Author Topic: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman  (Read 18823 times)

cthulhu

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is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« on: October 15, 2012, 03:24:14 PM »
Hi,

I would love to buy/sell more of my stuff used and craigslist is obviously the premier marketplace for things of that nature.  The problem is, as a single woman without friends i can drag along to exchanges, i, so far, have never been able to convince myself its safe to meet random strangers off the internet.

Does anyone have brilliant ways they resolve this and help themselves find that nice middle ground of selling/buying without showing up in random gas station parking lots, with cash, to meet strangers?  any tips appreciated,

Al

sol

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 03:31:33 PM »
Safety is an illusion, remember?

There have been a handful of reported cases of CL assaults and burglaries, but the gender of the victim seems less relevant than the neighborhood in which the transaction was conducted.

Realistically, if someone is going to pull a weapon and do you harm, being accompanies by another person isn't going to help.  If criminals really want to get you, they're going to get four or five guys together to do the deed and taking your brother along isn't going to deter them.

Stick to well lit public places in good neighborhoods, and you'll be fine.

kkbmustang

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 03:46:17 PM »
In my first few CL exchanges, I met potential buyers in a Costco parking lot. That got annoying, so I moved to my house, even when the Hubs wasn't home. I have yet to have an issue. Do the transaction on your front porch if you're really concerned or just go to a public place.

fidgiegirl

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2012, 03:51:24 PM »
Same here - many transactions, no problems with safety whatsoever.  You don't have to pick a random gas station, pick a well lit location, be discreet if acquiring the cash.

flyfamily

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2012, 04:10:22 PM »
I'm not single. However, my husband is often out of town. A few things that I've done:

- Instead of selling clothing, accessories, shoes on CL, I will take to a consignment shop for resale
- Items that are mobile that will require meeting someone, I keep to a restaurant (think like somewhere with outside seating like a Starbucks) and arrive early. There are other people around, the buyer also does not see what vehicle I got out of, and I watch them drive off and out of sight before getting into mine. (Okay, of course, if they wanted they could hide out somewhere and look for me.. but it does reduce the risk).
- I never give out my address, email address. I request on response, a phone number. I will not respond to someone who emails and wants to converse back and forth like that via email. If they provide phone number, then I'll give them a call or message with them. I put this clearly in my ad, so of course, the serious inquiries will honor it. This way, they can't look me up by email address on social media, etc. or look up my address (my email address has my name in it).. they only have my first name. Now, one alternative, if you used CL a lot - would be to set up a dummy account that is not tied to anything else that you do on the internet.
- If someone absolutely has to come to the house. If it's something sizeable, I move it to the hallway the night before. And then, I'll move it outside just before they arrive. Then, wait outside where they never see the interior of my home. I also ask if a neighbor can either be outside with me or within eyesight and/or try to coordinate in the early evenings when neighbors are coming hoem from work and there's more neighborhood activity (vs. middle of the school day when not many people are home). If it's something that needs to be plugged in, our house has an outlet by the front entry, so I'll use that. If this isn't the case for you, then you could use an extension cord out the front door or from garage outlet (keep garage door closed so they don't see what you've got, where your security system pad is, etc). The point is to reduce risk of someone being inside of the house with you - alone.
- I also do not give them the address until that day or a few hours before, if possible. It REALLY has to be something of value for me to even consider a transaction that would require them to come to the house, to begin with. In fact, I've actually donated couches that I could have made money on, because A) I couldn't move myself and B) that's an example of something that I really couldn't move into the front entry and then have to haul it back indoors if the person didn't want it. I just don't want people in my house, alone with me, that bad.. 

Also.. little things I also do (general rule of thumb) include leaving a pair of my husband's old boots by the door. You can pick up a pair well worn at Goodwill. There's been a few times that I even faked that my husband was inside.

Hope this helps.

PJ

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2012, 04:28:39 PM »
I'm a single woman, and just starting out trying to sell things on Craigslist.  Luckily my work is pretty central in the city, so I can offer the option of meeting near my work.  If that isn't convenient, there's a strip mall with a coffee shop a short walk from here. 

But I guess I'd also be willing to meet at home if I was selling something not easily transported, because I have 2 large dogs, one of whom is, well, frankly, crazy.  As in, needs-medication-for-it crazy. The other one is a real sweetheart but is a pitbull - so this would be the rare time when the ridiculous stereotypes about pitties works in my favour.  So I could honestly say to the person that they will have to stay outside, and the angry barking face at the front window would back that up.  Then all I'd have to do is drag the item out onto the front steps.  Wouldn't work for a couch or anything like that, but pretty much all my other furniture is moveable by me.

Bakari

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2012, 04:49:34 PM »
Just about as safe as being in a supermarket, or the DMV, or being on a bus, or being in any other of the thousands of places we potentially interact with strangers.

The key is to remember that the whole point of "news" is to report things that are rare, and therefor interesting. 
It may not be literally accurate, but statistically speaking it is safe to assume that anything you see on or read about in the news never happens.

You will never hear about someone getting heart disease on the news.  Not because it isn't significant, but because it happens ALL THE TIME - 5 million per year.  That makes it mundane and commonplace and not newsworthy.

