Is Class Creep Real?

[heybro]

We've all heard about luxury creep.

I want to bring up the subject of Class Creep.

It may be an Achilles heal to MMM and I've seen it in my own life.  I'm trying to figure out how much of an issue it could be or if it can be easily made negligible.

Theory:
When a regular person gets a raise at work or 'moves up in the world,' they go ahead and cash in on it.  They buy a bigger house in a better neighborhood.  But a Mustachian maintains their same social-class status and instead uses that money to FIRE.  They do not move up in terms of class.  They simply maintain their current standard.

What can be troubling is when the current rung you sit at actually moves up without you.  If you are just trying to stay where you are at, you may end up 'moving down' not because you actually moved down but because everyone else moved up.

Practical Example:
I'm happy to live in a very small place.  But after 10 years, the building I live in has gone downhill.  The people who used to live here (young quiet professionals) are now living in much more expensive buildings.  Even if I make the same as they do, I want to put my money towards FIRE.  They're happy to put their money towards a nicer place.  Even if I don't want that nicer place, since most of their class does, I'm now living with a lower class of people than I was before (lots of problems keep popping up that I'm not used too).

Now this may be an isolated incident and it may not cost me that much more to improve things.  But it has still affected me and I can see it ballooning if I don't pay attention to it.  It's been 10 years.  What happens in 30?



When people were buying McMansions, it seemed very easy to reject that and opt for the smaller house.  But what happens when your current class IS opting for things that are reasonable.  It's harder to under-cut them without moving down too far.

In other words, anyone can live in their parent's basement and achieve FIRE.  Anyone can also achieve FIRE by rejecting McMansions and rejecting over-spending.  There is a middle ground there and I think you have to be careful.  At least that is what I am seeing first hand and I hope it's a temporary isolated thing.

Of course, I do think this closely relates to life-style creep as well.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Doesn't work that way. People stay with what they know. If they live in a crappy neighbourhood, in a house full of cheaply made rubbish and live on takeaways, and you give them a whole lot of money........they'll buy a bigger house in the same kind of neighbourhood, even more cheap shit and even more takeaways. Did you imagine that people will move away from their support networks into a different kind of neighbourhood and start spending money on books and education? Money does not equal class. Never has and never will. There are a whole lot of people with middle class incomes living in really shitty places and still doing the same old shitty stuff. It's where they grew up and what all the people they know do. And similarly there are broke people living in the suburbs desperately trying to keep up with their neighbours because that's what they know. Incomes can range all over the place, but your class doesn't change, by and large.

[Bloop Bloop]

I sort of get what you're saying. As I get more senior in my profession I notice that the people who are dong well (many of whom earn so much that they could easily retire in 10 years of savings from today, if they wanted, even with a borderline lavish lifestyle) tend to succumb to lifestyle inflation. And there's an expectation that I should follow suit if I'm doing well. I've had friends ask me, seriously, "When are you moving to (insert v expensive/trendy suburb)?"

You sometimes just have to reject the perceived norm.Sure, I could buy a $2m house like a lot of my peers, and spend 12-15 years paying it off. Or I could be happy with my $650,000 property and have an extra $1,350,000 in my retirement fund. I've found that it helps to use humour: "I'm too lazy with housework, so till I can afford a butler, I'm happy with my little house."

[soccerluvof4]

I think it depends more on the person. Yes some will buy a bigger home and accumulate more shit and eat more garbage and so on but some are making sacrifices as the OP said to have a better life and some are just trying to be show boaters. The question seems to be from the way you wrote it your worried more about how people are perceiving YOU than doing or whats really important. You dont have to build a Mc Manison as you said or creep up all the time BUT if you live in a situation that is what you say why not creep this one time? where and how you live is important for many reasons. If the environment around you had changed to be unsafe and is crumbling around you move up one rung of the ladder or to your comfort level. That to me is the balance. Being Frugal and saving to Fire isnt about doom and gloom till you can come out and see the rainbow its about just being smarter about things as you seemingly are, caring less about what the jones are doing which you seemingly are and not caring about what others foolishly do with there money. In your example, I would simply say its time to upgrade the area and space your living in.

[CSuzette]

I prioritize a nice safe place to live whether an apartment or my own place. Short term pain (spending) allowed me to live in a nice place and make 100k in 4 years when I sold. Where I live now it took longer but I will make at least 250k when I sell. Not everyone gets so lucky but you can be frugal and still live well.

