Author Topic: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early  (Read 3248 times)

2sk22

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Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« on: June 23, 2021, 06:21:36 AM »
Interesting article by Nick Maggiuli: https://ofdollarsanddata.com/dont-win-the-game-too-early/

I do agree with his thesis to some extent. I feel a lot of satisfaction from having accumulated my stash slowly over a long period of time.  But If I were 30 years old, I don't think I would have been able to give up a $10M gift. I think a lot would depend on whether it was public knowledge that I had the money.

Captain Cactus

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2021, 06:47:58 AM »
Interesting perspective.  That said, I still want to win the lottery.  Until then I will continue, slow and steady. 

wageslave23

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2021, 07:32:47 AM »
It's a nice thought.  But working for a livelihood is not a video game.  Once you have $10 million maybe then work becomes fun like this kids video game.  Overall a terrible analogy though.  If my job dealing with a dumbass boss and clients that are even more dumb, 9-5, 5 days a week, staring at a computer screen, tracking every dollar to make sure we can afford food, Healthcare, clothes, and eventual retirement were fun like a video game, then yes I would turn down $10 million.  But if my job were a video game, the creator would be fired because it would be the worst game ever.

bacchi

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2021, 08:28:18 AM »
It's a nice thought.  But working for a livelihood is not a video game.  Once you have $10 million maybe then work becomes fun like this kids video game.  Overall a terrible analogy though.  If my job dealing with a dumbass boss and clients that are even more dumb, 9-5, 5 days a week, staring at a computer screen, tracking every dollar to make sure we can afford food, Healthcare, clothes, and eventual retirement were fun like a video game, then yes I would turn down $10 million.  But if my job were a video game, the creator would be fired because it would be the worst game ever.

Word. That game would have very low sales.

JLee

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2021, 08:37:36 AM »
If someone's identity is inexorably tied to their careers, I could see that argument.

Mine however, is not.  If I didn't have to work, I'd be able to do so much shit I'm actually interested in doing!

Laura33

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2021, 08:58:06 AM »
working for a livelihood is not a video game. 

Precisely.  That is the kind of article that could be written only by someone who really enjoys his job and doesn't feel daily financial stress.  And if you're in that position, you've already won the game.

I do agree with the issues about the downside of sudden success.  It illustrates the need to be retiring "to" something instead of just running away from a job you hate.  Yes, if your plan for the future involves endless vacations and mai tais on the beach, you will be marvelously happy for a while, and then in a year or two you will very likely be bored and needing to do bigger/better/more exciting things to maintain the happy -- and suddenly poof, there goes that big windfall.  OTOH, if you've always wanted to be a SAHP, or an artist, or run a soup kitchen, or rebuild old cars, or whatever, but you have to work a 9-5 job to pay the bills, then the windfall provides you the opportunity to devote your energy to things that are more important and satisfying to you long-term.

I will also say that there is value in doing things the hard way.  Looking back, the most satisfying moments of my life have been the ones that required the most effort, patience, and growth to obtain.  The problem with the article is the automatic assumption that the end result must always be a material possession of some sort.  I do get that:  my StupidCar means a lot to me because I waited and worked and saved for decades for it, and because I didn't indulge until I had all of my other bases covered.  That is a tremendous feeling that I wouldn't have had if someone had handed me a six- or seven-figure check and told me to buy a StupidCar with it. 

But you know what is even more satisfying to me than "earning" my way toward my car?  Seeing my daughter grow into herself.  She is at the very skinny end of the bell curve in several ways, and absolutely none of the parenting skills I know worked with her.  So I read and I learned and I thought and I talked to doctors and psychiatrists and teachers, and I basically worked my ass off for most of 20 years to figure her out and give her what she needed -- which, again, did not come naturally to me, and in many cases was the opposite of what I needed (e.g., massive extrovert vs. total introvert).  It is far and away the hardest thing I have ever done.  And seeing her now, in college, managing herself, getting good grades, developing a tight circle of friends, having ideas and options for a productive career path, and just generally acting like a grown-up who won't need to live in my basement?  That is, by far, the single-most satisfying thing I have ever experienced.  Because it was hard, because I had to grow in ways I never even imagined -- and because the result of a happy, healthy adult child is infinitely more important than any consumer good.

