Author Topic: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?  (Read 8306 times)

swampwiz

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Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« on: May 30, 2018, 06:44:30 PM »
I was reading this article about how folks want to get Americans to buy pleasure boats:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-30/polaris-makes-an-805-million-bet-that-you-ll-buy-a-boat

Now, I have no problem with a small boat that folks use to fish or water ski (something I wish I had done less of as a lad, with my current back problems), but at some point, a fancy boat becomes an expense that can do some serious damage to saving for one's retirement.  And unless someone is a serious fisherman (like every week), the cost per hour of use can get to a super high level that no sane person of normal means could conclude is wise.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 06:46:32 PM by swampwiz »

ixtap

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2018, 07:12:06 PM »
Boat costs are very similar to RV costs. And, like RVs, it really depends on how one uses it. For some people, it is an alternative to vacations and therefore fits within their existing budget. For others, it is an alternative to other weekend entertainment that might add up to similar amounts. For still others, they never see it and not only are they wasting money, but the boat is rotting.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2018, 09:24:22 PM »
Boat costs are very similar to RV costs. And, like RVs, it really depends on how one uses it. For some people, it is an alternative to vacations and therefore fits within their existing budget. For others, it is an alternative to other weekend entertainment that might add up to similar amounts. For still others, they never see it and not only are they wasting money, but the boat is rotting.

I have a friend whose father is a physician and owns a large boat.  I honestly can't remember how large it is, but last I heard, he was still working in his late 60s overtime to pay for it and his other expenses.  How is that for un-mustachian?  I guess at least his family is enjoying it while he is at work.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2018, 09:34:18 PM »
In answer to the title, yes.

undercover

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2018, 09:51:18 PM »
It can be. It usually is.

If you buy an SUV with the justification that you'll one day haul stuff up to/including a boat, then most certainly.

Most people are buying way more boat than they need mostly because they want to impress and subsidize their friend's boating adventures as well. In that sense not only is it clownish, it's foolish. The best thing to do is become friends who derive their self worth from how other people view them and then you can let them subsidize your boating adventures.

A smart/frugal persons extent of water recreation activities would be kayaking/canoeing and fishing. A boat the size of all anyone would need with a motor the size of all anyone would need (to fish) can probably be had for under $1k.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2018, 11:56:34 PM »
I've never owned a boat, but my understanding is that boat stands for 'break out another thousand'. I know a few people with boats who spend a lot of time in and around their boats. They seem to be time and money consuming things. A bit like classic cars. Even little metal dinghies that people fish from in a harbour seem to have endless issues with engines.

Imma

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2018, 03:19:34 AM »
I know someone who FIRE'd, bought a boat and is now using it 6 months a year, travelling all over the continent. I'm sure it's a very expensive hobby, but it was his big retirement dream and I'm sure he thinks it's worth it. Buying a boat for this purpose could possibly fit in with mustachian values - of course there's still a big difference between buying a fairly simple boat with basic accomodation and a luxury 40 meter yacht.

For most people I don't think buying a boat makes sense at all and of course it's extremely expensive. Half of boat owners seem to be using it mainly for hosting parties in the marina.

PhilB

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2018, 04:37:18 AM »
Whenever I'm out kayaking and pass someone motoring along in their gin palace I always think to myself  'I'm burning calories whilst you're burning money - and that's just two of the reasons I can afford to have a better dinner than you.'

BTDretire

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2018, 06:27:01 AM »
  I think the less than 40ft boat I saw with (4) Four Mercury outboard motors across the back
qualifies as clownish. I looked up the middle HP motor, $14,800 each.
 The big motor is over $20,000 each.
  We all know it's hard to impress your friends with only 3 motors.
YOLO, so get another motor!
 

Bird In Hand

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2018, 06:48:55 AM »
Whenever I'm out kayaking and pass someone motoring along in their gin palace I always think to myself  'I'm burning calories whilst you're burning money - and that's just two of the reasons I can afford to have a better dinner than you.'

