Is getting married bad for FI/RE?

[Re3iRtH]

This is something that I have been pondering for the last few years. I am in my early 30s, and every year has been better than the last. I feel like I have set up a really nice balance of work, hobbies, travel, practicing gratitude, self-improvement and side gigs. Contentment is improving year over year.

I have been getting some pressure from parents/others about "settling down and having kids". Why settling equate to living with someone and having children? I haven't been able to figure that out. I feel very settled. I do want children some day, though.

I would love to hear how marriage has helped you/hurt you on your way to FI/RE (guys and gals please feel free to comment!).

[Lepetitange3]

Do what makes you happiest.

In my case, FIRE was made easier by marriage because we both have the same goals and practice the same financial habits.

It is easier and quicker to FIRE with two incomes contributing because some fixed costs in a family remain relatively stable but you have 2 people throwing money at it. 

But if you're partner is a crazy spender this obviously wouldn't be true.

[marshdesign]

you get to combine expenses yet have 2 incomes. health insurance is cheaper, housing, paying one utility bill instead of each person paying their own. The list goes on! 

[ixtap]

As other have noted marriage can beneficial for FIRE, but divorce is usually a pretty big set back, so choose your partner wisely, not as a means to an end.

[radram]

This is something that I have been pondering for the last few years. I am in my early 30s, and every year has been better than the last. I feel like I have set up a really nice balance of work, hobbies, travel, practicing gratitude, self-improvement and side gigs. Contentment is improving year over year.

I have been getting some pressure from parents/others about "settling down and having kids". Why settling equate to living with someone and having children? I haven't been able to figure that out. I feel very settled. I do want children some day, though.

I would love to hear how marriage has helped you/hurt you on your way to FI/RE (guys and gals please feel free to comment!).

All things being equal, 2 single people should take longer to reach FIRE than 1 married couple. Per person spending should be less for the couple than the 2 singles due to cost sharing on items such as your home. It definitely would not occur twice as fast, since not all costs in life are less per person through cost sharing.

The key is that the couple both need FIRE as a goal, and both work to achieve it. 1 FIRE oriented person with a spendypants spouse would be devastating to annual spending and threaten to destroy the marriage.

"Someone else thinks I am ready for kids" is a lousy reason to have kids.

[SC93]

It depends... are you getting married for money or for love? I've yet to be shown where in the Bible it says to stop by the court house to get a marriage license.

[Laura33]

Do what feels right to you, not what someone else thinks you should.  "Should" is the devil.

Get married if/when you meet someone you want to marry.  Have kids when you are emotionally and financially ready to have kids.  The rest is gravy.

I think The Millionaire Next Door pretty clearly established that a like-minded, frugal spouse was a tremendous asset in achieving wealth. OTOH, a bad match can be financially damaging.

For me, marriage has been a mixed financial bag:  DH is a spendypants, but also a high earner, but also took us through several job losses in the first tech crash that hurt financially.  So after more than 20 years of ups and downs, what I can say is:

1.  I would have been far more frugal on my own, and if I had discovered MMM early enough would probably have been FIREd by now without him.
2.  I also would never have dared to buy/do some things that DH encouraged me to, and that I now wouldn't trade for the world.
3.  We have found ways to meet in the middle.  It was not always easy, and neither of us got 100% of what we wanted. 
4.  I would not trade him for being FIREd now.  Hands down -- this is a complete no-brainer.  That is just frankly trivial when compared to the family and the life we have built together. 

[ysette9]

I feel like my net worth really took off once I got married. As others have said, having a like-minded partner to share living expenses with is a boon. Double points if you both happen to be high earning like us.

That that is not a reason to get married. I want to reach FIRE primarily to have more time to spend with the people I love: my husband and my kiddo are the two most important people in the world to me who bring me the most joy, hands down.

Another have said, get married if you meet someone you love, who shares similar values, who brings you joy. Else, keep on the nice path you have for yourself and ignore anyone who tells you that you "should" get married.

[CheapScholar]

I got married very young (23) but fortunately it has been great financially.  My wife is a pretty reasonable person when it comes to saving. 

My brother in law (who has himself been pretty bad with money) is engaged to a SUPER spendypants.  I have no doubt she will ruin him financially, as she will demand a McMansion, daily Starbucks, other consumer bullshit.  They'll be one of those couples paying PMI on their house, have two new car payments at all times and probably always have some CC debt on the books.

Pick a good partner!

[Re3iRtH]

Do what feels right to you, not what someone else thinks you should.  "Should" is the devil.

Get married if/when you meet someone you want to marry.  Have kids when you are emotionally and financially ready to have kids.  The rest is gravy.

I think The Millionaire Next Door pretty clearly established that a like-minded, frugal spouse was a tremendous asset in achieving wealth. OTOH, a bad match can be financially damaging.

For me, marriage has been a mixed financial bag:  DH is a spendypants, but also a high earner, but also took us through several job losses in the first tech crash that hurt financially.  So after more than 20 years of ups and downs, what I can say is:

1.  I would have been far more frugal on my own, and if I had discovered MMM early enough would probably have been FIREd by now without him.
2.  I also would never have dared to buy/do some things that DH encouraged me to, and that I now wouldn't trade for the world.
3.  We have found ways to meet in the middle.  It was not always easy, and neither of us got 100% of what we wanted. 
4.  I would not trade him for being FIREd now.  Hands down -- this is a complete no-brainer.  That is just frankly trivial when compared to the family and the life we have built together.

I appreciate the candid response.

I get the feeling that a lot of the folks responding are NOT millennials and/or have been married for a while.

Now the question is, who has dated a woman (or man) born in the 1980s or more recent? Who has dated someone from the facebook/tinder/instagram generation? I have found that millennials are less focused, much less honor or integrity, less personal responsibility, and more entitled that any other generation. If you have, then you would see what we have to work with these days :) I am a millennial, so I get to criticize my own subset of people.

Personally, my net worth took off once I dramatically slowed the going clubbing, bars, high end restaurants, driving a sports car, etc. Finding a mate almost always requires one to be more social, and more social = more spending. It also takes TIME, time that could be used to grow ones FI .. such as reading books, having coffee with clients instead of cute first dates, working on investing/business etc. etc.

Interesting stuff guys. Keep em' coming!

[okits]

Do what feels right to you, not what someone else thinks you should.  "Should" is the devil.

Get married if/when you meet someone you want to marry.  Have kids when you are emotionally and financially ready to have kids.  The rest is gravy.

I think The Millionaire Next Door pretty clearly established that a like-minded, frugal spouse was a tremendous asset in achieving wealth. OTOH, a bad match can be financially damaging.

For me, marriage has been a mixed financial bag:  DH is a spendypants, but also a high earner, but also took us through several job losses in the first tech crash that hurt financially.  So after more than 20 years of ups and downs, what I can say is:

1.  I would have been far more frugal on my own, and if I had discovered MMM early enough would probably have been FIREd by now without him.
2.  I also would never have dared to buy/do some things that DH encouraged me to, and that I now wouldn't trade for the world.
3.  We have found ways to meet in the middle.  It was not always easy, and neither of us got 100% of what we wanted. 
4.  I would not trade him for being FIREd now.  Hands down -- this is a complete no-brainer.  That is just frankly trivial when compared to the family and the life we have built together.

I appreciate the candid response.

I get the feeling that a lot of the folks responding are NOT millennials and/or have been married for a while.

