I知 Debt Free

[I-Ranger]

"I work in an office with someone who is a badge-carrying member of the grammar police POYM Club. While he gets the satisfaction of defending the English language internet back pats from abusers, he is thoroughly detested for it by the rest of the team forum."

Fixed that for ya.

Does this explain why you think internet back pats are more important than a new member learning that POYM is often suboptimal? Can you dig up any quotes that describe how incredibly selfish it is to think this way?

Did you read the disclaimer yet? Do you have any ideas to improve it?


Disclaimer: While pre-paying your mortgage may feel good, it is often a suboptimal financial decision that can delay FIRE while putting you at greater risk of losing your home during the pre-payment period. It is strongly encouraged that you do the math on your own situation to have a full understanding before making such a major financial decision.

MMM, who paid off his mortgage, had this to say: "...I will grudgingly admit that you will probably do much better investing in Index funds rather than paying off your mortgage."

Here is an excellent educational thread on the subject: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/dont-payoff-your-mortgage-club/

[solon]

I-Ranger = boarder42

Has anybody ever seen them in the same room? Just sayin...

[I-Ranger]

I-Ranger = boarder42

Has anybody ever seen them in the same room? Just sayin...

Any interest in explaining why you think virtual high-fives from internet strangers are more valuable than new people learning about POYM often being suboptimal? Or will you stick with personal attacks?

And don't insult boarder42 by mentioning my name in the same breath. He provided numbers and thoughtful discussion to illuminate the advantages of DPOYM. All I have done is defended the value of POYM facepunches, while extending this thread so the insane selfishness and immaturity of the vocal POYMers is obvious to all.

Do you have any ideas to improve the disclaimer?

[Davnasty]

...snip

Well, that's your interpretation and I'd disagree with it. I'd probably make some tweaks, but I think it does the job of acknowledging that a mortgage is not equivalent to "hair on fire" debt and encourages doing the math for yourself. That thread is a great resource and a good way to learn what math we're referring to. And I don't think he cherry-picked anything, it's called a "quote". Here's the source:

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/02/24/pay-down-the-mortgage-or-invest-more-a-winwin-question/

Can you provide context that changes the meaning of that quote?

Of course it's a cherry picked quote.  Because MMM has had plenty of other things to say about paying off your mortgage.  So cherry picking that one statement implies that MMM thinks you shouldn't pay off your mortgage.  In reality, MMM has seemingly been a bit neutral on it.  That disclaimer is not neutral at all and has strong DPOYM bias, while using MMM to give it credibility.  How about we add this Disclaimer to the Disclaimer...

"Whatever the reason, mortgage freedom tends to deliver long-lasting happiness to many of those who buy it, which makes it one of the better ways to spend money in my book."
- Mr Money Mustache.

It seems like you still think I-ranger is trying to argue that the bolded is true with his disclaimer. I assure you he is not. Even in the quote he used MMM "grudgingly admits". This implies that he has other opinions on the matter but he believes that the statement "you will probably do much better investing in Index funds rather than paying off your mortgage" is true. Your claim that MMM is neutral on whether or not you should pay of your mortgage is correct. On the claim index funds will probably outperform POYM, he is not neutral. That's why the quote was chosen, that is the only thing that should be taken away from it. You're reading into meanings that aren't there.

If you can't provide additional context that changes the meaning of the quote then it's not cherry picked. Other quotes related to paying off your mortgage which do not contradict the original quote don't count.

Considering you still won't acknowledge your false accusation from this little exchange:

Disclaimer: While pre-paying your mortgage may feel good, it is often a suboptimal financial decision that can delay FIRE while putting you at greater risk of losing your home during the pre-payment period

And you are in total denial about the fact that paying off your mortgage COULD end up being the better bet.

Not in denial at all, you imagined that part. Go read the disclaimer again, it says POYM is often suboptimal. Of course it makes sense to do it in certain situations, that's why I linked to the DPOYM club, because it's discussed there.

I'm not prepared to continue this debate any further.

[Davnasty]

I-Ranger = boarder42

Has anybody ever seen them in the same room? Just sayin...

Any interest in explaining why you think virtual high-fives from internet strangers are more valuable than new people learning about POYM often being suboptimal? Or will you stick with personal attacks?

