I have no money, am in debt a year's salary, and will retire early

[FrugalFairy]

Hello! Very inspired by MMM. Want to share my thought process with others who little to no money and feel discouraged. 
I have negative money.  I owe a whole year's salary.
It doesn't matter if you have no money now, as long as you are are taking those daily steps that add up to years that add up FIRE. 
I got into deep cc dept after spending years unable to find a job that pays over 20k a year.  I currently make 20k and haven't really been acrueing more debt, it is just hanging over my head from years of making around 15 or 16k.  Yes, pathetic I know.  I am 30 years old, have a salary of 20k, and AM FED UP! I thought about declaring bankruptcy, but that would disrupt my plans to buy a house in a few years and get it paid off quickly and not have to rent ( I am going back to school and in two years will have a graduate degree and a job in a tech field, probably making 50k/year.
Since I currently live on my meager salary and feel pretty much fine about it except for my ability to pay my debt and save money (which really does depress me), when I start making the new salary my degree will command, I will be able to save 50% + and retire earlier than a normal person who has made that salary the whole time but never saved more than 10%.
So, I say everything happens for a reason.  And for those who are discouraged, your mistakes, and your adversities, have maybe led you to discover this website and TAKE THE ADVICE HERE SERIOUSLY AND FOLLOW IT! Because if you didn't NEED to, you might find the information interesting, implement a few things, but my experience has made me 100% committed to starting a new career and the saving enough to quit if I want while I am still relatively young!

[r3dt4rget]

Hello! Very inspired by MMM. Want to share my thought process with others who little to no money and feel discouraged. 
I have negative money.  I owe a whole year's salary.
It doesn't matter if you have no money now, as long as you are are taking those daily steps that add up to years that add up FIRE. 
I got into deep cc dept after spending years unable to find a job that pays over 20k a year.  I currently make 20k and haven't really been acrueing more debt, it is just hanging over my head from years of making around 15 or 16k.  Yes, pathetic I know.  I am 30 years old, have a salary of 20k, and AM FED UP! I thought about declaring bankruptcy, but that would disrupt my plans to buy a house in a few years and get it paid off quickly and not have to rent ( I am going back to school and in two years will have a graduate degree and a job in a tech field, probably making 50k/year.
Since I currently live on my meager salary and feel pretty much fine about it except for my ability to pay my debt and save money (which really does depress me), when I start making the new salary my degree will command, I will be able to save 50% + and retire earlier than a normal person who has made that salary the whole time but never saved more than 10%.
So, I say everything happens for a reason.  And for those who are discouraged, your mistakes, and your adversities, have maybe led you to discover this website and TAKE THE ADVICE HERE SERIOUSLY AND FOLLOW IT! Because if you didn't NEED to, you might find the information interesting, implement a few things, but my experience has made me 100% committed to starting a new career and the saving enough to quit if I want while I am still relatively young!

Where do you live that a graduate degree only pays $50k? You can make that here by working in a retail store for a few years and becoming an assistant manager.

[forummm]

Welcome to the forum! Your determination is very admirable. I'm glad to see that you're ready to improve your future. You can do it! :)

[FrugalFairy]

I live in the midwest.  Rent/buying homes are cheap here but salaries are often lower than other cities. Anyway, that is a conservative estimate at a starting salary! ;)  Basically what I am sure I will be able to make after investing my time in going back to school. Honestly, will be a huge improvement and I will feel wealthy making that much.

and thank you forummm I much appreciate the words of encouragement!  Sick of not living up to my potential & need a new attitude- If there's a will there's a way, and if there's a way, dammit I will!

[hunniebun]

Good for you!  Decide. Commit. Succeed. :) 

[mozar]

I will feel wealthy making that much

The more you expect the more you can make.

[The_path_less_taken]

Congrats on the upcoming degree.

Debt can be melted. You're already on your way. Kudos.

[Taswegian]

Absolutely agree with the kudos- if MMM teaches us nothing else, its that you can actually choose whether to wallow in debt and misery or whether to do something about it. Go get 'em :)

[Bambam100]

Good for you!  I like that fighting spirit.

I see that you've already kiboshed the tool of bankruptcy.  I think you should reconsider a chapter 7, especially at your low salary, and especially if you've committed to not using credit cards again.  The bankruptcy stays on your credit report for 10 years, but many mortgage lenders will consider you after 4 years if you've rebuilt your credit.  It will give you a clean slate, and will save you thousands of dollars over the long run.  The credit card debt you've got now is not going to look that great to a lender going forward even if you knuckle down and pay it off. 