You don't hear about car crashes (unless it causes a traffic jam, and then only in the context of the traffic report), because, again, they happen constantly - 16,500 EVERY DAY (only counts ones significant enough to get reported).  Half of those involve injury.  Car crashes are the single largest cause of death of all American's under 40, and remains in the top 10 for all ages.

Now, maybe my Googling has not been through enough, but as far as I can tell the grand total number of people who have been killed responding to a Craigslist ad is: Two.
Not per day.  Not per year.  Two.  Ever.

You are thousands, maybe millions of times more likely to die or be injured driving to someone's house then you are to be killed or injured by the person when you get there.

And, incidentally, while I'm on the subject:
Again, going by actual statistics, not just rumor, hearsay, and assumption, the reality is that more men are attacked by strangers than women.  Contrary to popular belief, it is actually more dangerous for a man to walk alone at night in a bad neighborhood than it is for a woman. 

As to Craigslist sales, specifically: in 6 years of selling things by leaving them outside and asking the buyer to drop the money in the cat door, only once has anything disappeared without the person paying.  If you grant people trust, they tend to live up to it.

April

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 04:59:44 PM »
I've bought and sold many things on craigslist.  I too am a single woman. My dog is a yorkie, so not too initimidating, lol.

My tips:

  • If it's something you can put in your car easily, pick a spot near your house that is well lit and offer to meet there.  My place of choice is a Boston Market at a very busy intersection with great lighting and even a lobby I can stand in if it's hot or cold out.
  • My next favorite is offering to meet at the Bank of America near where I work as it's sometimes closer to the person wanting to buy something.  Other than this exception, I make it a rule to never drive to meet womeone "half-way" or deliver anything.  why? people rarely committ 100% to buying something signt unseen and the few times I've done it  I've wished I hadn't.
    • If It's something ar your house don't give out your address until they are on their way.  Give them your number and ask them to call when they are on their way.  8/10 times they never call you back.
    • If you can take the item into your garage and then just open up the garage do so. 
      • Also I don't have a problem letting a woman inside my house, but won't if it's a guy. 
      • I strongly suggest also having pepper spray on you, just in case, no matter where you meet or who you are meeting.

        I've done hundreds of transactions and have never had a problem with safety.  Don't let fear stop you from craigslisting, just be cautious and aware.

skyrefuge

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 05:02:28 PM »
WTF?  You're Cthulhu.  Have you never looked at yourself in the mirror?  I think you'll be fine.  In fact, I bet the other party in the transaction will simply drop their money/merchandise on the ground before shitting themselves and fleeing in terror, and you'll never even have to make an actual exchange.

MooreBonds

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2012, 07:57:49 PM »
- I never give out my address, email address. I request on response, a phone number. I will not respond to someone who emails and wants to converse back and forth like that via email. If they provide phone number, then I'll give them a call or message with them. I put this clearly in my ad, so of course, the serious inquiries will honor it. This way, they can't look me up by email address on social media, etc. or look up my address (my email address has my name in it).. they only have my first name. Now, one alternative, if you used CL a lot - would be to set up a dummy account that is not tied to anything else that you do on the internet.

While as a single guy, I can never quite know the feeling of what it is like for a female to be trusting of complete strangers....I will say that I would suggest setting up a craigslist e-mail account specifically for just that purpose, rather than requiring a phone number.

Although it isn't quite as common, I have received numerous spam text messages and e-mails to my cell phone because I made the mistake of responding to a CL ad with my phone number. As such, if I were looking to buy stuff or sell it using CL, I would be a little reluctant of replying to an ad (or a buyer) that required or asked for a phone number right off of the bat - especially if it looked like a great deal (they often post deals that almost look too good to be true...but not quite that obvious - and since I have found several great deals off of CL, just because it's a very good price doesn't necessarily mean it's spam).

Self-employed-swami

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2012, 08:13:42 PM »
Geez, there are some super-paranoid people out there!

If someone wouldn't give me their address for a pick-up when we were going back and forth via e-mail, I wouldn't bother buying from you.  Nor would I buy from someone who was so paranoid as to not correspond via e-mail.

I'm a woman, and I've had bought and sold via Kijiji (not many people use craigslist in Canada) and I've never had an issue.  EVER.

I think meeting in public places is reasonable for some items, but if someone wanted me to plug the computer I was trying to buy, in on their front step, I'd leave. 

But hell, I've even picked up hitch hikers, and lived, so I might just be crazy dangerous.

igthebold

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2012, 06:59:31 AM »
WTF?  You're Cthulhu.  Have you never looked at yourself in the mirror?  I think you'll be fine.  In fact, I bet the other party in the transaction will simply drop their money/merchandise on the ground before shitting themselves and fleeing in terror, and you'll never even have to make an actual exchange.

Not to mention feeling the burning desire to write down their memoirs while all the time discouraging their readers from reading it and attempting to forget it ever happened.

Posthumane

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2012, 08:29:35 AM »
Geez, there are some super-paranoid people out there!