That must be exhausting.

elliha

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2018, 07:10:40 AM »
We own a roughly 30 year old boat and a 4-5 year old very simple outboard motor which we use to access my MIL's cabin on a small island. It gets us from point A to point B and we can use it for a boat ride around the scenic lake and for fishing. Do we absolutely need it? Not really, we could probably share a boat with one of the neighbors and you don't actually have to have a cabin but if you are going to have a boat it is hard to go that much cheaper than this one. Getting a big fast "fun boat"? Yes, that is completely unnecessary for everyone.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 07:22:27 AM by elliha »

boarder42

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2018, 07:17:43 AM »
yep boats are clownish in almost every way i'd even call my boat clownish but its how we choose to enjoy our time - we live on a lake and get out 3-4 times a week from end of march thur beginning of november.  its an old 1999 wakeboard/surf boat that i've basically made about as good as the new 120k wake boats hitting the market today thru DIY upgrades.  had it not been for a blown engine 2 years ago i'd still be plus money in it.  right now i'm probably sitting at break even if i sold today including what i've got in it.  5 years of a boat thats still worth what you have invested in it isnt too high a cost. minus the opportunity cost of the 20-25k that could be invested earning me 7-10%.  and the added cost of our slip lease at 350 a year.  but all in all its pretty affordable.

dogboyslim

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2018, 07:36:51 AM »
I have a 22ft. sailboat.  Operating expenses per hour are miniscule because I burn about 1.5 gallons of gas per summer.  Where I get it is slip fees so I don't have to raise/lower the mast every time out.  I figure its costing me about $200 a month between fixes, storage, slip fees etc.  Is it clownish?  Sure, but I enjoy it, and it is a way to get the kids to participate in something that isn't found in an ipad.  As to some other fun terms: 
B.O.A.T = Break Out Another Thousand (mentioned),
Boating Units = $1,000, but sounds better to the wife.  "I need to upgrade this, and its going to be 1.5 boating units." 
Boat: A hole in the water into which you pour money

All in all, its worth it to me to push off my FIRE date until I can save the additional $100k to support my boat habit.

simonsez

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2018, 07:56:08 AM »
pre-FIRE=yes
post-FIRE=no, provided the boat doesn't make you unexpectedly have to go back to work

boarder42

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2018, 08:39:37 AM »
pre-FIRE=yes
post-FIRE=no, provided the boat doesn't make you unexpectedly have to go back to work

 i disagree with the preFIRE postFIRE sentiment.  if that were true everything other than ERE spending would be clownish prior to FIRE.  if you do anything other than the bare minimum to stay alive its clownish by this logic. 

all options can be weighted and determined what value it provides and the additional time needed to work this is true both pre and post FIRE - plan to own a boat post FIRE will require longer working whether you owned it before or not as its an additional cost to current spending.  but are still clownish luxuries whether its pre or post FIRE.

des999

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2018, 08:49:39 AM »
boats can be expensive, but it's like a car, you can make it work for you.

I currently have an older pontoon boat that I paid $2500 7 years ago.  I have been using it every summer since, I live in a lake community, where they store it for me in the winter for $75/year.  I don't have to own a truck or a trailer, so for me, it was an easy decision.

I can't haul it places or to other lakes, but I'm ok with that.  We get a ton of family fun/time out of it, which is why we wanted it.  I have had some costs over the years, probably have put another couple thousand in it since 2011.  Over all, boats are like cars, require maintenance, etc..

Where I see a lot of folks spend crazy amounts is when they buy newer, expensive, and have to have a trailer, and a big truck. 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 08:59:39 AM by des999 »

PhilB

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2018, 08:57:16 AM »
pre-FIRE=yes
post-FIRE=no, provided the boat doesn't make you unexpectedly have to go back to work

 i disagree with the preFIRE postFIRE sentiment.  if that were true everything other than ERE spending would be clownish prior to FIRE.  if you do anything other than the bare minimum to stay alive its clownish by this logic. 

all options can be weighted and determined what value it provides and the additional time needed to work this is true both pre and post FIRE - plan to own a boat post FIRE will require longer working whether you owned it before or not as its an additional cost to current spending.  but are still clownish luxuries whether its pre or post FIRE.
I'm guessing he meant that it's not worth it pre FIRE as many (most?) people don't have time pre FIRE to really get their money's worth out of it.  The cost per hour of fun drops dramatically when you don't have to keep going to work instead.

