If hedonic adaptation exists... what's the point of early retirement?

[Jupiter]

Overall I've found the concept of hedonic adaption to be either completely false or AT THE VERY LEAST OVER EXAGGERATED. If you don't know what hedonic adaption is, check out the Wikipedia article or yet another one of Mr. Money Mustaches fantastically written blog posts: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/

"In less fancy terms, what this term means is that “no matter what happens to you in your life, you’ll very quickly get used to it”. Hedonic Adaptation is a feature built right into your Human DNA that allows you to function efficiently in a wide variety of environments, even very harsh ones.

A most striking example of this was a 1978 psychological study that evaluated the happiness levels of recent lottery winners, and recently injured paraplegics relative to the general population. As you’d expect, the lottery winners were pretty upbeat immediately after their win, and the paraplegics were pretty pissed off. But within just two months, both groups had returned back to the average level of happiness."

Most people I know would go on crazy holidays and buy insane cars after winning the lotto (not me though) sucking up all their cash after the 2 months and returning to a normal life (yet with a fancy car at the end of it) thus in my opinion explaining why they return to normal happiness, they return to normal life. As for the now wheelchair confined people, I'd say they are just trying to make the most of what they still have thus are lying about how they are really feeling and forgetting or blocking out the past that can't be changed.

Now in saying this I'm not your normal everyday person, I'm VERY abnormal actually and there is NOBODY else similar to me in the world that I've ever come across. For me however hedonic adaption doesn't exist nor do I suddenly find myself in a bad mood without reason. I also don't believe anti-depressants do anything because, for me, it's not about chemicals in the brain determining my mood. Note that I've never had anti-depressants so technically no, I don't have experience there but I find the whole idea of a tablet making you happy absolutely ridiculous because mood for ME is dependant completely on the state of my life. For me, my life hasn't been great but it also could have been a LOT worse. Thus, my whole life I've hated being alive. But the light at the end of the tunnel is retirement and it's the only thing keeping me going.

Anyway back to the point... If hedonic adaption exists (and effects everyone) then what is the point of retiring at all, ever? The point of life is to be as happy as possible, right? Doing whatever things we like that make US happy. According to the theory of hedonic adaption, a person would retire, get a thrill and rush from it, then after 2 months return to the same level of happiness that they experienced during their working years. FOR ME, having to work (I hate my current job but I hated my previous job even more thus I'm happier now than I was) to survive is THE REASON I hate being alive. I'd rather live in a $50,000 Broken Hill, NSW property with no job and a small $200 per week passive income to support myself than a $5,000,000 mansion in Sydney by the sea if it meant the difference between working and not working. That's why my whole life at present is based on building a passive income in order to retire and finally start enjoying life.

If I had to rate my life at present from 1 being on the edge of a cliff about to commit suicide to 100, being as happy as if I was in heaven (not that I'm religious) I'd rate it around 23. The worst time in my life was the later highschool years coming up towards the HSC (the big test that I was told determines the rest of my life). Back then I'd rate my life as 4. I used to have terrible nightmares every night of my life from as early as I could remember to 2010. A creature would come and kill me over and over again (and yes I felt horrible pain in my dreams when it bit me, so I do feel pain in dreams unlike other people) every night until I moved to a new house. The day I moved to a new house was the day I stopped having those nightmares and thus, my quality of life at that point permanently went up by 10 on the scale. There was no adapting there... my happiness of not experiencing those painful nightmares has lasted but the rest of my life still sucks...

Same goes for my job. I used to be in an awful job for over 3 years with very abusive people and that job was worse than my school years where I got bullied on a daily basis and stressed out about tests. From school to work my happiness level went down and stayed down. Now however I am happier and remaining happier that I'm no longer in school or that other terrible job. There is no adaption there whatsoever.

Same goes for my love of computers. My first computer and monitor I hated back almost 2 decades ago. It was better than nothing specs wise and what I could do wise just wasn't good enough. I continued to get more and more expensive computers and monitors every 4-5 years until 2014 when I was finally happy with what I got because technology finally caught up with my expectations. Unfortunately the particular specifications in 2014 cost close to 10K but from there they can only get cheaper as better spec systems come out and push down the price of my current spec computer. There was no adapting there, I honestly was always disappointed with computers until I got my 2014 build and now I'm going to continue to buy the same specs every 5 years and watch as it gets cheaper every time (obviously there will be a point where I can't get my current specs so I'll just buy the cheapest reliable system at that point in time). There is no adaption there... I've always had expectations of computers and that expectation took almost 2 decades to meet and now that it's met I'm happy. NO ADAPTION EXISTS FOR ME!

So my question for the general population that seems to suffer from hedonic adaption is WHY do you want to retire if no matter what happens you will always remain at the same level of happiness in the long term no matter how much freedom early retirement gives you. Do you all suffer from hedonic adaptation or are some of you like me actually completely immune from it? Does it really exist at all?

[WTPF]

I think you answered your own post when you stated that you would rather live in Broken Hill without having to work than in some fancy mansion in Sydney but having to continue working. The main reason for achieving financial independence is the freedom that it provides. If you enjoy your work, there is no requirement to retire.

Hedonic adaptation simply suggests that the 'buzz' of a new toy or experience becomes the norm over time. However, if you can learn to be more mindful of the present and grateful for the things that you currently already have, then your life can be richer without having the craving for more and more which only satisfies the 'itch' for a short time and thus sets up a never ending spiral like a dog chasing its tail.

[maizefolk]

Hey Jupiter, welcome back to the boards. I'm glad to hear things seem to be going better for you.

