of the positive connotations of “being frugal” must appear insensitive to those families.

Okay, but that is decontextualized both from my original question, aimed at someone who was clearly frugal by choice with loads of options, contemplating how to calibrate their chosen orientation to frugality, & thus on some level showing they themselves do value the behavior, AND from the actual meaning of the word, referring to economical use of resources.

You might as well say that it’s emotionally insensitive to find or express shared joy & fulfillment in working hard at a job because not all families have the ability to choose whether or not to work. I’ve never seen you hesitant to extol the rewarding nature of work before. What would make it insensitive is to butt into a conversation among people expressing how trapped they feel by their circumstances in compelled frugality or compelled work, to rattle on about how great a thing frugality or work is.

The word is agnostic of moral judgement - it only describes, factually, that resources are used with economy. Whether you attribute virtue or value to it is a matter of individual & cultural perspective, but in the end it is only describing behavior, without it being a praise or condemnation of any choices, or implication of real choices at all.

It also thereby has nothing to do with whether you have a lot or a little to start with.

IIRC, Ron had a whole thread positing that we change the entire definition of the word "frugal," which members pretty much overwhelmingly disagreed with. So he may be operating from a very particular position on the very concept of frugality to begin with.

[simonsez]

Grew up in a family pretty frugal by necessity and decided that when I was older that knowing more about personal finance (compared to my parents) so I could be frugal by choice for the most part (some areas, sure I'm frugal, and other areas, I feel I am not frugal but it aligns with my values) sounded better than alternatives.

[GuitarStv]

I grew up in a small northern community.  Nobody in that town had any money, and most were poor.  My parents were both doing well because they were teachers, but we never owned anything fancy or ostentatious.  We never hired anyone to do anything, my dad or mom would figure out a way to do it.  We didn't eat out because there really weren't any places to eat out.  My whole childhood we had the same furniture that we bought second hand when we moved in the house.  I never fell in the habit of buying fancy clothes because my whole childhood nobody around me had fancy clothes.  Then my parents gave me an allowance and I learned about the importance of saving for things you might want in the future.

Most of my frugality is kinda momentum from that.  I have no issue spending money on things that are important, but am typically pretty slow to spend and take a while to ponder spending.  The optimization feels natural and sensible.

[Ron Scott]

Sometimes I think it’s borderline condescending to refer to those who are at least partially locked into spending at low income levels as frugal. A family living on $35,000 or less is at ~125% of poverty level, typically seen as “low income”. Their limited options essentially require optimizing $$ and a frugal life. And the odds their kids have for escaping this life are slim.

A lot of the positive connotations of “being frugal” must appear insensitive to those families.

Okay, but that is decontextualized both from my original question, aimed at someone who was clearly frugal by choice with loads of options, contemplating how to calibrate their chosen orientation to frugality, & thus on some level showing they themselves do value the behavior, AND from the actual meaning of the word, referring to economical use of resources.

You might as well say that it’s emotionally insensitive to find or express shared joy & fulfillment in working hard at a job because not all families have the ability to choose whether or not to work. I’ve never seen you hesitant to extol the rewarding nature of work before. What would make it insensitive is to butt into a conversation among people expressing how trapped they feel by their circumstances in compelled frugality or compelled work, to rattle on about how great a thing frugality or work is.

The word is agnostic of moral judgement - it only describes, factually, that resources are used with economy. Whether you attribute virtue or value to it is a matter of individual & cultural perspective, but in the end it is only describing behavior, without it being a praise or condemnation of any choices, or implication of real choices at all.

It also thereby has nothing to do with whether you have a lot or a little to start with.

That’s a lot to unpack LOL but I agree with the thrust of what I think you’re getting at here.

If you’re saying those with wealth can be frugal by spending below their means, I’m with you.

There’s just a big difference between pinching pennies by choice vs. necessity. Calling a poor person shrewd, savvy, financially disciplined, thrifty…or frugal? It more than misses the mark
IMO.

