If you're saving lots of money and waiting on happiness, you're doing it wrong!

[cbr shadow]

This seems to come up a lot, so I thought it deserved a post of its own.  I keep seeing people on the forums say things like:
"What if we save all of this money and hold off on traveling, then we die young or become disabled and can't travel when we're old?"
or
"I know I need to keep being frugal and not go out with my friends spending money, but I'm jealous of people who are out being social"

It's great that you're saving lots of money, but that alone doesn't make you "Mustachian".  It's not just about savings tons of money, it's about getting rid of things that don't actually bring you happiness.  Going out with friends to a bar and blowing $150 on shots probably doesn't bring you $150 in happiness, but going out with friends and having 2 beers probably brings $7 in happiness.  Sitting at home wishing you were out with your friends brings you negative happiness.

There are plenty of posts where people are being so cheap it makes them miserable - there's really no need.. Find what makes you happy (likely it's not going to be something expensive) and do lots of that.  For me it's going on really long bike rides, playing with my dogs, cooking with my wife, dinner parties w/ friends, workouts with my wife, and travel with my wife.  All of the activities cost some money, but I've decided they're what make me happy enough to justify their costs.. and because these activities can be done inexpensively we still have a high savings rate.  Get your happiness now rather than putting it off for a future that might never come.

What are your thoughts on this?

[KarefulKactus15]

I agree.   I interpret mustachian'isms primary goal as squeezing the most happiness out of every dollar spent and not wasting money on things that don't bring a proportional amount of happiness.

I could be wrong though....but that's how I interpret it.

[Khaetra]

+1

I retired at 40 to do the things I wanted to do before I got too old or sick to do them.  Buying fancy cars or expensive meals isn't part of my plan, but traveling and spending time with my son and my friends is. 

[Parizade]

Well said! I had a wonderfully frugal week that included several social events that cost me almost nothing. Last night a frugal friend had several people over for a game night, everyone brings a snack (I brought caramel corn purchased at Aldi). We all had a great time, no one had to spend more than they wanted to, and I made new friends. Earlier in the week I met a friend and went xc skiing in a local park. I have all the gear and he made a crock pot of delicious stew for dinner so I actually came out ahead. Next week I'll take advantage of the cheapo night at a local theater to see a movie and eat free popcorn.

As Emma Goldman said “If I can’t dance, I don’t want to be part of your revolution.” If the mustachian life were just another prison, I would say no thank you! I'm seeking liberation, not deprivation.

[steveo]

I basically agree so long as the sentiment doesn't become well go out and buy the BMW because it makes you happy.

I prefer being frugal. We went to a fancy restaurant a week or so ago. We went to a cheap restaurant today. I prefer eating at home too both experiences.

We only went to the restaurants because the in-laws do that as a way to get together.

[OutOfTheAbyss]

I agree with these comments. When I look at what I want to do in retirement, it's sip coffee, write, read, travel, enjoy art and good company. It is NOT expensive food, buy a fancy car, acquire and maintain multiple vacation homes, etc. 

That said, I do acknowledge that there is a tension among friends. We have high incomes, and we have friends with much higher incomes (multi millionaires and a billionaire). For them, $700 dinners, $100 bottles of wine, extravagant trips are the norm. At the other end of the spectrum, I have long term friends who can't afford to go out to mid level restaurants. I have more fun going for long walks in the park, shopping at the local outdoor market, and sipping tea or coffee for an hour for $3 than I do eating a tiny piece of $30 fish and drinking too many glasses of fancy wine in a restaurant. Still, I don't want to lose those friends either.

While still working, I'm trying to live like a retiree, and I've noticed that retirees do fun cheap things like volunteer at the local museum, have movie night with DVDs from the library, and enjoy the happy hour specials at Bone Fish Grill one day a week.

[big_slacker]

I'm an 'outdoor sports' guy, that (and my family) is what makes me happy. This week was something like:

Snowboarding: Cost some gas to get to the hill, I carpooled with my riding buddy. Pass was employer paid by fitness reimbursement program.
Rode bike: Time is limited but I even like riding to work. Discount bike and new lightweight wheels also on employer fitness plan.
Took kids hiking, to the lake and the library: $0, walked from our house. Woods at one end of the block, lake at the other, library a mile away.
Real hiking: 2 hours on the trails, drive to the trailhead was 15 minutes so some gas.

