Author Topic: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?  (Read 32539 times)

Albert

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #100 on: November 13, 2013, 01:01:30 PM »
People didn't procreate before tax credits?

Different economy in the old days. Kids used to be assets (financially) instead of liabilities plus it was more difficult to not procreate for married folks before modern contraception.


grantmeaname

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #101 on: November 13, 2013, 01:05:56 PM »
The fact that people used to have more kids than they do now does not mean that a tax credit is a necessary or sufficient incentive.

Luck better Skill

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #102 on: November 13, 2013, 01:08:06 PM »
You want to encourage families to have kids for obvious reasons of continuing the species. Those who choose not to get to spend more money on themselves as a consolation. Seems fair to me.

  Humans are not endangered of extinction for lack of numbers.  We do not need to encourage procreation. 
  Schools provide a benefit to society by helping the young become productive members.  A solid argument can be made to tax for schools. 

Lans Holman

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #103 on: November 13, 2013, 01:09:12 PM »
Two separate issues here, are they effective and are they necessary.

I think they're effective at some level in encouraging people to have children.  Obviously they can procreate without them and nobody has a kid just for the tax break, but if you have your first kid and all of a sudden find yourself deep in the red you're much less likely to have a second.  If you find yourself able to make ends meet it's a lot easier to think about having another.

I wasn't actually trying to say that they are necessary, but I do think that the issue of an aging population needs to be dealt with somehow for a nation to remain economically vital.  You could also deal with it by increasing immigration, for example (and that would in fact be part of my "manifesto").   

If we want to talke about tax subsidies that unnecessarily distort the market, can we also bring the mortgage interest deduction into the conversation?  I feel like it's a lot easier to explain why the childless should subsidize parents than it is to explain why renters should subsidize homeowners.

Albert

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #104 on: November 13, 2013, 01:09:40 PM »
The fact that people used to have more kids than they do now does not mean that a tax credit is a necessary or sufficient incentive.

Tax credit is not a must, but some system that makes having children less financially burdersome is in my opinion desirable. We all benefit from it, even those of us who end up never having any kids.

smalllife

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #105 on: November 13, 2013, 01:11:43 PM »
If we want to talke about tax subsidies that unnecessarily distort the market, can we also bring the mortgage interest deduction into the conversation?  I feel like it's a lot easier to explain why the childless should subsidize parents than it is to explain why renters should subsidize homeowners.

That was also on my platform in the form of closing most tax loopholes and incentives.  Personally I find both arguments about the same in weight, but then again I'm a childfree homeowner ;-)

Luck better Skill

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #106 on: November 13, 2013, 01:17:36 PM »

Another part of my platform, thanks for reminding me.  Removing all subsidies and incentives to have children from the tax code.  I don't mind paying for schools, public parks, etc. but direct credits or deductions that child free individuals cannot access is not fair.  The difference isn't enough to actually raise the kid, so why give parents yet another advantage?

FSA Dependent Care, or offer something similar for everyone
Child Tax Credit
Reform or remove the Earned Income Tax Credit (Right now it is grossly weighted towards families as opposed to single adults, as are most government programs.  Single adults without kids are SOL for the most part)
Encourage employers to offer benefit packages that aren't weighted towards parents - child care deductions, covering a percentage rather than a flat amount for health/dental, only allow part time to parents, etd.

I think Smalllife needs to go one step more.  No deductions.  Progressive tax fine but no outs.  Deductions just add complexity and problems.  Add in human behavior, "The richer get deductions, pay less, etc."  Eliminate that from the start.

smalllife

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #107 on: November 13, 2013, 01:24:29 PM »

Another part of my platform, thanks for reminding me.  Removing all subsidies and incentives to have children from the tax code.  I don't mind paying for schools, public parks, etc. but direct credits or deductions that child free individuals cannot access is not fair.  The difference isn't enough to actually raise the kid, so why give parents yet another advantage?

FSA Dependent Care, or offer something similar for everyone
Child Tax Credit
Reform or remove the Earned Income Tax Credit (Right now it is grossly weighted towards families as opposed to single adults, as are most government programs.  Single adults without kids are SOL for the most part)
Encourage employers to offer benefit packages that aren't weighted towards parents - child care deductions, covering a percentage rather than a flat amount for health/dental, only allow part time to parents, etd.

I think Smalllife needs to go one step more.  No deductions.  Progressive tax fine but no outs.  Deductions just add complexity and problems.  Add in human behavior, "The richer get deductions, pay less, etc."  Eliminate that from the start.

I responded very early in the thread with an overview, see below:  I was just giving one example in response to a comment, that was by no means not all that I would do.

Quote
-Transparency in political funding: expose anyone who tried to bribe me in office, enact campaign spending limits, research ways to divorce big money from politics
-Go through the tax and legal codes, clearing out unnecessary and outdated laws (dumblaws.com anyone?) as well as closing exemptions and legal loopholes. 
-End the drug war and funnel users into rehab.
-Church and state separation: remove sectarian prayers from government meetings, end the Senate chaplaincy,  undo the McCarthy era pledge, make churches file a 990 every year just like everyone else, remove the tax exemptions for religious institutions (government subsidized religion)
-Public campaign on the availability of birth control and preventative care, remove restrictions on abortions (which would likely go down with increased use of birth control)
-End standardized testing in schools.  Use actual scientific studies to figure out what helps children learn and go from there
-Reintroduce the trades as a viable alternative to college
-Improve infrastructure and reinvent anything that needs rebuilding with easy access to or safety for alternative methods of transportation
-Independently organized redistricting, removing the gerrymandering of House seats

Luck better Skill

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #108 on: November 13, 2013, 01:26:41 PM »
The fact that people used to have more kids than they do now does not mean that a tax credit is a necessary or sufficient incentive.