Nobody here will support this view.  This is the suffering builds character crowd, and rightly so since that's the essence of Mustachianism.  But I disagree with needless suffering.  I don't think you need to be taught a lesson in the same way that someone with twice your income who shopped til they dropped or took cruises does.  This is not an easy way out, or getting stuff for free, or any of that.  Bankruptcy is a painful public face punch and does not allow the denial that the privacy of payment arrangements with lenders affords. But it will save you a ton of money in the long run. 

I know this first hand.  I did the "must learn from suffering pain" strategy with credit card debt many times but the lessons never took.  Then 4 years ago, I did a chapter 7. I had an awesome lawyer who had no sympathy for credit card companies.  I don't begrudge her a single penny of her fee.  I never regretted it.  Check out NOLO.com, search chapter 7. 

2 years ago, I read and started practicing the stuff in the book Your Money or Your Life, then found this blog about 6 months ago via a link in a NYTimes article (NYT subscription became an expense that did not add value to my life shortly after that, so good thing I found that link, right?).  Things are way better for me now. It's really about respecting your money enough to keep it rather than to spend it.

I support and applaud your decision and determination. Carry on, and hang on to your wallet!

[Mr Dumpster Stache]

Looks like somebody shot themselves in the face with the optimism gun!

[partgypsy]

I would think about what BamBam said. For most people, declaring bankruptcy is not an answer, because behavioral, spending patterns were behind the bankruptcy which haven't changed.
You may be in a situation where it is worth declaring. Everyone has different opinions on this. My father refused to declare bankruptcy due to a business failure, so he lost his home, and continues to work in his 80's slowly paying off debts. For him he sees it as a moral failure (to declare bankruptcy).
I learned a few years ago that my younger brother declared bankruptcy. Which at that time shocked me, because I've always seen him as the most responsible person (financially and ethically). There was one point he was forced into a visitation/custody battle with the mother of his children, and between the attorney court bills in combination of him having to take time off work due to it, he was so behind he could not catch up. Again, debts around what his yearly take home income was. He was also experiencing heart symptoms due to stress (and at that point was a single father of 2 kids with the mother paying no child support). So while I have always been anti bankruptcy as a rule, seeing what he went through and the physical toll, I have a more nuanced view. 
But it only works if you change your life to prevent it happening again. 

[RoadLessTravelled]

Do you owe the money to the credit card company?  Or have you cut up your credit card and got a bank loan to pay off the cedit card company and reduce the interest you need to pay on the debt?

[emily2244]

During grad school my husband and I accrued around 25,000 in debt. After finishing we moved to NYC. In our first year we paid off 10,000 of the debt and our combined income was 25,000 that year. (We've never had financial help from family.) The next year our income was a bit more, and we finished paying off the debt. Our income has gone up, but is still very low by NYC standards. We have bought a house and have rental income and have retirement savings. I'm not sure that we'll be able to retire very early, but certain earlier than average. It can be done on a low income in an expensive city.

[Bambam100]

Do you owe the money to the credit card company?  Or have you cut up your credit card and got a bank loan to pay off the cedit card company and reduce the interest you need to pay on the debt?

Either way, $20,000 is such a low salary.  This is exactly the situation that Ch 7 was created for.  I really respect people who pay off high debt on low salaries, but this is not the only way to get back on solid financial footing.  Over time, Ch 7 is less costly.

[FrugalFairy]

Thanks so much to everyone for the encouragement!! It really helps! Bambam and PartGypsy, I am going to think more about Chapter 7.  I appreciate the information.  I am hesitant to do so because my fico score is around 730 so I don't know if preserving/improving this score by paying off my debt may be better in the long run.  I also have 2/3 paid off a 4 year old car.  So if I was to sell it, I would be able to use the few thousand I would get from it plus the monthly payments combined with insurance money I pay (totaling to 400/ month) to make a big dent in the debt in even the next year.  Seems logical, I am just struggling with it because a lot of people tell me it's not safe to ride a bike everywhere/take public transit as I am a female.  And it seems like I have paid it off 2/3, if I can just keep paying another 2 years I  will have it paid off and an drive it payment free and hopefully pay off the debt in the first year after landing the decent job I am going for.  Been going back and forth in my head about this for about 6 months.  So I don't know, much to think about! Thanks guys, you are awesome for sharing your time and advise!

