If you could live anywhere in the US...?

[seattlecyclone]

I chuckle a bit when I hear people from the lower 48 talk about how long the winters are. For comparison, London, England has much shorter days in winter, and they are considerably further south than Berlin or all of Scandinavia. Even Paris, France is further North than St Paul. You are closer to the equator than the geographic North Pole.

The difference between Minneapolis and those European cities you mention is that Minneapolis has much harsher winter weather. While London does experience more darkness (about an hour less sunlight on the Winter Solstice), there are entire weeks in Minneapolis every winter where it's unsafe to go outside for 30 minutes with exposed skin. I went to visit family in that area over the holidays. On a "warm" (~15 F) day we did take the kids outside for some sledding, and I took a short walk in the woods, but beyond that we mostly sheltered inside.

Where I live now (Seattle) is much closer to London than Minneapolis in terms of darkness and climate during the winter. The darkness and the bitter cold both mess with you, but for me it's no contest: I prefer the milder weather, darkness and all.

[Arbitrage]

I chuckle a bit when I hear people from the lower 48 talk about how long the winters are. For comparison, London, England has much shorter days in winter, and they are considerably further south than Berlin or all of Scandinavia. Even Paris, France is further North than St Paul. You are closer to the equator than the geographic North Pole.

The difference between Minneapolis and those European cities you mention is that Minneapolis has much harsher winter weather. While London does experience more darkness (about an hour less sunlight on the Winter Solstice), there are entire weeks in Minneapolis every winter where it's unsafe to go outside for 30 minutes with exposed skin. I went to visit family in that area over the holidays. On a "warm" (~15 F) day we did take the kids outside for some sledding, and I took a short walk in the woods, but beyond that we mostly sheltered inside.

Where I live now (Seattle) is much closer to London than Minneapolis in terms of darkness and climate during the winter. The darkness and the bitter cold both mess with you, but for me it's no contest: I prefer the milder weather, darkness and all.

I moved from one of the sunniest US cities (Los Angeles) to one of the least sunny (Bellingham, WA; similar climate to Seattle, London, The Netherlands).  We're about as far north as you can get in the lower 48; actually north of every significant population center in eastern Canada.  There are plenty of people here who suffer from SAD during the long winter months.

However, I'm not finding the lack of sun to be an issue.  I attribute this to two things: my upbringing in overcast western MI, which had far worse winters; and my dogged determination to keep going outside and doing things.  I still find outdoor activity in natural settings to be rejuvenating even when the skies are gray and there's a bit of drizzle.  Heck, sometimes the drizzle can add to the enjoyment on a good hike. 

That said, I recognize that people are different, so if they get depressed by the dark, I'm not going to claim that a northern latitude is right for them if they just tweak a couple of things.  Maybe that won't work for them.

[Luke Warm]

I was thinking about how much things suck when it's dark outside when I go to work and when I leave work. Work seems to be the common denominator. It made me wonder if people got SAD back before there was such a thing as an 8 hour day in an office. Did the hunter/gatherers get SAD?

[GuitarStv]

I chuckle a bit when I hear people from the lower 48 talk about how long the winters are. For comparison, London, England has much shorter days in winter, and they are considerably further south than Berlin or all of Scandinavia. Even Paris, France is further North than St Paul. You are closer to the equator than the geographic North Pole.

The difference between Minneapolis and those European cities you mention is that Minneapolis has much harsher winter weather. While London does experience more darkness (about an hour less sunlight on the Winter Solstice), there are entire weeks in Minneapolis every winter where it's unsafe to go outside for 30 minutes with exposed skin. I went to visit family in that area over the holidays. On a "warm" (~15 F) day we did take the kids outside for some sledding, and I took a short walk in the woods, but beyond that we mostly sheltered inside.

Where I live now (Seattle) is much closer to London than Minneapolis in terms of darkness and climate during the winter. The darkness and the bitter cold both mess with you, but for me it's no contest: I prefer the milder weather, darkness and all.

I grew up in Northern Ontario.

Our town would be swinging between -30 to -50 for a solid two to three months each winter.  We were always outside.  Hiking, tobogganing, skating, cross country skiing, cutting firewood, playing road hockey, snowmobiling, dog sledding, building snow forts, etc.  Just dress appropriately and there's no problem (there are some weird things you have to learn - like you breathe through your nose because if you suck a big cold breath in through your mouth it will freeze your capillaries in your throat and you will start coughing up blood, and you blink often because it's not hard to get frostbite on your eyeballs - especially in the wind).  But there's certainly no reason to spend most of your time indoors!

I love cold weather.

[seattlecyclone]

I chuckle a bit when I hear people from the lower 48 talk about how long the winters are. For comparison, London, England has much shorter days in winter, and they are considerably further south than Berlin or all of Scandinavia. Even Paris, France is further North than St Paul. You are closer to the equator than the geographic North Pole.