In answer to your question, hedonic adaption does not appear to apply equally to all things in life. The effect of buying a fancy new car or going on a swanky vacation definitely wears off after a few months. However, one counter example is that divorcing a spouse you don't get along with produces a consistent and long term boost in ones overall happiness.* I'd say for most people having the freedom to quit a job they don't care for is more similar to divorcing a spouse they don't care for than buying a fancy new car.

*Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-985X.2006.00403.x/abstract;jsessionid=1780C40A0E714B5F5BD852A154BEDC8D.f02t01

[Bucksandreds]

Thanks, OP.  Made me think.  My opinion is that hedonic adaptation has a stronger correlation with physical things but does exist with experiences, freedom from work being one of them.  One would definitely be more conscience of their freedom from work early on but could still appreciate it over time as proved to me by the countless conversations that I've had with the elderly.  Even decades after retirement most wished they'd done it earlier.  My in laws, only drive Audis. They expect a car to be just like an Audi and I can see my father in law cringe when he rarely gets into my Fiesta.  He tells me that he wished he'd retired earlier all th time.  He never talks about how much he enjoys his Audis and their Audi convertible is driven several times per year.  He gets to appreciate his retirement every day. He appreciates his Audi convertible less than once per month and, from my experience, doesn't appreciate his nice car as much as he looks down on not nice cars.  The retirement has been a net positive on his life. Not sure under what circumstances you would say his Audi convertible has been a positive.  Maybe the day he drove it off the lot. You do have a point, IMHO.  That's why instead of retiring super early, I will begin in my late 30s, downshifting my days and hours of work.  I'll go from 40 per week to mid 20s. 5-10 years later I'll drop another 8-10 hours until fully retiring in my 50s.  I'll get several more freedom events over my career instead of one. Being a dentist makes the time shifting very easy.

[undercover]

Now in saying this I'm not your normal everyday person, I'm VERY abnormal actually and there is NOBODY else similar to me in the world that I've ever come across.

Yes, it's true, no one else has had the exact same experience or done exactly what you've done. But that's true for everyone. And that's about the extent of it. Beyond that, of course people have different personalities and brains and disorders and diseases; but we're all more alike, especially structurally, than you seem to think. You do sound depressed, and many depressed people tend to think there's no one else that goes through what they do.

For me however hedonic adaption doesn't exist nor do I suddenly find myself in a bad mood without reason. I also don't believe anti-depressants do anything because, for me, it's not about chemicals in the brain determining my mood.

Whether you realize it or not, there is a reason. It is about chemicals in the brain, there's no denying that. Are you trying to refute years and years of brain studies and imaging based on a hunch about yourself? The real argument in the "depressed world" isn't about whether chemicals are the cause, it's what's causing the chemicals. People argue whether it's the negative thoughts and negative self-image that causes the imbalance in chemicals or whether it's a natural imbalance that can only be cured with medicine.

Back to the main point...you are not immune to hedonic adaptation. Can you not connect the dots and use your own examples to realize that you're not nor have you ever been immune? You say that you've always knew the appropriate computer setup that one needs to be happy. You're still not happy, because you're on here posting about things that are clearly continuing to make you unhappy.

Hedonic adaptation is actually not the problem. It's actually fine that it exists. What the site advocates is to not apply your feelings of inadequacy and desires for more to material possessions or experiences until you're financially secure. It's better to feel like you have an inadequate amount of cash than it is to feel like you have an inadequate amount of iPhones.

For the record, I absolutely believe the act of quitting your job and never having to work again is not immune to hedonic adaptation. It's absolutely a form of it - otherwise we wouldn't work so hard for it. It IS like that shiny new toy that we've always wanted. But that doesn't mean that you're going to start blowing your money and having to go back to work. It just means that you're going to move on to "better" things. And nothing is really "better" after you've gotten used to it. Read this: http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/11/life-is-picture-but-you-live-in-pixel.html

But, "retiring" doesn't have to mean "doing nothing". It can simply be a new chapter in your life where you're free to do whatever you want. You will always crave change, challenge, and fulfillment. It's what it means to be alive. Otherwise, you're dead.

[Bertram]

Well, it's a complex question and while we throw around the term "hedonic adaptation" a lot, there's a lot of variables to it that are not well researched or understood. Check out this:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/files/attachments/496/hedonic-adaptation-positive-experiences.pdf

It makes the case that we influence whether and how much we adapt with conscious and unconscious strategies, even in the case of material stuff (the authors are referencing a Porsche in the conclusion).

I'd say the great plus of FIRE is the freedom to make changes, it enhances your ability to influence things that you/your life are subject to. Probably closer to Epicurean (avoid pain)  world view than to stoic worldview (you can always find serenity by learning to accept the things you cannot change). But that's just my two cents.

[mozar]

I frame it differently. The hedonic treadmill makes it so that whenever I gain something, I adapt, and then start looking for the next thing. So I used to hate my job too. Then I found out through MMM that I could change it. So I got a better job. Then I adapted to something better. And I thought "is this it? Wait, I can do even better." Then I got an even better job. Now that I have a better job I have started to adapt, and I'm starting to think, how can I do even better. I see the adapting as a good thing, as it motivates me to do the next thing. Also hedonic adaptation is mostly about events, it's not really about recovering from depression, which you seem to be doing.

[marty998]

So my question for the general population that seems to suffer from hedonic adaption is WHY do you want to retire if no matter what happens you will always remain at the same level of happiness in the long term no matter how much freedom early retirement gives you. Do you all suffer from hedonic adaptation or are some of you like me actually completely immune from it? Does it really exist at all?

Why? Simple really. I spend 60 hours a week either working or travelling to and from work.

When I retire, I will have those 60 hours to do whatever I choose to do, not what I have to do.

My base level of happiness will (with 100% certainty) increase when this happens.