[Telecaster]

Sometimes I think it’s borderline condescending to refer to those who are at least partially locked into spending at low income levels as frugal. A family living on $35,000 or less is at ~125% of poverty level, typically seen as “low income”. Their limited options essentially require optimizing $$ and a frugal life. And the odds their kids have for escaping this life are slim.

A lot of the positive connotations of “being frugal” must appear insensitive to those families.

Are you trolling or on drugs? 

[eyesonthehorizon]

Let’s try reframing this with my example of another thing poor people MUST do but wealthy people can choose to do. Bold underlined text is edited.

…If you’re saying those with wealth can be frugal hardworking by spending below their means giving their all on the clock & advancing on the career ladder, I’m with you.

There’s just a big difference between pinching pennies striving on the job by choice vs. necessity. Calling a poor person shrewd, savvy, financially professionally disciplined, thrifty career-focused…or frugal dedicated to their work? It more than misses the mark
IMO.

See why that sounds silly?

It’s like saying only rich people can take actions as agents, whereas whatever poor people do is automatic & doesn’t “count” as decisionmaking. Which is nonsense.

[Freedomin5]

Let’s try reframing this with my example of another thing poor people MUST do but wealthy people can choose to do. Bold underlined text is edited.

…If you’re saying those with wealth can be frugal hardworking by spending below their means giving their all on the clock & advancing on the career ladder, I’m with you.

There’s just a big difference between pinching pennies striving on the job by choice vs. necessity. Calling a poor person shrewd, savvy, financially professionally disciplined, thrifty career-focused…or frugal dedicated to their work? It more than misses the mark
IMO.

See why that sounds silly?

It’s like saying only rich people can take actions as agents, whereas whatever poor people do is automatic & doesn’t “count” as decisionmaking. Which is nonsense.

Yeah, I'm with @eyesonthehorizon here. I know two people in real life.

Poor Person A: worked hard at a low paying job, took night classes to improve their education, pinched pennies and made wise financial decisions to live within their means.

Poor Person B: decided not to work at all and live off government assistance, sits at home and watches TV or surfs the internet on their phone, spends whatever money they have on new purses/shoes/phone/widgets, complains and demands that other people fund their lifestyle.

Both A and B are/were poor, but I would argue that A is shrewd, savvy, financially disciplined, thrifty, and frugal, while B is not. A is now no longer poor, while B will likely end up homeless unless family steps in to save them.

[Metalcat]

Let’s try reframing this with my example of another thing poor people MUST do but wealthy people can choose to do. Bold underlined text is edited.

…If you’re saying those with wealth can be frugal hardworking by spending below their means giving their all on the clock & advancing on the career ladder, I’m with you.

There’s just a big difference between pinching pennies striving on the job by choice vs. necessity. Calling a poor person shrewd, savvy, financially professionally disciplined, thrifty career-focused…or frugal dedicated to their work? It more than misses the mark
IMO.

See why that sounds silly?

It’s like saying only rich people can take actions as agents, whereas whatever poor people do is automatic & doesn’t “count” as decisionmaking. Which is nonsense.

Yeah, I'm with @eyesonthehorizon here. I know two people in real life.

Poor Person A: worked hard at a low paying job, took night classes to improve their education, pinched pennies and made wise financial decisions to live within their means.

Poor Person B: decided not to work at all and live off government assistance, sits at home and watches TV or surfs the internet on their phone, spends whatever money they have on new purses/shoes/phone/widgets, complains and demands that other people fund their lifestyle.

Both A and B are/were poor, but I would argue that A is shrewd, savvy, financially disciplined, thrifty, and frugal, while B is not. A is now no longer poor, while B will likely end up homeless unless family steps in to save them.

I grew up poor, I've worked with a lot of poor people, I know a lot of poor people, I live in a working class area with a lot of poor people. It's gobsmacking to hear someone say that low income folks can't be frugal, as if they don't have agency to make financial choices, as if low incomes can't be spent more prudently or more wastefully, as if two low income families can't have differences in their quality of life. Statements like that usually come from folks who don't spend a lot of time with low income folks.

