Author Topic: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...  (Read 15029 times)

scottish

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2018, 04:09:40 PM »
I can't understand why people think it's reasonable for the largest software companies in the world to offer support/bugfixes in perpetuity for an ancient OS at no cost. It's just mind blowing. As an infosec guy I'm happy to see that most at least keep up with patching which is nice. But you can shout at clouds all you want, software will still have end of support dates. :D

Hey, if the Linux folks can do it for free, why not Microsoft too? ;)

The companys are behaving perfectly rationally.

My problem is that they want me to upgrade without providing any value added.    The *only* useful thing I saw in windows 8 was the touch UI support, and I see nothing very useful in Windows 10.

I'd like the company to provide at least a half-decent reason for me to change, not to force me to upgrade because their old stuff isn't making them money anymore.

I wonder if you IT guys are stuck in this mindset where world owes IT people and companies a living?   Well, it doesn't!    So there.

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2018, 04:23:02 PM »
You can thank Apple for the slowdown. “It’s for your own good” is a sorry excuse to me. Talk about planned obsolescence.

Generally, when Apple drops a device off the back of the support wagon, there's a hardware reason - the new OS requires some particular hardware feature, so they limit the upgrade to devices with that capability.

I'd like the company to provide at least a half-decent reason for me to change, not to force me to upgrade because their old stuff isn't making them money anymore.

I wonder if you IT guys are stuck in this mindset where world owes IT people and companies a living?   Well, it doesn't!    So there.

You're free to not upgrade, but you won't get things like critical security patches.  If you want to run XP, you're free to do so - I just wouldn't use it on the internet at all.

Re the world owing IT people a living... I have no idea what weeds you're off in.  Do whatever you want.  If you want to run ancient, non-updated shit, then don't come complaining when you get hacked from here to next month.

eaknet

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On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2018, 04:30:10 PM »
You can thank Apple for the slowdown. “It’s for your own good” is a sorry excuse to me. Talk about planned obsolescence.

Generally, when Apple drops a device off the back of the support wagon, there's a hardware reason - the new OS requires some particular hardware feature, so they limit the upgrade to devices with that capability.

I wasn’t referring to stopping iOS updates for obsolete devices. With that I have no issue. I was referring to the recent issue coming to light about battery life and the associated slowdowns configured into the Apple code.

If my phone needs a new battery, I can figure that out on my own and replace it. No need for Apple to hold my hand and make my device slow as an iPhone 4 when they decide I’ve had enough charge cycles.


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hadabeardonce

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2018, 04:36:14 PM »
Those paying attention to interesting corners of tech news might have noticed that there's a rather significant bug in Intel chips, at least, that basically means without a rather significant kernel change, you have no security at all.  Arbitrary user code can read kernel memory.  That's Bad.

I know quite a few people on this forum like to brag about using ancient computers with no longer updated operating systems.

May I suggest that not getting OS updates is an especially bad idea at this point in time?
I agree that you want to use an operating system that's currently supported by its company. Here's the list for Microsoft:

Code: [Select]
Date Support Expires - OS
2014/04/08           - Windows XP (expired)
2017/04/11           - Windows Vista
2020/01/14           - Windows 7
2023/01/10           - Windows 8.1
2025/10/14           - Windows 10

Most malware/viruses/ransomware/etc. takes advantage of using default passwords/configurations and being connected to the internet. Those are some of the easiest things to patch. Unless you have really pissed someone off or made yourself a target somehow, no one is specifically trying to hack into your network or local computer. Most of the time it's a script that's been created which targets everyone looking for vulnerabilities. The script will run, find the vulnerable machines, infect them and move on.

Ransomware is a huge reason to protect yourself. The loss of personal data, especially photos, can be devastating.

Symantec has a pretty good list of current threats and ways to prevent them manually, without using their software: https://www.symantec.com/security_response/landing/threats.jsp

Keep your OS and software up to date. Malwarebytes is free, Symantec isn't. If you're not doing that, be ok with the potential loss of data or increased chance that your internet accounts could be compromised.

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2018, 04:44:35 PM »
I wasn’t referring to stopping iOS updates for obsolete devices. With that I have no issue. I was referring to the recent issue coming to light about battery life and the associated slowdowns configured into the Apple code.

If my phone needs a new battery, I can figure that out on my own and replace it. No need for Apple to hold my hand and make my device slow as an iPhone 4 when they decide I’ve had enough charge cycles.

Ah, that issue.

I'm on Apple's side with regards to the actual fix (as I've dealt with many phones turning off suddenly for people - bad batch of batteries in the Nexus 5), but they should have put some indication somewhere in settings that it was going on (probably in the battery pane).  I've got a problem with them doing something useful and then not indicating to the user that they're doing it, not the actual throttling.

eaknet

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2018, 04:47:35 PM »
I wasn’t referring to stopping iOS updates for obsolete devices. With that I have no issue. I was referring to the recent issue coming to light about battery life and the associated slowdowns configured into the Apple code.

If my phone needs a new battery, I can figure that out on my own and replace it. No need for Apple to hold my hand and make my device slow as an iPhone 4 when they decide I’ve had enough charge cycles.

Ah, that issue.

I'm on Apple's side with regards to the actual fix (as I've dealt with many phones turning off suddenly for people - bad batch of batteries in the Nexus 5), but they should have put some indication somewhere in settings that it was going on (probably in the battery pane).  I've got a problem with them doing something useful and then not indicating to the user that they're doing it, not the actual throttling.
Good points.

My preference would be a choice in the settings where you could choose the throttling or choose speed and chance.

Regardless, at least they finally admitted to doing it.


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scottish

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2018, 05:26:21 PM »
You can thank Apple for the slowdown. “It’s for your own good” is a sorry excuse to me. Talk about planned obsolescence.

Generally, when Apple drops a device off the back of the support wagon, there's a hardware reason - the new OS requires some particular hardware feature, so they limit the upgrade to devices with that capability.

I'd like the company to provide at least a half-decent reason for me to change, not to force me to upgrade because their old stuff isn't making them money anymore.

I wonder if you IT guys are stuck in this mindset where world owes IT people and companies a living?   Well, it doesn't!    So there.

You're free to not upgrade, but you won't get things like critical security patches.  If you want to run XP, you're free to do so - I just wouldn't use it on the internet at all.

Re the world owing IT people a living... I have no idea what weeds you're off in.  Do whatever you want.  If you want to run ancient, non-updated shit, then don't come complaining when you get hacked from here to next month.

I'm just bitching about Microsoft.    I'll stop it, it's more confusing than helpful.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 05:53:29 PM by scottish »

big_slacker

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2018, 07:00:47 PM »
I can't understand why people think it's reasonable for the largest software companies in the world to offer support/bugfixes in perpetuity for an ancient OS at no cost. It's just mind blowing. As an infosec guy I'm happy to see that most at least keep up with patching which is nice. But you can shout at clouds all you want, software will still have end of support dates. :D

Hey, if the Linux folks can do it for free, why not Microsoft too? ;)

The companys are behaving perfectly rationally.

