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General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: druth on August 04, 2016, 11:38:36 AM

Title: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: druth on August 04, 2016, 11:38:36 AM
I read about companies saying they can't retain talent because nobody is loyal anymore.  I actually was pretty loyal to my company and would have stayed on but I had a recent experience that definitely tainted my view.  I was told I would get a promotion and probably a 10-20% raise, but HR turned it around because I have 2 years 8 months field experience instead of 3 years.  So now I can wait around another year for my promotion or I can just go somewhere else and get probably a 40% raise.

Boyfriend felt he was hired at too low of a title, wanted a higher title and a raise, boss said yes but HR said he needed to wait for some amount of time at the company.  He was only originally looking for a 10-20% raise but instead found a 50% raise.  His original company had a hair on fire emergency when he said he was leaving and offered to go above 50% (when they wouldn't even do 10% before), but he left anyways.

Is it even possible to NOT job hop these days?  Are there any companies that actually value loyalty back?  It seems job hopping isn't a symptom of employee disloyalty, but employer disloyalty.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: bacchi on August 04, 2016, 11:46:50 AM
Changing jobs to get a raise has been a truism for many years (decades?), long before employers were complaining about job loyalty.

It's simply a fact that businesses will try to keep costs low. One way to do this is to not pay employees what they're worth (after the initial wine-and-dine). It's short-term thinking but that's what passes for business strategy.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: neo von retorch on August 04, 2016, 11:48:13 AM
You didn't mention your age, but given that you're talking about 40-50% raises, I will make the assumption that you're relatively early in your careers. And so in your case, it's probably much more likely that you'll get big raises from finding a new employer. As you progress through your career, you may find that the raises available won't be quite so amazing, and the quality of the job may matter more to you (including flexibility, minimal behavioral rules, etc.) So for now, enjoy the fact that you can get big raises from changing jobs, and do a good job, learning all the skills important to career progression along the way.

Prospective employers always ask me about the shorter lengths of employment on my resume, but ultimately, they (mostly) still offer me a position anyway. (I'm probably still underpaid for my area. Someday I'll get that fixed...)
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Chris22 on August 04, 2016, 11:53:07 AM
You didn't mention your age, but given that you're talking about 40-50% raises, I will make the assumption that you're relatively early in your careers. And so in your case, it's probably much more likely that you'll get big raises from finding a new employer. As you progress through your career, you may find that the raises available won't be quite so amazing, and the quality of the job may matter more to you (including flexibility, minimal behavioral rules, etc.) So for now, enjoy the fact that you can get big raises from changing jobs, and do a good job, learning all the skills important to career progression along the way.

Prospective employers always ask me about the shorter lengths of employment on my resume, but ultimately, they (mostly) still offer me a position anyway. (I'm probably still underpaid for my area. Someday I'll get that fixed...)

From a percentage viewpoint, but a 4% raise when you make $100k is the same as a 10% raise when you make $40k. 

I'm a relative job hopper, I'm up or out.  I try not to stay in a role longer than ~2 years.  If I can get myself a promotion, great.  If I can't, I'll find somewhere I can get a substantial (10% minimum) raise for moving companies. 
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: GuitarStv on August 04, 2016, 11:56:30 AM
It's a pain in the ass to change jobs.  You have to do the work on the resume and cover letters, network, interview, land the job, then change your whole commute/schedule.  Employers know this, so they will almost always pay more for someone new than for someone who has worked at the company for many years.  Business is typically run to squeeze every last penny out of the resources that they have . . . not to have a happy workforce.  While they probably exist somewhere, I've never worked at or known anyone who has worked at a place that really demonstrates that loyalty is valued.

TLDR - It's almost always going to be in your best interests to leave for another job.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Guesl982374 on August 04, 2016, 12:01:50 PM
Re: Is job hopping mandatory?

Yes for the reasons you and your boyfriend have recently learned. Try to minimize the number of <=2 year stints as possible to avoid the "job hopper" title.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: druth on August 04, 2016, 12:11:48 PM
You didn't mention your age, but given that you're talking about 40-50% raises, I will make the assumption that you're relatively early in your careers. And so in your case, it's probably much more likely that you'll get big raises from finding a new employer. As you progress through your career, you may find that the raises available won't be quite so amazing

That plus the industry definitely make a difference.  Thank goodness for FIRE, I'll be out before I can even be considered late career anyways.  In an ideal world though, I do like stability and wouldn't have minded spending my 7 years or whatever at the same place.  I like my boss and co-workers, but oh well.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Jack on August 04, 2016, 12:20:55 PM
I job-hopped for other reasons (I double-majored in college and wanted to work at the intersection of the two fields), but the hops came with big raises anyway:

Job 1 (related to major A): $40K
Job 2 (related to major B): $65K
Job 3 (related to both): $80K+ and much better benefits than either of the other two
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: aFrugalFather on August 04, 2016, 12:25:56 PM
A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: GuitarStv on August 04, 2016, 12:29:47 PM
It just occurred to me that the answer to this question might depend on the job field that you're working in.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Altons Bobs on August 04, 2016, 12:33:24 PM
I only worked in corporate America for a little over 10 years, and from what I had seen, you'd get promoted if you did a good job and your superior valued your contribution.  But 9 out of 10 times people get big rates within the same company is because they know how to suck up, it's not that they do a good job.  I'd seen that over and over again.  For the hard working ones who do a good job but refuse to suck up, it's unlikely that you will get big raises unless you job hop.  So needless to say, I was a job hopper, and then I just got tired of the whole corporate America BS and politics and I left and never went back to corporate America.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: druth on August 04, 2016, 12:39:04 PM
A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

That seems intuitively obvious, but I'm not convinced that reflects any real world company except maybe some very small ones.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: druth on August 04, 2016, 12:42:19 PM
For the hard working ones who do a good job but refuse to suck up, it's unlikely that you will get big raises unless you job hop.  So needless to say, I was a job hopper, and then I just got tired of the whole corporate America BS and politics and I left and never went back to corporate America.

This is amusing because the only comments I got in my performance review were pretty much "perfect, we are very happy, you are doing great, but you should spend more time getting to know your coworkers."  Basically got dinged for not going to enough happy hours.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Rubic on August 04, 2016, 12:49:23 PM
Is it even possible to NOT job hop these days?

(Emphasis mine)

I just want to point out that this is not a recent phenomenon.  Thirty years ago I jumped ship from my first job as a college graduate for a 50% pay bump.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on August 04, 2016, 01:25:57 PM
I'm a bit of a job-hopper myself. I have stints after college of 2.5 years, 9 months, 3.5 years, and I'm currently closing in on 2 years with my current employer. Huge pay raises in between job changes are not the norm in my industry (forestry) unless you go from government to corporate work (which I did, and got a 60% raise in doing so) but nobody goes into this industry for the paycheck. Once you're in the corporate world, there's not nearly as much opportunity to job-hop for a pay raise. And if you do get offered a big salary increase, then they're probably offering you a shit job. It's just a small, mature industry, and the cash ain't exactly flowing freely like in finance or technology. I've moved around for better jobs and better locations, but my salary has increased at a steady 3-6% per year, regardless of whether or not I switched companies. So I would say that it does depend on the industry to some extent.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: ysette9 on August 04, 2016, 01:34:54 PM
Seconding what others have said, I imagine it depends on the industry. I'm in aerospace and my husband is in tech; we live in Silicon Valley. That means that he has been working in Silicon Valley companies all his career and I have been physically located in Silicon Valley but in a parallel universe since I am in a different industry. We got similar degrees from the same schools. He has worked at 5 companies during the time I have had 8 different jobs at the same company. We earn within 2% of each other. He has had to hop companies to get promotions/more money/career growth whereas I have performed well and been rewarded internally. I believe that a large part of why I have been able to be successful like this is that I work for a large company that supports job rotations and also has development programs. This is a long way of answering the original question with an "it depends". :)
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: sailinlight on August 04, 2016, 01:39:57 PM
I hopped twice:

My first job after college was at 45k.   I always felt I was lowballed there and only lasted about nine months.
Second job was at 60k.  I also felt I was a bit low-balled and lastdr about six months.
Next job was at 68k.  I have stayed with that company for the last eight years..  It's a medium sized company and I have averaged about seven percent raises in the last eight years.  But it's a good work/life balance and I have had pretty good autonomy while working there.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Fishindude on August 04, 2016, 01:43:21 PM
I agree with aFrugalFather.   A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

People stay put at the places that are well run, and well run businesses generally pay better than their competitors so there is no need to hop.
Unfortunately, there are probably more poorly run businesses than well run businesses.   People seeking employment should probably put more effort into learning about their potential employer and actively seek out and try to go to work for the best one.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Chris22 on August 04, 2016, 01:46:25 PM
A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

It almost never works out that way.  First off, only a portion of your talent will turn over unless you're a terrible employer; most employees are too lazy or too comfortable or just can't be bothered to look and move.  Second, it is very hard to justify YoY rising cost of talent beyond an inflationary level.  OTOH, it is easy to justify large amounts of money spent on "one time" recruiting expenses to fill "critical roles".  Third, for most people, you don't really deserve significantly more money just for doing the same thing UNLESS that same thing is valuable and hard to replace.  Companies simply don't incent people to stay in one role, often to the company's detriment in my opinion, but it doesn't work that way.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Chris22 on August 04, 2016, 01:49:04 PM
I agree with aFrugalFather.   A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

People stay put at the places that are well run, and well run businesses generally pay better than their competitors so there is no need to hop.
Unfortunately, there are probably more poorly run businesses than well run businesses.   People seeking employment should probably put more effort into learning about their potential employer and actively seek out and try to go to work for the best one.

Nah, like I said above, most businesses are structured so the only way to make significantly more money is to get promoted into expanding roles (outside of commission based stuff obviously).  Even the most well run company is not likely to give significant merit raises UNLESS the skillset of those people is such that they could get even more outside the firm.  Is it possible people are happy with a stagnant or very slow-growing wage at a well-run company?  Yes.  But that's different than the company being able to match the pay of someone moving frequently.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Prairie Stash on August 04, 2016, 01:59:16 PM
I read about companies saying they can't retain talent because nobody is loyal anymore. 

Is it even possible to NOT job hop these days?  Are there any companies that actually value loyalty back?  It seems job hopping isn't a symptom of employee disloyalty, but employer disloyalty.
Loyalty is a two way street. Will the company you work for lay you off during tight times? My company will lay me off as soon as the numbers deem it necessary, so long and good luck.

Always remember, you're just employee #55 on a spreadsheet behind the closed doors, few companies see you any other way. Its not a well run/poorly run scenario, its math on a spreadsheet.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: fattest_foot on August 04, 2016, 02:01:38 PM
A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

That seems intuitively obvious, but I'm not convinced that reflects any real world company except maybe some very small ones.

I'd say just reading the MMM forums for a while makes this rather obvious (maybe the FU money thread?). There have been a number of stories where a person leaves because they think they deserve a certain salary, and their replacement gets paid what their asking salary had been. That doesn't make much business sense.

Chris22 above also brings up a good point. Companies become hamstrung by their own policy. You can't go giving out 10% raises; that's just against policy. But hiring someone on for the same role, at that rate? Sure thing!
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Chris22 on August 04, 2016, 02:08:30 PM
I read about companies saying they can't retain talent because nobody is loyal anymore. 

Is it even possible to NOT job hop these days?  Are there any companies that actually value loyalty back?  It seems job hopping isn't a symptom of employee disloyalty, but employer disloyalty.
Loyalty is a two way street. Will the company you work for lay you off during tight times? My company will lay me off as soon as the numbers deem it necessary, so long and good luck.

Always remember, you're just employee #55 on a spreadsheet behind the closed doors, few companies see you any other way. Its not a well run/poorly run scenario, its math on a spreadsheet.

I'm the guy who used to run the layoff program at a major company you've heard of.  You're not even Employee #5.  You're placed in several buckets based on various metrics.  A typical restructuring package looks like:

"Number of People: 52
Departments: IT, Finance, Engineering, Marketing
Total Severance: $2.4M
Age groups: Under 35: 19% 35-55: 63% 55+: 18%
Seniority: <2 years: 23% 2-10 years: 42% 10-20 years: 33% 20+: 2%
Rating: Top: 4%  Middle: 57%  Bottom:  39%
Employee Band: Executive: 3%, Professional: 37%, Hourly: 60%"

That's it.  There's backup if they need it, but the execs never do.  They just need to make sure they're capturing a wide enough swath of whatever (mostly age) to avoid wrongful termination suits.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: gggggg on August 05, 2016, 03:56:03 AM
I'm personally not a hopper. I'm 41, and have only ever had 3 jobs in my life, including teenage jobs. With what I do now, you can't hop and make progress; you must show you're a long-timer to move up. Every career field is different however.

Also, I think in order to move up in a current organization, you need to have a skill(s) that the boss values, and have good chemistry with management. I was just promoted, and despite others having advanced degrees over me, and are actually better employees than me, I got the job over them because I actually get along with the boss, whereas they are standoffish to management.  So yeah, politics plays a big part.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: MMMarbleheader on August 05, 2016, 05:22:19 AM
I hopped twice and landed at a company with a very different corporate culture than i am used to (in a good way).

This company has only started hiring experienced hires 10 years ago. Before that you had to start as a co-op! or you were not getting in the door. No on left, everyone promoted from within. My job wasn't even posted, it was an internal referral.

Things have changed in the world in the past 110 years, but mainly the culture is the same. Our CEO, SVP, GM, etc. all started as co-ops and this is a company with 5k+ employees.

They are structured much like the federal government with levels, pay grades, etc. so aside from obvious high performers, everyone is with $10k of each other depending on your level. It has been really easy planning for FIRE knowing the salary increases that go with each level.

Before I was a big proponent of job hopping but if i was hired here after graduation from college I doubt I would ever think about leaving. It does help that they are at the top of their industry so the projects you will be working on at any other employer would be a letdown.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: mak1277 on August 05, 2016, 09:11:56 AM
I've found that most people have an over-inflated sense of their own abilities and value (myself included).  It's impossible that the lack of promotions is because the person isn't a strong performer, right?
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on August 05, 2016, 09:24:48 AM
I've found that most people have an over-inflated sense of their own abilities and value (myself included).  It's impossible that the lack of promotions is because the person isn't a strong performer, right?

Haha, I'd say this response is on-the-mark. But I also agree with Chris22 that companies can (and do) get away with paying people less than market value once they're within an organization, because most people are too lazy/comfortable/risk-averse to test the waters elsewhere.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Schaefer Light on August 05, 2016, 10:18:16 AM
The thing that I hate the most is when a company won't give a deserving, high-performing employee a raise until they have another job offer.  By then, it may be too late to keep the employee.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Playing with Fire UK on August 05, 2016, 10:46:49 AM
A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

That seems intuitively obvious, but I'm not convinced that reflects any real world company except maybe some very small ones.

I'd say just reading the MMM forums for a while makes this rather obvious (maybe the FU money thread?). There have been a number of stories where a person leaves because they think they deserve a certain salary, and their replacement gets paid what their asking salary had been. That doesn't make much business sense.

Chris22 above also brings up a good point. Companies become hamstrung by their own policy. You can't go giving out 10% raises; that's just against policy. But hiring someone on for the same role, at that rate? Sure thing!