I learned this early as a snowboard bum back home. Most people living these epic outdoor lives do it extremely cheap sometimes even living out of the back of a truck where the glossy mags have you thinking you need $500 worth of clothing and gear on just to go walk for a couple hours in the woods. :/

[Le Poisson]

Op, love the message here, thanks for the reminder.

That's all, as you were.

[soccerluvof4]

I agree totally as well. Thats why i chose to retire when i did. I dont want fancy cars, the next big house or big toys but the ability to spend time with my family when I want. The time and ability to chose what i want to do is worth a few less bucks here and there. As they say ,,you cant take it with ya! and its not a contest to see who has the most shit

[Tabaxus]

I'm inclined to agree, but OP, what magical wonderland do you live in that a beer worth drinking costs $3.50 at a bar?

[Psychstache]

I'm inclined to agree, but OP, what magical wonderland do you live in that a beer worth drinking costs $3.50 at a bar?

We have tons of bars around here with $2-3 happy hour beers.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[viking_mustasche]

Very good OP!

For me an important aspect was to become conscious about what make me happy.
If you realise it you can start to substitute your more expensive fun activities with cheap or free which give equal (or usually even quadrupled times five) amount of happiness.
 
And this substitution process is actually quite fun and will make you more creative.
- Having a few beers at the pub is fun, but maybe I can invite my friends to try my new home-brew!
- Wow, those cushions would look great in my sofa. I will try sew those cushion-covers myself!

However, there are certain things which I just have to accept will cost a lot of money. I love traveling, and giving it up to save a few hundred €/year is not worth it. The good news is of course, you do not need to do all the over-priced tourist attractions or stay at expensive hotels.   

[Kansas Beachbum]

Going out with friends to a bar and blowing $150 on shots probably doesn't bring you $150 in happiness, but going out with friends and having 2 beers probably brings $7 in happiness.  Sitting at home wishing you were out with your friends brings you negative happiness.

Agree...and having friends over to your house and spending $20 on a couple of bottles of wine and $10 on some cheese and crackers, then sitting and visiting, listening to music, etc., is priceless.  We do go out to bars with friends...more the 2 - 3 beers, not the $150 on shots...but some of the best times we've had have just been at our house, or someone else's. 

Life's too short to not enjoy, just have to figure out what it is you really like...it's not the bar atmosphere, or the overpriced drinks and food, it's the hanging with your friends that's important. 

We also splurge on travel...it's really our only splurge, because as some have said, I don't want to end up being 70 years old and have never been anywhere, done anything. 

All about balance.  Cheers!

[Dicey]

I say that having cancer at 22 was a life changing experience for the good. Save like hell for the future and hope you get to it, but enjoy the here and now, because that's all you've got. If you want to travel now, figure out a way to do it. Plenty of travel hacks available. What? You dug yourself into a hole buying stupid shit and now you're "trapped"?  No you're not, you'll just have to work that much harder in the near term so you can savor the victory in the long term.

[JLee]

I basically agree so long as the sentiment doesn't become well go out and buy the BMW because it makes you happy.

I prefer being frugal. We went to a fancy restaurant a week or so ago. We went to a cheap restaurant today. I prefer eating at home too both experiences.

We only went to the restaurants because the in-laws do that as a way to get together.

There's usually a solution for that sort of desire, and it doesn't have to involve ludicrous spending. The caveat, of course, is that if the goal is to have the "label" (i.e. buying something new and shiny just because it's new and shiny and gives you status amongst your social circle), solutions aren't as easy to come by...and that's likely a different problem altogether (i.e. stop worrying about what other people think).

Step 1: http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/5437173685.html
Step 2: Learn to work on your own stuff

Bam, now you have a BMW *and* you didn't spend a ton of money! :)

[Trudie]

I think your post is "on the money."  Haha.  If your money-savings habits totally isolate you from others and deprive you of social interaction, that's not good.  We still go out, but much less often than we used to and do "happy hour" type things.  We've been getting together at home with friends more often.  It's so easy to throw a couple more plates on the table for dinner or brunch or do a BYOB happy hour -- especially when it's neighbors.  Everyone can drink and walk home.

Where I try to save is on the eating out fast food because I'm lazy or haven't planned ahead.  These are low-satisfaction and costly experiences.  Similarly, I enjoy movies.  I don't skip them altogether, but try to go to matinees.  I no longer go to movies just to "have something to do."  I used to do that and saw a lot of mediocre movies.  Now I'm more selective and when I just want to be entertained I check out a DVD or book at the library.

My husband and I still travel.  These adventures are worth it to me, and I want to do them while I'm young.

