Is anyone here still actually aiming for under MMM's original 25k a year figure?

[JGS1980]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing? Most people starting on the FIRE journey today cannot buy a house for as little as people did 15 years ago. Some people value living near family in areas that happen to be expensive. Also, it can sometimes be easier for people to find a high paying job and live on a “high” budget than it is for them to find cheap housing. We all have different life goals and financial constraints. Let’s just assume everyone is thoughtfully trying their best.

Disagree. Pretty much the entire rest of the internet + real life people will coddle you as much as you like. A reality check once in awhile is a good thing.

Agree with Zikoris -> more reality checks, please. We all live in our own bubbles and we all benefit from having them popped every now and then.

[cannotWAIT]

I'm very glad you started the thread. I'm quite new to this whole thing, having only stumbled across it a few months ago in a fit of pique about my job and wondering if I could afford to quit. I'm already 55 and although the basic principles seem to say that I can afford to quit soon, it's really hard to feel like that's a rational decision when most of the people you read about have so very much more and are still not sure they can retire. I know that the whole topic is a retread for many but I have searched the forums here for examples of people in a similar situation to mine and they're surprisingly few. And I love the rigorous approach to frugality, which has prompted me to make a lot of changes that surprisingly have not lowered my quality of life one bit.

[swashbucklinstache]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing? Most people starting on the FIRE journey today cannot buy a house for as little as people did 15 years ago. Some people value living near family in areas that happen to be expensive. Also, it can sometimes be easier for people to find a high paying job and live on a “high” budget than it is for them to find cheap housing. We all have different life goals and financial constraints. Let’s just assume everyone is thoughtfully trying their best.

Disagree. Pretty much the entire rest of the internet + real life people will coddle you as much as you like. A reality check once in awhile is a good thing.

I think face punches are great for people who ask for feedback, who want to know how to go faster, or people complaining in a way open to feedback and not just venting. I think that's where most of them happen, too. I also like people sharing their fun paper towel dry and reuse tidbits even if they put a couple of drops of holier-than on it, like MMM. Or not spending in order to not make the world a worse place. I also really like when people say "yes, but it's probably best to say that living in Manhattan is your luxury spending" to bring people back to taking accountability for their choices, and double points when we add examples of people in similar circumstances making different choices and being happy. Triple points if the punchee in question is a person in the first sentence of this paragraph.

However I do silently chuckle a bit about people chiming in that they are actually comfortable washing their towels every 8 weeks to one up someone saying 7 or, as a powerlifter, the context-free grocery spend olympics.

[Freedomin5]

And I love the rigorous approach to frugality, which has prompted me to make a lot of changes that surprisingly have not lowered my quality of life one bit.

I think this is also an important point. Before starting on my MMM journey, I was under the assumption that you needed to spend more to get a better quality of life. The folks here had me considering how I might maintain or improve our lifestyle while reducing expenses.

Case in point: I used to work a very well-paying but also very stressful job. I thought I had to in order to maximize income. We minimized spending by living in a tiny rental apartment, etc. We were able to save $X per month, a nice big chunk of money. After becoming comfortable with the principles espoused on this forum and learning how to run the numbers, I realized that I could take a lower paying job (with better benefits), and still save the same amount of money each month!

Our quality of life has now improved -- larger, better apartment; private school tuition; better work hours; lower stress job with fewer responsibilities -- and our savings level has remained the same. I don't think living below 25K and frugality necessarily involves lowering quality of life or not having "nice things".

[Ron Scott]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing?

When the belief set or values of the in-group are challenged, there will often be some who feel threatened and react by attacking the person while ignoring the argument they can’t successfully counter. Silly but real. It’s much better for all to engage with logic and reach agreements by clarifying their real differences.

AN EXAMPLE: It seems to me the frugal purists would do best to separate themselves from very broad use of the “FIRE” label and clarify explicitly that their values are also defined by low-asset frugal living. For that legitimate group (“Frugal FIREs), FI could  actually be defined by a dollar range, e.g., $700,000 to $1.2M. They could argue that anyone could Frugal FIRE with invested assets in that range—but respect those who may choose a different FIRE path, with assets in the millions.

The creation of sub-groups that define their differences and respect each other is natural and healthy.

The alternative is continued holier-than-thou claims of moral superiority that we all would agree are tiring.

[Morning Glory]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing?

When the belief set or values of the in-group are challenged, there will often be some who feel threatened and react by attacking the person while ignoring the argument they can’t successfully counter. Silly but real. It’s much better for all to engage with logic and reach agreements by clarifying their real differences.

AN EXAMPLE: It seems to me the frugal purists would do best to separate themselves from very broad use of the “FIRE” label and clarify explicitly that their values are also defined by low-asset frugal living. For that legitimate group (“Frugal FIREs), FI could  actually be defined by a dollar range, e.g., $700,000 to $1.2M. They could argue that anyone could Frugal FIRE with invested assets in that range—but respect those who may choose a different FIRE path, with assets in the millions.

The creation of sub-groups that define their differences and respect each other is natural and healthy.

The alternative is continued holier-than-thou claims of moral superiority that we all would agree are tiring.

I don't think anyone feels threatened.  Slightly annoyed about being accused of being threatened, or silly, or holier than thou...maybe. Annoyed about being accused of making ad hominem attacks or not using logic...probably. I'm annoyed about it and I don't think I've even posted in this thread yet.

 How is less than 1.2m "low-asset" anyway?  There was another thread about that being the 90th percentile of household assets in the US.  Your fire path is just not accessible to that many of us.

[Zikoris]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing?

When the belief set or values of the in-group are challenged, there will often be some who feel threatened and react by attacking the person while ignoring the argument they can’t successfully counter. Silly but real. It’s much better for all to engage with logic and reach agreements by clarifying their real differences.

AN EXAMPLE: It seems to me the frugal purists would do best to separate themselves from very broad use of the “FIRE” label and clarify explicitly that their values are also defined by low-asset frugal living. For that legitimate group (“Frugal FIREs), FI could  actually be defined by a dollar range, e.g., $700,000 to $1.2M. They could argue that anyone could Frugal FIRE with invested assets in that range—but respect those who may choose a different FIRE path, with assets in the millions.

The creation of sub-groups that define their differences and respect each other is natural and healthy.

The alternative is continued holier-than-thou claims of moral superiority that we all would agree are tiring.

I wouldn't say the purists (myself included) give two shits what dollar range someone's FIRE assets fit into. Purist FIRE is focused on environmentalism and reducing consumption so that we don't all die from the effects of climate change and a destroyed planet. Of course there's an element of moral superiority, but only because OBVIOUSLY a person espousing consuming at a rate that will kill everyone is in a worse moral position than a person espousing the opposite. I mean, duh? "Man, it's so tiring when these holier-than-thou people tell me to stop burning down the rainforest, I just want to overconsume in peace and stick my head in the sand. CAN'T YOU SEE I'M DOING MY BEST HERE" Sounds dumb, right?

