Author Topic: If you could live anywhere in the US...?  (Read 47182 times)

Log

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #350 on: January 11, 2023, 01:35:26 PM »
In the latest edition of: "I went to a city I've heard is good and it was good," Washington, DC is a pretty kickass city and I would gladly live there. Good mixture of uses and walkability, the Metro system works great, it would be easy and enjoyable to live car-free there. Good train access up the Northeast corridor. I'm into the demographic tilt towards a bunch of highly educated public policy wonks, though the inability to escape political talk might grate after a time. Biggest urbanism complaints are just that they need to continue densifying (like every US city...) and that many streets were way too wide.

In my rather time-limited exploration, neighborhood highlights were Georgetown, Adams Morgan, and Q St west of Dupont Circle. I'll have to check out Columbia Heights and Capitol Hill next time I visit.


I live nearby, and agree DC is a nice city. At not just the mall and museums! (but the free museums are great with kids). Areas like Logan and Dupont circle, and around the zoo are also nice! Metro is descent, amazing by US standards. Close access to international airports, coast/beaches, the bay(!), mountains. Philadelphia, NYC few hours away. If you have $900,000+ you can get a nice charming little house in a walkable area.. lol
Every time I think about moving it's missing several of the amenities around this area (which of course cause a lot of people to want to live here..)

Re: housing costs, it just came up in a video that I was watching that the cost difference between renting in LCOL vs HCOL cities is consistently smaller than the cost difference for buying. The renter life is also validated in "The Simple Path to Wealth" which I just finally got around to reading. Seems like a lot of the hysteria over it being impossible to live in HCOL cities is exacerbated by the obsession with home ownership.

Last minute addition to the thought, looks like my beloved nerdy Urbanist Youtubers coordinated topics this week.

PDXTabs

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #351 on: January 11, 2023, 01:38:38 PM »
The renter life is also validated in "The Simple Path to Wealth" which I just finally got around to reading. Seems like a lot of the hysteria over it being impossible to live in HCOL cities is exacerbated by the obsession with home ownership.

I like that book. I also strongly recommend his new book: How I Lost Money in Real Estate Before It Was Fashionable

Villanelle

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #352 on: January 11, 2023, 06:04:59 PM »
In the latest edition of: "I went to a city I've heard is good and it was good," Washington, DC is a pretty kickass city and I would gladly live there. Good mixture of uses and walkability, the Metro system works great, it would be easy and enjoyable to live car-free there. Good train access up the Northeast corridor. I'm into the demographic tilt towards a bunch of highly educated public policy wonks, though the inability to escape political talk might grate after a time. Biggest urbanism complaints are just that they need to continue densifying (like every US city...) and that many streets were way too wide.

In my rather time-limited exploration, neighborhood highlights were Georgetown, Adams Morgan, and Q St west of Dupont Circle. I'll have to check out Columbia Heights and Capitol Hill next time I visit.


I live nearby, and agree DC is a nice city. At not just the mall and museums! (but the free museums are great with kids). Areas like Logan and Dupont circle, and around the zoo are also nice! Metro is descent, amazing by US standards. Close access to international airports, coast/beaches, the bay(!), mountains. Philadelphia, NYC few hours away. If you have $900,000+ you can get a nice charming little house in a walkable area.. lol
Every time I think about moving it's missing several of the amenities around this area (which of course cause a lot of people to want to live here..)

I don't think $900k buys you a house in DC unless you are miles from a metro station and/or well out of the heart of DC. 

Log

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #353 on: January 11, 2023, 10:12:22 PM »
In the latest edition of: "I went to a city I've heard is good and it was good," Washington, DC is a pretty kickass city and I would gladly live there. Good mixture of uses and walkability, the Metro system works great, it would be easy and enjoyable to live car-free there. Good train access up the Northeast corridor. I'm into the demographic tilt towards a bunch of highly educated public policy wonks, though the inability to escape political talk might grate after a time. Biggest urbanism complaints are just that they need to continue densifying (like every US city...) and that many streets were way too wide.

In my rather time-limited exploration, neighborhood highlights were Georgetown, Adams Morgan, and Q St west of Dupont Circle. I'll have to check out Columbia Heights and Capitol Hill next time I visit.


I live nearby, and agree DC is a nice city. At not just the mall and museums! (but the free museums are great with kids). Areas like Logan and Dupont circle, and around the zoo are also nice! Metro is descent, amazing by US standards. Close access to international airports, coast/beaches, the bay(!), mountains. Philadelphia, NYC few hours away. If you have $900,000+ you can get a nice charming little house in a walkable area.. lol
Every time I think about moving it's missing several of the amenities around this area (which of course cause a lot of people to want to live here..)

I don't think $900k buys you a house in DC unless you are miles from a metro station and/or well out of the heart of DC.

A cursory glance at Zillow filtered for houses or townhomes from $800k-900k reveals a multitude of options in the northern and eastern parts of the city, including several which are extremely close to Metro stops and seem at a glance to be nicely fixed up. Yeah, we get it, expensive cities are expensive. We don't need to constantly hyperbolize the issue.

If you open your search up to condos, there are multitudes of spacious and modern options much closer to the center of the city and/or at lower price points.

dang1

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #354 on: January 12, 2023, 12:17:41 AM »
got 250m laying around: World's Highest Apartment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLxi1kzpkQY&ab_channel=ArchitecturalDigest

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #355 on: January 12, 2023, 06:38:22 AM »
I tend to agree that density is the only real solution to the housing issues in the US, but man, now that we’ve got kids it would be rough moving into an apartment again. Our neighbors would fucking HATE us, kids are loud. And if one of my neighbors woke up my kid in the middle of the night after I spent the hour+ that it takes to get them down, I’d probably be ready to murder them too.

Apartment living would have to be DRAMATICALLY cheaper for me to give up my detached house.

But it isn't either-or. You can conceivably have a six story apartment building, some row houses (aka terraced houses), and single family detached houses on the same block. I mean, if there weren't laws against it.

EDITed to add: I've lived in a couple row houses. No complaints, would happily do it again.

Right, but wouldn’t people just choose the SFH option and make that the more profitable product for builders to produce? I think that’s the case in the US right now—people that can afford to buy a house want a SFH, so that’s what they buy and therefore, that’s what builders build. End result:sprawl.

But it's not, since 75% of land is zoned as SFH only! it's illegal to build anything else. People never have to option to choose something else, so we don't' actually know.
https://www.planetizen.com/definition/single-family-zoning

True.  It would be interesting to bust up the zoning a bit and see what happens.  I've heard that Houston has no zoning at all, has that made for more walkability than other big Texas cities?  I've never been there. 

One issue we have in the Greater Asheville Area is that the county government is very anti-infrastructure of any kind (they've got a "if you don't build it they won't come" philosophy) so bike lanes, sidewalks, non-dead end roads and turn lanes are not something they do here. The result is that any time there is an apartment complex built, there is a big bump in traffic because nobody has thought to try to make it easier for the 300 new people who now live there to get where they need to go.  This pattern has been repeated over and over again in the last 10 years so the area south of Asheville is a nightmare to get around and now everyone protests when new apartments are going to be built. 

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #356 on: January 12, 2023, 07:14:04 AM »
I tend to agree that density is the only real solution to the housing issues in the US, but man, now that we’ve got kids it would be rough moving into an apartment again. Our neighbors would fucking HATE us, kids are loud. And if one of my neighbors woke up my kid in the middle of the night after I spent the hour+ that it takes to get them down, I’d probably be ready to murder them too.

Apartment living would have to be DRAMATICALLY cheaper for me to give up my detached house.

But it isn't either-or. You can conceivably have a six story apartment building, some row houses (aka terraced houses), and single family detached houses on the same block. I mean, if there weren't laws against it.

EDITed to add: I've lived in a couple row houses. No complaints, would happily do it again.

Right, but wouldn’t people just choose the SFH option and make that the more profitable product for builders to produce? I think that’s the case in the US right now—people that can afford to buy a house want a SFH, so that’s what they buy and therefore, that’s what builders build. End result:sprawl.

