Author Topic: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?  (Read 6495 times)

Fishindude

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2018, 09:41:07 AM »
Most serious boat people like to set up a boat to their particular needs.   Rentals are generally pretty stripped down basic boats, so they won't meet the needs of a lot of boaters, particularly the fishermen that want special electronics, trolling motors, navigation, anchorage, etc.

daschtick

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2018, 04:07:14 PM »
Boats are certainly clownish, although I will admit to having enjoyed the hobby for 17 years prior to finally selling my last boat in 2014.  The real trouble with boats extend far beyond the purchase price of the boat itself.  First, there are the obvious costs, such as depreciation, fuel, maintenance, registration, insurance, launch or marina fees, repairs, inevitable boating upgrades and accessories, etc.

However, what most people neglect to add in are the indirect costs of boat ownership, which include:
  • A 15 mpg clown tow vehicle, and all related costs, such as depreciation, fuel (not just when towing, but all other times this vehicle is driven), maintenance, registration, and insurance.
  • A place to store the boat, both on and off season (garage, storage unit, barn, etc.).
  • Or lastly, the matching lake home home or cottage that initiated the boat purchase in the first place, which is a whole another source of financial drain.
Don't get me wrong - Boating can be a lot of fun, and there is something about it that can make a weekend feel like a vacation.  It also makes for great family time, and can provide many memories.  But this also comes with a cost, usually much more significant than it appears on the surface. 

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2018, 06:52:36 PM »
I think ANY boat is somewhat clownish, it cost money to run and keep (roughly HP/10 = gallons per hour), money for liability insurance, upkeep (easier if you can DIY it), and registration/taxes.

BUT there is a huge spread.

I can pick up a running 14 foot aluminum boat with trailer and 9.9-15HP all day for ~2K. Of course, it would be used somewhat worn, older engine, and not as shiny. That doesn't require a 15 MPG clown-truck. Since I live on a river and the two towns to the north (with the safe dedicated bike path and good entertainment/restaurants) and the 3 towns to the south all have public landings and would take about as long to drive as boat . . . we will probably get a small boat eventually (heck I MIGHT actually be able to get to work via boat and a short walk). And if I we don't use it enough (though I love being on the water, so probably not the case), well it will have aged enough that I can sell it again for about what I would have paid. This kind of boat doesn't tether you to it like having a fancy RV or island/lake house.

On the other end of the spectrum and brand new 225+ HP 22+ foot boats that cost more to run, operate, maintain, insure, and register. They weight more and require a more powerful tow vehicle. Oh, and the depreciation is brutal. And are much more clown like.

And that doesn't even move us into the yacht/houseboat/live aboard class that is even more face punching.

But, to answer, the title question asked. Yes, any boat is unnecessary spending and is face punch worthy; its just a matter of whether it is your 3 year old niece doing the face punch or Amanda Nunes doing the face punch.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2018, 07:16:45 PM »
This thread always makes me smile when it pops up. I sold my soul to have a shot at making this little darling mine all mine. She's certainly fancy, but I'll still call her not-very-clownish at twice the price!


golden1

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2018, 07:57:40 PM »
My parents owned a 40í boat.  No fucking thank you.  Take it out on Saturday for 5 hours, spend 2-3 hours maintaining it. 

tomsang

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2018, 07:27:55 AM »
I saw a few comments stating that if it's affordable, then that's ok.   No, it's still a clown boat.  Isn't this the MMM forum?

I thought the same thing. With that logic I could afford a Maserati and Ferrari to pick up groceries.

BookLoverL

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2018, 11:27:40 AM »
Here are the main circumstances in which I can imagine a boat NOT being clownish:

a) You live on your boat, and therefore pay no other housing costs

b) You are a fisherman or some other profession which makes a living from being out at sea

c) Your boat is so basic and the water is so close to your house that the cost for you of boating as a hobby is much cheaper than usual, AND you actually go out on your boat regularly

d) You are actually using someone else's boat.

ixtap

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2018, 11:50:40 AM »
Here are the main circumstances in which I can imagine a boat NOT being clownish:

a) You live on your boat, and therefore pay no other housing costs

b) You are a fisherman or some other profession which makes a living from being out at sea

c) Your boat is so basic and the water is so close to your house that the cost for you of boating as a hobby is much cheaper than usual, AND you actually go out on your boat regularly

d) You are actually using someone else's boat.

