The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: EverythingisNew on April 03, 2019, 03:52:43 AM
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Last night we went out to dinner with family to a fancy restaurant. It was so expensive! $40+ for an entry! I immediately felt nauseous when I looked at the menu prices. I ordered only an appetizer and made my 3 toddlers share one order of fries. My husband got a $40 meal and a drink. We were with family celebrating my in-laws 65th birthday. It was a special event, but I was upset and hungry because I was sharing with my 3 kids. Everyone else ordered drinks. Now it’s the middle of the night and I’m still upset about this dinner! I feel like I’m in my own bubble with this because everyone else had fun, even my husband, but I can’t loosen up.
Does anyone else have trouble with buyers remorse?
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OP your story reads like you are dealing with intense anxiety. Money is just your presenting issue. Have you ever spoken with a medical doctor or therapist about your feelings?
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I don't think you're being mustachian. I think you have some issues around spending money that you need to get sorted. It's fine to not want to waste money on a fancy dinner that you don't want, but considering that you were there celebrating someone else's birthday, and presumably someone else planned it, and most of your family enjoyed it, the lingering resentment is unhealthy.
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I actually have gone to a therapist, but she was impressed that I was so good at saving money. I think I’m also proud of myself and that’s why it’s hard for me to loosen up. It’s maybe a bit similar to an eating disorder where the person is proud that they are skinny but I also know that it’s obsessive.
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I could only go to the therapist a few times because I thought it was too expensive.
Yes, I can see how you would fall into thinking this.
You do seem to have something akin to an eating disorder, and it seems to be making you unable to enjoy normal life things. Going out to celebrate a milestone birthday is a normal life thing, which you admit you can easily afford. Making your children share one order of fries is not normal, and probably not helping your relationship with them or with your spouse. If you told that story to your former therapist I don't think they would applaud your money saving skills.
Do you want to change this? If so, you are probably going to need some help. You could certainly start with a visit to your medical doctor, which will be covered by your health insurance. You could seek out lower cost therapy options. There are many affordable online therapy services now that may interest you. You could find group therapy in your area. But all of that is just dancing around the problem. You can't let yourself spend money because it is your means of controlling your environment to an unhealthy and debilitating extent. Until you can work on that in good faith your situation won't improve.
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Money isn’t the end goal. It’s so you can enjoy things. You need to reframe.
You spent the money anyway, but instead of enjoying yourself and having a good time celebrating with your family, you mourned every cent out of pocket and split a side dish three ways. That’s... just cheap. No part of that is enjoyable for anyone, kids included. Especially the kids.
I guarantee you could have looked up the restaurant before going. Do that next time, mentally prepare to shell out, and ENJOY YOUR MEAL instead of being miserable about it. This could have been a really fun memory, and now all you’re thinking about is the bill at the end of the night. When you’ve already said you have the cash for it, and it’s obviously not a weekly occurrence for your family.
This is not mustachian. This is miserable. Honestly if you were at all outwardly acting like you felt as written in this thread, you may actually want to consider whether an apology is in order to those you were with.
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Thanks for the reply lexdy. The kids are 5, 2 and 1 so they didn’t mind sharing the fries and I made them more food at home. I hope it wasn’t that noticeable that I was upset. I told everyone that I wasn’t hungry and I was helping the toddlers eat so I think it wasn’t noticed. My husband noticed.
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[quote author]But all of that is just dancing around the problem. You can't let yourself spend money because it is your means of controlling your environment to an unhealthy and debilitating extent. Until you can work on that in good faith your situation won't improve.
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I will think about this more. Thank you 🙏 It’s interesting to think of it as controlling my environment.
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It sounds like you have lost the plot, perhaps lost sight of the purpose of money. Hoarding money is just...hoarding. Money is a tool.
Strategically planning, saving, investing, and spending to maximize happiness and wellbeing of yourself and others is the point.
A few years ago, I had gone through (am still going through) a transformative therapy experience, and my best friend asked me when I was going to help others do that. That planted a seed about going back to school and changing careers. This was a fiscally stupid thing to do (I had a good job), and it was doubly stupid that I really wanted to do the doctorate, not just the masters. During one of our many conversations on the topic, I said to her, "I can't do this. I can't spend 80 grand on college for myself at this stage of my life." She just looked at me and said, "What is money for if not to help you live the kind of life you want?" She is a chief investment officer--her entire career revolves around saving and investing money--and yet she never lost sight of the purpose of money.
Fast forward three years, I am neck deep in a doctorate, two of my kids will be heading off to college in the next few years, so three of us will be in college at the same time. And I'm in bliss. Happier than I've ever been. After I quit my job to become a full-time student, DH unexpectedly got laid off, and we ended up selling my dream home where we'd lived for 15 years and downsizing so I could stay in school. And we weathered all of that really well, because we never lost sight of what's important in life: people and experiences.