Defining success based on "things I can buy if I save and am patient" misses the point.  Think instead of "things I can do if I invest my skills, time, and effort." 

sixwings

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2021, 10:13:30 AM »
I could see it being with an unearned windfall. I was reading about a bitcoin person who gambled and put all their money into bitcoin in like 2015, the person now have 30-50M, quit their job etc and is now considering suicide because they have no purpose anymore. The person is like 30, has no skills, can't relate to their friends, is now questioning all their friendships and whether the person is actually a friend or just using them for money, can't find a relationship because money is always part of the conversation, and apparently is really struggling with purpose. However, that said, i think it could largely be temporary, with some counselling it would probably be reasonable to expect to find a new purpose/develop one and be happy.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 10:16:19 AM by sixwings »

MoneyTree

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2021, 10:16:44 AM »
I agree with the general premise of the article that having a ton of money dropped into your lap at a young age is detrimental, but whether or not it turns out badly for someone probably has more to do with their financial discipline than anything else.

For someone who understands the value of money and that excessive spending is not the path to happiness, then that person likely would be fine with a windfall.

For someone who thinks that money is the solution to everything above and beyond meeting your needs, then yes it can be detrimental.

For me, and I suspect most people on this forum, getting a $10M windfall would not mean mansions and ferraris. I'd upgrade some things in our lifestyle for sure, but then the rest would go with the rest of my stash, giving me freedom to pursue what is important.

wageslave23

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2021, 11:35:00 AM »
working for a livelihood is not a video game. 

Precisely.  That is the kind of article that could be written only by someone who really enjoys his job and doesn't feel daily financial stress.  And if you're in that position, you've already won the game.

I do agree with the issues about the downside of sudden success.  It illustrates the need to be retiring "to" something instead of just running away from a job you hate.  Yes, if your plan for the future involves endless vacations and mai tais on the beach, you will be marvelously happy for a while, and then in a year or two you will very likely be bored and needing to do bigger/better/more exciting things to maintain the happy -- and suddenly poof, there goes that big windfall.  OTOH, if you've always wanted to be a SAHP, or an artist, or run a soup kitchen, or rebuild old cars, or whatever, but you have to work a 9-5 job to pay the bills, then the windfall provides you the opportunity to devote your energy to things that are more important and satisfying to you long-term.

I will also say that there is value in doing things the hard way.  Looking back, the most satisfying moments of my life have been the ones that required the most effort, patience, and growth to obtain.  The problem with the article is the automatic assumption that the end result must always be a material possession of some sort.  I do get that:  my StupidCar means a lot to me because I waited and worked and saved for decades for it, and because I didn't indulge until I had all of my other bases covered.  That is a tremendous feeling that I wouldn't have had if someone had handed me a six- or seven-figure check and told me to buy a StupidCar with it. 

But you know what is even more satisfying to me than "earning" my way toward my car?  Seeing my daughter grow into herself.  She is at the very skinny end of the bell curve in several ways, and absolutely none of the parenting skills I know worked with her.  So I read and I learned and I thought and I talked to doctors and psychiatrists and teachers, and I basically worked my ass off for most of 20 years to figure her out and give her what she needed -- which, again, did not come naturally to me, and in many cases was the opposite of what I needed (e.g., massive extrovert vs. total introvert).  It is far and away the hardest thing I have ever done.  And seeing her now, in college, managing herself, getting good grades, developing a tight circle of friends, having ideas and options for a productive career path, and just generally acting like a grown-up who won't need to live in my basement?  That is, by far, the single-most satisfying thing I have ever experienced.  Because it was hard, because I had to grow in ways I never even imagined -- and because the result of a happy, healthy adult child is infinitely more important than any consumer good.

Defining success based on "things I can buy if I save and am patient" misses the point.  Think instead of "things I can do if I invest my skills, time, and effort."

Wow, now I'm curious.  What kind of car do you have?

wageslave23

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2021, 11:42:11 AM »
On a related note, my wife and I were discussing how much we would give to our children if we were ridiculously wealthy.  I said that I would want my kids to "struggle" and work on their own through college and a few years after in order to learn discipline and perseverance and the value of money.  But then I would quickly swoop in and make sure money was never a factor going forward.  I think it would be cruel to sit by and watch a loved one struggle for 10+ years wasting a good portion of their lives if you could bail them out with ridiculous wealth.  This is just looking at the same issue from the other perspective. 

Laura33

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2021, 12:28:13 PM »
Wow, now I'm curious.  What kind of car do you have?

I have the classic fat-balding-guy-midlife-crisis-penismobile:  a (used) 911 convertible.  (Yes, there's a reason I call it the StupidCar).  4S, GTS version, with a stick (of course).  I'm still not a huge fan of how they look (see "fat-balding-guy-midlife-crisis-penismobile," supra -- if I were going for looks, it would be Maserati, a/k/a sex on wheels).  But oh boy does that puppy drive.