Now the question is, who has dated a woman (or man) born in the 1980s or more recent? Who has dated someone from the facebook/tinder/instagram generation? I have found that millennials are less focused, much less honor or integrity, less personal responsibility, and more entitled that any other generation. If you have, then you would see what we have to work with these days :) I am a millennial, so I get to criticize my own subset of people.

Personally, my net worth took off once I dramatically slowed the going clubbing, bars, high end restaurants, driving a sports car, etc. Finding a mate almost always requires one to be more social, and more social = more spending. It also takes TIME, time that could be used to grow ones FI .. such as reading books, having coffee with clients instead of cute first dates, working on investing/business etc. etc.

Interesting stuff guys. Keep em' coming!

Is that because they're Millennials or because they're young?  I'm not a Millennial but was definitely a lot of those things before growing up and maturing (finding a great partner also helped me mature).

To answer your original question, getting married helped me/us, financially (not FIRE yet, maybe halfway there).  We both had staches, both frugal-ish (lived below our means).  One family unit meant our individual strengths (one career took off, one enthusiastic personal finance nerd, one DIYer, one deal finder, etc.) benefited us both.  (Also, we love each other and are happy and have wonderful children.) Financially and emotionally you MUST marry the right person for you in order for the marriage to be a good thing for your happiness and finances.  Marrying the wrong partner can upend your entire life.

You don't seem eager to seriously partner up, so don't let anyone tell you it's what you should be doing.  Do what's right for you.  If you're happy, you've attained what most are still chasing.

[Northern gal]

Do what feels right to you, not what someone else thinks you should.  "Should" is the devil.

Get married if/when you meet someone you want to marry.  Have kids when you are emotionally and financially ready to have kids.  The rest is gravy.

I think The Millionaire Next Door pretty clearly established that a like-minded, frugal spouse was a tremendous asset in achieving wealth. OTOH, a bad match can be financially damaging.

For me, marriage has been a mixed financial bag:  DH is a spendypants, but also a high earner, but also took us through several job losses in the first tech crash that hurt financially.  So after more than 20 years of ups and downs, what I can say is:

1.  I would have been far more frugal on my own, and if I had discovered MMM early enough would probably have been FIREd by now without him.
2.  I also would never have dared to buy/do some things that DH encouraged me to, and that I now wouldn't trade for the world.
3.  We have found ways to meet in the middle.  It was not always easy, and neither of us got 100% of what we wanted. 
4.  I would not trade him for being FIREd now.  Hands down -- this is a complete no-brainer.  That is just frankly trivial when compared to the family and the life we have built together.

I appreciate the candid response.

I get the feeling that a lot of the folks responding are NOT millennials and/or have been married for a while.

Now the question is, who has dated a woman (or man) born in the 1980s or more recent? Who has dated someone from the facebook/tinder/instagram generation? I have found that millennials are less focused, much less honor or integrity, less personal responsibility, and more entitled that any other generation. If you have, then you would see what we have to work with these days :) I am a millennial, so I get to criticize my own subset of people.

Personally, my net worth took off once I dramatically slowed the going clubbing, bars, high end restaurants, driving a sports car, etc. Finding a mate almost always requires one to be more social, and more social = more spending. It also takes TIME, time that could be used to grow ones FI .. such as reading books, having coffee with clients instead of cute first dates, working on investing/business etc. etc.

Interesting stuff guys. Keep em' coming!

I am a 1980s build.

I don't mean to trivialise your problem but in my experience people who struggle to find a mate because of "all people of x gender are y", of "generation x are z", of geography x are z".... usually have some deeper patterns to work through.

Issues around scarcity thinking, trust, boundaries, giving up control, fear of rejection etc.

Marriage and relationship can be hard work. With the right person (& you only need 1) it is worth it

[Re3iRtH]

Do what feels right to you, not what someone else thinks you should.  "Should" is the devil.

Get married if/when you meet someone you want to marry.  Have kids when you are emotionally and financially ready to have kids.  The rest is gravy.

I think The Millionaire Next Door pretty clearly established that a like-minded, frugal spouse was a tremendous asset in achieving wealth. OTOH, a bad match can be financially damaging.

For me, marriage has been a mixed financial bag:  DH is a spendypants, but also a high earner, but also took us through several job losses in the first tech crash that hurt financially.  So after more than 20 years of ups and downs, what I can say is:

1.  I would have been far more frugal on my own, and if I had discovered MMM early enough would probably have been FIREd by now without him.
2.  I also would never have dared to buy/do some things that DH encouraged me to, and that I now wouldn't trade for the world.
3.  We have found ways to meet in the middle.  It was not always easy, and neither of us got 100% of what we wanted. 
4.  I would not trade him for being FIREd now.  Hands down -- this is a complete no-brainer.  That is just frankly trivial when compared to the family and the life we have built together.

I appreciate the candid response.

I get the feeling that a lot of the folks responding are NOT millennials and/or have been married for a while.

Now the question is, who has dated a woman (or man) born in the 1980s or more recent? Who has dated someone from the facebook/tinder/instagram generation? I have found that millennials are less focused, much less honor or integrity, less personal responsibility, and more entitled that any other generation. If you have, then you would see what we have to work with these days :) I am a millennial, so I get to criticize my own subset of people.

Personally, my net worth took off once I dramatically slowed the going clubbing, bars, high end restaurants, driving a sports car, etc. Finding a mate almost always requires one to be more social, and more social = more spending. It also takes TIME, time that could be used to grow ones FI .. such as reading books, having coffee with clients instead of cute first dates, working on investing/business etc. etc.

Interesting stuff guys. Keep em' coming!

I am a 1980s build.

I don't mean to trivialise your problem but in my experience people who struggle to find a mate because of "all people of x gender are y", of "generation x are z", of geography x are z".... usually have some deeper patterns to work through.

Issues around scarcity thinking, trust, boundaries, giving up control, fear of rejection etc.

Marriage and relationship can be hard work. With the right person (& you only need 1) it is worth it

You got me wrong. I don't (and never have) had trouble finding quality relationships or love. They tend to find me, pretty easily. In fact, I honestly wish it was HARDER to do so. Since I love challenges in general. That wasn't the premise of my question at all.

It becomes a risk/reward or business decision at this point. I look at upsides and downsides of each scenario, and I couldn't be in a better place than I am now (and for the last couple years), which just happens to be not in a committed relationship. Ironically, this makes finding one (if I so chose), easier than its even been.

But, this post wasn't about me. I was simply asking folks to share their experience with FI/RE with a spouse (positive/negative/etc.)

[Re3iRtH]

Do what feels right to you, not what someone else thinks you should.  "Should" is the devil.

Get married if/when you meet someone you want to marry.  Have kids when you are emotionally and financially ready to have kids.  The rest is gravy.

I think The Millionaire Next Door pretty clearly established that a like-minded, frugal spouse was a tremendous asset in achieving wealth. OTOH, a bad match can be financially damaging.

For me, marriage has been a mixed financial bag:  DH is a spendypants, but also a high earner, but also took us through several job losses in the first tech crash that hurt financially.  So after more than 20 years of ups and downs, what I can say is:

1.  I would have been far more frugal on my own, and if I had discovered MMM early enough would probably have been FIREd by now without him.
2.  I also would never have dared to buy/do some things that DH encouraged me to, and that I now wouldn't trade for the world.
3.  We have found ways to meet in the middle.  It was not always easy, and neither of us got 100% of what we wanted. 
4.  I would not trade him for being FIREd now.  Hands down -- this is a complete no-brainer.  That is just frankly trivial when compared to the family and the life we have built together.