[Cranky]

I don't measure my worth or my "class" by what other people do or where they live. And IME, poorer neighborhoods are not really less safe, they just get more publicity about problems.

[Mike in NH]

I think I get what you are saying, it might be easier for others to relate if you gave some specific examples of the problems i.e.: I used to live around a lot of friends, young professionals and peers, now there are some drug addicts and issues with stolen property, police are here weekly for altercations, etc.

I am not a landlord myself but I'm pretty sure statistically if you want a certain type of renter (stable job, credit score), you charge a certain amount of rent. Does that mean that every person who can afford $2000/month will never be a drug addict, fail to pay their rent or need to have the police called on them at some point? No, of course not. But you're likely to find a lot more addicts and other problems @ a much lower per month price point in relation to average housing costs. It's hard to be a heroin addict, keep a stable job, and pay your rent...that's just a basic fact isn't it?

@Cranky I'm interested in your thought that poorer neighborhoods are not really less safe. Can you elaborate? I'm always interested in sociology and demographics, I thought a pretty strong correlation had been proven between lack of resources and social unrest/strife.

To me class creep is just the longer-term effect of lifestyle inflation, but I guess that depends on your definitions of those things. If you base class standing on income/assets, then you move along with your peers on paper. If you base it on spending/lifestyle, then I consider myself to be somewhat lower middle class, while my friends are over time starting to move into the upper middle class. 

[happyuk]

"I'm now living with a lower class of people than I was before (lots of problems keep popping up that I'm not used too)."

Could you expand on this bit? 

What do you mean by "lower class"?  Do you mean those persons in your vicinity have become less polite, or less law-abiding? 

Do you need to interact with these people in any way or are you able to avoid them?  It's unclear if you actually live with or share rent with these people.

Don't forget you can encounter some extremely dislikeable people in more affluent neighbourhoods too.

[Adam Zapple]

I don't measure my worth or my "class" by what other people do or where they live. And IME, poorer neighborhoods are not really less safe, they just get more publicity about problems.

I completely disagree with this.  I've had the benefit of living in poor, lower middle, middle, and upper middle class neighborhoods.  There were pros and cons to each.  The major negatives of the poor neighborhoods were the near constant property crimes, gun shots, open drug use, loud and intoxicated neighbors that don't sleep during normal hours, arson, trash in the streets etc.  Even with all this, I found something enjoyable about these neighborhoods.  Maybe it was that people were more open and friendly and there were generally more people around.  But to say there is no more crime in poor neighborhoods is just silly.  Property prices in these neighborhoods are low for a reason.

[AlexMar]

I personally believe this is because the "bottom" is coming up.  People who could never afford a decent place are now moving in to your building - a decent place.  The people are bringing their "lower class" troubles with them, unfortunately.  But this is because life is getting better and people don't even realize it.  Where I live this is incredibly common and it's been going on as long as I can remember.  Former middle class areas are now supposedly "lower class" and the middle class neighborhoods are what used to be "expensive."  Its not because people are more willing to spend now than before, it's because as humans progress, nice things become cheaper and more affordable.  But it happens slowly so we never really appreciate it.

Another way to view it.  Think about real estate investing.  You take out a 30 year loan on a property (not saying it's a good idea) - your principle/interest stays the same.  In 15 years with inflation, your mortgage is still the same.  It's now CHEAP.  Well, the building you live in works kind of the same way.  It was built in 1980's dollars (or whenever it was built) so as time goes on, it gets cheaper and cheaper due to inflation.  But providing it's maintained, the quality and lifestyle of living there probably stays pretty similar.  The rooms aren't getting smaller, basically.

[AlexMar]

I don't measure my worth or my "class" by what other people do or where they live. And IME, poorer neighborhoods are not really less safe, they just get more publicity about problems.

I completely disagree with this.  I've had the benefit of living in poor, lower middle, middle, and upper middle class neighborhoods.  There were pros and cons to each.  The major negatives of the poor neighborhoods were the near constant property crimes, gun shots, open drug use, loud and intoxicated neighbors that don't sleep during normal hours, arson, trash in the streets etc.  Even with all this, I found something enjoyable about these neighborhoods.  Maybe it was that people were more open and friendly and there were generally more people around.  But to say there is no more crime in poor neighborhoods is just silly.  Property prices in these neighborhoods are low for a reason.

