Author Topic: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?  (Read 4451 times)

StockBeard

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Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« on: August 06, 2017, 11:37:44 PM »
TL;DR: I plan to leave my company in 1 to 2 years. How do I build a "development plan" with my manager that is useful for me (and for the company if possible), and should I admit that I plan to leave in order for this process to be useful?


I'm one or two years away from RE.
As part of my FIRE plan I recently joined a team where I can have a reasonably meaningful role while still relaxing a little bit compared to my former team.

Today my manager told me he wants me to work on my IDP, my individual development plan. He basically wants me to think about where I'll be in 3 years, and also in 6 years.
He's dangling the carrot of a promotion in 3 years (I was promoted last year so a promotion in the next 2 years sounds unrealistic) with this plan, basically telling me I need to visualize this promotion so I can work on a set of milestones to achieve the goal.

Obviously, I don't really care. However, I'm wondering if there could be something in it for me. Like, is there an actual path in the next 1 or 2 years that could help me grow as a person (bonus points if it's helpful in RE) while still helping the company?

For example, I could fantasize about growing skills in Finance or tax, maybe, I don't know.

The thing is, as I thought about ways to make this process useful for me, I was wondering if I should be (slightly) honest with my manager and tell him (for example) that I see myself as owning my own business in 5 years, for example.

I can see many ways in how admitting that I plan to leave the company in 5 years (let alone 1) is not going to help me at all, but lying about it will also confirm to my hierarchy that building skills in this job (skills which will not necessarily be useful post RE) is what I want.

How would you approach the situation?

powskier

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 11:59:39 PM »
Lie. It is a standard part of social lubrication that keeps the world and work going, we all do it. e.g " how you doing? Fine"

Within the next year you could change your mind, you could get axed or have a miserable year if you mention that your IDP involves not setting an alarm clock and doing whatever the hell you want.

COEE

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2017, 12:03:02 AM »
I'd lie on this one.  IMHO, it's no big deal to tell them what they want to hear in this case.  You have NOTHING to gain by making them aware of your early departure plans.

VoteCthulu

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2017, 12:18:47 AM »
I wouldn't lie, because plans are just plans. Perhaps this isn't your 1st or 2nd choice, but think about what you would want to do if 6 months before you planned to retire the stock market crashed 90%. Call it plan C or H or whatever, just don't choose to share that bit with your company as you write it.

skip207

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2017, 01:30:14 AM »
NEVER EVER tell your manager you intend to leave until you have a signed contract from your next employer.  Trust me I have seen many people do it over the years because they think its the right thing to do but its not.  The fact they want you to do a PDP means they want to see your progression plans etc.  If it were me I would use it to get more training that may help you at your next place.  Telling your boss you plan to leave in over a year is just madness and wont end well. 

MommyCake

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 03:42:51 AM »
I would write the plan AS IF I were going to stay.  I have to do an annual IDP at my job, and nothing on there ever actually happens, with the exception of formal education (grad school).  Write down what you would do to excel if you were to stay.  Then forget about it, and I'm sure your supervisor will too.

steviesterno

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2017, 05:49:29 AM »
write it as if you could/would stay? maybe focus on some areas of stuff that you would like to grow with personally, like advanced certifications, continued education, etc. that way when you hit FIRE you can walk away, or if your goals/life changes you still have gainful employment.

Dicey

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2017, 08:21:17 AM »
I would write the plan AS IF I were going to stay.  I have to do an annual IDP at my job, and nothing on there ever actually happens, with the exception of formal education (grad school).  Write down what you would do to excel if you were to stay.  Then forget about it, and I'm sure your supervisor will too.
I think IDPs are tools that employers employ in hopes of keeping you there. It's perfectly okay to help them preserve their delusions.
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trollwithamustache

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2017, 09:12:49 AM »
Play the game. If you will stay 2 years, you are working this document to angle for at least one raise. 

RobFIRE

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 09:19:00 AM »
I would not tell them of your plans to leave. No likely upside for you, risk of downsides. Unless you want to be forced out/marginalized/made redundant.