The difference between Minneapolis and those European cities you mention is that Minneapolis has much harsher winter weather. While London does experience more darkness (about an hour less sunlight on the Winter Solstice), there are entire weeks in Minneapolis every winter where it's unsafe to go outside for 30 minutes with exposed skin. I went to visit family in that area over the holidays. On a "warm" (~15 F) day we did take the kids outside for some sledding, and I took a short walk in the woods, but beyond that we mostly sheltered inside.

Where I live now (Seattle) is much closer to London than Minneapolis in terms of darkness and climate during the winter. The darkness and the bitter cold both mess with you, but for me it's no contest: I prefer the milder weather, darkness and all.

I grew up in Northern Ontario.

Our town would be swinging between -30 to -50 for a solid two to three months each winter.  We were always outside.  Hiking, tobogganing, skating, cross country skiing, cutting firewood, playing road hockey, snowmobiling, dog sledding, building snow forts, etc.  Just dress appropriately and there's no problem (there are some weird things you have to learn - like you breathe through your nose because if you suck a big cold breath in through your mouth it will freeze your capillaries in your throat and you will start coughing up blood, and you blink often because it's not hard to get frostbite on your eyeballs - especially in the wind).  But there's certainly no reason to spend most of your time indoors!

I love cold weather.

Look, I grew up doing all that stuff too. I know how to dress appropriately for the weather and still do stuff outside in that environment, but most of the time I prefer to remain indoors when the temperature is cold enough to cause your eyelashes to freeze shut. To each their own though!

[Extramedium]

Like I said, we’ve chosen to stay in St. Paul. I’m not saying that the winters are too dark or too cold. We do fine in them, with a combination of loving outdoor sporty things and making the indoors cozier -fully embracing hygge.  I only meant that many people complain about the Minnesota winters, and it’s worth addressing directly. I know there are colder and darker places.  I visit some of them, and they’re great, too!

[314159]

The fastest falling real estate market in the country is back on our radar.  We were in San Francisco on the weekend and went to half a dozen open houses in some great neighborhoods.  The busiest property had two other couples, several were completely empty with a realtor on the sofa reading a book.  The market has really screeched to a halt it seems.  Let's see how far it falls in 2023.

Looks like you better hurry:

Over the last 12 months, San Francisco has seen the second-biggest worker population gain of any area in the United States, according to LinkedIn

Indeed, more people are now coming to San Francisco than leaving. By the end of last year, nearly two people were coming to the metropolitan area for every one that left

A reversal in population decline hasn’t yet shown up in other data sources, but lagging data from the US Postal Service does show a lot fewer people are leaving the San Francisco Bay Area than had been earlier in the pandemic.

https://www.vox.com/recode/2023/1/18/23542444/san-francisco-bay-area-population-moving-linkedin?fbclid=IwAR3swIGJEC-bSJS-l3CSDJ7T5OdQtunaaCtkCtPHr7csTkwr6heRBCdU42Y

Ha, my friends own the Fiat in the main photo of that article—they just sent me a link a few hours ago saying their car is famous!

Is that Duboce Triangle, @314159 ?

Not too far, I'd call it Lower Pacific Heights.

[Just Joe]

I was thinking about how much things suck when it's dark outside when I go to work and when I leave work. Work seems to be the common denominator. It made me wonder if people got SAD back before there was such a thing as an 8 hour day in an office. Did the hunter/gatherers get SAD?

Good question. This winter and the short days, and selling (giving) all my best daylight hours to my employer really affected me this year. Then a coworker-friend (another department) was dismissed and everything looked better. Thankful for our income and not needing to relocate to find work.   

[Cranky]

My wife and I both grew up in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area ("the Twin Cities").  We lived away for the first 12 years we lived together (New Orleans, DC, and Kigali, Rwanda) before moving back here with 2 young kids.  Our first winter back was one of the first years (maybe the first? I don't claim to be a meteorologist) of a really tough "Polar Vortex" winter, and we weren't really into it.  Our boiler pump broke one subzero January morning, and the house plummeted to close to freezing.  We had an emergency replacement of the boiler, pump, and water heater to keep the pipes from freezing and bursting.  And it was just tough to get used to again, and hadn't yet made or reconnected with friends at first.  So we started thinking about where else we could live.

So we started researching comparable cost of living indices for any city that looked: big enough for my metropolitan wife, with decent enough schools for public education, and with a warmer climate than Minnesota. We didn't need the COL to be the same or better, as long as predicted pay range for my profession was adjusted within reasonable closeness.  For instance, if New York had a much higher COL by 1.6x, but the physician assistants there made 1.5x or more than what I could make here, then it stayed on the list. 