And don't insult boarder42 by mentioning my name in the same breath. He provided numbers and thoughtful discussion to illuminate the advantages of DPOYM. All I have done is defended the value of POYM facepunches, while extending this thread so the insane selfishness and immaturity of the vocal POYMers is obvious to all.

Do you have any ideas to improve the disclaimer?

I know you're going for humor, but boarder42 was banned for a reason.

I think some people in this thread have made assumptions about your intent and have responded unfairly but at the same time I think you've been a little too aggressive.

I'm not going to quote anything in particular, just throwing my opinion out there. Take it for what you will.

[BlueHouse]

Your post reeks of privilege. You may have a lot of financial knowledge, but you should realize there are people that come to this site with literally no knowledge of whether POYM is right for them. To deny them the chance to learn because of an internet "celebration" is selfish and inexcusable. Not everybody has it as easy as you do, so try to put yourself in their shoes before declaring that their learning is not important.

You are disqualified for argumentum ad privilegium. The instant you throw the word privilege around, we tune out.

It was tongue-in-cheek, specifically because Blue House loves the word "privilege". I guess we all must tune Blue House out now. :)

I dooooooo?   How so?  I can't wait to hear this! 

Since you brought me back here by invoking my name, why do YOU assume people are so stupid that they can't figure out that when someone writes, in their very first sentence, that they recognize there is controversy, that means to go and research for themselves?  Honestly, if people find this forum in the first place, then they know how to poke around to find other threads on the same topic.  I find your arguments to be patronizing. 

I agree with others and I think you are a troll. 

[I-Ranger]

Your post reeks of privilege. You may have a lot of financial knowledge, but you should realize there are people that come to this site with literally no knowledge of whether POYM is right for them. To deny them the chance to learn because of an internet "celebration" is selfish and inexcusable. Not everybody has it as easy as you do, so try to put yourself in their shoes before declaring that their learning is not important.

You are disqualified for argumentum ad privilegium. The instant you throw the word privilege around, we tune out.

It was tongue-in-cheek, specifically because Blue House loves the word "privilege". I guess we all must tune Blue House out now. :)

I dooooooo?   How so?  I can't wait to hear this! 

Since you brought me back here by invoking my name, why do YOU assume people are so stupid that they can't figure out that when someone writes, in their very first sentence, that they recognize there is controversy, that means to go and research for themselves?  Honestly, if people find this forum in the first place, then they know how to poke around to find other threads on the same topic.  I find your arguments to be patronizing. 

I agree with others and I think you are a troll.

Upthread from Blue House:

"I get pretty angry when I read something as like this statement.  To me, it seems limited and judgemental.  Congratulations that you live in such a privileged and fortunate environment that no one you know has ever been hit with tough times, through no fault of their own. "

If you read my reply, your accusation of privilege couldn't have been more misplaced.

[I-Ranger]

I-Ranger = boarder42

Has anybody ever seen them in the same room? Just sayin...

Any interest in explaining why you think virtual high-fives from internet strangers are more valuable than new people learning about POYM often being suboptimal? Or will you stick with personal attacks?

And don't insult boarder42 by mentioning my name in the same breath. He provided numbers and thoughtful discussion to illuminate the advantages of DPOYM. All I have done is defended the value of POYM facepunches, while extending this thread so the insane selfishness and immaturity of the vocal POYMers is obvious to all.

Do you have any ideas to improve the disclaimer?

I know you're going for humor, but boarder42 was banned for a reason.

I think some people in this thread have made assumptions about your intent and have responded unfairly but at the same time I think you've been a little too aggressive.

I'm not going to quote anything in particular, just throwing my opinion out there. Take it for what you will.

Fair enough. The reason I come off as aggressive is that I personally benefitted from POYM facepunches, and there are plenty of other posts on this and other threads stating others have done the same. So I think they provide a great benefit, and as long as said facepunch isn't a direct personal insult to OP, i see very little harm done.

The vocal POYMers, in contrast, hold the value of a back pat from an internet stranger to be higher than this educational benefit. To me that is selfish and immature. On top of this, they defend this selfishness with anger, name-calling, and personal attacks.

It's like having someone yell at you for littering while they are beating a puppy with a golf club.

[BlueHouse]

The vocal POYMers, in contrast, hold the value of a back pat from an internet stranger to be higher than this educational benefit. To me that is selfish and immature. On top of this, they defend this selfishness with anger, name-calling, and personal attacks.