You seem to be aware of this as an anxiety response, and your analogy of an eating disorder is a good one. These are called egosyntonic disorders, which mean your behaviors are in line with your self-image and/or the "acceptable" needs of your ego. So you praise yourself and also receive praise from others (the therapist!) for the very behaviors that are dysfunctional and unhealthy.
As others, I recommend therapy. It is often covered by medical insurance and even if not, often well worth the money. Have you calculated how much money you are losing out on by being mostly invested in bonds and CDs? If you ran the calculations with a historic look back, I think you'd be shocked. So you think you are "saving" money, and you are in a fashion, but you're actually potentially losing out on vast amounts of money because of your anxiety.
Good luck with this. As a fellow-sufferer of anxiety, I know how uncomfortable it is. But the good news is, you can do something about it.
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Such wonderful posts here. I too struggle with spending money. I give myself a fun line item each month which seems to help me since I've planned for it in the monthly spending plan AKA budget. Then when I'm at a restaurant or a movie or show I really do savor the joy of the people I'm with and the experiences I'm having. Like others have said - the purpose of money is to provide us with the life we want to live. Please do keep pondering this and keep us posted on your thoughts and next steps!
Warmly!!
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Maybe you could reframe it. Tell yourself, in similar situations, that you are not spending money on food. You are buying a gift for your family member.
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I do think that you need to work on your feelings regarding investments, as your investment choices are costing you far more than an occasional splurge on an overly expensive meal. Fear of loss is real, and everyone does have their 'Sleep Well at Night' asset allocation. However, 90% in fixed income is excessively conservative for anyone, and particularly someone who is not yet retired.
I'm not recommending following the 100% stock mindset that permeates (too) much of this forum. I am recommending attacking your mindset, though. You might head on over to the Bogleheads forum and get advice on asset allocation. When you look at your entire portfolio, rather than just focusing upon perhaps the volatile components, a decently conservative asset allocation will not move quite so much with the markets. You might also adopt some strategies to hide daily fluctuations in your investments from your conscious mind. Something needs to be done there, or you're truly wasting your savings.
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next time you go out, don't look at the menu. ask your husband to order for you and the kids and just trust that he will do right by you. you don't have to look at the prices or see the bill. focus on enjoying the moment, rather than the cost.
i know that's specific to this one type of outing, but i think the big picture has been covered by previous posts.
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next time you go out, don't look at the menu. ask your husband to order for you and the kids and just trust that he will do right by you. you don't have to look at the prices or see the bill. focus on enjoying the moment, rather than the cost.
i know that's specific to this one type of outing, but i think the big picture has been covered by previous posts.
This is great advice. On other occasions where we'll be splitting bills and some people buy wildly outrageous entrees, I have to engage in "defensive ordering" to make sure mine costs as much or more than theirs so I get my money's worth. :(
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Just wanted to chime in that I would have (and do) feel the same way. I'll have guilt for days about not getting the best price on something or it not living up to my expectations. I'm currently guilting myself over paying $5 extra to buy a coffee cup in store vs online. This was from SATURDAY. I also would not have been able to enjoy the dinner and would be doing mental gymnastics in my head the entire time. It's no fun.
I never thought of it as an anxiety response.... I always shot it off in my mind of only stupid complacent people would do such a thing and that I should be better! (Likely just deflection to make myself feel better) But reading that controlling aspect made me pause and think. Something to ponder on today. Thanks.
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I hate to think of you stressing yourself so badly about something you reasonably can afford. It was a special occasion and one worth celebrating. It sounds like you don't indulge in celebrations like this very often. Since you are such a good saver, maybe you would feel better about creating a savings category for this sort of thing? We have a gift fund and an entertainment fund. We put money into both each month. I never feel bad about spending this money because we budgeted for it.
I don't want this to come off as parental guilt trip but your kids will notice your attitudes about money as they get older. It's certainly a benefit to them to learn about saving for goals but it will also be a benefit to them to see you enjoying yourself and the things you and your spouse work for.
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We just came back from a trip to Disneyland. I did NOT want to do this trip. My husband's brother and sister were coming from other countries with their children and this was a trip that they wanted to take. When DH first told me about it my reaction was extremely negative. Not only was the expense exorbitant, it wasn't during a school break for us so we had to take our children out of school, miss extracurricular activities that we already paid for, etc. All for a stupid overcrowded overpriced theme park.
DH said, "We don't HAVE to go if you don't want to." But clearly he wanted to go on this family reunion with siblings that he rarely sees. Marriage is about compromise, so I grit my teeth and said yes. Financially we can well afford the trip.
As soon as the decision was made, I made up my mind to stop thinking about the negatives. If we were going to spend the money and the trouble, then by hell was I going to enjoy it. I researched the best ways to do Disneyland with my children, made plans, and our kids had a blast. It was exhausting, of course, but not nearly as stressful as I'd feared. It was wonderful to see my daughter jumping up and down in excitement during almost the entire Disneyland parade. They also loved hanging out with their cousins. It still isn't the kind of trip I would do voluntarily, but if there is no choice I don't see the point of spending money AND being miserable.