And then there are the DIY projects.  We're selective here too.  My husband's done a lot of painting in his time, but our kitchen and bathroom need a touch up.  We'll do things like shampoo our own carpets and do the easy painting, but sometimes I'd rather call someone (when there are mirrors and fixtures to take down.)

[Asgard01]

I think as long as there is no feelings of deprivation along the way and you are living for the now as well as for tomorrow and not just tomorrow. I think delaying living and enjoying life is the big mistake. I have posted a similiar topic on here before.

[jawisco]

Great post!  Its a great reminder to be conscious that happiness is really important and it should not take a back seat to the goal of Financial Independance.

BUT, I also think it is important to be willing to be a little miserable or deprived for a while in order to find your "baseline" needs in order to live a happy/fulfilled life.  If you experiment with low-budget living and you immediately increase your spending because you feel miserable or deprived, you will never find your baseline.

It takes time to get used to a new lifestyle and some of the challenges involved.  I spent probably 3 years in my 20s where I experimented with what is my baseline spending needed to live a fulfilling/happy life.  I started really, really low - like 6K/year.

During this time, I sometimes took low-budget to an extreme, and there was plenty of misery and unhappiness along the way.  But it was an adventure and I learned a lot about what I really needed.  Everybody is different, but I found out I needed very little in the way of spending, but a lot in the way of lifestyle flexibility to be happy. 

So I moved forward with that in mind and it has worked out well for me.  I work part-time (5-10 hours/week) and consider myself FI because I don't need to work again unless things blow up financially.  These days I spend around 25K/year, but I know from my days of experimentation, that I could be very happy spending 12K/year.  That is great feeling when the market dives or other investments fluctuate.  I lived on the equivalent of $12K today for many years and that was more than enough.  My life would change, but it would still give me everything I needed to be happy and fulfilled.

So don't delay your pursuit of fulfillment and happiness, but don't be afraid to challenge yourself along the way either.

[Cassie]

Like most things in life moderation is the key. YOu shouldn't be spending all your extra $ or saving all of it if you are depriving yourself of things.

[Zikoris]

Yeah, I've been seeing a lot of these lately - posts about how to stay motivated, how to keep working towards your goals, being envious of other people's things, the works. That's not how you do it, geez people! How much "motivation" would it take to eat a big plate of your favourite food? That's how much motivation it should take to live your day to day life as a Mustachian.

[Bertram]

I have tried to make this point a couple of times, but this sentence right here really drives the point home:

going out with friends and having 2 beers probably brings $7 in happiness.  Sitting at home wishing you were out with your friends brings you negative happiness.

Mustachianism is about deferred consumption of (some of) your income, it's not about deferred happiness. At least to me.

But I guess there are different, equally valid understandings of mustachianism, as many as there are different preference systems. I guess somebody people who really do enjoy taking things to the "Xtreme" (90s style), will feel differently about it.

[faramund]

My wife and I have very good incomes, so I can save while still having available money. But at least for me, I think the key has been avoiding status purchases. So I've avoided fancy cars/clothes/restaurants/holidays/schools/whatever. I spend money on all of these things, but in moderation in terms of both cost and frequency.

Optimizing life, at least to my mind, entails getting a good balance, well.. in almost everything.

[EnjoyIt]

I think the key has been avoiding status purchases.

Completely agree. It is also not purchasing items that have high continued recurring. Such as expensive leased cars, vacation homes, daily Starbucks addiction and so forth.  I do think that at times it is okay to purchase something that has a one time fee that will increase your happiness. Some good examples seen here:

Good coffee grinder, a decent bike, appropriate warm clothing for your outdoor activity, and plenty of other things that may bring you continued happiness from the one purchase. 

It is morning now. I'm going to make some eggs and a double shot cappuccino now. And then I'm going to walk my dogs. That will be some cheap 1.5 hours of happiness and healthy living.

[Public Hermit]

I think your post is "on the money."  Haha.  If your money-savings habits totally isolate you from others and deprive you of social interaction, that's not good. We still go out, but much less often than we used to and do "happy hour" type things.  We've been getting together at home with friends more often.  It's so easy to throw a couple more plates on the table for dinner or brunch or do a BYOB happy hour -- especially when it's neighbors.  Everyone can drink and walk home.

Where I try to save is on the eating out fast food because I'm lazy or haven't planned ahead.  These are low-satisfaction and costly experiences.  Similarly, I enjoy movies.  I don't skip them altogether, but try to go to matinees.  I no longer go to movies just to "have something to do."  I used to do that and saw a lot of mediocre movies.  Now I'm more selective and when I just want to be entertained I check out a DVD or book at the library.