I appreciate the candid response.

I get the feeling that a lot of the folks responding are NOT millennials and/or have been married for a while.

Now the question is, who has dated a woman (or man) born in the 1980s or more recent? Who has dated someone from the facebook/tinder/instagram generation? I have found that millennials are less focused, much less honor or integrity, less personal responsibility, and more entitled that any other generation. If you have, then you would see what we have to work with these days :) I am a millennial, so I get to criticize my own subset of people.

Personally, my net worth took off once I dramatically slowed the going clubbing, bars, high end restaurants, driving a sports car, etc. Finding a mate almost always requires one to be more social, and more social = more spending. It also takes TIME, time that could be used to grow ones FI .. such as reading books, having coffee with clients instead of cute first dates, working on investing/business etc. etc.

Interesting stuff guys. Keep em' coming!

Is that because they're Millennials or because they're young?  I'm not a Millennial but was definitely a lot of those things before growing up and maturing (finding a great partner also helped me mature).

To answer your original question, getting married helped me/us, financially (not FIRE yet, maybe halfway there).  We both had staches, both frugal-ish (lived below our means).  One family unit meant our individual strengths (one career took off, one enthusiastic personal finance nerd, one DIYer, one deal finder, etc.) benefited us both.  (Also, we love each other and are happy and have wonderful children.) Financially and emotionally you MUST marry the right person for you in order for the marriage to be a good thing for your happiness and finances.  Marrying the wrong partner can upend your entire life.

You don't seem eager to seriously partner up, so don't let anyone tell you it's what you should be doing.  Do what's right for you.  If you're happy, you've attained what most are still chasing.

Millennials or still young? Hmm.. I think social media plays a large (mostly negative) role.

Sounds like you have a great partner. That's awesome! Very balanced and wise advice from you, it is much appreciated.

[2Cent]

I do want children some day, though.

Just keep in mind that someday means before 40 but fertility rates will start reducing dramatically by 35. So this means you have less than 10 years to find someone, get to know the person, decide to marry, start having kids. For multiple kids it's good to keep a 2 year gap. This may be one of the reasons your parents are pushing you. You can't wait that long before the decision is made for you.

I find the notion that romance should just happen like it does in movies, quite wrong. If this is something you want, you should be active and focused. So not dating randomly, but focusing on potential spouses and being a bit strategic about it.

Marriage and kids are both very costly in terms of freedom(which is what getting money is all about). But they also can add meaning to life that is priceless.

[Goldielocks]

RE:  Millennial question -- my two cents is that your description is mostly because of "young", and people stay young to a bit later age now than when I was young, because of grad school and difficulty affording a home, etc.   By age 28, most of my friends were settling down into career, relationship, starting a family, or whatever..  That seems to be about 4 years younger than today.

Marriage costs -- according to a government study, the base cost for 2 people living together is 1.6x the cost for a single person.  (food, rent, etc).

However, being married for me ended up with becoming the single income supporting 4 people.  That definitely put off FIRE and even the ability to change jobs to something I would like better, for variety, or to move cities for work, or to not buy a large home.   It also meant a back up when one person is sick for a couple of years / disability, or no job, which means a lot longer path to FIRE for one person, and the ability to still FIRE safely for the other.

As a married person, the other person will often buy things (expensive things in your mind) that you would not.... with your money... or you buy more home than you would like if the decision was entirely your own.

As a married person ( I married young), I spent far, far , far less on going out, gym memberships, hair and nails, etc, as my friends. Staying in was a good and fun idea, and renovation became the hobby with available cash.  I even travelled less after being married, as we had different ideas on where to go, so did not travel.  Instead I saved and spent it on buying and renovating a home.   I own a lovely home now, and have a huge workshop filled with tools and camping gear.

Like MMM, once I had all my nest eggs pretty secure and saved up, and major savings done, I could plan my spending and life as I want... So I have the fitness classes, travel, and eating out in my budget now that I am 45, that I never did when I was 25.   And it is all because I was married when my friends were single. 

[Schaefer Light]

As other have noted marriage can beneficial for FIRE, but divorce is usually a pretty big set back, so choose your partner wisely, not as a means to an end.

What ^ said.  My wife and I did pretty well during the 5 years we were together as we were on the same page in terms of spending vs. saving.  Two incomes living under the same roof should make it possible to save more money than either person could save living alone.  Now she wants a divorce, and that is likely to cost me many years on the road to FIRE.  I'm going to have to give up half of what we saved while we were together (which I understand), and I'm also likely to be on the hook for a $1000 / month alimony payment for at least the next 2-3 years (which I don't understand and totally disagree with).

[Goldielocks]

As other have noted marriage can beneficial for FIRE, but divorce is usually a pretty big set back, so choose your partner wisely, not as a means to an end.

What ^ said.  My wife and I did pretty well during the 5 years we were together as we were on the same page in terms of spending vs. saving.  Two incomes living under the same roof should make it possible to save more money than either person could save living alone.  Now she wants a divorce, and that is likely to cost me many years on the road to FIRE.  I'm going to have to give up half of what we saved while we were together (which I understand), and I'm also likely to be on the hook for a $1000 / month alimony payment for at least the next 2-3 years (which I don't understand and totally disagree with).

If you don't have kids and she is able to support herself with her income, it should not be 2-3 years of support payments, surely?!  6 months maybe?

ETA... I looked up our region's spousal support guidelines, because I was curious:

Without Child Support Formula  (BC)
Amount ranges from 1.5 to 2% times the income difference between the spouses’ gross incomes times years of cohabitation, to a maximum of 50%. The upper end of the maximum range is capped at the amount that would result in equalization of the spouses’ net incomes.
Duration ranges from .5 to 1 year for each year of cohabitation. Duration will be indefinite (duration not specified) if the marriage is 20 years or longer, or if the marriage lasted five years or longer, when the years of marriage and age of support recipient (at separation) added together total 65 or more (the rule of 65).

Some very wide assumptions follows, based on formula above.  You could be making only $100k to her $50k, for all I know... because your regional calculation is different.
---------------------
So,   5 years together x  1.5% to 2% x (difference in incomes)...

If you were paying $12k per year in support, calculated assuming 10% x difference in incomes, means that you are making $120k more money than her.   e.g., you are making $200k and she makes $80k.  (or $150k to her $30k)

Duration of 0.5 years x 5 years = 2.5 years.  (uses lower amount, as assumes spouse was working in marriage and can support herself without added support).

Total paid out is $12k x 2.5 years = $30k additional, or 6% of a $200k annual salary.. for 2.5 years?

To my mind, this is likely small potatoes compared to dividing the nest egg in half, but you have many, many future earning years to recover...in fact, just going your own ways, you will cut out a lot of joint expenses, as you gain control over ALL of your own spending, and all your future MMM savings are for you alone, even if it is 6% less than before.   Likely you were paying all the household expenses before, and now you can downsize.

If so, you are much better off financially than before (excepting for the painful cut in retirement savings).  As you are MMM with high income, you will recover.  It just sucks if you had been planning on retiring in the next 3 years.

[YttriumNitrate]

Having a roommate definitely helps reduce expenses, however being married to that roommate doesn't necessarily reduce expenses further. This is especially true when both people are working and have similar incomes. With both people working, the savings on health insurance are minimal (if any), and tax wise the marriage penalty is very real.

[J Boogie]

I do want children some day, though.

If you want children, get married.  You're in your 30s so it's probably a good time to think about what you're looking for in a spouse. 