Yep, assuming that a company run by humans will behave logically is, in itself, illogical.

By the same logic, it would be illogical for most people to spend like crazy on pay day when they know they ran out of money last month and need to pay their credit card. So therefore they do not do it, and the AMWOSAC has no one to mock.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Aelias on August 05, 2016, 11:51:00 AM
I read about companies saying they can't retain talent because nobody is loyal anymore. 

Is it even possible to NOT job hop these days?  Are there any companies that actually value loyalty back?  It seems job hopping isn't a symptom of employee disloyalty, but employer disloyalty.
Loyalty is a two way street. Will the company you work for lay you off during tight times? My company will lay me off as soon as the numbers deem it necessary, so long and good luck.

Always remember, you're just employee #55 on a spreadsheet behind the closed doors, few companies see you any other way. Its not a well run/poorly run scenario, its math on a spreadsheet.

YUP.  Always remember--it makes sense to be loyal to PEOPLE, but not to COMPANIES.  Because loyalty is a human trait, and, in the overwhelming number of cases, companies will not be loyal to employees. Even good employees, even employees who have been around forever.  As soon as you're no longer an asset to them, you will be cut.  Everyone is replaceable. They won't think twice.

So, if you get a better offer, hop.  Try to end things on a positive note with the people you actually work with, by giving enough notice and finishing up projects.  But don't stick around in a job hoping that your loyalty will be rewarded.  It just doesn't work that way.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: dreams_and_discoveries on August 09, 2016, 10:43:31 AM
If you are a high performer in a career type job, I'd say it's mandatory.

How can you lead an organisation, when you've never seen how other places work, to appreciate both the upsides and challenges.

I've stayed with one company for 7 years, but that was different 5 jobs (some sideways moves, some promotions).





Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on August 09, 2016, 11:07:49 AM
Boyfriend felt he was hired at too low of a title, wanted a higher title and a raise, boss said yes but HR said he needed to wait for some amount of time at the company.

This is basically me, except HR said no, "other duties as assigned." Never mind that I'm doing work for which they were paying a freelancer $15k/week.

My favorite thing is when I get an email announcing half the people in another department getting "manager" promotions, even though they don't have any people reporting to them.

Yes, I'm bitter. I've been looking for two or three years, but staff jobs in my world are somewhat scarce. Tomorrow and the next day I'm taking vacation days to do my first freelance job in a LONG time. It feels kind of good.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Chris22 on August 09, 2016, 12:22:07 PM
Boyfriend felt he was hired at too low of a title, wanted a higher title and a raise, boss said yes but HR said he needed to wait for some amount of time at the company.

This is basically me, except HR said no, "other duties as assigned." Never mind that I'm doing work for which they were paying a freelancer $15k/week.

My favorite thing is when I get an email announcing half the people in another department getting "manager" promotions, even though they don't have any people reporting to them.

Yes, I'm bitter. I've been looking for two or three years, but staff jobs in my world are somewhat scarce. Tomorrow and the next day I'm taking vacation days to do my first freelance job in a LONG time. It feels kind of good.

You can manage things, not just people.  For my company, we have a lot of managers who have no headcount but earn the manager title because they manage a P&L. 
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: dividendman on August 09, 2016, 12:29:17 PM
Yes it is mandatory. I'm going to quote myself from another thread on job hopping that addresses the issues raised above:


Being a mid-upper management type at a mega Corp: it's because they have crunched the numbers. People hate change, even most people who are otherwise excellent at their jobs hate change. Corporate overlords are banking on this to consistently screw their good long term employees out of money until they actually threaten to quit. They will however hire in new, unknown quantity,  workers at the market rate because that's the only way they can get them.

An old boss gave me the best advice of my career: you should set aside a couple of months every year or 18 months to interview and negotiate offers no matter how much you like your current gig. This will 1)  ensure you know what the market rate is so you can either take another job or negotiate a higher pay at the current one, 2) let you know what opportunities are out there, what skills are in demand, and expose you to opportunities you may not have considered, and 3) keep your interviewing skills, negotiating skills and learning new skills at your current job that will help you get future jobs in the best shape.

I've gone from a salary of 55k 9 years ago to over 300k total compensation today in no small part due to the above. I think I'm very good at what I do,  but I see other talented folks letting inertia handicap their earning potential.

Another bonus of having multiple previous places of employment is the larger network you'll have - so, TL;DR: job hop away!!
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on August 09, 2016, 12:34:26 PM
You can manage things, not just people.  For my company, we have a lot of managers who have no headcount but earn the manager title because they manage a P&L.

I manage plenty of things (including a massive, enterprise-priority project), but they're not calling me "manager."
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Chris22 on August 09, 2016, 01:34:20 PM
You can manage things, not just people.  For my company, we have a lot of managers who have no headcount but earn the manager title because they manage a P&L.

I manage plenty of things (including a massive, enterprise-priority project), but they're not calling me "manager."

Not all people who manage things are called manager, but generally, everyone who is a manager manages things. 
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Schaefer Light on August 10, 2016, 08:45:20 AM
Boyfriend felt he was hired at too low of a title, wanted a higher title and a raise, boss said yes but HR said he needed to wait for some amount of time at the company.

This is basically me, except HR said no, "other duties as assigned." Never mind that I'm doing work for which they were paying a freelancer $15k/week.

My favorite thing is when I get an email announcing half the people in another department getting "manager" promotions, even though they don't have any people reporting to them.

Yes, I'm bitter. I've been looking for two or three years, but staff jobs in my world are somewhat scarce. Tomorrow and the next day I'm taking vacation days to do my first freelance job in a LONG time. It feels kind of good.
I think that usually happens when it's the only way to give those people a raise within a company's ridiculous pay structure.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Northwestie on August 10, 2016, 10:06:30 AM
I guess it depends on your field and the available employers where you wish to live.  Personally I've managed ok staying put - job duration has been 3.5 yrs, 3.5. 10, 12, and now 3 yr so far and will be reducing hours in two years.    The two shorter early stints was an entry job and then a move from east to west coast.   I think I started at $5/hr with a Masters and am into 6 figures now.  But I'm not in a high paying tech field -- let's say the ecology field is a bit different.

So I would likely just spend some time talking with your peers in the industry.  You can be straight up with the boss and say you think you deserve more and here's why.  No compliance - then likely time to shop around and maybe they counter your offer.  But long term - you may want to think about more than money and why you like or don't like to work at a place.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Slee_stack on August 10, 2016, 11:04:05 AM
I'm fairly jaded.  My current company has virtually zero loyalty to employees.

I've watched many people get walked out at random times, usually with the company shooting itself in the foot as a result.

Even if someone is under-performing, the concept of the right timing is completely foreign here.

I stick around because its relatively convenient, low stress, the work is semi interesting, and I get (overall) decent pay with little to no OT.  I have ZERO loyalty in return though.  I would be very much at peace if my last day was today.

I've never really seen high raises from within, in the industries I've worked (automotive, electronics, aerospace).  I've certainly experienced plenty of lip service, but pretty poor follow thru.

I'm supposedly a 'top performer' but I haven't been promoted in 6 years.  Hmm.  What did my top performer raise get me this year?  3.5%.  Hoo doggies!  Average folks got 2%  Below average, 0%.

Meanwhile if you are at the right location, and/or the right age and sex, upper management can't trip over themselves quickly enough to promote or create a whole new special position for you.  Usually inside of 1- 2 years. 

Its scary how vapid some of the folks I've seen that have been promoted.  Seriously scary.  Deer in the headlights type of performance.  They can't answer hard questions.  They don't understand anything remotely technical, even if dumbed down.  It sure isn't a knack for people management skills either.  I don't know what it is unless there's quota stuff going on.  Its really bizarro world.