Tax credit is not a must, but some system that makes having children less financially burdersome is in my opinion desirable. We all benefit from it, even those of us who end up never having any kids.

  We can provide schools, parks, and other things that help the raising of children.  Tax credits are bad.  People who want children will give up new cars, fancy dinners out, etc to raise children.  They don't need incentives.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #109 on: November 13, 2013, 01:27:14 PM »
My manifesto would be one of classical liberalism. Civil liberty AND economic liberty. You can't have one without the other. Government would only exist to protect life, liberty and property. There would be no central bank monopoly. Currencies would be open source, like Bitcoin, and they would be competing forms, including paper fiat, precious metals and anything a user places value on.

Abolish property and income tax, sales taxes on food/water. Make other taxes consumption based. Privatize schools, police, fire, etc and let them compete with voluntarily funded government run services. People will be free to pick and choose which systems they prefer without threats or coercion in these departments.

Insanity

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #110 on: November 13, 2013, 01:40:05 PM »
My manifesto would be one of classical liberalism. Civil liberty AND economic liberty. You can't have one without the other. Government would only exist to protect life, liberty and property. There would be no central bank monopoly. Currencies would be open source, like Bitcoin, and they would be competing forms, including paper fiat, precious metals and anything a user places value on.

Abolish property and income tax, sales taxes on food/water. Make other taxes consumption based. Privatize schools, police, fire, etc and let them compete with voluntarily funded government run services. People will be free to pick and choose which systems they prefer without threats or coercion in these departments.

Your making a serious assumption about BitCoin.  Remember, they don't know who the creator was or what the creator's motive was. :)

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #111 on: November 13, 2013, 01:52:24 PM »
My manifesto would be one of classical liberalism. Civil liberty AND economic liberty. You can't have one without the other. Government would only exist to protect life, liberty and property. There would be no central bank monopoly. Currencies would be open source, like Bitcoin, and they would be competing forms, including paper fiat, precious metals and anything a user places value on.

Abolish property and income tax, sales taxes on food/water. Make other taxes consumption based. Privatize schools, police, fire, etc and let them compete with voluntarily funded government run services. People will be free to pick and choose which systems they prefer without threats or coercion in these departments.

Your making a serious assumption about BitCoin.  Remember, they don't know who the creator was or what the creator's motive was. :)

Mark of the beast, I tell you! LOL.

I know. But if people want to use it, let them do so. Competing currencies are a good thing.

Luck better Skill

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #112 on: November 13, 2013, 02:08:04 PM »
My manifesto would be one of classical liberalism. Civil liberty AND economic liberty. You can't have one without the other. Government would only exist to protect life, liberty and property. There would be no central bank monopoly. Currencies would be open source, like Bitcoin, and they would be competing forms, including paper fiat, precious metals and anything a user places value on.

Abolish property and income tax, sales taxes on food/water. Make other taxes consumption based. Privatize schools, police, fire, etc and let them compete with voluntarily funded government run services. People will be free to pick and choose which systems they prefer without threats or coercion in these departments.

  I am all for trying new currencies, I expect we will soon anyway.

  For any order in society some taxes are needed.  Fire departments can be volunteer perhaps some police but I would think without public law enforcement/judicial it breaks down into clans. 

Insanity

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #113 on: November 13, 2013, 02:29:47 PM »
I think Insanity agrees with you and Lans thinks that they're necessary.

I don't think they should be offered.

I have no problem with the tax breaks and credits.  When you look at the tax advantages, I'd be willing to bet they are significantly less than the cost of the child.  But every little bit helps.  And these are people who will eventually contribute to society (hopefully).  It is really not all that different from businesses that get tax breaks for brining in large offices or small businesses who get tax breaks for offering health care in the form of "business expenses".


HokieInPa

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #114 on: November 13, 2013, 03:37:25 PM »
When I write my annual $5500 school tax check when I have no children, I often wonder why I also need to help provide a federal subsidy for others to have children. I realize that it is fair to pay something for public education for the good of the society, however anything further (tax credits, day care assistance, etc) grates my nerves. If you can't afford the child, don't have the child. Birth control is readily available, having a child is a choice. I dont like assisting others with their lifestyle choices.

captainron

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #115 on: November 13, 2013, 07:36:46 PM »
I would eliminate taxes or make them voluntary.  From there everything will fall into place. 

If 300M people feel the need for armies, roads and schools a way will be found.  Beside, the government doesn't build or do those things anyway (other than the army I suppose).  It just uses stolen money (tax revenue) to pay companies that actually have the know-how.  These companies usually have ties to people that keep politicians in power in return.

Not sure if I want to laugh or cry.

Cry. The mafia's protection racket would end up running everything, we'd end up back as serfs on our masters' lands. No thanks!

That is essentially what we have now.  Try not paying your taxes (protection) to the government (mafia) and try to keep your property and/or freedom.  Try to open up a beauty salon without a license, start a cab company, rent out your house on a short term basis, bypass distributors in certain industries, sell drugs or personal services to willing customers.  See what happens if you don't buy health insurance.  There are endless examples.  Behind these laws, passed in the name of the public good, are cronies, politicians, and do-gooders working together in an unholy alliance for their own benefit at others expense.  Working together for mutual benefit is legitimate in my view but having your agenda backed by the threat of government violence, which is what the enforcement of these laws amounts to, regardless of your good and fair intentions is not. 