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We just came back from a trip to Disneyland. I did NOT want to do this trip. My husband's brother and sister were coming from other countries with their children and this was a trip that they wanted to take. When DH first told me about it my reaction was extremely negative. Not only was the expense exorbitant, it wasn't during a school break for us so we had to take our children out of school, miss extracurricular activities that we already paid for, etc. All for a stupid overcrowded overpriced theme park.
DH said, "We don't HAVE to go if you don't want to." But clearly he wanted to go on this family reunion with siblings that he rarely sees. Marriage is about compromise, so I grit my teeth and said yes. Financially we can well afford the trip.
As soon as the decision was made, I made up my mind to stop thinking about the negatives. If we were going to spend the money and the trouble, then by hell was I going to enjoy it. I researched the best ways to do Disneyland with my children, made plans, and our kids had a blast. It was exhausting, of course, but not nearly as stressful as I'd feared. It was wonderful to see my daughter jumping up and down in excitement during almost the entire Disneyland parade. They also loved hanging out with their cousins. It still isn't the kind of trip I would do voluntarily, but if there is no choice I don't see the point of spending money AND being miserable.
Honestly, this is the perfect attitude to have. You didn’t hide your feelings, but once the decision was made, you supported it and made the decision to enjoy the trip. Good on you!
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We were with family celebrating my in-laws 65th birthday. It was a special event, but I was upset and hungry because I was sharing with my 3 kids.
Going out to eat for a special event is not expensive. Going out to eat as a habit is.
I also have 90% of my money in bonds and CDs because I know I would have a mental breakdown if the stock market crashed. I can’t handle losing thousands of dollars in a day when I put so much effort into saving money.
If you have at least $130k in bonds/CDs then you "lost" thousands of dollars in a single day on February 12th by missing out on SP500 gains. Similar for half a dozen or more other days so far just this year.
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This is from the book "It's Your Money - Becoming a Woman of Independent Means" by Gail Vaz-Oxlade
Your Money Personality is "Miser" vs Spender, Avoider, Acquirer, Depriver or Debtor if:
- I enjoy holding onto money
- I find it difficult to spend on myself
- I find it difficult to give to others
- I seldom give to charity
- I'm always on the lookout for the least expensive gift
- I'm afraid I won't have enough money
- I often put off buying something because I''m sure I can get it cheaper elsewhere
- My family often gets angry with me because I refuse to spend money
- I could never trust anyone else with my money
- I often say "I can't afford it"
This all results from fear of not having enough, of being poor an/or of catastrophe. You make sure you never run out of money by
not spending any. You have no confidence in your ability to make more money. You think the gravy train is about to end and you'll end up destitute. Money is a symbol of security. If you fear poverty so much that you create it in your daily life, you are living your worst nightmare. Instead of focusing so much on the future, live each day as if you have enough money. It's not money that makes you rich, it's just paper and coins. It's what you choose to do with that money that will determine the richness of your life.
The solution:
-make a list of five things you would like to buy for yourself, such as a book, flowers, a candle etc. Get someone else to add 2 more items.
-each week, buy one of those items.
-make a list of the people closest to you. List an item each person would like. Once a week, buy one of those items for one of the people.
-each time a catastrophic image comes into you mind, write it down on a piece of paper. Put the papers into a box. At the end of each week, destroy each piece of paper in whatever manner you like, while reminding
yourself that you will not give up control of your life to the Worry Demon.
All great advice. If you can relate to this, try it. Nothing to lose except fear.
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I feel you , I have anxiety and at times reacted the same way as you in similar situations .
What helped me .
If going to a place I look up a menu , I notice the prices , if it's an expensive place , I would pick from cheapest main meals . I won't have desert etc as I'll be full after a main .
I also make a line in my budget for "dining out " , gifts , etc . Once it's allocated I feel no anxiety to spend .
Once the decision is made to spend ( like dining out ) I let it go , because the feeling of that anxiety is worse than money I spent .
I have to say these small steps helped me enormously .
Good luck !
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Am I the only one who totally identified with the OP's story? Ugh. I hate spending like that at restaurants, especially if it is a group family thing...compulsory and you don't get to choose the venue... and I realized that it wasn't fun for me, at all, and eventually I figured out how to decline (shocking my parent and just invite people over to dinner (because being 100% host for 8 was actually cheaper than 2.5 meals).
Eventually what worked for me was having a monthly allowance for my own personal spend. I could choose to attend, enjoy it despite the price, because I knew I had the allowance already, with more coming the next month, and could just cut short other fun spending to compensate (e.g., cut back on a hair cuts or buying hobby supplies, or ?).
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Really sorry to hear that you feel so anxious. This sounds disabling. Maybe you could find a different therapist as saying you are really good at saving when it is interfering with enjoyment of a family event like this seems like it could be a bit like telling someone with anorexia they are good at dieting. Is there any coverage through a work health plan? I wonder if your doctor could help as well? Doesn’t mean you have to become a spender.