A previous poster seemed to think that liveaboards were the most clownish of all.

I do live aboard. I have neighbors who live in other states who complain about having to be a millionaire to own a 36' boat. Why yes, that is a luxury, how exactly am I supposed to feel sorry for you?!

MishMash

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2018, 06:26:44 AM »
We will be spending 150k on a boat next year.  Yup, it hurts my heart too.  But it's 5% of our net worth, will be paid for with cash that we've been saving just for this purchase and will be the husbands retirement "business" when he gets out of the military in 3-5 years.  He needs to spend about 2 years getting the hours in to get his six pack license.  Then he will run donated charters to various military charities.  And hopefully paid charters. 

But if he doesn't  earn money doing it, nbd, we are set with a six figure passive income per year between pension and investments.  We are planning on buying a canal front home with cash next year too (moving to a cheaper col area, selling our place here will free up enough to pay for a place in FL).  If we can't find a canal front home, then there is a marina that for 350 a month does in out storage, you call, they drop it in the water, you come back they pull it out and do all the cleaning.

We spend A LOT of time on the water.  Our current boat was a 2k craigslist purchase that we have hodgepodge together and learned on. Fishing, and being on the water is really the only thing that seems to help with his ptsd so to me, it's worth it.  Totally a want and not a need, but to give him peace after 20 years of deployments (he's deployed 10 times so far some short, some long) it's worth it to me.

ol1970

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2018, 07:16:15 AM »
I saw a few comments stating that if it's affordable, then that's ok.   No, it's still a clown boat.  Isn't this the MMM forum?

I thought the same thing. With that logic I could afford a Maserati and Ferrari to pick up groceries.

Good point...but here is the thing that kills me about people here...it is all about if it fits YOUR personal agenda.  Where is the outrage over a Tesla Model 3 being a freaking Clown Car?  You can buy a couple year old perfectly good used economy dino-juice burning vehicle for $10K that gets 40+MPG.  Even if you get the base model 3 for $35k (which they are not making now, the average price is closer to $60k), the payback period is 10 years longer than the Tesla will even be on the road.

I think when it comes to boats, you either get it or you don't.  Probably a lot like people who cannot grasp riding their bike to work on public roads risking life and limb to save $1,500 a year (I have an acquaintance who died at 32 married with 2 kids under 3 doing exactly this).  With boats, because they are a luxury, there is jealousy.  Most of the jealousy comes across as because I cannot afford it I will knock it down and call the people who enjoy such activity clownish...even when Pete and many other FIRE bloggers has stated one of the best ways to live frugally and see the world would be on sailboat. 

Personally I'm glad more people are not successful enough to have the luxury of owning a boat.  I love being able to sail up to a secluded anchorage in the Bahamas and grill a fresh caught tuna while watching a perfect sunset without the riff raff crowding things up.  Enjoy the public library reading stories about people who actually do shit, enjoy that free bike ride, enjoy never experiencing the amazement that is mother nature and the ocean when you actually get off the grid or take a flight anywhere because you feel the need to FIRE on a $40k year budget. 

sorry for the rant...but this subject cracks me up with the irony

GuitarStv

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2018, 10:05:42 AM »
I saw a few comments stating that if it's affordable, then that's ok.   No, it's still a clown boat.  Isn't this the MMM forum?

I thought the same thing. With that logic I could afford a Maserati and Ferrari to pick up groceries.

Good point...but here is the thing that kills me about people here...it is all about if it fits YOUR personal agenda.  Where is the outrage over a Tesla Model 3 being a freaking Clown Car?  You can buy a couple year old perfectly good used economy dino-juice burning vehicle for $10K that gets 40+MPG.  Even if you get the base model 3 for $35k (which they are not making now, the average price is closer to $60k), the payback period is 10 years longer than the Tesla will even be on the road.

I think when it comes to boats, you either get it or you don't.  Probably a lot like people who cannot grasp riding their bike to work on public roads risking life and limb to save $1,500 a year (I have an acquaintance who died at 32 married with 2 kids under 3 doing exactly this).  With boats, because they are a luxury, there is jealousy.  Most of the jealousy comes across as because I cannot afford it I will knock it down and call the people who enjoy such activity clownish...even when Pete and many other FIRE bloggers has stated one of the best ways to live frugally and see the world would be on sailboat. 