acroy

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2018, 09:07:00 AM »
I have a 22ft. sailboat.  Operating expenses per hour are miniscule because I burn about 1.5 gallons of gas per summer.  Where I get it is slip fees so I don't have to raise/lower the mast every time out.  I figure its costing me about $200 a month between fixes, storage, slip fees etc.  Is it clownish?  Sure, but I enjoy it, and it is a way to get the kids to participate in something that isn't found in an ipad.  As to some other fun terms: 
B.O.A.T = Break Out Another Thousand (mentioned),
Boating Units = $1,000, but sounds better to the wife.  "I need to upgrade this, and its going to be 1.5 boating units." 
Boat: A hole in the water into which you pour money

All in all, its worth it to me to push off my FIRE date until I can save the additional $100k to support my boat habit.
^^ good stuff, thanks for above. There's always 'mustachian' ways to approach an activity/hobby.

Adam Zapple

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2018, 09:08:47 AM »
i absolutely love being out on the water in a boat.  But as they say, the only thing better than owning a boat is having a close friend or family member who owns a boat.  I have both of these and have not chosen to purchase my own boat for this reason.  I will borrow one or tag along a couple times per summer and just throw the person some money.

To me, boat ownership seems like way more trouble than it is worth, at least at this point in my life where I don't have a ton of free time.  Getting it ready for the season, keeping it clean, prepping it for storms, repairs, bottom painting/scraping, winterizing, storing the boat and trailer, registration, collecting food and drinks for the trip along with all the kids crap...the workload outweighs the enjoyment.

My father owns a boat and uses it infrequently.  He calculated the cost one time and he figures it costs him about $300 per trip to own plus all the time that goes into maintenance and care. 

OtherJen

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2018, 09:10:35 AM »
I have a 22ft. sailboat.  Operating expenses per hour are miniscule because I burn about 1.5 gallons of gas per summer.  Where I get it is slip fees so I don't have to raise/lower the mast every time out.  I figure its costing me about $200 a month between fixes, storage, slip fees etc.  Is it clownish?  Sure, but I enjoy it, and it is a way to get the kids to participate in something that isn't found in an ipad. 

A few years ago, we were state park camping near Traverse City and went into town for lunch, where we met a retired couple (FIREd, I assume, as they looked to be in their 50s) who spent basically the entire non-frozen water season living on their sailboat and sailing around the Great Lakes. They had to pay dock fees and buy food, but they slept on the boat and never paid for lodging while having a ton of fun exploring the region and competing in the big sailing races. What they described seemed like the water version of RVing in a camper all summer, which I would LOVE to do.

TL;DR: A sailboat doesn't seem clownish if it's something that you genuinely love, use often, and can afford easily (i.e., doesn't hurt your future prospects).

alanB

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2018, 09:15:34 AM »
A fancy boat is a great choice.  Just think about how frustrating it would be to shred your paper money one bill at a time.  Don't you just crave the simple convenience of torching it all at once in a big bonfire?

Chris22

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2018, 10:34:57 AM »
New boats generally depreciate dramatically.  Used boats often depreciate very little.  Family member bought an 18' runabout to keep at his cabin.  Probably paid about $8k in 2000 or so (early 1990s boat).  Last year he sold it for roughly $5k.  His storage was free, most maintenance was DIY, insurance and taxes is some modest amount.  I have to think he rarely bought gas, because usually the various guests he had would pop for 5-10 gallons here and there (bring jugs to the gas station for fueling).  And we had all the same fun on it that the guy with the new $80k wakeboard boat was having.  So there are of course degrees.


boarder42

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2018, 10:39:28 AM »
New boats generally depreciate dramatically.  Used boats often depreciate very little.  Family member bought an 18' runabout to keep at his cabin.  Probably paid about $8k in 2000 or so (early 1990s boat).  Last year he sold it for roughly $5k.  His storage was free, most maintenance was DIY, insurance and taxes is some modest amount.  I have to think he rarely bought gas, because usually the various guests he had would pop for 5-10 gallons here and there (bring jugs to the gas station for fueling).  And we had all the same fun on it that the guy with the new $80k wakeboard boat was having. So there are of course degrees.

not really possible today with surfing - its illegal most places to surf behind a runabout due to the safety of hitting the prop on one of those boats.  but you can find used Vdrive inboards for around 14-15k in the off season that would be able to get you to the same fun level - its what i've got.

dcheesi

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2018, 10:45:16 AM »
The two happiest days in a boat-owner's life:

1) The day they buy the boat
2) The day they sell it

A friend of mine spent a year overhauling his small sailboat (DIY, with occasional help from me). By the time it was finished, he was so sick of that boat that he never sailed it again; it just sat there rotting and eating up dock fees. He finally sold it to one of his daughter's boyfriends --the one good thing to come out of that relationship!

