Author Topic: Immortal Investors  (Read 16035 times)

sol

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Immortal Investors
« on: June 24, 2015, 11:42:58 PM »
Some day, I think medical science will effectively cure aging.  We'll replace or rejuvinate worn out parts, regulate our genes, cure diseases.  Human lifespans are on an upward slope, and the dawning age of genetics promises to steepen it.

So what would you do differently if you expected to live to 200 or 2,000 years old?  Does it make sense to retire at 30 and hope for a few hundred years of leisure time after that?  Would you continue working, just for the challenge and opportunity to be part of something?  Would you seek additional income, so as to be able to increase your future spending?  Is it even possible to have a SWR that applies over centuries of changing economic forces?  Would we even still recognize the idea of corporate profitability in a post-scarcity world, where robots help us meet every human need and no one lives in poverty?  (And if not, does this suggest that today's paper wealth is entirely predicated on the continued existence of the impoverished?)

I suspect that I would be LESS likely to seek early retirement, if I thought I had hundreds of years of life left.  Part of the motivation to leave the rat race comes from that awareness of our own mortality, that thought that we have a limited amount of time left, coupled with a desire to enjoy it on own terms, rather than punching someone else's clock. 

Without the certainty of short human lifespans, does the notion of retirement even make sense anymore?  If your body and mind don't wear out, what's the reason for retirement?  Can we have a world full of billions of unemployed people living off of their invested assets, not contributing to society's forward progress, not innovating or discovering or building?  What happens if these "retired" folks are still doing those things in their free time, but not for money, because AI/robots have provided us with such abundance that "money" is kind of an arbitrary and outdated concept?  Does the pace of progress slow, if we're only advancing humanity as a collective retirement hobby?  What about the people who just want to watch tv forever?

We're all very focused on capital markets here.  We invest our money in financial instruments like stocks and bonds, but these are all relatively recent inventions in the history of human economies.  It wouldn't surprise me if 1000 years from now future investors considered fractional representative ownership of public companies to be kind of quaint, the way we think of a castle's treasure vault as a less-than-ideal way to store wealth.  Even real estate isn't a long term safe bet, as it has historically been taken away or given away at various points in time.  So how do you invest for a 1000 year plus time horizon?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 12:41:06 AM by sol »

marty998

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2015, 01:34:10 AM »
Someone has had a go at trying to predict when this sort of things will start to happen...

http://www.futuretimeline.net

I found it to be an interesting, and even plausible read.

Still, predicting the next 5 years is fraught with unknowns, predicting the next 500 is, well, there's no words.

Can we have a world full of billions of unemployed people living off of their invested assets, not contributing to society's forward progress, not innovating or discovering or building?  What happens if these "retired" folks are still doing those things in their free time, but not for money, because AI/robots have provided us with such abundance that "money" is kind of an arbitrary and outdated concept?  Does the pace of progress slow, if we're only advancing humanity as a collective retirement hobby?  What about the people who just want to watch tv forever?

You wonder if the robots will be better than us at driving society forward. Their not limited by human foibles like having to eat, sleep, shit and hopefully they won't eliminate us Skynet-judgement-day style.

My view is that there will always be people wanting to make a name for themselves. Not everyone is content to passively sit back and let the life pass them by - you'll always get people wanting to change the world.

mohawkbrah

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2015, 01:55:18 AM »
compound interest would make you a billionaire before your mid-life crisis ;)

gooki

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2015, 02:32:22 AM »
Or you just accept death when you run out of money.

ynotme

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2015, 03:05:26 AM »
I think I'd have a series of careers. If lifespans were so long, you wouldn't feel that you were too old to change careers or that you had already invested so much time in one path and reluctant to change. I'd work in a career till I got to the point where I felt I had done as much as I wanted to do in that field. I'd then retrain or study another field that interested me and work in that area and so on.

I'd also have periods of time off when I wanted to until inspired to do something new.

You'd have time to master a few different fields and develop the expertise to earn well. This could then fund the next career change. Rather than save as much money as early as possible, it would be more about pacing yourself and supporting yourself through your life transitions.


WoodsRun

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2015, 04:23:21 AM »
I would not exactly seek early retirement either, but I would still try to save money in my early years.