NorthernIkigai

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2021, 12:45:21 PM »
Here, lottery wins are usually on the scale of 1.5 million dollars up to maybe 10 million or so. Winners are always anonymous, but the company will reveal the city and if it was a group of people or just one (the coupons are somehow different).

When the pot goes up to 10 million, people will actually be relieved when they hear it was a group of 5 people who split it. Many will consider 1 or 2 million to be manageable, but 10 million to be possibly ruinous.

Winners sometimes give anonymous interviews to newspapers or the lottery company. They pretty much always say "oh, we might update our car(s), but otherwise we're not going to change anything about our lives". They keep their jobs and don't even tell their friends, but are happy knowing they can support their adult children or favourite good causes. One family said several years afterwards "the only thing that's different now is that we don't play 'what would you do if you won the lottery?' on long car journeys anymore".

Pretty anticlimactic... I still play, though, and also just hope for 1 or 2 million if I do win.

wageslave23

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2021, 12:53:27 PM »
Wow, now I'm curious.  What kind of car do you have?

I have the classic fat-balding-guy-midlife-crisis-penismobile:  a (used) 911 convertible.  (Yes, there's a reason I call it the StupidCar).  4S, GTS version, with a stick (of course).  I'm still not a huge fan of how they look (see "fat-balding-guy-midlife-crisis-penismobile," supra -- if I were going for looks, it would be Maserati, a/k/a sex on wheels).  But oh boy does that puppy drive.

Nice!

Metalcat

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2021, 12:58:52 PM »
Lol, I'm retired in my 30s and not being forced to work so that I don't lose my home hasn't hindered my ability to thrive at all. Nor has it made my life too easy, nor has it made it boring.

There are too many wonderful and amazing worthwhile things to do that are MUCH easier to do when you don't depend on a minimum, ongoing income.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2021, 01:01:27 PM »
When you grow up like I did, worrying about getting enough to eat, having clothes to wear, a roof over your head, etc., you find discussions about the "evil" nature of money to be very strange. When I have a lot of money (I'm already on my way there), I am going to be very happy and live a great life. There will be no hand-wringing or psychological stress from it. It'll just be eating good food, doing fun things, and living extremely well. People who have lived easy lives seem very strange to me.

Metalcat

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2021, 01:14:28 PM »
When you grow up like I did, worrying about getting enough to eat, having clothes to wear, a roof over your head, etc., you find discussions about the "evil" nature of money to be very strange. When I have a lot of money (I'm already on my way there), I am going to be very happy and live a great life. There will be no hand-wringing or psychological stress from it. It'll just be eating good food, doing fun things, and living extremely well. People who have lived easy lives seem very strange to me.

Same.

I've seen young inherited wealth handled poorly, but a lot of shit is handled poorly when people are young.

If someone doesn't have the wherewithal to learn how to enjoy their life and take on challenges despite not being at risk of losing their home, then that person needs therapy.

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2021, 03:33:29 PM »
I struggle with this piece of logic, if money is a cheat code that should not be used, why is it acceptable to use a cheat code to pay off the debts of the immediate family? Depending on the circumstances that could be a be a large chunk of the 10 million.

The use of a video game and cheat codes made me chuckle. I am currently playing a video game and using cheat codes. Guess what? For me it improves the experience, I do not have to collecting things and sell or spend hours fighting pointless battles just to level up so I can do something that advances the plot. Instead I get to focus on the plot, which IMO is good, interactions between characters and how my choices impact them.

Now if it were a game did not have meaningful plot and the only things that advanced the game were directly related to gathering and spending money quicker than another placer can do the same, then yeah a cheat code would make that game boring very quickly. Luckily life can have an almost unlimited number of plot lines and a cast of characters with an upper limit of about 7,874,658,452.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 03:37:20 PM by BudgetSlasher »

redbird

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2021, 10:36:42 PM »
In September, I'll have been FIRE for 6 years. I have not worked a single day since then. I am still in my 30's. Yep, I'm sure he would say I "won the game too early." But I am not bored. I sometimes still wish I had MORE time in my day, because there's still things I wanted to do in early retirement that I haven't gotten to yet due to lack of time. I hope to get to these things eventually but if not... well, that's OK. I am doing all things I WANT to do.

The job I quit from paid well, but I worked approximately 48 hours a week including commute time and a mandatory but unpaid lunch period each day. That was 48 hours per week I didn't get to do what I wanted to do. Not only that, but the job mentally exhausted me. By the end, the work politics were so toxic that I was extremely depressed and struggling to force myself to do anything during the hours I wasn't at work. It didn't feel like I was living at all.