FTR, I grew up poor with a very involved father who taught me how to cook delicious ethnic foods with rice and beans, how to creatively use old bread from the bakery that costs pennies, how to absolutely fall in love with the public library and community center, how to volunteer at community events as our main "going out" activity, and most importantly, how to prioritize time in nature. My mom taught me how to refinish furniture that we picked up off the side of the road, how to use a sewing machine, how to recognize high quality tailoring and fabrics at thrift shops, how to design and maximize space in very small homes, and the joy of living with adult roommates when the fit makes sense.

The quality of life someone can have on a very tight budget, not by choice, can be MASSIVELY influenced by their level of frugality and knowledge of how to live well on less.

[TreeLeaf]

Let’s try reframing this with my example of another thing poor people MUST do but wealthy people can choose to do. Bold underlined text is edited.

…If you’re saying those with wealth can be frugal hardworking by spending below their means giving their all on the clock & advancing on the career ladder, I’m with you.

There’s just a big difference between pinching pennies striving on the job by choice vs. necessity. Calling a poor person shrewd, savvy, financially professionally disciplined, thrifty career-focused…or frugal dedicated to their work? It more than misses the mark
IMO.

See why that sounds silly?

It’s like saying only rich people can take actions as agents, whereas whatever poor people do is automatic & doesn’t “count” as decisionmaking. Which is nonsense.

Yeah, I'm with @eyesonthehorizon here. I know two people in real life.

Poor Person A: worked hard at a low paying job, took night classes to improve their education, pinched pennies and made wise financial decisions to live within their means.

Poor Person B: decided not to work at all and live off government assistance, sits at home and watches TV or surfs the internet on their phone, spends whatever money they have on new purses/shoes/phone/widgets, complains and demands that other people fund their lifestyle.

Both A and B are/were poor, but I would argue that A is shrewd, savvy, financially disciplined, thrifty, and frugal, while B is not. A is now no longer poor, while B will likely end up homeless unless family steps in to save them.

I grew up poor, I've worked with a lot of poor people, I know a lot of poor people, I live in a working class area with A LOT of poor people. It's gobsmacking to hear someone say that low income folks can't be frugal. Statements like that usually come from folks who don't spend a lot of time with low income folks.

Yeah - my wife and I both grew up incredibly poor - the kind of poor where people develop food insecurities because there is not always enough food to eat.

Virtually everyone we know is poor. Frugal skills was never a choice - it was a requirement to live. All of the main lessons and reasons to be frugal we learned growing up, not from this forum.

We never called this frugal badassity growing up though. It was normal and we just called it being poor lol. But it was the same thing as being frugal though, because we had to make the dollars stretch if we wanted food and a place to live.

I know a lot of poor people who are way more frugal than the people on this forum. A lot of people here could actually learn some valuable lessons just by hanging out with some poor people.

[Metalcat]

Let’s try reframing this with my example of another thing poor people MUST do but wealthy people can choose to do. Bold underlined text is edited.

…If you’re saying those with wealth can be frugal hardworking by spending below their means giving their all on the clock & advancing on the career ladder, I’m with you.

There’s just a big difference between pinching pennies striving on the job by choice vs. necessity. Calling a poor person shrewd, savvy, financially professionally disciplined, thrifty career-focused…or frugal dedicated to their work? It more than misses the mark
IMO.

See why that sounds silly?

It’s like saying only rich people can take actions as agents, whereas whatever poor people do is automatic & doesn’t “count” as decisionmaking. Which is nonsense.

Yeah, I'm with @eyesonthehorizon here. I know two people in real life.

Poor Person A: worked hard at a low paying job, took night classes to improve their education, pinched pennies and made wise financial decisions to live within their means.

Poor Person B: decided not to work at all and live off government assistance, sits at home and watches TV or surfs the internet on their phone, spends whatever money they have on new purses/shoes/phone/widgets, complains and demands that other people fund their lifestyle.