[effigy98]

Have about 50k in expenses per year and want another 50k a year for fun, stuff that breaks, etc. Want to have a business that I can write off most of my income so I get all the government handouts without actually having to do much work.

[bmjohnson35]

I didn't mean to indicate that I "aimed" for MMM's stated figures or specific lifestyle.  I simply posted our actual amounts relative to the $25k reference.  I suppose I failed to properly read the subject.  I don't know how many others did this.   

[nereo]

AN EXAMPLE: It seems to me the frugal purists would do best to separate themselves from very broad use of the “FIRE” label and clarify explicitly that their values are also defined by low-asset frugal living. For that legitimate group (“Frugal FIREs), FI could  actually be defined by a dollar range, e.g., $700,000 to $1.2M. They could argue that anyone could Frugal FIRE with invested assets in that range—but respect those who may choose a different FIRE path, with assets in the millions.

To quote MMM: If you think this is about extreme frugality you are missing the point.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

[BookLoverL]

I didn't mean to indicate that I "aimed" for MMM's stated figures or specific lifestyle.  I simply posted our actual amounts relative to the $25k reference.  I suppose I failed to properly read the subject.  I don't know how many others did this.   

To clarify, I didn't mean that anyone should copy him exactly - just whether anyone was going for that general sort of amount, since it *was* the original selling point of his blog in the first place.

[Metalcat]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing?

When the belief set or values of the in-group are challenged, there will often be some who feel threatened and react by attacking the person while ignoring the argument they can’t successfully counter. Silly but real. It’s much better for all to engage with logic and reach agreements by clarifying their real differences.

AN EXAMPLE: It seems to me the frugal purists would do best to separate themselves from very broad use of the “FIRE” label and clarify explicitly that their values are also defined by low-asset frugal living. For that legitimate group (“Frugal FIREs), FI could  actually be defined by a dollar range, e.g., $700,000 to $1.2M. They could argue that anyone could Frugal FIRE with invested assets in that range—but respect those who may choose a different FIRE path, with assets in the millions.

The creation of sub-groups that define their differences and respect each other is natural and healthy.

The alternative is continued holier-than-thou claims of moral superiority that we all would agree are tiring.

It's so fun when new people come here, don't know the history, have no idea what the conversation and context around this has been, and then lecture us.

I enjoy that.

[havregryn]

I am 37 and over the last 20 years I've lived on a range of income/expenses that went from what would roughly be 200$ a month (yes, that was doable as an 18 year old student in a poor Eastern European country that still had a lot of its "socialist" heritage functioning)  to what is now over 78000€ per year (88k $) in one of the richest places on the planet where this doesn't actually buy all that fancy of a lifestyle (we don't own a car and live in a 90m2 apartment with 3 kids, any McMansion proper would alone cost more than 78k per year).  My main takeaways from this and everything that was in between:
1. How good of a quality of life you can have is actually less dependent on how much you are able/willing to spend but what kind of societal infrastructure exists around you and what is available to you at a humane level of cost. In a place that is designed to be liveable for poor people you will have a vastly better life with 25k than you will in some wild, inequality infested dystopia with 250k. My life as a student was actually a very happy one. I spent all of my time studying and hanging out with like-minded individuals, going to free screenings of artsy movies, hanging out at the library and browsing flea markets for some really cool fashion. Lack of any real kind of money was obvious from not being able to even imagine international travel or any kind of fluff, but I wasn't really lacking any necessities and there was something fun and enjoyable about treating buying cleaning supplies as a shopping spree.

2. The true Mustachian feat is not so much resisting (a moderate amount of) lifestyle inflation as your income goes up, it's being able to keep your sense of satisfaction and values when your income goes down (in reality, or in theory, if you're assuming lower expenses in retirement or living with the risk that you cannot easily replace your well-paid gig should it go away).
I don't really see that there is something inherently virtuous in trying to live like a broke college student when you are making a six figure income. The goal is to accept that this income is not your guaranteed right or an absolute necessity for the rest of your life and being able to plan your life in a way that you can maintain your sense of happiness with it or without it. So I don't think that me spending a lot of money on buying presents or educational opportunities for my kids is an inherently wasteful thing, it is rather an exercise of a good kind of privilege. I don't dare to buy  a McMansion though, as the only scenario in which that is sustainable is one where we commit to the idea that our current income levels are possible and necessary for the rest of our lives . Now THAT feels like a weird tradeoff to make.

So, I get both sides of this argument, I find it equally annoying when people insist that 25k per year cannot be done (of course it can be done if you are somewhere where your basic needs are met for less (but I can't comment on the fact whether such a place exists in the US, so that's not the point)) and when people insist it must be done (if you live somewhere expensive but moving would completely wreck your qualify of life through all the disruption it would cause, why would you do it just to flex Mustachian muscles!? We could in theory move across the border into one of the cheaper neighbor countries but dealing with schooling and commuting would be an absolute torture and the whole point of us being here is the fact that we DO earn enough money to save and invest even after paying through the nose to live here).

[Ron Scott]

. In a place that is designed to be liveable for poor people you will have a vastly better life with 25k

I agree completely. Choosing to live in a place that is essentially unaffordable for you can be unnecessarily stressful.

Which reminds me of the Fran Lebowitz quote about NYC: “I’d be glad to move out of Manhattan…but where can you go??”

[AlanStache]

Have been trying to read to the end of this thread but it keeps growing to fast.

I dont think asking if you spend MMM's original 25k/year is quite the right question.  I think it would be better to ask "are you as frugal as MMM"?  This change incorporates the complication of rent/mortgage/payed off house as well as giving some slack for differences in life.  ie if you have two kids in day care your expenses will almost certainly be higher than Petes but you might be as frugal as him.  Your "frugal score" does not change the month you pay off your mortgage even if your spending does. 

[the_fixer]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing?

When the belief set or values of the in-group are challenged, there will often be some who feel threatened and react by attacking the person while ignoring the argument they can’t successfully counter. Silly but real. It’s much better for all to engage with logic and reach agreements by clarifying their real differences.

AN EXAMPLE: It seems to me the frugal purists would do best to separate themselves from very broad use of the “FIRE” label and clarify explicitly that their values are also defined by low-asset frugal living. For that legitimate group (“Frugal FIREs), FI could  actually be defined by a dollar range, e.g., $700,000 to $1.2M. They could argue that anyone could Frugal FIRE with invested assets in that range—but respect those who may choose a different FIRE path, with assets in the millions.

The creation of sub-groups that define their differences and respect each other is natural and healthy.

The alternative is continued holier-than-thou claims of moral superiority that we all would agree are tiring.

I wouldn't say the purists (myself included) give two shits what dollar range someone's FIRE assets fit into. Purist FIRE is focused on environmentalism and reducing consumption so that we don't all die from the effects of climate change and a destroyed planet. Of course there's an element of moral superiority, but only because OBVIOUSLY a person espousing consuming at a rate that will kill everyone is in a worse moral position than a person espousing the opposite. I mean, duh? "Man, it's so tiring when these holier-than-thou people tell me to stop burning down the rainforest, I just want to overconsume in peace and stick my head in the sand. CAN'T YOU SEE I'M DOING MY BEST HERE" Sounds dumb, right?