I would probably work in my first career for ten or fifteen years, save a lot of money, and then take a few years off to travel and whatever other leisure activities I think of when I have all that time off. And with enough money in the bank or investments I would think of a career change and probably go back to school and go on a different career path for another ten or fifteen years.

The next 50 or 100 years will be very exciting times because of how fast technology is advancing, and we will hit population peak in a few decades. Meaning we will start going down in numbers, I can't imagine what that means in terms of labor.

Investments should always be diverse, stocks, bonds, real estate, etc. And if financial instruments change then so be it. It won't change overnight so that will give people enough time to move away from what we have currently to whatever is offered in the future.

As the number of people who live off investments increases, services will become more expensive. That means wages will increase and that will give people incentive to start working again. I am sure there will be a healthy balance between the number of people working and the number spending time in leisure.

patrickza

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2015, 06:29:09 AM »
It wouldn't change my retirement age, and I'd love the extra free time. I would make sure that I get my spending below the runaway growth curve, imagine what all that extra time could do for you then.

GuitarStv

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2015, 07:03:34 AM »
Life is meaningful because it ends.  Birth, life, and death is a natural progression that I find great beauty in.  By stopping that cycle you're selfishly taking resources from future generations.  For me, death also acts as a great motivator to achieve something before I'm gone, and to be less miserly.  I'd rather die after 70-80 years than live for hundreds.

Even if we're assuming that quality of life doesn't change as you age (not a safe assumption based on most advances we've come up with related to longevity), I think you would still run into some problems.  The human brain isn't designed to work over the time periods you're talking about.  I don't clearly remember things from 20 years ago.  I don't know if there would be much recollection at all of things 70 or a 150 years ago.  As you age your neural plasticity is reduced . . . you become worse at learning new things.  Living forever by constantly forgetting your past while becoming unchangeable in your outlook on life seems very sad to me.

In addition to that, the world 100 - 150 years from now will be radically altered by climate change and species extinction.  It may well be a miserable place to be alive in comparison to today.  You might be very sad watching the way things will change.

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2015, 07:27:30 AM »
No way I would retire if I had a lifespan of 500-1000 years. But I sure as hell wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today. I'm working in my chosen profession because it's an efficient means to accomplishing a rapid increase in net worth. The only reason a rapid increase in net worth is appealing to me is because my time is finite, and I would like to move on to other things as soon as possible. However, by removing a sense of urgency from the equation, I would probably take a step back, work at an easy, flexible, low-paying job, take lots of time off, and study interesting things as the spirit moved me. Or ideally, I would find a job that completely inspired me, that I could feel happy to dedicate countless hours to for the advancement of humanity. I would still lead a low-cost life to remain open to new opportunities like travel, education, hobbies, rather than being completely tied to a job.

That being said, I think you're way to optimistic about the obstacles that we have to overcome in order to cure aging. I'm not even convinced that our transition off of fossil fuels in the next century will come without massive societal and economic upheavals that will hinder our ability to drive technology forward at the same pace that we've become accustomed to over the last couple hundred years. Our future may not be as science-fictiony as we would like to believe. But maybe it will. I doubt I'll be around to know!

brooklynguy

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2015, 07:39:48 AM »
At the moment, I have no response that would do justice to the original post, except to note that it's another stellar addition to sol's oeuvre (and that I guess the flattery incentive is working).  Keep the thought-provoking musings coming, sol!

dude

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2015, 07:42:45 AM »
This is the part I have the most trouble with -- "Would we even still recognize the idea of corporate profitability in a post-scarcity world"  -- I don't think human beings will survive long enough to know post-scarcity.  Indeed, all indications are that resource scarcity will increase significantly in the coming decades (at least that's what the CIA is forecasting) and life will get much harder for most of humanity (perhaps back to Hobbes' state of nature where life is "nasty, brutish and short").  I just don't have any faith that humanity will wake up and treat the planet in a sustainable manner before it's too late.  Because we sure as hell aren't now -- we're on a fast-track to oblivion at the rate we're gobbling up our natural resources, thanks to our clever technology (the same technology that many non-Malthusians expect to rescue humanity like some literal deus ex machina).