Personally I'm glad more people are not successful enough to have the luxury of owning a boat.  I love being able to sail up to a secluded anchorage in the Bahamas and grill a fresh caught tuna while watching a perfect sunset without the riff raff crowding things up.  Enjoy the public library reading stories about people who actually do shit, enjoy that free bike ride, enjoy never experiencing the amazement that is mother nature and the ocean when you actually get off the grid or take a flight anywhere because you feel the need to FIRE on a $40k year budget. 

sorry for the rant...but this subject cracks me up with the irony

Blowing money on a Tesla 3 is just as stupid.  I could certainly afford one . . . so my comments about it aren't driven by jealousy.  Sure, it's possible to own a boat and be frugal about it . . . many in this thread have posted comments on how to do so.  You don't need to follow what they say.  If you want to spend your money on hookers and blow or the nautical equivalent, knock yourself out.  If you're looking for cheerleading while you do so though, I'm kinda glad that you're not finding it here.

(I'm one of those people who likes "riding their bike to work on public roads risking life and limb".  In fact, I've been killed six times in the seven years I've been doing so.  Worth it.  I also enjoy the public library and 'experiencing the amazement that is mother nature' on weekend rides when I'm completely "off the grid".  :P  )

edgema

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2018, 10:09:57 AM »
We will be buying a sailboat and plan to spend the next two years sailing with our kids post FIRE next March.

Although this has been a dream/plan for the past 10 years we have not owned a boat in the meantime for many of the reasons outlined. Once you roll in all the costs of a boat that you only end up using a few weekends a year (UK weather not helping in that regard), then it is certainly not economically sensible versus just renting on those weekends.

However, I believe living aboard / voyaging is quite different. On a boat you can experience things and see places that it is impossible to do any other way. We crewed for a year over 10 years ago and it remains the most vivid year of my life so far, and packed with fabulous memories so I cannot wait to do it again. 

We all have our biases and, if we were talking about a cars, my view is that they all just go from A to B and spending $100k on something which can be done for under $10k just seems mad. I don't like the facepunching / clown terminology as it is quite judgemental but spending 10x the money on something for the exact same function seems to qualify.  I understand that others would look at $150k on a boat as equally mad, but we can agree to disagree.

Perhaps we will see Ol1970 in the Bahamas.....

 

shawndoggy

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2018, 10:33:58 AM »
If you canít afford it, yes itís clownish...if you can afford it and actually use it there is honestly no better way Iíve found to spend my dollars.  I measure in dollars per smile, and hands down the boating life gives me a great ROI.  I often wonder what other people are doing on those beautiful 85 degrees and sunny days while we are surfing and swimming and playing games on the sandbar.  Yep a walk in the park is free, a mountain bike ride is free (minus the bike)...but I do those too often all in the same day. 

I do agree boats deprecate like rocks and suck money, but if itís all within your safe withdraw rate (mine is at about 1.5% currently) then why the hell not?  I guarantee you from two decades of living on the water, itís a great life!

Agree with most of this.  My experience is with wake boats (vdrive inboard).  On the depreciation side, though, there really hasn't been much (any?), mostly owing, I think, to the booming economy and the huge inflation in new boat prices.  Since 09 I'm on my 4th boat.  #1 bought used, put on 160 hours, sold for what I paid for it.  #2 bought new, put on 300 hours, sold for 94% of purchase price (but ate the sales tax, ouch).  #3 bought used, put on 70 hours and sold for what I paid.  Cars are a way worse "investment" than boats, especially if you take your time and don't buy between April and August (peak pricing season).  I'd say the sweet spot right now is probably 05-08.... the boats are fully depreciated, and with good maintenance practices should hold their value for at least the next five years.

Jouer

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2018, 10:56:44 AM »
I've never owned a boat, but my understanding is that boat stands for 'break out another thousand'. I know a few people with boats who spend a lot of time in and around their boats. They seem to be time and money consuming things. A bit like classic cars. Even little metal dinghies that people fish from in a harbour seem to have endless issues with engines.