Both A and B are/were poor, but I would argue that A is shrewd, savvy, financially disciplined, thrifty, and frugal, while B is not. A is now no longer poor, while B will likely end up homeless unless family steps in to save them.

I grew up poor, I've worked with a lot of poor people, I know a lot of poor people, I live in a working class area with A LOT of poor people. It's gobsmacking to hear someone say that low income folks can't be frugal. Statements like that usually come from folks who don't spend a lot of time with low income folks.

Yeah - my wife and I both grew up incredibly poor - the kind of poor where people develop food insecurities because there is not always enough food to eat.

Virtually everyone we know is poor. Frugal skills was never a choice - it was a requirement to live. All of the main lessons and reasons to be frugal we learned growing up, not from this forum.

We never called this frugal badassity growing up though. It was normal and we just called it being poor lol. But it was the same thing as being frugal though, because we had to make the dollars stretch if we wanted food and a place to live.

I know a lot of poor people who are way more frugal than the people on this forum. A lot of people here could actually learn some valuable lessons just by hanging out with some poor people.

This is kind of the opposite of what I was saying.

I'm saying that people who are forced to live on low sums can be incredibly frugal or incredibly wasteful, just like everyone else.

Surely, like me, you knew plenty of poor folks who blew all of their money on cigarettes, going to the bar, and drugs.

My point is that people on very low budgets, not by choice, can also have a massive range of quality of life. My parents happened to be really good at creating a lot of luxury from very little money.

[rosarugosa]

I too get bored spending on things, but a buddy said to me once “You’re very frugal when considering purchases under $10,000”. LOL I think he’s right.

The other thing is I like buying things for others. Thinking about this for my daughter—(and if she doesn’t like it I’ll take it).

https://www.authorclock.com/shop

Well now I want this expensive, not terribly practical, but totally wonderful clock that I don't actually need, and that doesn't feel the least bit frugal.

[TreeLeaf]

Let’s try reframing this with my example of another thing poor people MUST do but wealthy people can choose to do. Bold underlined text is edited.

…If you’re saying those with wealth can be frugal hardworking by spending below their means giving their all on the clock & advancing on the career ladder, I’m with you.

There’s just a big difference between pinching pennies striving on the job by choice vs. necessity. Calling a poor person shrewd, savvy, financially professionally disciplined, thrifty career-focused…or frugal dedicated to their work? It more than misses the mark
IMO.

See why that sounds silly?

It’s like saying only rich people can take actions as agents, whereas whatever poor people do is automatic & doesn’t “count” as decisionmaking. Which is nonsense.

Yeah, I'm with @eyesonthehorizon here. I know two people in real life.

Poor Person A: worked hard at a low paying job, took night classes to improve their education, pinched pennies and made wise financial decisions to live within their means.

Poor Person B: decided not to work at all and live off government assistance, sits at home and watches TV or surfs the internet on their phone, spends whatever money they have on new purses/shoes/phone/widgets, complains and demands that other people fund their lifestyle.

Both A and B are/were poor, but I would argue that A is shrewd, savvy, financially disciplined, thrifty, and frugal, while B is not. A is now no longer poor, while B will likely end up homeless unless family steps in to save them.

I grew up poor, I've worked with a lot of poor people, I know a lot of poor people, I live in a working class area with A LOT of poor people. It's gobsmacking to hear someone say that low income folks can't be frugal. Statements like that usually come from folks who don't spend a lot of time with low income folks.

Yeah - my wife and I both grew up incredibly poor - the kind of poor where people develop food insecurities because there is not always enough food to eat.

Virtually everyone we know is poor. Frugal skills was never a choice - it was a requirement to live. All of the main lessons and reasons to be frugal we learned growing up, not from this forum.

We never called this frugal badassity growing up though. It was normal and we just called it being poor lol. But it was the same thing as being frugal though, because we had to make the dollars stretch if we wanted food and a place to live.

I know a lot of poor people who are way more frugal than the people on this forum. A lot of people here could actually learn some valuable lessons just by hanging out with some poor people.

This is kind of the opposite of what I was saying.