I'm in a complete dead-end, but I'm at or around the cusp of FI, so I put up with the silliness....and minimize my stress and any extra 'free' effort.  Eff companies.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: aschmidt2930 on August 10, 2016, 11:09:13 AM
I read about companies saying they can't retain talent because nobody is loyal anymore.  I actually was pretty loyal to my company and would have stayed on but I had a recent experience that definitely tainted my view.  I was told I would get a promotion and probably a 10-20% raise, but HR turned it around because I have 2 years 8 months field experience instead of 3 years.  So now I can wait around another year for my promotion or I can just go somewhere else and get probably a 40% raise.

Boyfriend felt he was hired at too low of a title, wanted a higher title and a raise, boss said yes but HR said he needed to wait for some amount of time at the company.  He was only originally looking for a 10-20% raise but instead found a 50% raise.  His original company had a hair on fire emergency when he said he was leaving and offered to go above 50% (when they wouldn't even do 10% before), but he left anyways.

Is it even possible to NOT job hop these days?  Are there any companies that actually value loyalty back?  It seems job hopping isn't a symptom of employee disloyalty, but employer disloyalty.

I suppose it's possible, but unlikely/rare.  Unfortunately, the situations you described seem to play out time and time again, with the same basic story.  It's a corporate epidemic of being penny wise and pound foolish. If I were you, I'd go get what I'm worth now.  There's no guarantees that raise will even come next year, a bad quarter and the company can go into a raise freeze overnight.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Helvegen on August 10, 2016, 11:12:06 AM
My workplace is a revolving door. Whenever people want more money, they know better than to try and whine to management for it. Instead they leave for a good pay raise for 1-5 years and then when their new employer doesn't raise up with time, come back here for another massive pay increase.

I already get paid top dollar for what I do, so it is unlikely I would gain anything from leaving, so I don't. However, for many it is well worth it and in this job market, quite a few are aggressively headhunted for instead of it just being that the employee was actively looking alone. That was the case for my husband and quite a few others we know.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: JLee on August 10, 2016, 11:44:36 AM
A well run company will pay you a market rate salary or have other benefits.  The cost to find new talent versus keeping good employees is quite substantial.

It almost never works out that way.  First off, only a portion of your talent will turn over unless you're a terrible employer; most employees are too lazy or too comfortable or just can't be bothered to look and move.  Second, it is very hard to justify YoY rising cost of talent beyond an inflationary level.  OTOH, it is easy to justify large amounts of money spent on "one time" recruiting expenses to fill "critical roles".  Third, for most people, you don't really deserve significantly more money just for doing the same thing UNLESS that same thing is valuable and hard to replace.  Companies simply don't incent people to stay in one role, often to the company's detriment in my opinion, but it doesn't work that way.
It extends past doing the same thing, though.  At my last employer, I was promoted five times over three years and still wound up making 6% less than a previous outside hire was brought in at years previously. Same title, same role.

Maybe there are companies who promote internal people and pay them the same as a new hire for the same job, but I haven't worked for one.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Tjat on August 10, 2016, 12:37:47 PM
No, but it can help if you're stuck in a dead end role or dead end company.

If one anecdotal case heard on the internet is enough to refute the hypothesis that job hopping is "mandatory".... I found a good company that I like, had a relatively strong starting salary coming out of undergrad, and 9 years later at the same company my income has increased 400%. In my case, is appears that job hopping was not mandatory.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Chris22 on August 10, 2016, 01:09:03 PM
No, but it can help if you're stuck in a dead end role or dead end company.

If one anecdotal case heard on the internet is enough to refute the hypothesis that job hopping is "mandatory".... I found a good company that I like, had a relatively strong starting salary coming out of undergrad, and 9 years later at the same company my income has increased 400%. In my case, is appears that job hopping was not mandatory.

The flip side is, you can't know what your salary would be now if you had job hopped.  It could be 600%.  Or it could be 200%. 
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: MMMarbleheader on August 10, 2016, 01:25:53 PM
I think alot of  it has to do with how the company makes money off of you. If you are just cost, I can see why they would try to get a deal off of you.

Other industries like law and consulting, who may bill out at a W2 *multiplier, benefit in some ways to have a work force that is being paid market rates because they are making more money the more you get paid, assuming it does not make them un-competitive when getting clients.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: MisterTwoForty on August 10, 2016, 01:38:29 PM
To grab a decent sized raise, switching companies seems to be the best way to get about it.  The largest raise I have had without a promotion in my 10 years of corporate life has been 5.5%.  I have nearly doubled my salary in one move, and had a 40% increase in another.  I'd say it's worth looking at new opportunities if you get to a point in your current role that your pay starts to stagnate. 
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Maenad on August 10, 2016, 04:55:45 PM
On the flip side, DH and I have seen engineers who are Career Company Cogs, 20-25 years with the same company. When they get laid off they have a really hard time finding another job, because they don't know how to adapt to how things are done at another company. In our world it's 3-5 years per job, to show that you learned things, developed new skills, and "added value". Anything more than 10 years at a company and the interviewers will ask a lot of probing questions to see how stuck in a rut you are.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Tjat on August 10, 2016, 07:05:05 PM
No, but it can help if you're stuck in a dead end role or dead end company.

If one anecdotal case heard on the internet is enough to refute the hypothesis that job hopping is "mandatory".... I found a good company that I like, had a relatively strong starting salary coming out of undergrad, and 9 years later at the same company my income has increased 400%. In my case, is appears that job hopping was not mandatory.

The flip side is, you can't know what your salary would be now if you had job hopped.  It could be 600%.  Or it could be 200%.

Right, you'll never know if the choice you made is optimal in some situations. I interpreted "is job hopping mandatory" to mean is it required to raise yourself to a suitably lucrative compensation. There's no way of knowing (or point in speculating) if it's maximized.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: TheAnonOne on August 11, 2016, 08:45:38 AM
Job hopping is literally the reason I can even contemplate FIRE.

My first software job was around $15/hour. I am 7 years into my career making $80/hour(W2) or around $170,000 + OT (made a bit over 200k last year)

I have only received 1 raise in that time from a singular company, and it was when I switched contracts under that firm.


It is hard, you may burn a few bridges (try not to...) but it is worth it. The main reason is that during a job hop you can nab promotions. AKA: Jump from JR. to Mid or from Mid to Sr. Probably YEARS before your current employer will do it for you.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Greenroller on August 11, 2016, 09:01:39 AM
It seems job hopping isn't a symptom of employee disloyalty, but employer disloyalty.

^^^. I couldn't agree more. This 100%
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: druth on August 11, 2016, 01:17:12 PM
I'm supposedly a 'top performer' but I haven't been promoted in 6 years.  Hmm.  What did my top performer raise get me this year?  3.5%.  Hoo doggies!  Average folks got 2%  Below average, 0%.

Oh yeah, I got one of those this year also.  My boss told me, literally, that I should be "very proud," of my 3.3% raise.  OH BOY.  Same as you were saying, average is 2%.  Similarly my bonus was 5.6% instead of 5%.  Dang, $330?!  That's sure going to make me okay with not getting a promotion! Oh, wait...
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Chris22 on August 11, 2016, 01:27:28 PM
I'm supposedly a 'top performer' but I haven't been promoted in 6 years.  Hmm.  What did my top performer raise get me this year?  3.5%.  Hoo doggies!  Average folks got 2%  Below average, 0%.

Oh yeah, I got one of those this year also.  My boss told me, literally, that I should be "very proud," of my 3.3% raise.  OH BOY.  Same as you were saying, average is 2%.  Similarly my bonus was 5.6% instead of 5%.  Dang, $330?!  That's sure going to make me okay with not getting a promotion! Oh, wait...