Chris22

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2018, 10:56:16 AM »
New boats generally depreciate dramatically.  Used boats often depreciate very little.  Family member bought an 18' runabout to keep at his cabin.  Probably paid about $8k in 2000 or so (early 1990s boat).  Last year he sold it for roughly $5k.  His storage was free, most maintenance was DIY, insurance and taxes is some modest amount.  I have to think he rarely bought gas, because usually the various guests he had would pop for 5-10 gallons here and there (bring jugs to the gas station for fueling).  And we had all the same fun on it that the guy with the new $80k wakeboard boat was having. So there are of course degrees.


not really possible today with surfing - its illegal most places to surf behind a runabout due to the safety of hitting the prop on one of those boats.  but you can find used Vdrive inboards for around 14-15k in the off season that would be able to get you to the same fun level - its what i've got.

No idea.  We waterski behind ours occasionally, and go tubing.  Which is the exact same usage the people a couple cabins up do with their new Mastercraft.

ice_beard

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2018, 10:59:37 AM »
A fancy boat, most likely and many people here would say any boat is foolish.

I was invited out fishing in the Bay this past weekend.  We were on a boat made for fishing only.  It has an enclosed cabin and is the right size for SF Bay.  We caught many fish and I had one of the best days of fishing of my life.  I threw down about $60 total for gas and bait plus a packed lunch which is definitely the way to go for a day like this.  It was essentially a chartered day with gear and knowledge for finding fish provided by the boat owner.   I'd be lying if I said I wasn't doing boat cost calculations in my head as we left the marina that evening.

I know during the last recession a significant number of boat manufacturers went out of business.  Many smaller brands were absorbed by the bigger players.  How this has shaken out since then, I don't really know as I'm no boat aficionado.  I also remember in the last recession people "selling" their boats for essentially taking over the slip fees.  This might be something I'm interested in for the future.  It would be nice to have a sailboat I could cruise around on and even do some fishing from.

Edited to add a little quip I was told about sailboat ownership.....

I had asked about living on a sailboat and was told that I'd be better off taking a cold shower while ripping up $100 bills because the effect is essentially the same.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 11:01:35 AM by ice_beard »

bluebelle

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2018, 11:02:42 AM »
based on your subject line, I think you answered your own question.
One person's clown is another person's "value".  (assumption being that you've done the value prop and can afford it)

I don't "get" big fancy boats, but I don't want to travel the great lakes on one, I don't want a boat powerful enough that someone else could waterski behind it (ie I don't want to and I have no interest in paying for it so someone else can)....we're retiring to lakefront property in 2 years, the plan is to buy a used boat that will let me putter around the lake and have 2-4 people fish off it without becoming entangled - we can do that on a realively cheap boat....and it will get used multiple times a week. 

dougules

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2018, 11:08:55 AM »
A boat is definitely a luxury unless

You need to cross water frequently for general transportation or hauling items
And a ferry doesn't work
And you don't buy more boat than you really need

So most boats are luxuries.  Luxuries aren't necessarily a bad thing, but you have to make sure it really is worth what you have to do to earn the money in terms of your happiness.  This is doubly true with a boat since they are one of those things that always cost more than you think they will. 

Fishindude

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2018, 12:28:58 PM »
Unless you make your living with it, boats are "toys" just like motorcycles, ATV's, campers, etc.   So long as you can afford to pay cash for it and can handle the expenses of use, maintenance and storage without getting yourself in financial trouble, this hobby is no worse than any other.   Unfortunately, a very large percentage of boats sold are impulse purchases and are bought on credit.  They routinely finance them for 10 years or more.

I've had lots of boats.  Presently own four boats, two kayaks and a canoe.   I'll be the first one to admit that you throw away a lot of money with boats, but I enjoy spending time on the water and we don't borrow money to do it.