There were a few places that were almost as good (Denver, Atlanta, I think -it was 11 years ago), a few that were as good or better, but less interesting (Omaha, somewhere I'm forgetting in New England).  But none was better.  We have some of the best schools in the country.  Consistently in the top 10 best cycling cities (either Mpls or St. Paul or both combined), and best city park systems.  Crime isn't especially high, and traffic is much better than other places we've lived and spent time.  And summers are lush, green, with long days and a true appreciation for the joy of a warm, sunny day.  Thing is, you have to put up with the long, dark winters.  Anyway, we're still here, and it's by choice.

I chuckle a bit when I hear people from the lower 48 talk about how long the winters are. For comparison, London, England has much shorter days in winter, and they are considerably further south than Berlin or all of Scandinavia. Even Paris, France is further North than St Paul. You are closer to the equator than the geographic North Pole.

I've been watching a lot of gardening videos this year, and I have been really surprised at how mild the climate is around London - you can grow some stuff all year round.

Meanwhile, I'm watching the snow pile up...

I do not like anything at all about winter. I always joked that I was the only person in Florida who loved the summer there. But I'm in Wisconsin and not Florida by my own choice, and I just have to put up with winter. Some people really like winter, I hear.

[former player]

My wife and I both grew up in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area ("the Twin Cities").  We lived away for the first 12 years we lived together (New Orleans, DC, and Kigali, Rwanda) before moving back here with 2 young kids.  Our first winter back was one of the first years (maybe the first? I don't claim to be a meteorologist) of a really tough "Polar Vortex" winter, and we weren't really into it.  Our boiler pump broke one subzero January morning, and the house plummeted to close to freezing.  We had an emergency replacement of the boiler, pump, and water heater to keep the pipes from freezing and bursting.  And it was just tough to get used to again, and hadn't yet made or reconnected with friends at first.  So we started thinking about where else we could live.

So we started researching comparable cost of living indices for any city that looked: big enough for my metropolitan wife, with decent enough schools for public education, and with a warmer climate than Minnesota. We didn't need the COL to be the same or better, as long as predicted pay range for my profession was adjusted within reasonable closeness.  For instance, if New York had a much higher COL by 1.6x, but the physician assistants there made 1.5x or more than what I could make here, then it stayed on the list. 

There were a few places that were almost as good (Denver, Atlanta, I think -it was 11 years ago), a few that were as good or better, but less interesting (Omaha, somewhere I'm forgetting in New England).  But none was better.  We have some of the best schools in the country.  Consistently in the top 10 best cycling cities (either Mpls or St. Paul or both combined), and best city park systems.  Crime isn't especially high, and traffic is much better than other places we've lived and spent time.  And summers are lush, green, with long days and a true appreciation for the joy of a warm, sunny day.  Thing is, you have to put up with the long, dark winters.  Anyway, we're still here, and it's by choice.

I chuckle a bit when I hear people from the lower 48 talk about how long the winters are. For comparison, London, England has much shorter days in winter, and they are considerably further south than Berlin or all of Scandinavia. Even Paris, France is further North than St Paul. You are closer to the equator than the geographic North Pole.

I've been watching a lot of gardening videos this year, and I have been really surprised at how mild the climate is around London - you can grow some stuff all year round.

Meanwhile, I'm watching the snow pile up...

I do not like anything at all about winter. I always joked that I was the only person in Florida who loved the summer there. But I'm in Wisconsin and not Florida by my own choice, and I just have to put up with winter. Some people really like winter, I hear.

Gulf Stream. A current from the south (Florida) that keeps most of GB and even further north much more temperate than the northern US and Canada.

Yes the Gulf Stream but also warm air coming up from the Carribean with it.  One explanation I heard is that the Rocky Mountains block the flow of air at our latitude (50 north) so it comes up from the south instead.

[Luke Warm]

Any thoughts on Hot Springs, Arkansas? Housing prices seem to be fairly cheap and there's a national park right in town. The mountain bike trails there got a high rating from IMBA.

[ChpBstrd]

Any thoughts on Hot Springs, Arkansas? Housing prices seem to be fairly cheap and there's a national park right in town. The mountain bike trails there got a high rating from IMBA.

I live a good distance away, but visit there often. HS seems like a great retirement destination. It's a resort/recreation town with a rich history, awesome hiking/biking, a horse racing track / casino with a fun vibe, and of course some very large freshwater lakes. This is a very low cost of living destination. It has a mix of characteristics of Louisville, KY, Eureka Springs, AR, the Fayetteville, AR metro, and I dare say New Orleans (for the miniature downtown bar scene and fun-loving attitude). The city's mentality is about having fun.