This is a great point.  I've also found that the higher up the neighborhood-ladder you go, the less and less friendly and open it feels.  I live in a very upper class neighborhood now and you basically don't know your neighbors.  When I lived in the "hood" - I knew everyone.  Very friendly.  Hang out all the time.  And yes, basically property crimes and drug use but when you live there, for some reason that stuff doesn't seem so bad.  When I was in a middle class neighborhood, it was a little less but still very family oriented.  Knew the neighbors well, lots going on.  Absolutely nothing in the upper class neighborhood.  Everyone hides in their big houses.

[Fomerly known as something]

OP it sounds like your neighborhood is changing but not because of your contemporaries moving out but of who is moving in.  Would you be having the same questions if your new neighbors were young professionals, meaning the same kind of people that were there 10 years ago when you moved in.  You, just younger.  Instead you say the neighborhood is changing to something else as your old neighbors have moved.  Or has the neighborhood always been this way and you are now seeing it differently because of the way your old neighbors talk about their new homes.

[Indexer]

I wonder if we are misdiagnosing the problem.

An area with a lot of young professionals normally attracts more young professionals. When the first group moves out another group moves in. There is an area of my city known for luxury apartments for young professionals and it's been that way for a long time even though the young pros who were there before have all moved into homes and started families.


What this sounds like is that your area of the city you live in is going downhill. The next round of young pros decided to live somewhere else. I ran into something similar several years ago. I lived in some decent apartments in the area between the 'nice expensive area' and the 'cheap I don't want to live here' area. Early on it was mostly young professionals who wanted to save a little, but instead of improving the area went down hill and joined the 'cheap, I don't want to live here' area. Part of the problem in that specific case was that the luxury apartments kept remodeling to keep up with the times, but the affordable apartments didn't and quickly started to have more in common with the bad area than the good area.

Summary: I moved.

[maizefolk]

OP it sounds like your neighborhood is changing but not because of your contemporaries moving out but of who is moving in.  Would you be having the same questions if your new neighbors were young professionals, meaning the same kind of people that were there 10 years ago when you moved in.  You, just younger.  Instead you say the neighborhood is changing to something else as your old neighbors have moved.  Or has the neighborhood always been this way and you are now seeing it differently because of the way your old neighbors talk about their new homes.

I came here to write something similar. People tend to get richer with age, and if people with higher incomes tend to move to new locations, all things being equal I'd expect them to be replaced by younger people on the same ultimate career track.

So it's possible that independent of who is growing up and moving out, your neighborhood has been becoming less desirable (degentrifying?).If so, if things get bad enough that you really do need to move, one option would be, instead of buying a big house and moving to the same places your former neighbors lived, you could figure out where the new people who are like your neighbors 10 years ago are living and look into moving there instead. 

Given the lack of detail you provided about what specifically bothers you about your new neighbors it also seems possible that the person you are today has shifted their tastes/preference enough so that you would have seen the person you were 10-12 years ago as an undesirable new neighbor. For example, I've noticed that my standards for what it takes to qualify as a "quiet" person have definitely shifted as I've aged.

[horsepoor]

It can also depend on the housing market.  For example, we bought a very middle-of-the-road house in neighboring town at the top of the market in 2006.  In 2010, when the market tanked, we realized that we could afford to move closer to our jobs (we were previously commuting opposite directions), so we bought a foreclosure, moved, and rented out our old house, which was suddenly worth 50% of what we paid for it.  After three years of renting it out, we were over there talking to the last renters, who were preparing to move out.  They said they would have wanted to buy the house from us, but the neighborhood had gone down hill.  The house across the street from us, which used to be owned and lived in by a nice family, was now rented, and had sketchy people coming and going constantly, and the condition was declining.  The octogenarian next door to us had moved to assisted living and that had also turned into a rental, and was not being maintained in the same way.  So someone who'd stayed put on that street would have seen some deterioration in the status quo for that neighborhood.

[undercover]

People are people. If your neighborhood has become super unsafe or something or you just don't get along with anyone, then yeah it might be time to move. I would always prioritize living close to work more than anything else.

I would always stick to "lower middle class" neighborhoods if given the choice, personally. People in affluent neighborhoods are decidedly more depressed according to research. The vibe of a non-pretentious/ostentatious neighborhood with reasonable sized houses full of friendly people who are just happy to be alive/get by is always much better than the alternatives.