Slow clap approved


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[roomtempmayo]

Interesting topic, I want to add something I haven't seen mentioned yet: "replay value" of a forum like this.  While there are some active vets on here, generally I think the forum caters to folks just getting set on the FIRE path.  Once you get the principles, I just don't think there is much to come back for. 

Great post, and it shows the value of the ongoing facepunches.

A person can learn all the head-knowledge they need about saving and investing in an hour or two of reading to put themselves on the path for a solid conventional retirement using auto withdrawals and stock indexing.

A person with an above average income can read for an afternoon and know everything necessary to become wealthy fairly rapidly.

So why come back?

I think for many folks it's because the challenges on the path to wealth aren't matters of head knowledge, they're their mentality and behavior.

The facepunches and the journals are something like the informal financial equivalent of ongoing Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy for people raised in a cult of consumption who are trying to change their lives while still living mostly within that consumptive culture.

It's not about knowing how to do it, it's about being motivated to follow through.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing?

When the belief set or values of the in-group are challenged, there will often be some who feel threatened and react by attacking the person while ignoring the argument they can’t successfully counter. Silly but real. It’s much better for all to engage with logic and reach agreements by clarifying their real differences.

AN EXAMPLE: It seems to me the frugal purists would do best to separate themselves from very broad use of the “FIRE” label and clarify explicitly that their values are also defined by low-asset frugal living. For that legitimate group (“Frugal FIREs), FI could  actually be defined by a dollar range, e.g., $700,000 to $1.2M. They could argue that anyone could Frugal FIRE with invested assets in that range—but respect those who may choose a different FIRE path, with assets in the millions.

The creation of sub-groups that define their differences and respect each other is natural and healthy.

The alternative is continued holier-than-thou claims of moral superiority that we all would agree are tiring.

umm...kettle pot?  We are bombarded from birth to death from every corner of the internet, TV, and print ads with the message to spend more, buy bigger, buy fancier, but newer, buy often, upgrade upgrade upgrade as a means to have a "good" life. You NEED it to be complete. And you'll need to work - long and a lot - to be able to afford the monthly payments on it. I mean how can you get outside and enjoy a hike or bike or climb without the $100k ginormous SUV to haul your butt up the mountain? Drive the used compact to the trail head and actually hike or bike up? That's crazy talk! Can't do it without that new Canyonaro. So sit that butt down in your Swedish designed heated custom leather office chair and work work work until you are old because Canyonaro!!

My point is that we ARE bombarded with that message ALL THE TIME and from EVERYWHERE. There are trillions of websites that promote increased consumption in order to have a better life both immediately and at a normal retirement age. But very very very few that do the opposite. MMM is one of those places. His message is simple: decrease consumption to have a better life both now in the future. Becoming FI with the ability to RE is a side benefit of that. As well as reducing environmental impact and increasing health and fitness. Why do normal age retirees have such a problem with that? Why do you come to one of the extremely few blogs promoting such things and say we are getting our panties in an bunch because we are here to learn those tactics that we are seeking for a better life? You make a lot of assumptions about income levels vs. spending levels that are not correct. I'm high asset but low income by choice as many here are. Just because you have more to spend doesn't mean you HAVE to spend it.

Can I get an amen?

[the_fixer]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing?

When the belief set or values of the in-group are challenged, there will often be some who feel threatened and react by attacking the person while ignoring the argument they can’t successfully counter. Silly but real. It’s much better for all to engage with logic and reach agreements by clarifying their real differences.

AN EXAMPLE: It seems to me the frugal purists would do best to separate themselves from very broad use of the “FIRE” label and clarify explicitly that their values are also defined by low-asset frugal living. For that legitimate group (“Frugal FIREs), FI could  actually be defined by a dollar range, e.g., $700,000 to $1.2M. They could argue that anyone could Frugal FIRE with invested assets in that range—but respect those who may choose a different FIRE path, with assets in the millions.

The creation of sub-groups that define their differences and respect each other is natural and healthy.

The alternative is continued holier-than-thou claims of moral superiority that we all would agree are tiring.

umm...kettle pot?  We are bombarded from birth to death from every corner of the internet, TV, and print ads with the message to spend more, buy bigger, buy fancier, but newer, buy often, upgrade upgrade upgrade as a means to have a "good" life. You NEED it to be complete. And you'll need to work - long and a lot - to be able to afford the monthly payments on it. I mean how can you get outside and enjoy a hike or bike or climb without the $100k ginormous SUV to haul your butt up the mountain? Drive the used compact to the trail head and actually hike or bike up? That's crazy talk! Can't do it without that new Canyonaro. So sit that butt down in your Swedish designed heated custom leather office chair and work work work until you are old because Canyonaro!!

My point is that we ARE bombarded with that message ALL THE TIME and from EVERYWHERE. There are trillions of websites that promote increased consumption in order to have a better life both immediately and at a normal retirement age. But very very very few that do the opposite. MMM is one of those places. His message is simple: decrease consumption to have a better life both now in the future. Becoming FI with the ability to RE is a side benefit of that. As well as reducing environmental impact and increasing health and fitness. Why do normal age retirees have such a problem with that? Why do you come to one of the extremely few blogs promoting such things and say we are getting our panties in an bunch because we are here to learn those tactics that we are seeking for a better life? You make a lot of assumptions about income levels vs. spending levels that are not correct. I'm high asset but low income by choice as many here are. Just because you have more to spend doesn't mean you HAVE to spend it.

ETA: I'm not saying anyone is wrong for living their lives and spending on stuff how they want. I'm just curious why some people like @ronscott are so against the ideas that are presented in this blog and forum as an alternative view to to usual way things are done in wider western society.

Maybe they are still in the accumulation phase and trying to ensure enough consumer suckers do not go down the FIRE route and erode the earning capacity of their stocks :)

Us bottom feeding, get rich slow, S&P 500 owning, poverty level living scum need to make a living somehow… viva la revolution




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

LOL. I personally don't care if someone spends $200/month or $200k/month. It's all situational and depends on everyone's own needs, wants and values. I just get a little miffed when someone tells those of us who voluntarily choose to live a simpler, less consumer-driven life (at a blog which is dedicated to those ideals) and tells us our responses are illogical and we feel threatened and attack. Or that we as doing FIRE wrong. But mainly I'd just like to understand why they feel that way. I don't get it but really don't care anymore just curious.

My dime store psychological take is that it's insecurity for their position. It's like going to a message board for a dating website and complaining that no one is accepting of people who just want to stay single lol. You either really don't know the message of the site or you feel an overly strong need to defend your point to a group founded on a different message.