I'd either do one of two things:

* try to create a plan that develops some skills you are interested in / some other angle to it. For example, say you want to focus on personal productivity so ask for some training on self-management/mindfulness, and/or general technical things like advanced Excel use. See if, as part of your drive for personal productivity, which you can say is a driver towards your next promotion to take on more responsibility, you would like to trial flexible/remote working for part of the time/week to see if it improves your productivity and hence adds value to the business...you might get some flexible working out of your last couple of years at the company.

* play along as normal saying how you will strive towards your next promotion, fill in the forms, ignore them thereafter.

If the first doesn't work/just isn't possible, then fall back to the second option.

RedmondStash

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 09:33:30 AM »
I would write the plan AS IF I were going to stay.  I have to do an annual IDP at my job, and nothing on there ever actually happens, with the exception of formal education (grad school).  Write down what you would do to excel if you were to stay.  Then forget about it, and I'm sure your supervisor will too.
I think IDPs are tools that employers employ in hopes of keeping you there. It's perfectly okay to help them preserve their delusions.

+1

There's no percentage in it for you for being honest about wanting to leave in the next 2 years. It only benefits the company, not you.

I'd take this as an opportunity to get some education or training in areas that interest you that you can at least loosely link to your current job. Other than that, just give it lip service and move on.

Samuel

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 01:23:44 PM »
I wouldn't lie, because plans are just plans. Perhaps this isn't your 1st or 2nd choice, but think about what you would want to do if 6 months before you planned to retire the stock market crashed 90%. Call it plan C or H or whatever, just don't choose to share that bit with your company as you write it.

Exactly. Mentally add "If I stay at this company" and make the plan they want. That's not lying to me, it's a conditional answer.

Lis

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2017, 01:27:28 PM »
Straddle the fence between lying and telling the truth. Since you were recently promoted, I don't think there's any issue in admitting you're still learning/getting comfortable in your new role and your focus has been on perfecting what you're doing now, and you haven't been thinking about advancing yet. If getting two promotions in 3-4 years is rare/unheard of in your firm or industry, I don't think that would sound out of place. Not sure if you could use this excuse for 2-3 more years, but it might cut you a break.

SuperSecretName

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2017, 01:47:52 PM »
Gotta hedge your bets and play along.  You don't know for sure what they next few years are going to bring.  You might end up needing the job after all.

I'd give it serious consideration and plan like you will be staying.  If FIRE plans get delayed, you want to be in the best position possible.

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2017, 01:54:10 PM »
I would write the plan AS IF I were going to stay. 

For all you know things might change and you might want/need to stay.  Until you are ready to depart, or ready to prepare everyone for your eventual departure (couple weeks/ few months not 1-2 years) just maintain the mindset that you are on the career path.

It's not lying really.  Your boss wants you to envision your next 3 years at the company.  So assume you will be at the company for 3 more years and show him what it's looking like.  He isn't asking for a retirement date.
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alexpkeaton

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2017, 02:05:34 PM »
+1 to answering as though you were to stay. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but if you do then this is what you'll work on.

However, I'd ask yourself how valuable you are to your company? If your boss thought you might be looking to leave, would he try to convince you to stay with a raise or bonus? Or would he just fire you on the spot instead?

thx712517

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2017, 02:53:44 PM »
I was subjected to one of these bullshit loyalty tests right before my manager decided to make my life hell and force me out. I think it's a fishing expedition on their part looking for something to use against you. Tell them something in corporate speak as if you'll be there and enjoy telling them you've retired on the day it happens.

StockBeard

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 02:02:26 AM »
Thanks. Seems like the answers are pretty clear and unanimous :)

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 10:25:20 AM »
I would build that plan based on "Plan Z" which would be in the unlikely case you work at this company until you are 67 years old.

It's just all paperwork BS that various folks have to fill out in order to check it off their list.

Tetsuya Hondo

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 10:30:21 AM »
Always choose the option that gives you more options.

If you tell them you're leaving, your future self will have fewer options.

toodleoo

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2017, 10:47:28 AM »
Always choose the option that gives you more options.

If you tell them you're leaving, your future self will have fewer options.

This is excellent advice. Agree 100%.
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Vertical Mode

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2017, 11:38:31 AM »
I would not tell them of your plans to leave. No likely upside for you, risk of downsides. Unless you want to be forced out/marginalized/made redundant.