I would not want to live somewhere where people actually did think of people in terms of "classes" because it comes off incredibly self-righteous. You can make shit money and still be a smart, self-aware and respectable person.

But to answer your question - lifestyle inflation is real, sure, and the more money you make the more likely you are to spend it as an average person. People buy more shit as they make more money. This is not limited to housing, clearly. That means actual jack shit for your own personal journey though, hence why you're here.

[DreamFIRE]

I used to live in a lower middle class neighborhood but moved away due to taking a job in another city.  The person who bought my old ended up renting it out, and some low class ghetto people moved in who left toys out in the front lawn and put a grill out in the front lawn.  One of my old neighbors sort of blamed me for moving out.  I wondered if the whole neighborhood would eventually fall.  But nearly two decades later, it's actually held on just fine.  And my old house has had some significant remodeling recently and is up for sale at a higher price point, currently vacant.  There's still hope for the old neighborhood.

[Cranky]

I've gotta say that if your idea of "ghetto" is that people leave toys and bbq grills in the front yard, your standards are higher than mine. LOL

99% of poor people are working hard and minding their own darn business. There's not more drug use in poor neighborhoods, although longterm drug use tends to make you poor, but rich people can be less visible about it. And if someone wants to burgle your house for drug money, that person wants to look around a neighborhood where houses have more stuff to burgle.

There are certainly places I don't much want to live (any big city at this point in my life) but all that I ask of my neighbors is quiet. They don't have to be classy, and if they grill in the front yard, they should make me a plate. Hey - I have vegetables growing in my front yard all summer.

[DreamFIRE]

I've gotta say that if your idea of "ghetto" is that people leave toys and bbq grills in the front yard, your standards are higher than mine. LOL

That was more of the opinion of the people that still lived there as I was long gone from the neighborhood.  No one mentioned anything about drugs or if they had jobs.

There are certainly places I don't much want to live (any big city at this point in my life) but all that I ask of my neighbors is quiet. They don't have to be classy, and if they grill in the front yard, they should make me a plate. Hey - I have vegetables growing in my front yard all summer.

I feel the same way that having quiet neighbors is very important, preferably distant neighbors that don't bother me.  lol  I would not be put off by some vegetables if they're being kept clean of weeds.  I definitely haven't seen toys and grills in the front yards in my current neighborhood over the last 17 years.

[heybro]

I personally believe this is because the "bottom" is coming up.  People who could never afford a decent place are now moving in to your building - a decent place.  The people are bringing their "lower class" troubles with them, unfortunately.  But this is because life is getting better and people don't even realize it.  Where I live this is incredibly common and it's been going on as long as I can remember.  Former middle class areas are now supposedly "lower class" and the middle class neighborhoods are what used to be "expensive."  Its not because people are more willing to spend now than before, it's because as humans progress, nice things become cheaper and more affordable.  But it happens slowly so we never really appreciate it.

This is exactly it.  So how do I make sure I 'keep up' with others in my 'group' so to speak and account for it my plan.  It doesn't seem like a simple 'account for inflation' type of puzzle.

[heybro]

i.e.: I used to live around a lot of friends, young professionals and peers, now there are some drug addicts and issues with stolen property, police are here weekly for altercations, etc.

More or less this is exactly it.  I'm not eyeing 'better' things jealously.  I'm completely fine with my current place as it relates to 'stuff.'  It's the people and the problems going on -- police incidents, etc. that are troubling me.

[heybro]

I wonder if we are misdiagnosing the problem.

An area with a lot of young professionals normally attracts more young professionals. When the first group moves out another group moves in. There is an area of my city known for luxury apartments for young professionals and it's been that way for a long time even though the young pros who were there before have all moved into homes and started families.


What this sounds like is that your area of the city you live in is going downhill. The next round of young pros decided to live somewhere else. I ran into something similar several years ago. I lived in some decent apartments in the area between the 'nice expensive area' and the 'cheap I don't want to live here' area. Early on it was mostly young professionals who wanted to save a little, but instead of improving the area went down hill and joined the 'cheap, I don't want to live here' area. Part of the problem in that specific case was that the luxury apartments kept remodeling to keep up with the times, but the affordable apartments didn't and quickly started to have more in common with the bad area than the good area.

Summary: I moved.