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The last time I had buyers remorse was when I made a large impulse purchase on my current (soon to be former) car. It didnt hit me until maybe a month later, but at that point I had to live with the decision.
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I can relate to feeling a bit queasy to spending a lot on a meal and not particularly liking it. Since it's not usually my idea to eat out, or when it would be more appropriate to eat out than to eat in (because reasons), I try very hard to think of the expense as some fixed fee to "check off" the event. It's a sunk cost (economic term) based on the event, which for some reason or another I considered important -- so I try to just suck it up and be happy with the event.
As to the 90% allocation to bonds and CDs.... wow. I think this is distinctly unmustachian (unless your stash is relatively small at the moment and this is mostly your emergency fund). You're risking a VERY substantial amount of capital gains over the long run with this approach. Funny thing is, the way I see it right now, dividends alone are almost what you're going to get with a CD. Plus long-run cap gains on top? No brainer to me... as long as you have a good emergency cushion that makes you feel comfortable.
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Am I the only one who totally identified with the OP's story? Ugh. I hate spending like that at restaurants, especially if it is a group family thing...compulsory and you don't get to choose the venue... and I realized that it wasn't fun for me, at all, and eventually I figured out how to decline (shocking my parent and just invite people over to dinner (because being 100% host for 8 was actually cheaper than 2.5 meals).
Eventually what worked for me was having a monthly allowance for my own personal spend. I could choose to attend, enjoy it despite the price, because I knew I had the allowance already, with more coming the next month, and could just cut short other fun spending to compensate (e.g., cut back on a hair cuts or buying hobby supplies, or ?).
I understand the sentiment, and have had many angry meals in the past, particularly when forced to split the check with big spenders. Similar to you, my remedy was budgeting, yet still feeling the freedom to tactfully decline when the option exists (such as when our good friends really wanted us to go to a $175/person prix fixe dining experience with them; I know that it would upset me too much to blow that kind of money on a meal).
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My family is in the restaurant business. Yes, I rarely go to places that have $40 a plate prices. But- if I did end up at one of those places, I would love to look at the menu and get something I would normally not get and NO, not share it with my toddler kids.
The unfortunate thing, is that a place like that is normally NOT the place to bring kids under say 8. They won't appreciate the food, and the parents rather than being able to enjoy an evening out with friends, family, finely prepared food and the atmosphere, will be having to mind very small children.
Do not get me wrong. I am very pro all parents teaching their children how to behave, and yes even enjoy restaurant dining. But a $40 a plate restaurant and toddlers, is not the place to start.
You shouldn't feel bad. Whoever organized did do a faux pas of the combination of the place and including very small children. Either include everyone in the family and choose a location that is family friendly (macaroni grill), or if they HAVE to eat at some special place, make it a special adults-only event. Off my soapbox.
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eventually I figured out how to decline (shocking my parent and just invite people over to dinner (because being 100% host for 8 was actually cheaper than 2.5 meals).
This is a legitimate solution to a problem. You used your words to propose an alternative and everyone was able to compromise. Great!
What struck me about OPs situation was 1) the sheer amount of misery over spending what is ultimately a very small sum of money and 2) forcing 3 children to share one order of fries. I am 100% sure the 5 year old at least noticed and their parent's anxiety is making an impression on a young mind.
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My family is in the restaurant business. Yes, I rarely go to places that have $40 a plate prices. But- if I did end up at one of those places, I would love to look at the menu and get something I would normally not get and NO, not share it with my toddler kids.
The unfortunate thing, is that a place like that is normally NOT the place to bring kids under say 8. They won't appreciate the food, and the parents rather than being able to enjoy an evening out with friends, family, finely prepared food and the atmosphere, will be having to mind very small children.
Do not get me wrong. I am very pro all parents teaching their children how to behave, and yes even enjoy restaurant dining. But a $40 a plate restaurant and toddlers, is not the place to start.
You shouldn't feel bad. Whoever organized did do a faux pas of the combination of the place and including very small children. Either include everyone in the family and choose a location that is family friendly (macaroni grill), or if they HAVE to eat at some special place, make it a special adults-only event. Off my soapbox.
+1
(Though my family is not in the restaurant business, I agree with the sentiments expressed.)
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eventually I figured out how to decline (shocking my parent and just invite people over to dinner (because being 100% host for 8 was actually cheaper than 2.5 meals).
This is a legitimate solution to a problem. You used your words to propose an alternative and everyone was able to compromise. Great!
What struck me about OPs situation was 1) the sheer amount of misery over spending what is ultimately a very small sum of money and 2) forcing 3 children to share one order of fries. I am 100% sure the 5 year old at least noticed and their parent's anxiety is making an impression on a young mind.