[marty998]

So my question for the general population that seems to suffer from hedonic adaption is WHY do you want to retire if no matter what happens you will always remain at the same level of happiness in the long term no matter how much freedom early retirement gives you. Do you all suffer from hedonic adaptation or are some of you like me actually completely immune from it? Does it really exist at all?

Why? Simple really. I spend 60 hours a week either working or travelling to and from work.

When I retire, I will have those 60 hours to do whatever I choose to do, not what I have to do.

My base level of happiness will (with 100% certainty) increase when this happens.

But according to hedonic adaption no matter what we do we will return to our normal level of happiness. 2 months after retiring you will be just as happy as you were when you were working 60 hours per week. I know, that sounds nuts and that's why I brought this topic up... if hedonic adaption exists and effects everything then no matter what you do in life you will NEVER be happy thus there is no point to early retirement what so ever. In this topic however we discussed that the concept of hedonic adaption doesn't apply to everything and is over exaggerated.

In conclusion, early retirement is immune from hedonic adaption unlike objects like cars so that's what we should spend our lives trying to achieve it followed by whatever aspirations we have and can follow upon retirement.

Of course for me... I would want enough money in retirement to keep building as if I was still working for safety reasons such as an unexpected disease I have to pay for but that's just me.

I the space of 3 posts you call yourself a special snowflake unlike any other in the world, then go on to say that because of hedonic adaptation you are guaranteed to fall back to a level of happiness that you were before after a major life event?

There's a contradiction there... you can't have it both ways. If you truly believe you are different, and unlike any other person in the world, then it has to be possible that hedonic adaptation doesn't have to apply to everyone.

[azure975]

But according to hedonic adaption no matter what we do we will return to our normal level of happiness. 2 months after retiring you will be just as happy as you were when you were working 60 hours per week. I know, that sounds nuts and that's why I brought this topic up... if hedonic adaption exists and effects everything then no matter what you do in life you will NEVER be happy thus there is no point to early retirement what so ever.

I've wondered a lot about this too. Mainly because I don't want to be focusing so much on FIRE as a goal if I'm not going to be any happier after achieving it. However, I can definitely think of circumstances in my life where I was much happier and other circumstances in my life where I was very unhappy, and I did not adapt to these circumstances. I only became happier when the circumstances changed. So that seems to contradict the concept of hedonic adaptation. I'm still trying to figure this one out.

Btw, I've been watching this http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/compared-to-pre-fire-how-much-happier-are-you-post-fire/ thread with interest--the majority of responders have said they are "much happier" after FIRE, so that seems to go against the concept of hedonic adaptation.

[Tyson]

New cool things give us pleasure.  Pleasure is not happiness.

[redbird]

Early retirement isn't at all equivalent to buying some luxury. It's the gift that keeps giving. Why? You have time. Time is different from material luxuries because you can do whatever you want with it. You can learn new things, pick up a new hobby, work on old hobbies, volunteer, travel, get fit, meet new friends, and many more things. The potential things you can do with that time is almost limitless.

[undercover]

if hedonic adaption exists and effects everything then no matter what you do in life you will NEVER be happy thus there is no point to early retirement what so ever.

It's not that you will never be happy - it's that you won't always be happy. And why is happiness necessarily the goal at all times? Happiness isn't something you can chase - it's fairly elusive. In one day, I can go from fairly happy to very neutral/indifferent to very sad. It just depends on what's happening, where I'm at, or how I'm feeling in general about life. There's no secret to long-term happiness. But, being financially free can't hurt.

Money never made anyone happy but not having an adequate amount can surely contribute to misery. If given a choice between the two, I'd rather have money (aka freedom) while being miserable than not.

In conclusion, early retirement is immune from hedonic adaption unlike objects like cars so that's what we should spend our lives trying to achieve it followed by whatever aspirations we have and can follow upon retirement.

Early retirement, once achieved, will become the "new normal", thus it is not immune to the principle of hedonic adaptation no more than I'm immune to gravity. I'm referring to the actual state of being financially free/retired early - I'm not referring to what other activities or challenges you'll seek after reaching this "state". My point is that if you simply say "okay, I'm retired, this is amazing", eventually that will change to "this is it, okay, I'm ready for something else".  Anything new that you acquire (whether it be an object or an experience) will eventually become normal to you, even though at first it was quite amazing. The point in having money and freedom means that you can more easily try out new things and continue to be challenged in new ways because you have bought time (as redbird said). ER/FI is a goal worth achieving, to be sure, but it isn't the end of the line. It never is.

The point is that ER/FI won't solve all your problems. If you're depressed now, you'll still be depressed after ER. There's nothing you can possibly do whilst alive to solve ALL of your problems. You will always have problems. You'll solve some problems but it will open the door to new problems. That's just life.

[azure975]

And why is happiness necessarily the goal at all times? Happiness isn't something you can chase - it's fairly elusive. In one day, I can go from fairly happy to very neutral/indifferent to very sad. It just depends on what's happening, where I'm at, or how I'm feeling in general about life. There's no secret to long-term happiness. But, being financially free can't hurt.

I know that everyone has different motivations/goals/philosophies but for me, happiness is the main thing I strive for in life. It is certainly elusive and people are notoriously bad at predicting what will make them happy, but I'm just trying to increase my odds here. Research has shown that using your money for certain things are more likely to make you happy than using it for other things. I'm making a bet that FIRE is one of the things that has higher odds of increasing my happiness than say, buying luxury goods. I hope I'm right!