[Laura33]

Do what feels right to you, not what someone else thinks you should.  "Should" is the devil.

Get married if/when you meet someone you want to marry.  Have kids when you are emotionally and financially ready to have kids.  The rest is gravy.

I think The Millionaire Next Door pretty clearly established that a like-minded, frugal spouse was a tremendous asset in achieving wealth. OTOH, a bad match can be financially damaging.

For me, marriage has been a mixed financial bag:  DH is a spendypants, but also a high earner, but also took us through several job losses in the first tech crash that hurt financially.  So after more than 20 years of ups and downs, what I can say is:

1.  I would have been far more frugal on my own, and if I had discovered MMM early enough would probably have been FIREd by now without him.
2.  I also would never have dared to buy/do some things that DH encouraged me to, and that I now wouldn't trade for the world.
3.  We have found ways to meet in the middle.  It was not always easy, and neither of us got 100% of what we wanted. 
4.  I would not trade him for being FIREd now.  Hands down -- this is a complete no-brainer.  That is just frankly trivial when compared to the family and the life we have built together.

I appreciate the candid response.

I get the feeling that a lot of the folks responding are NOT millennials and/or have been married for a while.

Now the question is, who has dated a woman (or man) born in the 1980s or more recent? Who has dated someone from the facebook/tinder/instagram generation? I have found that millennials are less focused, much less honor or integrity, less personal responsibility, and more entitled that any other generation. If you have, then you would see what we have to work with these days :) I am a millennial, so I get to criticize my own subset of people.

Personally, my net worth took off once I dramatically slowed the going clubbing, bars, high end restaurants, driving a sports car, etc. Finding a mate almost always requires one to be more social, and more social = more spending. It also takes TIME, time that could be used to grow ones FI .. such as reading books, having coffee with clients instead of cute first dates, working on investing/business etc. etc.

Interesting stuff guys. Keep em' coming!

I am a 1980s build.

I don't mean to trivialise your problem but in my experience people who struggle to find a mate because of "all people of x gender are y", of "generation x are z", of geography x are z".... usually have some deeper patterns to work through.

Issues around scarcity thinking, trust, boundaries, giving up control, fear of rejection etc.

Marriage and relationship can be hard work. With the right person (& you only need 1) it is worth it

You got me wrong. I don't (and never have) had trouble finding quality relationships or love. They tend to find me, pretty easily. In fact, I honestly wish it was HARDER to do so. Since I love challenges in general. That wasn't the premise of my question at all.

It becomes a risk/reward or business decision at this point. I look at upsides and downsides of each scenario, and I couldn't be in a better place than I am now (and for the last couple years), which just happens to be not in a committed relationship. Ironically, this makes finding one (if I so chose), easier than its even been.

But, this post wasn't about me. I was simply asking folks to share their experience with FI/RE with a spouse (positive/negative/etc.)

1.  The bolded is bullshit.  It is cynical and disrespectful to your entire generation.  The older generation has always complained that the younger generation is irresponsible and flighty, just as the younger generation has always complained that their elders are a bunch of fuddy-duddies and can't possibly comprehend how things are so much harder today.  Yes, things are different -- they are always different -- and yet people are still people.  If your priority is truly to get married and have kids, there are many, many people out there who share the same priorities.

2.  The italicized is your problem.  Unless you are a royal scion or a character in a Jane Austen novel, marriage is not a "business decision."  Nor is a potential SO a "challenge" to be defeated -- that's another-notch-on-the-belt, not a long-term relationship.  If that is truly how you see it, then you do not actually want and are not ready for a long-term relationship, and so you are doing the right thing by staying single.

3.  IME, people who easily find companionship sometimes struggle to find the right companionship, because they have many many options, and so they can focus on a variety of things that don't necessarily have anything to do with shared values and long-term compatibility.  Every month you spend with the wrong person is a month you can't spend finding the right one.

4.  If your experience with your generation comes from clubbing, bars, and sports cars, well, those are not exactly signals that say "I am looking for a long-term relationship."  It's like going to a casino and then complaining that everyone you meet is a gambler.  If you want a long-term relationship, you need to go places where you are surrounded by people who share those values and goals, not the hot-or-not, swipe-left-or-right crew. 

[A Definite Beta Guy]

Do what feels right to you, not what someone else thinks you should.  "Should" is the devil.

Get married if/when you meet someone you want to marry.  Have kids when you are emotionally and financially ready to have kids.  The rest is gravy.

I think The Millionaire Next Door pretty clearly established that a like-minded, frugal spouse was a tremendous asset in achieving wealth. OTOH, a bad match can be financially damaging.

For me, marriage has been a mixed financial bag:  DH is a spendypants, but also a high earner, but also took us through several job losses in the first tech crash that hurt financially.  So after more than 20 years of ups and downs, what I can say is:

1.  I would have been far more frugal on my own, and if I had discovered MMM early enough would probably have been FIREd by now without him.
2.  I also would never have dared to buy/do some things that DH encouraged me to, and that I now wouldn't trade for the world.
3.  We have found ways to meet in the middle.  It was not always easy, and neither of us got 100% of what we wanted. 
4.  I would not trade him for being FIREd now.  Hands down -- this is a complete no-brainer.  That is just frankly trivial when compared to the family and the life we have built together.

I appreciate the candid response.

I get the feeling that a lot of the folks responding are NOT millennials and/or have been married for a while.

Now the question is, who has dated a woman (or man) born in the 1980s or more recent? Who has dated someone from the facebook/tinder/instagram generation? I have found that millennials are less focused, much less honor or integrity, less personal responsibility, and more entitled that any other generation. If you have, then you would see what we have to work with these days :) I am a millennial, so I get to criticize my own subset of people.

Personally, my net worth took off once I dramatically slowed the going clubbing, bars, high end restaurants, driving a sports car, etc. Finding a mate almost always requires one to be more social, and more social = more spending. It also takes TIME, time that could be used to grow ones FI .. such as reading books, having coffee with clients instead of cute first dates, working on investing/business etc. etc.

Interesting stuff guys. Keep em' coming!

Married Millennial here. Many friends and family are also married Millennials.

I can't really compare to prior generations...wasn't around for them. I assume you're a man who is interested in women, so correct me if I am wrong.

I see plenty of Millennial women who are both frugal, and make good wives. Actually, of the married ones, none demand McMansions, super-new cars, daily Starbucks, or anything like that.

So, they definitely exist.

Now, here's the part that you're not going to like: almost all of these women were already dating their husbands by the time they were in their teens, or early 20s. I think the upper age range for first date was 29, and the next one before that was 26, and everyone else was 25 or younger. I know a few girls who are a bit younger than me that are not married yet, that I think will make good wives, and they are all currently dating, and met their likely-future-husbands in the same early-mid 20s range.

Additionally, almost none of these women were the sort glamorized by culture, so you might not see them or might not be looking for them. They were not the kind of young people who lived in cities and went out frequently: they by and large lived exclusively in small towns or wealthy suburbs their entire lives. These types of young people have never been glamorized, by any culture, to my knowledge, so it's not social media: neither Friends nor Sex and the City was set in a suburb, because those places aren't exciting.

So:
1. Most of the women you might like are already taken (and have been for at least the 5 years)
2. As an extension of #1, most people in the dating market and people you will not like.
3. Your social life might be filtering women you might like out.

The same above applies to men I know.

Marriage has been helpful for FIRE, IMO. Extra income, shared expenses, someone I can tolerate living with and have stability living with as well.