Upsides:

• Beautiful lakes, especially Lake Ouachita (pronounced "wa sha ta") with lots of options for camping, fishing, scuba, watersports, sailing, boat rentals, manmade beaches, etc. Lake Hamilton is closer to town, surrounded by condos and mansions, and full of boats. Lake Catherine is sort of a mixture of the two. All three lakes are long-established hydroelectric projects. Ouachita drains into Hamilton which drains into Catherine.
• Very cheap real estate and a generally low cost of living depending on how few motorized toys you can stand to own.
• The location is geologically stable, not generally prone to flooding, wildfires, or hurricanes.
• Mountain biking, as mentioned, though perhaps not as massively developed as Fayetteville, AR.
• White water canoeing / kayaking opportunities within a short drive. You do this in the springtime. You do the lakes in the summer. You hike in the fall/winter. You bike whenever.
• Very clean air and very clean tap water (they actually bottle and sell their tap water).
• Museums, history, and interesting geology. E.g. on some beaches of Lake Ouachita, like a Joplin campground, most of the rocks contain fossils!
• More amenities than a town, but fewer problems than a big city.
• H.S. is a good latitude for people who hate winter and never want to shovel snow again. It can snow, but maybe once a year with the slush lasting for 1-3 days.
• Nearby things to do include all the activities in Little Rock (a place most folks in H.S. are scared of, but which has anything you can't find in H.S.), digging for literal diamonds at the Crater of Diamonds state park, Mount Magazine, Mount Nebo, and Petit Jean Mountain state parks, etc. You're also in a great motorcycle touring area.

Downsides:

• H.S. is off the beaten path and not exactly an economic dynamo. Interstate 40 bypassed the city long ago, though a four-lane highway connects the city to the interstate 30-40 miles away. The closest international airport is probably Memphis, at ~3 hours away. The closest regional airport is Little Rock at just over an hour away. The economy is dependent upon tourism, yet not particularly volatile because they are the low-cost provider for tourism; when recession hits tourists trade down to H.S. instead of going to fancier places. I would call the lakes a durable asset, but I wonder about the future of horse racing and people's appreciation for the place's museums and history. If you raise your kids here, expect (hope) that they'll probably move away in search of economic or educational opportunity. On the bright side, Arkansas' colleges are dirt cheap, especially for residents, and a statewide lottery provides scholarships on top of that.
• H.S. is not a college town like Fayetteville, Tulsa, Springfield, etc. and it isn't a hub of industry either. You'll probably find the education level of your neighbors a bit low, especially the crowd in their early 20's. A typical conversation might be more about getting one's jet ski running more so than science, history, arts, or literature. It's blue collar and non-elite.
• Like everywhere in Arkansas, June-August usually means a 90+ degree day with relative humidity over 80%. If you don't mind getting a little sticky, H.S. is the place to be because of its proximity to the lakes. For the cost of a small day use fee at the various parks, campsites, and marinas, you can swim in the lakes without a wetsuit about 5 months out of the year and it feels very much like a tropical vacation.
• H.S. has a neat historical downtown area with cool BnB's, but the surrounding old neighborhoods have not seen revitalization to the extent of many other places. The city is small enough there's not as much incentive to cut commutes. Yet the area attracts artists and non-conformists so there's possibility! Sprawl is occurring thanks to a bypass highway, cheap land, and geographically distributed employment. You can cheaply live in either an old downtown craftsman or a very large newer home on the periphery of town.
• Arkansas is a red state, which means underfunded public schools, slum neighborhoods in every city, car dependency and sprawl, a lack of gynecological services, widespread skepticism about scientific facts, casual racism, brain drain for medical specialists, and periodic invitations to join someone or another's church. Your sensitivity to these factors may determine your enjoyment of the place. Overall though H.S. is a friendly place, and you are well compensated for the downsides via a low cost of living.
• Car ownership is a must wherever you live in H.S. You will eventually feel immense pressure to trade that car up to a truck and boat!
• Visitors from out West might be surprised by some of our parasites, like mosquitos, ticks, seed ticks, and chiggers, and by our poison ivy, which is all over the woods except in the winter.
• If you're looking for the next big thing, H.S. is probably not it. Expect nothing to change in the next 20-30 years. There are just no catalysts. In this regard it's a lot different than the booming and similar Northwest Arkansas area.

I'd suggest putting H.S. on your list of places to visit. It costs virtually nothing anyway. Maybe stay downtown at the historic Arlington Hotel and hit the bike trails, spa museums, bars, art shops, observation tower, Mid-America Museum, etc. Definitely visit lake Ouachita or camp on its shores. If you visit in the spring, go to a horse race, drink a mint julep, and waste a few bucks betting on the dark horse for the giggles.

If your tastes are more suburban / golf-y, check out Hot Springs Village (a separate town/development just to the north). If you want a bigger scene with lots of employment, lots of growth and development, and slightly higher costs, etc. check out Northwest Arkansas.