My problem is that they want me to upgrade without providing any value added.    The *only* useful thing I saw in windows 8 was the touch UI support, and I see nothing very useful in Windows 10.

I'd like the company to provide at least a half-decent reason for me to change, not to force me to upgrade because their old stuff isn't making them money anymore.

I wonder if you IT guys are stuck in this mindset where world owes IT people and companies a living?   Well, it doesn't!    So there.

What about multiple desktops, cortana search bar for the start menu (no more fumbling to remember where I put putty, or where the bluetooth settings screen is), a central notification center, workable trackpad gestures (three finger up like apple's mission control, woohoo!), hello for business (biometrics or PIN tied to TPM) and I'm sure a bunch more if I did a simple web search.

You're free to say you don't want any of that and continue to use win7, but it's a pretty hard sell to say MSFT is doing anyone dirty with the FREE upgrade to win10, haha!

It's also hard to imply I or other IT folks are entitled when you're expecting a HUGE software company to add some value that meets your specific criteria (which they probably don't know) to their OS or support a legacy one past a decade.

FWIW about thinking someone owes a living, that's out of left field. In my career I have specific, measurable metrics I need to hit or I'll be shortly looking for a new j.o.b. I've got the opposite mindset of what you're describing, and large software companies know that they also have to constantly up their game or someone else will eat their lunch. Even big companies like MSFT.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:02:19 PM by big_slacker »

JLee

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2018, 07:06:05 PM »
I can't understand why people think it's reasonable for the largest software companies in the world to offer support/bugfixes in perpetuity for an ancient OS at no cost. It's just mind blowing. As an infosec guy I'm happy to see that most at least keep up with patching which is nice. But you can shout at clouds all you want, software will still have end of support dates. :D

Hey, if the Linux folks can do it for free, why not Microsoft too? ;)

The companys are behaving perfectly rationally.

My problem is that they want me to upgrade without providing any value added.    The *only* useful thing I saw in windows 8 was the touch UI support, and I see nothing very useful in Windows 10.

I'd like the company to provide at least a half-decent reason for me to change, not to force me to upgrade because their old stuff isn't making them money anymore.

I wonder if you IT guys are stuck in this mindset where world owes IT people and companies a living?   Well, it doesn't!    So there.

And IT companies don't owe you updates for your ancient software, either.

So there..?

barbaz

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2018, 12:35:26 AM »
And IT companies don't owe you updates for your ancient software, either.

So there..?
They owe me a working product. Is it my fault they can’t get it right on their first try? I’m not going to thank them for fixing security holes that shouldn’t be there in the first place.

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2018, 06:10:21 AM »
And IT companies don't owe you updates for your ancient software, either.

So there..?
They owe me a working product. Is it my fault they can’t get it right on their first try? I’m not going to thank them for fixing security holes that shouldn’t be there in the first place.

Well, if you know how to write non-trivial bug free software, I’m sure they’d love your knowledge.

I think we’re closer to unmanageable complexity, though.

barbaz

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2018, 07:38:14 AM »
Those who blindly rush to apply an update as soon as it's available, will sooner or later regret it.  I practice a 3 day delay on my Windows updates, a 2 week - 4 week delay on my mobile phone updates.  I'll let other people beta test the update and fuck up their systems before I do it on mine.
Like this?

And IT companies don't owe you updates for your ancient software, either.

So there..?
They owe me a working product. Is it my fault they can’t get it right on their first try? I’m not going to thank them for fixing security holes that shouldn’t be there in the first place.

Well, if you know how to write non-trivial bug free software, I’m sure they’d love your knowledge.

I think we’re closer to unmanageable complexity, though.
The problem is the whole we-can-fix-it-later mentality that you have with every tech product these days. The cost of testing it properly to get it right is externalized to the customer, most of which don't know what they're getting into. And suddenly your home doesn't heat because Amazon's servers are down or your fridge is a botnet zombie or whatever. I know software is hard, but screwing customers should not be excused as rational economic decision making.

BTW to get back to an earlier point, from the Google blog post on Meltdown:
"PoC for [Meltdown] that, when running with normal user privileges, can read kernel memory on the Intel Haswell Xeon CPU under some precondition. We believe that this precondition is that the targeted kernel memory is present in the L1D cache."
Meltdown only works if the memory you want to read is in L1 cache of the same CPU (obviously). There is no general way to cause or even check this. I'm certain there is something you can do to get some data of interest into the cache, but this is far from being able to randomly access kernel memory, as is sometimes suggested by the we-are-all-doomed news.

nereo

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2018, 08:19:01 AM »

The problem is the whole we-can-fix-it-later mentality that you have with every tech product these days. The cost of testing it properly to get it right is externalized to the customer, most of which don't know what they're getting into. And suddenly your home doesn't heat because Amazon's servers are down or your fridge is a botnet zombie or whatever. I know software is hard, but screwing customers should not be excused as rational economic decision making.

I get what you are saying, but I don't think its possible to release bug-free OS anymore due to the aforementioned complexity and near-infinite permutations. Crowd-sourced bug identification is almost an unavoidable given at this point. By this I mean there are dozens (if not hundreds) of common hardware configurations all running any assortment of thousands of 3rd party software applications all interacting with the OS, the internet and each other. Apple & MS do extensive sandbox testing, but how it will work "in the field" is almost unknowable until we see how it does with every possibly configuration.  After interntal development and testing each release undergoes multiple developer 'betas' but even those can only illuminate certain flaws.

Sibley

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2018, 08:41:51 AM »
Ok, I'll bite.

Here is Microsoft's lists of improvements.   Which of these do you think makes Windows 10 worth the trouble?

Quote
Customizable Start experience.  don't care. I like the start button just fine.
Refreshed icons and graphics  don't care. Win 7 looks fine for me
Integration with Microsoft's digital assistant - Cortana, can be used for finding and retrieving information on the Internet and your PC, such as files. You can also use it to control applications such as the Music Player and prepare an email message or track a package.  don't care. I don't need to search for files - I know where they are already. If I'm looking online that's what Google is for. Don't play music on the computer. Email - that's what Outlook or similar is for. Track a package - that's what the company's website is for.
Task View for managing applications using multiple desktops. what? I only have 1 screen, don't need more than one desktop.
Modern apps can now be windowed and behave just like desktop apps. they clearly have no idea how I use my computer. Chrome, word,
 excel, outlook.

Notification Center for centralized management of notifications and quick access to PC settings. maybe helpful, but I can find what I need in Win 7 so not really necessary.
Universal applications that work not only on your Windows 10 PC, but also your mobile phone running Windows 10 and also XBOX One. my phone is android and I don't have a gaming console.
XBOX App for Streaming of live games to a PC or Tablet don't have, don't want
Touch optimized Office applications (Word, Excel, Outlook, OneNote and PowerPoint). Providing the power of Office on devices with touch support. Users can edit, prepare documents, spreadsheets and presentations with full document fidelity regardless of device. don't have a touch screen,
 and I prefer not to get finger prints all over my monitor anyway.