[Metalcat]

LOL. I personally don't care if someone spends $200/month or $200k/month. It's all situational and depends on everyone's own needs, wants and values. I just get a little miffed when someone tells those of us who voluntarily choose to live a simpler, less consumer-driven life (at a blog which is dedicated to those ideals) and tells us our responses are illogical and we feel threatened and attack. Or that we as doing FIRE wrong. But mainly I'd just like to understand why they feel that way. I don't get it but really don't care anymore just curious.

My dime store psychological take is that it's insecurity for their position. It's like going to a message board for a dating website and complaining that no one is accepting of people who just want to stay single lol. You either really don't know the message of the site or you feel an overly strong need to defend your point to a group founded on a different message.

I'm actually a little more generous towards their personal position. I totally understand if, but I DO NOT appreciate someone strolling into an established community that provides A LOT of value and shitting all over narratives that they don't understand the basis of.

Perhaps ask questions, take an interest as to why the messaging is this way. Don't just roll in, take a huge dump, and expect to be embraced for it.

There is a rational REASON why a certain population complain about the place getting soft and why they are vocal about defending frugality. I'm just SICK of having to explain it.

Usually what happens is that people read the blog, then come here and think that everyone holds dogmatic views that align with MMM, so when they see strong defenses of low spends and frugality, they think that the dominant culture here is dogmatic.

The reality is that it isn't. The dominant culture here is very, very spendy and the values of frugality have all but disappeared, and there are a few people who try to sustain them because for years, the value of this place was to come here and have your *normal* spendy urges challenged.

This was one of the only placed you could come where the dominant social message wasn't "spend more to be happy". You would come here and be made to think critically about your spending habits and choices.

Well, now you can come here and talk about buying a 1.5M house, sending your kid to private school, buying brand new luxury cars, flying business class, and collecting literal gemstones because you like the idea of having a pirate treasure of gems, because "you can afford it" and you will get very little push back, and if you do get any push back, someone will inevitably bark at the person pushing back that the OP has a right to spend their money as they please "if they can afford it".

I mean, sure, that's true. But you don't need to come to a frugality forum to get support for your consumerism. The REST OF THE WORLD will provide you that.

It's just basic manners to get to know a community, it's purpose, and it's values before lecturing it's established members that they're stupid.

[sonofsven]

I was glad to read the thread. I'm also very low spend, and low make, so it's nice to see other's numbers.

[secondcor521]

I'm just SICK of having to explain it.

What do you think would happen if you stopped?

[coppertop]

[/img]

LOL. I personally don't care if someone spends $200/month or $200k/month. It's all situational and depends on everyone's own needs, wants and values. I just get a little miffed when someone tells those of us who voluntarily choose to live a simpler, less consumer-driven life (at a blog which is dedicated to those ideals) and tells us our responses are illogical and we feel threatened and attack. Or that we as doing FIRE wrong. But mainly I'd just like to understand why they feel that way. I don't get it but really don't care anymore just curious.

My dime store psychological take is that it's insecurity for their position. It's like going to a message board for a dating website and complaining that no one is accepting of people who just want to stay single lol. You either really don't know the message of the site or you feel an overly strong need to defend your point to a group founded on a different message.

I'm actually a little more generous towards their personal position. I totally understand if, but I DO NOT appreciate someone strolling into an established community that provides A LOT of value and shitting all over narratives that they don't understand the basis of.

Perhaps ask questions, take an interest as to why the messaging is this way. Don't just roll in, take a huge dump, and expect to be embraced for it.

There is a rational REASON why a certain population complain about the place getting soft and why they are vocal about defending frugality. I'm just SICK of having to explain it.

Usually what happens is that people read the blog, then come here and think that everyone holds dogmatic views that align with MMM, so when they see strong defenses of low spends and frugality, they think that the dominant culture here is dogmatic.

The reality is that it isn't. The dominant culture here is very, very spendy and the values of frugality have all but disappeared, and there are a few people who try to sustain them because for years, the value of this place was to come here and have your *normal* spendy urges challenged.

This was one of the only placed you could come where the dominant social message wasn't "spend more to be happy". You would come here and be made to think critically about your spending habits and choices.

Well, now you can come here and talk about buying a 1.5M house, sending your kid to private school, buying brand new luxury cars, flying business class, and collecting literal gemstones because you like the idea of having a pirate treasure of gems, because "you can afford it" and you will get very little push back, and if you do get any push back, someone will inevitably bark at the person pushing back that the OP has a right to spend their money as they please "if they can afford it".

I mean, sure, that's true. But you don't need to come to a frugality forum to get support for your consumerism. The REST OF THE WORLD will provide you that.

It's just basic manners to get to know a community, it's purpose, and it's values before lecturing it's established members that they're stupid.

Hear, hear!!!

[Metalcat]

I'm just SICK of having to explain it.

What do you think would happen if you stopped?

I am not in a good enough mood to answer this.

[nereo]

I'm just SICK of having to explain it.

What do you think would happen if you stopped?

I believe it would certainly dilute the messages of this forum further. One of the inherent problems of open forums is that new members can participate with absolutely zero comprehension of the ethos. In the worst cases these posts are filled with ad hominem attacks and erroneous comments like “but you haven’t considered ____ so it doesn’t really work” when we had countless threads and some very in-depth discussion on that very point.  It just gets utterly exhausting to see these comments pop up. 
But like misinformation everywhere, if you don’t address them they have tendency to spread.  Which cheapens the forum and the reasons we like to hang out here.

[Morning Glory]

...FI could  actually be defined by a dollar range, e.g., $700,000 to $1.2M. They could argue that anyone could Frugal FIRE with invested assets in that range—but respect those who may choose a different FIRE path, with assets in the millions.

This part pissed me off the most: the idea that "anyone" can FIRE with upwards of 700k. Maybe anyone whose income is already in the top 25% of the US population. Someone on minimum wage would have to live very frugally just to get to 700k by traditional retirement age!!! A "different FIRE path with assets in the millions" is not a choice for even middle class mustachians. Implying that its something people choose is just insulting. One must be very lucky indeed to have that choice available. The idea that those lucky individuals deserve our respect because of their "choice" smacks of meritocracy.

[Morning Glory]

I'm just SICK of having to explain it.

What do you think would happen if you stopped?

MMM becomes the new Bogelheads with Suze Ormand ("I HATE HATE HATE FIRE") as our new Dear Leader? Ok maybe not that bad but I'm sure it would make a lot of us feel like we are some sort of weirdo outliers even more so then we already do and most would slink away. One of the hardest parts about both retiring early, especially fairly young, and living a lower spending life it how little support network is out there. This was one of a very few and now that seems to be disappearing too. Guess I'll go drown my weirdo outlier sorrows by taking a bike ride to the beach and then a nap. Midday while everyone else is at work ;-).

lol  us peons will have to spend our precious life energy searching for cheaper spray tans ;)

[BookLoverL]

I ended up barely hanging out here at all and just checking in occasionally, and mostly going on ERE despite its much slower rate of new posts, just because I could never find any threads that were actually relevant to low earners *or* low spenders. Which means without lower spending people making posts and without people actually challenging spending, the more hardcore people (who may be aiming for a smaller amount out of necessity) just gradually drift away and the culture left behind here at MMM gradually becomes more similar to Bogleheads.