Zikoris

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2018, 12:44:47 PM »
I mean, you could probably come up with circumstances where it wouldn't be clownish. For example, last weekend my partner and I were visiting an area that has a lot of small islands. We were speculating on the idea of buying some cheap land and barging over a tiny house. If you did that, you'd probably want some sort of vessel for, you know, grocery shopping or going to the doctor or whatever. You could maybe swing a kayak, or one of those balls you run in, though it would be downright miserable in the winter.

Though I would get some serious Mustache cred for homesteading on an island and zorbing across the ocean for groceries.

Still cheaper than living in Vancouver.

Abe Froman

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2018, 02:25:47 PM »
I agree and disagree.

I owned 2 sailboats in my life (so far).

The first was in San Francisco - when I took advantage of an opportunity on CraigsList when a liveaboard in Sausalito wanted to sell his . It was an old boat - and upon receipt poured about $1500 in. Even though I was 25-ish at the time - and spent ~$6K for a 19 year old boat - it provided me stories I keep telling for a lifetime (dating opps, picnicing on Angel Island, in/out GG bridge, Jack London square, docking at Sam's in Marin, etc, etc). And yes - the 2nd best time on that boat was when I sold it - but the memories are priceless.

The second was in the great Windy City - where I found (and I am not telling where) a mom and pop marina where they had a (unusable) slip - really only for skiffs - since it had a mean low tide of 12 inches deep. I luckily had a boat ( a 27 foot sailboat -->MacGregor that floats in 6 inches of water - via a swing keel) and spent only $35/month on slip with electric.

In the first case I spent money for the experience. I had youth on my side and a little extra scratch to spend. I figured I could make it up later - which I did. The question remains of what would that net ~8K spent be worth today. OK - lets say possibly $24/$25K. Were those stories worth that? You know - I do think so.

In the second case, I was LUCKY on 2 points. First I was able to sell the boat for near what I paid for it. (Value went a little up - YAY). Second point - I SCORED on a really cheap slip fee.

Overall - if one is really into it - and creative - you can figure a smart approach. BUT - you miuist really be into sailing. And my interest was 1000% in some years and others.....not.

So today - I joined a local marina where there is a separate Sailing Club as part of it. For $60/year - I get to sail on a 36 foot boat every Thursday for barrel races, plus additional racing competitions, plus free pulls from the Keg!

To enjoy sailing - you don't always have to HAVE the boat itself.

wbranch

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2018, 04:04:50 PM »
I have been watching craigslist for canoes, it looks like we should be able to get one for under <$500. I do worry that we won't use it enough so I keep putting it off.

ol1970

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2018, 04:14:46 PM »
If you can’t afford it, yes it’s clownish...if you can afford it and actually use it there is honestly no better way I’ve found to spend my dollars.  I measure in dollars per smile, and hands down the boating life gives me a great ROI.  I often wonder what other people are doing on those beautiful 85 degrees and sunny days while we are surfing and swimming and playing games on the sandbar.  Yep a walk in the park is free, a mountain bike ride is free (minus the bike)...but I do those too often all in the same day. 

I do agree boats deprecate like rocks and suck money, but if it’s all within your safe withdraw rate (mine is at about 1.5% currently) then why the hell not?  I guarantee you from two decades of living on the water, it’s a great life!

Slow2FIRE

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2018, 04:42:15 PM »
Seems to me that Mr. Money Mustache would call most powerboats clownish (thinking on his blog posts wrt using a push type reel mower vs a power mower and then comparing a kayak, rowboat, etc to a power boat).

My personal opinion -> if you can rent the same cheaper based on how often you use the boat, maintenance, fees, insurance, etc; then it is clownish to own rather than rent.  Kind of how I view trucks or large vans (they have their purpose, but most of us only need them for that purpose a few days a year and are better off renting it rather than owning it).

Maybe that you even have to ask and it isn't readily apparent means that it probably is "clownish spending".

DreamFIRE

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2018, 05:20:36 PM »
I saw a few comments stating that if it's affordable, then that's ok.   No, it's still a clown boat.  Isn't this the MMM forum?