I think the time consuming part is meant as a pro, not a con. This is their hobby, their love.

Now, on the money consuming side: it is almost always clownish.

Scandium

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2018, 11:34:15 AM »
Most people are buying way more boat than they need mostly because they want to impress and subsidize their friend's boating adventures as well. In that sense not only is it clownish, it's foolish. The best thing to do is become friends who derive their self worth from how other people view them and then you can let them subsidize your boating adventures.

A smart/frugal persons extent of water recreation activities would be kayaking/canoeing and fishing. A boat the size of all anyone would need with a motor the size of all anyone would need (to fish) can probably be had for under $1k.

What do you mean by 'more boat than they need"? Unless you live on an island nobody has any "need" whatsoever for a boat. Fishing is a huge waste of time and a I doubt it would save you money is most situations, certainly not if you could be earning money instead. Yes a boat is "clownish", if it means something that's not necessary for survival. But by that metric almost everything outside oxygen and water is. And with the MMM blog written with lots of hyperbole and generalizations there are bound to be debates about the applications of it's teachings..

That said I had great memories boating growing up, and I hope to give the same to my children. I even contemplate spending $30k on a sailboat (and $5k+/year after.) Just for fun! Oh the horror! But I don't care. IMO I save on other things precisely to be able to do things like this. Yes it's a stupid expensive hobby, but what's the point of making and saving lots of money if I can't use some of it on something enjoyable..
Yes maybe similar, but a canoe is not the same as sailing and sleeping on a 30 ft boat. I can't save up and retire then do this, my children would be older and I might be a cripple. But I also don't consider FIRE the all-important goal many others here do.  Could say I've fallen off the wagon (or on?). I've gotten tired of denying myself everything just to project that I will have $4mill when I'm 60..

Askel

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2018, 11:49:35 AM »
Boats are definitely a luxury.  And like all luxuries, can lead to spending at an absolutely astoundingly clownish level. 

However, with an eye for value, an understanding of the true costs involved, and some DIY ethos, I think boats can be enjoyed within the confines of the mustachian ethos.

One of my favorite documentaries on the subject:


GoCubsGo

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2018, 02:30:28 PM »
I have one neighbor who spent $75K on a 2 year old boat (was over $100K new) and he uses it a lot (lets say 50 days a year) and absolutely loves it.  I don't know his exact financial situation but from what I gathered over the years he is FI but likes to work and makes a ton of money.

My other neighbor travels about 2-3 weeks a year and spends roughly $15-20K a year on travel (can also afford it).  After 10 years the traveler probably spends quite a bit more than the boat lover even with gas and maintenance.  The boat IS his vacation and he doesn't have to cram it all into 2 weeks.

So many people on this board love to travel and throw rocks at people who choose other pleasures.  If you can afford it and it adds quality to your life I'm not gonna say either choice is clownish.

Chris22

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2018, 02:39:59 PM »

I think the time consuming part is meant as a pro, not a con. This is their hobby, their love.

Exactly.  Working on my DD car = pain in the butt, just want to get it done.

Working on my fun/hobby car = fun times, what I look forward to.

Rosy

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2018, 02:46:49 PM »
Yes and No. It all depends on your income. If it doesn't affect your budget/goals in a negative way then go for it!

Bicycle_B

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2018, 03:04:49 PM »
This thread always makes me smile when it pops up. I sold my soul to have a shot at making this little darling mine all mine. She's certainly fancy, but I'll still call her not-very-clownish at twice the price!



Hey, that's my money!

:)

PDXTabs

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Re: Is a fancy boat clownish spending?
« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2018, 10:45:07 PM »
I have a 22ft. sailboat.  Operating expenses per hour are miniscule because I burn about 1.5 gallons of gas per summer.  Where I get it is slip fees so I don't have to raise/lower the mast every time out.  I figure its costing me about $200 a month between fixes, storage, slip fees etc.  Is it clownish?

I too used to have a 22 foot (Catalina Capri 22) sailboat that if I skimped and saved I could keep in the water for $200/mo. But is it clownish? To me that depends on how often you get to use it. If you lived somewhere that you could sail all year and you took it out 3+ times a week that might be a great use of your money.