[jim555]

"hedonic adaption" = load of rubblish

[steveo]

Early retirement isn't at all equivalent to buying some luxury. It's the gift that keeps giving. Why? You have time. Time is different from material luxuries because you can do whatever you want with it. You can learn new things, pick up a new hobby, work on old hobbies, volunteer, travel, get fit, meet new friends, and many more things. The potential things you can do with that time is almost limitless.

Exactly. I think hedonic adaptation is more related to possessions however I think that it is more complex than that. For instance I use to buy a new computer every so often because it would get dated or start to get crappy. I bought all the parts for my current computer, put it all together and installed Linux on it. I have adapted to this PC but it was such a good purchase that I don't want to upgrade or get something better. I may add a part here or there as things break or require a technical upgrade but this computer was such a good purchase that I don't want anything better. I've had this computer now for 4 years and it still works great.

If you purchase something or create something in your life like ER it can be something that has a positive impact on your life for a long period of time.

[k290]

 I would suggest reading: Pages 200-220 of this book:
https://books.google.co.za/books?hl=en&lr=&id=z1HG15HeqNQC&oi=fnd&pg=PA200&dq=hedonic+adaptation&ots=n7u6LC3uDs&sig=Jen3dNfa0H0OVDyFJaF8lQ4qL54#v=onepage&q=hedonic%20adaptation&f=false

It should help, with a summary of what we do know and don't know about hedonic adaptation, and is very well cited. It then goes into detail into the circumstances/events that do allow you to overcome hedonic adaptation.

An informed summary is as follows:
->Scienctific research has shown us hedonic adaptation is a thing.
->Hedonic adaptation is not an all-encompassing mechanism that prevents you from having sustained increased or decreased levels of happiness.
->Scientific research has shown us that you can still increase and preserve your happiness in spite of hedonic adaptation.

Your belief that hedonic adaptation does not exist is false.
Your belief that hedonic adaptation means that you will always return to a baseline level of happiness in all situations is false.
Your belief that Eary Retirement is guaranteed to be a affected by hedonic adaptation is false.

[SnackDog]

I find it more effective to keep the dream alive by not giving in to temptation. Don't ever buy the computer (btw, what are you doing with a computer that it costs 10k to meet your expectations?  You want a waterproof one or what?), the convertible, the house, etc.  The fun, as Wayne Carini states "is all about the chase".  Once you catch it, the fun is over and you beset with the drudgery of maintaining the car/house, etc.  Men, in particlar, are natural-born hunter/chasers.  Go ahead - hunt and chase, just don't catch.

I'm a car and house nut.  I can literally spend hours a day looking at interesting cars and homes, either in person or on the net. I love cool designs. All those I look at I could afford and they are really interesting to me.  But I'm not buying.  It's more fun to look.  I also get some weird satisfaction from seeing a really fabulous vehicle at a car show, then being glad I'm not the owner having to maintain, clean, insure, etc said vehicle.  Same goes for home tours - "love this place, keep up the good work, let me know when I'm invited to a dinner party".  I have a friend who likes to fish.  He has spent fortunes on fishing boats in the past. No more. Now he has stable of friends who invite him fishing on their boats. He pays the fuel, the beer, everything because he knows how much he is saving in cost and headaches not owning the boat.

I don't really need a car, for example, and currently my employer provides one which is about the most luxurious I have ever owned.  If I retire I might have to buy one and might be terribly torn between what is the most frugal and what is the most interesting (and what my spouse mandates!).

[faramund]

Some of the above has suggested that hedonic adaption only applies to things, but I think its more likely to be anything of the same thing. So if you like say a massage, you will get less enjoyment from the 10th one, and over time the marginal enjoyment from each one is less.

I think retirement is different, because you are able to do some activity, and when its novelty wears off, you can do a different activity.

So I suspect that's one of the real advantages of retirement, the absence of a large group of annoying work-related things, and its replacement by whatever is the most enjoyable/interesting thing to do at each point in time, and if that changes, well, thats all to the good.

[Bertram]

I would suggest reading: Pages 200-220 of this book:
https://books.google.co.za/books?hl=en&lr=&id=z1HG15HeqNQC&oi=fnd&pg=PA200&dq=hedonic+adaptation&ots=n7u6LC3uDs&sig=Jen3dNfa0H0OVDyFJaF8lQ4qL54#v=onepage&q=hedonic%20adaptation&f=false

It should help, with a summary of what we do know and don't know about hedonic adaptation, and is very well cited. It then goes into detail into the circumstances/events that do allow you to overcome hedonic adaptation.

An informed summary is as follows:
->Scienctific research has shown us hedonic adaptation is a thing.
->Hedonic adaptation is not an all-encompassing mechanism that prevents you from having sustained increased or decreased levels of happiness.
->Scientific research has shown us that you can still increase and preserve your happiness in spite of hedonic adaptation.

Excellent Link. Also happens to be the exact chapter I linked to further above. :D Though nobody seems to have taken a look at it unfortunately. It really covers a whole lot of misunderstandings/misconceptions from this thread.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/files/attachments/496/hedonic-adaptation-positive-experiences.pdf

[mikefixac]

OP Jupiter, you're one funny dude. Are you a comedy writer by trade? Thanks for the laughs.

[faramund]

Excellent Link. Also happens to be the exact chapter I linked to further above. :D Though nobody seems to have taken a look at it unfortunately. It really covers a whole lot of misunderstandings/misconceptions from this thread.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/files/attachments/496/hedonic-adaptation-positive-experiences.pdf

Well, maybe not nobody, I'm working through it now, and it seems very thought provoking - thanks!

[big_slacker]

I think hedonic adaptation helped me. I grew up poor and as I got richer and richer moving up the job ladder and like many buying newer and nicer things...... I found out my life wasn't really any better above a certain point so I've sold most of the stuff with a few exceptions that bring me regular happiness. Now I'm just focused on building up a big enough nut so I can continue on with the stuff that I REALLY like (family, friends, playing outside) with less time needed for what just amounts to maintenance of lifestyle.