Continuum Mode - if you own a 2 in 1 form factor that works both as a laptop and tablet, you can easily let Windows 10 decide the best environment for you. Once detached into Tablet mode for instance, you can work in a more touch optimized user interface. Users will also be able to remotely use Windows 10 Mobile apps on their Windows PCs. don't have that hardware
Microsoft Edge - Windows 10 will include a next generation web browser called Edge that support advances in Windows 10 such as Cortana for finding information on the web, Annotation, PDF support, superior reading experience. will probably continue to use Chrome
Music and playlist integration in OneDrive. itunes holds my music, on my harddrive. Not putting it into the cloud
Unified messaging using Skype Integration hell no.
Windows Hello and Passport for personalized authentication without the use of passwords. I don't have a password on my home computer anyway
Device Guard for protecting devices against malicious applications. so, antivirus/malware?
Support for media formats such as FLAC and MKV no idea what those are. clearly haven't run into them

For me, Win 10 isn't necessary. I'm perfectly happy with Win 7. Since support will end in 2020, we'll see if the laptop survives until then. I've already lost a usb port, replaced the battery (more precisely, dad replaced the battery. I didn't care), and the cd/dvd drive has a few little issues. When 2020 comes around, I'll reevaluate then.

edit: typo
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 08:50:29 AM by Sibley »

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2018, 09:34:07 AM »
Meltdown only works if the memory you want to read is in L1 cache of the same CPU (obviously). There is no general way to cause or even check this. I'm certain there is something you can do to get some data of interest into the cache, but this is far from being able to randomly access kernel memory, as is sometimes suggested by the we-are-all-doomed news.

The PREFETCH series of instructions don't check permissions either.  Some reports say that this is helpful, some say that it will prevent you from accessing data (caching the negative permission).  There are lots of ways to get particular memory of interest in L1 cache.

ketchup

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2018, 09:38:46 AM »

The problem is the whole we-can-fix-it-later mentality that you have with every tech product these days. The cost of testing it properly to get it right is externalized to the customer, most of which don't know what they're getting into. And suddenly your home doesn't heat because Amazon's servers are down or your fridge is a botnet zombie or whatever. I know software is hard, but screwing customers should not be excused as rational economic decision making.

I get what you are saying, but I don't think its possible to release bug-free OS anymore due to the aforementioned complexity and near-infinite permutations. Crowd-sourced bug identification is almost an unavoidable given at this point. By this I mean there are dozens (if not hundreds) of common hardware configurations all running any assortment of thousands of 3rd party software applications all interacting with the OS, the internet and each other. Apple & MS do extensive sandbox testing, but how it will work "in the field" is almost unknowable until we see how it does with every possibly configuration.  After interntal development and testing each release undergoes multiple developer 'betas' but even those can only illuminate certain flaws.
The most people that have used a piece of software I've written is about forty.  All in identical software configurations and very similar hardware configurations.  With proper testing, I can usually iron out most of the major issues, but sometimes the week new code goes live, an unforeseen issue will crop up and I'll have to go in and fix it.  Scale that up to ten thousand users with a thousand hardware configurations and you'd need about 125x my resources just to be as good as what I can manage.  Add a few hundred million configuration permutations and the testing resource requirements get very silly very fast.  Even MS has "only" 124,000 employees.  And they are writing far more sophisticated and error-prone software than I am.  I'm not saying they couldn't improve, or that I would have recommended Win10 on release day in 2015, but making everything magically bug-free is a pretty tall order in this day and age.

Apple locks down their hardware and has total control over it.  That can be annoying for various reasons as a user, but it means that they only have to test the new version of iOS on say, the ten most current iPhones (maybe 20 if we consider all hardware variants).  That's a hell of a lot simpler than making sure Windows 10 works properly with literally millions of different configurations.

Ok, I'll bite.

Here is Microsoft's lists of improvements.   Which of these do you think makes Windows 10 worth the trouble?

Quote
Customizable Start experience.  don't care. I like the start button just fine.
Refreshed icons and graphics  don't care. Win 7 looks fine for me
Integration with Microsoft's digital assistant - Cortana, can be used for finding and retrieving information on the Internet and your PC, such as files. You can also use it to control applications such as the Music Player and prepare an email message or track a package.  don't care. I don't need to search for files - I know where they are already. If I'm looking online that's what Google is for. Don't play music on the computer. Email - that's what Outlook or similar is for. Track a package - that's what the company's website is for.
Task View for managing applications using multiple desktops. what? I only have 1 screen, don't need more than one desktop.
Modern apps can now be windowed and behave just like desktop apps. they clearly have no idea how I use my computer. Chrome, word,
 excel, outlook.

Notification Center for centralized management of notifications and quick access to PC settings. maybe helpful, but I can find what I need in Win 7 so not really necessary.
Universal applications that work not only on your Windows 10 PC, but also your mobile phone running Windows 10 and also XBOX One. my phone is android and I don't have a gaming console.
XBOX App for Streaming of live games to a PC or Tablet don't have, don't want
Touch optimized Office applications (Word, Excel, Outlook, OneNote and PowerPoint). Providing the power of Office on devices with touch support. Users can edit, prepare documents, spreadsheets and presentations with full document fidelity regardless of device. don't have a touch screen,
 and I prefer not to get finger prints all over my monitor anyway.

Continuum Mode - if you own a 2 in 1 form factor that works both as a laptop and tablet, you can easily let Windows 10 decide the best environment for you. Once detached into Tablet mode for instance, you can work in a more touch optimized user interface. Users will also be able to remotely use Windows 10 Mobile apps on their Windows PCs. don't have that hardware
Microsoft Edge - Windows 10 will include a next generation web browser called Edge that support advances in Windows 10 such as Cortana for finding information on the web, Annotation, PDF support, superior reading experience. will probably continue to use Chrome
Music and playlist integration in OneDrive. itunes holds my music, on my harddrive. Not putting it into the cloud
Unified messaging using Skype Integration hell no.
Windows Hello and Passport for personalized authentication without the use of passwords. I don't have a password on my home computer anyway
Device Guard for protecting devices against malicious applications. so, antivirus/malware?
Support for media formats such as FLAC and MKV no idea what those are. clearly haven't run into them

For me, Win 10 isn't necessary. I'm perfectly happy with Win 7. Since support will end in 2020, we'll see if the laptop survives until then. I've already lost a usb port, replaced the battery (more precisely, dad replaced the battery. I didn't care), and the cd/dvd drive has a few little issues. When 2020 comes around, I'll reevaluate then.

edit: typo
I care about absolutely none of those "features."  In fact many of them I've turned off or not used at all on my own PCs (Cortana, Edge, OneDrive, Skype, Windows Store, etc.).  They're really bragging about MKV and FLAC formats being supported in media player? Welcome to 2006, Microsoft.