I hope you are right.  I just keep comparing years ago vs. today.  For example, right now washer/dryer are standard in any place -- apartment or otherwise.  Years ago, it was unheard of to have in your unit.  I would gladly choose a place without a washer/dryer in the unit especially if it means I don't pay as much and achieve my financial goals quicker.  BUT, the places that don't have washer/dryer are places a person doesn't want to live anymore.  It's like a school of fish.  You benefit from being in that group.  You stray from it and you are worse off.

I just get the feeling that it's beneficial to stay in your group and I'm worried that as others 'move up' that I am not only left behind but also fall down further and further.  And I don't have to be with them.....being a few steps behind is fine.  But if you are too far removed, it seems to start to be a problem.

If we are both making 100k let's say.  They not only spend 100k but they borrow against it.  They are living a 300k lifestyle when you figure in all the debt.  Then I'm not living a 100k lifestyle even.  I'm living 100k / 25 = 4k lifestyle per year.  So the gulf between the two gets huge.

Now, when you are just a few rungs below (Mcmansion vs. Rambler) then the differences are negligible and you can chalk up those differences to 'they are greedy and lavish and I'm not."  But once the world has changed from typewriters to tablets....well, using your typewriter actually becomes more detrimental than forking over the dough to buy tablets and yadda yadda yadda.

I hope this is an isolated thing.  I just keep looking back at other generations and it leads me to believe this may be bad.  For instance, retirement used to be in a nursing home.  Now, people are getting in to those fancy buildings and living a huge lifestyle in retirement.  It's like their entire class demanded those things because they had advanced financially in life.  So, the supply rose up to meet those needs.  So now, you have to compete with all your cohorts that have the money to get in those things but you are stuck in that nursing home which is now very very bad because it is now the lowest rung option available.  Before, it was just middle ground and OK.

I also look at the trend for young professionals to rent now.  Well, now there are no apartments available because of it.  And prices are way up.  And you have to go in to some kind of luxury thing in order to get quiet.  The buildings that were middle rung before are now infestations of problems. 

I hope I am wrong.  But it's hit me in my own life and I don't see it reversing.

Maybe there is an area that is better for me that is also cheaper.  That seems to be a pattern I notice as well.  Sometimes the best thing is actually the cheaper thing.

Thank you for all the responses.  Great discussion!

[heybro]

So it's possible that independent of who is growing up and moving out, your neighborhood has been becoming less desirable (degentrifying?).If so, if things get bad enough that you really do need to move, one option would be, instead of buying a big house and moving to the same places your former neighbors lived, you could figure out where the new people who are like your neighbors 10 years ago are living and look into moving there instead. 

I completely agree.  I just hate to move and end up in the same boat sooner or later.  Also, how to find out where that is!

[JZinCO]

I personally believe this is because the "bottom" is coming up.  People who could never afford a decent place are now moving in to your building - a decent place.  The people are bringing their "lower class" troubles with them, unfortunately.  But this is because life is getting better and people don't even realize it.  Where I live this is incredibly common and it's been going on as long as I can remember.  Former middle class areas are now supposedly "lower class" and the middle class neighborhoods are what used to be "expensive."  Its not because people are more willing to spend now than before, it's because as humans progress, nice things become cheaper and more affordable.  But it happens slowly so we never really appreciate it.

This is exactly it.  So how do I make sure I 'keep up' with others in my 'group' so to speak and account for it my plan.  It doesn't seem like a simple 'account for inflation' type of puzzle.

The original post confused me but I think I'm stuck on the concept of 'class'. What exactly do you mean by class? Locale desirability? Luxuries and Amenities?
I suppose you could move into an area that is economically stable or live in an area that is experiencing economic revitalization (i.e. be a first mover in an area that is downtrodden, but perhaps a whole foods or next generation mass transit is setting up shop). That way you lock in, via a mortgage, the majority of your personal spending but get the benefits of an improving neighborhood.

This is my experience with the majority of places I have lived. In other words, I can't relate to AlexMar. While everyone is benefiting from cheaper goods and services plus higher incomes, the high desirability (where I live) is pushing up cost of living at a greater rate of change. The net result is cost of living is outstripping gains by the 'bottom'.  To be more explicit: I am part of an early wave of home buyers that is tilting the neighborhood from a majority-student-rental to a majority-owner-occupied neighborhood. That is changing the demography towards yuppies like me.
... I think I'm addressing the original post but the thesis is still a little confusing.