[rachael talcott]

Ten years ago when I was in a bad situation, I was worried about my mental state and took some tests on U of Penn's website on happiness and depression (https://www.authentichappiness.sas.upenn.edu/testcenter).  Three years ago, I went back to the website to retake the tests, and realized that it had saved my previous information.  I took the tests for a third time a year ago.  There is a definite trend of increasing happiness for me over the decade.  I went from the 25th percentile to the 80th percentile on the "authentic happiness inventory."  So at least for me, getting out of a bad job to a slightly better one and then to a much better one with the prospect of early retirement has apparently led to a long-term increase in happiness.  Or perhaps I'm just a very slow adapter. 

At the same time, I can imagine that if I won the lottery I would pretty quickly adapt, because I'm already set to retire in a year.  It just would not make much difference to the things that matter to me because I'm already basically FI and therefore have control over my life that I didn't have ten years ago. 

[ender]

But according to hedonic adaption no matter what we do we will return to our normal level of happiness. 2 months after retiring you will be just as happy as you were when you were working 60 hours per week. I know, that sounds nuts and that's why I brought this topic up... if hedonic adaption exists and effects everything then no matter what you do in life you will NEVER be happy thus there is no point to early retirement what so ever. In this topic however we discussed that the concept of hedonic adaption doesn't apply to everything and is over exaggerated.

The fundamental misunderstanding in your analysis is assuming that all effects of working are purely preferential. In other words, that your happiness is purely based on your feelings about circumstances (which is more or less the principle behind hedonic adaption).

However, for nearly everyone, being required to work results in physical and psychological drawbacks that can be removed upon early retirement.

For example, the easiest and most trivial examples are stress and exercise. Many people work jobs which have significant negative effects in terms of additional stress and lack of exercise, whether due to work requirements or lack of time outside work. These are not merely "imagined" things that can be wished away through adapting to circumstances. Yes, you can adapt to better handle stress or rework your life in order to be more active but at the end of the day you cannot fully "hedonic adaption" away these physical and psychological negatives caused by work.

[steveo]

However, for nearly everyone, being required to work results in physical and psychological drawbacks that can be removed upon early retirement.

For example, the easiest and most trivial examples are stress and exercise. Many people work jobs which have significant negative effects in terms of additional stress and lack of exercise, whether due to work requirements or lack of time outside work. These are not merely "imagined" things that can be wished away through adapting to circumstances. Yes, you can adapt to better handle stress or rework your life in order to be more active but at the end of the day you cannot fully "hedonic adaption" away these physical and psychological negatives caused by work.

This is a good point. Work has a massive impact on your life.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Human memory is unreliable, which is how we get over tragedy but also misleads us to oversimplify 'how horrible or great' the past was.  That's not to say that having better circumstances won't make you happier though.  I'm certainly happier in general after hitting FI than I was when I initially joined the 'forced to work'-force. 

If I can convince myself that Early Retirement has been well earned and that I 'have to get out there and do x y z', then I'll probably be more content and happy about that too.  Currently, if I quit a job that I enjoy and gives me a cover to also pursue my own interests and not have to deal with negative reactions from family and peers on a consistent basis, I might have a negative view of having chosen ER.  No way of knowing until I cross over, but fun to ponder.

[FireLane]

From what I understand, hedonic adaptation doesn't apply equally to everything. Some things have a lasting effect on your overall happiness level. One of those is commuting:

http://lifehacker.com/ditching-your-commute-is-the-happiness-equivalent-of-a-1679698849

If you have a short commute, this may not matter, but for those of us with substantial commutes, we can expect to be genuinely happier after we're FIREd. I'd also assume that the permanent reduction in stress from not working anymore is another of those things that makes a difference.

[cerat0n1a]

Great link, Bertram, lots to think about.

[dude]

I think it comes down to this -- once freed from the need to sell your time for a living, you are free to do a million things you otherwise couldn't because of the 40-80/week commitment.  Hard to hedonically adapt to a million different things -- meaning, you can do one thing until it no longer adds to your happiness, and then promptly switch to something else that does.  It's about a state of constant discovery and living in the moment.  I think you can stay ahead of hedonic adaptation by constantly changing the scene, the backdrop of your life, by learning and doing new things and experiencing new and different people and places.  And I think this sort of life leads to a depth of character where one can find that nirvana state, that place where you are happy being who you are in the place where you are.  And then who cares if you adapt to it?  It's where you want to be.

[Bajadoc]

"hedonic adaption" = load of rubblish

Thank you.

[Chris22]

I think there are two sorta "factions" chasing ER, though, there's the side that has things they desperately want to do (hobbies) that are their passion and they need the time to devote to them.  That I really get.  Hard to devote your life to hiking or building motorcycles or woodworking or painting or what have you when you are chained to a 9-5.  MMM himself falls into this with his construction.

The other side though, they seem to be running from a job (either their current job they hate or the idea of having a job) and don't seem to have a real goal aside from "not work."  To me, running from something is very different than running to something.  I was also surprised at how many people responded to the "what do you want to do in retirement" thread with "sleep more and take lots of naps".  To need that much sleep, that sounds like depression.  These are also the kinds of people who strike me that they will continue to be unhappy in retirement, as they haven't found something to fulfill themselves.  I also wonder how this aligns with MMM's "stoicism" of embracing discomfort.  Running from work seems to be the opposite of stoicism in my book, but I'm not sure.  I also thought that MMM preaching stoicism but pulling his kid out of public school because the kid didn't like standing in line was a bit silly, but again, what do I know?