If someone wouldn't give me their address for a pick-up when we were going back and forth via e-mail, I wouldn't bother buying from you.  Nor would I buy from someone who was so paranoid as to not correspond via e-mail.

I'm a woman, and I've had bought and sold via Kijiji (not many people use craigslist in Canada) and I've never had an issue.  EVER.

I think meeting in public places is reasonable for some items, but if someone wanted me to plug the computer I was trying to buy, in on their front step, I'd leave. 

But hell, I've even picked up hitch hikers, and lived, so I might just be crazy dangerous.
I wonder if this is in part due to the difference in attitude between typical Americans and typical Canadians. I live in Canada as well, and I don't know of many people who worry about selling things out of their home or giving out their email address. Then again, I pick up hitch-hikers as well sometimes...

Norman Johnson

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2012, 08:37:33 AM »
Geez, there are some super-paranoid people out there!

If someone wouldn't give me their address for a pick-up when we were going back and forth via e-mail, I wouldn't bother buying from you.  Nor would I buy from someone who was so paranoid as to not correspond via e-mail.

I'm a woman, and I've had bought and sold via Kijiji (not many people use craigslist in Canada) and I've never had an issue.  EVER.

I think meeting in public places is reasonable for some items, but if someone wanted me to plug the computer I was trying to buy, in on their front step, I'd leave. 

But hell, I've even picked up hitch hikers, and lived, so I might just be crazy dangerous.
I wonder if this is in part due to the difference in attitude between typical Americans and typical Canadians. I live in Canada as well, and I don't know of many people who worry about selling things out of their home or giving out their email address. Then again, I pick up hitch-hikers as well sometimes...

I don't pick up hitchhikers (not after seeing the town crazy hitching and knowing what he's like), but I do use Kijiji all the time. I hate phoning people so I will do all my dealings over email. I've gone to people's houses and also had people come over and pick up things. When I was younger and single, I did go to public places to do these things, but at that time I was selling concert tickets to a heavy metal band. Different crowd then selling my son's old baby clothes or left over renovation supplies.

In the end, do what you need to do to be safe. It would be weird for me to have to plug in a computer on the front step, but people are weird and if I wanted the item bad enough, I would comply.

Bakari

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2012, 08:56:43 AM »
I wonder if this is in part due to the difference in attitude between typical Americans and typical Canadians. I live in Canada as well, and I don't know of many people who worry about selling things out of their home or giving out their email address. Then again, I pick up hitch-hikers as well sometimes...

American media is totally obsessed, both in news reporting and in fiction, with crazy people who harm other people.  Its the topic of 1/2 our movies and TV shows, and any incident that happens anywhere gets reported all over the country, usually continuously for the next week.  As a result most of us genuinely believes that stuff like that is common, with the result of a generation of overweight children because parents are sure if the kid walks to school they will be kidnapped.
I don't have any idea of the social-historical roots of this obsession.  I realize that, due to our fiscal inequality and racial history, we have higher crime here than most of the world, but it doesn't come close to accounting for our fear and paranoia.
If anyone else here has a theory, I'd love to hear it myself

Norman Johnson

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2012, 09:06:52 AM »
If anyone else here has a theory, I'd love to hear it myself

If it bleeds, it leads.

Posthumane

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2012, 09:29:36 AM »
I don't have any idea of the social-historical roots of this obsession.  I realize that, due to our fiscal inequality and racial history, we have higher crime here than most of the world, but it doesn't come close to accounting for our fear and paranoia.
The US might have higher violent crime rates than Canada and Western Europe, but isn't amongst the most violent countries in the world. While murder rates aren't a totally accurate representation of violent crime, and certainly not of overall crime rates, this was rather insightful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
What I find interesting is the regional variations - I had no idea that DC has such a high homicide rate. I'm curious, do people from places like New Hampshire or Vermont have these same insecurities and fears? It's also interesting to note that people's perception quite often is that the world is more dangerous today than it was in the past, even though violent crime rates have been steadily falling for decades.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 09:31:55 AM by Posthumane »

flyfamily

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2012, 09:33:05 AM »
I can just say that I've never had an issue selling anything that I've listed..
And my being more cautious is due to the fact that my husband is deployed for the majority of the year.

Bakari

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2012, 10:45:59 AM »
If it bleeds, it leads.
But why more so in the US than in, say, Canada?

The US might have higher violent crime rates than Canada and Western Europe, but isn't amongst the most violent countries in the world.

fair enough, I should have said "the highest in the developed world".  Its not just Canada and Europe, but also Japan, China, Australia, Taiwan, the Middle East and North Africa - pretty much everywhere except Sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and Siberia.
But my point was that, even given out relatively high crime rates, it still doesn't come remotely close to explaining why we are so paranoid about it.  I pointed out earlier than you are many thousands of times more likely to die in the car ride to buy something on craigslist than from an insane murderous craigslist poster, but everyone posting here has continued to talk about "safety" as though there were any threat to begin with.
Not to mention giving credibility to the incorrect idea that women are at greater risk of violent crime than men, which is also false.