[zephyr911]

There are a lot of variables that determine the impact, but I think the most important one is simply partner buy-in. If you share that goal, you will probably reach it faster together, through a combination of resource efficiencies and intangibles like moral support and encouragement.

My wife makes a third of what I do and could happily work till her 60s, but has still been a huge net positive for my FIRE quest just by covering some of our shared costs and (more importantly) encouraging me to focus my efforts on the things I care most about. IOW, when I start making choices that aren't going to get me to my goals, she's usually the one to call me out for it, and get me back on track.

That, and her background makes her naturally thrifty and she did a lot (along with MMM) to shame me out of my stoooopid spendypants ways, back when I was blowing most of my six-figure income on silly shit.

[Schaefer Light]

As other have noted marriage can beneficial for FIRE, but divorce is usually a pretty big set back, so choose your partner wisely, not as a means to an end.

What ^ said.  My wife and I did pretty well during the 5 years we were together as we were on the same page in terms of spending vs. saving.  Two incomes living under the same roof should make it possible to save more money than either person could save living alone.  Now she wants a divorce, and that is likely to cost me many years on the road to FIRE.  I'm going to have to give up half of what we saved while we were together (which I understand), and I'm also likely to be on the hook for a $1000 / month alimony payment for at least the next 2-3 years (which I don't understand and totally disagree with).

If you don't have kids and she is able to support herself with her income, it should not be 2-3 years of support payments, surely?!  6 months maybe?

I agree that it shouldn't be years of support, but that's how it works where I live.  In the US, the laws about alimony vary significantly from one state to another.  Even within the same state, it's technically up to the judge to decide how much the supporting spouse should pay and for how long.  I've heard horror stories about high earners having to pay their former spouses $50k a year even if that person is employed and earning a middle class salary.  Some states even award lifetime alimony (meaning the payments don't end until one spouse dies or the dependent spouse remarries) to the dependent spouse.  The OP might want to check to see if he lives in such a state ;). 

After doing some research, Texas is the best place to live if you're worried about a divorce.  They don't allow alimony payments lasting more than 5 years and there is no alimony if the marriage lasts less than 10 years.

[2lazy2retire]

As other have noted marriage can beneficial for FIRE, but divorce is usually a pretty big set back, so choose your partner wisely, not as a means to an end.

What ^ said.  My wife and I did pretty well during the 5 years we were together as we were on the same page in terms of spending vs. saving.  Two incomes living under the same roof should make it possible to save more money than either person could save living alone.  Now she wants a divorce, and that is likely to cost me many years on the road to FIRE.  I'm going to have to give up half of what we saved while we were together (which I understand), and I'm also likely to be on the hook for a $1000 / month alimony payment for at least the next 2-3 years (which I don't understand and totally disagree with).

If you don't have kids and she is able to support herself with her income, it should not be 2-3 years of support payments, surely?!  6 months maybe?

I agree that it shouldn't be years of support, but that's how it works where I live.  In the US, the laws about alimony vary significantly from one state to another.  Even within the same state, it's technically up to the judge to decide how much the supporting spouse should pay and for how long.  I've heard horror stories about high earners having to pay their former spouses $50k a year even if that person is employed and earning a middle class salary.  Some states even award lifetime alimony (meaning the payments don't end until one spouse dies or the dependent spouse remarries) to the dependent spouse.  The OP might want to check to see if he lives in such a state ;).

What happens in the case of divorce after ER, if the earning spouse has retired early after years on a high income with a SAHP, is the earner expected to return to work to pay alimony?

[rubybeth]

If you have a partner who isn't a big spender but earns a decent income and is on board with the goal to retire early, I think being married can be a benefit. Having combined incomes and working toward financial goals together can be nice, the feeling of accomplishment being shared. But disagreeing about money/spending is also no fun, and you'll likely never agree 100% on everything. I don't think being married or not really makes a difference--if you are just dating but see your partner spend on something you think is stupid, you can be like, "Well, it's their money," but I think your respect for them may go down if you think it's really dumb.

Kids will likely have the biggest impact on your ability to save--there are less expensive ways to raise kids, but the little things add up, especially if one parent stays home (loss of income) or you have to pay for child care (hugely expensive, somewhat depending on where you live).

[Schaefer Light]

What happens in the case of divorce after ER, if the earning spouse has retired early after years on a high income with a SAHP, is the earner expected to return to work to pay alimony?

In that case, I believe the formerly high earning spouse won't owe the SAHP any money since he's not bringing in any income at the time of the divorce.  Now, he may well still have to go back to work just to support himself due to splitting his marital assets with the SAHP.

[SachaFiscal]

It depends. I got married the first time just before I turned 30.  It was kind of a spontaneous move for me and I was just going for it. I didn't really think it through. I ended up getting divorced several years later after being pretty much the sole earner the whole time.  So I had to give up half of what I earned over a 6 year period (and these were high earning years).  Also I was unhappy with the marriage
 except maybe the first year or two but stuck it out because I thought it was the right thing to do.  Just recently I got married to someone who has a similar background as me and who I can totally be myself with.  I've never been loved as much as I have in this relationship. It so happens that we were of a similar financial status and spending/saving philosophy before we got married and we lived together for several years so we got to see what it would be like before we actually committed.  I think the most important aspect of our relationship is our ability to communicate and work through any issues that come up.  We also are logical people who can come to a compromise easily.

I think the safest would be to be with a person for several years before getting married.  It takes a while for the initial romance/chemistry to wear off and then you see what it would be like to be with that person for the rest of your life.  Sometimes this can take up to 3 years.  If I had done this with my first husband, I wouldn't have married him.  Ask yourself if you would still want to be with this person if their physical appearance changed drastically (e.g. got fat, got skinny, got old and wrinkly).  This person should be your best friend. Money is fought over by most couples. So be sure you both are on the same spending/saving page.  If you both are also of a similar networth/income that is even better.

[DarkandStormy]

Going to be a hit here financially, for me - fiancee is going through PSLF, so on her own her IBR is pretty minimal.  Her graduate school even reimburses most of it since her income is under a threshold.  She's in year 2 of public service so she still has 8 more years to go to have them forgiven.

Getting married will drastically increase her AGI on her W-2 if we file jointly.  Essentially my income will be taken into account so her IBR monthly payment will jump quite a bit.  That would also price her out of her school's reimbursement program.

If we file separately, BOTH of us will have to itemize (maybe I should be posting this in the Taxes sub forum) whereas now I can take the entirety of the mortgage interest deduction and she can take the standard deduction.  If we file separately, we'll have to each take part of the mortgage deduction and then add on charitable deductions/other itemized deductions.  We haven't yet run exact scenarios (2017 tax year will be our "test" year when we file) to see the exact cost.

This is probably a rarer cost of marriage "cost."  That said, we get to split utilities, rent/now mortgage, etc.  We are exploring options of a more frugal wedding and have contemplated simply eloping and hosting a house party the following week in lieu of the whole registry/wedding cost.

Both of us are frugal, though I have yet to introduce her to the MMM path to FIRE.

[FireHiker]

Yes and No. My first marriage was a disaster (financially and otherwise), and definitely hurt any chances for very early FIRE. My current marriage (9 years next month) is entirely different. We each make in excess of 6 figures and are like-minded when it comes to most things, including finances. This time around, my likelihood if FIRE is dramatically improved because of my choice in spouse. We will hit FIRE together long before I could on my own.

Picking the right partner is crucial in answering this question!