My husband and I still travel.  These adventures are worth it to me, and I want to do them while I'm young.

And then there are the DIY projects.  We're selective here too.  My husband's done a lot of painting in his time, but our kitchen and bathroom need a touch up.  We'll do things like shampoo our own carpets and do the easy painting, but sometimes I'd rather call someone (when there are mirrors and fixtures to take down.)

What if you prefer to be isolated with none or minimal social interaction?

[Nate R]

I say that having cancer at 22 was a life changing experience for the good. Save like hell for the future and hope you get to it, but enjoy the here and now, because that's all you've got. If you want to travel now, figure out a way to do it. Plenty of travel hacks available. What? You dug yourself into a hole buying stupid shit and now you're "trapped"?  No you're not, you'll just have to work that much harder in the near term so you can savor the victory in the long term.

After having a couple close relatives die of cancer at somewhat young ages, I've felt the same way....I definitely lean towards trying to figure out ways to do things in the here and now instead of putting them ALL off into the distant future. For my situation, that means some of my decisions are reducing savings and putting off ER longer, but I'm very content with the tradeoffs. (But, as was mentioned, I'm not using it as an excuse to buy luxury cars, etc. But I am making decisions that some would say I should've waited to do, etc. But if I've thought through it, and can accept the tradeoffs, I guess as long as it's an INFORMED decision, it's fine.)

[HenryDavid]

Find what makes you happy (likely it's not going to be something expensive) and do lots of that. 

This is all you need to know. (However, just to add to it unnecessarily . . .)
I've never taken this blog to be about SACRIFICE. Fuck that I say!
Sacrifice is a ritual that pays respect to an idol. The $$ wasted on fancier cars than you truly enjoy, granite countertops, fancy clothes you only think your friends expect you to wear, heating houses too big to even inhabit completely, etc. etc. is a true SACRIFICE paid to the idol of "stuff I think somebody wants me to do because I got that idea somewhere, probly TV."
But being free from car payments (and incidentally, a car) is not a sacrifice. It's an immediate benefit. It liberates me to walk and bike more. To be healthier and more alive, now. This is not some cultish line I repeat to people--I truly love getting around on a bike and on foot. And so on for all of the other things I "give up" compared to some neighbours.
There's no deferred gratification, it's more like instant gratification every time I straddle that bike, or have a morning with no big deadlines (like today), and can enjoy it free of worry about debt etc. Deferral of enjoyment for financial reasons is Calvinist BS.
Life is reeeallllyy short. Enjoy it now and don't get tricked into working at something non-fun in return for some deferred consumer paradise. The real paradise is not on the other side of a financial transaction--it's right in front of you and it's free.

[faramund]

On cancer, my almost 10 year older brother, aged 55 died last year from Cancer - he never retired. In fact, he left school after Year 10 and pretty much worked his whole life. That's been about the strongest thing that's ever given my wife any motivation to retire early.

[Chris22]

But being free from car payments (and incidentally, a car) is not a sacrifice. It's an immediate benefit. It liberates me to walk and bike more.

Sounds like suckage to me.  Remember that what makes you happy doesn't make everyone happy.  Avoid payments, but my car makes me deliriously happy.  My bike is, "meh, it's okay."

[Bertram]

But being free from car payments (and incidentally, a car) is not a sacrifice. It's an immediate benefit. It liberates me to walk and bike more.

Sounds like suckage to me.  Remember that what makes you happy doesn't make everyone happy.  Avoid payments, but my car makes me deliriously happy.  My bike is, "meh, it's okay."

Yes, it's very subjective. But I still think revisiting your desires and renegotiating them is a central tenet of mustachianism.

Whereas living significantly below your personal happiness-baseline  in order to achieve faster FIRE is merely an optional tactic, which I personally would not recommend.

[HenryDavid]

But being free from car payments (and incidentally, a car) is not a sacrifice. It's an immediate benefit. It liberates me to walk and bike more.

Sounds like suckage to me.  Remember that what makes you happy doesn't make everyone happy.  Avoid payments, but my car makes me deliriously happy.  My bike is, "meh, it's okay."

Well there ya go. If any car made me deliriously happy I'd be a totally different person. But if you enjoy yours that much, it's not a waste to own it and run it. In terms of your personal happiness.
Lotsa folks just don't really examine what's making them deliriously happy though--and then, stop doing the stuff that isn't. They just carry on doing what the neighbours do. That seems like a waste.