No, what I care about are the more generic less-obvious boring modernization/optimization that has occurred: 

They back-pedaled some of the everything's-a-tablet-now-fuck-you nonsense from Win8.  I've used 8 for less than an hour total, but it was pretty infuriating.
Forced updates aren't super elegant, but I've had fewer issues with updates overall than I did on 7.
Better touch screen support is fine if not super important; lots of laptops are touch now - GF's is, and I was able to limp along on it when the touchpad was acting up.
Much better support for multiple monitors/weird resolutions/higher resolutions.  4K displays actually look reasonable on Win10.  They look pretty stupid/inconsistent on 7.
Way better than 7 at automatically finding drivers for hardware.  This has saved me hours.
MS finally has acknowledged that doing a Windows reinstall is a fact of life as a Windows user, and has made it much simpler and built-in as an option ("Reset this PC").  Granted, I haven't used this yet, but it's a wonderful idea.
Installing Windows itself is hilariously fast compared to 7 (and 7 was much faster than XP in this regard).  I think the last time I did it, it took about 15 minutes.
Adding network printers and whatnot is simpler/faster than in 7.
Little things like Task Manager and Windows Explorer have much more information and are faster/easier to use.  Search is also improved.
Boot and wake-from-idle times seem faster than 7.

None of this is the flashy stuff you notice or that MS flaunts, but they're the things I miss whenever I step back into Win7-land.

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2018, 11:08:43 AM »
Meltdown only works if the memory you want to read is in L1 cache of the same CPU (obviously). There is no general way to cause or even check this. I'm certain there is something you can do to get some data of interest into the cache, but this is far from being able to randomly access kernel memory, as is sometimes suggested by the we-are-all-doomed news.

Tell 'ya what.

https://github.com/IAIK/meltdown/

You go play with the POC code and tell me what it can and can't do.

scottish

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2018, 03:50:32 PM »
You're free to say you don't want any of that and continue to use win7, but it's a pretty hard sell to say MSFT is doing anyone dirty with the FREE upgrade to win10, haha!

You got me on that one.   It's like they're actually trying to be fair.   That hammering sound is the cognitive dissonance in my head.

ketchup

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2018, 05:31:46 PM »
You're free to say you don't want any of that and continue to use win7, but it's a pretty hard sell to say MSFT is doing anyone dirty with the FREE upgrade to win10, haha!

You got me on that one.   It's like they're actually trying to be fair.   That hammering sound is the cognitive dissonance in my head.
I know what you mean. I never thought I’d be in a thread like this playing Microsoft apologist. What’s next, I’ll start defending the Star Wars prequels?

nemesis

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2018, 05:40:48 PM »
I care about absolutely none of those "features."  In fact many of them I've turned off or not used at all on my own PCs (Cortana, Edge, OneDrive, Skype, Windows Store, etc.).  They're really bragging about MKV and FLAC formats being supported in media player? Welcome to 2006, Microsoft.

No, what I care about are the more generic less-obvious boring modernization/optimization that has occurred: 

They back-pedaled some of the everything's-a-tablet-now-fuck-you nonsense from Win8.  I've used 8 for less than an hour total, but it was pretty infuriating.
Forced updates aren't super elegant, but I've had fewer issues with updates overall than I did on 7.
Better touch screen support is fine if not super important; lots of laptops are touch now - GF's is, and I was able to limp along on it when the touchpad was acting up.
Much better support for multiple monitors/weird resolutions/higher resolutions.  4K displays actually look reasonable on Win10.  They look pretty stupid/inconsistent on 7.
Way better than 7 at automatically finding drivers for hardware.  This has saved me hours.
MS finally has acknowledged that doing a Windows reinstall is a fact of life as a Windows user, and has made it much simpler and built-in as an option ("Reset this PC").  Granted, I haven't used this yet, but it's a wonderful idea.
Installing Windows itself is hilariously fast compared to 7 (and 7 was much faster than XP in this regard).  I think the last time I did it, it took about 15 minutes.
Adding network printers and whatnot is simpler/faster than in 7.
Little things like Task Manager and Windows Explorer have much more information and are faster/easier to use.  Search is also improved.
Boot and wake-from-idle times seem faster than 7.

None of this is the flashy stuff you notice or that MS flaunts, but they're the things I miss whenever I step back into Win7-land.
I have a Windows 10 Lenovo laptop, vanilla set up with no funny stuff.  It is the worst laptop I have used.  If I let the PC sleep for more than 24 hours, it will literally take 30 minutes or an hour before resuming.  Unacceptable.

I have my Windows 7 laptop as a backup and it never fails to resume from sleep or even hibernate right away.  I've left it for 3 months in sleep / hibernate mode, and it started right up in 2 minutes while my Windows 10 piece of crap machine was taking an hour to resume from sleep.  (I've killed the hibernate settings in Windows 10 and it makes no difference).

My Windows 10 machine windows task bar and explorer will randomly refresh, and my Chrome tab sessions will become out of order due to the refresh.  My Windows 7 machines have never refreshed like this.  Windows 7 was truly the pinnacle of stability and reliability.  This is in spite of the fact my Windows 10 machine has a 2 generations new CPU, and 50% more RAM.  Insane!!

Windows 10 is absolutely the worst pile of crap ever put on people.  I'll have important docs open, leave for a while, sometimes get distracted by dinner, kids, etc., and come back in morning and it's already rebooted and fucking lost all of my important docs.  I've never had this issue with Windows 7 or any previous OSes or any other OSes. 

The fact they take control away from the user or admin is unacceptable.  Windows 10 is truly terrible.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 05:42:55 PM by nemesis »

JLee

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #70 on: January 09, 2018, 06:02:18 PM »
I care about absolutely none of those "features."  In fact many of them I've turned off or not used at all on my own PCs (Cortana, Edge, OneDrive, Skype, Windows Store, etc.).  They're really bragging about MKV and FLAC formats being supported in media player? Welcome to 2006, Microsoft.

No, what I care about are the more generic less-obvious boring modernization/optimization that has occurred: 

They back-pedaled some of the everything's-a-tablet-now-fuck-you nonsense from Win8.  I've used 8 for less than an hour total, but it was pretty infuriating.
Forced updates aren't super elegant, but I've had fewer issues with updates overall than I did on 7.
Better touch screen support is fine if not super important; lots of laptops are touch now - GF's is, and I was able to limp along on it when the touchpad was acting up.
Much better support for multiple monitors/weird resolutions/higher resolutions.  4K displays actually look reasonable on Win10.  They look pretty stupid/inconsistent on 7.
Way better than 7 at automatically finding drivers for hardware.  This has saved me hours.
MS finally has acknowledged that doing a Windows reinstall is a fact of life as a Windows user, and has made it much simpler and built-in as an option ("Reset this PC").  Granted, I haven't used this yet, but it's a wonderful idea.
Installing Windows itself is hilariously fast compared to 7 (and 7 was much faster than XP in this regard).  I think the last time I did it, it took about 15 minutes.
Adding network printers and whatnot is simpler/faster than in 7.
Little things like Task Manager and Windows Explorer have much more information and are faster/easier to use.  Search is also improved.
Boot and wake-from-idle times seem faster than 7.