[robartsd]

Personally, my net worth took off once I dramatically slowed the going clubbing, bars, high end restaurants, driving a sports car, etc. Finding a mate almost always requires one to be more social, and more social = more spending. It also takes TIME, time that could be used to grow ones FI .. such as reading books, having coffee with clients instead of cute first dates, working on investing/business etc. etc.

Won't argue against the time cost of being social and finding a mate, but being more social does have to equate to more spending. Getting involve as a volunteer in causes that you care about is a great way to increase social exposure. It might take more time to meet as many people who might be looking for a mate, but it might also turn out that the people you do meet are more compatible with your values and goals.

[Last Night]

Wife is born in 1985.

Has made FI a much easier goal to attain through a good job and not being a big spender.

Haven't studies proven time and time again that married people are better off than single people, even accounting for kids, etc...

[DTaggart]

Is getting married bad for FI/RE?

As others have pointed out, it depends entirely on the people involved.

I have been getting some pressure from parents/others about "settling down and having kids".

One SURE thing that is bad for FI/RE is doing things for no other reason then other people think you should.

[zephyr911]

Now the question is, who has dated a woman (or man) born in the 1980s or more recent? Who has dated someone from the facebook/tinder/instagram generation? I have found that millennials are less focused, much less honor or integrity, less personal responsibility, and more entitled that any other generation. If you have, then you would see what we have to work with these days :) I am a millennial, so I get to criticize my own subset of people.

I'm thinking of all the times I've defended Millennials against this kind of generalization, except it was from Boomers or the odd Gen-X Philistine. I got Forrest Whitaker eye while reading yours because I don't often see M's trashing-talking M's... but I get it. Hope you don't mind an overlong response, since I mean it in the best way possible.
People have been saying stuff like this for as long as we've had the concept of a "generation", and they've always been mistaken... but for understandable reasons.
The main one is that you're comparing Millennials in their 20s to X'ers in their 30s and 40s, Boomers in their 60s, and so on, in their current phase of life, instead of doing it on an equal footing. Guess what? We were ALL unfocused, emotional, irrational, silly, and irresponsible to a degree, when we were up-and-coming. Shit, I almost flunked out of college in Seattle in the 1990s (woo grunge music!) through a combination of untreated depression and garden-variety laziness. I was the smart kid who infuriated most of his teachers and professors throughout his school career by failing to live up to his potential, always off dreaming or sketching or writing poetry or cranking up the music instead of studying - and Gen X as a whole was commonly dismissed for those things.
Today, I'm a key member of an Army general's civil service staff, a reasonably successful reserve officer probably making Lt Col soon, a managing partner in one investment startup and a got-dam CEO of another, about to (once again) report market-beating quarterly returns to my shareholders while announcing another acquisition.
And yet, I could name countless peers who exceeded the Boomers' dismal expectations of our generation so wildly that I don't think the above are impressive. This is just what happens when time passes, you live a little, and you realize it's worth working harder to do/have/experience the things you care about.
The ages-old fallacy is that too many of us forget what we were like in our youth, what our faults were, and how we were dismissed by our elders for what ultimately turned out to be transient foibles. We compare our generation or the one before it to the one after it in real time and we handwave away the very real differences wrought by age and experience.
Millennials are still working through that stuff just like my friends and I did in the mid-2000s, and yet... they're already popping up in C-suite jobs, on boards of corporations and global nonprofits, bringing new vision and badly needed paradigm shifts to the economy, to social services, and to our culture. Don't sell your team short. For better or worse, you'll be running stuff someday... may as well start preparing now.

Personally, my net worth took off once I dramatically slowed the going clubbing, bars, high end restaurants, driving a sports car, etc.

As did the net worth of past generations, when they grew up enough to make more responsible choices. I was a broke dumbass at 31 but I'll hit 40 with half a million invested and my last full-time job in the rearview. Maybe then I'll dig up my flannel shirts and guitars again ;)

[hops]

Now the question is, who has dated a woman (or man) born in the 1980s or more recent? Who has dated someone from the facebook/tinder/instagram generation? I have found that millennials are less focused, much less honor or integrity, less personal responsibility, and more entitled that any other generation. If you have, then you would see what we have to work with these days :) I am a millennial, so I get to criticize my own subset of people.

These generalizations about millennials are baffling to me in light of the other thread you started about physicians. Surely you have millennial colleagues whose character you don't question. My millennial fiancee, like so many of her peers, goes to the hospital every day and works hard to saves lives. You know what kind of focus and personal responsibility that entails. And they're no different than millions of others, they just have jobs like yours.

Their personal lives can be interesting. Those who know what they really value in relationships, and who desire equal partnerships, tend to find them eventually. The unhappiest ones are those who think they're owed a particular type of partner on the basis of their personal achievements. Incidentally, those also tend to be the ones who hold women to odd standards while not taking stock of what they themselves are, and aren't, bringing to the table. That kind of immaturity isn't limited to, but is not infrequently found in, the guys who are still under their parents' thumbs.

[zephyr911]

One SURE thing that is bad for FI/RE is doing things for no other reason then other people think you should.

I wish this forum had a "like" button so I could mash it for this comment. Like, unlike, just so I can like again, repeat. <3

The best thing DW did for me was ask my why some of my choices didn't line up with my stated goals and priorities. I was like "you know what... damn, you're right". That probably did more to get me on track (finally) than any other single force or influence in all of my life.

[Cromacster]

Now the question is, who has dated a woman (or man) born in the 1980s or more recent? Who has dated someone from the facebook/tinder/instagram generation? I have found that millennials are less focused, much less honor or integrity, less personal responsibility, and more entitled that any other generation. If you have, then you would see what we have to work with these days :) I am a millennial, so I get to criticize my own subset of people.

I'm thinking of all the times I've defended Millennials against this kind of generalization, except it was from Boomers or the odd Gen-X Philistine. I got Forrest Whitaker eye while reading yours because I don't often see M's trashing-talking M's... but I get it. Hope you don't mind an overlong response, since I mean it in the best way possible.
People have been saying stuff like this for as long as we've had the concept of a "generation", and they've always been mistaken... but for understandable reasons.
The main one is that you're comparing Millennials in their 20s to X'ers in their 30s and 40s, Boomers in their 60s, and so on, in their current phase of life, instead of doing it on an equal footing. Guess what? We were ALL unfocused, emotional, irrational, silly, and irresponsible to a degree, when we were up-and-coming. Shit, I almost flunked out of college in Seattle in the 1990s (woo grunge music!) through a combination of untreated depression and garden-variety laziness. I was the smart kid who infuriated most of his teachers and professors throughout his school career by failing to live up to his potential, always off dreaming or sketching or writing poetry or cranking up the music instead of studying - and Gen X as a whole was commonly dismissed for those things.
Today, I'm a key member of an Army general's civil service staff, a reasonably successful reserve officer probably making Lt Col soon, a managing partner in one investment startup and a got-dam CEO of another, about to (once again) report market-beating quarterly returns to my shareholders while announcing another acquisition.
And yet, I could name countless peers who exceeded the Boomers' dismal expectations of our generation so wildly that I don't think the above are impressive. This is just what happens when time passes, you live a little, and you realize it's worth working harder to do/have/experience the things you care about.
The ages-old fallacy is that too many of us forget what we were like in our youth, what our faults were, and how we were dismissed by our elders for what ultimately turned out to be transient foibles. We compare our generation or the one before it to the one after it in real time and we handwave away the very real differences wrought by age and experience.
Millennials are still working through that stuff just like my friends and I did in the mid-2000s, and yet... they're already popping up in C-suite jobs, on boards of corporations and global nonprofits, bringing new vision and badly needed paradigm shifts to the economy, to social services, and to our culture. Don't sell your team short. For better or worse, you'll be running stuff someday... may as well start preparing now.