GetItRight

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2018, 06:20:47 PM »
The overpriced useless junk in the article? Yes, absolutely "clownish" spending. For a fraction of the cost you can get a used boat that suits how you like to spend time on the water. I have an old inboard ski boat with a big block and a tower, that plus my truck and motorcycle cost less than most people seem to spend on a car every few years. I've had all for over 10 years and no plans to sell any of the toys. Operating costs are negligible. A few hundred a year for insurance and registration, fuel is often free as everyone chips in for gas to do watersports which usually covers most or all the fuel for the day.

Being on the water is my vacation, every weekend or any weekday after work. No need to have "clownish" spending on airfare, hotels, and other travel that seems so popular here when there's so much fun to be had being active on the water for nearly free close to home. Like most things, there are cheap and frugal ways to own a boat or do watersports, and there are expensive ways. Some of the guys I ride with don't own boats and just throw down gas money, others have modest older inboards, others have new $100k+ boats. I have just as much fun behind my 30 year old classic inboard as behind a brand new six figure boat.

Abe

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2018, 09:37:02 PM »
Don't buy your own boat. Boat shares and boating clubs with fleets are much better deals hands-down. You don't have to do much maintenance and have low costs since the these are shared across many people. I sail for a weekend day every month for much less than it would cost to buy an equivalent boat (42 Beneteau for those who are interested). I once calculated the costs and would have to sail essentially full time for the cost to be equivalent, plus I'd still have to maintain the boat on my own instead of having experts do so.

Owning a boat is for people who pay $50 for yogurt: they have so much money that it's irrelevant what anything costs.

Bee21

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2018, 02:35:06 AM »
Depends. We have a cruiser (it is like a floating caravan) and it's great. It cost us around 3.5 last year (plus the dickmobile to tow it) so it is not exactly cheap but it is one of my husbands non negotiables. He claims that the only reason he does not have a midlife crisis is the boat. It is a family thing, we all enjoy it, a big part of our social life (we made a lot of friends via boating) and a great way to explore the world around us. We can stay up to 4 days on it without getting back to civilization, so we spend every long weekend on it, plus most of the school holidays, weekends..... having my morning coffee surrounded by dolphins is priceless. My kids could snorkel before they were 2 and were patting turtles.  Next year we are taking her to the whitsundays. We live in a beautiful part of the world and it is the best way to enjoy it. We are planning to get a sailing boat once we retire and sail around Australia😊

But I wouldn't recommend having one if you are not handy, it will cost a mint if you can't fix it yourself. I can tell you horror stories of repairs, where our friends were charged thousands (the part would be less than 100 and it can be fixed in less than an hour).Bastards. Luckily my husband is able to do most of the work himself. We spoke to a riviera owner the other week, who spent almost  200k last year on maintenance and fuel last year. True story. I almost fainted. it was a gorgeous vessel, but hell no, I have 0 Riviera envy. they say it costs about 10% of the value of the boat to run it every year (unless it is that riviera, in which case it is 20%).

boarder42

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2018, 05:46:02 AM »
I saw a few comments stating that if it's affordable, then that's ok.   No, it's still a clown boat.  Isn't this the MMM forum?

there are circumstances that make owning a boat ok and even better than what MMM does

1. sailboat you live on while traveling around the world having sold all other worldly possessions
2. rental fleet of boats
3. kayaks and other small non powered craft
4. you own and operate a sightseeing business that primarily uses sail boats for viewing sites. 

those are just a few i can think of. 

now if you choose to boat as a hobby as i do and as some other posters have said above there are some very economical ways to do it.  but its still a clown boat hobby.  and you should evaluate its impact on your life and time to FIRE for us it was 2-3 weeks worth of extra work over our careers b/c of the incomes we will have at the end to own a boat for the 15 years we're working on our way to FIRE.  pretty sure i can handle 2-3 weeks of work for the endless hours of surfing and wakeboarding i do every summer.

BTDretire

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2018, 07:56:48 AM »
Speaking of clowns,
 If you are ever attacked by a mob of clowns,

go for the juggler.

Jrr85

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2018, 08:05:46 AM »
It can be. It usually is.

If you buy an SUV with the justification that you'll one day haul stuff up to/including a boat, then most certainly.

Most people are buying way more boat than they need mostly because they want to impress and subsidize their friend's boating adventures as well. In that sense not only is it clownish, it's foolish. The best thing to do is become friends who derive their self worth from how other people view them and then you can let them subsidize your boating adventures.