The point on here has never been to deprive yourself of happiness. The majority of low spenders on here are perfectly content with the amount of luxury in their budget. The point is to realise that the things you think you need to make you happy, you actually don't need. The point originally was to challenge *every* aspect of your budget - if you replace it with something cheaper and find your life standard has genuinely gone down, you can always start buying that thing again, but if you never consider cutting it in the first place, how will you ever know?

[Morning Glory]

I ended up barely hanging out here at all and just checking in occasionally, and mostly going on ERE despite its much slower rate of new posts, just because I could never find any threads that were actually relevant to low earners *or* low spenders. Which means without lower spending people making posts and without people actually challenging spending, the more hardcore people (who may be aiming for a smaller amount out of necessity) just gradually drift away and the culture left behind here at MMM gradually becomes more similar to Bogleheads.

The point on here has never been to deprive yourself of happiness. The majority of low spenders on here are perfectly content with the amount of luxury in their budget. The point is to realise that the things you think you need to make you happy, you actually don't need. The point originally was to challenge *every* aspect of your budget - if you replace it with something cheaper and find your life standard has genuinely gone down, you can always start buying that thing again, but if you never consider cutting it in the first place, how will you ever know?

Welcome back frugal friend!!!!!

[yachi]

LOL. I personally don't care if someone spends $200/month or $200k/month. It's all situational and depends on everyone's own needs, wants and values. I just get a little miffed when someone tells those of us who voluntarily choose to live a simpler, less consumer-driven life (at a blog which is dedicated to those ideals) and tells us our responses are illogical and we feel threatened and attack. Or that we as doing FIRE wrong. But mainly I'd just like to understand why they feel that way. I don't get it but really don't care anymore just curious.

My dime store psychological take is that it's insecurity for their position. It's like going to a message board for a dating website and complaining that no one is accepting of people who just want to stay single lol. You either really don't know the message of the site or you feel an overly strong need to defend your point to a group founded on a different message.

I'm actually a little more generous towards their personal position. I totally understand if, but I DO NOT appreciate someone strolling into an established community that provides A LOT of value and shitting all over narratives that they don't understand the basis of.

Perhaps ask questions, take an interest as to why the messaging is this way. Don't just roll in, take a huge dump, and expect to be embraced for it.

There is a rational REASON why a certain population complain about the place getting soft and why they are vocal about defending frugality. I'm just SICK of having to explain it.

Usually what happens is that people read the blog, then come here and think that everyone holds dogmatic views that align with MMM, so when they see strong defenses of low spends and frugality, they think that the dominant culture here is dogmatic.

The reality is that it isn't. The dominant culture here is very, very spendy and the values of frugality have all but disappeared, and there are a few people who try to sustain them because for years, the value of this place was to come here and have your *normal* spendy urges challenged.

This was one of the only placed you could come where the dominant social message wasn't "spend more to be happy". You would come here and be made to think critically about your spending habits and choices.

Well, now you can come here and talk about buying a 1.5M house, sending your kid to private school, buying brand new luxury cars, flying business class, and collecting literal gemstones because you like the idea of having a pirate treasure of gems, because "you can afford it" and you will get very little push back, and if you do get any push back, someone will inevitably bark at the person pushing back that the OP has a right to spend their money as they please "if they can afford it".

I mean, sure, that's true. But you don't need to come to a frugality forum to get support for your consumerism. The REST OF THE WORLD will provide you that.

It's just basic manners to get to know a community, it's purpose, and it's values before lecturing it's established members that they're stupid.

I appreciate this.  I see it a lot when looking at case studies.  "Sure you have enough to ER on current spending, but wait until X"
Where X is any of: children become teenagers, you pick up hobbies you've never had before, you have more time during the day to do things, you get old, you get bored.

I imagine some people see low spending and insert things they do for themselves, justifying that it's because they're at a different stage in life rather than believe others can be happy with more frugality.

[cannotWAIT]

Well I encourage the rest of you lower-asset/lower-spenders to stay and share your experiences. I'm here and I'm very interested in what you have to say.

[StarBright]

The point is to realise that the things you think you need to make you happy, you actually don't need. The point originally was to challenge *every* aspect of your budget - if you replace it with something cheaper and find your life standard has genuinely gone down, you can always start buying that thing again, but if you never consider cutting it in the first place, how will you ever know?

I wonder if some of that has also shifted with the longevity of the forum? I'm not as old-timey as some, but I've been around awhile. I was definitely uber frugal my first couple of years on the forum (our spend was sub 35k with a family of 4, including daycare costs for two), but it drifted up as I was unhappy with our standard of life at that spend.

Am I better off for those years of super low spend? Financially, for sure! Everyone should try it :)

[bloodaxe]

Our spend is ~24k annually for a two person household.

The three biggest items in someone's budget are usually housing, transportation, and food.

Our rent is ok ($940/month)
Our transportation is low (share a paid off beater. Gas + maintenance + insurance = ~100/month)
Our food is ok (~$450/month)

I hang out more on ERE than MMM. I enjoy the ERE community more, though it has less posts then MMM.

[secondcor521]

I'm just SICK of having to explain it.

What do you think would happen if you stopped?

MMM becomes the new Bogelheads with Suze Ormand ("I HATE HATE HATE FIRE") as our new Dear Leader? Ok maybe not that bad but I'm sure it would make a lot of us feel like we are some sort of weirdo outliers even more so then we already do and most would slink away. One of the hardest parts about both retiring early, especially fairly young, and living a lower spending life it how little support network is out there. This was one of a very few and now that seems to be disappearing too. Guess I'll go drown my weirdo outlier sorrows by taking a bike ride to the beach and then a nap. Midday while everyone else is at work ;-).

Thank you for the answer, @spartana.  I appreciate it and the point of view.

My initial thought is I don't worry about it as much as others do because reasons, but I'm mulling it over and may be changing my opinion a bit.

Thanks again.

[mm1970]

I get so tired of the more-Mustachian-than-thou attitude on here sometimes. Can we all just recognize that everybody is an a different context and quit judging/comparing? Most people starting on the FIRE journey today cannot buy a house for as little as people did 15 years ago. Some people value living near family in areas that happen to be expensive. Also, it can sometimes be easier for people to find a high paying job and live on a “high” budget than it is for them to find cheap housing. We all have different life goals and financial constraints. Let’s just assume everyone is thoughtfully trying their best.

Disagree. Pretty much the entire rest of the internet + real life people will coddle you as much as you like. A reality check once in awhile is a good thing.

I agree with Zikoris and others on this.

This is a pretty fascinating thread.  I'm surprised I didn't read it earlier.

I used to be pretty hardcore, even prior to reading MMM, before kids.  Even kept it up for awhile after kid #1.

We've definitely loosened the purse strings as we've made more money and gotten busier ($ is a good exchange for time).