None of this is the flashy stuff you notice or that MS flaunts, but they're the things I miss whenever I step back into Win7-land.
I have a Windows 10 Lenovo laptop, vanilla set up with no funny stuff.  It is the worst laptop I have used.  If I let the PC sleep for more than 24 hours, it will literally take 30 minutes or an hour before resuming.  Unacceptable.

I have my Windows 7 laptop as a backup and it never fails to resume from sleep or even hibernate right away.  I've left it for 3 months in sleep / hibernate mode, and it started right up in 2 minutes while my Windows 10 piece of crap machine was taking an hour to resume from sleep.  (I've killed the hibernate settings in Windows 10 and it makes no difference).

My Windows 10 machine windows task bar and explorer will randomly refresh, and my Chrome tab sessions will become out of order due to the refresh.  My Windows 7 machines have never refreshed like this.  Windows 7 was truly the pinnacle of stability and reliability.  This is in spite of the fact my Windows 10 machine has a 2 generations new CPU, and 50% more RAM.  Insane!!

Windows 10 is absolutely the worst pile of crap ever put on people. I'll have important docs open, leave for a while, sometimes get distracted by dinner, kids, etc., and come back in morning and it's already rebooted and fucking lost all of my important docs.  I've never had this issue with Windows 7 or any previous OSes or any other OSes. 

The fact they take control away from the user or admin is unacceptable.  Windows 10 is truly terrible.

LOL.  I see you have never experienced Windows Millennium. Or Vista.

Your stability problems aren't specifically due to Windows 10, btw.  I have been running it since pre-release, and currently have five different machines (2x work and 3x personal) running Win10 Pro without issue.

Aggie1999

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2018, 06:16:43 AM »
I care about absolutely none of those "features."  In fact many of them I've turned off or not used at all on my own PCs (Cortana, Edge, OneDrive, Skype, Windows Store, etc.).  They're really bragging about MKV and FLAC formats being supported in media player? Welcome to 2006, Microsoft.

No, what I care about are the more generic less-obvious boring modernization/optimization that has occurred: 

They back-pedaled some of the everything's-a-tablet-now-fuck-you nonsense from Win8.  I've used 8 for less than an hour total, but it was pretty infuriating.
Forced updates aren't super elegant, but I've had fewer issues with updates overall than I did on 7.
Better touch screen support is fine if not super important; lots of laptops are touch now - GF's is, and I was able to limp along on it when the touchpad was acting up.
Much better support for multiple monitors/weird resolutions/higher resolutions.  4K displays actually look reasonable on Win10.  They look pretty stupid/inconsistent on 7.
Way better than 7 at automatically finding drivers for hardware.  This has saved me hours.
MS finally has acknowledged that doing a Windows reinstall is a fact of life as a Windows user, and has made it much simpler and built-in as an option ("Reset this PC").  Granted, I haven't used this yet, but it's a wonderful idea.
Installing Windows itself is hilariously fast compared to 7 (and 7 was much faster than XP in this regard).  I think the last time I did it, it took about 15 minutes.
Adding network printers and whatnot is simpler/faster than in 7.
Little things like Task Manager and Windows Explorer have much more information and are faster/easier to use.  Search is also improved.
Boot and wake-from-idle times seem faster than 7.

None of this is the flashy stuff you notice or that MS flaunts, but they're the things I miss whenever I step back into Win7-land.
I have a Windows 10 Lenovo laptop, vanilla set up with no funny stuff.  It is the worst laptop I have used.  If I let the PC sleep for more than 24 hours, it will literally take 30 minutes or an hour before resuming.  Unacceptable.

I have my Windows 7 laptop as a backup and it never fails to resume from sleep or even hibernate right away.  I've left it for 3 months in sleep / hibernate mode, and it started right up in 2 minutes while my Windows 10 piece of crap machine was taking an hour to resume from sleep.  (I've killed the hibernate settings in Windows 10 and it makes no difference).

My Windows 10 machine windows task bar and explorer will randomly refresh, and my Chrome tab sessions will become out of order due to the refresh.  My Windows 7 machines have never refreshed like this.  Windows 7 was truly the pinnacle of stability and reliability.  This is in spite of the fact my Windows 10 machine has a 2 generations new CPU, and 50% more RAM.  Insane!!

Windows 10 is absolutely the worst pile of crap ever put on people.  I'll have important docs open, leave for a while, sometimes get distracted by dinner, kids, etc., and come back in morning and it's already rebooted and fucking lost all of my important docs.  I've never had this issue with Windows 7 or any previous OSes or any other OSes. 

The fact they take control away from the user or admin is unacceptable.  Windows 10 is truly terrible.

On the nightly reboot issue it may be Windows 10 default update behavior (download the updates and reboot no matter what is running). Windows 10 doesn't make it easy, but this behavior can be changed to not reboot or to not even download the updates automatically. Still cannot disable the annoying overlay message that updates are available though.

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-stop-updates-installing-automatically-windows-10

nemesis

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2018, 07:15:49 AM »

On the nightly reboot issue it may be Windows 10 default update behavior (download the updates and reboot no matter what is running). Windows 10 doesn't make it easy, but this behavior can be changed to not reboot or to not even download the updates automatically. Still cannot disable the annoying overlay message that updates are available though.

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-stop-updates-installing-automatically-windows-10
I've done that already, and there was an update (creator's update?) that undid it, and then I did some other fix after that.  It still randomly will have this behavior from time to time, not consistently.  The fact you have to fight Microsoft to have some control over your PC is astounding.

nemesis

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2018, 07:17:23 AM »


LOL.  I see you have never experienced Windows Millennium. Or Vista.

Your stability problems aren't specifically due to Windows 10, btw.  I have been running it since pre-release, and currently have five different machines (2x work and 3x personal) running Win10 Pro without issue.
I avoided ME or Vista cause I knew better. :)

I have never had an issue with Windows 7 running on *any* hardware.  This Windows 10 is running on vanilla Lenovo Thinkpad machinery with higher specs than usual. 

So yes, it is possible for Windows 10 to be stable, but it is not stable on *all* hardware like Windows 7 is.  Whatever changes Microsoft did under the hood to Windows 10, makes it a piece of crap on an OEM higher end laptop configuration, in particular in my case.