[stoaX]

Any thoughts on Hot Springs, Arkansas? Housing prices seem to be fairly cheap and there's a national park right in town. The mountain bike trails there got a high rating from IMBA.

I live a good distance away, but visit there often. HS seems like a great retirement destination. It's a resort/recreation town with a rich history, awesome hiking/biking, a horse racing track / casino with a fun vibe, and of course some very large freshwater lakes. This is a very low cost of living destination. It has a mix of characteristics of Louisville, KY, Eureka Springs, AR, the Fayetteville, AR metro, and I dare say New Orleans (for the miniature downtown bar scene and fun-loving attitude). The city's mentality is about having fun.

Upsides:

• Beautiful lakes, especially Lake Ouachita (pronounced "wa sha ta") with lots of options for camping, fishing, scuba, watersports, sailing, boat rentals, manmade beaches, etc. Lake Hamilton is closer to town, surrounded by condos and mansions, and full of boats. Lake Catherine is sort of a mixture of the two. All three lakes are long-established hydroelectric projects. Ouachita drains into Hamilton which drains into Catherine.
• Very cheap real estate and a generally low cost of living depending on how few motorized toys you can stand to own.
• The location is geologically stable, not generally prone to flooding, wildfires, or hurricanes.
• Mountain biking, as mentioned, though perhaps not as massively developed as Fayetteville, AR.
• White water canoeing / kayaking opportunities within a short drive. You do this in the springtime. You do the lakes in the summer. You hike in the fall/winter. You bike whenever.
• Very clean air and very clean tap water (they actually bottle and sell their tap water).
• Museums, history, and interesting geology. E.g. on some beaches of Lake Ouachita, like a Joplin campground, most of the rocks contain fossils!
• More amenities than a town, but fewer problems than a big city.
• H.S. is a good latitude for people who hate winter and never want to shovel snow again. It can snow, but maybe once a year with the slush lasting for 1-3 days.
• Nearby things to do include all the activities in Little Rock (a place most folks in H.S. are scared of, but which has anything you can't find in H.S.), digging for literal diamonds at the Crater of Diamonds state park, Mount Magazine, Mount Nebo, and Petit Jean Mountain state parks, etc. You're also in a great motorcycle touring area.

Downsides:

• H.S. is off the beaten path and not exactly an economic dynamo. Interstate 40 bypassed the city long ago, though a four-lane highway connects the city to the interstate 30-40 miles away. The closest international airport is probably Memphis, at ~3 hours away. The closest regional airport is Little Rock at just over an hour away. The economy is dependent upon tourism, yet not particularly volatile because they are the low-cost provider for tourism; when recession hits tourists trade down to H.S. instead of going to fancier places. I would call the lakes a durable asset, but I wonder about the future of horse racing and people's appreciation for the place's museums and history. If you raise your kids here, expect (hope) that they'll probably move away in search of economic or educational opportunity. On the bright side, Arkansas' colleges are dirt cheap, especially for residents, and a statewide lottery provides scholarships on top of that.
• H.S. is not a college town like Fayetteville, Tulsa, Springfield, etc. and it isn't a hub of industry either. You'll probably find the education level of your neighbors a bit low, especially the crowd in their early 20's. A typical conversation might be more about getting one's jet ski running more so than science, history, arts, or literature. It's blue collar and non-elite.
• Like everywhere in Arkansas, June-August usually means a 90+ degree day with relative humidity over 80%. If you don't mind getting a little sticky, H.S. is the place to be because of its proximity to the lakes. For the cost of a small day use fee at the various parks, campsites, and marinas, you can swim in the lakes without a wetsuit about 5 months out of the year and it feels very much like a tropical vacation.
• H.S. has a neat historical downtown area with cool BnB's, but the surrounding old neighborhoods have not seen revitalization to the extent of many other places. The city is small enough there's not as much incentive to cut commutes. Yet the area attracts artists and non-conformists so there's possibility! Sprawl is occurring thanks to a bypass highway, cheap land, and geographically distributed employment. You can cheaply live in either an old downtown craftsman or a very large newer home on the periphery of town.
• Arkansas is a red state, which means underfunded public schools, slum neighborhoods in every city, car dependency and sprawl, a lack of gynecological services, widespread skepticism about scientific facts, casual racism, brain drain for medical specialists, and periodic invitations to join someone or another's church. Your sensitivity to these factors may determine your enjoyment of the place. Overall though H.S. is a friendly place, and you are well compensated for the downsides via a low cost of living.
• Car ownership is a must wherever you live in H.S. You will eventually feel immense pressure to trade that car up to a truck and boat!
• Visitors from out West might be surprised by some of our parasites, like mosquitos, ticks, seed ticks, and chiggers, and by our poison ivy, which is all over the woods except in the winter.
• If you're looking for the next big thing, H.S. is probably not it. Expect nothing to change in the next 20-30 years. There are just no catalysts. In this regard it's a lot different than the booming and similar Northwest Arkansas area.