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2015, 07:54:05 AM »
^^+1

All the reading I've done about fisheries and on-land agriculture suggests we're about to get squeezed in a massive way. I don't see where post-scarcity comes in at all. If anything we're headed for a rough few centuries of resource wars until people wise up, use sustainable practices on a broad scale, and the population gets down to carrying capacity levels.

I think the current standard of living in the "first world" is absolutely predicated on the impoverishment of the third world. I try to shift my consumption (and production) as much as I can to mitigate this, but I don't think any of us can deny that. There's no way middle class spends as low as they do as a percentage of income on basic necessities going forward.

As far as the immortality thing goes, if we ever achieved it, I dunno. I think I'd be happy with my current FIRE goal of homesteading with small farm cashflow to offset investment income needs. But I think solving aging at physical and mental levels is far, far harder than any incrementalist medical technology perspective can fathom. And I question whether we should even do it, as GuitarStv suggested. Life is meant to cycle.

partgypsy

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2015, 08:10:51 AM »
Life is meaningful because it ends.  Birth, life, and death is a natural progression that I find great beauty in.  By stopping that cycle you're selfishly taking resources from future generations.  For me, death also acts as a great motivator to achieve something before I'm gone, and to be less miserly.  I'd rather die after 70-80 years than live for hundreds.

Even if we're assuming that quality of life doesn't change as you age (not a safe assumption based on most advances we've come up with related to longevity), I think you would still run into some problems.  The human brain isn't designed to work over the time periods you're talking about.  I don't clearly remember things from 20 years ago.  I don't know if there would be much recollection at all of things 70 or a 150 years ago.  As you age your neural plasticity is reduced . . . you become worse at learning new things.  Living forever by constantly forgetting your past while becoming unchangeable in your outlook on life seems very sad to me.

In addition to that, the world 100 - 150 years from now will be radically altered by climate change and species extinction.  It may well be a miserable place to be alive in comparison to today.  You might be very sad watching the way things will change.

this is my view as well. A bunch of people who think that science will solve everything, also predict or want to be the person who lives forever, or at least until 150. If it does become possible, it will only be extremely wealthy people who will be able to live those extended lives. We have already crowded out to extinction many species we share the earth with, why do we feel we now "deserve" artificially extended lifespans as well? Someone who lives longer than a normal lifespan will be taking the place, using up resources that would go to subsequent generations.  Appreciate the natural life cycle, as well as other life on this planet.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 08:14:25 AM by partgypsy »

Cathy

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2015, 08:14:35 AM »
I once knew somebody who maintained that he would live forever. He was never clear on the mechanism, but the general plan seemed to involve getting rich first, and then using those riches to fund research into immortality. I think he believes it will involve some cellular changes to stop aging. There has never been any doubt in his mind that he will live forever and he governs himself accordingly.

NorCal

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2015, 11:41:50 AM »
Quantity of life is relatively easy.  Quality of life is relatively hard.

If I could live to 200, would I even want to?  Even if you're physically solid and your mind doesn't start to slip until you're 100, that's still a century of living in a diminished mental capacity.  That doesn't appeal to me.


brooklynguy

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2015, 11:44:19 AM »
Mortality is wasted on the mortal.

forummm

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2015, 03:07:45 PM »
I've actually thought about this topic and considered including it in my FIRE plans. I don't believe we'll be immortal. But the possibility is still out there. If I was pretty confident that we would have dramatically lengthened lives, I would definitely keep working for much longer. One, because it would be a huge buffer against a much longer exposure to the risk of bad financial markets. And two, because with all the compounding, I would become insanely wealthy to a much greater degree the more unneeded assets I had working for me. The intent of all that wealth would be to do some Gates-level philanthropy.

r3dt4rget

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2015, 03:30:37 PM »
If we do develop a means to live much longer or even forever, it will be big business that only the very wealthy would be able to afford. I think you would see large corporations slowly take over as families and CEO's can live longer to carry out their plans. Wealth at the top will grow uncontrollably. Whoever invents these life-extending technologies basically has control of the entire world if you really think about it. The only thing more desirable than money is time. Even today we see that whoever has money has power, imagine if someone could sell time.