But it's not, since 75% of land is zoned as SFH only! it's illegal to build anything else. People never have to option to choose something else, so we don't' actually know.
https://www.planetizen.com/definition/single-family-zoning

True.  It would be interesting to bust up the zoning a bit and see what happens.  I've heard that Houston has no zoning at all, has that made for more walkability than other big Texas cities?  I've never been there. 

One issue we have in the Greater Asheville Area is that the county government is very anti-infrastructure of any kind (they've got a "if you don't build it they won't come" philosophy) so bike lanes, sidewalks, non-dead end roads and turn lanes are not something they do here. The result is that any time there is an apartment complex built, there is a big bump in traffic because nobody has thought to try to make it easier for the 300 new people who now live there to get where they need to go.  This pattern has been repeated over and over again in the last 10 years so the area south of Asheville is a nightmare to get around and now everyone protests when new apartments are going to be built.

It's a feedback loop: communities create zoning laws to prioritize SFH (and to keep out undesirables, whether that's explicit or not), builders focus on SFH, consumers come to view SFH as a mark of achievement, then those homeowners push for more SFH zoning to protect the value of their most valuable holding.

Thankfully there's a lot of real-world examples to show it doesn't have to be this way. Other developed countries (and even some municipalities) have focused on mixed-use neighborhoods, smaller minimum dwelling sizes and a greater policy emphasis on attached dwellings.  Lo and behold, in those places the desire to own a SFH is not nearly as strong, and a large chunk of the community prefers the benefits from this type of zoning (e.g. walkability, larger shared green spaces, reduced ownership costs)

Scandium

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #357 on: January 12, 2023, 08:21:05 AM »
I tend to agree that density is the only real solution to the housing issues in the US, but man, now that we’ve got kids it would be rough moving into an apartment again. Our neighbors would fucking HATE us, kids are loud. And if one of my neighbors woke up my kid in the middle of the night after I spent the hour+ that it takes to get them down, I’d probably be ready to murder them too.

Apartment living would have to be DRAMATICALLY cheaper for me to give up my detached house.

But it isn't either-or. You can conceivably have a six story apartment building, some row houses (aka terraced houses), and single family detached houses on the same block. I mean, if there weren't laws against it.

EDITed to add: I've lived in a couple row houses. No complaints, would happily do it again.

Right, but wouldn’t people just choose the SFH option and make that the more profitable product for builders to produce? I think that’s the case in the US right now—people that can afford to buy a house want a SFH, so that’s what they buy and therefore, that’s what builders build. End result:sprawl.

But it's not, since 75% of land is zoned as SFH only! it's illegal to build anything else. People never have to option to choose something else, so we don't' actually know.
https://www.planetizen.com/definition/single-family-zoning

True.  It would be interesting to bust up the zoning a bit and see what happens.  I've heard that Houston has no zoning at all, has that made for more walkability than other big Texas cities?  I've never been there. 

One issue we have in the Greater Asheville Area is that the county government is very anti-infrastructure of any kind (they've got a "if you don't build it they won't come" philosophy) so bike lanes, sidewalks, non-dead end roads and turn lanes are not something they do here. The result is that any time there is an apartment complex built, there is a big bump in traffic because nobody has thought to try to make it easier for the 300 new people who now live there to get where they need to go.  This pattern has been repeated over and over again in the last 10 years so the area south of Asheville is a nightmare to get around and now everyone protests when new apartments are going to be built.

It's a feedback loop: communities create zoning laws to prioritize SFH (and to keep out undesirables, whether that's explicit or not), builders focus on SFH, consumers come to view SFH as a mark of achievement, then those homeowners push for more SFH zoning to protect the value of their most valuable holding.

I think it's also an issue of more money = more power. Either through exclusionary zoning as you say. But even when there is a free for all (i.e. houston). Developers will cater to the top to make as much as possible; the cheapest to build, most expensive houses as dense as possible. So we get smashed together huge mcmansions in the middle of nowhere with no infrastructure other than a wide, curved road with no sidewalk.

No, where there is no zoning they won't build dense, affordable homes (and less affordable ones) close to public transit, walkable streets and mixed with commercial. That requires planning, coordination of architectural, urban design, public infrastructure etc, and is not the most profitable. Even uncle bob's builders can slap together a Mcmansion from a pre-set plan in the middle of a former corn field and connect it to a road and utilities. It might not even fall down before the warranty expires. To get a mix of homes for a range of budgets require government to force the developers to consider others than just the most well-off.

Log

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #358 on: January 12, 2023, 09:24:07 AM »
I tend to agree that density is the only real solution to the housing issues in the US, but man, now that we’ve got kids it would be rough moving into an apartment again. Our neighbors would fucking HATE us, kids are loud. And if one of my neighbors woke up my kid in the middle of the night after I spent the hour+ that it takes to get them down, I’d probably be ready to murder them too.

Apartment living would have to be DRAMATICALLY cheaper for me to give up my detached house.

But it isn't either-or. You can conceivably have a six story apartment building, some row houses (aka terraced houses), and single family detached houses on the same block. I mean, if there weren't laws against it.

EDITed to add: I've lived in a couple row houses. No complaints, would happily do it again.

Right, but wouldn’t people just choose the SFH option and make that the more profitable product for builders to produce? I think that’s the case in the US right now—people that can afford to buy a house want a SFH, so that’s what they buy and therefore, that’s what builders build. End result:sprawl.

But it's not, since 75% of land is zoned as SFH only! it's illegal to build anything else. People never have to option to choose something else, so we don't' actually know.
https://www.planetizen.com/definition/single-family-zoning

True.  It would be interesting to bust up the zoning a bit and see what happens.  I've heard that Houston has no zoning at all, has that made for more walkability than other big Texas cities?  I've never been there. 

One issue we have in the Greater Asheville Area is that the county government is very anti-infrastructure of any kind (they've got a "if you don't build it they won't come" philosophy) so bike lanes, sidewalks, non-dead end roads and turn lanes are not something they do here. The result is that any time there is an apartment complex built, there is a big bump in traffic because nobody has thought to try to make it easier for the 300 new people who now live there to get where they need to go.  This pattern has been repeated over and over again in the last 10 years so the area south of Asheville is a nightmare to get around and now everyone protests when new apartments are going to be built.

I think the Houston issue is more complicated than just the lack of zoning. They do have other building codes that still contribute to sprawl, and a lot of walkability has to do with the streets as much as the buildings. Most of Houston's streets are too wide and have high speed limits, and many lack sidewalks. There are still random dead-ends and cul de sacs that don't have a through path for pedestrians. Along with a "car is king" culture, it can feel very alienating and dangerous to walk there. Then when you finally reach a destination, you likely have to cross a large parking lot.

That said, there are significant benefits to the lack of zoning. The city of Houston has only a marginally lower population density than the city of Dallas, but that obfuscates the fact that Houston has a far larger land area. I expect if you measured out a central portion of Houston of the same area as Dallas, the population density would be much higher. This abundance of housing, allowed by the lack of zoning, is a big part of what makes Houston housing relatively affordable compared to other Metro Areas of comparable economic productivity.

There are some walkable pockets of Houston, they're just hard to find amidst all the sprawl. The lack of zoning is crucial in allowing them to even exist. I don't know Houston well enough to cite specific neighborhoods, but I have a lot of friends who went to college in Houston and many of them are eager to jump to Houston's defense when people make fun of the car-centric sprawl.

That said, you have to zoom way in to see Houston's redeeming qualities. Even if Houston became the most enlightened urbanist city government on the planet tomorrow, the abundance of massive freeways split the city into disconnected fragments, and TxDOT isn't going to be open to any freeway removals any time soon. Culturally it may be more liberal than the rural parts of the state, but there are still tons of culture warriors who will cling to their lifted pickup trucks and free parking to their dying days. The population density isn't really there to support high quality transit. They've got a lot of problems that aren't fixed just by the lack of zoning.