Going to try to stay optomistic. The spirit of my original post was to hopefully encourage others, and also definitely myself, with the idea that starting from less than nothing is still better than having a good income but spending it all.  Because the knowledge and drive we all have here will make us get to where we are trying to be financially, by making the smart choices everyday from this day forward, regardless of where we are now.  I have made my fair share of ignorant financial mistakes, but nothing that can't be undone.

Oh before I replied I see more posts.  Emily that is inspiring!! Thanks for sharing!  It is awesome that you and your husband are on the same page and can combine forces. Road I currently owe to cc company. Getting a bank loan is another thing I am considering.

[Bambam100]

FrugalFairy, that great score will definitely take a hit in bankruptcy.  I would see where the biggest savings lie.  Once the debt is gone, the money you're sending the credit card is freed up to work for you.  You can start investing right away, and who knows in a couple years you may be in better shape than if you'd preserved the score now.  You can rebuild your credit score pretty quickly.

Ultimately, you're the only one who knows what's best for you.

[Cougar]

 Congrats !

 It may seem like youre in a big hole now, but coming to this mindset at 30; you'll be ahead of probably all but 5% by 40 even if you're only making an average salary.

 I started this about a year ago and I often think if I could have somehow started 5 years ago; I'd be fire now; but it'll come and the dissapointments of the daily grind today will be everyone else's problem soon enough because I'm not like them anymore.

[Mr Dorothy Dollar]

Your finances reflect who you are. I think you are a mess. Having the MMM mindset is fine and all that, but in real world terms you have a bunch of cleaning up to do with few tools at your disposal. Don't be naive, overall you will need to do major fixes not just day-to-day fixes. You are past the point of riding your bike to retirement.

Given your background, I don't think I would recommend a traditional college, maybe trades school. School takes a good deal of hard work, mental ability, and gumption which based on your employment seems to be lacking. No offense, I just do not think you have the personal skills that would do well in school.

However, if you plan on going to school DO IT.
- Don't take out student loans. You make so little that undischargable debt from school loans could really wreck your life forever if you fail/drop out or do not find a good job.
- There will most likely only be one way to pay for schooling Credit. Use your good credit score while you got it.
- Congrats you got more debt and have an education.
- Ditch/prolong debt payment for the unsecured debt (many ways to do this. If I have to spell them out do not go to school.)

If you are really not going to go to school (which I suspect and hope) Bankruptcy yesterday is the way to go.
You need a better job and most likely a second job. I would suggest looking at your resume. Tell the people how you embody a quality don't tell them you posses it. "People person" should not appear on the resume.
Economies of scale could help if you got a gf/bf to pay a portion. With your wages you should really be living in a slum house with 5 other people. Having your own space is not a luxury you can afford. Your house idea in a few years is a pipe dream at this point and you should recognize it. There is far too much work to be done before a house should even be considered. 
You could live with Mom and Dad. If there ever was a person that should admit that life has for the most part beaten him/her it is you. Go back to Mom and Dad to get back on your feet for round 2 of life.

[Cougar]

Given your background, I don't think I would recommend a traditional college, maybe trades school. School takes a good deal of hard work, mental ability, and gumption which based on your employment seems to be lacking. No offense, I just do not think you have the personal skills that would do well in school.

following up on this.

if you would go to a trade school, you could be a welder and most likely earning 6 figures in a year. do that for 10 years, save 50% or more; you're retired at 40 and possibly a millionaire as we're likely closer to a recession than continuing the recovery for another 3 years at this point; so you could be getting out of school and into a well paying trade job with the stock market at a 25-50% sell off and ride the next recovery to millionaire status.

you're in a good spot.

[patrickza]

I appreciate your determination. You're in a spot that needs to be tackled from both income and expenses. Could you pick up a side gig? Are there ways to cut more costs?

[RoadLessTravelled]

"I currently owe to cc company. Getting a bank loan is another thing I am considering."

I think that says far more than you realize it says.

[FrugalFairy]

