I think I understand the adverse reaction to MMM

[Cycling Stache]

As I've started thinking about and following many of the principles espoused by MMM, I also tried to understand the extreme negative responses that some people have.  Some are easy to understand--disbelief that anyone could really retire early, a view that living on $25,000 is living like a homeless person, a feeling that a person should enjoy life and not be miserly, etc.  There have been responses to all those.

I think the real--and strongest--criticism of MMM goes to happiness.  Because MMM is really about understanding that you don't need much to be happy.  He then couples it with the realization that if you don't need much and can therefore save a lot, you can retire early.  That was a critical insight.

But the thing is that MMM's principles largely falter if you don't get that you can be happy with less.  Otherwise, this is all painful sacrificing to get to an end result of early retirement, which maybe a few people here embrace, but for most of us it's about understanding that you're really not sacrificing your happiness at all by cutting back on spending, etc.

We've seen that principle play out plenty in the past, but primarily in the form of people who have left a high paying job to go live in a poor area of the world and report how happy they were to do so.  And while we often found those stories uplifting--and indeed, thought about them when particularly stressed at work, etc.--most people didn't really consider doing that because it seemed crazy.

What MMM brought to the table was the idea that you could couple the happy-with-less principle with saving a significant amount of money to get to early retirement.  But here's where it gets tricky.  Most people seem to save way too much for retirement.  Or they--like MMM--save the right amount but continue to earn money after retirement, which sounds almost inevitable, and so now have way too much.  The end result of financial independence then for most people actually is (1) continuing to work, (2) working even after retirement, or (3) saving too much for retirement.   In all three cases, the end result is too much money.

This is the key.  If people don't embrace the idea that they can be happy with less--a core MMM principle--all they see is people sacrificing (painfully) to save for the future.  But the future will almost certainly involve having more than enough money if properly executing most of MMM's principles.  People therefore struggle with the concept because they figure that if they're going to have more than enough in the end, why not enjoy the indulgences along the way and just settle in.

I get the reasons to work towards FIRE--erasing the stress of debt, not being bound to a job, etc.  But unless people also accept that they will be just as happy with less, there's going to be resistance to the idea of most likely ending up with extra money at the end of your life and feeling like you could have spent that money along the way to enjoy life more.

So for me, MMM still comes back to understanding that you can be just as happy with less.  To convince others to come aboard, you have to get them to understand that point.  Otherwise, you have to settle for the fall-back point that cutting back on spending now and saving more helps reduce the financial and job stress that so many suffer from.  Also good, but not quite full-blown MMM, it seems to me.
 

[so.mpls]

I think a lot of it is also the tone in which he writes.  It's meant to be abrasive to get the readers attention and "shock" them into a critical thinking state, and often times it's successful.  However, it also really comes across as pretty patronizing.  Like there is only one right way to think about your career, lifestyle, and finances and if you don't conform you're lazy and/or stupid.  A lot of people don't really mesh with the concept of FIRE because they can't see themselves retiring early.  To them, retiring early and living a simpler life is doing "less".  Why do less when you can be just as happy doing "more"? Why I am a financially flabby sucker for wanting to work hard for 50 years, live in a mansion and drive an expensive car? Why isn't this MMM guy the lazy one for retiring at 30 when he could have worked for 30 more years?

[Kris]

I think a lot of it is also the tone in which he writes.  It's meant to be abrasive to get the readers attention and "shock" them into a critical thinking state, and often times it's successful.  However, it also really comes across as pretty patronizing.  Like there is only one right way to think about your career, lifestyle, and finances and if you don't conform you're lazy and/or stupid.  A lot of people don't really mesh with the concept of FIRE because they can't see themselves retiring early.  To them, retiring early and living a simpler life is doing "less".  Why do less when you can be just as happy doing "more"? Why I am a financially flabby sucker for wanting to work hard for 50 years, live in a mansion and drive an expensive car? Why isn't this MMM guy the lazy one for retiring at 30 when he could have worked for 30 more years?