Yes, there are stories of people who have FIREd and had regrets, people who had a failed FIRE due to various reasons, and people who won the lottery and the money ended up causing problems for them. But those stories don't mean anything. Everyone has different experiences in life, different wants and needs, etc. I don't regret FIRE at all.

Also, considering that man's job, he actually profits more on people continuing to work and needing his personal finance advice. I don't need it thus I'm not bringing him more $, so of course he's going to complain about my lifestyle.

Dreamer40

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2021, 06:44:00 AM »
FIRE is the opposite of winning a lottery for most of us. It’s a hard challenging goal to accomplish all in itself. It’s not easy to save so much money when all my peers spent it. Figuring out finances and investments is also complicated for many of us. I’m not actually interested in economics but pushed myself to understand what I needed to know about money. So I don’t think FIRE would have the same mental effect of being given all the money in a windfall.

That said, I do have some concerns about getting it “too early” if you didn’t have to push yourself to earn it. The professional skills I built in my 30s would never have been developed if I’d quit earlier. I can’t decide if all the misery was worth getting those skills, but it probably was. I’m curious what skills I’ll never be forced to develop now that I don’t need to work anymore. But this may not be true for everyone. Financial stress is not the only incentive to grow. It’s just one effective one :)

Metalcat

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2021, 06:49:12 AM »
FIRE is the opposite of winning a lottery for most of us. It’s a hard challenging goal to accomplish all in itself. It’s not easy to save so much money when all my peers spent it. Figuring out finances and investments is also complicated for many of us. I’m not actually interested in economics but pushed myself to understand what I needed to know about money. So I don’t think FIRE would have the same mental effect of being given all the money in a windfall.

That said, I do have some concerns about getting it “too early” if you didn’t have to push yourself to earn it. The professional skills I built in my 30s would never have been developed if I’d quit earlier. I can’t decide if all the misery was worth getting those skills, but it probably was. I’m curious what skills I’ll never be forced to develop now that I don’t need to work anymore. But this may not be true for everyone. Financial stress is not the only incentive to grow. It’s just one effective one :)

I've developed plenty of skills since retiring.

DadJokes

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2021, 07:06:03 AM »
If you fail in a video game, you can play again. You don't get a do-over in life. The author even said that using the cheat code was fun the first few times. Well, guess what? The first time he used it is the only time that is relevant to the discussion.

I do agree that there still needs to be something to strive for, and being handed $10 million at 18 would have been bad for me. Being handed $10 million today wouldn't change who I am substantially.

Metalcat

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2021, 07:09:04 AM »
If you fail in a video game, you can play again. You don't get a do-over in life. The author even said that using the cheat code was fun the first few times. Well, guess what? The first time he used it is the only time that is relevant to the discussion.

I do agree that there still needs to be something to strive for, and being handed $10 million at 18 would have been bad for me. Being handed $10 million today wouldn't change who I am substantially.

Lol, I've seen a few young people inherit large sums of money, including my step brother. It doesn't permanently change their lives because they tend to lose it pretty quickly, like most lottery winners do.

Aelias

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2021, 07:58:44 AM »

But you know what is even more satisfying to me than "earning" my way toward my car?  Seeing my daughter grow into herself.  She is at the very skinny end of the bell curve in several ways, and absolutely none of the parenting skills I know worked with her.  So I read and I learned and I thought and I talked to doctors and psychiatrists and teachers, and I basically worked my ass off for most of 20 years to figure her out and give her what she needed -- which, again, did not come naturally to me, and in many cases was the opposite of what I needed (e.g., massive extrovert vs. total introvert).  It is far and away the hardest thing I have ever done.  And seeing her now, in college, managing herself, getting good grades, developing a tight circle of friends, having ideas and options for a productive career path, and just generally acting like a grown-up who won't need to live in my basement?  That is, by far, the single-most satisfying thing I have ever experienced.  Because it was hard, because I had to grow in ways I never even imagined -- and because the result of a happy, healthy adult child is infinitely more important than any consumer good.


It's a bit off topic here, but having one of my kids who I can already sense will have a hard time fitting into the wider world, I didn't know how much I needed to hear this.  Thanks.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2021, 08:07:09 AM »
I can kinda relate. I won a significant amount - mid 6 figs - playing the lottery (not really, got a big windfall out of an investment; I had insider knowledge about the state of the industry generally, albeit not a particular company, which made the transaction legal) before I turned 30 and it kinda stunted my motivation a little, made me needlessly haughty and just screwed around with my mindset. It took a few years to reset. I would have been better off I think earning that money some other way (like maybe through 3 years of elevated salary etc) rather than getting it in one hit. I definitely felt a sense of ennui and it was only by recalibrating my expectations and goals (in terms of friends, career satisfaction) that I overcame it, slowly, but it definitely had a corrosive effect.