The only real difference between the mafia or a gang and the government is the degree to which most people believe their authority is legitimate.  Most everyone views a gang banger robbing a guy at gun point as a criminal act and that the guy should be allowed to defend himself but when a cop seizes the same guys car at gun point for the mere suspicion of being involved with drugs most people trip over themselves to defend the cop.  God help you if commit the ultimate sin and kill the cop.  Did I mention government is the real religion of 99% of Americans/Canadians/Western Europeans?  Just look at how people react when you question it.





avonlea

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #116 on: November 13, 2013, 07:56:27 PM »
When I write my annual $5500 school tax check when I have no children, I often wonder why I also need to help provide a federal subsidy for others to have children. I realize that it is fair to pay something for public education for the good of the society, however anything further (tax credits, day care assistance, etc) grates my nerves. If you can't afford the child, don't have the child. Birth control is readily available, having a child is a choice. I dont like assisting others with their lifestyle choices.

Public elementary and secondary school gets to be funded but not daycare? Early childhood education is still education.  A child doesn't start learning at the age of 5.  There are very important years of growth before then.  In an ideal world, all parents would be responsible and not have kids before they could afford to provide for them.  That is not the world we live in.  Many kids already have the deck stacked against them way before they enter kindergarten.

My son was very lucky. He attended a preschool at a university.  The program was covered by state funding, federal funding, the university, and also the parents.  It was a part-time class, 3 days a week, and we only had to pay $200 a month.  His teacher had a masters degree and a graduate assistant helped her.  It was a wonderful program and he thrived.  If early childhood education were taken seriously and more programs such as this existed, I really believe it would help the future of this country.

Leisured

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #117 on: November 13, 2013, 11:33:35 PM »
The disparity in wealth and income is higher now than it has ever been in history. Bill Gates is supposed to be worth $50 billion, which implies dividend income of perhaps $1.5 billion a year. Gates receives 50,000 times the income of someone on $30K a year. I have nothing against Bill Gates. Even in medieval Europe, a rich businessman could not earn 50,000 times as much as a laborer, because the economic pie was so much smaller. This disparity is new in history, and needs to be taken seriously, in all societies.
I used to be of this mind. I wouldn't know what to search to find it, but we had a thread early on in the life of the forum in which arebelspy pointed out that we shouldn't really be measuring ourselves by external yardsticks and comparing the wealth of the 99th percentile to the wealth of the tenth percentile. Who cares if inequality is growing, if in the process even the very poorest members of society are having their standard of living rise by leaps and bounds by the same system that differentially enriches the top few percent? It's still a socially optimal outcome in which everyone's fortunes are rising.

The standard quote is 'the rising tide lifts all the boats.' Does not always work, and what we see today, is that the rising prosperity accrues disproportionally to the very rich. We should care about growing inequality, because the extra income of the very rich is not always spent in ways which benefit the poor. That is, inequality means less of the economic pie for the poor.

Economists use the term 'social wage' to describe Government services such as education and health care which benefit the poor even though the poor do not receive the benefit as money. We have probably exhausted the possibilities of the social wage. Some posters have raised the matter of a basic income, payable to everybody, and paid for by higher taxes.

Inequality matters in another way. Mechanization and automation raise living standards for all, and we may eventually reach a stage where the very rich are so amazingly rich that they can pay for all Government services by themselves. Not saying we have reached that stage yet, but it seems to be on the horizon.


Leisured

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #118 on: November 14, 2013, 12:05:55 AM »
We have drifted off topic. The OP suggested a Mustachian political stance, and as I see it, Mustachianism specifies living with your means, and saving and investing. That is all. Mustachianism has nothing to say about the pros and cons of government funded health, education, and childcare.

A corollary of Mustachiansim is that, in general, a VAT is more sensible than income tax, because we should discourage consumption and encourage saving and investing. In Australia we call a Value Added Tax a GST (Goods and Services Tax, otherwise known as Grab, Snatch and Take.) A VAT of say 50% on all goods and services would slow consumption, but also unfortunately slow the economy and jobs. In Australia, we have a VAT of 10%, and we thought about the possibility of excluding food from the GST about 12 years ago, with the attendant problems of defining what is food and what is not. In Australia, we do exclude a few items of non food items from the GST, such as health services. The usual view among economists is to tax everything and recompense low income earners for the extra VAT they pay.

Income tax is still needed, of course. Discouraging consumption will cause persistent unemployment, which could be eased by encouraging early retirement.

Another corollary of Mustachianism is that it makes sense to encourage investment in retirement schemes. In Australia we have compulsory superannuation for all employees, which has not been in existence long enough to have a big benefit. Employers now pay 9% of an employee’s into superannuation funds, which have tax benefits.

These are all armchair reveries, because there is no chance of a Mustachian political party taking power. Even if Mustachianism changed its name.


avonlea

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #119 on: November 14, 2013, 05:05:34 AM »
Policy to provide free education up to batchelors degree for those who are bright enough, and encouragement for apprenticeship availability for the rest - along with some work experience between high/secondary school and going to university. Really try to do away with 'learning by rote' where possible. And possibly offer alternative learning paths for those who learn differently.

What would yours be?