I *LIKE* that this place makes you think about your choices.  There are definitely areas where I have learned and changed.  There are places where I could do better.  I also like the differing opinions and methods.  Like: yes, for a long time I kept a really tight grocery budget and had a price book and shopped around and now...I don't do that.  I went on to just mostly finding cheap healthy meals and rotating them.  Then I loosened up even further to where I am now...which is about $900 a month, pretty close to MMM's "Killing your $1000 grocery budget."

I come here to be reminded that my 2BR house is JUST FINE and my 2006 Matrix is JUST FINE and I don't need new clothing thankyouverymuch - I have enough that fits.
I come here for the focus on the environment.
I come here for the focus on society - like, on one hand, face punch  me for my cleaning lady.  On the other hand, for an entire year we cleaned our own house and taught the kids to clean windows and stuff AND we still paid the cleaning lady because we could afford it, and they need to earn a living too!!
-----
$25k a year will not happen if we are still living in California when we retire, because our property taxes are currently $10k and probably will be $12k by then.
-----
Also, bubbles:  My local bubble is very liberal, and a lot of my coworkers and neighbors are very high earners.  However, several of my neighbors in my regular potluck group are low earners, close to retirement, self employed, some are renters...so my bubble isn't homogeneous.  I like it. 

Likewise, my relatives are very rural, very conservative and religious (a fair number of anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers in the mix).  Where I grew up, you CAN retire on $25k a year and the biggest concern is still health insurance.  It's an area where people still help each other out a lot, and are very independent.  They also die pretty young. 

I like to think that growing up poor and maintaining relationships with my family members, who are mostly middle class now, but lower middle, helps to keep me grounded.  Also, living in a VHCOL area where MOST of the students who are in school with my kids are really poor - well, this helps too.

[secondcor521]

@spartana, would you be willing to share your recent spending by category?  I'm impressed that it is as low as it is for California and the satisfied life you seem to live, and I wonder where mine differs.

Here's mine (numbers differ slightly from what I posted earlier as I update my numbers regularly):

House $3,729
Recreation $1,950
Medical $1,794
Auto $1,761
Utilities $1,574
Food $3,100 / 2 = $1,550
Clothing $407
Pets $233
Misc $179

The above is everything except College and Kids, and as noted previously I divide Food by 2 to account for my son living with me right now.  Oh, and the above is for the last six months, either double for annual numbers or divide by six for monthly.

Just sort of interested in a compare and contrast if you don't mind too much.  If you'd rather not share publicly or are busy, that's of course totally OK too.

[dizzy]

And I love the rigorous approach to frugality, which has prompted me to make a lot of changes that surprisingly have not lowered my quality of life one bit.

I think this is also an important point. Before starting on my MMM journey, I was under the assumption that you needed to spend more to get a better quality of life. The folks here had me considering how I might maintain or improve our lifestyle while reducing expenses.

Case in point: I used to work a very well-paying but also very stressful job. I thought I had to in order to maximize income. We minimized spending by living in a tiny rental apartment, etc. We were able to save $X per month, a nice big chunk of money. After becoming comfortable with the principles espoused on this forum and learning how to run the numbers, I realized that I could take a lower paying job (with better benefits), and still save the same amount of money each month!

Our quality of life has now improved -- larger, better apartment; private school tuition; better work hours; lower stress job with fewer responsibilities -- and our savings level has remained the same. I don't think living below 25K and frugality necessarily involves lowering quality of life or not having "nice things".

I'm thinking hard core about this.  While I AM glad that I used the last 2 years (I had a massive income jump for me from Sep 2019 to present day) I'm also spending a lot more- tolls, gas, parking fees.  I am happy I got my 1st 100k in that time on my salary which is super low compared to most here- but maybe that's a point of reference when to turn the dial down- if I can work less but save similarly. 

For instance I've been offered a barter and/or work exchange at a new CSA across town that's bikeable.  Maybe I go to the city to work 1-2 less days per week, but then also get free produce half the year and learn some skills, have more time/energy to cook so I don't get tempted for takeout in the city ever at work.  More time to do what my husband calls my "bank robberies" for extra money/credits etc.

TBH what I really want is a forum that's both into churning and also LCOL/simplicity/environmentally minded.  But this is a start and there are some cool discussions here.  What I don't like in FIRE forums is when I'm just told to make more money, switch careers, or that my student loans are "irresponsible" (was definitely misled about income possibilities in that career by my school/other professionals in that field; DO have a plan - PAYE/saving for tax bomb at forgiveness and am in good standing with it).  Not interested to change careers and tbh I like it, the only reason for me to FIRE is to have more schedule flexibility.

[Cassie]

I have been frugal most of my life. Being 67 I want to enjoy travel, etc and not deprive myself.  Even so I am not a big spender. I live on 31k/year excluding travel, vet bills and home/car repairs. I have savings for that. When I do go to Europe which has been 5xs in 19 years I aim for middle of the road in accommodation., etc. I am taking a 11 day tour of Ireland with a friend and it’s costing 4600 for everything including airfare. When I travel in the states it was with a RV or staying in Motel 6’s. 

The COL has become much higher in northern Nevada because of the huge influx of Californians. I own a small, older 2 bedroom condo with a small mortgage that would cost 1800/month to rent. I have 2 small dogs that are very important and expensive. I spend a lot on high quality food, dentals and vet bills as they age. I joined some meetup groups since my divorce a year ago and often go to happy hour versus dinners as I get to enjoy the friendship without a high cost. Having one drink is inexpensive. I also do no cost things such as walking and games with friends. I wouldn’t ever move as one of my kids lives here as do close friends. Really it’s all about how you chose to spend your money based on what’s important to you. HI is pricy at 330/month and will probably keep increasing. 

[tygertygertyger]

My solo FIRE plan was to hit 25k/year, but with my partner, we're aiming at 40k/yr. I'm in an odd position now where I'm maybe able to consider Coast FIRE, so I'm chewing on that. I've been saving as much as I can - I don't have a high income, but it's okay with our lowish spending. We used to splurge on big trips periodically (and "splurge" = extensively research to get the best value for every dollar still), but I'm not sure what post-Covid looks like for us yet. We've bought a smallish house so I'll be able to better figure out longer term budgeting once this initial buying stuff for the house phase is over.

Without this forum pushing me to think critically about purchases/savings/investments, I don't think we'd be in the good position we are.

PS even combined he and I have never surpassed 6 figures, so we're not among the high earners around here!

[Freedomin5]

And I love the rigorous approach to frugality, which has prompted me to make a lot of changes that surprisingly have not lowered my quality of life one bit.

I think this is also an important point. Before starting on my MMM journey, I was under the assumption that you needed to spend more to get a better quality of life. The folks here had me considering how I might maintain or improve our lifestyle while reducing expenses.

Case in point: I used to work a very well-paying but also very stressful job. I thought I had to in order to maximize income. We minimized spending by living in a tiny rental apartment, etc. We were able to save $X per month, a nice big chunk of money. After becoming comfortable with the principles espoused on this forum and learning how to run the numbers, I realized that I could take a lower paying job (with better benefits), and still save the same amount of money each month!