I agree with you. I have often felt that MMM's message probably "goes down" better with people who are already a little skeptical about consumer society to begin with, no matter what their spending habits are.  Or, people who are already a little anxious/dissatisfied with their spending and frustrated with themselves at not being able to control themselves better.  Or, people who are frustrated with their chosen careers, unhappy with their job, or just plain want more time to pursue things that they really love. 

I just today introduced MMM to a friend of mine who has for a long time had lots of problems related to financial control.  It came up naturally in conversation (like, I'm not someone people talk about for my frugal ways, and she doesn't really know much about my spending habits or, until today, about my early retirement plan).  I told her I'd send her the link to the blog and told her that MMM had constructed a persona that some people might find abrasive, but that it is all in good fun.  I don't know how she'll take it, but I'm hoping she might at least be open to his message because, despite the fact that she is a spendypants, she is very into environmentalism, natural foods, gardening, and wanting to reduce our impact on the earth. 

I would never introduce this blog to anyone who revels in their consumerism, no matter how much I thought they "needed" it. 

[Pigeon]

I think the MMM philosophy is not one size fits all.  Because some people are perfectly happy living on $25K/year, that doesn't mean everyone one will be.  I read MMM.  I take what I like and leave the rest.  Some people aspire to retire at 30, but that doesn't mean everyone does. 

Some people come here and get converted.  But there is nothing quite as annoying to others as the zeal of the convert.

[Kaspian]

All you have to do is watch one single episode of "Hoarders" to understand that people aren't happier with more.  Personally, I'm so much better off with less stuff--clearer mind and all that.

I think a lot of the adversity is just downright unjustified, indignant Internet rage.  "I haven't been living that way, therefore you fucking suck!!," seems to be the instant, kneejerk reaction people have to almost everything online lately.  :(

It's not just MMM that people attack, but almost every popular writer who suggests lifestyle may be a factor in debt versus success.

[Chris22]

But the thing is that MMM's principles largely falter if you don't get that you can be happy with less.  Otherwise, this is all painful sacrificing to get to an end result of early retirement, which maybe a few people here embrace, but for most of us it's about understanding that you're really not sacrificing your happiness at all by cutting back on spending, etc.

I think here's the problem. 

Take that whipping boy of consumerism, the iPad.  An iPad is, I dunno, $500.  A lot of money but not a lot of money.  I think most people want to work to the point where they can buy an iPad, or not buy an iPad, based on their own whims and desires, not based on budget.  They don't want to have to think about money.  They may not want an iPad, but if they did, they could just go buy it. 

MMM Is more about "working" to convince yourself you don't want that iPad.  Which maybe they do, or maybe they already don't.  But to tell someone, focus on not wanting something so that you don't have to buy it, so you don't have to earn the money to buy it, well that sounds like work. 

It's a lot easier to just work hard, and make enough money to buy it or not buy it, and not have to think about money.

I think that's most people's real goal, to have enough money that they don't have to think about it.  And MMM is sorta the opposite of that, it's worrying about money, all the time, even when you maybe don't have to.  And that's a lot like work.  And they already work, so now they have to work to work some more to someday not work, but still think a lot about money. 


The other thing I think, and I made a thread about this, is a lot of people want to do things that cost money.  They want to retire some day and travel, or buy a motorcycle or RV, or whatever.  And so if you retire early, especially real early, all the sudden you have a whole lot more years to fill.  So instead of retiring at 65 and having, hopefully, 5-10 good years to travel, you retire at 40 and have 30-35 years to travel?  That requires a lot more capital.  And a MMM person would say "well, instead of taking fancy trips to Paris, why not take simpler trips camping, or a bus trip to Branson or something."  So now it's "retire early and not do what you wanted to do in the first place?"  And that's where a lot of people say, well, what the fuck is the point?

[bacchi]

MMM Is more about "working" to convince yourself you don't want that iPad.  Which maybe they do, or maybe they already don't.  But to tell someone, focus on not wanting something so that you don't have to buy it, so you don't have to earn the money to buy it, well that sounds like work. 

True, there is some work involved to break oneself from the mindset of buy-shit=more-happy but there's also work in being able to hike the PCT or even to do a 8m day-hike nearby. That doesn't mean that either goal isn't worthwhile just because, ya know, it's "work." A lot of people want more than simply being couch potatoes ordering from HSN.