I'd suggest putting H.S. on your list of places to visit. It costs virtually nothing anyway. Maybe stay downtown at the historic Arlington Hotel and hit the bike trails, spa museums, bars, art shops, observation tower, Mid-America Museum, etc. Definitely visit lake Ouachita or camp on its shores. If you visit in the spring, go to a horse race, drink a mint julep, and waste a few bucks betting on the dark horse for the giggles.

If your tastes are more suburban / golf-y, check out Hot Springs Village (a separate town/development just to the north). If you want a bigger scene with lots of employment, lots of growth and development, and slightly higher costs, etc. check out Northwest Arkansas.

Well written and lots of good information - thanks!

[Luke Warm]

Any thoughts on Hot Springs, Arkansas? Housing prices seem to be fairly cheap and there's a national park right in town. The mountain bike trails there got a high rating from IMBA.

I live a good distance away, but visit there often. HS seems like a great retirement destination. It's a resort/recreation town with a rich history, awesome hiking/biking, a horse racing track / casino with a fun vibe, and of course some very large freshwater lakes. This is a very low cost of living destination. It has a mix of characteristics of Louisville, KY, Eureka Springs, AR, the Fayetteville, AR metro, and I dare say New Orleans (for the miniature downtown bar scene and fun-loving attitude). The city's mentality is about having fun.

Upsides:

• Beautiful lakes, especially Lake Ouachita (pronounced "wa sha ta") with lots of options for camping, fishing, scuba, watersports, sailing, boat rentals, manmade beaches, etc. Lake Hamilton is closer to town, surrounded by condos and mansions, and full of boats. Lake Catherine is sort of a mixture of the two. All three lakes are long-established hydroelectric projects. Ouachita drains into Hamilton which drains into Catherine.
• Very cheap real estate and a generally low cost of living depending on how few motorized toys you can stand to own.
• The location is geologically stable, not generally prone to flooding, wildfires, or hurricanes.
• Mountain biking, as mentioned, though perhaps not as massively developed as Fayetteville, AR.
• White water canoeing / kayaking opportunities within a short drive. You do this in the springtime. You do the lakes in the summer. You hike in the fall/winter. You bike whenever.
• Very clean air and very clean tap water (they actually bottle and sell their tap water).
• Museums, history, and interesting geology. E.g. on some beaches of Lake Ouachita, like a Joplin campground, most of the rocks contain fossils!
• More amenities than a town, but fewer problems than a big city.
• H.S. is a good latitude for people who hate winter and never want to shovel snow again. It can snow, but maybe once a year with the slush lasting for 1-3 days.
• Nearby things to do include all the activities in Little Rock (a place most folks in H.S. are scared of, but which has anything you can't find in H.S.), digging for literal diamonds at the Crater of Diamonds state park, Mount Magazine, Mount Nebo, and Petit Jean Mountain state parks, etc. You're also in a great motorcycle touring area.

Downsides:

• H.S. is off the beaten path and not exactly an economic dynamo. Interstate 40 bypassed the city long ago, though a four-lane highway connects the city to the interstate 30-40 miles away. The closest international airport is probably Memphis, at ~3 hours away. The closest regional airport is Little Rock at just over an hour away. The economy is dependent upon tourism, yet not particularly volatile because they are the low-cost provider for tourism; when recession hits tourists trade down to H.S. instead of going to fancier places. I would call the lakes a durable asset, but I wonder about the future of horse racing and people's appreciation for the place's museums and history. If you raise your kids here, expect (hope) that they'll probably move away in search of economic or educational opportunity. On the bright side, Arkansas' colleges are dirt cheap, especially for residents, and a statewide lottery provides scholarships on top of that.
• H.S. is not a college town like Fayetteville, Tulsa, Springfield, etc. and it isn't a hub of industry either. You'll probably find the education level of your neighbors a bit low, especially the crowd in their early 20's. A typical conversation might be more about getting one's jet ski running more so than science, history, arts, or literature. It's blue collar and non-elite.
• Like everywhere in Arkansas, June-August usually means a 90+ degree day with relative humidity over 80%. If you don't mind getting a little sticky, H.S. is the place to be because of its proximity to the lakes. For the cost of a small day use fee at the various parks, campsites, and marinas, you can swim in the lakes without a wetsuit about 5 months out of the year and it feels very much like a tropical vacation.
• H.S. has a neat historical downtown area with cool BnB's, but the surrounding old neighborhoods have not seen revitalization to the extent of many other places. The city is small enough there's not as much incentive to cut commutes. Yet the area attracts artists and non-conformists so there's possibility! Sprawl is occurring thanks to a bypass highway, cheap land, and geographically distributed employment. You can cheaply live in either an old downtown craftsman or a very large newer home on the periphery of town.
• Arkansas is a red state, which means underfunded public schools, slum neighborhoods in every city, car dependency and sprawl, a lack of gynecological services, widespread skepticism about scientific facts, casual racism, brain drain for medical specialists, and periodic invitations to join someone or another's church. Your sensitivity to these factors may determine your enjoyment of the place. Overall though H.S. is a friendly place, and you are well compensated for the downsides via a low cost of living.
• Car ownership is a must wherever you live in H.S. You will eventually feel immense pressure to trade that car up to a truck and boat!
• Visitors from out West might be surprised by some of our parasites, like mosquitos, ticks, seed ticks, and chiggers, and by our poison ivy, which is all over the woods except in the winter.
• If you're looking for the next big thing, H.S. is probably not it. Expect nothing to change in the next 20-30 years. There are just no catalysts. In this regard it's a lot different than the booming and similar Northwest Arkansas area.