Dude, you keep repeating the same phrase, but it just isn't true.   Literally everyone agrees that sharing information and informing and educating others is the goal -- otherwise, we wouldn't be here.  We're just saying this isn't the place and when you're digging your heels in so hard, it just comes off as obstinate.  Plus, no one is attacking you.   

It's like having someone yell at you for littering while they are beating a puppy with a golf club.

Oh my gosh, please chill out.   

[I-Ranger]

The vocal POYMers, in contrast, hold the value of a back pat from an internet stranger to be higher than this educational benefit. To me that is selfish and immature. On top of this, they defend this selfishness with anger, name-calling, and personal attacks.

Dude, you keep repeating the same phrase, but it just isn't true.   Literally everyone agrees that sharing information and informing and educating others is the goal -- otherwise, we wouldn't be here.  We're just saying this isn't the place and when you're digging your heels in so hard, it just comes off as obstinate.  Plus, no one is attacking you.   

It's like having someone yell at you for littering while they are beating a puppy with a golf club.

Oh my gosh, please chill out.   

There is a POYM safe space thread that is a facepunch-free zone. Everywhere else is fair game, as far as I can tell. So, no, I won't stop standing up for something I believe in, no matter how much you try to order me to. If it bothers you that much, you do have the option of not reading, but that is your choice.

Thoughts on the disclaimer?

[Cool Friend]

If we call you a good smart boy will you finally shut the fuck up?

[I-Ranger]

If we call you a good smart boy will you finally shut the fuck up?

Nice.

[solon]

If we call you a good smart boy will you finally shut the fuck up?

Nice.

Did you ever have that one Cool Friend who would tell you hard things when you needed to hear them? Well, now you do.

[I-Ranger]

If we call you a good smart boy will you finally shut the fuck up?

Nice.

Did you ever have that one Cool Friend who would tell you hard things when you needed to hear them? Well, now you do.

Awesome. You guys are making yourselves look great. Keep it up.

Any thoughts as to how the disclaimer could be improved? Or just more personal attacks?

The safe space POYM thread is there if this bothers you so much. Full transparency on POYM is the goal! To heck with feelings! :)

[Taran Wanderer]

If we call you a good smart boy will you finally shut the fuck up?

Good one.  Too funny...

[I-Ranger]

If we call you a good smart boy will you finally shut the fuck up?

Good one.  Too funny...

What's funny about it is that they offered me an internet back pat. They should know how I feel about those! :)

Enough of the personal attacks, you guys, let's get back to the disclaimer. At this point it's a forgone conclusion it will be making appearances on future non-safespace POYM celebration threads, so we should put our heads together and get it right. Help the newcomers! Be part of the solution! Once any concerns with it are satisfied, I'll stop torturing you guys and go away from this thread, I promise. Who could ask for more? :)

Disclaimer: While pre-paying your mortgage may feel good, in the US, it is often a suboptimal financial decision that can delay FIRE while putting you at greater risk of losing your home during the pre-payment period. It is strongly encouraged that you do the math on your own situation to have a full understanding before making such a major financial decision.

MMM, who paid off his mortgage, had this to say: "...I will grudgingly admit that you will probably do much better investing in Index funds rather than paying off your mortgage."

Here is an excellent educational thread on the subject: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/dont-payoff-your-mortgage-club/

 

[CoffeeR]

Disclaimer: While pre-paying your mortgage may feel good, in the US, it is often a suboptimal financial decision...

You don't know that. You only know that it was often a suboptimal decision.

[Davnasty]

Disclaimer: While pre-paying your mortgage may feel good, in the US, it is often a suboptimal financial decision...

You don't know that. You only know that it was often a suboptimal decision.

Perhaps-

While pre-paying your mortgage may feel good, in the US, history shows that it has often been a suboptimal financial decision,...

[ReadySetMillionaire]

If we call you a good smart boy will you finally shut the fuck up?

Unlike most people, I only use the word "literally" when I mean "literally" in the traditional sense. And I literally spit up my coffee laughing out loud at this.

[TomTX]

*I've read the whole thread but maybe I missed something. I-Ranger's last "disclaimer" in particular was very gentle and to the point, and yet the next 2 responses included personal attacks.

A fair fraction of the POYM club seem to be super-sensitive and devolve to lashing out personal attacks rather quickly.