opnfld

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2015, 03:32:29 PM »
I don't think human beings will survive long enough to know post-scarcity.
All the reading I've done about fisheries and on-land agriculture suggests we're about to get squeezed in a massive way.
Stewart Brand's Long Now Foundation hosts a monthly seminar series devoted to considering issues over a very long term (10,000 years).  An interesting talk in January highlighted areas where productivity has outstripped resource usage, including apparently agriculture. http://longnow.org/seminars/02015/jan/13/nature-rebounding-land-and-ocean-sparing-through-concentrating-human-activities/ 

The podcast is always interesting http://longnow.org/seminars/podcast/


mozar

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2015, 07:49:28 PM »
It wouldn't change my FIRE plans. I could still die in an accident at 62 and immortality be invented when I would've turned 63. If people become immortal we could possibly outlive governments. And compounding is a government invention. It is not a "law of the universe." So maybe I would have to go back to work if I was still alive at 200.

forummm

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2015, 08:06:04 PM »
And compounding is a government invention.

???

Grog

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2015, 02:35:12 AM »
We're all very focused on capital markets here.  We invest our money in financial instruments like stocks and bonds, but these are all relatively recent inventions in the history of human economies.   It wouldn't surprise me if 1000 years from now future investors considered fractional representative ownership of public companies to be kind of quaint, the way we think of a castle's treasure vault as a less-than-ideal way to store wealth. 

What do you mean by this? Bond and more advanced instrument like future option used for crop price hedging have existed for at least 5000 years, in a certain way even stocks, although the real boom with stocks was with maritime exploration and printers (so around 600 years ago). Bernstein wrote a couple of fantastic book about capital and trading history, and I'm always amazed to see how history continously repeat itself. The interest rate on capital in the ancient, stable greek democracy was around 3-4%, much better then most of our countries in this century.

Some people will always be the best and the first to do something. There will be space exploration to keep us occupied. Why living a normal boring unexciting live as a no-one when you could fly away and go conquer and terra-forming your own planet (if you really are immortal?). It will be Minecraft in the real world lol

marty998

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2015, 04:02:03 AM »
And compounding is a government invention.

???

yeah. I could ask ??? too.

You have more, you multiply it by x amount, you get more.

Basic maths?

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2015, 06:00:18 AM »
I am in the school of thought that the human race is a cancer to our planet, and I doubt the human race as we know it will exist in 1000 years.

I wish it weren't so, but the way we treat the world we live in is very disappointing.

enigmaT120

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2015, 02:20:27 PM »
I'd live forever.  There's always time to change your mind later.  And I'd retire, at least from doing some stupid job I only do to make money.  I have better things to do, they just don't pay well or (in the case of timber) regularly.  I could actually watch much of my forest achieve old-growth characteristics.  I've often looked at the huge old rotting stumps around my place and wish I could have seen it before.  I would live like a Roger Zelazny character.

Here's David Bowie's contribution to the topic:

"The Supermen"

When all the world was very young
And mountain magic heavy hung
The supermen would walk in file
Guardians of a loveless isle
And gloomy browed with superfear their tragic endless lives

Could heave nor sigh
In solemn, perverse serenity, wondrous beings chained to life

Strange games they would play then
No death for the perfect men
Life rolls into one for them
So softly a supergod cries

Where all were minds in uni-thought
Power weird by mystics taught
No pain, no joy, no power too great
Colossal strength to grasp a fate
Where sad-eyed mermen tossed in slumbers

Nightmare dreams no mortal mind could hold
A man would tear his brother's flesh, a chance to die
To turn to mold.

Far out in the red-sky
Far out from the sad eyes
Strange, mad celebration
So softly a supergod cries

Far out in the red-sky
Far out from the sad eyes
Strange, mad celebration
So softly a supergod dies

Gone Fishing

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2015, 02:48:04 PM »
It would totally bankrupt SS and every Pension plan under the sun to start with!

They would have to fix the greedy/power hungry nature of (some) humans as well or there would be people quite capable of amassing power in terms that we have never seen before. Death has been our only savior in many cases.

Just as there are now, I am sure there would be people that worked centuries long careers and never could save a dime!   