I'd suggest putting H.S. on your list of places to visit. It costs virtually nothing anyway. Maybe stay downtown at the historic Arlington Hotel and hit the bike trails, spa museums, bars, art shops, observation tower, Mid-America Museum, etc. Definitely visit lake Ouachita or camp on its shores. If you visit in the spring, go to a horse race, drink a mint julep, and waste a few bucks betting on the dark horse for the giggles.

If your tastes are more suburban / golf-y, check out Hot Springs Village (a separate town/development just to the north). If you want a bigger scene with lots of employment, lots of growth and development, and slightly higher costs, etc. check out Northwest Arkansas.

Well written and lots of good information - thanks!

I agree. Just doing a google streetview tour it looks exactly like you describe it. We plan on doing a road trip to Arkansas later in the year so we'll give Hot Springs a look. I noticed Bill Clinton's childhood home is on Zillow. It seemed reasonably priced but it needs lots of work.

[mizzourah2006]

If you want a bigger scene with lots of employment, lots of growth and development, and slightly higher costs, etc. check out Northwest Arkansas.

Agree 100% with what ChpBstrd said. HS is a cool area to visit. They have some old bed and breakfasts right up the hill from the main street, some neat bars, little breweries, and the bathhouses are interesting to visit, but I don't think I'd want to live there. It's not really near anything. I'd prefer to live in Eureka Springs if you are interested in small town vibes. Plus Eureka has a much better MTB scene with Passion Play and Lake Leatherwood right there and NWA is only about an hour away. I have nothing but good things to say about Northwest Arkansas. We moved here about 10 years ago and we've really loved it. I even went fully remote and we had an opportunity to go wherever and we chose to stay. But it seems the secret is out a bit. When Covid hit this place exploded. So many people took the remote work as an opportunity to move here and almost all said the reason they moved was for the outdoor life.

I guess a lot of people complain about the politics in Arkansas and I think if that's a real big part of your persona it'd probably be tough to live here, but almost all of my friends tend to be pretty liberal. But, I hang out with mostly very highly educated people, most of my closest friends all have PhDs (i.e. corporate people or professors at UofA) and/or mountain bikers and they all tend to be liberal. If you are big into religion your friends will almost certainly be very conservative.

[beekayworld]

I I've heard that Houston has no zoning at all, has that made for more walkability than other big Texas cities?  I've never been there. 
 

Nope. But your house can be "conveniently" located between a gas station and an antique store, U-Haul rental place, tire store, landscaper selling large trees, a tattoo parlor, or other businesses you aren't going to be walking to regularly.

[YoungGranny]

A random tip for those considering a visit to Hot Springs, Arkansas - if you can make it to the Poetry night on Wednesday at Kollective coffee you won't regret it. Cute coffee shop, and an amazing community of people. They accept visitors and anyone can get up and read. I was truly blown away by my experience at it 4 years ago and I'm not typically a big poetry person :) https://hotspringsarts.org/poetry/#:~:text=Hot%20Springs%20has%20been%20hosting,Avenue%20in%20downtown%20Hot%20Springs.

[GilesMM]

I I've heard that Houston has no zoning at all, has that made for more walkability than other big Texas cities?  I've never been there. 
 

The city has no formal zoning but many cities and suburbs within the metro area have fairly strict rules (e.g. West Univ, Bellaire, River Oaks) so it's not as bad as it sounds.  In addition, blocks in the city can apply for setback rules, etc, as long as all the neighbors agree to them.  This has proven a popular way of keeping developers from jamming 3-4 townhouses on an lot amid older bungalows and building right to the sidewalk.


Houston is not very walkable due to 1) appallingly hot and humid weather most of the time, 2) a city of the 60s/70s sprawl designed around cars, and 3) a massive metro sprawl about 60 miles across.   Worse yet, there really is no public effective public transportation.