I was at a dinner one night with an older gentleman, relatively senior business guy, and he and I were talking about "kids these days" (since I'm a millennial).  He says to me "I can't even get these kids to go in and give me a good paragraph or two in the performance review, they write like one line!  Don't they know it affects their salary?  They're in such a hurry to just go home!"  I said to him, well, how does it affect their salary?  He says "It is the difference between a good raise and a bad one!"  Asking about the spread between good and bad "Good raises are at least .5% more than bad one, maybe even 1% more!"  I pointed out that for someone making $50k a year, that's a difference of $250/500, and yeah, no wonder they don't give a shit.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: dividendman on August 11, 2016, 02:05:49 PM
Performance reviews are the biggest nonsense work in any company.

Not only what Chris22 has said above,  in that a "good" rating gives only a bit more than "average" but the review itself has no bearing on it but also: The boss has made up their mind before the performance review/feedback and then justifies whatever they do after the fact in the "review". An easy way to prove this is to ask when the ratings are in compared to when people are asked to do evaluations.

Self reviews are totally useless in that they have no bearing on the review outcome whatsoever, in my experience.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: GuitarStv on August 12, 2016, 06:35:33 AM
Performance reviews are the biggest nonsense work in any company.

They are a tremendous waste of time, but I'd argue that there is a bigger one:

Employee training plans

Keeping our employees trained in new technologies and up to date on best programming practices is very important to my employer.  Is says so right in our 'core values'.  So, every year we spend about 8 - 10 hours developing training plans for each employee so that a path for learning new materials and developing new skills is available for the year.

In the past five years I've spent 40 - 50 hrs of time developing an employee training plan with my supervisor.  I've been granted 0 hours of training during those five years for various reasons.  :S
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Aelias on August 12, 2016, 07:46:19 AM

I was at a dinner one night with an older gentleman, relatively senior business guy, and he and I were talking about "kids these days" (since I'm a millennial).  He says to me "I can't even get these kids to go in and give me a good paragraph or two in the performance review, they write like one line!  Don't they know it affects their salary?  They're in such a hurry to just go home!"  I said to him, well, how does it affect their salary?  He says "It is the difference between a good raise and a bad one!"  Asking about the spread between good and bad "Good raises are at least .5% more than bad one, maybe even 1% more!"  I pointed out that for someone making $50k a year, that's a difference of $250/500, and yeah, no wonder they don't give a shit.

So much this.  Why do employers have such a hard time understanding incentives?

My company went through a big rebranding effort this year, and made a point of emphasizing that they want to be a "destination" for the top talent in the industry.  And, yet they pay below market comp.  Let's see--you want top talent, but you want to pay them like they're middling-at-best talent.  Are you familiar with the old robot saying, "Does not compute"? 

It's possible that the pay is better for those at the top--I have no information on that.  But I've seen MANY folks rise to the middle and then leave for other opportunities.  Bottom line--their stated goals do not match up with their actions.  Either retaining top talent is not actually a goal, or they think employees are too stupid/lazy/risk averse to find a better opportunity.  Either way, this does not say good things about the company. 
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Spitfire on August 12, 2016, 08:23:23 AM
Job hopping is usually the fastest way to more money, yes. There are some companies that have a lot of upward mobility and reward high performers, but that seems to be the exception. I do have a couple of friends back in MA that have been with their company for a long time and have gotten many good raises and promotions. I suppose it is possible that they could have gotten even more by jumping around.

It's unfortunate that companies will pay more to bring someone in than to just promote their own people, but this seems to be the case most of the time. For a hard worker, hopping usually works out for the best. Just be aware of 401k match vesting or stock, etc. when you decide if the next job is worth a jump. It might be worth sticking around for an extra year in some cases.   

I did job hop once, but it was because I hated my job and the hours. I've been at my current employer for 7 years. I'm basically Peter Gibbons. I probably do about 8 hours of actual work a week, even though I am sitting here for 40.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: cerat0n1a on August 12, 2016, 09:11:25 AM
I work for a company that has "golden handcuffs" for all employees. Essentially we get paid about the industry average wage but on top of that an additional, significant part of our overall compensation package each year is paid out in the 4 following years, if you're still there. So in 2016, I collected a quarter of that money from 2012 plus a quarter from 2013, 2014 & 2015. Not many people leave voluntarily. The company has gone from being a privately held start-up with a few dozen employees to being worth ~ $30 billion, mostly by organic growth rather than acquisition, in less than 20 years. So I think that's been a succesful policy.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: NoStacheOhio on August 12, 2016, 10:01:56 AM
Just had my mid-year performance review, and in trying to discuss avenues for possible increases/promotions, my boss kept going back to how good my raises were because of the percentage. Finally, I just said something along the lines of, "that's great, but when you're starting low, percentages matter less."
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Slee_stack on August 12, 2016, 10:12:53 AM
I'm supposedly a 'top performer' but I haven't been promoted in 6 years.  Hmm.  What did my top performer raise get me this year?  3.5%.  Hoo doggies!  Average folks got 2%  Below average, 0%.

Oh yeah, I got one of those this year also.  My boss told me, literally, that I should be "very proud," of my 3.3% raise.  OH BOY.  Same as you were saying, average is 2%.  Similarly my bonus was 5.6% instead of 5%.  Dang, $330?!  That's sure going to make me okay with not getting a promotion! Oh, wait...
I did get a bonus this year too. My boss made special note of how rare bonuses are here and how special I should feel for getting one.  (Indeed, I've only received them the last 3 years).

Total bonus?   2%....

You can't make this stuff more pathetic.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: yuka on August 12, 2016, 10:40:01 AM

YUP.  Always remember--it makes sense to be loyal to PEOPLE, but not to COMPANIES.  Because loyalty is a human trait, and, in the overwhelming number of cases, companies will not be loyal to employees. Even good employees, even employees who have been around forever.  As soon as you're no longer an asset to them, you will be cut.  Everyone is replaceable. They won't think twice.


It actually seems to me like this is the biggest danger in not promoting good people. Sometimes they'll move to their new job, and then slowly migrate all the high-functioning members of their old team to the new place. At least, I've seen it a couple times.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: RangerOne on August 12, 2016, 01:14:52 PM
The biggest difference for the current generation is the lack of a pension. This was really the only long term reward for racking on decades with the same company without much advancement. Without pensions there is very little reason to stick it out for any length of time at one company if another offers a better package.

As others have mentioned some companies offer things like RSU's and other perks that usually have a vesting period, or offer signing bonus the are voided if you don't stick around for X amount of years.

Beyond that its a rat race to see who can offer you:
-The best work
-the most opportunity(this can include lateral moves, specilization and ladder climbing)
-the best coworkers and managers
-the best management style
-the most money/benefits

It is always good to at least explore other job opportunities periodically because it is really the only way you can gauge how well you are being treated on all of the above. Then at least you can decide if you are missing out on an opportunity or if you are truly happy where you are.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: moof on August 12, 2016, 02:30:09 PM
Yes.

Typical raises are 0-5% staying put (only a couple examples closer to 10% in 20 years).

Typical gains from a new job:
24%
5% (right after dot com bust)
14%
18%

If you have some FU money in the bank, consider sharing with your manager that you like the work, but are interviewing to find better pay.  Best case is they match, or get in a bidding war for you.  Worst case is they can you or don't match and you end up taking the new job anyway.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: druth on August 12, 2016, 08:10:43 PM
If you have some FU money in the bank, consider sharing with your manager that you like the work, but are interviewing to find better pay.  Best case is they match, or get in a bidding war for you.  Worst case is they can you or don't match and you end up taking the new job anyway.