[golden1]

Now in saying this I'm not your normal everyday person, I'm VERY abnormal actually and there is NOBODY else similar to me in the world that I've ever come across. For me however hedonic adaption doesn't exist nor do I suddenly find myself in a bad mood without reason. I also don't believe anti-depressants do anything because, for me, it's not about chemicals in the brain determining my mood. Note that I've never had anti-depressants so technically no, I don't have experience there but I find the whole idea of a tablet making you happy absolutely ridiculous because mood for ME is dependant completely on the state of my life. For me, my life hasn't been great but it also could have been a LOT worse. Thus, my whole life I've hated being alive. But the light at the end of the tunnel is retirement and it's the only thing keeping me going.

Hah!  You aren't unique.  You sound EXACTLY like I did 15 years ago..  I thought that my moods were entirely due to life factors that were beyond my control.  If only I had X, I would be happy.  If only I weren't working, I would be happy.  And like you, I was never completely miserable, but never really happy either.  I hated my job, and I wanted to have kids so I counted down the days until it was the right time to start a family.  When I first quit, I really was happy.  For awhile.  Then I wasn't.  Then I REALLY wasn't.  It took me dipping into severe depression before I decided to give anti-depressants a try.   I didn't really expect them to work, but I began to feel better, even though my life circumstances were the same.  I was diagnosed with dysthymia and changed my life and things are better.

I would rather work the rest of my life and be happy then retire and be miserable.  You can be happy or miserable no matter what your life circumstances are. 

[GuitarStv]

The term 'hedonic adaptation' is used to describe what I'd call 'false happiness'.  There are a great many things that you think you want, where upon getting them and living with them for a while . . . it turns out you were wrong.

Maybe you think you want a convertible sports car.  After a while of owning it however, little everyday things start to turn up that make it less fun.  Maybe you don't like the breeze on your balding head, maybe you don't like the premium gas that it gulps down, maybe it doesn't make you the sex symbol you thought it would and you just feel kind of sad and empty each time you take it out.  That's an example of something that causes hedonic adaptation.

There are things that will give you true and lasting happiness.  Learning what these are though is often quite an eye-opener.  If you have sufficient food, water, a roof over your head, aren't in pain from some medical condition, and have good friends to pass the time with . . . the odds are that you're going to be pretty happy as long as you've learned to ignore the alluring 'false happiness' things pushed at you by envy, greed, and advertising.  Early retirement is a way to achieve food, drink, and shelter while also making extra time for friendship/family and things that promote health.

[Chris22]

Maybe you think you want a convertible sports car.  After a while of owning it however, little everyday things start to turn up that make it less fun.  Maybe you don't like the breeze on your balding head, maybe you don't like the premium gas that it gulps down, maybe it doesn't make you the sex symbol you thought it would and you just feel kind of sad and empty each time you take it out.  That's an example of something that causes hedonic adaptation.

It's funny, because my convertible sports car is basically my only personal example of being immune to hedonic adaption; I've owned mine for 9 years and counting and it still makes me deliriously happy.  It's probably the only material possession I own for which I can make that claim.  I bet you feel similarly about your bike. 

[Tyson]

I would rather work the rest of my life and be happy then retire and be miserable.  You can be happy or miserable no matter what your life circumstances are.

This is very true - you have the capacity to be happy almost regardless of your exact specific circumstances.  I see a lot of this type of thinking "If I retire, then I'll be happy".  But why wait?  Why not be happy now?  Sure being retired might help make being happy easier, but it won't do it for you.  And regardless, you still have to live.  Between now and retirement is a good chunk of time.  Why waste it pining away waiting for retirement to come and make you happy (which it might not).  Why not go figure out how to be happy NOW, and then retirement is just icing on the cake of your already-happy life? 

[Bajadoc]

Maybe you think you want a convertible sports car.  After a while of owning it however, little everyday things start to turn up that make it less fun.  Maybe you don't like the breeze on your balding head, maybe you don't like the premium gas that it gulps down, maybe it doesn't make you the sex symbol you thought it would and you just feel kind of sad and empty each time you take it out.  That's an example of something that causes hedonic adaptation.

It's funny, because my convertible sports car is basically my only personal example of being immune to hedonic adaption; I've owned mine for 9 years and counting and it still makes me deliriously happy.  It's probably the only material possession I own for which I can make that claim.  I bet you feel similarly about your bike.

I have had my fancy sports car for 12 years and still get a major kick out of it every time I drive or work on it. My wife and I are planning a cross country marathon road trip in it this summer. I never "adapted" to it.

[GuitarStv]

Maybe you think you want a convertible sports car.  After a while of owning it however, little everyday things start to turn up that make it less fun.  Maybe you don't like the breeze on your balding head, maybe you don't like the premium gas that it gulps down, maybe it doesn't make you the sex symbol you thought it would and you just feel kind of sad and empty each time you take it out.  That's an example of something that causes hedonic adaptation.

It's funny, because my convertible sports car is basically my only personal example of being immune to hedonic adaption; I've owned mine for 9 years and counting and it still makes me deliriously happy.  It's probably the only material possession I own for which I can make that claim.  I bet you feel similarly about your bike.

I have had my fancy sports car for 12 years and still get a major kick out of it every time I drive or work on it. My wife and I are planning a cross country marathon road trip in it this summer. I never "adapted" to it.

Guys, it was an example, not an attack on your mid-life crisis.  :P

My point was, there are some things fundamental things that you will never adapt to.  Food, water, shelter, friends.  Achieving these fundamentals should be your priority in life (fortunately they're not generally all that hard to get).  Once achieved then you are free to enjoy life in any way that appeals to you.