Thank you all for the replies! Cougar that was kind of my whole reason for making this post, I think you totally get what my point is :) Congratulations on you being a year in! Time really flies by so fast. I think it is a big difference knowing you can retire in 10 years or something rather than seeing your whole life ahead of you working.  Kind of changes my perspective on everything!
Mr Dorothy thank you for the feedback.  I concur major fixes are needed! Obviously just riding my bike is not going to fix my life or anything.  However with the percentage of my income I spend on transportation, it actually would make a huge difference in my finances.  Struggling with if I should go carless or not! dusted it off after not riding it for 10 years yesterday, filled up the tires, rode it to the grocery, and today used it for a 7 mile errand, too.  Felt better than I expected! 
I don't think my income history precludes me from going back to school. Actually, it is the reason for me to do so.  I am confident in my ability to excel academically in the program that I chose, and also confident that it will provide me with a wealth of job opportunities. I think you may have gotten the wrong picture of me because of my income/debt. But people are always evolving.  Maybe I am a late bloomer.  If there was a reset button and you could hop back 10 years I certainly would. ;)
I don't live by myself.  I agree living by yourself is wasteful. Also not taking out any student loans. Agree with you on that. 
One thing though- Life has not beaten me!  I have a good life with people I love in it.  I don't have problems because of money. My utilities are cut on always. I have food even though somehow my income is not low enough to get any food stamps.  I like my apartment.  The only bad thing is, I just still have to work, but feel Cougar's first comment is on point.  I will get there, just may be slower than someone starting out at 18 or something.
RoadLessTravelled- I was saying that getting a bank loan with a lower interest rate to pay off ccs is something I would consider.  Not to wrack up more debt.  The reason I have not yet is that is in the back of my mind if I should abandon the credit card debt.  A few people on here have said to.  However at this point, I am leaning towards landing a higher paying job and paying it off.  Weighing my options, which I much appreciate hearing everyone's input on.
patrickza- Sometimes pick up side gigs. Definitely ways to cut costs, which is what I am focusing on now! Making sure I have trimmed everything!  Excellent responses guys thanks for the Love!

[RoadLessTravelled]

"RoadLessTravelled- I was saying that getting a bank loan with a lower interest rate to pay off ccs is something I would consider.  Not to wrack up more debt.  The reason I have not yet is that is in the back of my mind if I should abandon the credit card debt.  A few people on here have said to."

I know some have suggested chapter 7 and bankruptcy.  Here is how I personally view that.  There are some circumstances under which a person may have no option but to declare bankruptcy.  However, your situation is not one of those.  You have a job, you have income, you have incurred debt and you have a responsibility to pay that debt.  Only when there are NO options left but bankruptcy would I choose to go that road.

A man pays his debts.  Someone who does not pay his debts is not a man.  (The same of course applies to a woman.)  That is why I would not go down that road unless there was no other choice.  Having to admit to myself that I was not a man who pays his debts would be very difficult to accept.

Some people may have lower eithical standards or some other kind of definition of honourable,  I can't speak for them.  But if I got myself into debt then I would have to get myself out of debt, not rely on some legallity that allows me to avoid it.

My Father told me when I was a young boy, that a man's word is his bond.  A man who breaks his word is a man without honour and a man without honour is no longer a man.  I remember him telling me that very clearly and the lesson he was teaching me.  That may be considered old fashioned these days but you know what, it's still true.

So my advice FrugalFairy is man up and do what is right, not what you can legally get away with.  Pay your debts.  Then continue on the road to FIRE.  There are no shortcuts to being a man.

[dd36]

"A man pays his debts.  Someone who does not pay his debts is not a man.  (The same of course applies to a woman.)  That is why I would not go down that road unless there was no other choice.  Having to admit to myself that I was not a man who pays his debts would be very difficult to accept."

That's too general of a principle.  A bank would not pay its debts if it were in a similar situation.  It very much so depends on to whom the debt is owed.  If it is to a TBTF bank, you should quickly brush aside moral qualms.  If it is family or a community bank, then it makes sense.

I saw this argument a lot during the foreclosure crisis.  If roles were reversed and the bank was upside down on a property, it would walk away without thinking twice about morality.  It's a financial decision plain and simple.

[RoadLessTravelled]

That dog won't hunt dd36.

First, a bank is not a man.  Second, what a bank or another person would do is no excuse for what someone else does. 

Unless the OP can tell us just how he was unable to avoid getting into debt and is unable to pay his debts, then I think the principle as you call it, stands.

Trying to compare a bank to a person and trying to suggest it is a financial decision plain and simple, won't wash with me.  I've been broke and in debt and struggled to get back out of debt but I've never tried to use situational ethics to walk away from a debt by saying, 'well a bank would do the same to me.'  What the bank would do to me is no measure of me.  What I would do is the measure of me.

[sunshine]

Great job realizing you need to change things!  Many people much older till haven't grasped that concept!!! You have a plan of action to change things so enjoy the ride! I don't know where you are in the Midwest but here weather gets rid of the idea of biking year round. It also does not take a six figure salary to get going down the MMM path. I can't wait to hear how you kick butt!!!!