I do have FU money, but I'm thinking I'll just straight up resign (not just over this) and take a couple months off while I find something new.  High demand job, and I have a couple side gigs, so I'm not too concerned.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: moof on August 12, 2016, 08:18:59 PM
If you are at that point, consider lining up the new gig and get a start date that gets you a month off.  You can explain that you want to show up refreshed and it won't be a big deal.  You can also have an open discussion with your current manager and make it clear you need more money or changes to work to be happy, threat of departure done right can knock down a lot of barriers.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: steviesterno on August 14, 2016, 08:52:32 AM
I'm at a company that is trying to be the best in the business. that's the mission.

But over the last few years we've gone from merit based raises to flat 3% no matter what to none. Christmas token gifts of like $100 to nothing. I just found out we're losing a week we used to be closed at christmas, and I don't think being compensated. Time off was one of the best perks, but we've lost 2 weeks vacation a year since I got there.

I do the most on my team, and have launched a bunch of new and amazing initiatives, and have been asked to speak internationally. I asked my boss about the possibility of a raise (since I was "promoted" a year ago) and he straight up told me he would but the company doesn't offer raises anymore.

So I'm currently getting the same incentives to stay as the worst people on the team. so why should I try any more? This is setting me up to start looking elsewhere, or at least stop going above and beyond in any capacity. if it's never going to amount to anything, why bother?

though this did change my desire for FU money eventually to lets not spend a nickel and save up to have it within a year.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: druth on August 14, 2016, 02:06:15 PM
I'm at a company that is trying to be the best in the business. that's the mission.

But over the last few years we've gone from merit based raises to flat 3% no matter what to none. Christmas token gifts of like $100 to nothing. I just found out we're losing a week we used to be closed at christmas, and I don't think being compensated. Time off was one of the best perks, but we've lost 2 weeks vacation a year since I got there.

I do the most on my team, and have launched a bunch of new and amazing initiatives, and have been asked to speak internationally. I asked my boss about the possibility of a raise (since I was "promoted" a year ago) and he straight up told me he would but the company doesn't offer raises anymore.

So I'm currently getting the same incentives to stay as the worst people on the team. so why should I try any more? This is setting me up to start looking elsewhere, or at least stop going above and beyond in any capacity. if it's never going to amount to anything, why bother?

though this did change my desire for FU money eventually to lets not spend a nickel and save up to have it within a year.

Losing the PTO would have been the breaking point for me.  I can deal with having less money, but not less time.  Sounds like you are a prime candidate to start looking elsewhere.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Goldy on August 14, 2016, 07:57:08 PM
I don't think it is mandatory but greatly depends on your field.  I have been in this career for over 10 years (my only job) and have amassed 1.2m by age 32.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: caracarn on August 15, 2016, 03:27:15 PM
This is an intriguing topic but I would say all the responses only analyze this at the superficial first ten years of a career level.  Now granted this is an MMM forum where the entire "career" of someone who can do everything the "right" way and save a substantial portion of their income and FIRE in 9 years of less, so I get that.  However, at some point nothing will help you get an increase, job hopping or staying, because you've maxed out the real pay you can get for that skill set.  Talking in percentages is just misleading.  I once got a 33% raise staying at my current company.  Is it more impressive if that happened when I was already making $75K (as I was), or if I was making $30K?  I think everyone agrees that the former is more difficult because that percentage is many more real dollars to the company budget.  As a manager looking to hire people I have developers who are making $100K thinking they can ask for 20% more because it is not worth it for them to switch jobs for less, however for the skill set they have (about 5 years of experience) they are really maxed out at what any reasonable employer will pay them.  It does not compute that the reason they have been looking for this new job for a year and been unsuccessful is because they have hit the ceiling of the earning power at this point. 

As a manager I also will not go to HR to make the case from someone who has shown that they are simply going to bolt when they do not get a 10% raise.  Like it or not the reality is it is not sustainable to give 10-20% raises to internal employees when profit is not rising at that same pace.  If we did you'd all go from making 100% of your salary to making 0% when the company shut down due to mismanagement.  Not sure how that serves anyone.  I get the need to get paid what you think you are worth, and it seems all the posters feel they are not there yet, but this entire discussion hinges on the fact that at some point the gravy train of job hopping stops and you need to get that you are making a very good wage and be satisfied. 

My personal experience was that most of my increases were not from job hopping.  Only my first increase worked that way.  I have been sitting at "enough" for over a decade but yet got increases well above the 3%-6% at most employers for various reasons even after that.  Being satisfied and realizing you are fairly compensated is a key view to have and one that I do see is lacking in many, many people I interview or who report to me.  I think looking for a manager who know what you are worth is key to feeling valued.  I fought, and fought hard, and usually won for good employees that I felt were underpaid.  I got a 40% increase for my help desk person a few years back and several double digit raises for a key programmer.  Trying to do that without a manager to push for you, is nearly impossible. 
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: JLee on August 15, 2016, 03:44:26 PM
This is an intriguing topic but I would say all the responses only analyze this at the superficial first ten years of a career level.  Now granted this is an MMM forum where the entire "career" of someone who can do everything the "right" way and save a substantial portion of their income and FIRE in 9 years of less, so I get that.  However, at some point nothing will help you get an increase, job hopping or staying, because you've maxed out the real pay you can get for that skill set.  Talking in percentages is just misleading.  I once got a 33% raise staying at my current company.  Is it more impressive if that happened when I was already making $75K (as I was), or if I was making $30K?  I think everyone agrees that the former is more difficult because that percentage is many more real dollars to the company budget.  As a manager looking to hire people I have developers who are making $100K thinking they can ask for 20% more because it is not worth it for them to switch jobs for less, however for the skill set they have (about 5 years of experience) they are really maxed out at what any reasonable employer will pay them.  It does not compute that the reason they have been looking for this new job for a year and been unsuccessful is because they have hit the ceiling of the earning power at this point. 

As a manager I also will not go to HR to make the case from someone who has shown that they are simply going to bolt when they do not get a 10% raise.  Like it or not the reality is it is not sustainable to give 10-20% raises to internal employees when profit is not rising at that same pace.  If we did you'd all go from making 100% of your salary to making 0% when the company shut down due to mismanagement.  Not sure how that serves anyone.  I get the need to get paid what you think you are worth, and it seems all the posters feel they are not there yet, but this entire discussion hinges on the fact that at some point the gravy train of job hopping stops and you need to get that you are making a very good wage and be satisfied. 

My personal experience was that most of my increases were not from job hopping.  Only my first increase worked that way.  I have been sitting at "enough" for over a decade but yet got increases well above the 3%-6% at most employers for various reasons even after that.  Being satisfied and realizing you are fairly compensated is a key view to have and one that I do see is lacking in many, many people I interview or who report to me.  I think looking for a manager who know what you are worth is key to feeling valued.  I fought, and fought hard, and usually won for good employees that I felt were underpaid.  I got a 40% increase for my help desk person a few years back and several double digit raises for a key programmer.  Trying to do that without a manager to push for you, is nearly impossible.

This assumes you are fairly compensated. You know as well as I do that managers who will push for 40% raises for their employees are practically non-existent. Without that key manager pushing for you, you're right..it's basically impossible, and it's easier to get that raise by going to another company.

My last employer had a field engineer give his notice for another job - then he was promptly offered $14k to stay.  If he hadn't given his notice, they would've happily been working him 50-60 hours a week for under $60k. I gave my notice on the day of my 3 year anniversary there. I started at $33k/yr with no benefits or vacation and quit at $61k with benefits (five promotions later). My last annual raise was 2% because 'that's all that's in the budget' -- so I left for $97k and twice the vacation time.  I had to move to a HCOL area, but the math still worked out far, far in my favor.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Slee_stack on August 16, 2016, 02:15:56 PM
Yeah, I'm not analyzing at the first 10 years of a career, I'm at 24 years.  When is 'long enough' to have a valid opinion?