The problem with thinking of a material possession (such as a car, or a bike, or anything else) as a fundamental need for happiness is that they can be taken away from you.  Maybe something horrific happens and you lose your fortune and can't afford the car.  Maybe the car is stolen.  Maybe it becomes illegal to drive the car due to the ICE and better regulations, or the roads in your neighborhood become so rutted that it's no longer fun.  Maybe you become old and dementia or poor eyesight prevents you from driving.  Whatever.

If you accept that it's transitory, losing it isn't going to affect your happiness long term.  If you believe that it's a necessity, you will always be pining away for something you once had.  It will forever be a roadblock preventing you from achieving happiness.

[Bajadoc]

Maybe you think you want a convertible sports car.  After a while of owning it however, little everyday things start to turn up that make it less fun.  Maybe you don't like the breeze on your balding head, maybe you don't like the premium gas that it gulps down, maybe it doesn't make you the sex symbol you thought it would and you just feel kind of sad and empty each time you take it out.  That's an example of something that causes hedonic adaptation.

It's funny, because my convertible sports car is basically my only personal example of being immune to hedonic adaption; I've owned mine for 9 years and counting and it still makes me deliriously happy.  It's probably the only material possession I own for which I can make that claim.  I bet you feel similarly about your bike.

I have had my fancy sports car for 12 years and still get a major kick out of it every time I drive or work on it. My wife and I are planning a cross country marathon road trip in it this summer. I never "adapted" to it.

Guys, it was an example, not an attack on your mid-life crisis.  :P

My point was, there are some things fundamental things that you will never adapt to.  Food, water, shelter, friends.  Achieving these fundamentals should be your priority in life (fortunately they're not generally all that hard to get).  Once achieved then you are free to enjoy life in any way that appeals to you.

The problem with thinking of a material possession (such as a car, or a bike, or anything else) as a fundamental need for happiness is that they can be taken away from you.  Maybe something horrific happens and you lose your fortune and can't afford the car.  Maybe the car is stolen.  Maybe it becomes illegal to drive the car due to the ICE and better regulations, or the roads in your neighborhood become so rutted that it's no longer fun.  Maybe you become old and dementia or poor eyesight prevents you from driving.  Whatever.

If you accept that it's transitory, losing it isn't going to affect your happiness long term.  If you believe that it's a necessity, you will always be pining away for something you once had.  It will forever be a roadblock preventing you from achieving happiness.

You are correct, of course. Why do you assume people who like to have some material possessions find them fundamental to happiness? I like to have a few nice things, but obviously, they are all transitory. I think the point would be to not have crap that detracts from happiness. You sound like a thinking person, if you are ever in Los Angeles, dinner and drinks are on me.

[GuitarStv]

You are correct, of course. Why do you assume people who like to have some material possessions find them fundamental to happiness? I like to have a few nice things, but obviously, they are all transitory. I think the point would be to not have crap that detracts from happiness. You sound like a thinking person, if you are ever in Los Angeles, dinner and drinks are on me.

It's human nature to improve our situation, get used to things, and then decide that to be happy we need whatever we've currently got . . . and that one other thing.  Satisfaction with and appreciation for what you have is far too rare these days.  You can always get used to more, but for most it's very hard to get used to less.  The key is to regularly remind yourself what's really necessary for happiness (very little).

The idea of living in an Epicurean commune gets more and more appealing to me as I get closer to FI.  :P

[Bajadoc]

You are correct, of course. Why do you assume people who like to have some material possessions find them fundamental to happiness? I like to have a few nice things, but obviously, they are all transitory. I think the point would be to not have crap that detracts from happiness. You sound like a thinking person, if you are ever in Los Angeles, dinner and drinks are on me.

It's human nature to improve our situation, get used to things, and then decide that to be happy we need whatever we've currently got . . . and that one other thing.  Satisfaction with and appreciation for what you have is far too rare these days.  You can always get used to more, but for most it's very hard to get used to less.  The key is to regularly remind yourself what's really necessary for happiness (very little).



The idea of living in an Epicurean commune gets more and more appealing to me as I get closer to FI.  :P

If I may, one last word. I will skip the Epicurean commune and stay in my big private comfortable house by the beach.

[Chris22]

Maybe you think you want a convertible sports car.  After a while of owning it however, little everyday things start to turn up that make it less fun.  Maybe you don't like the breeze on your balding head, maybe you don't like the premium gas that it gulps down, maybe it doesn't make you the sex symbol you thought it would and you just feel kind of sad and empty each time you take it out.  That's an example of something that causes hedonic adaptation.

It's funny, because my convertible sports car is basically my only personal example of being immune to hedonic adaption; I've owned mine for 9 years and counting and it still makes me deliriously happy.  It's probably the only material possession I own for which I can make that claim.  I bet you feel similarly about your bike.

I have had my fancy sports car for 12 years and still get a major kick out of it every time I drive or work on it. My wife and I are planning a cross country marathon road trip in it this summer. I never "adapted" to it.

Guys, it was an example, not an attack on your mid-life crisis.  :P

My point was, there are some things fundamental things that you will never adapt to.  Food, water, shelter, friends.  Achieving these fundamentals should be your priority in life (fortunately they're not generally all that hard to get).  Once achieved then you are free to enjoy life in any way that appeals to you.

The problem with thinking of a material possession (such as a car, or a bike, or anything else) as a fundamental need for happiness is that they can be taken away from you.  Maybe something horrific happens and you lose your fortune and can't afford the car.  Maybe the car is stolen.  Maybe it becomes illegal to drive the car due to the ICE and better regulations, or the roads in your neighborhood become so rutted that it's no longer fun.  Maybe you become old and dementia or poor eyesight prevents you from driving.  Whatever.