Combined with their needing a special snowflake protected thread, continued ranting against a long-gone DPOYM poster - this is quite telling about the weakness (or perhaps the emotionally-based nature) of their position.

[TomTX]

If someone was excited to share that they made $20k on their Uber side gig, and the first comment was something like "Your car is destroying the planet, this shouldn't be celebrated" - would you not have a bit of a "fuck off with that" type of thought in your head?  As in, fair point to make, this just ain't the place to make it.  Nobody here seems upset or offended by the idea of not paying off your mortgage and the debate surrounding it.  It's ALL a "time and place" thing.

False comparison, that's not what happened in this thread. Your premise is declined.

[TomTX]

The vocal POYMers, in contrast, hold the value of a back pat from an internet stranger to be higher than this educational benefit. To me that is selfish and immature. On top of this, they defend this selfishness with anger, name-calling, and personal attacks.

Dude, you keep repeating the same phrase, but it just isn't true.   Literally everyone agrees that sharing information and informing and educating others is the goal -- otherwise, we wouldn't be here.  We're just saying this isn't the place and when you're digging your heels in so hard, it just comes off as obstinate.  Plus, no one is attacking you.   

How much "safe space" is POYM trying to claim?

If you don't want discussion on POYM/DPOYM - stick to your own protected thread.

[Brother Esau]

goalphish2002 must be like... "wtf, look at the shit storm I started". This thread will have more pages than Top Is In in no time.

[the_fixer]

*I've read the whole thread but maybe I missed something. I-Ranger's last "disclaimer" in particular was very gentle and to the point, and yet the next 2 responses included personal attacks.

A fair fraction of the POYM club seem to be super-sensitive and devolve to lashing out personal attacks rather quickly.

Combined with their needing a special snowflake protected thread, continued ranting against a long-gone DPOYM poster - this is quite telling about the weakness (or perhaps the emotionally-based nature) of their position.

Or maybe they just get sick and tired of the don't pay off people constantly badgering them and shitting on their joy at being mortgage free?

I am a fence sitter I am not paying down my mortgage (2.875) and investing but when I fire I will pay off my mortgage in a lump sum payment or within a few months if I still need to control my income for ACA and Roth ladder reasons and even I get tired of the constant badgering from the Don't pay off crowd.



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[OurTown]

Strong emotions on the subject apparently.  There are certain subjects I feel strongly about as well, indexing being a good example.  I have little use for people who claim to be master stock pickers and/or market timers.  The internet diet wars are another example, I have a strongly-held belief in that area and I can get a little worked up over flame wars with the other side.  Same with politics.  It's good to remember that other people's opinions have no effect whatsoever on our own daily lives, so take it in stride.


This question is a closer call, I don't think there is a clear cut answer.  I get the arbitrage, I really do.  It's not unlike investing on margin, but it's a debt that you already have for the purpose of home ownership, not a debt you took on for the specific purpose of investing.  There is an inherent risk that your investment will not beat your mortgage interest rate; this risk scales down with time.  If you have a long time horizon and a low rate, more likely than not you will "win" by carrying the mortgage and investing your excess cash. Many people will benefit from the peace of mind they gain by paying the debt down to zero, and that's fine.  Sleep well at night.  Other people will roll with it and invest, and that's fine too.   

[the_fixer]

Strong emotions on the subject apparently.  There are certain subjects I feel strongly about as well, indexing being a good example.  I have little use for people who claim to be master stock pickers and/or market timers.  The internet diet wars are another example, I have a strongly-held belief in that area and I can get a little worked up over flame wars with the other side.  Same with politics.  It's good to remember that other people's opinions have no effect whatsoever on our own daily lives, so take it in stride.


This question is a closer call, I don't think there is a clear cut answer.  I get the arbitrage, I really do.  It's not unlike investing on margin, but it's a debt that you already have for the purpose of home ownership, not a debt you took on for the specific purpose of investing.  There is an inherent risk that your investment will not beat your mortgage interest rate; this risk scales down with time.  If you have a long time horizon and a low rate, more likely than not you will "win" by carrying the mortgage and investing your excess cash. Many people will benefit from the peace of mind they gain by paying the debt down to zero, and that's fine.  Sleep well at night.  Other people will roll with it and invest, and that's fine too.   

And you know what is funny about people getting upset about this subject....

They are upset about winning or winning slightly more.

In both cases they are more successful than the majority of people in the US yet you would think that one choice over the other makes you immoral.