[BFGirl]

But being free from car payments (and incidentally, a car) is not a sacrifice. It's an immediate benefit. It liberates me to walk and bike more.

Sounds like suckage to me.  Remember that what makes you happy doesn't make everyone happy.  Avoid payments, but my car makes me deliriously happy.  My bike is, "meh, it's okay."

Yes, it's very subjective. But I still think revisiting your desires and renegotiating them is a central tenet of mustachianism.

Whereas living significantly below your personal happiness-baseline  in order to achieve faster FIRE is merely an optional tactic, which I personally would not recommend.

+1

[Bearded Man]

I've been on my death bed with a major life threatening illness twice in the past 4 years, one that kills more people than AIDS, cancer and car accidents in the US COMBINED. I get where you are coming from, and I still save more than I spend, by a wide margin, largely because of reasonable and low expenses, but also because of a high income.

I do wonder though whether all the effort I'm putting into my MBA, real estate investments and career, is worth it. Will I just work myself to death, benefiting those who inherit my money?

At the same time, the thought of NOT saving and investing and furthering myself in case I do live doesn't sit well with me either. I mean, I have the machinery in place for uber wealth long term so I could sit back and get a regular job that is fun.

Part of me wants to because I have a very real likelihood of biting it early, it's not a "what if X happened to me" proposition. It's happened to me and I lived, but barely.

But at the same time, it's tough to just say I might be on my death bed again and give up the six figure income and the financial security it is helping me build for long term wealth.

So instead of going camping or hiking, I do accounting homework I don't want to do, so I can finish my MBA...

[Le Poisson]

I've been on my death bed with a major life threatening illness twice in the past 4 years, one that kills more people than AIDS, cancer and car accidents in the US COMBINED. I get where you are coming from, and I still save more than I spend, by a wide margin, largely because of reasonable and low expenses, but also because of a high income.

I do wonder though whether all the effort I'm putting into my MBA, real estate investments and career, is worth it. Will I just work myself to death, benefiting those who inherit my money?

At the same time, the thought of NOT saving and investing and furthering myself in case I do live doesn't sit well with me either. I mean, I have the machinery in place for uber wealth long term so I could sit back and get a regular job that is fun.

Part of me wants to because I have a very real likelihood of biting it early, it's not a "what if X happened to me" proposition. It's happened to me and I lived, but barely.

But at the same time, it's tough to just say I might be on my death bed again and give up the six figure income and the financial security it is helping me build for long term wealth.

So instead of going camping or hiking, I do accounting homework I don't want to do, so I can finish my MBA...

Having lived through the opposite of this - a MIL who was terminal with cancer, took out loans against the family home and emptied the savings accounts, I can say that your route is preferable in so many ways, its incalculable. Of course WalMart is better for her path...

[forumname123]

I've been on my death bed with a major life threatening illness twice in the past 4 years, one that kills more people than AIDS, cancer and car accidents in the US COMBINED. I get where you are coming from, and I still save more than I spend, by a wide margin, largely because of reasonable and low expenses, but also because of a high income.

I do wonder though whether all the effort I'm putting into my MBA, real estate investments and career, is worth it. Will I just work myself to death, benefiting those who inherit my money?

At the same time, the thought of NOT saving and investing and furthering myself in case I do live doesn't sit well with me either. I mean, I have the machinery in place for uber wealth long term so I could sit back and get a regular job that is fun.

Part of me wants to because I have a very real likelihood of biting it early, it's not a "what if X happened to me" proposition. It's happened to me and I lived, but barely.

But at the same time, it's tough to just say I might be on my death bed again and give up the six figure income and the financial security it is helping me build for long term wealth.

So instead of going camping or hiking, I do accounting homework I don't want to do, so I can finish my MBA...

In another thread you mentioned needing $12,000 per month to live. Dude, you might have very limited time left on this earth, and you're spending time doing things you don't want to do, so you can make sure you have $12,000/month... What could possibly be so important that you need that much money for? Many people here live great lives on less than that much a YEAR. You don't need "uber wealth" to live an awesome fulfilling life, but you do need to maximize your time. Quit that shit and go hiking and camping!!