I'd either do one of two things:

* try to create a plan that develops some skills you are interested in / some other angle to it. For example, say you want to focus on personal productivity so ask for some training on self-management/mindfulness, and/or general technical things like advanced Excel use. See if, as part of your drive for personal productivity, which you can say is a driver towards your next promotion to take on more responsibility, you would like to trial flexible/remote working for part of the time/week to see if it improves your productivity and hence adds value to the business...you might get some flexible working out of your last couple of years at the company.

* play along as normal saying how you will strive towards your next promotion, fill in the forms, ignore them thereafter.

If the first doesn't work/just isn't possible, then fall back to the second option.

I like these ideas. Frame the idea as a productivity experiment/grooming yourself for a future management role, while also gaining some flexibility and agency over your time. This could open the door to go part-time down the road, or give you some flexibility in managing how you transition OUT of the workplace. That would be an opportunity to test the waters of FIRE and make sure you're both financially and mentally prepared to pull the ripcord. Call it a chance to practice the transition from the saver/accumulation mentality to actually drawing off your 'stache.
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koshtra

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2017, 11:41:17 AM »
Yeah, you just lie through your teeth. God, I hope I never work again for anyone who asks for those things.

Goldielocks

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2017, 12:13:31 PM »
I would write the plan AS IF I were going to stay.  I have to do an annual IDP at my job, and nothing on there ever actually happens, with the exception of formal education (grad school).  Write down what you would do to excel if you were to stay.  Then forget about it, and I'm sure your supervisor will too.
I think IDPs are tools that employers employ in hopes of keeping you there. It's perfectly okay to help them preserve their delusions.

HAHA   This!   You can bet dollars to donuts your boss doesn't want to be there.

This is supposed to be a perk for you, and you AREN'T leaving in 1-2 years until you give official notice.  Heck, what if you got a dream promotion to a newly formed department that does exactly the type of thing you dreamed of getting involved in?   


StudentEngineer

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2017, 12:16:47 PM »
Always choose the option that gives you more options.

If you tell them you're leaving, your future self will have fewer options.

That's a really great piece of advice.
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jlcnuke

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2017, 12:42:47 PM »
TL;DR: I plan to leave my company in 1 to 2 years. How do I build a "development plan" with my manager that is useful for me (and for the company if possible), and should I admit that I plan to leave in order for this process to be useful?


I'm one or two years away from RE.
As part of my FIRE plan I recently joined a team where I can have a reasonably meaningful role while still relaxing a little bit compared to my former team.

Today my manager told me he wants me to work on my IDP, my individual development plan. He basically wants me to think about where I'll be in 3 years, and also in 6 years.
He's dangling the carrot of a promotion in 3 years (I was promoted last year so a promotion in the next 2 years sounds unrealistic) with this plan, basically telling me I need to visualize this promotion so I can work on a set of milestones to achieve the goal.

Obviously, I don't really care. However, I'm wondering if there could be something in it for me. Like, is there an actual path in the next 1 or 2 years that could help me grow as a person (bonus points if it's helpful in RE) while still helping the company?

For example, I could fantasize about growing skills in Finance or tax, maybe, I don't know.

The thing is, as I thought about ways to make this process useful for me, I was wondering if I should be (slightly) honest with my manager and tell him (for example) that I see myself as owning my own business in 5 years, for example.

I can see many ways in how admitting that I plan to leave the company in 5 years (let alone 1) is not going to help me at all, but lying about it will also confirm to my hierarchy that building skills in this job (skills which will not necessarily be useful post RE) is what I want.

How would you approach the situation?

In my position, I hold zero fear of getting laid off due to letting my boss/coworkers know about my FIRE possibilities (I'm still a ways out and the subject has been discussed). Of course, I do have a good friendship with my boss (known him for 17 years, brought him into the company about 6 years ago) so it's probably a different situation than yours. That said, many places have such "goals" solely because HR makes them and no one really cares what's written down... if you're in that camp, just write some b.s. down...

If you think they'd support your true goal, be honest and don't make them waste years grooming you for another role just to quit on them.  You may find out 6 months in that you need to go back to work and burning bridges is almost never a good idea.