I haven't job hopped enough really, and the only times I've had significant raises were when I did.  I do recognize that its my fault that I'm paid less today then what I could be.  Its likely I would be making at least 50% more if I had jumped say twice as often.

At my stage of the game its not all that important.  I could hop now, and its possible I will, but now $$$ are secondary to me.  Less time is my key motivator at the moment.

I've decided instead that I will continue to minimize my effort, since doing anything above that nets me absolute zero where I am.

I don't doubt that some companies are better at rewarding retention equally, but I wager they are a very small minority.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Making Cookies on August 16, 2016, 02:42:04 PM
Yes it is mandatory. I'm going to quote myself from another thread on job hopping that addresses the issues raised above:


Being a mid-upper management type at a mega Corp: it's because they have crunched the numbers. People hate change, even most people who are otherwise excellent at their jobs hate change. Corporate overlords are banking on this to consistently screw their good long term employees out of money until they actually threaten to quit. They will however hire in new, unknown quantity,  workers at the market rate because that's the only way they can get them.

An old boss gave me the best advice of my career: you should set aside a couple of months every year or 18 months to interview and negotiate offers no matter how much you like your current gig. This will 1)  ensure you know what the market rate is so you can either take another job or negotiate a higher pay at the current one, 2) let you know what opportunities are out there, what skills are in demand, and expose you to opportunities you may not have considered, and 3) keep your interviewing skills, negotiating skills and learning new skills at your current job that will help you get future jobs in the best shape.

I've gone from a salary of 55k 9 years ago to over 300k total compensation today in no small part due to the above. I think I'm very good at what I do,  but I see other talented folks letting inertia handicap their earning potential.

Another bonus of having multiple previous places of employment is the larger network you'll have - so, TL;DR: job hop away!!

You earn $300K but what sort of lifestyle comes with that? I'd love to double my income but I'm not willing to work 60+ hour weeks anymore. At my first engineering job that's what they required. All day and half the night every week. The pay might eventually be average. I told them I was leaving and suddenly there was more money available but it wasn't worth missing out on family time anymore.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: dividendman on August 16, 2016, 02:51:07 PM
You earn $300K but what sort of lifestyle comes with that? I'd love to double my income but I'm not willing to work 60+ hour weeks anymore. At my first engineering job that's what they required. All day and half the night every week. The pay might eventually be average. I told them I was leaving and suddenly there was more money available but it wasn't worth missing out on family time anymore.

Yeah, if you look at some of my other posts it's definitely soul-destroying and hence wanting to FIRE ASAP. There was a while where I would do the 50+ hour weeks for a long time. I don't work even 40 hrs now most weeks because I have enough FU and talent to not need to just "be there" to impress people.

If they fire me, meh, that's OK.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: BoonDogle on August 17, 2016, 09:34:38 AM
I would say that job hopping is generally the fastest way to a raise.  Other things to consider are which company has the top earning potential, are you progressing or stagnant, work/life balance that you are after, etc.  My personal experience is that I could have left for more money but would likely be earning less than half of what I do now (as I have watched many coworkers go that route).  You definitely have to be your best advocate when talking to management about raises, performance, etc. or you could get walked on.  I chose to stay (not that I love my job), but it is a shorter path to FIRE.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Chris22 on August 17, 2016, 09:55:59 AM
FWIW, I'm sitting here, new external offer in hand, watching the clock tick down towards my 24-hr deadline to accept/decline waiting for my current company to let me know if I got the internal promotion I interviewed for or not (and if so, what the $$$ offer is).  If not, I'm outta here for the new gig.  Will know one way or the other this afternoon.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: BFGirl on August 17, 2016, 10:05:32 AM
FWIW, I'm sitting here, new external offer in hand, watching the clock tick down towards my 24-hr deadline to accept/decline waiting for my current company to let me know if I got the internal promotion I interviewed for or not (and if so, what the $$$ offer is).  If not, I'm outta here for the new gig.  Will know one way or the other this afternoon.

Hope it works out well for you!
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: mm1970 on August 17, 2016, 10:48:08 AM
This is an intriguing topic but I would say all the responses only analyze this at the superficial first ten years of a career level.  Now granted this is an MMM forum where the entire "career" of someone who can do everything the "right" way and save a substantial portion of their income and FIRE in 9 years of less, so I get that.  However, at some point nothing will help you get an increase, job hopping or staying, because you've maxed out the real pay you can get for that skill set.  Talking in percentages is just misleading.  I once got a 33% raise staying at my current company.  Is it more impressive if that happened when I was already making $75K (as I was), or if I was making $30K?  I think everyone agrees that the former is more difficult because that percentage is many more real dollars to the company budget.  As a manager looking to hire people I have developers who are making $100K thinking they can ask for 20% more because it is not worth it for them to switch jobs for less, however for the skill set they have (about 5 years of experience) they are really maxed out at what any reasonable employer will pay them.  It does not compute that the reason they have been looking for this new job for a year and been unsuccessful is because they have hit the ceiling of the earning power at this point. 

As a manager I also will not go to HR to make the case from someone who has shown that they are simply going to bolt when they do not get a 10% raise.  Like it or not the reality is it is not sustainable to give 10-20% raises to internal employees when profit is not rising at that same pace.  If we did you'd all go from making 100% of your salary to making 0% when the company shut down due to mismanagement.  Not sure how that serves anyone.  I get the need to get paid what you think you are worth, and it seems all the posters feel they are not there yet, but this entire discussion hinges on the fact that at some point the gravy train of job hopping stops and you need to get that you are making a very good wage and be satisfied. 

My personal experience was that most of my increases were not from job hopping.  Only my first increase worked that way.  I have been sitting at "enough" for over a decade but yet got increases well above the 3%-6% at most employers for various reasons even after that.  Being satisfied and realizing you are fairly compensated is a key view to have and one that I do see is lacking in many, many people I interview or who report to me.  I think looking for a manager who know what you are worth is key to feeling valued.  I fought, and fought hard, and usually won for good employees that I felt were underpaid.  I got a 40% increase for my help desk person a few years back and several double digit raises for a key programmer.  Trying to do that without a manager to push for you, is nearly impossible.

mmm...no. I'm at year 28 of my career.  While I got decent raises the first decade with or without job hopping, they have been few and far between since.  I've had some good bosses give me $6k here and there, which is nice.  But their ability to do that is limited by upper management.  So here I sit, at year 28, making approximately $30k a year less than is typical.

However during a few years of the last 5, I routinely hired or helped hire my compatriots with the same amount of experience (who job hopped), at $12k to 30k a year more.

At some point, maybe it is "enough", sure.  A company that I used to work for was a start-up with mostly PhDs, a few engineers, and some technicians.  The majority of the PhDs were making over $100k to start (so figure, $150-200k now), and also made approximately $800k to $1M on the buyout.  So...for them, generally, a 3.5% raise each year was "fine".  In fact, one of the managers said that to his engineer.  "Why do you even want a raise?  If you enjoy your job, that is what counts."  Well, sir, making it on $54k is a far cry from making it on $120k, especially when your experience level has grown exponentially.

I look at the people on here who jump around and get big raises. Some (like Chris22) are in jobs that don't appeal to me in the slightest.  Most have the luxury? of moving.  I realize that at some point, I had to make the decision to take "comfort" and "flexibility" instead of money, as I have two children (and had the 2nd one at 42).  I'm *just* now coming out of the craziness of having a young child/ no sleep/ no time to myself.  Only now would I be able to take on the extra work of a new job/ new learning.  However, I don't have the luxury of moving to a new location.  Some of that was chicken-or-egg.  In my personal experience, I decided on flexibility *after* it was clear that I'd hit the ceiling in my particular company.  At some point, when working all out and getting everything needed accomplished and taking on more responsibility - when you aren't rewarded, it's time to say "eff it".
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Chris22 on August 17, 2016, 12:15:15 PM
FWIW, I'm sitting here, new external offer in hand, watching the clock tick down towards my 24-hr deadline to accept/decline waiting for my current company to let me know if I got the internal promotion I interviewed for or not (and if so, what the $$$ offer is).  If not, I'm outta here for the new gig.  Will know one way or the other this afternoon.