You don't have to take my word for it:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/vsxtab.cfm

http://nortonbooks.typepad.com/everydaysociology/2009/05/who-is-most-likely-to-be-a-crime-victim.html

Which means that men should be worried about being in public alone without their wives.  Not the other way around. 
So, that is another question: why have we as a society trained women to be scared of being alone around strangers, yet not men, when they are less likely to be victimized?

And on top of all that, those women that are the victims of crime, the vast majority of cases the attacker and victim knew each other personally.  So, technically, statistically, you should probably be more scared when your husband IS home, than of letting a stranger into your house when he isn't.

Seriously, people: Nobody answers craigslist ads as an excuse to rape and murder people.  They just don't.  Its a non-issue.  Hell, the extremely rare times it has happened at all, the ads were mostly for erotic services (and one for a nanny.  So don't post or answer ads for erotic services. 

Put down the newspapers, and focus on the things that can actually kill you: speeding, driving while using a cell phone, smoking, drinking alcohol, poor diet, and lack of exercise.

A stranger is just a friend you haven't met.

Posthumane

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2012, 11:10:59 AM »
Bakari, I agree with you completely that the amount of fear about violence in the US is way out of proportion compared the the actual amount of violence present. I imagine the prevalence and influence of popular media has a lot to do with that.

One thing I'm going to nitpick though is the conclusion you draw from the crime statistics:
http://nortonbooks.typepad.com/everydaysociology/2009/05/who-is-most-likely-to-be-a-crime-victim.html

Which means that men should be worried about being in public alone without their wives.  Not the other way around. 
So, that is another question: why have we as a society trained women to be scared of being alone around strangers, yet not men, when they are less likely to be victimized?
One of the reasons that statistics can be manipulated easily is that they often don't control for confounding variables. The confounding variables in this case are include things like the victims' own actions. It's true that young, low income, black males are much more likely to be victims of violence than middle aged, middle class white women, but that doesn't imply that the former is more at risk being out on the street after dark than the latter. Rather, a young low income males simply tend to be out in poor neighbourhoods after dark a lot more often than middle class white women, and they tend to spend a lot more time around potentially violent people. Be careful to remember that correlation does not imply causation.

James

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2012, 11:31:13 AM »
Put down the newspapers, and focus on the things that can actually kill you: speeding, driving while using a cell phone, smoking, drinking alcohol, poor diet, and lack of exercise.

Exactly, I absolutely agree with your thoughts.

Regarding what the OP should do, find what works for you and let yourself grow into new things.  Maybe start by taking some of the advice here about meeting people in public and not inside your house.  Whatever works for your situation and makes you comfortable.  But don't be afraid to allow that to change over time based on your experiences and the statistics out there that say it's simply not a problem unless you are engaging in high risk activities.

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2012, 12:35:53 PM »
DW was trying to sell something on CL and they wanted it delivered, false worries or not she was not going by herself.  I agree that if a degenerate is going to mug someone it will happen female or not especially if a weapon is involved, but if there are two people or if it is public place the odds go down.  But whatever the stats say I guarantee if said degenerate had a choice to mug me or mug my wife, my guess is it is going to be her - far less chance of getting his ass kicked. Also the chance of me getting raped is near zero, statistically it may be low for her as well but it higher probability than me. I am just not going to let it happen or even risk it to buy or sell some $50 whatever from someone I don't know anything about.

Personally, I think the whole CL thing is a huge inefficient headache, I would much rather use ebay and ship.

flyfamily

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2012, 02:13:07 PM »
The OP clearly has concerns. Those of us simply gave suggestions of what we have done/would do. It doesn't mean that we're all running around paranoid. I walk or ride my bike in this very area. With that said, I'm going to take the advice of my Sheriff's department and may change up the time of day that I may leave the house or the route that I take.

Reality is that a single woman, like the OP, may not have many friends or family in the area that check up on her regularly. I see nothing wrong with her wanting to take some steps to just be cautious, especially if that is a factor. I also do not know what region she lives in, so she has to use her own judgement.  If she were my daughter, I'd rather her do some of these things vs. for the sake of not sounding paranoid go and greet any person anywhere, anytime or have people come into her home.

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2012, 04:25:36 PM »
I'm not sure about American/Canadian differences, given that I'm Canadian and one of the people who responded suggesting that I would use some caution.  Perhaps we could avoid labelling people just because they have different opinions (and perhaps different situations, different life experiences, etc) than us?  I feel that "super paranoid" is quite an extreme characterization to use for people who are having a rational discussion of the appropriate levels of caution to use in a situation that is new to them. 

Maybe we should start by asking what it is that those levels of caution are meant to avoid?  I'm aware that statistically speaking, as a woman I am more likely to be raped or murdered by my partner than by a stranger.  I'm not actually concerned about that happening with a Craigslist ad, to be honest.  But as someone who lives alone (sort of - at least it would appear that way if you didn't know that there's also a basement apartment), if I didn't have dogs, then I might be concerned about someone figuring out that the house is empty when my car isn't in my driveway (therefore enabling them to break in).  Or about the hassle of trying to shoo an overly talkative person off my property and not having them try to convince me to let them in the house for the bathroom, a glass of water, etc.  Or about a guy that I'm not interested in trying to "pick me up" when I just want to sell him some old books.  I did have someone persistently asking me out after a garage sale a few years ago, so this isn't just some kind of inflated sense of ego on my part, but based on a real experience. 