[h82goslw]

Since MMM I've cut back a lot on shit I never knew I didn't need. In total, I've cut spending by thousands and now have a plan for retirement and the future looks so much brighter. 
So when a buddy asked me and the wife to join two other couples to go to a Springsteen concert I balked.  The whole evening was going to cost $400.  Almost said no....then I remembered how much I love concerts and how it has been at least 10 years since going to one. 
Concert was last night....he put on a 3.5 hour show and it was the best concert I've ever seen.  Well worth every penny I spent.   Now I won't be doing any other concerts for a while, but I understand why people go to see him over and over.   Just reinforces that life is all about balance.
Now I'm off to plow some more money into my Vanguard IRA.

[Noodle]

I think there are two different kinds of happiness people on these forums struggle with, and they have different challenges.

One is the "how am I ever going to make it to retirement?" syndrome where life now is fine, but the prospect of a better life ahead that they have to wait for is depressing them. For this, I think the best way can be to optimize as much as possible (arrange the short commute, reasonably priced housing, moderate insurance rates, habits of eating at home etc.) and then forget about it. (Of course check in occasionally, and when financial decisions come around, apply Mustachian principles, but overall, day to day, just go about your business and enjoy life).

The other is "I don't like the choices I have to make to meet this goal."  I think there are two ways to figure out the right balance to current happiness and distant goals. You can either start cutting back slowly on a given habit, until you get to the right balance point of goal vs. current (ie, if you eat out three times a week, try two times, then once, then once every other week, then once a month, until you miss eating out more than you value adding to the stash.) Or you can cut out something totally and then add it back slowly until you get to the right balance. The most powerful way to do it is also simultaneously look for other less expensive ways to meet the same need (learning to cook, or becoming an expert on local happy hours). What sometimes seems to happen is that people do the "cut it all out" step, but not the "slowly add it back in, or find something else that meets the desire/need" step.

[Le Poisson]

I think there are two different kinds of happiness people on these forums struggle with, and they have different challenges.

One is the "how am I ever going to make it to retirement?" syndrome where life now is fine, but the prospect of a better life ahead that they have to wait for is depressing them. For this, I think the best way can be to optimize as much as possible (arrange the short commute, reasonably priced housing, moderate insurance rates, habits of eating at home etc.) and then forget about it. (Of course check in occasionally, and when financial decisions come around, apply Mustachian principles, but overall, day to day, just go about your business and enjoy life).

The other is "I don't like the choices I have to make to meet this goal."  I think there are two ways to figure out the right balance to current happiness and distant goals. You can either start cutting back slowly on a given habit, until you get to the right balance point of goal vs. current (ie, if you eat out three times a week, try two times, then once, then once every other week, then once a month, until you miss eating out more than you value adding to the stash.) Or you can cut out something totally and then add it back slowly until you get to the right balance. The most powerful way to do it is also simultaneously look for other less expensive ways to meet the same need (learning to cook, or becoming an expert on local happy hours). What sometimes seems to happen is that people do the "cut it all out" step, but not the "slowly add it back in, or find something else that meets the desire/need" step.

Well said Noodle.

There is also 'normalization.' I recall reading studies that showed how after about 6 months anyone's level of happiness will normalize to their conditions, so that they no longer recognize their life as outstanding or different or special.

For some folks that leads to despondency, while for others it stresses them to make changes. SO your savings rate is an incredible 85%, and you feel good about yourself, but after 6 months in your mind, that's just how life is, and you start to look for opportunities to wring out a few more percent, or you feel like there is nothing special about what you are doing, and the self-defeat talk kicks in.

Its important to keep reminding yourself that even in the 9-5 grind, there are outstanding things you are doing, regardless how normal it feels to dump so much cash into savings, and that wringing those extra 2% of savings out of your paycheque may be satisfying for a time, but doing something spectacular with it may also be rewarding.

Our family does not have a stellar savings rate, but we do make it a point to infuse our lives with punctuation marks that push us outside our comfort zone and allow us to feel excited about the lives we live.

[Ricky]

I think the best solution to this problem is stick to a savings rate. Of course your savings rate is determined by your goals/timeline. It's going to differ for everyone. If your savings rate is 50% and your bare minimum expenses are 30%, then you have 20% left over that you can do with as you please. You should allow yourself the complete freedom to spend that 20% however you see fit. It may be that saving it ultimately makes you happier, it may not. I do think a system is necessary - lines have to be drawn. It's too vague to say "live for the moment". Posting specific examples of spending is illogical as well - buying $7 worth of beer at a pub is equally as ambiguous financially as buying a BMW. It totally depends on your savings rate/discretionary income, so I really don't think it's as simple to say "do what makes you happy". It's more "do what makes you happy, within reason" based on your savings rate.