I'm saying that people who are forced to live on low sums can be incredibly frugal or incredibly wasteful, just like everyone else.

Surely, like me, you knew plenty of poor folks who blew all of their money on cigarettes, going to the bar, and drugs.

My point is that people on very low budgets, not by choice, can also have a massive range of quality of life. My parents happened to be really good at creating a lot of luxury from very little money.

Oh - I see what you're saying.

I know plenty of poor folks who never really developed frugal skills also. They are normally the ones who just sort of gave up though, typically turning to drugs and a life of crime and/or using and abusing everyone in their life.

Watching a poor person also never develop financial skills or the ability to think beyond tomorrow was always very sad to watch. Not only were they often uneducated and broke, but they had zero self control. Would just sort of run until they hit rock bottom, then usually wind up in jail for doing some stupid shit while drunk or on drugs. Or they just wound up dying from overdose.

My point is more that a higher percentage of poor people develop frugal skills than higher income folks, because it's often either you learn how to stretch a dollar or you don't eat / lose your trailer, etc. The consequences of failing to develop frugal habits is greater for a low income person than a higher income person.

Ergo - if you want to learn about frugality, and how to live cheaply in a town, it can be useful to go shadow a low income person for a while and see what they eat, where they shop, etc.

Some places have some obscure small stores that always heavily discount their food right before it expires. This actually might be the main place a poor person gets their food from for example. Or they know which thrift stores run deals on certain days, etc. Or they know how to cook a very cheap meal and make it taste good. Etc.

My MIL is an illegal Mexican immigrant. I have learned some things from her about saving money.

[Morning Glory]

I too get bored spending on things, but a buddy said to me once “You’re very frugal when considering purchases under $10,000”. LOL I think he’s right.

The other thing is I like buying things for others. Thinking about this for my daughter—(and if she doesn’t like it I’ll take it).

https://www.authorclock.com/shop

Well now I want this expensive, not terribly practical, but totally wonderful clock that I don't actually need, and that doesn't feel the least bit frugal.

It would be cool to see the same software but on a bigger screen in the lobby of a school or library.

[lhamo]

I too get bored spending on things, but a buddy said to me once “You’re very frugal when considering purchases under $10,000”. LOL I think he’s right.

The other thing is I like buying things for others. Thinking about this for my daughter—(and if she doesn’t like it I’ll take it).

https://www.authorclock.com/shop

I have mentioned this several times across various threads, so maybe people are tired of hearing it, but this seems like a good place to mention again that one of the ways those of us with the tendency to hoard our little green soldiers due to ingrained habits of frugality or even cheapness can try to develop new habits is to think about the effects of using our ample financial resources to support people and services we value.  For me, for example, that has recently meant making the decision to work with two businesses -- an interior designer and a small sustainable building company -- on the upcoming renovation of my new (to me -- it was built in the '50s and needs both structural and design updates) house.  Both come highly recommended by people I know and trust, and they are already working on another project together so I know they can work well together.  It is going to cost me more than trying to hack together the changes I need/want on my own and GC-ing the project myself, but I could not do that and get the work done with the quality I want in the time I have available.  Is it going to cost more this way?  Yes, but I see this as money well spent. I will get a beautiful, functional living space that I hope to stay in until they wheel me out in 30-40 years.  And my little green soldiers will be supporting 2 local businesses (+ all their subs) that I want to see stay around and succeed in my community.

On the other hand, I swung by Goodwill yesterday looking for one of those little multi-clip hanger things you can use to dry socks and other small items.  The only one they had was plastic and dirty and $3 -- I can probably get a brand new one at the dollar store for $1.25.  So I passed on that.  But I DID find something else I needed -- a shower curtain rod in good shape for $7.  I had priced similar new ones at $15-20 at Home Goods, so that was a good deal.  Now I can take showers at my new place and use some water so that at least I get something for the minimum monthly service charge I still have to pay while the house is empty.

Well now I want this expensive, not terribly practical, but totally wonderful clock that I don't actually need, and that doesn't feel the least bit frugal.