Aaaannnnd I'm hopping.  7% raise, 20% bonus vs. 10%, and oh by the way, I've been getting 90% of my pay for the last few months because we're on a furlough flexible work hours/temporary pay reduction.  So an effective 19% pay raise.  Score. 

The rest of my day suddenly looks pretty unproductive.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: JLee on August 17, 2016, 12:38:16 PM
FWIW, I'm sitting here, new external offer in hand, watching the clock tick down towards my 24-hr deadline to accept/decline waiting for my current company to let me know if I got the internal promotion I interviewed for or not (and if so, what the $$$ offer is).  If not, I'm outta here for the new gig.  Will know one way or the other this afternoon.

Aaaannnnd I'm hopping.  7% raise, 20% bonus vs. 10%, and oh by the way, I've been getting 90% of my pay for the last few months because we're on a furlough flexible work hours/temporary pay reduction.  So an effective 19% pay raise.  Score. 

The rest of my day suddenly looks pretty unproductive.

Congratulations!
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Slee_stack on August 17, 2016, 01:12:02 PM
- when you aren't rewarded, it's time to say "eff it".
I think you're a kindred spirit.

Very occasionally, I'll feel some guilt about not giving it my 'all'.  But that's doormat thinking and I usually come to my senses quickly.

Today alone, I've had two additional expectations thrown at me that just cannot be done...at least without adding unpaid OT and extra effort.  Sorry.  No. 

OK, just kidding about the sorry part.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: goalphish2002 on August 19, 2016, 09:01:45 AM
If you want to make more money, yes.  Yes, it is...
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: JCfire on August 19, 2016, 09:32:54 AM
I might be the exception to the rule -- I am 10 years into my career and have not had to do any "hopping" to get market level compensation.  I have changed teams within my firm 3 times though.  Not sure if that counts.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: mm1970 on August 19, 2016, 10:38:17 AM
- when you aren't rewarded, it's time to say "eff it".
I think you're a kindred spirit.

Very occasionally, I'll feel some guilt about not giving it my 'all'.  But that's doormat thinking and I usually come to my senses quickly.

Today alone, I've had two additional expectations thrown at me that just cannot be done...at least without adding unpaid OT and extra effort.  Sorry.  No. 

OK, just kidding about the sorry part.
:)

Yes, definitely not sorry.  You'll get effort from me, I promise.  But "all out, I can finish it all, 120%, let's do it!!"  That's going to cost you about $20k per year more.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: forummm on August 19, 2016, 02:37:24 PM
You can manage things, not just people.  For my company, we have a lot of managers who have no headcount but earn the manager title because they manage a P&L.

I manage plenty of things (including a massive, enterprise-priority project), but they're not calling me "manager."

Not all people who manage things are called manager, but generally, everyone who is a manager manages things.

They "manage" to be paid more.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: TexasRunner on August 19, 2016, 03:31:17 PM
posting to follow (I'm in this boat).

I was given an "excellent" raise this year... of 2.4% @ 39K annually.  Otherwise 936$.  I did 40% more work (in calculable and prove-able number) than both my coworkers, one of which makes 15% more than me.  I'm hopping ship.  School is too expensive for that BS.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: retired? on August 25, 2016, 12:30:08 AM
Job 1: 2 years and 3 months
Grad school (biggest single reason for good pay rather than the hops)
Job 2: 2 years
Job 3: 20 months
Job 4: 2 years
Job 5: 7+

I hopped for different reasons, and even twice took pay cuts (which were overcome quickly).  But, it can be a great way to boost pay and significantly in some cases.  Job 3 to 4 resulted in 50%.

Job 5 paid the best...partly experience, but mainly the type of shop.  BUT - looking back, I might have been happiest staying with Job 2 and likely would have been paid the same as Job 5 at this point.

Early in my career, when I saw someone that had worked at a place for 8-10+ years, I usually figured they simply didn't have better alternatives.  For good people, loyalty can pay off.

My recommendation before hopping would be to speak to some senior people who have been with your current firm a while to get a feel for your career path possibilities.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: dplasters on August 25, 2016, 08:29:18 AM
If the goal is to optimize income, strategic job hopping or searching is mandatory, yes.

Is it mandatory in general? No. There are lots of different ways to achieve FIRE. Some work more years but at a more relaxed pace. Others go all in (not unlike the removal of a band-aid).
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: goalphish2002 on August 25, 2016, 08:34:03 AM
If the goal is to optimize income, strategic job hopping or searching is mandatory, yes.

Is it mandatory in general? No. There are lots of different ways to achieve FIRE. Some work more years but at a more relaxed pace. Others go all in (not unlike the removal of a band-aid).

Well said.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on October 03, 2016, 02:57:04 PM
I'm a bit of a job-hopper myself. I have stints after college of 2.5 years, 9 months, 3.5 years, and I'm currently closing in on 2 years with my current employer. Huge pay raises in between job changes are not the norm in my industry (forestry) unless you go from government to corporate work (which I did, and got a 60% raise in doing so) but nobody goes into this industry for the paycheck. Once you're in the corporate world, there's not nearly as much opportunity to job-hop for a pay raise. And if you do get offered a big salary increase, then they're probably offering you a shit job. It's just a small, mature industry, and the cash ain't exactly flowing freely like in finance or technology. I've moved around for better jobs and better locations, but my salary has increased at a steady 3-6% per year, regardless of whether or not I switched companies. So I would say that it does depend on the industry to some extent.

Welp, looks like I'm job-hopping again. At year's end, I'm taking another job with a 15% pay increase, an 8% 401(k) match (vs. 6.6%), and a 25% target bonus (vs. 6%). On the downside, the health insurance will be more costly, but not enough to offset the salary increase. Plus, I'm moving back to my college town, where I've wanted to be ever since I left 8 years ago. We're looking forward to settling down for the long haul and raising our kids there (this will be my 10th move in 14 years and I'm sick of that shit). Hopefully my job-hopping days will be behind me for good.
Title: Re: Is job hopping mandatory?
Post by: goalphish2002 on October 03, 2016, 03:09:14 PM
I'm a bit of a job-hopper myself. I have stints after college of 2.5 years, 9 months, 3.5 years, and I'm currently closing in on 2 years with my current employer. Huge pay raises in between job changes are not the norm in my industry (forestry) unless you go from government to corporate work (which I did, and got a 60% raise in doing so) but nobody goes into this industry for the paycheck. Once you're in the corporate world, there's not nearly as much opportunity to job-hop for a pay raise. And if you do get offered a big salary increase, then they're probably offering you a shit job. It's just a small, mature industry, and the cash ain't exactly flowing freely like in finance or technology. I've moved around for better jobs and better locations, but my salary has increased at a steady 3-6% per year, regardless of whether or not I switched companies. So I would say that it does depend on the industry to some extent.

Welp, looks like I'm job-hopping again. At year's end, I'm taking another job with a 15% pay increase, an 8% 401(k) match (vs. 6.6%), and a 25% target bonus (vs. 6%). On the downside, the health insurance will be more costly, but not enough to offset the salary increase. Plus, I'm moving back to my college town, where I've wanted to be ever since I left 8 years ago. We're looking forward to settling down for the long haul and raising our kids there (this will be my 10th move in 14 years and I'm sick of that shit). Hopefully my job-hopping days will be behind me for good.

Job hopping is mandatory for real raises.