Like flyfamily, I'm not the kind of person who's scared to leave the house - I walk around my current neighbourhood at all times of day and night (walking my dogs, and previously, coming and going by public transit), and even when living in some very rough parts of town, have never allowed fear to dictate how I live my life, where and when I go.  I have also worked in a far north RCMP detachment, and worked the overnight shift in a halfway house for provincial offenders in Ontario.  I did home visiting of families with disabled children in some of the roughest parts of Toronto, and visited them in the evenings when necessary - which some of my colleagues refused to do.  I've worked in the mental health field, and was assaulted by unstable clients more than once.  There's risk inherent in many things that we do.  So while I will always do what I need to do to live my life, I will also always make sure that I'm doing that in the safest way possible, minimizing the potential for hassle and problems.  Meeting a stranger from the internet in a place other than home is, IMO, a reasonable step to take. 

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2012, 11:16:06 AM »
Not to berate the subject or my opinion, but from a statisitcal perspective I view like this.

Probability of negative event is really low.

Magnitude of negative event (IMO) is really high (i.e. injury/rape/death).

Even for a low propabilty event I am not willing to risk a catastrophic outcome especially when I can control certain variables to greatly reduce the probability even further.

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2012, 11:42:23 AM »
Another statistic: If you try to sell something on Craigslist (or similar) and won't respond to email enquiries, you won't sell it to me.  That's one of the many reasons I have a computer & email, so I don't have to waste time trying to hold phone conversations with strangers.

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2012, 11:50:25 AM »
Not to berate the subject or my opinion, but from a statisitcal perspective I view like this.

Probability of negative event is really low.

Magnitude of negative event (IMO) is really high (i.e. injury/rape/death).

Even for a low propabilty event I am not willing to risk a catastrophic outcome especially when I can control certain variables to greatly reduce the probability even further.

That is a rationalization for an emotional based decision.

Otherwise, you (and we all) would take similar, or more extreme precautions, against the many other low probability catastrophic outcome events that don't involve willful attack, but which have a higher (thought still low) probability.
For example, being paralyzed or amputated in a car wreck is a catastrophic outcome, and one which there is a significantly higher probability of happening than being attacked by a CL buyer or seller.  By your reasoning, prudence would require never getting into a motor vehicle (nor walking or biking on, across, or near, streets that have them).
Being electrocuted by lightning is a catastrophic outcome, one with a low probability, (yet still higher than CL based attack), yet few if any would refuse to leave a building because a storm is approaching.  There are lots of terrible diseases that exist, yet we don't live in plastic bubble chambers or wear respirators when going out in public.

And given that the total number of cases of a CL buyer or seller being hospitalized, raped, or murdered stands at ZERO over 17 years; 0/17= an average of 0 per year (as I mentioned before, all such attacks have been responses to in-home services, all of one of which were prostitution).  It is not possible to reduce a probability any lower than zero.

There seems to be an assumption that anything which is done deliberately by someone else is inherently infinitely worse than something that happens by accident, but I submit that losing your legs in a car crash would actually have the greater impact on one's life than minor assault by a stranger.

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2012, 12:02:21 PM »
It's true that young, low income, black males are much more likely to be victims of violence than middle aged, middle class white women, but that doesn't imply that the former is more at risk being out on the street after dark than the latter. Rather, a young low income males simply tend to be out in poor neighbourhoods after dark a lot more often than middle class white women, and they tend to spend a lot more time around potentially violent people. Be careful to remember that correlation does not imply causation.

Certainly young low income black people are more likely to be in a bad neighborhood, but are young low income black females any less likely to be than males?  Are older middle class white males around violent people any more frequently than their female counterparts?  Those should balance out - outside of prison, any given population tends to have roughly equal proportions of each gender.
Of course there are confounding variables, and it is impossible to say conclusively why a given statistic comes out a certain way, but we don't have any numbers of how many of a demographic travel after dark, all we have is the crime data.
I would propose an alternate explanation: while criminals obviously have little respect for law, they still have their own version of a moral code.  One very common tenant is not hitting women.  In some circles (the young low income black community, for one.  Carnies, for another, just to mention 2 that I have personally experienced) hitting another man is perfectly acceptable morally, even if done for no other reason than personal gain.  Hitting a woman is seen as akin to hitting a child, or a handicapped person. 
Just in my own personal conversations, none of my female friends who grew up in bad neighborhoods have ever been randomly attacked by strangers, while almost all of my male friends (and myself) have - including in daytime, with other people around.  Only anecdotal, to be sure, but given that the statistics match it, I do suspect that is a lot of why.

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2012, 01:55:06 PM »

I would propose an alternate explanation: while criminals obviously have little respect for law, they still have their own version of a moral code.  One very common tenant is not hitting women.  In some circles (the young low income black community, for one.  Carnies, for another, just to mention 2 that I have personally experienced) hitting another man is perfectly acceptable morally, even if done for no other reason than personal gain.