One of my primary motives for ER was to spend more of my "good years" with my children and more time with parents and grandparents before their "good years" were over, so I guess I wouldn't need/want ER as much.  Part time work for life would probably work just fine.   

Conversation between two future teenagers:

"Dude, my parents are, like, so old..." 

sol

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2015, 12:22:55 AM »
Birth, life, and death is a natural progression that I find great beauty in.  By stopping that cycle you're selfishly taking resources from future generations.

You're taking resources from future generations right now. 

I'm sort of assuming that arbitrarily long lifespans will have to come with some sort of population control.  You can't have every person on earth making 100 babies, at least not sustainably.  Not even for one generation.

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For me, death also acts as a great motivator to achieve something before I'm gone, and to be less miserly.  I'd rather die after 70-80 years than live for hundreds.

You say that now, but how will you feel when you are 70 or 80?  If you still felt young, and still wanted to achieve something that wasn't quite finished, might you consider sticking around for a few more years to see it through?  If achievement is your motivation, why do you think that motivation will wane as you age?  Wouldn't it just get stronger, as you realized what else you could achieve?

Quote
I think you would still run into some problems.  The human brain isn't designed to work over the time periods you're talking about.

And wrinkled old dudes aren't designed to get three hour boners, but we have a pill for that.

My point is just that medical science moves on whether you like it or not, and people eventually learn to accept those advances as normal.  My great grandfather couldn't imagine a raging woody at age 90, and you can't imagine a razor-sharp agile mind at age 90.  Maybe you can both be proven wrong eventually.

Quote
In addition to that, the world 100 - 150 years from now will be radically altered by climate change and species extinction.  It may well be a miserable place to be alive in comparison to today.  You might be very sad watching the way things will change.

Isn't that sort of catastrophic climate change a good reason to try to keep some people around, to serve as a living reminder of the way things used to be?  We still value the memories and perspective of WWII vets, and we value them more as their numbers dwindle. 

sol

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2015, 12:28:43 AM »
by removing a sense of urgency from the equation, I would probably take a step back, work at an easy, flexible, low-paying job, take lots of time off, and study interesting things as the spirit moved me. Or ideally, I would find a job that completely inspired me, that I could feel happy to dedicate countless hours to for the advancement of humanity. I would still lead a low-cost life to remain open to new opportunities like travel, education, hobbies, rather than being completely tied to a job.

This is the sort of response I was hoping to elicit, and here's the reason why:  why is your short lifespan making you LESS likely to pursue the life you claim to want?  If you're saying that you would quit your high stress job to study interesting things, if only you had the time, then I don't understand why you would decide to keep your high stress job because you have even less time.  See what I'm saying?

If you've already identified the perfect way to spend your time if you were free of death, why aren't you doing it right now with death breathing down your neck?  You're almost out of time already, hurry up and do the things you really want to do!

sol

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2015, 12:43:44 AM »
I don't see where post-scarcity comes in at all. If anything we're headed for a rough few centuries of resource wars until people wise up

Sure, but I think we'll wise up eventually.  There's no inconsistency in believing the coming centuries will suck and believing future humans will live a thousand years.  I don't expect to live long enough to see average human lifespans exceed 100, but I'm pretty damn confident it will happen eventually.  Wealthy people already spend millions to get a few extra years at the end, so I think the profit motive is incredibly strong on this one. 

Quote
I think the current standard of living in the "first world" is absolutely predicated on the impoverishment of the third world.

Me too.  Now I'm trying to decide if in the future, first world standards can be achieved for everyone by the enslavement and impoverishment of machines, instead. 

Automation has already provided a westernized standard of living to a billion people who didn't have it even 30 years ago.  Once machines can grow all of our food, clean all of our air and water, manufacture and recycle all of our material goods, and automatically distribute anything to anywhere, the argument for persistent poverty gets pretty weak.  I've seen poverty on six continents, and I've yet to find a type that an army of semi-intelligent robots couldn't fix.

A bunch of people who think that science will solve everything, also predict or want to be the person who lives forever, or at least until 150. If it does become possible, it will only be extremely wealthy people who will be able to live those extended lives.

1.  I don't expect to live anywhere near long enough to enjoy the fruits of the coming genetics revolution.  I think the people who will benefit the most are the ones who will be designed from the ground up for it, and they're a long time from being born.