This is part of what the OP wrote in his original post, so we haven't gotten off topic.

acroy

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #120 on: November 14, 2013, 07:02:07 AM »
- Broadly: the ONLY LEGITIMATE PURPOSE of government is to protect life, liberty, and property of its civilians. That's it! Anything else is forcing an agenda/ideology on others
- Sticking to the original U.S. Constitution would be a good start - it's been so stretched it would be funny if it was not sad

A lot of you are worrying me, claiming you'd outlaw Internet advertising, inheritance, etc etc. yeesh, so draconian. Who are you anyway to tell others what to do?

grantmeaname

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #121 on: November 14, 2013, 07:32:40 AM »
That is, inequality means less of the economic pie for the poor.
That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that even if inequality is growing and the poor have a smaller piece of the pie than they did 50 years ago, the more relevant fact is that their standard of living is dramatically higher, and it's short-sighted and unproductive to ignore that fact and moan about the fact that inequality is growing. If that's a necessary part of the system that's bringing everyone health, prosperity, and a higher standard of living, so be it.

daverobev

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #122 on: November 14, 2013, 09:15:35 AM »
I would eliminate taxes or make them voluntary.  From there everything will fall into place. 

If 300M people feel the need for armies, roads and schools a way will be found.  Beside, the government doesn't build or do those things anyway (other than the army I suppose).  It just uses stolen money (tax revenue) to pay companies that actually have the know-how.  These companies usually have ties to people that keep politicians in power in return.

Not sure if I want to laugh or cry.

Cry. The mafia's protection racket would end up running everything, we'd end up back as serfs on our masters' lands. No thanks!

That is essentially what we have now.  Try not paying your taxes (protection) to the government (mafia) and try to keep your property and/or freedom.  Try to open up a beauty salon without a license, start a cab company, rent out your house on a short term basis, bypass distributors in certain industries, sell drugs or personal services to willing customers.  See what happens if you don't buy health insurance.  There are endless examples.  Behind these laws, passed in the name of the public good, are cronies, politicians, and do-gooders working together in an unholy alliance for their own benefit at others expense.  Working together for mutual benefit is legitimate in my view but having your agenda backed by the threat of government violence, which is what the enforcement of these laws amounts to, regardless of your good and fair intentions is not. 

The only real difference between the mafia or a gang and the government is the degree to which most people believe their authority is legitimate.  Most everyone views a gang banger robbing a guy at gun point as a criminal act and that the guy should be allowed to defend himself but when a cop seizes the same guys car at gun point for the mere suspicion of being involved with drugs most people trip over themselves to defend the cop.  God help you if commit the ultimate sin and kill the cop.  Did I mention government is the real religion of 99% of Americans/Canadians/Western Europeans?  Just look at how people react when you question it.

Nothing happens if I don't buy health insurance because I don't live in the US. Actually in most of the world you don't have to buy health insurance.

The biggest problem is that "the market" will only provide service to profitable places. The internet would not be available in much of Canada, and would be very slow *anywhere* not a really populous city, if it was just up to private companies. It would be spotty. There would be few doctors, few services, etc, etc. You'd just end up with the rich living together getting access to all the good stuff, and everyone else as a serf.

Yeah, you pay taxes. Yeah, the government has to make it so it's punishable NOT to pay taxes - else nobody'd pay them. But the taxes pay for roads, for schools, and generally make sure that people who have trouble fending for themselves are supported.

Survival of the fittest is a perfectly good solution, if you ignore.. what.. empathy. I don't know what the right word is. "Fuck'em" to everyone who isn't able or willing to fight and win in that paradigm. The difference between barbarism and modern society is having social safety nets - not just because it leads to an increase in GDP, but because it's just "the right thing to do". Is it? On a cosmic scale, who cares. On a personal scale, yeah I don't mind giving over a portion of what I earn so the actual "disadvantaged" aren't thrown out of town and left to starve.

And the thing is, I know if there was no systematic way of this happening, churches, orphanages, etc would exist - but it wouldn't be universal. In some towns you'd get care, in others, nothing. And that is not "fair" - and in my mind "fair" is what it's all about.

I want a leaner government, yes, and one that doesn't support people who have no good reason to need supporting. Some laws are out of date, ridiculous, etc. But I'd say the benefit outweighs the cost. By quite some margin.

grantmeaname

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #123 on: November 14, 2013, 09:23:39 AM »
- Broadly: the ONLY LEGITIMATE PURPOSE of government is to protect life, liberty, and property of its civilians. That's it! Anything else is forcing an agenda/ideology on others
Why doesn't forcing your ideology on others qualify as forcing an ideology on others? Because you agree with it?

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #124 on: November 14, 2013, 09:25:24 AM »
That is essentially what we have now.  Try not paying your taxes (protection) to the government (mafia) and try to keep your property and/or freedom.  Try to open up a beauty salon without a license, start a cab company, rent out your house on a short term basis, bypass distributors in certain industries, sell drugs or personal services to willing customers.  See what happens if you don't buy health insurance.  There are endless examples.  Behind these laws, passed in the name of the public good, are cronies, politicians, and do-gooders working together in an unholy alliance for their own benefit at others expense.  Working together for mutual benefit is legitimate in my view but having your agenda backed by the threat of government violence, which is what the enforcement of these laws amounts to, regardless of your good and fair intentions is not. 