If you accept that it's transitory, losing it isn't going to affect your happiness long term.  If you believe that it's a necessity, you will always be pining away for something you once had.  It will forever be a roadblock preventing you from achieving happiness.

Given that I bought my sports car at 25, I should hope it was not a midlife crisis...


Anyways, my point is only that I see my car in the way that I imagine you see your bike, given that you are a biking enthusiast.  Is my car or your bike required to satisfy our basic level of needs?  No, it is not, but once those are satisfied, I'd imagine you and I might spend our next few resources trying to acquire bike/car.  And our lives are significantly more fulfilling when said bike/car is present because it makes us happy.  So to say the bike/car doesn't bring us happiness or that happiness is fleeting is inaccurate.  It seems as though this forum is happy to accept a bike can bring one happiness, I'm not sure why it's hard to think that others derive that same happiness from a car. 

[GuitarStv]

Maybe you think you want a convertible sports car.  After a while of owning it however, little everyday things start to turn up that make it less fun.  Maybe you don't like the breeze on your balding head, maybe you don't like the premium gas that it gulps down, maybe it doesn't make you the sex symbol you thought it would and you just feel kind of sad and empty each time you take it out.  That's an example of something that causes hedonic adaptation.

It's funny, because my convertible sports car is basically my only personal example of being immune to hedonic adaption; I've owned mine for 9 years and counting and it still makes me deliriously happy.  It's probably the only material possession I own for which I can make that claim.  I bet you feel similarly about your bike.

I have had my fancy sports car for 12 years and still get a major kick out of it every time I drive or work on it. My wife and I are planning a cross country marathon road trip in it this summer. I never "adapted" to it.

Guys, it was an example, not an attack on your mid-life crisis.  :P

My point was, there are some things fundamental things that you will never adapt to.  Food, water, shelter, friends.  Achieving these fundamentals should be your priority in life (fortunately they're not generally all that hard to get).  Once achieved then you are free to enjoy life in any way that appeals to you.

The problem with thinking of a material possession (such as a car, or a bike, or anything else) as a fundamental need for happiness is that they can be taken away from you.  Maybe something horrific happens and you lose your fortune and can't afford the car.  Maybe the car is stolen.  Maybe it becomes illegal to drive the car due to the ICE and better regulations, or the roads in your neighborhood become so rutted that it's no longer fun.  Maybe you become old and dementia or poor eyesight prevents you from driving.  Whatever.

If you accept that it's transitory, losing it isn't going to affect your happiness long term.  If you believe that it's a necessity, you will always be pining away for something you once had.  It will forever be a roadblock preventing you from achieving happiness.

Given that I bought my sports car at 25, I should hope it was not a midlife crisis...


Anyways, my point is only that I see my car in the way that I imagine you see your bike, given that you are a biking enthusiast.  Is my car or your bike required to satisfy our basic level of needs?  No, it is not, but once those are satisfied, I'd imagine you and I might spend our next few resources trying to acquire bike/car.  And our lives are significantly more fulfilling when said bike/car is present because it makes us happy.  So to say the bike/car doesn't bring us happiness or that happiness is fleeting is inaccurate.  It seems as though this forum is happy to accept a bike can bring one happiness, I'm not sure why it's hard to think that others derive that same happiness from a car.

I like riding a bike.  My life is not more fulfilling because I own a bike.  My happiness is not dependent upon my bike . . . if I couldn't ride it any more I'd find something else to do that is enjoyable.

No possession brings one true happiness.

[jim555]

No possession brings one true happiness.

If someone gave me a Tesla I think I would be pretty happy.

[GuitarStv]

No possession brings one true happiness.

If someone gave me a Tesla I think I would be pretty happy.

I'm sure that you do.

[azure975]

The other side though, they seem to be running from a job (either their current job they hate or the idea of having a job) and don't seem to have a real goal aside from "not work."  To me, running from something is very different than running to something.  I was also surprised at how many people responded to the "what do you want to do in retirement" thread with "sleep more and take lots of naps".  To need that much sleep, that sounds like depression.  These are also the kinds of people who strike me that they will continue to be unhappy in retirement, as they haven't found something to fulfill themselves.  I also wonder how this aligns with MMM's "stoicism" of embracing discomfort.  Running from work seems to be the opposite of stoicism in my book, but I'm not sure.  I also thought that MMM preaching stoicism but pulling his kid out of public school because the kid didn't like standing in line was a bit silly, but again, what do I know?

I am one of those who is on the side of running from work rather than running to something. I agree that it's not ideal, but I think having the freedom to not do something you dislike actually may bring more incremental happiness than being able to go from something they like to something (work) they like even more (a hobby). There are some people that just do not like work*--despite having tried different careers and paths. For us, NOT having to do that is akin to setting someone free from prison. Just being free from prison isn't going to make you happy in and of itself, but it's sure better than being incarcerated.

*At least in it's modern incarnation--8 hours in a cubicle. Would probably like doing random odd jobs that I do on my own terms, but can't get paid much for that, so will have to wait until FIRE.

[Bateaux]

If bored in retirement I just move on to  the  next adventure.   Work prevents variety not retirement.

[chesebert]

No possession brings one true happiness.

If someone gave me a Tesla I think I would be pretty happy.

I'm sure that you do.

I would too, provided that the donor also gross me up on the taxes.

[happy]

interesting thread, no time to read now, posting to follow

[steveo]

There are some people that just do not like work

This is me. Yesterday I worked from home and didn't do any work. I answered some emails. I rode my bike to the gym, wrestled, ate decent food and played some games (Civ 5 and chess).

Basically a frugal healthy existence which is all I need. Work gets in the way of that.