Personally, my net worth took off once I dramatically slowed the going clubbing, bars, high end restaurants, driving a sports car, etc.

As did the net worth of past generations, when they grew up enough to make more responsible choices. I was a broke dumbass at 31 but I'll hit 40 with half a million invested and my last full-time job in the rearview. Maybe then I'll dig up my flannel shirts and guitars again ;)

Good post, I think I'll have to add this to the best post I read today thread.

Also, I saw the Melvins live twice in the past 2 weeks or so.  Once in Seattle and once in Minneapolis.  Definitely a blast back to my days running around wearing my ripped jeans and flannel shirts haha (although I still wear flannel on the regular).

[travelawyer]

Getting married will drastically increase her AGI on her W-2 if we file jointly.  Essentially my income will be taken into account so her IBR monthly payment will jump quite a bit.  That would also price her out of her school's reimbursement program.

If we file separately, BOTH of us will have to itemize (maybe I should be posting this in the Taxes sub forum) whereas now I can take the entirety of the mortgage interest deduction and she can take the standard deduction.  If we file separately, we'll have to each take part of the mortgage deduction and then add on charitable deductions/other itemized deductions.  We haven't yet run exact scenarios (2017 tax year will be our "test" year when we file) to see the exact cost.

Have you considered not getting "married" married? Have a wedding and tell people you are married but don't do the actual legal paperwork.  You could possibly get a civil union to address things like child custody and health care rights (talk to a family lawyer who specializes in LQBTQ issues).  I tried to convince my husband to do this (at the time fiance) but he was just too traditional to accept it.  Now that he's more on-board with FIRE and realizes how much those extra taxes cost us, I think he feels differently, but rather than having a divorce-for-tax-purposes I'm just waiting it out until we get a marriage tax benefit when FIREed.

I've never done the actual math, but for a high earner and a medium earner the penalty is huge.  Child tax credit, personal exemption phase-outs, mortgage deduction, additional medicare tax, net investment income tax, plus the actual tax rate waterfalls....

[DarkandStormy]

Getting married will drastically increase her AGI on her W-2 if we file jointly.  Essentially my income will be taken into account so her IBR monthly payment will jump quite a bit.  That would also price her out of her school's reimbursement program.

If we file separately, BOTH of us will have to itemize (maybe I should be posting this in the Taxes sub forum) whereas now I can take the entirety of the mortgage interest deduction and she can take the standard deduction.  If we file separately, we'll have to each take part of the mortgage deduction and then add on charitable deductions/other itemized deductions.  We haven't yet run exact scenarios (2017 tax year will be our "test" year when we file) to see the exact cost.

Have you considered not getting "married" married? Have a wedding and tell people you are married but don't do the actual legal paperwork.  You could possibly get a civil union to address things like child custody and health care rights (talk to a family lawyer who specializes in LQBTQ issues).  I tried to convince my husband to do this (at the time fiance) but he was just too traditional to accept it.  Now that he's more on-board with FIRE and realizes how much those extra taxes cost us, I think he feels differently, but rather than having a divorce-for-tax-purposes I'm just waiting it out until we get a marriage tax benefit when FIREed.

I've never done the actual math, but for a high earner and a medium earner the penalty is huge.  Child tax credit, personal exemption phase-outs, mortgage deduction, additional medicare tax, net investment income tax, plus the actual tax rate waterfalls....

We have not.  That is an option we haven't yet explored - we're planning for a '19 wedding anyway to delay some of the financial burden WRT taxes.  I think we will run a couple of "what if" scenarios based on our '17 personal returns - MFS v. MFJ and then see how her IBR payments would change with each.

[obstinate]

It is not possible to answer this question generally. Depends on what your lifestyle before, lifestyle after, the financial state and inclinations of your chosen partner, etc.

[Ann]

Personally, my net worth took off once I dramatically slowed the going clubbing, bars, high end restaurants, driving a sports car, etc. Finding a mate almost always requires one to be more social, and more social = more spending. It also takes TIME, time that could be used to grow ones FI .. such as reading books, having coffee with clients instead of cute first dates, working on investing/business etc. etc.

. . . later post . . .

You got me wrong. I don't (and never have) had trouble finding quality relationships or love. They tend to find me, pretty easily. In fact, I honestly wish it was HARDER to do so. Since I love challenges in general. That wasn't the premise of my question at all.

I know this isn't your question, but if you decide to keep dating, perhaps you could challenge yourself to approach dating in a more Mustachian fashion.  No clubbing,  bars, high end restaurants, or sports cars (!?).

But frankly, I do like being alone most of the time.  And relationships do take time. 

[DarkandStormy]

Now the question is, who has dated a woman (or man) born in the 1980s or more recent? Who has dated someone from the facebook/tinder/instagram generation? I have found that millennials are less focused, much less honor or integrity, less personal responsibility, and more entitled that any other generation. If you have, then you would see what we have to work with these days :) I am a millennial, so I get to criticize my own subset of people.

LOL "I'm not an expert in the area but I know some people from this generation so this totally validates my viewpoint."  Good look.

My fiancee and I were born in the late '80's - actually met on Tinder before we both realized it was an app designed for hook-ups and not dating, like a Match or any of those other sites that make you pay.  Guess we have less honor and integrity for meeting that way?

We have a good group of friends with a diverse set of skills, jobs, passions, etc.  I'd say they're all good quality people.  Not sure any are entitled.  Just my $.02 and experience.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/baby-boomers-millennials-more-entitled-older-generation-savings-homeowner-income-study-house-car-a7742411.html

[meatface]

Marriage is helping me with FIRE, because:
1. My wife makes more money than I do.
2. My father-in-law gave us really sound financial advice before MMM existed.
3. My parents-in-law take care of our babies, thereby letting us avoid paying childcare costs.

[zephyr911]

Good post, I think I'll have to add this to the best post I read today thread.

Also, I saw the Melvins live twice in the past 2 weeks or so.  Once in Seattle and once in Minneapolis.  Definitely a blast back to my days running around wearing my ripped jeans and flannel shirts haha (although I still wear flannel on the regular).

Ahh, the Twin Cities. Seeing a show at First Avenue is on my bucket list.

[Inaya]

Now, here's the part that you're not going to like: almost all of these women were already dating their husbands by the time they were in their teens, or early 20s. I think the upper age range for first date was 29, and the next one before that was 26, and everyone else was 25 or younger. I know a few girls who are a bit younger than me that are not married yet, that I think will make good wives, and they are all currently dating, and met their likely-future-husbands in the same early-mid 20s range.

This is interesting because my husband and I (we're both Oregon Trail millennials, '87 and '85 respectively) met during and dated through high school. And college. And did eventually get married. Is this observation purely anecdotal, or have you seen some research that indicates a similar trend?

[partgypsy]

As other have noted marriage can beneficial for FIRE, but divorce is usually a pretty big set back, so choose your partner wisely, not as a means to an end.

What ^ said.  My wife and I did pretty well during the 5 years we were together as we were on the same page in terms of spending vs. saving.  Two incomes living under the same roof should make it possible to save more money than either person could save living alone.  Now she wants a divorce, and that is likely to cost me many years on the road to FIRE.  I'm going to have to give up half of what we saved while we were together (which I understand), and I'm also likely to be on the hook for a $1000 / month alimony payment for at least the next 2-3 years (which I don't understand and totally disagree with).