2.  Why is it a problem for only the extremely wealthy to have the benefits at first?  Only the extremely wealthy could afford the first automobiles, or televisions, or laser eye surgeries.  Of course it's the wealthy who push the boundaries, but eventually these things filter out to the rest of the population as the price drops and the availability improves.

Ferrisbueller

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2015, 04:39:20 AM »
Inflation would be a massive concern obviously over such long periods.

Personally I don't think I'd even want to live for 500 years - sounds tiring

Erica/NWEdible

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2015, 06:32:17 AM »

Q was very bored.

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Caoineag

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2015, 08:20:43 AM »
I tend to be an optimist so I think a long life span would make people, out of a selfish desire to protect themselves, seek the technology and laws to improve most of the world's problems. Space exploration would also become a necessity.

Some people would definitely lose a sense of urgency but there are people who will always seek to create so I don't think that would slow advancement. One other note, a lot of people seem to assume that most people work in important jobs. I do NOT think that is true. Most jobs do not advance the human race in any fashion.

So assume everything goes well and ignore the intermediate upheaval it would cause, accidents and wars (though I think the longer lifespans would discourage this as well) would become the major killers of people. You can still die. Even now there is no guarantee that you will live to old age. So the idea that you have forever to do what you want still seems false to me.

I am living my life the way I want to, the way I would want to, even if I had a longer guaranteed lifespan. Most people don't now, and most people still wouldn't with a longer lifespan. It really doesn't change things in the long run (though in the short run it would be extreme chaos).

As to the financials, I am quite sure I would go through a variety of jobs, still save for the in between times and so I didn't require a job which is what I am doing now. I suspect I will have a variety of projects going through "retirement" depending on my desires. Even in our current lifetimes, we can count on having to adapt to all sorts of things we didn't see coming, just ask the previous generation if they were anticipating the changes they saw in their lifetimes.

This is why being flexible and willing to learn and adapt is so extremely important.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2015, 09:43:31 AM »
More generally, this is one of the perennial topics for Science Fiction (and some fantasy).  I can think of several authors who incorporate it into their time lines.  It does have all sorts of social implications.

Of course what I really liked was Lois McMaster Bujold's uterine replicator.  She looks at all the different social possibilities that creates.  After all, if you are 150 and your ovaries shut down 100 years ago, it doesn't change the population curve much.  On the other hand, if you have your first child at 100, that does change things.

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2015, 08:56:40 PM »
Quote
Quote from: mozar on June 25, 2015, 07:49:28 PM
And compounding is a government invention.

Quote
???

I might of misunderstood, because I'm not good at math, but in Islam you are not allowed to make money off of money. So no compound interest. It's unlikely (extremely unlikely) that Islam is going to replace Christianity as the main religion in the USA, but its something to think about, that different governments do things in different ways.

And to answer the question being immortal doesn't mean that my boss will stop being an idiot.

clifp

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2015, 09:15:03 PM »
Quote
Quote from: mozar on June 25, 2015, 07:49:28 PM
And compounding is a government invention.

Quote
???

I might of misunderstood, because I'm not good at math, but in Islam you are not allowed to make money off of money. So no compound interest. It's unlikely (extremely unlikely) that Islam is going to replace Christianity as the main religion in the USA, but its something to think about, that different governments do things in different ways.

And to answer the question being immortal doesn't mean that my boss will stop being an idiot.

I don't know Islam is the fastest growing major religion both in the world and in the US. It is on track to replace Christianity as the world's largest religion by 2050, I am not sure what the date is in the US 

They have found creative ways around the no charging of interest rule.  I have a banker friend that spend many years working with the folks in Qatar to figure out how to invest their billions.

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2015, 05:28:32 AM »
Quote
Quote from: mozar on June 25, 2015, 07:49:28 PM
And compounding is a government invention.

Quote
???

I might of misunderstood, because I'm not good at math, but in Islam you are not allowed to make money off of money. So no compound interest. It's unlikely (extremely unlikely) that Islam is going to replace Christianity as the main religion in the USA, but its something to think about, that different governments do things in different ways.

And to answer the question being immortal doesn't mean that my boss will stop being an idiot.