---

As to that second part: transportation and housing need to be tackled together in policy-making. Dense housing demands more space-efficient forms of transportation. If walkability is a priority, nothing should be up-zoned to just plain "high density residential." Mixed use is king—give the new residents their grocery store, their neighborhood bar/cafe/restaurant, their laundromat or dry cleaner right there on the ground floor! Ideally, sprawling cities should coordinate upzoning with transit expansion, and a reduction or removal of minimum parking requirements on the development. The reduction of space used for parking can allow for more residences, which can then be profitable at lower rents. Mixture of uses enables walkability, and then transit can be thought of as a "pedestrian range extender," and since the neighborhood itself is walkable, it's a useful destination for other people arriving by transit.

So many American cities have this model where transit stops in the city are functional, walkable places, and then that train gets out towards the edge of the city or crosses city limits into a suburb and instead the stop is just surrounded by parking lots. Those stops surrounded by parking lots might be useful to a handful of commuters, but that is a complete waste of the enormous infrastructure investment that went into putting a train there. For transit to be a useful two-way benefit to the city and to the commuters, the area around the train stop needs to be a place that people actually want to visit!

The housing shortage demands higher density construction with access to good city jobs. Higher density housing construction creates greater need for transportation. Trains and buses move more people in less space than private cars. The logic is really not hard, and yet action is just not being taken in way too many places.

Scandium

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #359 on: January 12, 2023, 10:44:34 AM »

So many American cities have this model where transit stops in the city are functional, walkable places, and then that train gets out towards the edge of the city or crosses city limits into a suburb and instead the stop is just surrounded by parking lots. Those stops surrounded by parking lots might be useful to a handful of commuters, but that is a complete waste of the enormous infrastructure investment that went into putting a train there. For transit to be a useful two-way benefit to the city and to the commuters, the area around the train stop needs to be a place that people actually want to visit!

That's a good point. Instead of trying (and usually failing) to spend billions to extend transit to new suburb communities, perhaps it would be better to just rezone the areas around exiting "commuter stops", i.e. parking lots as you say, to mixed use? I'm sure they're doing/done that somewhere? I know around here we have vast oceans of parking lots that are used 9-5, five says a week, but otherwise sit empty and wasted

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #360 on: January 12, 2023, 12:05:53 PM »
I think it's also an issue of more money = more power. Either through exclusionary zoning as you say. But even when there is a free for all (i.e. houston). Developers will cater to the top to make as much as possible; the cheapest to build, most expensive houses as dense as possible. So we get smashed together huge mcmansions in the middle of nowhere with no infrastructure other than a wide, curved road with no sidewalk.

Developers will try to maximize profits, yes. Sometimes "catering to the top" is the way to do this, sometimes it isn't. Studio apartments would never be built if developers always catered to the top, and yet they do get built. Density is how middle-class people outbid rich people for residential land. 

Quote
No, where there is no zoning they won't build dense, affordable homes (and less affordable ones) close to public transit, walkable streets and mixed with commercial.

The most walkable, transit-rich, mixed-use neighborhoods in the US were overwhelmingly developed before zoning was even invented. These neighborhoods are in very high demand. A prudent developer would look toward these examples of what the market wants.

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #361 on: January 12, 2023, 12:21:18 PM »
To be clear, I'm not arguing against zoning or complete lack of regulations. I think areas where there's little/no zoning have their own set of severe problems. What I am arguing against is for zoning that inherently prioritizes SFH over all other structures (or, if you want to look at it another way, that is unfavorable for other types of structures to be built).
As examples, in the discussion above where 'McMansions' can be built which are disconnected from anywhere else for pedestrian or cycling - sidewalks and bike path with continuity can be a requirement. Recently a nearby municipality passed an ordinance where 40% of all apartment parking must have EV charing available. Zoning ordinances can permit smaller units just as they can prohibit construction in certain areas entirely.
The devil is in he details, and the details can be constructed around the communities we want. 

Villanelle

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #362 on: January 12, 2023, 01:37:09 PM »
In the latest edition of: "I went to a city I've heard is good and it was good," Washington, DC is a pretty kickass city and I would gladly live there. Good mixture of uses and walkability, the Metro system works great, it would be easy and enjoyable to live car-free there. Good train access up the Northeast corridor. I'm into the demographic tilt towards a bunch of highly educated public policy wonks, though the inability to escape political talk might grate after a time. Biggest urbanism complaints are just that they need to continue densifying (like every US city...) and that many streets were way too wide.

In my rather time-limited exploration, neighborhood highlights were Georgetown, Adams Morgan, and Q St west of Dupont Circle. I'll have to check out Columbia Heights and Capitol Hill next time I visit.


I live nearby, and agree DC is a nice city. At not just the mall and museums! (but the free museums are great with kids). Areas like Logan and Dupont circle, and around the zoo are also nice! Metro is descent, amazing by US standards. Close access to international airports, coast/beaches, the bay(!), mountains. Philadelphia, NYC few hours away. If you have $900,000+ you can get a nice charming little house in a walkable area.. lol
Every time I think about moving it's missing several of the amenities around this area (which of course cause a lot of people to want to live here..)

I don't think $900k buys you a house in DC unless you are miles from a metro station and/or well out of the heart of DC.

A cursory glance at Zillow filtered for houses or townhomes from $800k-900k reveals a multitude of options in the northern and eastern parts of the city, including several which are extremely close to Metro stops and seem at a glance to be nicely fixed up. Yeah, we get it, expensive cities are expensive. We don't need to constantly hyperbolize the issue.

If you open your search up to condos, there are multitudes of spacious and modern options much closer to the center of the city and/or at lower price points.

I wouldn't consider those areas "the heart of DC", and most of those look like townhomes when I said houses (and assumed that meant SF) but okay. 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 01:38:43 PM by Villanelle »

PDXTabs

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #363 on: January 12, 2023, 02:15:09 PM »
In the latest edition of: "I went to a city I've heard is good and it was good," Washington, DC is a pretty kickass city and I would gladly live there. Good mixture of uses and walkability, the Metro system works great, it would be easy and enjoyable to live car-free there. Good train access up the Northeast corridor. I'm into the demographic tilt towards a bunch of highly educated public policy wonks, though the inability to escape political talk might grate after a time. Biggest urbanism complaints are just that they need to continue densifying (like every US city...) and that many streets were way too wide.

In my rather time-limited exploration, neighborhood highlights were Georgetown, Adams Morgan, and Q St west of Dupont Circle. I'll have to check out Columbia Heights and Capitol Hill next time I visit.


I live nearby, and agree DC is a nice city. At not just the mall and museums! (but the free museums are great with kids). Areas like Logan and Dupont circle, and around the zoo are also nice! Metro is descent, amazing by US standards. Close access to international airports, coast/beaches, the bay(!), mountains. Philadelphia, NYC few hours away. If you have $900,000+ you can get a nice charming little house in a walkable area.. lol
Every time I think about moving it's missing several of the amenities around this area (which of course cause a lot of people to want to live here..)

I don't think $900k buys you a house in DC unless you are miles from a metro station and/or well out of the heart of DC.

A cursory glance at Zillow filtered for houses or townhomes from $800k-900k reveals a multitude of options in the northern and eastern parts of the city, including several which are extremely close to Metro stops and seem at a glance to be nicely fixed up. Yeah, we get it, expensive cities are expensive. We don't need to constantly hyperbolize the issue.

If you open your search up to condos, there are multitudes of spacious and modern options much closer to the center of the city and/or at lower price points.

I wouldn't consider those areas "the heart of DC", and most of those look like townhomes when I said houses (and assumed that meant SF) but okay.

Is this an American English thing? On https://www.rightmove.co.uk/ they put townhomes in the "houses" bucket but Zillow does not.

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #364 on: January 12, 2023, 02:41:11 PM »
Is this an American English thing? On https://www.rightmove.co.uk/ they put townhomes in the "houses" bucket but Zillow does not.

Oh, probably. Townhomes are so much rarer in America than in Europe so it's outside of what most people here think of when they hear the word "house."