In addition, I bricked a 64gb Dell Venue Pro tablet PC upgrading from Windows 8 to Windows 10, explicitly following Dell and Microsoft's Windows 10 upgrade instructions, timingwise nearly towards the end of the Windows 10 free upgrade period (after it had been free for 1 year) to allow them to work the bugs out.  That's the first PC I have *ever* bricked doing a PC upgrade, just following OEM instructions.  Just a nightmare!

So I upgrade cautiously and carefully.  Software does seem to migrate towards unmanageable complexity as someone said earlier in this thread, and newer is not necessarily better.  One needs to wait to make sure the update does not make things worse!
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:20:23 AM by nemesis »

JLee

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2018, 06:09:45 PM »


LOL.  I see you have never experienced Windows Millennium. Or Vista.

Your stability problems aren't specifically due to Windows 10, btw.  I have been running it since pre-release, and currently have five different machines (2x work and 3x personal) running Win10 Pro without issue.
I avoided ME or Vista cause I knew better. :)

I have never had an issue with Windows 7 running on *any* hardware.  This Windows 10 is running on vanilla Lenovo Thinkpad machinery with higher specs than usual. 

So yes, it is possible for Windows 10 to be stable, but it is not stable on *all* hardware like Windows 7 is.  Whatever changes Microsoft did under the hood to Windows 10, makes it a piece of crap on an OEM higher end laptop configuration, in particular in my case.

In addition, I bricked a 64gb Dell Venue Pro tablet PC upgrading from Windows 8 to Windows 10, explicitly following Dell and Microsoft's Windows 10 upgrade instructions, timingwise nearly towards the end of the Windows 10 free upgrade period (after it had been free for 1 year) to allow them to work the bugs out.  That's the first PC I have *ever* bricked doing a PC upgrade, just following OEM instructions.  Just a nightmare!

So I upgrade cautiously and carefully.  Software does seem to migrate towards unmanageable complexity as someone said earlier in this thread, and newer is not necessarily better.  One needs to wait to make sure the update does not make things worse!

Really? You want to go there?

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/windows-7-crashes-constantly/9cb94634-83ff-4d85-b34f-e2b06fb8f53b?auth=1

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/2913431/update-fixes-an-issue-that-causes-windows-to-crash

https://www.cnet.com/forums/discussions/windows-7-crashing-what-could-be-the-reason/

https://www.cnet.com/forums/discussions/windows-7-keeps-crashing/

https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/1976363-crashing-w7-pcs-monday-morning-windows-updates

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/653201/windows-7-explorer-crashing-when-copying-files/

I could go on...and on...and on...

I don't run OEM software installs on anything, Vista, 7, 8, 10, whatever.  I wipe and install a clean Microsoft operating system without all of the garbage that the OEM providers like to include. Your problems are more likely due to the "OEM laptop configuration" than the operating system itself.

If you want to talk about high end laptops, I have a Dell XPS 15 9560 with an i7 7700HQ, 16GB RAM, 4k 10 point multi-touch IPS display, and 4GB GTX 1050 that runs Windows 10 beautifully (as does my 2yo+ work laptop, which is a Lenovo Ultrabook with an i7 5600u).  It's also running on an ancient shitty Acer with a 2nd gen i3, and has been since release...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 06:27:05 PM by JLee »

scottish

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2018, 03:53:06 PM »
Is that the ticket?   When you're having problems, ignore the OEM install and install a clean Microsoft distro?

Can you reuse the OEM windows license, or do you have to buy a new one?


nemesis

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2018, 03:55:22 PM »


LOL.  I see you have never experienced Windows Millennium. Or Vista.

Your stability problems aren't specifically due to Windows 10, btw.  I have been running it since pre-release, and currently have five different machines (2x work and 3x personal) running Win10 Pro without issue.
I avoided ME or Vista cause I knew better. :)

I have never had an issue with Windows 7 running on *any* hardware.  This Windows 10 is running on vanilla Lenovo Thinkpad machinery with higher specs than usual. 

So yes, it is possible for Windows 10 to be stable, but it is not stable on *all* hardware like Windows 7 is.  Whatever changes Microsoft did under the hood to Windows 10, makes it a piece of crap on an OEM higher end laptop configuration, in particular in my case.

In addition, I bricked a 64gb Dell Venue Pro tablet PC upgrading from Windows 8 to Windows 10, explicitly following Dell and Microsoft's Windows 10 upgrade instructions, timingwise nearly towards the end of the Windows 10 free upgrade period (after it had been free for 1 year) to allow them to work the bugs out.  That's the first PC I have *ever* bricked doing a PC upgrade, just following OEM instructions.  Just a nightmare!

So I upgrade cautiously and carefully.  Software does seem to migrate towards unmanageable complexity as someone said earlier in this thread, and newer is not necessarily better.  One needs to wait to make sure the update does not make things worse!

Really? You want to go there?

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/windows-7-crashes-constantly/9cb94634-83ff-4d85-b34f-e2b06fb8f53b?auth=1

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/2913431/update-fixes-an-issue-that-causes-windows-to-crash

https://www.cnet.com/forums/discussions/windows-7-crashing-what-could-be-the-reason/

https://www.cnet.com/forums/discussions/windows-7-keeps-crashing/

https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/1976363-crashing-w7-pcs-monday-morning-windows-updates

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/653201/windows-7-explorer-crashing-when-copying-files/

I could go on...and on...and on...

I don't run OEM software installs on anything, Vista, 7, 8, 10, whatever.  I wipe and install a clean Microsoft operating system without all of the garbage that the OEM providers like to include. Your problems are more likely due to the "OEM laptop configuration" than the operating system itself.

If you want to talk about high end laptops, I have a Dell XPS 15 9560 with an i7 7700HQ, 16GB RAM, 4k 10 point multi-touch IPS display, and 4GB GTX 1050 that runs Windows 10 beautifully (as does my 2yo+ work laptop, which is a Lenovo Ultrabook with an i7 5600u).  It's also running on an ancient shitty Acer with a 2nd gen i3, and has been since release...
Yawn... I can produce tens of thousands of posts about any OS crashing, in particular Windows 10.  Not impressed.

I've built my own PCs since high school.  Helped resolve countless PC issues for other folks, we can go back and forth all day.  In my considerable experience, Windows 10 has been a real piece of crap.

ketchup

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2018, 03:55:56 PM »
Is that the ticket?   When you're having problems, ignore the OEM install and install a clean Microsoft distro?

Can you reuse the OEM windows license, or do you have to buy a new one?
That's what I'd typically do, and yes you can re-use the license.  Most of the bundled anything is complete bullshit on most systems.

JLee

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2018, 04:06:00 PM »
I've built my own PCs since high school.  Helped resolve countless PC issues for other folks, we can go back and forth all day.  In my considerable experience, Windows 10 has been a real piece of crap.

I'm not the one who claimed any particular OS was "stable on all hardware." 