And MMM is sorta the opposite of that, it's worrying about money, all the time, even when you maybe don't have to. 

No, I don't think that's the point. Moving beyond worrying about money is the next step.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/05/29/give-yourself-the-gift-of-not-worrying-about-money/

[Chris22]

MMM Is more about "working" to convince yourself you don't want that iPad.  Which maybe they do, or maybe they already don't.  But to tell someone, focus on not wanting something so that you don't have to buy it, so you don't have to earn the money to buy it, well that sounds like work. 

True, there is some work involved to break oneself from the mindset of buy-shit=more-happy but there's also work in being able to hike the PCT or even to do a 8m day-hike nearby. That doesn't mean that either goal isn't worthwhile just because, ya know, it's "work." A lot of people want more than simply being couch potatoes ordering from HSN.

Uh, yeah, but if the options are "go to work at a job I don't hate and buy stuff I might want" and "Be at home and ride a bike a lot and try not to want an iPad" unless you're a die-hard bike riding fan, #2 kinda sucks.

And MMM is sorta the opposite of that, it's worrying about money, all the time, even when you maybe don't have to. 

No, I don't think that's the point. Moving beyond worrying about money is the next step.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/05/29/give-yourself-the-gift-of-not-worrying-about-money/

An MMM person might not be worried about money in the sense that they aren't laying awake at night wondering how to pay bills or if an emergency pops up, but they're still hyper-sensitive about costs of stuff, how do I minimize this bill, play credit card games to do that, etc, that's still "worrying about" money in the sense that you have to manage it all.

[EllieStan]

You're right about the idea of being happy with less. But even this mentality has its extremes. Some people are so minimalists they aspire to live in a tiny house. I could never do that. Having enough space and comfort is also part of my idea of happiness (but I don't need a McMansion to be satisfied). The same can be said about retiring early. Sure you could work less and retire at 35 to achieve other goals, but what if some of your goals are linked to your career? What if your goals and projects do not require you to retire early from a job you love, feel useful doing, and contributes to your feeling of accomplishment?

It's indeed more of a realization that you don't need to indulge into heavy consumerism to be happy, but only you can define what makes you happy. It's being able to prioritize and to understand your own values. MMM spends money on stuff or experiences I wouldn't spend money on. I spend in other areas that might not be important to him, but are important to me/make me happy. People who criticize need to understand it's not a dogma. If anything, it's a guideline towards a lifestyle that is designed to make your life easier in the long run. It's easier to be debt-free. It's easier to have a financial security and not worry about money. It's easier to have options. Changing one's lifestyle and spending habits to embrace frugality is the tough part, but few people are willing to do that.

To be honest, if it weren't for the decade I just spent living like a poor student (because I was one), I probably would have jumped straight into the consumerist bandwagon right out of college. After 10 years in university, my spending habits are not a mean of survival anymore: they've become a lifestyle I'm comfortable in. I only have to think about my 23-year-old self to understand why this lifestyle (I'm not even talking about extremes, just a healthy frugality/savings habit) is not obvious for everybody.

[bacchi]

Uh, yeah, but if the options are "go to work at a job I don't hate and buy stuff I might want" and "Be at home and ride a bike a lot and try not to want an iPad" unless you're a die-hard bike riding fan, #2 kinda sucks.

Sure. What if it's "go to work at a job I hate and buy stuff I don't really want" vs. "Be at home and ride a bike a lot whenever I want" because biking is rad and I like sleeping in?

Like the most extreme people here (and on ERE), you're not recognizing that people value different things. I have an Audi but I'm fine with a flip-phone. I'm ok with that because, yeah, I still enjoy it [the Audi] years after buying it regardless of those who claim that it gets boring blah blah status symbol blah blah..

[Cassie]

I agree that MM goes overboard in order to be entertaining & to get people to read his blog. If it was boring who would want to read it?  this forum runs the gamut between being very frugal & being very spendy. I agree with others that it involves spending your $ on things you value just not everything.  Right now since we semi-retired we are spending more $ on vacations then ever. Why? Because we want to have these experiences while we both are healthy. Life is short. Most people can afford the things they value-they just can't afford everything.