It is a city of great contrasts.  Extremely friendly, cheap and liveable in many ways but with appalling weather, traffic, some crime, high property taxes, etc.

[Dave1442397]

I I've heard that Houston has no zoning at all, has that made for more walkability than other big Texas cities?  I've never been there. 
 

The city has no formal zoning but many cities and suburbs within the metro area have fairly strict rules (e.g. West Univ, Bellaire, River Oaks) so it's not as bad as it sounds.  In addition, blocks in the city can apply for setback rules, etc, as long as all the neighbors agree to them.  This has proven a popular way of keeping developers from jamming 3-4 townhouses on an lot amid older bungalows and building right to the sidewalk.


Houston is not very walkable due to 1) appallingly hot and humid weather most of the time, 2) a city of the 60s/70s sprawl designed around cars, and 3) a massive metro sprawl about 60 miles across.   Worse yet, there really is no public effective public transportation.

It is a city of great contrasts.  Extremely friendly, cheap and liveable in many ways but with appalling weather, traffic, some crime, high property taxes, etc.

My sister lived in Houston for a while, and I went to visit her in the summer. Not recommended! As far as walkability goes, it's more a case of dashing from one air-conditioned spot to another. Walking from the car to the mall entrance was enough to leave me a sweaty mess.

We didn't have to deal with traffic much, but we did make the mistake of leaving the Galleria mall just before rush hour, and it took almost an hour to drive the six miles back to my sister's place.

I had a friend also living there at the time. He had a typical 3br house. When we visited, he first showed me how small the yard was, and then said it didn't matter, because the only time he went out there was to use the grill. It was too hot and humid to actually sit out there.

Another thing I noticed was how cold it was in restaurants. Apparently if the temp hits 100F outside, the restaurant must set their thermostat to 50F. No kidding, it was so cold I would have left before ordering if it were up to me. It was the same everywhere we went, but at least I learned to bring something warm to wear after the first time. The food was almost cold by the time it got to the table, and these were pretty nice restaurants.

[Just Joe]

Saw this today on YouTube: https://www.strongtowns.org/strongesttown

Might contain good candidates for anyone looking to relocate away from a big metro area.

Count me as a fan of these smaller places like Brattleboro as seen in the video. No idea of what it actually is like of course.

[FINate]

Saw this today on YouTube: https://www.strongtowns.org/strongesttown

Might contain good candidates for anyone looking to relocate away from a big metro area.

Count me as a fan of these smaller places like Brattleboro as seen in the video. No idea of what it actually is like of course.

This is a good example of why towns/cities are really about the community, connection, and people. It's not that Brattleboro doesn't have a nice natural or built environment, but rather the people and their planning that make it a special place. I hope they can hold on to that as more people move there, as opposed to so many places in the US that put up exclusive barriers that end up eroding community.

[Sanitary Stache]

I am super skeptical of Brattleboro being a strong town when it’s population has been constant for 30 years. Let’s see how strong they are once the status quo is challenged.

[ChpBstrd]

I am super skeptical of Brattleboro being a strong town when it’s population has been constant for 30 years. Let’s see how strong they are once the status quo is challenged.

Eh... most people seem not to want this definition of the good life, and that's why they strive to live in expensive places where they can sit in traffic jams. They'd look at a small town like this and ask "how much money can I make there?" or say "I bet there's no jobs." and turn back to their hour-long commutes and cookie-cutter subdivisions.

Sure, places like Brattleboro appeal to lots of people, but many more would find the "amenities" to be po-dunk and amateurish compared to what their city has (for a $50 admission fee). 

[YK-Phil]

Count me as a fan of these smaller places like Brattleboro as seen in the video. No idea of what it actually is like of course.

There are still dozens of pleasant little towns in the USA like Brattleboro where I'd happily settled for the rest of my life. One place I really love is Patagonia, AZ. Unfortunately, it is very difficult for Canadians to pack up and move to the USA.

[wenchsenior]

Count me as a fan of these smaller places like Brattleboro as seen in the video. No idea of what it actually is like of course.

There are still dozens of pleasant little towns in the USA like Brattleboro where I'd happily settled for the rest of my life. One place I really love is Patagonia, AZ. Unfortunately, it is very difficult for Canadians to pack up and move to the USA.

Ah, one of the Old Stomping Grounds.  Used to work on a raptor project on Sonoita Creek.

[Just Joe]

Count me as a fan of these smaller places like Brattleboro as seen in the video. No idea of what it actually is like of course.

There are still dozens of pleasant little towns in the USA like Brattleboro where I'd happily settled for the rest of my life. One place I really love is Patagonia, AZ. Unfortunately, it is very difficult for Canadians to pack up and move to the USA.

Definitely. We found another "good one" and have been here for several decades now.