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[HBFIRE]

Unlike most people, I only use the word "literally" when I mean "literally" in the traditional sense. And I literally spit up my coffee laughing out loud at this.

haha +1

[I-Ranger]

Strong emotions on the subject apparently.  There are certain subjects I feel strongly about as well, indexing being a good example.  I have little use for people who claim to be master stock pickers and/or market timers.  The internet diet wars are another example, I have a strongly-held belief in that area and I can get a little worked up over flame wars with the other side.  Same with politics.  It's good to remember that other people's opinions have no effect whatsoever on our own daily lives, so take it in stride.


This question is a closer call, I don't think there is a clear cut answer.  I get the arbitrage, I really do.  It's not unlike investing on margin, but it's a debt that you already have for the purpose of home ownership, not a debt you took on for the specific purpose of investing.  There is an inherent risk that your investment will not beat your mortgage interest rate; this risk scales down with time.  If you have a long time horizon and a low rate, more likely than not you will "win" by carrying the mortgage and investing your excess cash. Many people will benefit from the peace of mind they gain by paying the debt down to zero, and that's fine.  Sleep well at night.  Other people will roll with it and invest, and that's fine too.   

And you know what is funny about people getting upset about this subject....

They are upset about winning or winning slightly more.

In both cases they are more successful than the majority of people in the US yet you would think that one choice over the other makes you immoral.

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You are absolutely right about this. Both scenarios are winning, and are good financial decisions. The immorality comes in when someone feels a virtual high-five from a stranger is more important than someone new to the forum being informed. There is a pervasive myth in the US that POYM is optimal, and it should be challenged, just as MMM's facepunches towards clown cars, cable TV, and luxury in general are enlightening challenges to other widely held assumptions. People benefit greatly from these, including myself. If done in an impersonal, informative manner, a POYM facepunch is and should be no big deal, like any other facepunch. To deny people this benefit is selfish.

There is a safe space thread for POYM where facepunches are not allowed, so all the fist-bumping and back patting anyone could ever want is there for the taking. No one will "crap on their happiness" there, so I guess I don't get the compulsion to spread it to other areas of the forum. Some of these POYMers twist themselves in knots whining for facepunch immunity, yet somehow ignoring that there is a place where this already exists!!! All they would have to say is "Hey, OP, post this thread on our POYM safe space and we'll party!!!!" To need more than this is greed.

Market timers who claim to have made money get roundly facepunched, and I don't see a mob of angry defenders coming to their rescue, so why should POYM be any different? The timers did better than not investing at all, so shouldn't a celebration for this major financial decision also be in order? To feel only POYM is only worthy of vehement protection is hypocrisy.

[the_fixer]

Market timing is not a good comparison something more along the line of the following.

Percentage of Bonds to hold - this is a good comparison yet we do not see people going from thread to thread preaching that unless you hold x% you are doing it wrong. It is widely accepted that people have different risk tolerances when it comes to bond percentages yet that is ok even if they get less return on their money.

Avalanche VS Debt snowball - Highly debated and some people are passionate about it but at the end of the day they live and let live realizing that the end result is that both have paid off the debt. Hell even Dave Ramsey will admit that the snowball is mathematically inferior but he realizes that some people need to attack it from a different angle.

If you truly want to teach people being divisive is rarely the path to follow.

[I-Ranger]

Market timing is not a good comparison something more along the line of the following.

Percentage of Bonds to hold - this is a good comparison yet we do not see people going from thread to thread preaching that unless you hold x% you are doing it wrong. It is widely accepted that people have different risk tolerances when it comes to bond percentages yet that is ok even if they get less return on their money.

Avalanche VS Debt snowball - Highly debated and some people are passionate about it but at the end of the day they live and let live realizing that the end result is that both have paid off the debt. Hell even Dave Ramsey will admit that the snowball is mathematically inferior but he realizes that some people need to attack it from a different angle.

If you truly want to teach people being divisive is rarely the path to follow.

Those are all fair points you make, but should posts questioning someone's bond allocation or debt-paying strategy be banned? Especially when done in an impersonal, informative manner? I think a post suggesting there may be a more optimal way of doing those things should be welcomed, as it may benefit others.

[the_fixer]

Market timing is not a good comparison something more along the line of the following.