[arebelspy]

And MMM is sorta the opposite of that, it's worrying about money, all the time, even when you maybe don't have to. 

No, I don't think that's the point. Moving beyond worrying about money is the next step.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/05/29/give-yourself-the-gift-of-not-worrying-about-money/

An MMM person might not be worried about money in the sense that they aren't laying awake at night wondering how to pay bills or if an emergency pops up, but they're still hyper-sensitive about costs of stuff, how do I minimize this bill, play credit card games to do that, etc, that's still "worrying about" money in the sense that you have to manage it all.

Nope. You get past that to not worrying at all.

[Jeremy]

And MMM is sorta the opposite of that, it's worrying about money, all the time, even when you maybe don't have to. 

No, I don't think that's the point. Moving beyond worrying about money is the next step.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/05/29/give-yourself-the-gift-of-not-worrying-about-money/

An MMM person might not be worried about money in the sense that they aren't laying awake at night wondering how to pay bills or if an emergency pops up, but they're still hyper-sensitive about costs of stuff, how do I minimize this bill, play credit card games to do that, etc, that's still "worrying about" money in the sense that you have to manage it all.

Nope. You get past that to not worrying at all.

What arebelspy said

Seriously, zero concern about money.  We do what we want when we want, buy whatever we want, and there is enough money to do all of that and then some

That is why it is called Enough

[FFA]

I reckon adverse reactions are understandable since western societies are bombarded by consumer/materialist pressures everywhere. Not to mention the ever powerful financial services industry. The MMM approach will confront a lot of people as it goes against conventional wisdom, tightly held beliefs/assumptions, and the ever present advertising thrust upon us.

Perhaps the interesting thing is why such strong adverse reactions? If it's not useful/relevant, people can easily choose to ignore it.

[Fastfwd]

I think the adverse reactions are mostly jealousy. Either that people don't have the income to accomplish this or had the income but feel too deep in debt or maybe even that they are not willing to make the effort to change their habits to accomplish this.

Anyone can run a marathon but few people are willing to do the training. The suffering is not worth the accomplishment for them.

My wife does not need a lot of money to live but she does like some expensive things. She just does not want to think about it too much. She's perfectly fine planning to work until normal age retirement and maybe not getting the brand new luxury car but spending on the exotic vacations. It works for her.

[forummm]

People have adverse reactions for many different reasons. For some it's that they simply don't believe it's possible to live on any dollar amount much lower than whatever it is they are spending. And then when presented with a seemingly impossible number like $25k (deceptively low due to no rent or mortgage) or even Jakob's $7k they have an immediate transition to full disbelief and shut down listening. Some think that it takes "too much sacrifice". Or that you "can't enjoy things now". For some it's the somewhat in-your-face challenging tone, intentionally ridiculing everything they hold dear (like SUVs and lattes and shopping). For some it's the cursing. For some it's the strident views that you should only bicycle or walk everywhere with no exceptions.

If I weren't already very frugal, I don't know how I would have reacted to the ERE and MMM messages. They might have seemed like crackpots. People lying on the Internet in order to sell you something or get ad revenue or to stroke their egos. Their spending rates are very low. Biking everywhere in particular is simply not practical and is very dangerous in certain parts of the country (like where I live). And some people don't want to eat the same food every day of the year (Jakob). And some people would refuse to live in an RV (Jakob). Etc.

[Mrs.LC]

I think there are two driving forces to the adversity. First people are just not happy with their lives so they buy toys thinking that will solve their problems or at least give them a temporary escape from them. Secondly people have no clue where their money goes and how much they flitter out without even realizing it. They don't understand or sometimes care that going out to eat every night adds up to big spending.

You can live a frugal life while enjoying large ticket items and big vacations while saving for early retirement. Mr. LC and I are examples of that. We have taken multiple vacations every year for the last 15 years, own a nice but modest home, a 2013 Prius and a 2014 Honda Goldwing. We retired 18 months ago and are thriving. There are people that think we lost our jobs and are struggling and those that think we sit in a chair all day doing nothing. We don't care to waste our time worrying about what others think as it just sucks the life out of you. Instead we prefer to use our time sharing and teaching those that care to learn.