The only real difference between the mafia or a gang and the government is the degree to which most people believe their authority is legitimate.  Most everyone views a gang banger robbing a guy at gun point as a criminal act and that the guy should be allowed to defend himself but when a cop seizes the same guys car at gun point for the mere suspicion of being involved with drugs most people trip over themselves to defend the cop.  God help you if commit the ultimate sin and kill the cop.  Did I mention government is the real religion of 99% of Americans/Canadians/Western Europeans?  Just look at how people react when you question it.
That's right, it's legal when govt, or one of their appointed corporations does it. Laws are for civilians, not the rulers. Murder, theft, counterfeiting, sexual assault, all legal when you call yourself a govt.

- Broadly: the ONLY LEGITIMATE PURPOSE of government is to protect life, liberty, and property of its civilians. That's it! Anything else is forcing an agenda/ideology on others
- Sticking to the original U.S. Constitution would be a good start - it's been so stretched it would be funny if it was not sad

A lot of you are worrying me, claiming you'd outlaw Internet advertising, inheritance, etc etc. yeesh, so draconian. Who are you anyway to tell others what to do?

There is a lot of that here. For a group that prides itself of being frugal and independent, its ironic that so many are clinging to institutions that are the epitome of waste and dependency.

MMM is an icon of financial independence yet the idea of economic liberty under our govt is something abysmal.


Mr.Macinstache

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #125 on: November 14, 2013, 09:29:14 AM »
- Broadly: the ONLY LEGITIMATE PURPOSE of government is to protect life, liberty, and property of its civilians. That's it! Anything else is forcing an agenda/ideology on others
Why doesn't forcing your ideology on others qualify as forcing an ideology on others? Because you agree with it?

Since when does non-intervention = force?

1984 novel does not count. It was supposed to be fiction.

acroy

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #126 on: November 14, 2013, 09:34:01 AM »
- Broadly: the ONLY LEGITIMATE PURPOSE of government is to protect life, liberty, and property of its civilians. That's it! Anything else is forcing an agenda/ideology on others
Why doesn't forcing your ideology on others qualify as forcing an ideology on others? Because you agree with it?

I'd suggest the above is a logical statement, not an ideology. There's no 'force on others' applied at all - only protection of the citizens basic human rights.
 
The only thing the statement requires is
-acceptance of logic (without which the world does not work)
-acceptance that life, liberty, property are the basic, unalienable human rights.

Thus, the most basic requirement of a society is protection of life, liberty, property of it's members from violation.

The rest is noise and details.

grantmeaname

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #127 on: November 14, 2013, 09:40:55 AM »
There is a lot of that here. For a group that prides itself of being frugal and independent, its ironic that so many are clinging to institutions that are the epitome of waste and dependency.
It's only ironic if you think that mustachians want to be independent from productive society and not just financial dependence on work, that government institutions are the epitome of waste and dependency, and that true freedom requires wearing a tinfoil hat and cravenly guarding your surplus from the 'leeches' of society. None of those views are widely held here, and for the (many) people who don't hold them there's no contradiction. But it should hardly be surprised that this site is filled with eusocial people capable of considering what's best for society. Just look at two of the last three MMM articles:
The position of strength: "Giving is a form of strength. When you say, 'I have more than I need, and thus my desire to take should fade away as my desire to help out grows'."
On Obamacare: "the Affordable Care Act is really designed to help people less fortunate than us – students and seniors, people with existing conditions, the unemployed and quite notably self-employed entrepreneurs."

grantmeaname

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #128 on: November 14, 2013, 09:42:04 AM »
The only thing the statement requires is... acceptance that life, liberty, property are the basic, unalienable human rights.
Accepting life, liberty, and property as the only basic human rights is an ideology.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #129 on: November 14, 2013, 10:03:58 AM »
There is a lot of that here. For a group that prides itself of being frugal and independent, its ironic that so many are clinging to institutions that are the epitome of waste and dependency.
It's only ironic if you think that mustachians want to be independent from productive society and not just financial dependence on work, that government institutions are the epitome of waste and dependency, and that true freedom requires wearing a tinfoil hat and cravenly guarding your surplus from the 'leeches' of society. None of those views are widely held here, and for the (many) people who don't hold them there's no contradiction. But it should hardly be surprised that this site is filled with eusocial people capable of considering what's best for society. Just look at two of the last three MMM articles:
The position of strength: "Giving is a form of strength. When you say, 'I have more than I need, and thus my desire to take should fade away as my desire to help out grows'."
On Obamacare: "the Affordable Care Act is really designed to help people less fortunate than us – students and seniors, people with existing conditions, the unemployed and quite notably self-employed entrepreneurs."

You're totally missing your ideology of force. Giving is good, so it must be forced? People who are communitarian are doing so only because of govt force?

MMM's article is the opposite of that. It champions free market voluntary exchange. Mrs MMM gave up her commission voluntarily.

Too often the fact that people choose to voluntarily give to others on their own accord, for the betterment of all, and help the less fortuante are doing so on voluntarily. Not at the hand of some authoritarian directive under the pretense "good for society".

Shouldn't the people of society freely decide what is good for them? Or do they need a small group of people to decide and force that upon them?

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #130 on: November 14, 2013, 10:09:58 AM »
Not what I said at all.

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #131 on: November 14, 2013, 10:22:18 AM »
Hey this is finally getting good, it’s coming down to a logical discussion on the philosophy of governance.

Grantmeaname, you are provocatively stirring the pot without providing much in the way of productive input.

What is a ‘productive society’?

If you question the want (right, duty) to defend individual property from sticky fingers, why?

Maintenance of true freedom requires constant vigilance. This is the only way to guard against infraction. History proves this. If this ‘requires a tinfoil hat’ in your opinion, sign me up!