Agree with all of this & the great guidance given further up thread about therapy. Another thing I would recommend is to prepare yourself by looking ahead at a menu. If you are really uninterested in spending a lot on a meal, eat ahead of time at home, and enjoy something small with the group. Asking three kids to share an order of fries is . . . a no go. I would likely have considered feeding my kids ahead of time regardless, because $40/plate restaurants don't have a lot of food that is readily enjoyable to young kids. And, hungry kids + nice restaurants don't mix well.
Basically, you are stressing wayyyyy too much about a situation that is passed. And, you could have prepared yourself & the kids more ahead of time to reduce the financial burden & more thoroughly enjoy the experience. My husband would be unimpressed if the situation had occurred with his family, and I'm pretty sure other adults did pick up on it, regardless of their tact in commenting.
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Do you budget? Not just “oh good I have money left over from paying my bills”, but “here is where this money is going”? I found that a budget helped me a LOT with permission to spend. I tell $20 per month that it can go towards something frivolous. And I don’t even feel guilty, because I know that over $3000 per month (my salary) is going toward specific and non-frivolous things.
Maybe you can start working toward a goal of saving for a fancy dinner for the family once per year. I’m talking like $500 fancy. Just budget a little every month until you reach $500, and go out to eat. But specially ear mark it for eating! Not saving. Not allowed to save it. Not even a little. You must spend it all on dinner. If you have money left over, you must have desert. If you have money left over than you must leave all the rest as a tip.
It will be an interesting challenge to see if you can even let yourself *think* about doing such a “radical” thing. If dinner is too much, then choose a different goal. Try a $100 massage. Or a gift for someone. Think of some goal that will take you a long time, and plan and prepare and budget for months. It CANNOT be saved. You must choose to spend this challenge money. And through the process try to think of a positive thought about this bunch of money every day.
Here are some example of positive thoughts you can tell yourself, even if you’re lying at first. 1) i am excited to spend this money. 2) this experience will be fun 3) this experience will be good for me 2) my spouse and kids will love this 3) it is fun to spend some money.
Etc. You can even take it as a learning opportunity for your kids. Every day, put aside $1 in this “challenge bucket” and tell them what it will be for. They can learn about saving and responsible spending this way. It might take 500 days, but if that’s how long it takes, then that’s how long it takes. It will be good mental practice for you.
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What struck me about OPs situation was 1) the sheer amount of misery over spending what is ultimately a very small sum of money and 2) forcing 3 children to share one order of fries. I am 100% sure the 5 year old at least noticed and their parent's anxiety is making an impression on a young mind.
I agree with this. OP's husband noticed and I am pretty sure the 5YO picked up on it too. Perhaps others did as well.
I also agree with others who said the agony and guilt over spending isn't healthy, especially when it begins to impact relationships. Saving is great, but being cheap and miserly isn't. I think the OP might benefit from talking to someone about this and learn to let go just a little.
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Totally agree with comment about expensive restaurant + toddlers. Whoever planned this clearly did not take the OP's family into account. We've been invited to one of these dinners before, though the person who invited us was picking up the tab so we didn't care. From what I remember my kids just ate fries that time too, because there wasn't anything else on the menu they were willing to eat.
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Do you budget? Not just “oh good I have money left over from paying my bills”, but “here is where this money is going”? I found that a budget helped me a LOT with permission to spend. I tell $20 per month that it can go towards something frivolous. And I don’t even feel guilty, because I know that over $3000 per month (my salary) is going toward specific and non-frivolous things.
Maybe you can start working toward a goal of saving for a fancy dinner for the family once per year. I’m talking like $500 fancy. Just budget a little every month until you reach $500, and go out to eat. But specially ear mark it for eating! Not saving. Not allowed to save it. Not even a little. You must spend it all on dinner. If you have money left over, you must have desert. If you have money left over than you must leave all the rest as a tip.
It will be an interesting challenge to see if you can even let yourself *think* about doing such a “radical” thing. If dinner is too much, then choose a different goal. Try a $100 massage. Or a gift for someone. Think of some goal that will take you a long time, and plan and prepare and budget for months. It CANNOT be saved. You must choose to spend this challenge money. And through the process try to think of a positive thought about this bunch of money every day.
Here are some example of positive thoughts you can tell yourself, even if you’re lying at first. 1) i am excited to spend this money. 2) this experience will be fun 3) this experience will be good for me 2) my spouse and kids will love this 3) it is fun to spend some money.
Etc. You can even take it as a learning opportunity for your kids. Every day, put aside $1 in this “challenge bucket” and tell them what it will be for. They can learn about saving and responsible spending this way. It might take 500 days, but if that’s how long it takes, then that’s how long it takes. It will be good mental practice for you.
As a person who commented having similar anxiety feelings in the past , THANK YOU, it's an interesting advice and I definitely will try it .
My issue is I can spent thousands on travel and feel great , because it's important to ME.
Expensive restaurants are not and anything I consider wasteful( regardless of cost ) I would feel resentful . That's why I look at menus beforehand if invited so I can watch mentally prepare , say goodbye to money already and somewhat enjoy the experience.