It's only now, several years later, that the benefits of the windfall - in terms of me never having to worry about money, or paying bills etc - are starting to outweigh the negatives. My hope is now that for the rest of my life, since I'll never have to count coins, budget or worry about money, I can recoup the benefit of the windfall.

I think also the source of the money is important in some ways - I feel like I "deserve" my wages more than a windfall of the first sort, since I didn't earn the former. Not that the former was plain luck, but I didn't really earn it in the traditional sense.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 08:09:21 AM by Bloop Bloop Reloaded »

svosavvy

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2021, 08:07:38 AM »
Wow, now I'm curious.  What kind of car do you have?

I have the classic fat-balding-guy-midlife-crisis-penismobile:  a (used) 911 convertible.  (Yes, there's a reason I call it the StupidCar).  4S, GTS version, with a stick (of course).  I'm still not a huge fan of how they look (see "fat-balding-guy-midlife-crisis-penismobile," supra -- if I were going for looks, it would be Maserati, a/k/a sex on wheels).  But oh boy does that puppy drive.
Ha, long live the f-b-g-m-c-p-mobile. 

svosavvy

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2021, 08:17:39 AM »
The skills are what feed you the fish.  So if you start with nothing and end up with a million dollars that means the skills are literally worth millions of dollars.  Congrats we have all won.  A family member of mine lived hand to mouth well into his late adulthood with terrible money habits.  He literally inherited close to a million dollars from his parents when they aged out/passed.  It was gone in a couple years.  Sometimes in the past I got mad about that.  He could have done a lot of good for people in his life and still had plenty left over.  Nowadays thinking back it was what it was, but, I'm so glad I had to work for it.  It gave me the skills just like a muscle work out.  Mustache muscle.

ericrugiero

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2021, 08:40:37 AM »
I think it's a good article that brings out a real hazard of being rich whether you "won the game" early, inherited a large amount or won the lottery.  Humans are happiest when the have a purpose and a sense of accomplishment.  For many, this comes from their job.  MMM refers to this as doing "hard things".  If anyone gets wealthy and then just sits around watching TV all day they will likely be unhappy.  Even things we enjoy can get old over time.  I would LOVE to ski more than I do now.  But, skiing every day all winter long would get old. 

IMO, the article is a good reminder that we all need to keep a sense of purpose and accomplish things.  I don't think it matters if that comes from a job or through some other means.

obstinate

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2021, 12:24:35 PM »
I disagree. The reason not to use cheatcodes in games is because the fun of the game is the work involved in building up your resources. Now, if you get great joy out of your work -- like if you'd do it for free -- then great, in that case build your stash slowly. But if like most people you'd rather spend much less of your time working, then the correspondence between videogames and real life here is broken.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2021, 02:55:09 PM »
I think I understand where the author is coming from, basically, you only need enough money to have a comfortable life, everything else is excess. To me, that’s essentially the MMM ethos. It’s taken me awhile to understand and appreciate this. Like a lot of people, growing up you get tempted and enthralled by the idea of wealthy and appearing successful, and how could you not when you’re marketed to as a consumer relentlessly from a variety of data points for years? I would have wasted, easily, any windfall before understanding the MMM ethos. Now, I could manage if any windfall would happen. My focus is on experiences, not things. Covid has added a focus on security, and age is adding a focus on a legacy that benefits others in need. All my money, no matter how much, would go to those three areas, and I’d get to live the best version of me. That’s winning the game of life.

boarder42

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Re: Interesting article: Don't win the game too early
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2021, 03:05:13 PM »
Unless you're trying to be frugal to the level of MMM whichever he isn't as frugal as he claims he's built a lifestyle around this concept in Longmont complete with purchasing a building and filling it with stuff he considers good.

Then everyone will reach a tipping point in saving and investing where the cost of a marginal dollar saved is not as valuable as it was earlier in your journey.

I think more important than anything while on the journey to FI is to enjoy it and to understand what each enjoyment you add costs you both in time to fi and in time in your life. Going out to eat often takes longer than eating a meal at home yet so many think they NEED this in their lives multiple times a day.

Cutting everything pretty bare and then slowly adding back along the journey things you find you miss is a perfectly healthy path to FI as long as you understand the costs of the action.