If you don't have kids and she is able to support herself with her income, it should not be 2-3 years of support payments, surely?!  6 months maybe?

I agree that it shouldn't be years of support, but that's how it works where I live.  In the US, the laws about alimony vary significantly from one state to another.  Even within the same state, it's technically up to the judge to decide how much the supporting spouse should pay and for how long.  I've heard horror stories about high earners having to pay their former spouses $50k a year even if that person is employed and earning a middle class salary.  Some states even award lifetime alimony (meaning the payments don't end until one spouse dies or the dependent spouse remarries) to the dependent spouse.  The OP might want to check to see if he lives in such a state ;).

What happens in the case of divorce after ER, if the earning spouse has retired early after years on a high income with a SAHP, is the earner expected to return to work to pay alimony?

Based on my (very limited) understanding, alimony is based on earnings. So if the person has no earnings, the other spouse wouldn't be entitled to alimony. but they would be entitled to some portion up to half of assets.

[partgypsy]

Now, here's the part that you're not going to like: almost all of these women were already dating their husbands by the time they were in their teens, or early 20s. I think the upper age range for first date was 29, and the next one before that was 26, and everyone else was 25 or younger. I know a few girls who are a bit younger than me that are not married yet, that I think will make good wives, and they are all currently dating, and met their likely-future-husbands in the same early-mid 20s range.

This is interesting because my husband and I (we're both Oregon Trail millennials, '87 and '85 respectively) met during and dated through high school. And college. And did eventually get married. Is this observation purely anecdotal, or have you seen some research that indicates a similar trend?

I was wondering that myself. My nephew and his new wife, grew up in the Midwest suburbs. High school sweethearts, both with degrees, good jobs and a house, by age 25. Ex's youngest brother also married his high school sweetheart, and his collection of friends have a number of couple friends who married "young".

I have no doubt there are women out there with values similar to your own, just a matter of finding them.

[Re3iRtH]

Now the question is, who has dated a woman (or man) born in the 1980s or more recent? Who has dated someone from the facebook/tinder/instagram generation? I have found that millennials are less focused, much less honor or integrity, less personal responsibility, and more entitled that any other generation. If you have, then you would see what we have to work with these days :) I am a millennial, so I get to criticize my own subset of people.

I'm thinking of all the times I've defended Millennials against this kind of generalization, except it was from Boomers or the odd Gen-X Philistine. I got Forrest Whitaker eye while reading yours because I don't often see M's trashing-talking M's... but I get it. Hope you don't mind an overlong response, since I mean it in the best way possible.
People have been saying stuff like this for as long as we've had the concept of a "generation", and they've always been mistaken... but for understandable reasons.
The main one is that you're comparing Millennials in their 20s to X'ers in their 30s and 40s, Boomers in their 60s, and so on, in their current phase of life, instead of doing it on an equal footing. Guess what? We were ALL unfocused, emotional, irrational, silly, and irresponsible to a degree, when we were up-and-coming. Shit, I almost flunked out of college in Seattle in the 1990s (woo grunge music!) through a combination of untreated depression and garden-variety laziness. I was the smart kid who infuriated most of his teachers and professors throughout his school career by failing to live up to his potential, always off dreaming or sketching or writing poetry or cranking up the music instead of studying - and Gen X as a whole was commonly dismissed for those things.
Today, I'm a key member of an Army general's civil service staff, a reasonably successful reserve officer probably making Lt Col soon, a managing partner in one investment startup and a got-dam CEO of another, about to (once again) report market-beating quarterly returns to my shareholders while announcing another acquisition.
And yet, I could name countless peers who exceeded the Boomers' dismal expectations of our generation so wildly that I don't think the above are impressive. This is just what happens when time passes, you live a little, and you realize it's worth working harder to do/have/experience the things you care about.
The ages-old fallacy is that too many of us forget what we were like in our youth, what our faults were, and how we were dismissed by our elders for what ultimately turned out to be transient foibles. We compare our generation or the one before it to the one after it in real time and we handwave away the very real differences wrought by age and experience.
Millennials are still working through that stuff just like my friends and I did in the mid-2000s, and yet... they're already popping up in C-suite jobs, on boards of corporations and global nonprofits, bringing new vision and badly needed paradigm shifts to the economy, to social services, and to our culture. Don't sell your team short. For better or worse, you'll be running stuff someday... may as well start preparing now.

Personally, my net worth took off once I dramatically slowed the going clubbing, bars, high end restaurants, driving a sports car, etc.

As did the net worth of past generations, when they grew up enough to make more responsible choices. I was a broke dumbass at 31 but I'll hit 40 with half a million invested and my last full-time job in the rearview. Maybe then I'll dig up my flannel shirts and guitars again ;)

I totally understand what you are saying. Fact is, younger generations of the past DID NOT have access to social media, which in my option results in a slew of psychological issues (need for validation, unhealthy competition, self esteem problems, not to mention the time suck) etc.
Those generations also didn't have this amount of choices when it comes to mates, due to the internet and globalization of communication. Sometimes, its what is NOT present that makes all the difference for the better. People are impressionable and gullible. That won't change.

[Re3iRtH]

Now, here's the part that you're not going to like: almost all of these women were already dating their husbands by the time they were in their teens, or early 20s. I think the upper age range for first date was 29, and the next one before that was 26, and everyone else was 25 or younger. I know a few girls who are a bit younger than me that are not married yet, that I think will make good wives, and they are all currently dating, and met their likely-future-husbands in the same early-mid 20s range.

This is interesting because my husband and I (we're both Oregon Trail millennials, '87 and '85 respectively) met during and dated through high school. And college. And did eventually get married. Is this observation purely anecdotal, or have you seen some research that indicates a similar trend?

I was wondering that myself. My nephew and his new wife, grew up in the Midwest suburbs. High school sweethearts, both with degrees, good jobs and a house, by age 25. Ex's youngest brother also married his high school sweetheart, and his collection of friends have a number of couple friends who married "young".

I have no doubt there are women out there with values similar to your own, just a matter of finding them.

This has been 100% my experience. I tell people this all the time. You either get married early (age 18-22) before someone had a chance to go through 10-15 sexual partners, be dumped a few times, and become jaded about the world. If not, then you hit your 30s, and if you're a high income earner, with a very nice set up that lets you do what you want, with whom you want, where you want etc., you begin to wonder if the potential upside is worth the potential risk. The folks that have been married their whole life, just have NO IDEA what those in their teens and 20s are up to these days.

Some very interesting responses on this thread. For those that stayed married, the notions are mostly towards the positive side. For those who got divorced, the notions are uniformly negative with respect to FI/RE.

I find it adorable, those have tried to deduce my gender on this thread, some female and some male :)

[DarkandStormy]

I totally understand what you are saying. Fact is, younger generations of the past DID NOT have access to social media, which in my option results in a slew of psychological issues (need for validation, unhealthy competition, self esteem problems, not to mention the time suck) etc.
Those generations also didn't have this amount of choices when it comes to mates, due to the internet and globalization of communication. Sometimes, its what is NOT present that makes all the difference for the better. People are impressionable and gullible. That won't change.

Another misguided generalization.

Gen X spends the most time on social media - https://news.fastcompany.com/this-generation-spends-the-most-time-on-social-media-and-its-not-the-millennials-4028950