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I agree with others. Therapy to address the anxiety will be a big help. It's good to save, but this is something else. You said you were hungry, and you made yourself hold off eating. That added a lot to the resentment. And making three kids share one order of fries is not good. I would also apologize to the in-law celebrating their milestone birthday. It was probably more noticeable than you might think. Definitely check the restaurant menus before agreeing to go.
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WTF with all the therapy recommendations???
It’s perfectly normal to feel anxious when your feel locked into making choices that don’t align with your values.
You did your best to follow your values, you didnt make a scene of it, and you realised you didn’t enjoy the situation. That’s all fine and normal. Give yourself a pat on the back.
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WTF with all the therapy recommendations???
Did you read their posts?
I feel nauseous when I am in these situations. I get so upset and sacrifice by not eating or not participating.
It’s maybe a bit similar to an eating disorder where the person is proud that they are skinny but I also know that it’s obsessive.
I could only go to the therapist a few times because I thought it was too expensive.
There is a huge difference between disliking spending money and being so anxious about spending money it makes them "nauseous."
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When I had just graduated from college, I got the “crazy” idea to save half my income. Because of this, I questioned every expense to the point that I wouldn’t go out with friends for a beer because I didn’t want to spend any money I didn have to. I soon realized that it was sort f miserable to live that way, but I was still having trouble letting go of the money. I overcame this by budgeting some money every month for frivolous fun with friends. I held it in cash and limited myself to spending that amount. Once it was gone, then I had to wait until the next month.
Could you do something like this to give yourself permission to enjoy some of the fun things that money can bring into your life?
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WTF with all the therapy recommendations???
Did you read their posts?
I feel nauseous when I am in these situations. I get so upset and sacrifice by not eating or not participating.
It’s maybe a bit similar to an eating disorder where the person is proud that they are skinny but I also know that it’s obsessive.
I could only go to the therapist a few times because I thought it was too expensive.
There is a huge difference between disliking spending money and being so anxious about spending money it makes them "nauseous."
100% agree. Chrometophobia (fear of spending) is a debilitating condition and should be treated by a mental health professional before it gets worse. Today she thinks therapy is too expensive, tomorrow she might decide she can stitch up her child's laceration at home to save on doctor bills. In the meantime she is bleeding money because she's afraid to invest wisely. And therapy is the wisest investment she could make right now.
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Insurance usually covers a portion of therapy. This is not normal behavior and neither is the extreme fear of investing. You don’t want to pass this onto your children.
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WTF with all the therapy recommendations???
Did you read their posts?
I feel nauseous when I am in these situations. I get so upset and sacrifice by not eating or not participating.
It’s maybe a bit similar to an eating disorder where the person is proud that they are skinny but I also know that it’s obsessive.
I could only go to the therapist a few times because I thought it was too expensive.
There is a huge difference between disliking spending money and being so anxious about spending money it makes them "nauseous."
I disagree, the idea of having to work another 15+ years at a job that stressed me out and severely impacted my health, because I was trapped in monthly expenses forced on me by others (including things like a family dinner commitment)... and a single income for a family of 4 with young kids.... THAT is what made me nauseous.
The fact that it would spill over a bit into "woe is me, what am I going to do?" when I was forced to spend my monthly savings on something i did not want / enjoy (and when your budget is tight, one family birthday dinner out for parents could be my entire monthly savings)... I don't think that is crazy at all.
But it does need to change -- and OP needs to have a bit of money to spend on things that enhance family togetherness, a monthly budget. It may not cover family birthday dinners at fancy restaurants, but should cover something, and there should be some joy in those things.
Personally, I am not sure what is going on with the CD / no risk to the money angle, because I was more afraid of NOT making an investment grow over the long haul. But the readers here don't really think wanting/needing to invest conservatively is a reason for THERAPY, do you?
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OP here! Thank you for all the replies!! Some of the advice was really interesting. I know a lot of people are telling me to go to therapy and I do think I have a problem, but I also don’t think a normal therapist could give good advice since they wouldn’t understand my FIRE goals.
I think a reason why I’m a miser is because we haven’t reached FI. If I can just make it though the next recession by staying conservative, then I’ll change to 100% S&P 500, reach FI and never worry again! I know that it is wrong to be so conservative, but I can’t shake this feeling that a recession (-40%) is (+10%) away and right now I’m getting +3% which isn’t great, but better than the statistics of a recession now that the bond yield inverted. I might put a little more into the S&P 500 now... because I do see your point that it’s the right thing to do.
I’m a stay at home mom with 3 kids. We need to move for better public schools either this summer or next year. Having this unknown about needing to buy a new house also makes me conservative. I also think I’m more conservative because I don’t work, so my “income” is money saved. I’m really proud of it.