Log

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #365 on: January 12, 2023, 02:49:58 PM »
In the latest edition of: "I went to a city I've heard is good and it was good," Washington, DC is a pretty kickass city and I would gladly live there. Good mixture of uses and walkability, the Metro system works great, it would be easy and enjoyable to live car-free there. Good train access up the Northeast corridor. I'm into the demographic tilt towards a bunch of highly educated public policy wonks, though the inability to escape political talk might grate after a time. Biggest urbanism complaints are just that they need to continue densifying (like every US city...) and that many streets were way too wide.

In my rather time-limited exploration, neighborhood highlights were Georgetown, Adams Morgan, and Q St west of Dupont Circle. I'll have to check out Columbia Heights and Capitol Hill next time I visit.


I live nearby, and agree DC is a nice city. At not just the mall and museums! (but the free museums are great with kids). Areas like Logan and Dupont circle, and around the zoo are also nice! Metro is descent, amazing by US standards. Close access to international airports, coast/beaches, the bay(!), mountains. Philadelphia, NYC few hours away. If you have $900,000+ you can get a nice charming little house in a walkable area.. lol
Every time I think about moving it's missing several of the amenities around this area (which of course cause a lot of people to want to live here..)

I don't think $900k buys you a house in DC unless you are miles from a metro station and/or well out of the heart of DC.

A cursory glance at Zillow filtered for houses or townhomes from $800k-900k reveals a multitude of options in the northern and eastern parts of the city, including several which are extremely close to Metro stops and seem at a glance to be nicely fixed up. Yeah, we get it, expensive cities are expensive. We don't need to constantly hyperbolize the issue.

If you open your search up to condos, there are multitudes of spacious and modern options much closer to the center of the city and/or at lower price points.

I wouldn't consider those areas "the heart of DC", and most of those look like townhomes when I said houses (and assumed that meant SF) but okay.

Detached home in the “heart” of a city like DC? Set the price as high as you want, they don’t exist and shouldn’t exist. In a place where land is that valuable, you don’t squander it on such a wasteful use.

gary3411

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #366 on: January 12, 2023, 06:38:33 PM »
Not sure if this was explored earlier in the thread or not, but some private companies are starting to develop some pretty cool master planned communities that are mixed use and pedestrian friendly.

Obviously this can't be done everywhere and even entire cities will probably never develop like this, but it's a nice option for 'neighborhoods' of cities, or suburbs. Maybe even an entire small or mid sized town can be started this way some day.

The company I know of with a handful already in place and more planned is Howard Hughes Corporation (HHC ticker). They have interesting communities in Houston area, Vegas, and Hawaii. I'd like to check these out in person some day. Yes I'm a shareholder.

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #367 on: January 13, 2023, 08:22:02 AM »
In the latest edition of: "I went to a city I've heard is good and it was good," Washington, DC is a pretty kickass city and I would gladly live there. Good mixture of uses and walkability, the Metro system works great, it would be easy and enjoyable to live car-free there. Good train access up the Northeast corridor. I'm into the demographic tilt towards a bunch of highly educated public policy wonks, though the inability to escape political talk might grate after a time. Biggest urbanism complaints are just that they need to continue densifying (like every US city...) and that many streets were way too wide.

In my rather time-limited exploration, neighborhood highlights were Georgetown, Adams Morgan, and Q St west of Dupont Circle. I'll have to check out Columbia Heights and Capitol Hill next time I visit.


I live nearby, and agree DC is a nice city. At not just the mall and museums! (but the free museums are great with kids). Areas like Logan and Dupont circle, and around the zoo are also nice! Metro is descent, amazing by US standards. Close access to international airports, coast/beaches, the bay(!), mountains. Philadelphia, NYC few hours away. If you have $900,000+ you can get a nice charming little house in a walkable area.. lol
Every time I think about moving it's missing several of the amenities around this area (which of course cause a lot of people to want to live here..)

I don't think $900k buys you a house in DC unless you are miles from a metro station and/or well out of the heart of DC.

A cursory glance at Zillow filtered for houses or townhomes from $800k-900k reveals a multitude of options in the northern and eastern parts of the city, including several which are extremely close to Metro stops and seem at a glance to be nicely fixed up. Yeah, we get it, expensive cities are expensive. We don't need to constantly hyperbolize the issue.

If you open your search up to condos, there are multitudes of spacious and modern options much closer to the center of the city and/or at lower price points.

I wouldn't consider those areas "the heart of DC", and most of those look like townhomes when I said houses (and assumed that meant SF) but okay.

Detached home in the “heart” of a city like DC? Set the price as high as you want, they don’t exist and shouldn’t exist. In a place where land is that valuable, you don’t squander it on such a wasteful use.

No exactly. Of course I didn't mean a 2,500 sqft detached single-family house with 1/2 acre yard in downtown DC, lol. There's like 8 of those, and are all owned by the oligarchs, I mean politicians. If you want to live in a dense, urban, walkable area then yes you'd be looking at a townhouse, row house, condo, etc. I kinda took that as a given, sorry. Also "downtown" DC is not the mall, nobody lives there. Northern and NW/NE parts of the city is indeed where you'd want.

dang1

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #368 on: January 16, 2023, 12:14:50 PM »
Not sure if this was explored earlier in the thread or not, but some private companies are starting to develop some pretty cool master planned communities that are mixed use and pedestrian friendly.
Obviously this can't be done everywhere and even entire cities will probably never develop like this, but it's a nice option for 'neighborhoods' of cities, or suburbs. Maybe even an entire small or mid sized town can be started this way some day.
The company I know of with a handful already in place and more planned is Howard Hughes Corporation (HHC ticker). They have interesting communities in Houston area, Vegas, and Hawaii. I'd like to check these out in person some day. Yes I'm a shareholder.
Disney's EPCOT concept is pretty neat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCHg9mUBag&ab_channel=TheOriginalEPCOT

effigy98

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #369 on: January 16, 2023, 12:30:48 PM »
Probably Idaho. Many co-workers have moved there working remote and extremely happy with cost of living being like 1/5th of the price and the state has a lot of outdoor activities that do not cost a lot of money to enjoy.

snic

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #370 on: January 16, 2023, 07:48:04 PM »
So many American cities have this model where transit stops in the city are functional, walkable places, and then that train gets out towards the edge of the city or crosses city limits into a suburb and instead the stop is just surrounded by parking lots. Those stops surrounded by parking lots might be useful to a handful of commuters, but that is a complete waste of the enormous infrastructure investment that went into putting a train there. For transit to be a useful two-way benefit to the city and to the commuters, the area around the train stop needs to be a place that people actually want to visit!

The housing shortage demands higher density construction with access to good city jobs. Higher density housing construction creates greater need for transportation. Trains and buses move more people in less space than private cars. The logic is really not hard, and yet action is just not being taken in way too many places.

Parts of the NYC suburbs are starting to go this route. The transit company (MTA) owns train stations and parking lots in the suburbs, and they are starting to partner with developers to convert them to apartments and condos, usually with retail at the street level and a parking garage somewhere buried in the complex. It's a nice idea - it revitalizes (or, in some cases, vitalizes) downtowns in the suburbs and provides high-density housing close to transit. The drawback so far is that those flats tend to be incredibly expensive. And typically there is no or very little public transit *within* the suburbs, so all these new people are going to have cars, which is going to exacerbate existing traffic problems even if they're taking the train to NYC for work. As revitalized as a downtown might be, not everything will be walkable and people are going to be dropping their kids off at school and driving for almost every errand.