If you want to compare resumes (which is pointless because this is all anecdotal experience regardless), I work in tech for a living - though generally I'm working with datacenter/corporate gear.  I haven't been involved in desktop support for years (thank god, because that is a miserable thing to do). Like I said, all of my Win10 machines work fine - and have since the developer's preview release.  Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I know what I'm doing, maybe I buy proper hardware. Who knows.  /shrug

Is that the ticket?   When you're having problems, ignore the OEM install and install a clean Microsoft distro?

Can you reuse the OEM windows license, or do you have to buy a new one?

Yes. I don't even wait to have problems - the OEM install gets wiped on everything I buy.  I build my own desktops so it's a non-issue there, but I will not run an OEM-installed OS on any laptop I own.   Windows 10 licenses get registered to the hardware, so you don't even have to keep keys around anymore.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 04:15:51 PM by JLee »

nemesis

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2018, 04:18:06 PM »
I've built my own PCs since high school.  Helped resolve countless PC issues for other folks, we can go back and forth all day.  In my considerable experience, Windows 10 has been a real piece of crap.

I'm not the one who claimed any particular OS was "stable on all hardware." 

If you want to compare resumes (which is pointless because this is all anecdotal experience regardless), I work in tech for a living - though generally I'm working with datacenter/corporate gear.  I haven't been involved in desktop support for years (thank god, because that is a miserable thing to do). Like I said, all of my Win10 machines work fine - and have since the developer's preview release.  Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I know what I'm doing, maybe I buy proper hardware. Who knows.  /shrug

Is that the ticket?   When you're having problems, ignore the OEM install and install a clean Microsoft distro?

Can you reuse the OEM windows license, or do you have to buy a new one?

Yes. I don't even wait to have problems - the OEM install gets wiped on everything I buy.  I build my own desktops so it's a non-issue there, but I will not run an OEM-installed OS on any laptop I own.   Windows 10 licenses get registered to the hardware, so you don't even have to keep keys around anymore.
Fair enough, but when you have a vanilla Windows 10 machine with updated specs running like the worst piece of junk you have ever used, you get a little biased against Windows 10.

Windows 10 is not the ultimate Windows OS as far as I'm concerned, but I'm glad it has worked out well for you.

JLee

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2018, 04:20:28 PM »
I've built my own PCs since high school.  Helped resolve countless PC issues for other folks, we can go back and forth all day.  In my considerable experience, Windows 10 has been a real piece of crap.

I'm not the one who claimed any particular OS was "stable on all hardware." 

If you want to compare resumes (which is pointless because this is all anecdotal experience regardless), I work in tech for a living - though generally I'm working with datacenter/corporate gear.  I haven't been involved in desktop support for years (thank god, because that is a miserable thing to do). Like I said, all of my Win10 machines work fine - and have since the developer's preview release.  Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I know what I'm doing, maybe I buy proper hardware. Who knows.  /shrug

Is that the ticket?   When you're having problems, ignore the OEM install and install a clean Microsoft distro?

Can you reuse the OEM windows license, or do you have to buy a new one?

Yes. I don't even wait to have problems - the OEM install gets wiped on everything I buy.  I build my own desktops so it's a non-issue there, but I will not run an OEM-installed OS on any laptop I own.   Windows 10 licenses get registered to the hardware, so you don't even have to keep keys around anymore.
Fair enough, but when you have a vanilla Windows 10 machine with updated specs running like the worst piece of junk you have ever used, you get a little biased against Windows 10.

Windows 10 is not the ultimate Windows OS as far as I'm concerned, but I'm glad it has worked out well for you.

I agree, that would be frustrating. Have you ruled out hardware failure?  I've seen failing hard drives/SSDs cause machines to run absolutely terribly (on Win7, come to think of it), but it still (somewhat) worked.

nemesis

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2018, 04:24:48 PM »

I agree, that would be frustrating. Have you ruled out hardware failure?  I've seen failing hard drives/SSDs cause machines to run absolutely terribly (on Win7, come to think of it), but it still (somewhat) worked.
I've swapped out the RAM and SSD, the easy stuff. I want to try re-seating the CPU and put thermal paste on it to see if it will help.  Just been too lazy to do that with the holidays.

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2018, 04:39:08 PM »
Windows 10 licenses get registered to the hardware, so you don't even have to keep keys around anymore.

Yeah, almost as convenient as having FCKGW... memorized back in the early XP days!

JLee

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2018, 04:45:35 PM »

I agree, that would be frustrating. Have you ruled out hardware failure?  I've seen failing hard drives/SSDs cause machines to run absolutely terribly (on Win7, come to think of it), but it still (somewhat) worked.
I've swapped out the RAM and SSD, the easy stuff. I want to try re-seating the CPU and put thermal paste on it to see if it will help.  Just been too lazy to do that with the holidays.

It may be worth monitoring CPU temperature through software first - could save you the time/hassle if it turns out that CPU temp isn't the problem.

nemesis

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2018, 04:50:49 PM »

I agree, that would be frustrating. Have you ruled out hardware failure?  I've seen failing hard drives/SSDs cause machines to run absolutely terribly (on Win7, come to think of it), but it still (somewhat) worked.
I've swapped out the RAM and SSD, the easy stuff. I want to try re-seating the CPU and put thermal paste on it to see if it will help.  Just been too lazy to do that with the holidays.

It may be worth monitoring CPU temperature through software first - could save you the time/hassle if it turns out that CPU temp isn't the problem.
I've been using CoreTemp but I'm not sure I trust the readings I get from it.  It seems to spike randomly without correlation to computer activity.  I've throttled the CPU via power settings and it has helped somewhat, but not consistently.  I honestly don't know if it is the CPU or not, but I'll give it a go.

The issue is the problems are not consistent, but they are wonderfully inconsistent, so it's really hard to debug with certainty. I've been capturing system dumps as well, haven't made it too far but this is what I'm following:

Quote
Well, I am having this issue for the last 10 days, until today i decided to kill it. It took 3 hours to troubleshoot and finally issue no more exist.
1-First you need to know which file/program is culprit for crashing explorer.exe. Make a folder in "c" drive and name it "dumps".
Open notepad and copy the following.