The MMM article ‘The position of Strength” – giving is only giving if voluntary. As Mr.Macinstache noted, Forced charity is no charity.

On Obamacare: MMM and I part ways here. He is entitled to his opinion on the purpose of the ACA, I have mine. Do you accept his?

The acceptance of life, liberty, property as the basic, unalienable human rights must be the foundation of any just society, and are derived from pure logic accepting only the principle of Justice. If you wish to call it an ideology, feel free to do so. Do you question the principle of justice?

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #132 on: November 14, 2013, 10:29:49 AM »
Hey this is finally getting good, it’s coming down to a logical discussion on the philosophy of governance.

Grantmeaname, you are provocatively stirring the pot without providing much in the way of productive input.

What is a ‘productive society’?

If you question the want (right, duty) to defend individual property from sticky fingers, why?

Maintenance of true freedom requires constant vigilance. This is the only way to guard against infraction. History proves this. If this ‘requires a tinfoil hat’ in your opinion, sign me up!

The MMM article ‘The position of Strength” – giving is only giving if voluntary. As Mr.Macinstache noted, Forced charity is no charity.

On Obamacare: MMM and I part ways here. He is entitled to his opinion on the purpose of the ACA, I have mine. Do you accept his?

The acceptance of life, liberty, property as the basic, unalienable human rights must be the foundation of any just society, and are derived from pure logic accepting only the principle of Justice. If you wish to call it an ideology, feel free to do so. Do you question the principle of justice?

ACA, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment -- these are all forced and therefore not from a position of strength.

A better way MAY (and I stress may) is to set up methods for donations where there is a multiplier added to those donations and that value can be added to your charitable contributions thus provide a tax break.

I have no idea if that would really work, just an out of the box suggestion.

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #133 on: November 14, 2013, 11:13:15 AM »
Grantmeaname, you are provocatively stirring the pot without providing much in the way of productive input.
I've pretty explicitly laid out my beliefs in about four lengthy posts in this thread alone. You're mischaracterizing my arguments, and all you're burning down is straw men. I'm never said anything to the effect that "sticky fingers" have a right to all or any of my or your property, I've said that my experience has taught me that some limited level of government is necessary and that government must be funded somehow. As a fortunate, productive, well-compensated member of that society I believe it's my obligation to contribute to the welfare of others. Why do libertarians have such a ridiculous amount of trouble with this concept?
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The acceptance of life, liberty, property as the basic, unalienable human rights must be the foundation of any just society,

Bullshit. That's an opinion that you've shown no support for, for one thing, and most of the societies of the world don't start from those three, for another. You may as well start a society on the notion that "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering" if you're going to act like three vague, shadowy, ill-defined and interrelated concepts were handed to mankind out of the ether as the basis of society. But to go further and say that any society predicated on different values is fundamentally unjust? That's an eye-roller.
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and are derived from pure logic accepting only the principle of Justice.
That statement means literally nothing.
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If you wish to call it an ideology, feel free to do so.
If any opinion other than yours is an ideology, and you are unable to articulate what separates your opinion from all other opinions other than saying they come from "pure logic", then your opinion is an ideology too. They're just like assholes: everyone has one, and they stink. Yours is not unique.
Quote
Do you question the principle of justice?
I doubt you and I assign the same meaning to the term. Or any other two people chosen at random off the street.

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #134 on: November 14, 2013, 11:19:02 AM »
The acceptance of life, liberty, property as the basic, unalienable human rights must be the foundation of any just society, and are derived from pure logic accepting only the principle of Justice. If you wish to call it an ideology, feel free to do so. Do you question the principle of justice?

There are several proposed theories of justice. The Rawlsian theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Theory_of_Justice) suggests that the right to own some kinds of property is basic but the right is not absolute for all kinds of property.

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #135 on: November 14, 2013, 12:55:20 PM »
Sorry man but I carefully reviewed your posts and you have not laid out your beliefs explicitly; you’ve offered a few opinions on details but no foundation for the opinions to rest on. A house built on sand is unsteady and unsure of itself, and collapses when stressed. You claim you shown a nice solid house, but it’s only vaguely visible and seems quite unsteady from this viewpoint. The remainder of the posts have been provocative criticisms of others.  There does seem to be ‘much anger in this one’.

“my experience has taught me…”
  you’re 21?  Dude.

“As a fortunate, productive, well-compensated member of that society I believe it's my obligation to contribute to the welfare of others. Why do libertarians have such a ridiculous amount of trouble with this concept?”

Your obligation, indeed. To be enforced by law; this is the part libertarians take issue with. This is “The Fatal Idea of Legal Plunder”

“most of the societies of the world don't start from those three”
more is the misfortune.

“Life, liberty, property” are anything but vague, shadowy, ill-defined. If you wish to learn the derivations & precise definitions of these terms, and the role of the law in guarding them, I highly suggest “The Law” by Bastiat.  It is a good entertaining read – in fact, MMM’s style is somewhat similar.

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #136 on: November 15, 2013, 06:04:37 AM »
Some thoughts and observations on Taxes.

1.  Some taxes will be need to provide an orderly society.  Without a handful of violent rule the rest.  We can argue what that level of taxes are but can we agree that taxes help pay for a structure to society?
2.  People do not like to pay taxes.  When taxes are high citizens work to avoid them.  Studies have show 30 to 35% is max for collecting taxes.  After that more money is spent trying to force compliance with the law then is received in revenue or the rich get tax exemptions added to avoid the tax.
3.  There are unintended consequences of taxes.  Thought should be given to how humans will behave/react to a tax.  An example is all the payroll taxes in the USA that increases your tax liabilities for employing US workers but reward you for moving the jobs overseas.
4.  Time and complexity is the enemy of efficient taxes.  Tax codes do not live in a vacuum.  Tax laws that worked in 19th century may not work at all in the 21st century.
 