Our quality of life has now improved -- larger, better apartment; private school tuition; better work hours; lower stress job with fewer responsibilities -- and our savings level has remained the same. I don't think living below 25K and frugality necessarily involves lowering quality of life or not having "nice things".

I'm thinking hard core about this.  While I AM glad that I used the last 2 years (I had a massive income jump for me from Sep 2019 to present day) I'm also spending a lot more- tolls, gas, parking fees.  I am happy I got my 1st 100k in that time on my salary which is super low compared to most here- but maybe that's a point of reference when to turn the dial down- if I can work less but save similarly. 

For instance I've been offered a barter and/or work exchange at a new CSA across town that's bikeable.  Maybe I go to the city to work 1-2 less days per week, but then also get free produce half the year and learn some skills, have more time/energy to cook so I don't get tempted for takeout in the city ever at work.  More time to do what my husband calls my "bank robberies" for extra money/credits etc.

Exactly. Someone mentioned up thread that the three highest expenses are typically housing, transportation, and food. When I was looking to optimize, that’s what I focused on reducing. I figured, i would get more bang for my buck if I focused on reducing housing expenses rather than cutting a dollar here or a dollar there. Bartering, taking in a roommate, cooking at home, biking/getting rid of car, etc. would all be ways to maintain or improve lifestyle while hitting the categories that impact your expenses the most. Using these principles to guide your decision making may lead to options and choices that you weren’t aware even existed.

I learned about the biggest expense categories on this forum, which led me to thinking about how to reduce them, which led me to look for jobs that provide benefits in this area, which led me to my current work contract where the company provides free housing a 5-10 minute walk from work, drastically cutting both my housing and transportation costs (and giving me back time since my work commute went from 1 hour down to 10 minutes). Thinking of reducing food expenses led me to asking my local friends where they shopped which led me to the world of online grocery shopping rather than shopping exclusively at the overpriced expat supermarket.

[magus]

I haven't lived that cheap since I was in my early 20s. We like to travel internationally too much and have a wife that likes to shop/spend and we both like to eat out. And my career has taken off the last 10 years. Our normal budget these days looks like this:

$400k/yr income (+- $100k/yr depending on bonus/stock)
$150k/yr taxes
$150k/yr savings/investment
$100k/yr spending (Housing #1, Traveling #2, Food/dining out #3)

Could easily cut $20k off that spending without much effort but thats only 5% of my income and makes my wife happy. We'll pay off the house in ~4 years and that would cut $20k a year off our spending.

[Northern gal]

Really good topic, thank you for sharing.  I have done the last three years on sub A$20k / US$14k (we have free health insurance and no mortgage).

I do still aspire to a low fire budget  but I have also noticed my wants are growing, mostly around travel. My longer term thoughts are I will want two regional properties in alpine and tropical locations and oscillate between the two. Luckily, these can be had quite cheaply if you keep clear of St Moritz.

[Ron Scott]

I haven't lived that cheap since I was in my early 20s. We like to travel internationally too much and have a wife that likes to shop/spend and we both like to eat out. And my career has taken off the last 10 years. Our normal budget these days looks like this:

$400k/yr income (+- $100k/yr depending on bonus/stock)
$150k/yr taxes
$150k/yr savings/investment
$100k/yr spending (Housing #1, Traveling #2, Food/dining out #3)

Could easily cut $20k off that spending without much effort but thats only 5% of my income and makes my wife happy. We'll pay off the house in ~4 years and that would cut $20k a year off our spending.

Congrats on your saving rate and condolences on the taxes. America’s work horses are those who do it on W2s and 1099s…

[magus]

I personally at least think the the people who are earning and spending the higher figures but still saving are still of course doing a great job compared to other people in their income class. Mainly I started the thread because I was starting to feel out of place as a *lower* spender on here, and that people might be more inclined to tell me I was too extreme or that I ought to earn more money and my total income was clearly an unliveable amount, rather than have people actually challenge my spending.

I think the challenge is an important aspect of the forum and the MMM philosophy, or at least it used to be. The whole idea of posting about your expenses on here is so that someone with an outside perspective can suggest a place where you could save that you might not have thought of - if you want every expense of yours to be validated and insist you can't cut anything, you're not going to manage to increase your savings rate, when a big chunk of the forum is supposed to be about helping you do just that.

I think the key thing is to look at where someone's at right now and suggest initially adjustments that seem appropriate to their current level and mindset. e.g. if someone has a new car, starting by suggesting they switch to a used car, rather than straight away going to "have you considered selling it and going everywhere by foot, public transport, and bicycle". But if someone's car is already used and is also a big chunk of their yearly expenditure, then the second thing is probably what they might need to be considering if they want to get to a lower spend.

Actually, when I see someone with a high salary and high spend, I more end up judging myself rather than them, and feeling bad about my inability to earn more money...

I always enjoy reading people with different perspectives and anyone saving a large chunk of their income won't get much hassle from me. If it was just me, I could live fairly minimalist most of the time. DW would not have it though. Rather than massively cut back on our spending, about 13 years ago I decided to go all in to work my way up corp America to a high income. I went from $50k/year with no degree to target total comp of $600k+/year in the last 13 years to the new job I just started (undergrad + MBA now). Hard to believe at 40 now, I'm making 12x my dad's inflation adjusted peak year. I generally encourage youngsters to save 50% of any raises they get and spend the rest as a general rule of thumb.

$25k/yr would be tough here in Charlotte unless living with a roommate which not everyone wants. A studio in a decent (but not luxury) part of town rents for ~$12-14k/yr, not counting utilities. You could do $8k/yr in areas with much higher crime like north Charlotte or if you lived way outside of the city. Add in food, healthcare, transportation, etc it would be very tough. I've always read MMM post largely as motivation and some real examples, but not necessarily the suggested path for everyone.

MMM low spenders should be happy for high spenders though - standard of living would be a lot lower without folks like me paying a stupidly large amount of taxes and high spenders drive tax revenue and GDP in general, plus allows the 3-4% SWR to work in the first place!

[magus]

I haven't lived that cheap since I was in my early 20s. We like to travel internationally too much and have a wife that likes to shop/spend and we both like to eat out. And my career has taken off the last 10 years. Our normal budget these days looks like this:

$400k/yr income (+- $100k/yr depending on bonus/stock)
$150k/yr taxes
$150k/yr savings/investment
$100k/yr spending (Housing #1, Traveling #2, Food/dining out #3)

Could easily cut $20k off that spending without much effort but thats only 5% of my income and makes my wife happy. We'll pay off the house in ~4 years and that would cut $20k a year off our spending.