A smart/frugal persons extent of water recreation activities would be kayaking/canoeing and fishing. A boat the size of all anyone would need with a motor the size of all anyone would need (to fish) can probably be had for under $1k.

This is just incorrect.  Granted, having any recreational boat is a luxury, but the vast majority of boating activities cannot be done in a boat that cost under $1k.  Even if you are just limiting it to fishing, outside of fishing in small ponds, $1k isn't going to get you a boat and motor that will transport even two people across open water for any amount of distance. 

cowpuncher10

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2018, 08:10:01 AM »
Normally I would agree because most boats sit unused for the vast majority of the year even during boating season.

That being said, I bought a boat this year. Why? Because I have a free place to store it in the water less than 20 minutes from the house with 3 young kids.

For me this is NOT a clownish investment. For others it most certainly is.


Jrr85

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2018, 08:12:36 AM »
Unless you make your living with it, boats are "toys" just like motorcycles, ATV's, campers, etc.   So long as you can afford to pay cash for it and can handle the expenses of use, maintenance and storage without getting yourself in financial trouble, this hobby is no worse than any other.   Unfortunately, a very large percentage of boats sold are impulse purchases and are bought on credit.  They routinely finance them for 10 years or more.

I've had lots of boats.  Presently own four boats, two kayaks and a canoe.   I'll be the first one to admit that you throw away a lot of money with boats, but I enjoy spending time on the water and we don't borrow money to do it.

Try 15 years now for a boat of any size.  Apparently, boat manufacturers have figured out that a $400-600 per month payment is the sweet spot that many, many people find affordable (I guess because it seems like a car payment?).  Of course with that payment plan you are underwater for the next 13 to 14 years.  Really makes it tough to find a reasonable used boat.  Have to find a boat that was bought with cash (or financed over a sane period with a reasonable down payment) or you have to find a boat that has been repo'd, and many of those boats have significant deferred maintenance issues from the original buyers being unable financially to do routine maintenance. 

I get why people get suckered in at the thought of having an incredibly nice boat for $400-$600 a month (which is really a good bit more than that when you take into account maintenance, storage, ins., etc., even without considering depreciation).  But it still surprises me that more of them aren't dissuaded by the thought of paying $400-600 a month for a 12-15 year old boat. 

simonsez

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2018, 08:38:21 AM »
pre-FIRE=yes
post-FIRE=no, provided the boat doesn't make you unexpectedly have to go back to work

 i disagree with the preFIRE postFIRE sentiment.  if that were true everything other than ERE spending would be clownish prior to FIRE.  if you do anything other than the bare minimum to stay alive its clownish by this logic. 

all options can be weighted and determined what value it provides and the additional time needed to work this is true both pre and post FIRE - plan to own a boat post FIRE will require longer working whether you owned it before or not as its an additional cost to current spending.  but are still clownish luxuries whether its pre or post FIRE.
To each their own.

Aside from being the main residence, I'd consider a boat a luxury.  Thus, not necessary, thus, delaying FIRE.  I have a ton of things in my life that provide plenty of value and are delaying my own retirement.  I've come to grips with perhaps too many luxuries.  Call them unnecessary, clownish, luxuries, wants, a well thought out expense where the positives outweigh the negatives, whatever.

I'm not advocating living like a hermit just to be FIRE ASAP (though nothing wrong with those that want to go that route), just calling a spade a spade.  If you want to define things differently to make your version of living make more sense to you, I encourage that.  Find the model that works best for you.  I personally like having constant reminders how good life is by noting how many things exist simply to make my life easier/more comfortable and I would still survive without them.  Yeah, I call everything above ERE a luxury.  I used the word clownish just to go with the spirit of the post.

Yes, of course planned FIRE spending on something not necessary for survival would delay retirement.  But hey, if that is someone's plan and they are FI and want to cruise around on their boat, good for them.  They're living out their plans.  They DGAF how others judge their expenses, they're FI!!!

Now, if you'll excuse me I have to go put on my big red shoes and wig and colorful suspenders.  I am purchasing guide wire to string lights across my back patio.

wbranch

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2018, 09:14:44 AM »
Unless you make your living with it, boats are "toys" just like motorcycles, ATV's, campers, etc.   So long as you can afford to pay cash for it and can handle the expenses of use, maintenance and storage without getting yourself in financial trouble, this hobby is no worse than any other.   Unfortunately, a very large percentage of boats sold are impulse purchases and are bought on credit.  They routinely finance them for 10 years or more.