Percentage of Bonds to hold - this is a good comparison yet we do not see people going from thread to thread preaching that unless you hold x% you are doing it wrong. It is widely accepted that people have different risk tolerances when it comes to bond percentages yet that is ok even if they get less return on their money.

Avalanche VS Debt snowball - Highly debated and some people are passionate about it but at the end of the day they live and let live realizing that the end result is that both have paid off the debt. Hell even Dave Ramsey will admit that the snowball is mathematically inferior but he realizes that some people need to attack it from a different angle.

If you truly want to teach people being divisive is rarely the path to follow.

Those are all fair points you make, but should posts questioning someone's bond allocation or debt-paying strategy be banned? Especially when done in an impersonal, informative manner? I think a post suggesting there may be a more optimal way of doing those things should be welcomed, as it may benefit others.

No they should not be banned neither should the conversation about paying off a mortgage vs not paying it off.  The difference is that people in the bond / debit payoff are willing to accept that there is no correct answer for everyone out there as each person's situation is different resulting in varying degrees of right.



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[use2betrix]

People who pay off their mortgages early do not deserve face punches nearly as much as anyone who has engaged in 5 full pages of the garbage that has ensued since the first post.

[I-Ranger]

People who pay off their mortgages early do not deserve face punches nearly as much as anyone who has engaged in 5 full pages of the garbage that has ensued since the first post.

Facepunch accepted.

[Jon Bon]

This has been fun!

Lets do it again sometime.

[happy]

I see what you did there..

Spoiler: show

I知 not sure why I知 still reading this thread let alone posting in it again

[BlueHouse]

Strong emotions on the subject apparently. 

here's the thing, though.  There aren't really two "sides" to this issue because the sides are debating different things.

Side one:  Hey, let's have a party and help me celebrate.
Side two:  This is not the optimal method (statistically speaking and based on historical performance of the US stock market)

No one is even debating because we are all soooooo familiar with the debate and we all understand that using historical data, we're much more likely to make more money over a 30 year period by leveraging borrowed money and investing that in low-fee index funds.  Instead, there are two people who come in here and accuse the rest of the posters of being special snowflakes who need safe-space from debate.   So I don't truly see any debate.  there are just a bunch of people defending themselves from two people who are apparently trolling for attention. 

[I-Ranger]

Strong emotions on the subject apparently. 

here's the thing, though.  There aren't really two "sides" to this issue because the sides are debating different things.

Side one:  Hey, let's have a party and help me celebrate.
Side two:  This is not the optimal method (statistically speaking and based on historical performance of the US stock market)

No one is even debating because we are all soooooo familiar with the debate and we all understand that using historical data, we're much more likely to make more money over a 30 year period by leveraging borrowed money and investing that in low-fee index funds. Instead, there are two people who come in here and accuse the rest of the posters of being special snowflakes who need safe-space from debate.   So I don't truly see any debate.  there are just a bunch of people defending themselves from two people who are apparently trolling for attention.

This is the problem. YOU know this, and you assume everyone else knows this, but what about the people that don't know this yet? Should your party take priority over these new people learning this? Can you not see how incredibly selfish that stance is?

There is a safe space for your POYM parties, so any ones that stray outside there are open to debate. Direct your fellow partiers to that safe space and you can party forever, unencumbered by the trolls and jerks seeking to ruin your fun. :)

[Lmoot]

CoNgRaTs!! There are much worse things you could do with your money, so don't mind the haters. If this is what it took to motivate you to save/invest, then it was the right thing to do. The mathematicians on here are always so focused on the numbers, that they seem to forget the real value (and financial implications) of motivation, or lackthereof.

[BlueHouse]

Strong emotions on the subject apparently. 

here's the thing, though.  There aren't really two "sides" to this issue because the sides are debating different things.

Side one:  Hey, let's have a party and help me celebrate.
Side two:  This is not the optimal method (statistically speaking and based on historical performance of the US stock market)

No one is even debating because we are all soooooo familiar with the debate and we all understand that using historical data, we're much more likely to make more money over a 30 year period by leveraging borrowed money and investing that in low-fee index funds. Instead, there are two people who come in here and accuse the rest of the posters of being special snowflakes who need safe-space from debate.   So I don't truly see any debate.  there are just a bunch of people defending themselves from two people who are apparently trolling for attention.

This is the problem. YOU know this, and you assume everyone else knows this, but what about the people that don't know this yet? Should your party take priority over these new people learning this? Can you not see how incredibly selfish that stance is?