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\Windows Error Reporting\LocalDumps\explorer.exe]
"DumpFolder"=hex(2):63,00,3a,00,5c,00,64,00,75,00,6d,00,70,00,73,00,00,00
"DumpCount"=dword:00000002
"DumpType"=dword:00000002

Save the file on desktop as explorercrashdumps-to-C.reg , run the file and it will add entries in registry. Now whenever explorer crashes, it will write a dump file in c:/dumps
2. Go to Kits and tools for Windows 10 - Windows 10 Hardware Dev Center
click on Get Debugging Tools for Windows (WinDbg) (from the SDK). Run it and during installation check only Windbg (it was 200-300 mb i recall), it will download and install Windbg.
3. Meanwhile your explorer must have crashed some times and you will be able to see at least two dump files in c:/dumps
make a new folder in C:/localsymbols, Open Windbg (x64 or X32 based on your OS), choose File>Symbol file path and wirte SRV*c:\localsymbols*http://msdl.microsoft.com/download/symbols and click ok.
Go to File>Open crash dump and choose one of the dump files in C:/dumps.
You may see something similar to this:

Microsoft (R) Windows Debugger Version 10.0.10240.9 AMD64
Copyright (c) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


Loading Dump File [C:\dumps\explorer.exe.6712.dmp]
User Mini Dump File with Full Memory: Only application data is available

WARNING: Minidump contains unknown stream type 0x15
WARNING: Minidump contains unknown stream type 0x16

************* Symbol Path validation summary **************
Response Time (ms) Location
Deferred SRV*c:\localsymbols*http://msdl.microsoft.com/download/symbols
Symbol search path is: SRV*c:\localsymbols*http://msdl.microsoft.com/download/symbols
Executable search path is:
Windows 10 Version 10240 MP (4 procs) Free x64
Product: WinNt, suite: SingleUserTS Personal
Built by: 10.0.10240.16384 (th1.150709-1700)
Machine Name:
Debug session time: Wed Sep 23 01:00:48.000 2015 (UTC + 3:00)
System Uptime: 0 days 1:42:19.488
Process Uptime: 0 days 0:02:43.000
................................................................
................................................................
................................................................
................................................................
............................................................
Loading unloaded module list
.............................................................
This dump file has an exception of interest stored in it.
The stored exception information can be accessed via .ecxr.
(1a38.c4c): Access violation - code c0000005 (first/second chance not available)
No .natvis files found at C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Kits\10\Debuggers\x64\Visualizers.
ntdll!NtWaitForMultipleObjects+0xa:
00007ff8`01933aaa c3 ret

There is a box at the bottom of windbg, write !analyze -v
The status will come as busy (you must be connected to internet) and different files will be downloaded. After few minutes you will see detail crash report.

Last few lines I am copying here:
SYMBOL_STACK_INDEX: 0
SYMBOL_NAME: vtkfiltering.dll!Unloaded+0
FOLLOWUP_NAME: MachineOwner
MODULE_NAME: vtkFiltering
IMAGE_NAME: vtkFiltering.dll
DEBUG_FLR_IMAGE_TIMESTAMP: 4e1d3238
STACK_COMMAND: .ecxr ; ~~[0xc4c]s ; .frame 0 ; ** Pseudo Context ** ; kb
FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: INVALID_CLASS_PTR_READ_FINALIZER_LEAK_IN_CALL_c0000005_vtkFiltering.dll!Unloaded
BUCKET_ID: INVALID_CLASS_PTR_READ_INVALID_POINTER_READ_FINALIZER_LEAK_IN_CALL_vtkfiltering.dll!Unloaded+0
PRIMARY_PROBLEM_CLASS: INVALID_CLASS_PTR_READ_INVALID_POINTER_READ_FINALIZER_LEAK_IN_CALL_vtkfiltering.dll!Unloaded+0
FAILURE_PROBLEM_CLASS: INVALID_CLASS_PTR_READ_FINALIZER_LEAK_IN_CALL
FAILURE_EXCEPTION_CODE: c0000005
FAILURE_IMAGE_NAME: vtkFiltering.dll
FAILURE_FUNCTION_NAME: Unloaded
FAILURE_SYMBOL_NAME: vtkFiltering.dll!Unloaded
ANALYSIS_SOURCE: UM
FAILURE_ID_HASH_STRING: um:invalid_class_ptr_read_finalizer_leak_in_call_c0000005_vtkfiltering.dll!unloaded
FAILURE_ID_HASH: {126d30c7-9792-66f7-c085-c1398cc18998}
Followup: MachineOwner
---------

Note down the failure symbol name , failure image name. You can also click on module name and it will show you a link of "browse full module list". Click on this link and you will see many .dll files, you need to copy their names and search in c: drive and program folders and look their location. The relevant software in program files is the culprit and you must uninstall it.
In my case and in most of the cases reported on internet all files belong to Autodesk inventor Bin folder located within Inventor folder. I have cut Bin folder and pasted it at different location and my problem is resolved.

JLee

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2018, 04:54:34 PM »
Another (albeit annoying) option - install Win7 on it and see if it still shows the same behavior.

Daley

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2018, 05:34:48 PM »
The issue is the problems are not consistent, but they are wonderfully inconsistent, so it's really hard to debug with certainty.

If you're not already familiar with it, this might help you better nail down what might be going on:
All In One – System Rescue Toolkit

Give the guy's page and FAQ a quick once-over and the videos a watch to see how to best use it. It's pretty straight forward, though, if you've done tech work and desktop/diagnostics support.

I used to be a big believer in UBCD for diagnostics, but this is a lot easier. About the only thing it doesn't do is GPU load testing IIRC (don't do a lot of system diags anymore, so the memory is a little rusty, so I can't say with certainty), but even if it doesn't, that's easily addressed with FurMark.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2018, 06:16:33 PM »
Honest question: When 2020 rolls around and I'm still using Win 7, does it even matter that the OS is unsupported by Microsoft when I use Norton Security anyway?

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2018, 06:17:46 PM »
Honest question: When 2020 rolls around and I'm still using Win 7, does it even matter that the OS is unsupported by Microsoft when I use Norton Security anyway?

Yes.

nereo

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #89 on: January 12, 2018, 06:14:16 AM »
Honest question: When 2020 rolls around and I'm still using Win 7, does it even matter that the OS is unsupported by Microsoft when I use Norton Security anyway?

Norton Security will only remove malware, and its never 100% effective.  It doesn't fix the underlying vulnerability in the OS. "Unsupported" means there will be no more security patches, which means any newly discovered vulnerabilities can be exploited.
A vulnerability with no patch is like catnip to hackers.

ketchup

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #90 on: January 12, 2018, 08:08:38 AM »
Honest question: When 2020 rolls around and I'm still using Win 7, does it even matter that the OS is unsupported by Microsoft when I use Norton Security anyway?

Norton Security will only remove malware, and its never 100% effective.  It doesn't fix the underlying vulnerability in the OS. "Unsupported" means there will be no more security patches, which means any newly discovered vulnerabilities can be exploited.
A vulnerability with no patch is like catnip to hackers.
+1

Also, I'm sure there will be vulnerabilities found before Jan 2020 that won't be exploited (and therefore noticed) right away, so MS doesn't patch them at all.  Jan 2020 isn't the time to consider switching, as far as I'm concerned it's a hard deadline.  At work, we had the last of our internet-connected XP machines replaced several months ahead of support ending in 2014.  We'll be doing the same for 7.

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #91 on: January 12, 2018, 08:17:29 AM »
I wish Norton could behave as well as modern malware.

Endless pestering, randomly kills the network connection, generally very poorly behaved in my experience. Has that gotten any better recently?