I don't know Islam is the fastest growing major religion both in the world and in the US. It is on track to replace Christianity as the world's largest religion by 2050, I am not sure what the date is in the US 

They have found creative ways around the no charging of interest rule.  I have a banker friend that spend many years working with the folks in Qatar to figure out how to invest their billions.

So interest is not a government invention. One particular religion just "prohibits" it. And even that prohibition is easily gotten around. I heard an interview with a Muslim investor and he talked about all the different ways they can still invest.

And don't scare people about Islam replacing Christianity as the biggest religion in the US. We have enough nutters here already scared about that and passing goofy (and unconstitutional) laws to restrict it.

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2015, 01:46:00 PM »
I don't think most people here are scared of Islam taking over Christianity.

One religion prohibits it, which means that several governments do, which was my point.
So wealthy people always figure out how to get around governments, which is an interesting point. And answers my original question: what happens when governments change? Rich people get around it, the poor and middle class are screwed and immortality will just entrench class differences.
I'm feeling foamy today :-)

forummm

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2015, 02:28:03 PM »
Understood. For future reference, 'some governments banning a practice' is not equal to 'government inventing a practice'. Hence the confusion.

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2015, 03:44:06 PM »
Nothing would change for me.

I'd still FIRE today, I'd still do the activities I have planned, learn the things I'm planning on learning, etc.

It'd give me more time to go more in-depth on things, and I could plan projects that have much longer payoffs (planting trees, as a metaphor), but nothing would substantially change.

If anything that idea of the extra longevity reinforces what I'm doing now is the right thing.
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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2015, 03:55:35 PM »
I'd still FIRE. This would just expand the future options. With that many lifetimes ahead of you the freedom is still precious in my mind. So I'd still do what I want, just more of it, or as Rebs put it more longevity based projects.

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2015, 09:04:00 AM »
Complete FI would probably get very hard as I would imagine the tax system would almost certainly swap over to a wealth tax as opposed to an income tax. I would also imagine that expected real return from investments would go down.

As for personal changes, I think the main one would be wanting to spend more focus on things that improve humanity. There's a few different ideas of companies/startups/etc that I would throw a lot of effort into but I don't care 'enough' to use up years of life energy and throw my ability to FIRE at risk. Instead, I'm focused on a new company that is vastly better than being an employee but still should be fairly reliable income and plan to pursue those things once I have FI locked in.

I'd also be a lot less likely to engage in behavior with a higher risk of death.

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2015, 09:18:02 AM »
In 1981 I predicted out of the blue to my Psych professor that death would no longer be a certainty for our generation.

People after class called me aside and wanted to know what the hell I was talking about.  They seemed to think me a bit crazy.

Well it appears that reality will come fairly soon.   Although,  I personally may not make the cutoff, I am certain there is a high probability that everyone reading this will have the opportunity for essentially eternal life by either an upload or biological regeneration.   

So it is really more than an academic question, but more of a practical question of how this will be dealt with.   

And yeah,  eternity living as a super computer really seems pretty freaking boring to me.   

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2015, 12:57:53 PM »
I'd very much like to live forever, although...

I don't remember where I came across this, but I recall reading something that statistically speaking if death by natural causes or any form of illness or disease were eradicated, then the average person would live ~450-500 years before a 'unnatural' death befell them, (car accident, fire, murder, all those other horrifying ways to go suddenly and tragically).

We might be able to eliminate aging and even rapidly advance medical technology to the point where trauma centers are more science fiction than current-modern day fact, but people will still die, and when you take natural causes out of the picture it only leaves tragic ways to go, or potentially peaceful consenting suicide if someone decides they've had 'enough'.

Very interesting thread.

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2015, 01:39:00 PM »
I'd very much like to live forever, although...

Well let's not get carried away.  I think it would probably suck to float through the cold emptiness of space as the universe experiences entropic heat death.  After all of the stars burn out and every black hole has evaporated, when everything and everyone you ever knew is long since gone because no solid matter remains, and the universe is ablaze with nothing but ionizing background radiation, I think having the option to join the rest of creation in oblivion would be very attractive.

Forever is a big word.

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2015, 02:47:46 PM »
I'd very much like to live forever, although...