I've had lots of boats.  Presently own four boats, two kayaks and a canoe.   I'll be the first one to admit that you throw away a lot of money with boats, but I enjoy spending time on the water and we don't borrow money to do it.

Try 15 years now for a boat of any size.  Apparently, boat manufacturers have figured out that a $400-600 per month payment is the sweet spot that many, many people find affordable (I guess because it seems like a car payment?).  Of course with that payment plan you are underwater for the next 13 to 14 years.  Really makes it tough to find a reasonable used boat.  Have to find a boat that was bought with cash (or financed over a sane period with a reasonable down payment) or you have to find a boat that has been repo'd, and many of those boats have significant deferred maintenance issues from the original buyers being unable financially to do routine maintenance. 

I get why people get suckered in at the thought of having an incredibly nice boat for $400-$600 a month (which is really a good bit more than that when you take into account maintenance, storage, ins., etc., even without considering depreciation).  But it still surprises me that more of them aren't dissuaded by the thought of paying $400-600 a month for a 12-15 year old boat.

I was at a dealership a few years ago and their promotional signs listed payments based on 240 months. Craziness.

dogboyslim

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2018, 09:50:53 AM »
If the boat has a head and a galley, it can qualify for a mortgage on a second home.  Many of those mega cruising yachts are financed like homes, and the interest payments are deductible.  Now that SALT is limited, I wouldn't be surprised to see yacht manufacturers advertising more heavily on this point so people can "help their tax burden" by buying a massive boat

GuitarStv

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2018, 10:06:30 AM »
Is it clownish if the boat has built in power outlets to run my Vitamix blender, or would that be more mustachian because my constant need to blend things would otherwise require a generator too?

:P

dougules

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2018, 11:12:22 AM »
Is it clownish if the boat has built in power outlets to run my Vitamix blender, or would that be more mustachian because my constant need to blend things would otherwise require a generator too?

:P

Probably because you'd need quite a big boat so that the powerful Vitamix blender motor won't spin the whole boat counter to the blade.  Action, reaction, you know. 

ixtap

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2018, 11:54:58 AM »
Is it clownish if the boat has built in power outlets to run my Vitamix blender, or would that be more mustachian because my constant need to blend things would otherwise require a generator too?

:P

At anchor, running the Vitamix off an inverter with the batteries kept topped off with solar or at a dock with shore power?

If at anchor do you row to shore to get the veggies? If at a dock are you squatting, renting or own the mansion behind the dock?

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2018, 01:42:34 PM »
My dad bought himself a 14 foot aluminum flatbottom with trailer and 9.5hp motor in the early 1970s. We used it for fishing, snorkeling, scuba, and even water skiing/tubing when we were lightweight little kids! He replaced the original 9.5hp outboard with a used 15hp outboard maybe 15 years ago at a cost of $1,500, although that wasn't strictly necessary.

The boat has sat uncovered in the sun and rain for 45 years, but aluminum doesn't deteriorate so it's fine. The trailer has required new tires ($50 each) a few times due to dry rot and teething labrador retrievers. Miscellaneous maintenance over the decades includes trailer lights, new wood where the motor clamps on, and the occassional water pump ($15). He keeps it in the back yard, pays no insurance, and would drive a truck even if he didn't have a boat - so no extra cost there. Actually, I bet my Corolla would tow it just fine - the whole rig weighs less than 1,000lbs wet and loaded.

It's worth between $1k and $1.5k as it sits. Do I wish he had bought and held Phillip Morris stock instead? Not even sure. The adventures were better than Disney (never went, no regrets).

I'll submit his case as a potentially Mustachian boat. I estimate the cost is $100/year, which is what many of us pay for the far lessor entertainment experience of Netflix.

This boat also taught me to deal with shame. Cruising the lake in a hand-painted sardine can (that sometimes broke down) amid the yachts and sparkling ski boats was formative. Some of the best experiences of my and my friends' childhoods could never have occurred had my dad given a shit about the Joneses and their cabin cruiser.