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #371 on: January 17, 2023, 07:47:39 AM »
Where I live has a pretty intricate biking eco-system, especially if you live near the main greenway that runs north to south for about 40 miles. I can bike to work by jumping on the greenway right out of my neighborhood. I can bike to most restaurants, to the grocery store, to my gym, to my kids daycare, to my kids school, to almost every brewery in the area, etc. If I had unlimited time I could almost certainly get by without a car where I'm at, especially if I didn't mountain bike regularly. I usually only put about 3-4k miles/yr on my truck as it is and most of that is taking my mountain bike to mountain biking trails that are about 8-10 miles from my house. I can get to those via the greenway, but riding 10 miles on a FS MTB would probably take an hour each way and then 1-1.5 hours of riding the trails would make for a very long day. Much easier to just drive the 15 minutes each way from a time perspective and saving wear and tear on the MTB tires from being on the concrete.

https://cast.maps.arcgis.com/apps/instant/minimalist/index.html?appid=fbb7b62389044dc78830bd327ae99a85&center=-94.1597,36.3596&level=13/map/index.html

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #372 on: January 18, 2023, 06:58:12 AM »
The fastest falling real estate market in the country is back on our radar.  We were in San Francisco on the weekend and went to half a dozen open houses in some great neighborhoods.  The busiest property had two other couples, several were completely empty with a realtor on the sofa reading a book.  The market has really screeched to a halt it seems.  Let's see how far it falls in 2023.

nereo

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #373 on: January 18, 2023, 08:31:31 AM »
The fastest falling real estate market in the country is back on our radar.  We were in San Francisco on the weekend and went to half a dozen open houses in some great neighborhoods.  The busiest property had two other couples, several were completely empty with a realtor on the sofa reading a book.  The market has really screeched to a halt it seems.  Let's see how far it falls in 2023.

Are you looking for an investment property or are you looking to live there (i.e. the thread topic)?

GilesMM

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #374 on: January 18, 2023, 10:03:58 AM »
The fastest falling real estate market in the country is back on our radar.  We were in San Francisco on the weekend and went to half a dozen open houses in some great neighborhoods.  The busiest property had two other couples, several were completely empty with a realtor on the sofa reading a book.  The market has really screeched to a halt it seems.  Let's see how far it falls in 2023.

Are you looking for an investment property or are you looking to live there (i.e. the thread topic)?


Maybe a bit of both!

nereo

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #375 on: January 18, 2023, 10:17:25 AM »
The fastest falling real estate market in the country is back on our radar.  We were in San Francisco on the weekend and went to half a dozen open houses in some great neighborhoods.  The busiest property had two other couples, several were completely empty with a realtor on the sofa reading a book.  The market has really screeched to a halt it seems.  Let's see how far it falls in 2023.

Are you looking for an investment property or are you looking to live there (i.e. the thread topic)?


Maybe a bit of both!

If you are looking to live someplace, the previous purchase price is largely irrelevant; you can play the guessing game of what it might be worth years from now, but if your hope is to stay there for many years that, too, is only a minor consideration (and very, very hard to predict).

sui generis

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #376 on: January 18, 2023, 10:20:19 AM »
The fastest falling real estate market in the country is back on our radar.  We were in San Francisco on the weekend and went to half a dozen open houses in some great neighborhoods.  The busiest property had two other couples, several were completely empty with a realtor on the sofa reading a book.  The market has really screeched to a halt it seems.  Let's see how far it falls in 2023.

Looks like you better hurry:

Quote
Over the last 12 months, San Francisco has seen the second-biggest worker population gain of any area in the United States, according to LinkedIn

Quote
Indeed, more people are now coming to San Francisco than leaving. By the end of last year, nearly two people were coming to the metropolitan area for every one that left

Quote
A reversal in population decline hasn’t yet shown up in other data sources, but lagging data from the US Postal Service does show a lot fewer people are leaving the San Francisco Bay Area than had been earlier in the pandemic.

https://www.vox.com/recode/2023/1/18/23542444/san-francisco-bay-area-population-moving-linkedin?fbclid=IwAR3swIGJEC-bSJS-l3CSDJ7T5OdQtunaaCtkCtPHr7csTkwr6heRBCdU42Y

GilesMM

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #377 on: January 18, 2023, 10:29:09 AM »

If you are looking to live someplace, the previous purchase price is largely irrelevant; you can play the guessing game of what it might be worth years from now, but if your hope is to stay there for many years that, too, is only a minor consideration (and very, very hard to predict).


I'm less interested in what it is worth in the future than what it costs now.  Prices are falling and we can wait to see where they go.  Nothing worse than buying at the peak and watching new neighbors buy in for vastly less (which happened to us in the East Bay around 2010).

nereo

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #378 on: January 18, 2023, 10:44:20 AM »

If you are looking to live someplace, the previous purchase price is largely irrelevant; you can play the guessing game of what it might be worth years from now, but if your hope is to stay there for many years that, too, is only a minor consideration (and very, very hard to predict).


I'm less interested in what it is worth in the future than what it costs now.  Prices are falling and we can wait to see where they go.  Nothing worse than buying at the peak and watching new neighbors buy in for vastly less (which happened to us in the East Bay around 2010).

Sure, everyone likes to get the best price, but very few actually will. Trying to "wait and see" is trying to time the market. Instead of wasting mental energy feeling terrible that someone else might have gotten a better deal than you, focus on whether it's a good decision for you now. If it is, and you are there for the long term, then you can ignore what might have been if you had bought earlier or later.

314159

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #379 on: January 20, 2023, 09:44:13 PM »
The fastest falling real estate market in the country is back on our radar.  We were in San Francisco on the weekend and went to half a dozen open houses in some great neighborhoods.  The busiest property had two other couples, several were completely empty with a realtor on the sofa reading a book.  The market has really screeched to a halt it seems.  Let's see how far it falls in 2023.

Looks like you better hurry:

Quote
Over the last 12 months, San Francisco has seen the second-biggest worker population gain of any area in the United States, according to LinkedIn

Quote
Indeed, more people are now coming to San Francisco than leaving. By the end of last year, nearly two people were coming to the metropolitan area for every one that left

Quote
A reversal in population decline hasn’t yet shown up in other data sources, but lagging data from the US Postal Service does show a lot fewer people are leaving the San Francisco Bay Area than had been earlier in the pandemic.

https://www.vox.com/recode/2023/1/18/23542444/san-francisco-bay-area-population-moving-linkedin?fbclid=IwAR3swIGJEC-bSJS-l3CSDJ7T5OdQtunaaCtkCtPHr7csTkwr6heRBCdU42Y

Ha, my friends own the Fiat in the main photo of that article—they just sent me a link a few hours ago saying their car is famous!

314159

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #380 on: January 20, 2023, 09:52:42 PM »
More on topic, to answer the thread's titular question: honestly my GF and I are likely to at some point move back to my hometown of Minneapolis or else to Chicago where we have a number of friends. Both are noticeably cheaper than SF :-). We are very tentatively planning some slow, one-month-in-each-spot nomadism for a period before that happens. Maybe we'll find someplace we like even more during that time.

For people who don't know where they want to move yet, I would check out the winners of the contests organized by Strong Towns, the organization that advocates financial and social resilience for cities. They tend to be small, walkable, affordable towns, some of which I'd never considered before. E.g. Traverse City, Michigan; Watertown, South Dakota; Pensacola, Florida; or Jasper, Indiana.

Dave1442397

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #381 on: January 21, 2023, 06:42:30 AM »
I just finished reading The Deluge, by Stephen Markley. After reading that, I think I need to live at altitude, well away from the coast, and somewhere not susceptible to fire, mudslides, earthquakes, or tornadoes. Hmm.

nereo

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #382 on: January 21, 2023, 06:54:00 AM »
I just finished reading The Deluge, by Stephen Markley. After reading that, I think I need to live at altitude, well away from the coast, and somewhere not susceptible to fire, mudslides, earthquakes, or tornadoes. Hmm.
NASA has plans for a permanent colony on the moon…

startingsmall

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #383 on: January 21, 2023, 10:00:13 AM »
I just finished reading The Deluge, by Stephen Markley. After reading that, I think I need to live at altitude, well away from the coast, and somewhere not susceptible to fire, mudslides, earthquakes, or tornadoes. Hmm.