Well let's not get carried away.  I think it would probably suck to float through the cold emptiness of space as the universe experiences entropic heat death.  After all of the stars burn out and every black hole has evaporated, when everything and everyone you ever knew is long since gone because no solid matter remains, and the universe is ablaze with nothing but ionizing background radiation, I think having the option to join the rest of creation in oblivion would be very attractive.

Forever is a big word.
well except we would become transuniverse entities able to time travel and generate any reality we desire.  Think of it more like being a God.     At some point we would shed our biological constraints for digital quantum virtual reality, more real than our current situation.

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2015, 02:50:07 PM »
I'd very much like to live forever, although...

Well let's not get carried away.  I think it would probably suck to float through the cold emptiness of space as the universe experiences entropic heat death.  After all of the stars burn out and every black hole has evaporated, when everything and everyone you ever knew is long since gone because no solid matter remains, and the universe is ablaze with nothing but ionizing background radiation, I think having the option to join the rest of creation in oblivion would be very attractive.

Forever is a big word.
well except we would become transuniverse entities able to time travel and generate any reality we desire.  Think of it more like being a God.     At some point we would shed our biological constraints for digital quantum virtual reality, more real than our current situation.

If we as mortal beings somehow became immortal--wouldn't there be a way to turn off the lights if we no longer wanted to be forever?

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2015, 03:33:33 PM »
The thing about immortality as a preserve of the 'rich' is that we are talking about a lot of time passing and technology.  The two together tend to shift an exclusive and rare thing into widespread use pretty quickly.

Computers are the obvious example.  In a few decades they went from monstrously expensive, rare and exclusive items to massively better, more powerful and ubiquitous items that are in the pockets of most people.

Any new technology will go through the initial phase of 'exclusivity' where a few hyperrich types get it.  But let a couple decades go past and sooner or later someone will mass produce it, or the rest of us will demand it outright. 

I think there is an interesting SF story in this concept - where most humans spend a period of their lives 'working' to accumulate a nest egg, then spend the next few/several centuries living off of it.  I doubt many people would just become couch potatoes - though I'm sure some would.  It would be interesting to see what would happen when the majority of people were not living a 9-5 working life (or preparing for/recovering from such a life).

That said, I suspect a lot of upheaval would happen first until it settled into a new pattern - perhaps a life would follow a Grow up - Learn - work to accumulate your nestegg - 'retire' to learn and work on new things without concern for money.

Of course, real estate values would become much more serious.  It's one thing to buy a house for a few decades, another to buy one that you might live in for a few centuries. 

sol

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2015, 03:46:02 PM »
]
I think there is an interesting SF story in this concept - where most humans spend a period of their lives 'working' to accumulate a nest egg, then spend the next few/several centuries living off of it... perhaps a life would follow a Grow up - Learn - work to accumulate your nestegg - 'retire' to learn and work on new things without concern for money.

This model reminds me of the way countries like Israel handle mandatory military service.  You can do whatever you like for the rest of your life, but The State owns this little portion of your early life and they're going to put you to work in support of everyone else during that time.

In a world where all basic needs are met by machines, jobs that require human labor are scarce, and everyone basically gets a guaranteed minimum income, this arrangement might make sense.  Everyone is required to work for a while, and you may choose to work a while longer if you like, but no one is indebted to work their entire lives.

arebelspy

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Re: Immortal Investors
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2015, 05:18:14 PM »
]
I think there is an interesting SF story in this concept - where most humans spend a period of their lives 'working' to accumulate a nest egg, then spend the next few/several centuries living off of it... perhaps a life would follow a Grow up - Learn - work to accumulate your nestegg - 'retire' to learn and work on new things without concern for money.

This model reminds me of the way countries like Israel handle mandatory military service.  You can do whatever you like for the rest of your life, but The State owns this little portion of your early life and they're going to put you to work in support of everyone else during that time.

In a world where all basic needs are met by machines, jobs that require human labor are scarce, and everyone basically gets a guaranteed minimum income, this arrangement might make sense.  Everyone is required to work for a while, and you may choose to work a while longer if you like, but no one is indebted to work their entire lives.

Unless human nature changed, I think most would be indebted to work forever due to psychology.
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