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #137 on: November 15, 2013, 12:40:27 PM »
Oh yeah, Taxes!!!

I sure agree they are absolutely necessary, government cannot exists without tax unless we kindly donated our time & assets.

Income tax’s fatal flaw is that it taxes (discourages) production and encourages hiding of income (fraud). And it requires a massive bureaucracy to run. Huge loss of privacy as well, as the tax man needs to know who you are and how much you make. And then it gets political – what is income? A gift? Are there deductions? Such as the modern deduction of interest on mortgage payments, which subsides debt and home purchasing. How are debtors and  home owners better than their fellow citizens? If they are not, why does the tax code say they are?

So let’s kill income tax

Consumption tax -  ‘sales’ tax – encourages less consumption (ie. encourages saving), requires less of a bureaucracy, as the tax man does not care who you are or how much you make – only that you pay X% on things you buy. It can still be political, as should ALL items be taxed? Food? If not, why not? And the argument can be made that it is heavily regressive on lower income as lower income is forced to pay more percentage in tax.

Well, if the lower-income citizens have the same rights & opportunities as everyone else, should tax law favor or attempt to equalize on the basis of income? If so, why? What makes them better, worthy of extra consideration over Mr Joe Rich? I don’t have a good answer for that one.

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #138 on: November 15, 2013, 01:17:13 PM »
Don't forget property tax, the biggest scam of all. It's not a tax, but a rent you pay to a govt for holding land, boats, cars etc. Why stop there? Why aren't we taxed on other property, like silverware, electronics, jewelry? Surely this is property too.

Property tax gets is roots from when all property was held "of the Crown" and you paid a fee for occupying the King's land. And just like now, if you refuse to pay to your property tax, it gets taken from you. If you have to pay a tax on your property, then you don't really own it.

So no income tax, no property tax. What's left is a sales or consumption based tax, which is reasonable. Those who use the most, pay the most. This does not exempt lower class, but does not hurt them either. And this does not punish or discourage success.


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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #139 on: November 15, 2013, 01:25:56 PM »
Property tax gets is roots from when all property was held "of the Crown" and you paid a fee for occupying the King's land. And just like now, if you refuse to pay to your property tax, it gets taken from you. If you have to pay a tax on your property, then you don't really own it.

I thought property tax got it's roots from the fact that pretty much all property is hooked to electricity, water, and sewage and that it costs money to maintain those systems.  I don't think you'll find any instances of property taxes before these services were available.  This is completely different than renting a plot from the king.

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #140 on: November 15, 2013, 01:33:01 PM »
Property tax in the U.S. originated from neither royal land lease or needing to pay for civic infrastructure:

"Property taxes in the United States originated during colonial times. By 1796, state and local governments in fourteen of the 15 states taxed land, but only four taxed inventory (stock in trade)."

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax_in_the_United_States)

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #141 on: November 15, 2013, 01:34:05 PM »
Property tax gets is roots from when all property was held "of the Crown" and you paid a fee for occupying the King's land. And just like now, if you refuse to pay to your property tax, it gets taken from you. If you have to pay a tax on your property, then you don't really own it.

I thought property tax got it's roots from the fact that pretty much all property is hooked to electricity, water, and sewage and that it costs money to maintain those systems.  I don't think you'll find any instances of property taxes before these services were available.  This is completely different than renting a plot from the king.

Nope, you still pay property tax if those services exist, or are hooked up or not.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #142 on: November 15, 2013, 01:40:37 PM »
Property tax in the U.S. originated from neither royal land lease or needing to pay for civic infrastructure:

"Property taxes in the United States originated during colonial times. By 1796, state and local governments in fourteen of the 15 states taxed land, but only four taxed inventory (stock in trade)."

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax_in_the_United_States)

No, it's not an American invention. It all originated from the feudal system and predates 1796. Property tax is just a modern version of Land tenure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_tenure
Quote
Land tenure is the name given, particularly in common law systems, to the legal regime in which land is owned by an individual, who is said to "hold" the land (the French verb "tenir" means "to hold"; "tenant" is the present participle of "tenir"). The sovereign monarch, known as The Crown, held land in its own right. All private owners are either its tenants or sub-tenants. The term "tenure" is used to signify the relationship between tenant and lord, not the relationship between tenant and land.

Eric

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #143 on: November 15, 2013, 01:52:49 PM »
Property tax in the U.S. originated from neither royal land lease or needing to pay for civic infrastructure:

"Property taxes in the United States originated during colonial times. By 1796, state and local governments in fourteen of the 15 states taxed land, but only four taxed inventory (stock in trade)."

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax_in_the_United_States)

Ah, good to know.  Thanks for the correction.

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #144 on: November 15, 2013, 01:58:47 PM »
- Broadly: the ONLY LEGITIMATE PURPOSE of government is to protect life, liberty, and property of its civilians. That's it! Anything else is forcing an agenda/ideology on others

This is a wildly broad and open to interpretation purpose.