I have similar feelings after a) going through Hurricane Ian, and b) reading The Water Will Come: Rising Seas, Sinking Cities, and the Remaking of the Civilized World by Jeff Goodell. It was an excellent read, but reading it during the immediate aftermath of a major hurricane was perhaps not my smartest choice.

ChpBstrd

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #384 on: January 23, 2023, 09:07:29 AM »
I just finished reading The Deluge, by Stephen Markley. After reading that, I think I need to live at altitude, well away from the coast, and somewhere not susceptible to fire, mudslides, earthquakes, or tornadoes. Hmm.

I have similar feelings after a) going through Hurricane Ian, and b) reading The Water Will Come: Rising Seas, Sinking Cities, and the Remaking of the Civilized World by Jeff Goodell. It was an excellent read, but reading it during the immediate aftermath of a major hurricane was perhaps not my smartest choice.

Sounds like the safest place would be somewhere in northern Appalachia between Pennsylvania and Maine (hears collective whines "but that's boring!"). However, climate change might throw everywhere for a loop. For example, your hillside hamlet in Vermont might suddenly become vulnerable to mudslides and fires when the native trees die off due to rising temperatures and pests. Dead timber and mud could choke off the region's once clear-running streams, washing out bridges and leading to floods in the valleys. Precipitation changes are also hard to predict. How often will hurricanes sweep inland in the future? How will the North Atlantic Current fare? Could this currently-lush area be hit by California-like droughts someday? Never say never!

PDXTabs

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #385 on: January 23, 2023, 10:50:25 AM »
I just finished reading The Deluge, by Stephen Markley. After reading that, I think I need to live at altitude, well away from the coast, and somewhere not susceptible to fire, mudslides, earthquakes, or tornadoes. Hmm.

I have similar feelings after a) going through Hurricane Ian, and b) reading The Water Will Come: Rising Seas, Sinking Cities, and the Remaking of the Civilized World by Jeff Goodell. It was an excellent read, but reading it during the immediate aftermath of a major hurricane was perhaps not my smartest choice.

Sounds like the safest place would be somewhere in northern Appalachia between Pennsylvania and Maine (hears collective whines "but that's boring!"). However, climate change might throw everywhere for a loop. For example, your hillside hamlet in Vermont might suddenly become vulnerable to mudslides and fires when the native trees die off due to rising temperatures and pests. Dead timber and mud could choke off the region's once clear-running streams, washing out bridges and leading to floods in the valleys. Precipitation changes are also hard to predict. How often will hurricanes sweep inland in the future? How will the North Atlantic Current fare? Could this currently-lush area be hit by California-like droughts someday? Never say never!

What about Wisconsin?

Luke Warm

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #386 on: January 23, 2023, 11:09:20 AM »
More on topic, to answer the thread's titular question: honestly my GF and I are likely to at some point move back to my hometown of Minneapolis or else to Chicago where we have a number of friends. Both are noticeably cheaper than SF :-). We are very tentatively planning some slow, one-month-in-each-spot nomadism for a period before that happens. Maybe we'll find someplace we like even more during that time.

For people who don't know where they want to move yet, I would check out the winners of the contests organized by Strong Towns, the organization that advocates financial and social resilience for cities. They tend to be small, walkable, affordable towns, some of which I'd never considered before. E.g. Traverse City, Michigan; Watertown, South Dakota; Pensacola, Florida; or Jasper, Indiana.

I'm in Pensacola if you've got questions. I'm not sure how it made that list unless it was intense lobbying.

startingsmall

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #387 on: January 23, 2023, 11:15:11 AM »
I just finished reading The Deluge, by Stephen Markley. After reading that, I think I need to live at altitude, well away from the coast, and somewhere not susceptible to fire, mudslides, earthquakes, or tornadoes. Hmm.

I have similar feelings after a) going through Hurricane Ian, and b) reading The Water Will Come: Rising Seas, Sinking Cities, and the Remaking of the Civilized World by Jeff Goodell. It was an excellent read, but reading it during the immediate aftermath of a major hurricane was perhaps not my smartest choice.

Sounds like the safest place would be somewhere in northern Appalachia between Pennsylvania and Maine (hears collective whines "but that's boring!"). However, climate change might throw everywhere for a loop. For example, your hillside hamlet in Vermont might suddenly become vulnerable to mudslides and fires when the native trees die off due to rising temperatures and pests. Dead timber and mud could choke off the region's once clear-running streams, washing out bridges and leading to floods in the valleys. Precipitation changes are also hard to predict. How often will hurricanes sweep inland in the future? How will the North Atlantic Current fare? Could this currently-lush area be hit by California-like droughts someday? Never say never!

When we lived in western NC, floods and mudslides were not all that uncommon due to how water is funneled down mountains and through valleys. I think inland but flat/foothill-ish is likely to be a safer option. Maybe. But who knows, really?

ChpBstrd

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #388 on: January 23, 2023, 12:50:47 PM »
I just finished reading The Deluge, by Stephen Markley. After reading that, I think I need to live at altitude, well away from the coast, and somewhere not susceptible to fire, mudslides, earthquakes, or tornadoes. Hmm.

I have similar feelings after a) going through Hurricane Ian, and b) reading The Water Will Come: Rising Seas, Sinking Cities, and the Remaking of the Civilized World by Jeff Goodell. It was an excellent read, but reading it during the immediate aftermath of a major hurricane was perhaps not my smartest choice.

Sounds like the safest place would be somewhere in northern Appalachia between Pennsylvania and Maine (hears collective whines "but that's boring!"). However, climate change might throw everywhere for a loop. For example, your hillside hamlet in Vermont might suddenly become vulnerable to mudslides and fires when the native trees die off due to rising temperatures and pests. Dead timber and mud could choke off the region's once clear-running streams, washing out bridges and leading to floods in the valleys. Precipitation changes are also hard to predict. How often will hurricanes sweep inland in the future? How will the North Atlantic Current fare? Could this currently-lush area be hit by California-like droughts someday? Never say never!

When we lived in western NC, floods and mudslides were not all that uncommon due to how water is funneled down mountains and through valleys. I think inland but flat/foothill-ish is likely to be a safer option. Maybe. But who knows, really?
Flood risk can be mitigated by not living at a relatively low elevation compared to the nearest creek or river. However there are reasons to believe plains and flatlands will have their own habitability challenges which are not so easily escaped. Check out this map of areas now expected to have at least one day of 125F / 51.7C heat indices by 2053. That's only 30 years from now, so someone who's 40 or 50 today and living in these areas might really need to think about if they'll be able to tolerate oven-level temperatures in their 70's, or if one of these at-least-annual events will end up killing them.

https://twitter.com/IkeMcCorkle/status/1559204954358915074/photo/1

To the west of the main red zone, you have water shortages. To the east, the higher elevations of Appalachia offer some small amount of relief. I am surprised at how little a difference latitude makes. The deadly heat zone reaches all the way to Wisconsin.

In any case, 125F/52C heat index days mean much of the most productive cropland in the Mississippi basin will be unable to sustain summer crops. Maybe earlier spring plantings and a longer fall crop season will make up for it, but there are no guarantees desertification won't take hold when the temperatures kill off trees and other plants. 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 03:05:00 PM by ChpBstrd »

Michael in ABQ

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #389 on: January 23, 2023, 02:21:51 PM »
I just finished reading The Deluge, by Stephen Markley. After reading that, I think I need to live at altitude, well away from the coast, and somewhere not susceptible to fire, mudslides, earthquakes, or tornadoes. Hmm.

I have similar feelings after a) going through Hurricane Ian, and b) reading The Water Will Come: Rising Seas, Sinking Cities, and the Remaking of the Civilized World by Jeff Goodell. It was an excellent read, but reading it during the immediate aftermath of a major hurricane was perhaps not my smartest choice.

Sounds like the safest place would be somewhere in northern Appalachia between Pennsylvania and Maine (hears collective whines "but that's boring!"). However, climate change might throw everywhere for a loop. For example, your hillside hamlet in Vermont might suddenly become vulnerable to mudslides and fires when the native trees die off due to rising temperatures and pests. Dead timber and mud could choke off the region's once clear-running streams, washing out bridges and leading to floods in the valleys. Precipitation changes are also hard to predict. How often will hurricanes sweep inland in the future? How will the North Atlantic Current fare? Could this currently-lush area be hit by California-like droughts someday? Never say never!