There is a safe space for your POYM parties, so any ones that stray outside there are open to debate. Direct your fellow partiers to that safe space and you can party forever, unencumbered by the trolls and jerks seeking to ruin your fun. :)

No, I truly do not see my congratulatory message as being selfish.  You were invited to a party here and asked to celebrate.  The OP identified that not everyone would benefit or agree with the order in which he paid off his debts.  I see your actions as rude and your continued insistence that you are right as incredibly selfish and self-centered.   You want to make this stand and you want it to be here, in this thread.  Well, I don't see YOU directing people to your DPOYM thread.  Why is that?  If you truly wanted to make your point, you would have just said "anyone who wants to see the other side of this coin and how historic data shows this hasn't been an optimal strategy can go here: [insert link].  There.   Done.  No more drama.  But that doesn't seem to be what you're looking for.

I'm done discussing this with you.  It's frustrating that you're accusing other people of the very behavior that you exhibit (IMO).  Have a nice life. 

[ReadySetMillionaire]

This is the problem. YOU know this, and you assume everyone else knows this, but what about the people that don't know this yet? Should your party take priority over these new people learning this? Can you not see how incredibly selfish that stance is?

There is a safe space for your POYM parties, so any ones that stray outside there are open to debate. Direct your fellow partiers to that safe space and you can party forever, unencumbered by the trolls and jerks seeking to ruin your fun. :)

Given that this thread is about congratulations, just want to extend a congrats to you -- your posts in this thread are arguably the most insufferable and tone-deaf set of posts in the history of this forum.

"Look at me, look at me, I am so right -- and not only am I right, I am doing it for a civic good." Almost makes me want to vomit.

I (and presumably many others) will see posts authored by you in future threads and just scroll past your name to avoid the teeth grinding that comes with reading your drivel.

***

Let me guess your response -- "WHAAAAAA -- personal attack!!! WHAAAA!!! I WAS JUST POINTING OUT BLAH BLAH BLAH."  -- Don't care. Have a fun time on this forum.

[kenmoremmm]

This is the problem. YOU know this, and you assume everyone else knows this, but what about the people that don't know this yet? Should your party take priority over these new people learning this? Can you not see how incredibly selfish that stance is?

There is a safe space for your POYM parties, so any ones that stray outside there are open to debate. Direct your fellow partiers to that safe space and you can party forever, unencumbered by the trolls and jerks seeking to ruin your fun. :)

Given that this thread is about congratulations, just want to extend a congrats to you -- your posts in this thread are arguably the most insufferable and tone-deaf set of posts in the history of this forum.

"Look at me, look at me, I am so right -- and not only am I right, I am doing it for a civic good." Almost makes me want to vomit.

I (and presumably many others) will see posts authored by you in future threads and just scroll past your name to avoid the teeth grinding that comes with reading your drivel.

***

Let me guess your response -- "WHAAAAAA -- personal attack!!! WHAAAA!!! I WAS JUST POINTING OUT BLAH BLAH BLAH."  -- Don't care. Have a fun time on this forum.

[Greenback Reproduction Specialist]

@goalphish2002, Congrats again! We also just made our final payment a few days ago, feels good huh? Almost un-explainable : )

[I-Ranger]

This is the problem. YOU know this, and you assume everyone else knows this, but what about the people that don't know this yet? Should your party take priority over these new people learning this? Can you not see how incredibly selfish that stance is?

There is a safe space for your POYM parties, so any ones that stray outside there are open to debate. Direct your fellow partiers to that safe space and you can party forever, unencumbered by the trolls and jerks seeking to ruin your fun. :)

Given that this thread is about congratulations, just want to extend a congrats to you -- your posts in this thread are arguably the most insufferable and tone-deaf set of posts in the history of this forum.

"Look at me, look at me, I am so right -- and not only am I right, I am doing it for a civic good." Almost makes me want to vomit.

I (and presumably many others) will see posts authored by you in future threads and just scroll past your name to avoid the teeth grinding that comes with reading your drivel.

***

Let me guess your response -- "WHAAAAAA -- personal attack!!! WHAAAA!!! I WAS JUST POINTING OUT BLAH BLAH BLAH."  -- Don't care. Have a fun time on this forum.

Keep attacking the messenger and avoiding the message. Effective strategy.