I will try to live in the moment more. I will also try not to suffer from tiny detail exaggeration syndrome... about money! One thing I realized about myself is that I find a lot of purpose in saving money, so I don’t know why I worry at all about running out. If I was 85 and found myself without money I would be so happy that finally my skills were needed! At the same time I don’t want my kids to feel that we were cheap in their childhood. So maybe I should have more faith. Spend more now and don’t worry about the future. A worst case scenario at 85 might be enjoyable, but 3 kids requires more spending now.
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Insurance usually covers a portion of therapy. This is not normal behavior and neither is the extreme fear of investing. You don’t want to pass this onto your children.
Our insurance doesn’t cover anything until we reach our deductible. It’s $65 at the place I was going. You guys have given me better advice here. Thank you!
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I will try to live in the moment more. I will also try not to suffer from tiny detail exaggeration syndrome... about money! One thing I realized about myself is that I find a lot of purpose in saving money, so I don’t know why I worry at all about running out. If I was 85 and found myself without money I would be so happy that finally my skills were needed! At the same time I don’t want my kids to feel that we were cheap in their childhood. So maybe I should have more faith. Spend more now and don’t worry about the future. A worst case scenario at 85 might be enjoyable, but 3 kids requires more spending now.
^ @Lago, this is really insightful!
I think a reason why I’m a miser is because we haven’t reached FI. If I can just make it though the next recession by staying conservative, then I’ll change to 100% S&P 500, reach FI and never worry again! I know that it is wrong to be so conservative, but I can’t shake this feeling that a recession (-40%) is (+10%) away and right now I’m getting +3% which isn’t great, but better than the statistics of a recession now that the bond yield inverted. I might put a little more into the S&P 500 now... because I do see your point that it’s the right thing to do.
The mind is a complex organ. The components that do logic often serve the emotional parts. The "logic" part is so creative that it can find a "reason" to fit almost any emotional conclusion.
I think the comments about having nearly 100% cash now nearly 100% stock later are a strong example of this. It looks like your logic section is well aware that stocks are needed, but the fear section is requiring you to delay this until "later".
The whole point of investing a significant portion in stocks is that having a significant portion of stocks is useful in both the accumulation phase as well as FIRE, and is safe if you hold that portion consistently.
Logically if you are emotionally able to do so, you should invest in stock now. However if you would sell once a decline starts, I would not advocate buying now, except in small practice doses of maybe $1000/month. Instead, I strongly join the group urging you to get counseling.
I also don’t think a normal therapist could give good advice since they wouldn’t understand my FIRE goals.
A therapist doesn't give you advice, they professionally assist you in learning to experience your emotions differently so that you can live a healthier life. They may give you advice during that process, but only as a tool in service of the larger goal of improving your emotional health. Any financial advice they give is for emotional development purposes only. They are not fiduciaries and are not required to have financial expertise.
Get therapy for the emotions. You will still be able to make your own decisions about FIRE. You'll be able to make them better when your fears and remorse and so on occupy less brain space.
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Read this story and then just invest as you earn money and stop worrying about timing: https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2014/02/worlds-worst-market-timer/
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I think a reason why I’m a miser is because we haven’t reached FI. If I can just make it though the next recession by staying conservative, then I’ll change to 100% S&P 500, reach FI and never worry again! I know that it is wrong to be so conservative, but I can’t shake this feeling that a recession (-40%) is (+10%) away and right now I’m getting +3% which isn’t great, but better than the statistics of a recession now that the bond yield inverted.
So, I understand wanting to do this, but what you're describing is nearly impossible to pull off. Your feelings are a terrible method to invest on. 100% bonds/cash is not right for you at any time. 100% stocks is not right for you at any time. Stop fooling yourself that you're a market expert who can pull off a masterful coup and outsmart the rest of the investing populace, knowing when to jump in and out of the stock market. (By the way, even people who could reasonably be termed 'market experts' cannot do what you describe; it's well-documented). You should be picking an asset allocation that combines stocks and fixed income in a static ratio that does not sway with your emotions, rebalancing automatically when your allocation gets off of its target.
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I think a reason why I’m a miser is because we haven’t reached FI.
Hey @Lago, sounds like you're struggling, but that you're attempting to relieve, or at least understand the nature of your struggle through self reflection. A true tenet of Mustachinaism, for which you should be applauded! But I do think you could spend more time pondering what motivations are drawing you towards miserliness. The quoted reason is very shallow. It's akin to saying a hoarder lives in garbage because they don't know what to throw away. Or an alcoholic drinks because they desire the state of drunkenness. Both statements are objectively true, but there's obviously deeper reasons driving the hoarder and the alcoholic towards maladaptive behaviour.
If you continue with this shallow reasoning behind your miserliness, you'll reach FI and realize that FI was never the issue to begin with. You'll be rich for sure, but you'll still be anxious and beaten down by your own brain. I also suggest therapy, and I can think of a few ways to distance yourself from the cost long enough to see if the therapeutic relationship is helping you. Or, you can therapize yourself. The book by Dr. David Burns Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy (https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-New-Mood-Therapy-ebook/dp/B009UW5X4C/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=the+feeling+good+handbook&qid=1555031918&s=gateway&sr=8-2), is a crash course on using Cognitive Behavioural Therapy on yourself. It can be had on Amazon Kindle for $1.99.