Protect life?
- Operate a military
- Operate police forces
- Institute food and drug safety organizations and policies
- Building codes and regulations
- Traffic rules and regulations, road maintenance
- Safety regulations
- Environmental regulations
- Fire departments
- Available, free health care
- Forced dietary changes when people get to fat
- Outlawing the use of all harmful substances

Where does one draw the line?  Liberty is altered significantly by the 'protection of life'.  Are you free to do things that can cause harm to others?  What about the property of citizens?  How does one pay for the protection of life without appropriating some of the property of citizens?

The statement you made, while sounding nice is utterly dependent on the views of the person implementing it.

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #145 on: November 16, 2013, 11:27:08 PM »
I will say it again; we have drifted off topic. The OP suggested a Mustachian political stance, and as I see it, Mustachianism specifies living with your means, and saving and investing. That is all. Repeat, that is all.

Mustachianism does have something to say about the pros and cons of one form of taxation over another, and about government funded health, education, and childcare, about which more below. Like many living outside the US, I am entertained by the strange political ideas held by many Americans, and the best cure for such ideas is to read some political philosophy, and absorb wisdom from the past. Machiavelli and Thomas Hobbes have influenced my political views, and both had very down to earth views of politics. Both knew that some form of government was essential, and that the form of government, and the ways that taxation revenues were raised, were purely practical matters.

There is little point in anyone standing for political office on a Mustachian platform as an individual. A Mustachian political party means party discipline. If a Mustachian party actually gained office (Laughter), then by necessity it would have to add policies on matters which are not strictly Mustachian. Nothing wrong with that.

Thomas Hobbes, writing mid seventeenth century, famously declared that in the absence of government, ‘life is nasty, brutish and short.’ In his day, the ruler was only obliged to protect life, liberty and property, as Acroy has pointed out. President Assad of Syria is not protecting life, liberty and property in his realm, so his subjects are entitled to think he is not doing his job, as Hobbes would be quick to point out. It does not follow that the rebels in Syria would do any better if they succeeding in seizing power.

I have heard that Louis 14th, late in life, believed that if a monarch worked to improve the prosperity of his subjects, that monarch was working for himself, because a prosperous nation is stronger, and its monarch correspondingly more glorious. Louis was never one to knock back some royal glory. Some modern rulers, notably in Africa, would do well to consider this idea.

Nasty, brutish and short. Prosperity will fix most of these problems, but the free market does not adequately provide education and good health cover for all, and modern rulers have in it their power to eliminate or sharply reduce the brutish effects of poor education and inadequate health cover. Both Hobbes and Louis 14 would have been surprised, and perhaps, impressed.

Mustachiansim seeks to discourage conspicuous consumption, so a Value Added Tax is a good tax. This does not preclude other taxes.

Mustachianism seeks to encourage saving and investment, and compulsory superannuation, with associated tax benefits, for all employees is a good idea. Many rich countries, including Australia, where I come from, have such schemes.

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #146 on: November 17, 2013, 11:21:45 AM »
I will say it again; we have drifted off topic. The OP suggested a Mustachian political stance, and as I see it, Mustachianism specifies living with your means, and saving and investing. That is all. Repeat, that is all.

Well, I'm only going to disagree with you on one thing - the question was "if you were to run for govt, what would your manifesto be?" - everything I posted is simply my musings on that topic! Drift as much as you like!

I don't for a minute think that straight up "Mustachianism" is a manifesto. Perhaps integrity, transparency, and a commitment to live within our means.

I had a funny thought though, this morning - if people earn and save at least some money during life, but also have stuff on credit, if when they die their debts are repaid and leave $0 to their children... that's actually pretty much ok. Oh, getting the balance right is hard (unless you buy an annuity with everything - or do one of those home-to-income deals where you get to live in your home til you die).

Well.. that *is* off topic, ha.

Nasty, brutish and short.. there is a danger of that, and I think tabloid society gives a pretty good impression of how mean people *can* be if left entirely to their own devices. Not sure how you'd legislate "making people a bit more thoughtful, kinder, less selfish" though... I guess REALLY investing in education, not lip-service and "learning to pass tests" but real personal development.

acroy

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Re: If you were to run for government, what would your manifesto be?
« Reply #147 on: November 19, 2013, 08:07:09 AM »
- Broadly: the ONLY LEGITIMATE PURPOSE of government is to protect life, liberty, and property of its civilians. That's it! Anything else is forcing an agenda/ideology on others

This is a wildly broad and open to interpretation purpose.

Protect life?
- Operate a military
- Operate police forces
- Institute food and drug safety organizations and policies
- Building codes and regulations
- Traffic rules and regulations, road maintenance
- Safety regulations
- Environmental regulations
- Fire departments
- Available, free health care
- Forced dietary changes when people get to fat
- Outlawing the use of all harmful substances

Where does one draw the line?  Liberty is altered significantly by the 'protection of life'.  Are you free to do things that can cause harm to others?  What about the property of citizens?  How does one pay for the protection of life without appropriating some of the property of citizens?

The statement you made, while sounding nice is utterly dependent on the views of the person implementing it.
Correct - I was attempting to set a baseline, a measuring stick, a foundation for a political manifesto. I would disagree that it is too broad; it comes down to a definition of terms. As long as the terms are carefully defined, it is a very good 'acid test' for political positions. If you disagree, do you have a carefully defined alternative?

It does assume that all persons are equal; i.e. it is incompatible with slavery. It is very interesting that it is only in the last couple hundred years that slavery has become socially unacceptable - it was the norm for thousands of years.

Specifically:
- a person is not free to harm - liberty is not a license to harm others.
-Appropriation of property - Taxes are of course necessary, but what is a 'just' tax? That is an interesting question!