You really have to feel out the environment yourself.
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wordnerd

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2017, 01:03:22 PM »
Straddle the fence between lying and telling the truth. Since you were recently promoted, I don't think there's any issue in admitting you're still learning/getting comfortable in your new role and your focus has been on perfecting what you're doing now, and you haven't been thinking about advancing yet. If getting two promotions in 3-4 years is rare/unheard of in your firm or industry, I don't think that would sound out of place. Not sure if you could use this excuse for 2-3 more years, but it might cut you a break.

This is exactly what I used for my IDP last month since I plan to leave in a year or so.
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effigy98

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2017, 01:09:35 PM »
Most leads, if they think they can no longer motivate you to work hard and do what they want, will do what they can to push you out. Telling anyone at work about FI that is not a close personal friend usually ends up very negative and hurts your career if they tell the right people. FI is a concept that only a tiny minority of people will ever be able to grasp and if you question the status quo, they tend to rebel and that can lead to job loss, bad reviews, and lack of a good recommendation for any future jobs. Be careful.

What the lead is really asking for is "give me tools to motivate you so you do not become lazy, leave, or make me look bad". Reword the request in your mind like that and give them some helpful tools and you should be good.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 01:12:33 PM by effigy98 »

BTDretire

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2017, 08:42:21 AM »
 I'll give you another out. I suspect you are shooting towards a specific dollar amount before you retire.
The market is at high multiplies and could correct any day.
If it drops 20% that could delay your retirement another 3 years.
 Develop your IDP as if there is a possibility we will have a market correction.
 Because a correction is possible.

Imustacheyouaquestion

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2017, 09:27:16 AM »
This is like being asked at job interview where you see yourself in five years. There is no other answer allowable than "happily working at your company," even if everyone in the room knows that is not your real answer. In two years, just say your plans changed! I don't see what you stand to gain by letting them know you plan to leave.

GuitarStv

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2017, 09:31:28 AM »
The problem with the question is that it's asked as though the employer actually cares and wants to make your future dreams come true.  They don't.  Since they're lying with the question, I have no issue lying back to them with the answer.

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2017, 09:40:11 AM »
TL;DR: I plan to leave my company in 1 to 2 years. How do I build a "development plan" with my manager that is useful for me (and for the company if possible), and should I admit that I plan to leave in order for this process to be useful?


I can tell you what I did:  My manager (also a friend) knew I was planning on some form of early retirement at some date.  At one year prior to FIRE, I actually did exactly what you suggest.  Q: "Where do you want to be a year from now?"  A: "I plan on being retired.  How much official notice do you want and how can I help you transition?"

I am not saying this is for every situation.  My manager was (is) a friend.  Upper management in that company was an odd fickle bunch of guys that were just as likely to fire me for admitting it as they were to offer me a counter offer to stay.  Having a manager that was a friend (and had a very good rapport with VPs) was key.
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RedmondStash

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2017, 12:19:00 PM »
The problem with the question is that it's asked as though the employer actually cares and wants to make your future dreams come true.  They don't.  Since they're lying with the question, I have no issue lying back to them with the answer.

Fair point.

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2017, 01:06:27 PM »
Not entirely sure why you feel this is a "lie" to fulfill the company's request to set up an IDP.  Sure, your master plan is to retire in a couple of years, but your backup plan undoubtedly is to work longer if you feel circumstances make that wiser.   So the IDF is just part of a contingency plan to get you, like the rest of us, to retirement as soon as is practical by continuing to fulfill the company's request as part of your ongoing employment.

pbkmaine

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2017, 02:12:38 PM »
Had I been asked to write such a plan 5 years ago, I would have listed whatever skills I thought I could acquire through work that would assist me for the rest of my life. What are those skills for you?

TabbyCat

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2017, 10:03:56 PM »
I think Sheryl Sandberg got this one right - don't leave before you leave. Lean in until the day you quit. Applies equally to both genders, but in my limited experience I would say she rightly targeted the advice at women who may be a bit more likely to undercut themselves in that respect (by planning to leave in 5 years to raise kids, so they step back 5y early). You're debating stepping back 2y early. Who knows what could happen, maybe it flows into a fun 10h a week consulting gig?

aperture

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Re: Individual Development Plan - Should I lie?
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2017, 08:19:36 PM »
tl;dr - of course you should lie.