Reading and implementing that book kept me from killing myself, which is pretty good value for $1.99, eh? A bargain, even.
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I can’t shake this feeling that a recession (-40%) is (+10%) away
What if the market only drops 30%? Will you hold out on buying in because you think it's on the way to 40%? You didn't buy when it dropped 20% in December.
What if the market goes up 70% in the next four years? Then a 40% drop wouldn't even get us back to today's numbers. The stock market went up 145% in the four years leading up to the 1929 crash. And 389% in the eight years before the crash (that's 22% per year).
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And who cares if it goes down 30%? We are investing for the next 50+ years. Sure, it would suck temporarily to see the numbers on the screen go down, but it doesn’t break early retirement success in the long term. What does break a portfolio is if it isn’t invested in the first place. That is like you’ve picked the guaranteed losing hand.
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OP, I must say I really identify with you, so thank you so much for posting this. And everyone thanks for chiming in, it is a wake up call!
We also have 2 young kids. Both DH and I work, but he makes 50% more than I do, partly because I passed on promotions so I can spend more time with the kids, and I feel like between doing that and watching my spending somehow help "equalize" on the earning's end. We are also looking to buy a new(def more expensive) house in a better school district, during the next who knows when crash.
We make a good sum by any measure, and save a lot of take home income, but still I find myself lingering in the grocery store isles debating should I buy item A to save $1.50 over really preferred item B, or delaying inevitable repairs because it causes a good chunk upfront (if there is no safety concerns, more of inconvenience). I don't skimp when we do go to restaurants because we LOVE food, or buying high quality or fancy food to cook at home because it brings me joy and I firmly believe "you are what you eat". But I pinch my pennies on pretty much everything else, and feel the pain of "overspend" even after the decision/action is made/complete.
I feel ashamed to admit that half our money just park in the bank, "waiting" for the "next big crash", it would have been way more than half if not because of 401K and other investments made earlier on. Or we would have breeze through our FI numbers and some a year ago. Now it almost feels like I am "stuck", the stock market has gone so high, somewhere in my lizard brain if feels like we will lose big if I just "invest and forget it", while my more developed part of brain knows that's untrue if the investment horizon is sufficiently long. And of course with this mentality I missed out on the Dec 2018 buying opportunity because it is "ONLY" 20% drop.
And thank you Sailor Sam for pointing out the issue is deeper than that. We are less than 1 year away from FI number where we can both quit for good, even with all the cash hoarding instead of investment. Plus DH has no intention to stop anytime soon. But I STILL feel like we don't have enough, worrying something might go very wrong, and constantly blame myself for parking the money in the bank but too afraid to throw it into the index fund right now. The fear is real, despite my xls says otherwise. OP, just want you to know, at least in our case, getting this close to FI did not help, on the contrary it actually hinder my ability to invest because I fell like I am about to loss a good chunk of income. So again, the issue is deeper than that.
Just ordered that New mood therapy book Sailor Sam recommended, see if that helps. If not, I am heading the way of therapist. Living with fear and anxiety, especially imagined ones, is not a good way to live. What's the point with all this money if I feel miserable!
Thanks again everyone
OP here! Thank you for all the replies!! Some of the advice was really interesting. I know a lot of people are telling me to go to therapy and I do think I have a problem, but I also don’t think a normal therapist could give good advice since they wouldn’t understand my FIRE goals.
I think a reason why I’m a miser is because we haven’t reached FI. If I can just make it though the next recession by staying conservative, then I’ll change to 100% S&P 500, reach FI and never worry again! I know that it is wrong to be so conservative, but I can’t shake this feeling that a recession (-40%) is (+10%) away and right now I’m getting +3% which isn’t great, but better than the statistics of a recession now that the bond yield inverted. I might put a little more into the S&P 500 now... because I do see your point that it’s the right thing to do.
I’m a stay at home mom with 3 kids. We need to move for better public schools either this summer or next year. Having this unknown about needing to buy a new house also makes me conservative. I also think I’m more conservative because I don’t work, so my “income” is money saved. I’m really proud of it.
I will try to live in the moment more. I will also try not to suffer from tiny detail exaggeration syndrome... about money! One thing I realized about myself is that I find a lot of purpose in saving money, so I don’t know why I worry at all about running out. If I was 85 and found myself without money I would be so happy that finally my skills were needed! At the same time I don’t want my kids to feel that we were cheap in their childhood. So maybe I should have more faith. Spend more now and don’t worry about the future. A worst case scenario at 85 might be enjoyable, but 3 kids requires more spending now.
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There are some great replies in this thread, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned that there is an MMM article on this exact subject (or nearly so).
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/05/29/give-yourself-the-gift-of-not-worrying-about-money/