No amount of happiness is worth going in debt or not sticking to a savings rate in my opinion. There has to be some amount of principle and determination.

[Chris22]

No amount of happiness is worth going in debt...in my opinion.

Meh.  I happily financed a sports car at a low rate, and then paid it off.  Now I own it.  Yeah, I "went into debt" at one point, but I don't care.  It makes me super happy. 

Carolyn Burnham: Uh, whose car is that out front?
Lester Burnham: Mine. 1970 Pontiac Firebird. The car I've always wanted and now I have it. I rule!

[Ricky]

No amount of happiness is worth going in debt...in my opinion.

Meh.  I happily financed a sports car at a low rate, and then paid it off.  Now I own it.  Yeah, I "went into debt" at one point, but I don't care.  It makes me super happy. 

Yeah, I realize that wasn't the best mantra, though I'm still adverse to debt. Not all debt is bad debt. I don't even consider luxury car debt to necessarily be bad debt if it's something one truly values - and I can understand that. It's not like travel is an appreciating asset either.

I guess bottom line is - everything costs. Every. Single. Thing. You. Do. Costs. Breathing costs. Nothing is free. You just have to decide what's worth it and how much "control" you want over your day to day. As OP mentioned, riding his bike, playing with his dog, and exercising are not free. The bike has to be maintained, the dog has to be fed, and your body has to be fueled.

[MrsPete]

This seems to come up a lot, so I thought it deserved a post of its own.  I keep seeing people on the forums say things like:
"What if we save all of this money and hold off on traveling, then we die young or become disabled and can't travel when we're old?"
or
"I know I need to keep being frugal and not go out with my friends spending money, but I'm jealous of people who are out being social"

In a word, balance.

I retired at 40 to do the things I wanted to do before I got too old or sick to do them.  Buying fancy cars or expensive meals isn't part of my plan, but traveling and spending time with my son and my friends is.

One thing I see from the youngest posters on this board is a misunderstanding of when "too old or sick" is likely to kick in.  I'm not 50 yet, but I can see it from where I'm standing, and I'm nowhere near "too old or sick" to do the things I want to do.  My mom is mid-70s, and she's not "too old or sick" to do the things she wants to do -- including all day hikes up mountains.  While a few unfortunate people will lose their health young, most of us won't.

Does that mean you should work longer?  No, just that you shouldn't underestimate your own health. 

BUT, I also think it is important to be willing to be a little miserable or deprived for a while in order to find your "baseline" needs in order to live a happy/fulfilled life.  If you experiment with low-budget living and you immediately increase your spending because you feel miserable or deprived, you will never find your baseline.

Yes, especially while you're still young and are living on an entry level salary.  In those first out-of-school years, you need to put away as much as you can -- if you never eat out, have bedsheets instead of curtains on the windows, etc., no problem.  Again, balance. 

[Parizade]

One thing I see from the youngest posters on this board is a misunderstanding of when "too old or sick" is likely to kick in. 

In general, "too old and too sick" kicks in when you haven't taken care of yourself. I've known people in their 20s who are couch potatoes and have no energy to do more than is absolutely necessary. I've also known people in their 70s, 80s, even 90s who make an effort to maintain a healthy diet and fitness regimen -- I can't keep up with them!

Be frugal, stick to a budget, but don't compromise your health or happiness for FI. It will make you old and sick before your time.

[Kaspian]

Yeah, I've always thought it was weird when somebody would post something like, "How do you guys all keep your spirits up while becoming Mustachian?"   How do you deal with denying yourself luxuries/joy while watching others?" 

Because that assumes what we're doing is difficult and brings a level of misery with it.  Since doing the majority of the things I learned here my life happiness level has gone up probably about 400%!!  I didn't have debt before and was more-or-less a content minimalist but I couldn't even imagine going back to the way it was before becoming great.  I made a huge list of all the way my life is better as a result.  Negatives?  At the moment I can't think of a single one!  (...OK, maybe so I don't have a PS4 yet, big deal.)

[Basenji]

Yeah, I've always thought it was weird when somebody would post something like, "How do you guys all keep your spirits up while becoming Mustachian?"   How do you deal with denying yourself luxuries/joy while watching others?" 

Because that assumes what we're doing is difficult and brings a level of misery with it.  Since doing the majority of the things I learned here my life happiness level has gone up probably about 400%!!  I didn't have debt before and was more-or-less a content minimalist but I couldn't even imagine going back to the way it was before becoming great.  I made a huge list of all the way my life is better as a result.  Negatives?  At the moment I can't think of a single one!  (...OK, maybe so I don't have a PS4 yet, big deal.)