[I-Ranger]

Strong emotions on the subject apparently. 

here's the thing, though.  There aren't really two "sides" to this issue because the sides are debating different things.

Side one:  Hey, let's have a party and help me celebrate.
Side two:  This is not the optimal method (statistically speaking and based on historical performance of the US stock market)

No one is even debating because we are all soooooo familiar with the debate and we all understand that using historical data, we're much more likely to make more money over a 30 year period by leveraging borrowed money and investing that in low-fee index funds. Instead, there are two people who come in here and accuse the rest of the posters of being special snowflakes who need safe-space from debate.   So I don't truly see any debate.  there are just a bunch of people defending themselves from two people who are apparently trolling for attention.

This is the problem. YOU know this, and you assume everyone else knows this, but what about the people that don't know this yet? Should your party take priority over these new people learning this? Can you not see how incredibly selfish that stance is?

There is a safe space for your POYM parties, so any ones that stray outside there are open to debate. Direct your fellow partiers to that safe space and you can party forever, unencumbered by the trolls and jerks seeking to ruin your fun. :)

No, I truly do not see my congratulatory message as being selfish.  You were invited to a party here and asked to celebrate.  The OP identified that not everyone would benefit or agree with the order in which he paid off his debts.  I see your actions as rude and your continued insistence that you are right as incredibly selfish and self-centered.   You want to make this stand and you want it to be here, in this thread.  Well, I don't see YOU directing people to your DPOYM thread.  Why is that?  If you truly wanted to make your point, you would have just said "anyone who wants to see the other side of this coin and how historic data shows this hasn't been an optimal strategy can go here: [insert link].  There.   Done.  No more drama.  But that doesn't seem to be what you're looking for.

I'm done discussing this with you.  It's frustrating that you're accusing other people of the very behavior that you exhibit (IMO).  Have a nice life.

BlueHouse, with your absolute inability to grasp the selfishness of defending your "party", I'm beginning to think you aren't a person, but rather an actual house painted blue that has somehow become sentient, and sees investment in houses as worthy of celebration and defense, no matter the cost. :)

See ya around.

[Taran Wanderer]

[ReadySetMillionaire]

Boo hoo cry cry wah wah

For those who may be interested --

Go to your profile --> Buddies/Ignore List --> Edit Ignore List --> Add I-Ranger

[EngagedToFIRE]

Boo hoo cry cry wah wah

For those who may be interested --

Go to your profile --> Buddies/Ignore List --> Edit Ignore List --> Add I-Ranger

Already on my ignore list.  Thank you for summing up I-Ranger's post so I don't feel the desire to click "show post anyway".  :)

[I-Ranger]

Boo hoo cry cry wah wah

For those who may be interested --

Go to your profile --> Buddies/Ignore List --> Edit Ignore List --> Add I-Ranger

Already on my ignore list.  Thank you for summing up I-Ranger's post so I don't feel the desire to click "show post anyway".  :)

Okay, okay, let's put the animosity behind us. How about the following as a compromise? I think it covers all bases: congratulating the OP, an explicit statement that it isn't meant to be a facepunch, and some info and resources for educational purposes.




Congrats to the OP!!!! Being debt free is awesome!!!!


The following disclaimer is in no way meant to diminish your accomplishment, but is simply for educational purposes for the uninitiated:

Disclaimer: While pre-paying your mortgage may feel good, in the US, it is often a suboptimal financial decision that can delay FIRE while putting you at greater risk of losing your home during the pre-payment period. It is strongly encouraged that you do the math on your own situation to have a full understanding before making such a major financial decision.

MMM, who paid off his mortgage, had this to say: "...I will grudgingly admit that you will probably do much better investing in Index funds rather than paying off your mortgage."

Here is an excellent educational thread on the subject: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/dont-payoff-your-mortgage-club/

[Taran Wanderer]

I知 a bit disappointed. I had some really good memes prepped, I mean some really effective zingers. But all I can say to your response, I-Ranger, is nicely done, wish you had just done that originally. Thank you for rising above and moving us all beyond the animosity.

[I-Ranger]

I知 a bit disappointed. I had some really good memes prepped, I mean some really effective zingers. But all I can say to your response, I-Ranger, is nicely done, wish you had just done that originally. Thank you for rising above and moving us all beyond the animosity.

Better late then never for me, I suppose. I've never been accused of being a fast learner. :)