Congrats on your saving rate and condolences on the taxes. America’s work horses are those who do it on W2s and 1099s…

Thanks and you are correct! This year with my last company having sold, I'll pay more than double that in taxes for 2021

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I personally at least think the the people who are earning and spending the higher figures but still saving are still of course doing a great job compared to other people in their income class. Mainly I started the thread because I was starting to feel out of place as a *lower* spender on here, and that people might be more inclined to tell me I was too extreme or that I ought to earn more money and my total income was clearly an unliveable amount, rather than have people actually challenge my spending.

I think the challenge is an important aspect of the forum and the MMM philosophy, or at least it used to be. The whole idea of posting about your expenses on here is so that someone with an outside perspective can suggest a place where you could save that you might not have thought of - if you want every expense of yours to be validated and insist you can't cut anything, you're not going to manage to increase your savings rate, when a big chunk of the forum is supposed to be about helping you do just that.

I think the key thing is to look at where someone's at right now and suggest initially adjustments that seem appropriate to their current level and mindset. e.g. if someone has a new car, starting by suggesting they switch to a used car, rather than straight away going to "have you considered selling it and going everywhere by foot, public transport, and bicycle". But if someone's car is already used and is also a big chunk of their yearly expenditure, then the second thing is probably what they might need to be considering if they want to get to a lower spend.

Actually, when I see someone with a high salary and high spend, I more end up judging myself rather than them, and feeling bad about my inability to earn more money...

I always enjoy reading people with different perspectives and anyone saving a large chunk of their income won't get much hassle from me. If it was just me, I could live fairly minimalist most of the time. DW would not have it though. Rather than massively cut back on our spending, about 13 years ago I decided to go all in to work my way up corp America to a high income. I went from $50k/year with no degree to target total comp of $600k+/year in the last 13 years to the new job I just started (undergrad + MBA now). Hard to believe at 40 now, I'm making 12x my dad's inflation adjusted peak year. I generally encourage youngsters to save 50% of any raises they get and spend the rest as a general rule of thumb.

$25k/yr would be tough here in Charlotte unless living with a roommate which not everyone wants. A studio in a decent (but not luxury) part of town rents for ~$12-14k/yr, not counting utilities. You could do $8k/yr in areas with much higher crime like north Charlotte or if you lived way outside of the city. Add in food, healthcare, transportation, etc it would be very tough. I've always read MMM post largely as motivation and some real examples, but not necessarily the suggested path for everyone.

MMM low spenders should be happy for high spenders though - standard of living would be a lot lower without folks like me paying a stupidly large amount of taxes and high spenders drive tax revenue and GDP in general, plus allows the 3-4% SWR to work in the first place!

Not that you're saying this here, but I just want to comment on this since I was posted a pretty aggressive post on the pro-frugality side. I am actually a very high spender by what I consider the standards of this forum to be. I'm not angry at people who spend as much or more than me or anything. I'm working to improve and optimize things in my life and welcome the comments on here that help me to take a hard look at my life and see how I can improve it and improve my frugality.

On the flip side of this, I would never come on here and complain about people that provide good feedback and criticism of wastefulness (of which I have much) as being holier than thou or whatever. It just seems really silly and strange to do so on a MMM forum.

[secondcor521]

I also don't currently have a car and have medical thru the VA so minimal cost.

Thanks for the detailed reply, @spartana.

The above seems to be most of the difference - if I subtract those categories out, I'm down to about $16K per year.

At some point in the future when my kids have flown the coop I'll probably downsize.  Silly for me to live in a 1800 sqft 4 bedroom house.  But I don't know if that will save me any money because I'll probably half the size and double the price per square foot.

[lhamo]

I think there may be another issue underlying some of the skepticsm/criticism of the lower spending folk by higher spending folk that shows up here and in similar threads.

Most of us probably know people who could be classified as cheap rather than frugal.  Some of us may have them in our immediate circle of friends and relations.  Where different people draw the line between cheap and frugal is different, and may very much be related to the extent to which they have been taken advantage of, or seen other people or systems taken advantage of, by people they consider cheap.  Cheapness can show up in many forms.  The most obvious examples are the kinds of people who are happy to show up for meals out, etc. but then never pay their fair share of the bill (or pay at all because they "forgot" their wallet or credit cards).  Or the people who always show up to a potluck with a $.99 bag of chips.  Or the person who suggests trading labor around the house and yard for free or reduced rent, but then never seems to actually put in the labor.

Sometimes it is just a different point of view or definition.  I often advocate for those who can do so to consider keeping their income below the cutoff levels for expanded medicaid during FIRE.  This has been one of the ways we keep our overall household spending down.  I have gotten a bit of flack on this point by people who see me/my family as "taking advantage of the system."  They probably think I am cheap.  Maybe I am, but we are relatively light users of the healthcare system and my choice on this front is actually SAVING taxpayer dollars compared to what the government would have to pay in subsidies to health insurance companies should I instead choose to do a bunch of Roth conversions to put my income over the medicaid qualification thresholds.  Also, we paid over 200k in capital gains and extra Medicaid/medicare taxes for 2017 so it isn't like we never paid into the system. 

Additionally, I think we all can probably think of examples -- both here and in real life -- where someone's obsession with spending as little money as possible in one or more areas really has a detrimental effect on their quality of life, and maybe the quality of their relationships.  Also the sort of pathological scarcity fears that keep people in miserable work situations for OMY, TMY or longer at the expense of their mental and physical health.  I personally think that is an area where the change in tone over the past few years on this forum has been a positive thing -- quality of life is important and sometimes spending money or focusing less on accumulating it can mean a huge jump in quality of life for someone who previously had been overfocused on saving. 

Ultimately I hope most people are still finding encouragement here to really look at the relationship between their spending/saving and their quality of life.  Because what is really important is to figure out what the peak of the curve looks like for you and your household.  For some maybe that means staying in a HCOL area to be close to family and friends.  For others maybe it means a move to a LCOL area to start a new life.  Both are valid choices.  But they should be active choices, not just a default someone falls into without considering the other options.

[Ron Scott]

I haven't lived that cheap since I was in my early 20s. We like to travel internationally too much and have a wife that likes to shop/spend and we both like to eat out. And my career has taken off the last 10 years. Our normal budget these days looks like this:

$400k/yr income (+- $100k/yr depending on bonus/stock)
$150k/yr taxes
$150k/yr savings/investment
$100k/yr spending (Housing #1, Traveling #2, Food/dining out #3)

Could easily cut $20k off that spending without much effort but thats only 5% of my income and makes my wife happy. We'll pay off the house in ~4 years and that would cut $20k a year off our spending.

Congrats on your saving rate and condolences on the taxes. America’s work horses are those who do it on W2s and 1099s…

Thanks and you are correct! This year with my last company having sold, I'll pay more than double that in taxes for 2021

You know, I have always taken taxes in stride. Part of the cost…

But I’ve had a few friends over the years—mostly small business owners and doctors, people who tell the government what they earned instead of having to deal with W2s/1099s that are reported by companies and brokerages—who really get me started. They write their lives off as a business expense. Cars, vacations, dinners out, etc. and have their accountants tell them the minimum acceptable income to take to keep them under the radar. And then they bitch about high taxes!

Gotta love it.