You were a carnie?  Cause that's kinda awesome!

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2012, 03:37:05 PM »
The original poster hasn't returned, but I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that she would probably agree that the statistical likelihood of her getting victimised due to a Craigslist transaction is incredibly small, but that doesn't make her feel safer. This is always the issue with objective vs subjective safety. The former is the one that will actually happen, but it is people's perceptions of the latter that inform their choices and actions. Perhaps I am wrong, and and a simple presentation of facts would make the OP totally reconsider her worries, But I think it is more likely that she was not looking to be convinced/persuaded that she is being paranoid, but rather what actions to take to mitigate her worries, no matter how "irrational" they may be.

I always find it interesting to see what things other people are worried about, that I had never considered. I have been using Craigslist for years and never had problems (as a young male) meeting people in their homes, or having them come to mine: including in urban and suburban environments in at least two cities in Canada and the US. I also agree with one of the other posters that I would find it very off-putting if someone from Craigslist insisted on communicating by phone and not email, but I may chalk some of that difference up to a generation gap.

I also wanted to relate an incident that happened once that I found kind of amusing. We were trying to get rid of an old large chair on Craigslist. A woman came over to see it, I invited her in and told her the chair was in my bedroom at the back of the apartment (as that is where it was stored, and that day I had been too lazy to move it to the front before she got there). She then asked me if my wife was home, and then I realized that she looked a little nervous. I guess I can see how the situation would have made her uncomfortable. But as that was where the chair was, she went and saw it, liked it, and bought it, and I never did rob/rape/murder her. I related that story to my wife later and she laughed and said that if she had been in the woman's shoes she would have never considered to feel uncomfortable.. Different strokes for different folks.

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2012, 04:01:12 PM »
I might have felt uncomfortable going into your bedroom as well.  However, I generally feel like bedrooms are private places, and so I don't go into any of my friends bedrooms, and I would have felt odd going into someone's room I didn't know.  It wouldn't have anything to do with safety though, just personal preference.

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2012, 06:36:10 PM »
I can't speak for the OP, but I do think that there are LOTS of people who genuinely believe the things they fear are real threats, and the things they don't fear aren't - unless you seek out the information, there is a lot more sources telling us - virtually yelling at us - that there are bad people out there than reminding us how extremely rare they actually are in the big picture. 
I do believe that for many of those people simply being informed will go a long way toward mitigating fear.
Getting people to be afraid of things which are dangerous but commonplace - like driving - seems to be more of a challenge.

And yes, I joined a traveling carnival in the midwest one year, but by their standards it takes more than 3 months to actually be one of them.

Self-employed-swami

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2012, 06:38:58 PM »
And yes, I joined a traveling carnival in the midwest one year, but by their standards it takes more than 3 months to actually be one of them.

Cool!

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2012, 01:26:56 PM »
That is a rationalization for an emotional based decision.

Never said it wasn't.


Otherwise, you (and we all) would take similar, or more extreme precautions, against the many other low probability catastrophic outcome events that don't involve willful attack, but which have a higher (thought still low) probability.

I think willful attack is exactly the issue so kinda difficult to exclude it - besides I didn't say i wouldn't, or other people shouldn't, use CL, or that it is inherently evil or but the way you conduct transactions can be those things and that transcends statistical probabilities of getting struck by lightning or being paralyzed in a car wreck.

And given that the total number of cases of a CL buyer or seller being hospitalized, raped, or murdered stands at ZERO over 17 years; 0/17= an average of 0 per year (as I mentioned before, all such attacks have been responses to in-home services, all of one of which were prostitution).  It is not possible to reduce a probability any lower than zero.

I am going to go out on a limb here and categorize this as slight exageration, and I think I am probably being very generous with leaving it at that.


There seems to be an assumption that anything which is done deliberately by someone else is inherently infinitely worse than something that happens by accident, but I submit that losing your legs in a car crash would actually have the greater impact on one's life than minor assault by a stranger.

Both suck - although I don't think I would include rape/murder as a minor assault.  Sure accidents happen, but even while driving precautions are taken to minimize the accidental risk (seatbelts, airbags, traffic signals, speed limits, etc.). If you drive fast, eratic, and ignore traffic laws the probability of an accident with major injury increase exponentially.  Just like going to a meet a strange person, in a strange house, in a strange neighborhood at night or anyother time to pick up some crap is exponentially more risky than exchaning goods in a public place with plenty of people around (doesn't mean it is without risk, but a lot less of it).

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2012, 10:43:27 AM »
I am going to go out on a limb here and categorize this as slight exageration, and I think I am probably being very generous with leaving it at that.
Cool. Now can you support that "generous" opinion with a statistic, or are you just saying that your opinion is as valid as his statistic because you want it to be true? One of those I can respect; the other, I have some trouble with.