[heybro]

I lived in some decent apartments in the area between the 'nice expensive area' and the 'cheap I don't want to live here' area. Early on it was mostly young professionals who wanted to save a little, but instead of improving the area went down hill and joined the 'cheap, I don't want to live here' area.

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!!!

[heybro]

The original post confused me but I think I'm stuck on the concept of 'class'. What exactly do you mean by class? Locale desirability? Luxuries and Amenities?

I struggle with which word to use.  Sorry about that.

I just mean 'group' more or less.
Like a school of fish.
Like your rung on the ladder of life.

I'm not really needing to define which group or what it looks like.  I'm more thinking about it as a system.  My thesis is that it is hard to stay with your group if you aren't moving up like they are.  Because the group isn't going to sit still.  And if you sit still, you will actually move down only because others are moving up past you.

My question is: Does the MMM model account for having to move up with your group?  You can lag behind your group but not fall off too far.


(And I have no interest in locale or amenities.  I'm pretty spartan.  And this is probably why it's hit me since I'm already very lagged behind my peers.  It's like the mice on the ship are the first to feel the flood water.)

[Altons Bobs]

I'd say to live your life the way that satisfies you, instead of trying to keep up with your peers. One thing about renting, is that you don't know where that rental place is going to go, it may go bad, or stay the same, or improve. Why can't you have both - moving to a nicer neighborhood and save money to fire at the same time?!

[JZinCO]

I'm fairly certain that my demographic group (mid-millennial) are slightly more urban and early a higher salary than me (a consequence of me taking the graduate school route). Half of them have kids. About half own a home. But every year I exceed them (on average) in net worth accumulation, I have no debt, and I likely have a larger discretionary income. So I can't "afford" to live in hip Denver neighborhoods or get brunch all the time. Maybe superficially I am moving down the class rungs in relation to them but it's fake and not based on anything but outward perception. So.. who cares if I lag far behind them? I don't see what is wrong with not keeping up with the Joneses. Change my mind..?

[StarBright]

I think I get what you are saying, it might be easier for others to relate if you gave some specific examples of the problems i.e.: I used to live around a lot of friends, young professionals and peers, now there are some drug addicts and issues with stolen property, police are here weekly for altercations, etc.

The above is what I was understanding the OP to mean.

And it is how it played out for my parents (who were mustachians back in the 80s). They felt strongly about living in the same area where they grew up which was a nice blend of blue and white collar when they were kids - decidedly middle class. But they very purposefully did not buy into lifestyle inflation as they moved up their career ladders.

By the time I was in elementary school we were the only white collar family on our block. By the time I was in high school my whole neighborhood was pretty lower middle class - lots of problems with drugs, theft, only 10% of my HS class went on to a 4 year college, I can name 10 classmates off the top of my head that died from overdoses in the last 15 years, etc.

I think the reality of it is, unless you are in very specific urban areas with limited land for building, people will always move to nicer homes if they can. And if your neighbors aren't interested in improving their existing home, then nicer = newer. If everyone around you has moved to new builds, it doesn't matter how nice you keep your property, the neighborhood will go downhill. Who would want a three bed, one bath 1000 sqft home, when they could easily afford two bathrooms and nicer materials? Also I think in certain parts of the midwest and LCOL areas, property is so relatively cheap that people really do just move instead of updating/maintaining their existing homes.

I like OPs theory of class inflation. I really appreciate the environment that I was raised in because it gave me an appreciation for the privileges that I was born into and an understanding of how people can be very hardworking and still never get ahead. BUT (big but), I would NEVER, EVER, move my family into the neighborhood that I was raised in.

As an adult with children, I very purposefully moved into a neighborhood several rungs up the class ladder. I can afford it, and we are pretty darn mustachian, but if our neighborhood ever started going downhill like the one I grew up in, you could bet I'd get out of Dodge right quick!

 

[neo von retorch]

If you define your class or group as a specific list of people, and those people are not frugal, they will likely succumb to lifestyle inflation. You either give into peer pressure and join their rat race, or you leave the group.

If you define your class or group (or yourself) by a specific set of values, including the choice to forego lifestyle inflation, you can remain within that definition indefinitely.

But I agree with others that the original thread sounds more like the changing demographics and behaviors of the neighborhood. If that changes in opposition to your ideal life, you might have to react with a change of location to regain the lifestyle that better aligns with your values and desired daily experiences.