When we lived in western NC, floods and mudslides were not all that uncommon due to how water is funneled down mountains and through valleys. I think inland but flat/foothill-ish is likely to be a safer option. Maybe. But who knows, really?
Flood risk can be mitigated by not living at a relatively low elevation compared to the nearest creek or river. However there are reasons to believe plains and flatlands will have their own habitability challenges which are not so easily escaped. Check out this map of areas now expected to have at least one day of 125F / 51.7C. by 2053. That's only 30 years from now, so someone who's 40 or 50 today and living in these areas might really need to think about if they'll be able to tolerate oven-level temperatures in their 70's, or if one of these at-least-annual events will end up killing them.
https://twitter.com/IkeMcCorkle/status/1559204954358915074/photo/1

To the west of the main red zone, you have water shortages. To the east, the higher elevations of Appalachia offer some small amount of relief. I am surprised at how little a difference latitude makes. The deadly heat zone reaches all the way to Wisconsin.

In any case, 125F/52C days mean much of the most productive cropland in the Mississippi basin will be unable to sustain summer crops. Maybe earlier spring plantings and a longer fall crop season will make up for it, but there are no guarantees desertification won't take hold when the temperatures kill off trees and other plants.

The heat index is a measuring of temperature and humidity. So at 100 degrees F and about 56% humidity you would reach it. It's unlikely that the Midwest will see air temperature of 125 which are currently limited to places like Death Valley. When I was in Djibouti the air temperature would go over 110 on a fairly regular basis. I think the highest I experienced was about 115-117. However, that would be in the middle of the day when the humidity would drop. At night the humidity would rise, and the temperature would still be 90-100 so it almost felt worse (albeit without the sun beating down on you).

https://www.weather.gov/ama/heatindex#

simonsez

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #390 on: January 23, 2023, 02:44:33 PM »
Yeah, heat index is much different than simply the temperature (though both use the same units, which can be confusing and ambiguous) - though a heat index of 125 is nothing to sneeze at.

I wonder what the source for that map is.  Chicago has already had a heat index of 125 (during the 1995 heat wave that also had measurements of over 150 in Appleton, WI!).  I would guess that many places in the Midwest have already experienced heat index values of 125+.  Mt Pleasant, SC had a 124 back in 2011.

Still, that map is serious and Minnesota and the Great Plains of Canada are looking more attractive all the time!

calimom

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #391 on: January 23, 2023, 02:54:00 PM »
The fastest falling real estate market in the country is back on our radar.  We were in San Francisco on the weekend and went to half a dozen open houses in some great neighborhoods.  The busiest property had two other couples, several were completely empty with a realtor on the sofa reading a book.  The market has really screeched to a halt it seems.  Let's see how far it falls in 2023.

Looks like you better hurry:

Quote
Over the last 12 months, San Francisco has seen the second-biggest worker population gain of any area in the United States, according to LinkedIn

Quote
Indeed, more people are now coming to San Francisco than leaving. By the end of last year, nearly two people were coming to the metropolitan area for every one that left

Quote
A reversal in population decline hasn’t yet shown up in other data sources, but lagging data from the US Postal Service does show a lot fewer people are leaving the San Francisco Bay Area than had been earlier in the pandemic.

https://www.vox.com/recode/2023/1/18/23542444/san-francisco-bay-area-population-moving-linkedin?fbclid=IwAR3swIGJEC-bSJS-l3CSDJ7T5OdQtunaaCtkCtPHr7csTkwr6heRBCdU42Y

Ha, my friends own the Fiat in the main photo of that article—they just sent me a link a few hours ago saying their car is famous!

Is that Duboce Triangle, @314159 ?

startingsmall

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #392 on: January 23, 2023, 02:54:22 PM »
I just finished reading The Deluge, by Stephen Markley. After reading that, I think I need to live at altitude, well away from the coast, and somewhere not susceptible to fire, mudslides, earthquakes, or tornadoes. Hmm.

I have similar feelings after a) going through Hurricane Ian, and b) reading The Water Will Come: Rising Seas, Sinking Cities, and the Remaking of the Civilized World by Jeff Goodell. It was an excellent read, but reading it during the immediate aftermath of a major hurricane was perhaps not my smartest choice.

Sounds like the safest place would be somewhere in northern Appalachia between Pennsylvania and Maine (hears collective whines "but that's boring!"). However, climate change might throw everywhere for a loop. For example, your hillside hamlet in Vermont might suddenly become vulnerable to mudslides and fires when the native trees die off due to rising temperatures and pests. Dead timber and mud could choke off the region's once clear-running streams, washing out bridges and leading to floods in the valleys. Precipitation changes are also hard to predict. How often will hurricanes sweep inland in the future? How will the North Atlantic Current fare? Could this currently-lush area be hit by California-like droughts someday? Never say never!

When we lived in western NC, floods and mudslides were not all that uncommon due to how water is funneled down mountains and through valleys. I think inland but flat/foothill-ish is likely to be a safer option. Maybe. But who knows, really?
Flood risk can be mitigated by not living at a relatively low elevation compared to the nearest creek or river. However there are reasons to believe plains and flatlands will have their own habitability challenges which are not so easily escaped. Check out this map of areas now expected to have at least one day of 125F / 51.7C. by 2053. That's only 30 years from now, so someone who's 40 or 50 today and living in these areas might really need to think about if they'll be able to tolerate oven-level temperatures in their 70's, or if one of these at-least-annual events will end up killing them.

https://twitter.com/IkeMcCorkle/status/1559204954358915074/photo/1

To the west of the main red zone, you have water shortages. To the east, the higher elevations of Appalachia offer some small amount of relief. I am surprised at how little a difference latitude makes. The deadly heat zone reaches all the way to Wisconsin.

In any case, 125F/52C days mean much of the most productive cropland in the Mississippi basin will be unable to sustain summer crops. Maybe earlier spring plantings and a longer fall crop season will make up for it, but there are no guarantees desertification won't take hold when the temperatures kill off trees and other plants.

It's true that living at higher elevations means less risk of your home flooding, but many areas "in the mountains" are rural and you may only have access to your home via one or two roads. Those roads are certainly at risk of washing out during flood events, and I've had several friends who experienced the headaches that can cause.

Fortunately, the counties we're targeting are not in the 125+ heat index zone on that map!

Cranky

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #393 on: January 24, 2023, 10:29:30 AM »
I just finished reading The Deluge, by Stephen Markley. After reading that, I think I need to live at altitude, well away from the coast, and somewhere not susceptible to fire, mudslides, earthquakes, or tornadoes. Hmm.

I have similar feelings after a) going through Hurricane Ian, and b) reading The Water Will Come: Rising Seas, Sinking Cities, and the Remaking of the Civilized World by Jeff Goodell. It was an excellent read, but reading it during the immediate aftermath of a major hurricane was perhaps not my smartest choice.

Sounds like the safest place would be somewhere in northern Appalachia between Pennsylvania and Maine (hears collective whines "but that's boring!"). However, climate change might throw everywhere for a loop. For example, your hillside hamlet in Vermont might suddenly become vulnerable to mudslides and fires when the native trees die off due to rising temperatures and pests. Dead timber and mud could choke off the region's once clear-running streams, washing out bridges and leading to floods in the valleys. Precipitation changes are also hard to predict. How often will hurricanes sweep inland in the future? How will the North Atlantic Current fare? Could this currently-lush area be hit by California-like droughts someday? Never say never!

What about Wisconsin?

I feel like the Great Lakes states are generally well positioned for climate change - plenty of water, not too mountain-y, agricultural, plenty of trees, etc. It's one reason we retired to Wisconsin and not Florida.

wenchsenior

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #394 on: January 24, 2023, 11:01:51 AM »
I just finished reading The Deluge, by Stephen Markley. After reading that, I think I need to live at altitude, well away from the coast, and somewhere not susceptible to fire, mudslides, earthquakes, or tornadoes. Hmm.