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2012, 11:09:26 AM »
haha I had forgotten about this thread, but I had been planning to address that comment myself

It wasn't an exaggeration.  As I said ALL of the murders of people posting or responding to CL ads have been for in home services, and all but one were specifically for erotic services.  So, literally, the number of buyers and sellers who have been murdered is literally 0, in the 17 years CL has existed. 
Now, granted, its a sad reflection on society that sociopaths feel that its ok to kill prostitutes, but realize that this has been true since at least the Jack the Ripper days, and it has nothing to do with Craigslist.  That just happens to be the modern way to pick up prostitutes.

Don't even look for statistics.  Can you find even ONE example of a person buying or selling legal tangible goods on craigslist who has been raped or murdered?  I acknowledged earlier the possibility that there may have been a case that I just didn't find, but no one has posted any links to news articles.

So, having established that those extremes have a risk of 0%, all that leaves is the possibility of minor assault, perhaps accompanying theft or mugging.  Something like that is less likely to make news, so I am granting the possibility that it occasionally occurs.  Of course, given that the perpetrator knows that you know their email, phone number, and address (if you go to their place), it is a whole lot less likely than a total stranger mugging you on a street corner.  Even criminals and sociopaths aren't stupid.

So back to my original question: why do so many people feel that anything done willful against you, however minor, is inherently worse than a life changing crises which was an accident?  Would you really rather lose a limb in a car accident than to be punched, one time, in the face by a person?

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2012, 12:09:37 PM »
I am going to go out on a limb here and categorize this as slight exageration, and I think I am probably being very generous with leaving it at that.
Cool. Now can you support that "generous" opinion with a statistic, or are you just saying that your opinion is as valid as his statistic because you want it to be true? One of those I can respect; the other, I have some trouble with.

Sure it was an opinion but as I said it was a slight exageration to say that there have been ZERO incidents linked to CL - that is absurd.  You are also assuming that every incident gets reported to some CL hotline, which is not the case.  BTW, why didn't you call Bakari out for not citing any stats.  Anyway, to satisfy you both I just did a quick search and it took all of 3 seconds to find something.  See the links.  Clearly more than zero.

http://www.startribune.com/local/165995936.html?refer=y

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-10-23/news/sns-rt-us-usa-crime-craigslistbre89m1i4-20121023_1_brogan-rafferty-ohio-craigslist-ralph-geiger

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Craigslist-Ad-Leads-to-Home-Invasion-Sources-92224679.html


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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2012, 05:29:39 PM »
Alright, you found one. 

The other two don't meet the criteria I posed: buyer or seller, not services, and rape or murder, not minor assault and theft.
The way I read them, one should avoid meeting people in public, where the other person can remain anonymous. Don't meet at  gas station and then get into their car, and don't accompany them into the woods.  Meet them at their house (so you know where they live) and don't go inside.
Still failing to see how buying or selling on CL is more dangerous than interacting with strangers in any context, not to mention compared to driving a car

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2012, 05:55:24 PM »
I didn't read everything, but I think it's a valid concern for a woman sometimes...

I would say follow your instincts.  If something seems fishy or not quite right, then it's probably someone you want to be careful about.  Just tell them you already sold your item.

I don't give out my address until I've had several back and forths with people.  Normally people ask questions and then you need to organize a time to meet up (either through e-mail or on the phone) and by that point you can tell whether they really want to buy something from you or are being weird.

I also think meeting at work is a perfect solution if you're not sure.

By the way, when I sell things on craigslist, it seems it's mostly women that respond to me.  If someone e-mails and sounds weird (which rarely happens), I just don't reply.

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2012, 10:38:03 PM »
So back to my original question: why do so many people feel that anything done willful against you, however minor, is inherently worse than a life changing crises which was an accident?  Would you really rather lose a limb in a car accident than to be punched, one time, in the face by a person?

Just like even people who post on the MMM forum each have our own splurges and instances of doing 'illogical' things with some of our budgets that bring us joy, but which other MMM posters would consider frivolous - the entire human race is not perfectly logical, as we often blend emotions with our decisions. As a result, few of our actions are based on pure logic, and will sometimes go so far as to end up ignoring the obvious points you make about a history of zero serious assaults/murders/rapes as a result of buying/selling goods, vs perceived safety risks.

They don't focus on the 3,493,094 perfectly safe, incident-free airplane flights, but rather the 3 plane crashes in the past 15 years. Their tunnel vision ignores the massively large numbers of incident-free transactions, and only looks at the sensationalized incident from a prostitute.

However, one thing to say in their defense is that precisely because there are (relatively speaking) quite a few 'bad people' out there who are convicted of various crimes, part of me is surprised that nothing has happened yet to more Craigslist users (or had and hasn't been publicized), just from a numbers perspective. If x% of the people at large have been the victim of a stranger randomly mugging/assaulting/raping them, you would expect at least some small part of that to carryover into Craigslist transactions (unless the criminals are simply too lazy to pursue it, and/or perhaps fear leaving digital fingerprints)

Also, when you consider the 'average woman' and the 'average man', you'd probably agree that in a situation where a bad person is coming after them, if each woman/man has no self defense training, the 'average woman' might fear having more bad things happen to hear compared to the 'average man', regardless of their physical abilities. I've also seen some studies that show women typically take less risks with investments compared to men, and try to carry that over into everyday life. This would make the typical woman less likely to 'take a risk' by looking at the statistical safety analysis of a Craigslist transaction, and instead appeal to the comforting safety of what her emotions need to feel safe and secure....compared to the typical man, who's testosterone may make him feel more at ease in appealing to logic and looking at a very small risk as being very unlikely in certain situations (like trusting a stranger) compared to a typical woman.