Yep yep yep, all sorts of yep

[Lexaholik]

This seems to come up a lot, so I thought it deserved a post of its own.  I keep seeing people on the forums say things like:
"What if we save all of this money and hold off on traveling, then we die young or become disabled and can't travel when we're old?"
or
"I know I need to keep being frugal and not go out with my friends spending money, but I'm jealous of people who are out being social"

It's great that you're saving lots of money, but that alone doesn't make you "Mustachian".  It's not just about savings tons of money, it's about getting rid of things that don't actually bring you happiness.  Going out with friends to a bar and blowing $150 on shots probably doesn't bring you $150 in happiness, but going out with friends and having 2 beers probably brings $7 in happiness.  Sitting at home wishing you were out with your friends brings you negative happiness.

There are plenty of posts where people are being so cheap it makes them miserable - there's really no need.. Find what makes you happy (likely it's not going to be something expensive) and do lots of that.  For me it's going on really long bike rides, playing with my dogs, cooking with my wife, dinner parties w/ friends, workouts with my wife, and travel with my wife.  All of the activities cost some money, but I've decided they're what make me happy enough to justify their costs.. and because these activities can be done inexpensively we still have a high savings rate.  Get your happiness now rather than putting it off for a future that might never come.

What are your thoughts on this?

I'm a big proponent of quasi-FI or partial retirement. I think the commonly used term for this is "sabbatical" but it could be a lot of things. Once I saved up enough money I effectively took a "break" from conventional working to do things I enjoyed. Now I have time for hobbies, personal life, etc. and I even started my own business which is what I wanted to do for a long time.

I've heard a lot of high income friends who say they won't be financially independent until they have $2M to $10M in the bank. I never understood why. You don't have to retire forever...you can just take a bunch of breaks along the way and who knows, if you start a super successful business you may never have to work again.

[Parizade]

while I agree with you and mMrs. Pete I think it also boils down to "what" kinds of things you want to do when retired. If you want to do high intensity competitive sports then the difference between retiring at 40 verses 65 fitness and ability wise might be huge. Plus you have the added bonus of an extra 25 years of youth to do all the things before you even hit 65  - and probably many more tears after that of health, fitness and ability. I don't think you can say the same for someone who retires at 65 and 25 years later is 90.

I agree with you but I think you may have missed my point. If your quest for FI makes you so frugal that you don't take care of yourself, you might well retire at 40 but you will be old and sick at 35 so what's the point?

[simpleFIblog]

Agreed. Saving a large portion of your income doesn't necessitate depriving yourself of happiness. A common theme in MMM's posts is cutting out excess and being (or learning to be) happier with less.

[MLKnits]

Yeah, I've been seeing a lot of these lately - posts about how to stay motivated, how to keep working towards your goals, being envious of other people's things, the works. That's not how you do it, geez people! How much "motivation" would it take to eat a big plate of your favourite food? That's how much motivation it should take to live your day to day life as a Mustachian.

This is a really excellent point. There's nothing attractive about someone else's Lamborghini if all you see is someone using entirely the wrong strategy to buy happiness. Walking past it, admiring the sleekness, and telling a friend about this super-fancy car you saw today is as much of a pleasure as owning it would be, and with no associated debt anxiety.

[tobitonic]

Regarding the "too old" argument, one of my favorite counterpoints is that research suggests the folks who live the longest and are still active (e.g., living independently) are almost never folks who retired early, but folks who worked physical / active jobs pretty much all their lives. They also tended to socialize a lot, eat good, plant-based, unprocessed food, and have a sense of purpose (often found through work or family).

Oh, and they also tended to have rather little in savings or earnings, relatively speaking. They made up for it in having a lot in the other areas of life (friendship, movement, food, purpose).

[Bertram]

Regarding the "too old" argument, one of my favorite counterpoints is that research suggests the folks who live the longest and are still active (e.g., living independently) are almost never folks who retired early, but folks who worked physical / active jobs pretty much all their lives.

There may be correlation, but you need to be careful about which conclusions to draw. Another plausible explanation would be that people who get sick need to retire because they are no longer able to work. So it might not be the working that keeps them young, it might simply be that most people work as long as they feel fit to, and the fit people are just able to do it longer. Sounds much more obvious this way, too.

And even then, a FIRE retiree and and a regular early  retiree will likely be very different groups of people. It would be hard to draw general conclusions from one and apply it to the other.