I have similar feelings after a) going through Hurricane Ian, and b) reading The Water Will Come: Rising Seas, Sinking Cities, and the Remaking of the Civilized World by Jeff Goodell. It was an excellent read, but reading it during the immediate aftermath of a major hurricane was perhaps not my smartest choice.

Sounds like the safest place would be somewhere in northern Appalachia between Pennsylvania and Maine (hears collective whines "but that's boring!"). However, climate change might throw everywhere for a loop. For example, your hillside hamlet in Vermont might suddenly become vulnerable to mudslides and fires when the native trees die off due to rising temperatures and pests. Dead timber and mud could choke off the region's once clear-running streams, washing out bridges and leading to floods in the valleys. Precipitation changes are also hard to predict. How often will hurricanes sweep inland in the future? How will the North Atlantic Current fare? Could this currently-lush area be hit by California-like droughts someday? Never say never!

What about Wisconsin?

I feel like the Great Lakes states are generally well positioned for climate change - plenty of water, not too mountain-y, agricultural, plenty of trees, etc. It's one reason we retired to Wisconsin and not Florida.

They definitely are. As much as I absolutely dread the winters and the dark, I am seriously considering moving back even though I know I'm happier in the sunny SW...  UGH.

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #395 on: January 24, 2023, 07:12:15 PM »
My wife and I both grew up in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area ("the Twin Cities").  We lived away for the first 12 years we lived together (New Orleans, DC, and Kigali, Rwanda) before moving back here with 2 young kids.  Our first winter back was one of the first years (maybe the first? I don't claim to be a meteorologist) of a really tough "Polar Vortex" winter, and we weren't really into it.  Our boiler pump broke one subzero January morning, and the house plummeted to close to freezing.  We had an emergency replacement of the boiler, pump, and water heater to keep the pipes from freezing and bursting.  And it was just tough to get used to again, and hadn't yet made or reconnected with friends at first.  So we started thinking about where else we could live.

So we started researching comparable cost of living indices for any city that looked: big enough for my metropolitan wife, with decent enough schools for public education, and with a warmer climate than Minnesota. We didn't need the COL to be the same or better, as long as predicted pay range for my profession was adjusted within reasonable closeness.  For instance, if New York had a much higher COL by 1.6x, but the physician assistants there made 1.5x or more than what I could make here, then it stayed on the list. 

There were a few places that were almost as good (Denver, Atlanta, I think -it was 11 years ago), a few that were as good or better, but less interesting (Omaha, somewhere I'm forgetting in New England).  But none was better.  We have some of the best schools in the country.  Consistently in the top 10 best cycling cities (either Mpls or St. Paul or both combined), and best city park systems.  Crime isn't especially high, and traffic is much better than other places we've lived and spent time.  And summers are lush, green, with long days and a true appreciation for the joy of a warm, sunny day.  Thing is, you have to put up with the long, dark winters.  Anyway, we're still here, and it's by choice.

nereo

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #396 on: January 25, 2023, 05:21:33 AM »
My wife and I both grew up in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area ("the Twin Cities").  We lived away for the first 12 years we lived together (New Orleans, DC, and Kigali, Rwanda) before moving back here with 2 young kids.  Our first winter back was one of the first years (maybe the first? I don't claim to be a meteorologist) of a really tough "Polar Vortex" winter, and we weren't really into it.  Our boiler pump broke one subzero January morning, and the house plummeted to close to freezing.  We had an emergency replacement of the boiler, pump, and water heater to keep the pipes from freezing and bursting.  And it was just tough to get used to again, and hadn't yet made or reconnected with friends at first.  So we started thinking about where else we could live.

So we started researching comparable cost of living indices for any city that looked: big enough for my metropolitan wife, with decent enough schools for public education, and with a warmer climate than Minnesota. We didn't need the COL to be the same or better, as long as predicted pay range for my profession was adjusted within reasonable closeness.  For instance, if New York had a much higher COL by 1.6x, but the physician assistants there made 1.5x or more than what I could make here, then it stayed on the list. 

There were a few places that were almost as good (Denver, Atlanta, I think -it was 11 years ago), a few that were as good or better, but less interesting (Omaha, somewhere I'm forgetting in New England).  But none was better.  We have some of the best schools in the country.  Consistently in the top 10 best cycling cities (either Mpls or St. Paul or both combined), and best city park systems.  Crime isn't especially high, and traffic is much better than other places we've lived and spent time.  And summers are lush, green, with long days and a true appreciation for the joy of a warm, sunny day.  Thing is, you have to put up with the long, dark winters.  Anyway, we're still here, and it's by choice.

I chuckle a bit when I hear people from the lower 48 talk about how long the winters are. For comparison, London, England has much shorter days in winter, and they are considerably further south than Berlin or all of Scandinavia. Even Paris, France is further North than St Paul. You are closer to the equator than the geographic North Pole.

GilesMM

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #397 on: January 25, 2023, 07:32:00 AM »
My wife and I both grew up in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area ("the Twin Cities").  We lived away for the first 12 years we lived together (New Orleans, DC, and Kigali, Rwanda) before moving back here with 2 young kids.  Our first winter back was one of the first years (maybe the first? I don't claim to be a meteorologist) of a really tough "Polar Vortex" winter, and we weren't really into it.  Our boiler pump broke one subzero January morning, and the house plummeted to close to freezing.  We had an emergency replacement of the boiler, pump, and water heater to keep the pipes from freezing and bursting.  And it was just tough to get used to again, and hadn't yet made or reconnected with friends at first.  So we started thinking about where else we could live.

So we started researching comparable cost of living indices for any city that looked: big enough for my metropolitan wife, with decent enough schools for public education, and with a warmer climate than Minnesota. We didn't need the COL to be the same or better, as long as predicted pay range for my profession was adjusted within reasonable closeness.  For instance, if New York had a much higher COL by 1.6x, but the physician assistants there made 1.5x or more than what I could make here, then it stayed on the list. 

There were a few places that were almost as good (Denver, Atlanta, I think -it was 11 years ago), a few that were as good or better, but less interesting (Omaha, somewhere I'm forgetting in New England).  But none was better.  We have some of the best schools in the country.  Consistently in the top 10 best cycling cities (either Mpls or St. Paul or both combined), and best city park systems.  Crime isn't especially high, and traffic is much better than other places we've lived and spent time.  And summers are lush, green, with long days and a true appreciation for the joy of a warm, sunny day.  Thing is, you have to put up with the long, dark winters.  Anyway, we're still here, and it's by choice.

I chuckle a bit when I hear people from the lower 48 talk about how long the winters are. For comparison, London, England has much shorter days in winter, and they are considerably further south than Berlin or all of Scandinavia. Even Paris, France is further North than St Paul. You are closer to the equator than the geographic North Pole.

Londoners complain like hell all winter and most of spring and summer. 

bill1827

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #398 on: January 25, 2023, 10:46:15 AM »
People complain everywhere about something or other.

We're further north than London, hence have even shorter days; the days might be short but the temperatures don't drop to Arctic levels. We had an unusually cold spell just before Christmas, 9 days when the temperature dropped below freezing. One day got to all of -6C, two days later it was 11C.

Dealing with very low temperatures and deep snow for long periods is not something we have to do in the south of the UK.

Villanelle

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Re: If you could live anywhere in the US...?
« Reply #399 on: January 25, 2023, 10:52:05 AM »
When we lived in Germany (and not even northern Germany), I definitely struggled with the short, dreary days.  If course it was pretty gray even in the summer--I recall reading that our city had fewer sunny days than Seattle--but winters were challenging.  By about this time in the year, I could sort of feel the weight of the darkness and it was a slog trying to get to spring.

I also think everyone's tolerances for that are different, so I no shade (hahaha!  I crack myself up) to anyone at a lower latitude who struggles. 



 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!