One final aspect to consider is the sense of control. You use an example of not being worried about serious injury in a car accident vs the much smaller risk of being punched in the face by a stranger from Craigslist.

While your car could be hit by another person's car, you are in control of your own car's movement, and are able to control a good part of your car's motion, and can mitigate away your accident probability through safe driving habits, while just part of the 'other stuff' (other drivers) is random and out of your control. However, with a stranger from Craigslist, EVERYTHING related to the safety of the situation is, in a sense, 'out of your control', in the sense that no matter what you do, the stranger will either be nice or be a bad person, irregardless of how you conduct yourself.* So I would suggest that the sense of having very little/if any control over the safety of a situation would subconsciously make people more hesitant to feel safe and secure, regardless of statistical probabilities.

*yes, there can be some things that might put you in a more dangerous situation (like answering your front door with just a bath towel wrapped around you vs being fully-clothed......or pulling out your wallet filled with $10,000 in $100 bills, and opening it in front of a Craigslist seller, at 11pm at night, in a dark alley). This assumes you're not that foolish.

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2012, 11:17:21 PM »
Otherwise, you (and we all) would take similar, or more extreme precautions, against the many other low probability catastrophic outcome events that don't involve willful attack, but which have a higher (thought still low) probability.
For example, being paralyzed or amputated in a car wreck is a catastrophic outcome, and one which there is a significantly higher probability of happening than being attacked by a CL buyer or seller.  By your reasoning, prudence would require never getting into a motor vehicle (nor walking or biking on, across, or near, streets that have them).
Being electrocuted by lightning is a catastrophic outcome, one with a low probability, (yet still higher than CL based attack), yet few if any would refuse to leave a building because a storm is approaching.  There are lots of terrible diseases that exist, yet we don't live in plastic bubble chambers or wear respirators when going out in public.

Meeting people to sell/buy things from Craigslist is a pretty peripheral, non-essential activity for most people.  The risks of getting in a car or going outside in a thunderstorm may be greater, but transportation and leaving the house are a bit more necessary for most people to function in their everyday lives.  They'll accept the risks of getting in a car because the perceived necessity of that is higher than the need to sell stuff to strangers on Craigslist.

People are emotional and rational creatures.  We have an over-weighted preference to not suffer/die in certain ways, and act accordingly.  Though it only happened to one person (statistically, in a city of millions, one incident doesn't mean the city is unsafe), this week we had a seemingly-random stabbing murder of a pedestrian during daylight hours, so people are fearful.  Over the past decade in my region, every couple of years someone kidnaps a child and rapes, kills, and dismembers her.  So by no means a common crime, but parents don't let their kids loose to play unattended anymore.  Every one of us is going to die, but we have such a preference for going in certain ways (old age/heart attack/stroke) as opposed to others (random violence), that we'll chance the more-common-but-acceptable risks and go out of our way to avoid the less-common-but-unacceptable ones.  I'd argue that this makes sense; I think there's a lot more suffering involved in the random-violence ending versus the car-crash ending, even from just a psychological standpoint.

All that to say I think it's rational if the ladies want to be more cautious in their Craigslist activities, or forego them completely.  If your goal is to die peacefully in your sleep at a ripe, old age (my preferred end), nothing wrong with avoiding activities that might lead to an alternate ending, especially if the value of that activity is low-to-moderate.  There are lots of ways to be Mustachian and improve your life.

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2012, 08:32:03 AM »
I think this is also a valid concern, partly since women tend to get blamed for our own rapes (why wasn't she being more careful, etc.), and partly because I'd be concerned about someone knowing where I lived.  I usually avoid craigslist in favor of eBay since you generally don't have to worry about that stuff. 

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Re: is craigslist safe - the angst of a single woman
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2012, 08:47:48 AM »
Alright, you found one. 

The other two don't meet the criteria I posed: buyer or seller, not services, and rape or murder, not minor assault and theft.
The way I read them, one should avoid meeting people in public, where the other person can remain anonymous. Don't meet at  gas station and then get into their car, and don't accompany them into the woods.  Meet them at their house (so you know where they live) and don't go inside.
Still failing to see how buying or selling on CL is more dangerous than interacting with strangers in any context, not to mention compared to driving a car

Actually your standard was hospitalized, raped or murdered....and that it was zero, so all I needed to find was a single event to dismiss your argument, and as I said I didn't really have to look for it.  You also said that the in home services were all linked to prostitution, which was not the case for the links. 

Without having the actual data, I agree that it would seem likely that statisitcally speaking CL is realtively safe but that doesn't mean it is completely safe and if you isolate certain variables then it becomes less safe.  Bad things happen every where and to say that CL is completely safe and there is no chance of anything really bad happening to you is just wrong and irresponsible - with the right precautions it is plenty safe though.