[Ann]

As others have suggested, I think that the concerns are actually two separate issues.
1) If you and your peer group choose different lifestyles (Mustachism versus typical American consumerism) then, yes, your life is going to look different than your peers.  You have chosen NOT to “keep with the Joneses”.  That *is* directly related to your MMM choices.

2) Impermanence is a given in life.  Some nieghborhoods go downhill.  Some become gentrified and people who lived there for years can no longer afford it.  This has nothing to do with Mustachiam.

Also, Mustachism is not about eskewing all new innovations.  It is about consciousness choice.  MMM evaluated an electric car, right?  That’s still emerging technology (as in not mainstream yet).

So, yes, you may need to move and eventually may need to move again.  :-(

[aceyou]

If you are thoughtful about it, you can usually have the best of both worlds. 

For example, we live in a neighborhood where most people make similar incomes to my wife and I (household incomes are likely almost all between 100-200k in our neighborhood).  All the houses in our neighborhood are between 300-350k. 

However, my wife and are saving 60% of our income, and national averages (and the eye test) suggest that my neighbors are spending 90%+ of their income.  We easily accomplish this because:

- We don't do expensive remodels.  It's common for our neighbors to spend tens of thousands of dollars redoing their kitchens, bathrooms, etc.  Ours looks about as beautiful as theirs, and we've spend a tenth on that kind of stuff as most of our neighbors.  Despite this, our house is still worth about the same as theirs.

- we got a 15 year mortgage and put 20% down.  Because of this, we only pay about 4k in mortgage interest per year. 

- We do all our own landscaping, yard work, snow removal, housecleaning, etc. ourselves.  Our neighbors burn thousands a year on this kind of stuff. 

-  A perk of living in our neighborhood is a fantastic public school.  However, many in our neighborhood send their children to a very expensive private school in town that actually as far worse athletics and fewer academic offerings.  Depending on the number of kids, that could be well over 10k per year.

- both driving 5k prius's, driving them about 6k miles per year, and getting PLPD insurance on them.  The cars look clean, new, and sharp, but they are not new/leased SUV's like the majority of vehicles in our neighborhood are.

I could keep going on and on, but you get the idea.  We are living amongst our social and economic class, but we are spending SO much less.  The irony is that because of all this, we are moving into a much higher economic class than our neighbors, they just have no idea.  From outside appearances though, we more or less look just like them. 

[heybro]

I think I get what you are saying, it might be easier for others to relate if you gave some specific examples of the problems i.e.: I used to live around a lot of friends, young professionals and peers, now there are some drug addicts and issues with stolen property, police are here weekly for altercations, etc.

The above is what I was understanding the OP to mean.

And it is how it played out for my parents (who were mustachians back in the 80s). They felt strongly about living in the same area where they grew up which was a nice blend of blue and white collar when they were kids - decidedly middle class. But they very purposefully did not buy into lifestyle inflation as they moved up their career ladders.

By the time I was in elementary school we were the only white collar family on our block. By the time I was in high school my whole neighborhood was pretty lower middle class - lots of problems with drugs, theft, only 10% of my HS class went on to a 4 year college, I can name 10 classmates off the top of my head that died from overdoses in the last 15 years, etc.

I think the reality of it is, unless you are in very specific urban areas with limited land for building, people will always move to nicer homes if they can. And if your neighbors aren't interested in improving their existing home, then nicer = newer. If everyone around you has moved to new builds, it doesn't matter how nice you keep your property, the neighborhood will go downhill. Who would want a three bed, one bath 1000 sqft home, when they could easily afford two bathrooms and nicer materials? Also I think in certain parts of the midwest and LCOL areas, property is so relatively cheap that people really do just move instead of updating/maintaining their existing homes.

I like OPs theory of class inflation. I really appreciate the environment that I was raised in because it gave me an appreciation for the privileges that I was born into and an understanding of how people can be very hardworking and still never get ahead. BUT (big but), I would NEVER, EVER, move my family into the neighborhood that I was raised in.

As an adult with children, I very purposefully moved into a neighborhood several rungs up the class ladder. I can afford it, and we are pretty darn mustachian, but if our neighborhood ever started going downhill like the one I grew up in, you could bet I'd get out of Dodge right quick!

Thank you so much for understanding.  This is exactly what I am talking about!