[CommonCents]

Nobody here will support this view.  This is the suffering builds character crowd, and rightly so since that's the essence of Mustachianism.  But I disagree with needless suffering.  I don't think you need to be taught a lesson in the same way that someone with twice your income who shopped til they dropped or took cruises does.  This is not an easy way out, or getting stuff for free, or any of that.  Bankruptcy is a painful public face punch and does not allow the denial that the privacy of payment arrangements with lenders affords. But it will save you a ton of money in the long run. 

I know this first hand.  I did the "must learn from suffering pain" strategy with credit card debt many times but the lessons never took.  Then 4 years ago, I did a chapter 7. I had an awesome lawyer who had no sympathy for credit card companies.  I don't begrudge her a single penny of her fee.  I never regretted it.  Check out NOLO.com, search chapter 7. 

It has nothing to do with suffering or learning from pain.

Avoiding bankruptcy when you possibly can* has to do with the ethics of holding to your word to repay what you said you'd repay.

Or from a Kantian perspective: If everyone did this - agree to pay and then walk away from their word, we'd never trust people again and be able to borrow money.  The cost of borrowing money already regrettably includes the cost of supporting the debts of those who willingly choose to walk away from their commitments.

*This does mean there are circumstances - such as incredibly high medical bills - where I see bankruptcy as an appropriate choice, after trying diligently to work with the hospital and doctors etc has failed.

[Bob W]

You could always sell final expense life insurance,  take home 125k per year and be FIRE in 5 years. No degree required.

[Mr Dorothy Dollar]

Nobody here will support this view.  This is the suffering builds character crowd, and rightly so since that's the essence of Mustachianism.  But I disagree with needless suffering.  I don't think you need to be taught a lesson in the same way that someone with twice your income who shopped til they dropped or took cruises does.  This is not an easy way out, or getting stuff for free, or any of that.  Bankruptcy is a painful public face punch and does not allow the denial that the privacy of payment arrangements with lenders affords. But it will save you a ton of money in the long run. 

I know this first hand.  I did the "must learn from suffering pain" strategy with credit card debt many times but the lessons never took.  Then 4 years ago, I did a chapter 7. I had an awesome lawyer who had no sympathy for credit card companies.  I don't begrudge her a single penny of her fee.  I never regretted it.  Check out NOLO.com, search chapter 7. 

It has nothing to do with suffering or learning from pain.

Avoiding bankruptcy when you possibly can* has to do with the ethics of holding to your word to repay what you said you'd repay.

Or from a Kantian perspective: If everyone did this - agree to pay and then walk away from their word, we'd never trust people again and be able to borrow money.  The cost of borrowing money already regrettably includes the cost of supporting the debts of those who willingly choose to walk away from their commitments.

*This does mean there are circumstances - such as incredibly high medical bills - where I see bankruptcy as an appropriate choice, after trying diligently to work with the hospital and doctors etc has failed.

When only one party is expected to have ethics it is not a fair situation. Walking away from debt is not a moral dilemma when the bond is purely a financial one. YOLO walk away and get on with life.

[J Boogie]

The bankruptcy issue poses a very interesting ethical question - Was it wrong to refuse to pay those you owed 150 years ago, and is it wrong to refuse to pay those you owe now?

My opinion is yes to the first and no to the second.

Lending was once based on trust and reputation, not hard numbers.  You were letting the bank down if you defaulted.

Banks now hedge their losses by charging higher interest rates, requiring mortgage insurance, flat out refusing those who are obviously over their heads (not so great at this one a decade ago), etc.  Delinquency isn't just accounted for in their business model, it's a very profitable part of their business model.

For all their trust-centric advertising, banks are ready and equipped to deal with default.  Credit card lenders even much more so.  Think they don't love having people carry balances?  Obviously they're not making anything off of us.


However, if you run a business, and a supplier or other company (especially if its not a corporation) you do business with extends you credit, then I believe in paying them back even after bankruptcy if you do need to declare it.  Those business relationships really are about trust - you're shaking the hand of someone who really will be negatively affected by your delinquency.

Just my two cents though.  I think you gotta differentiate between those who profit off delinquency and those who extend credit out of good faith.  Community banks would apply here as well.

[Cathy]

I don't think there is a moral obligation to avoid benefiting from bankruptcy law. However, there are a lot of misunderstandings about bankruptcy law among the general populace. After studying the statute, you might discover it's not actually as a favourable as you imagined. On the other hand, you might find it to be very favourable for your circumstances. In either case, you will want to learn the law about bankruptcy before making any decisions in that regard. It's not something you can decide based on popular culture depictions of bankruptcy or wishy-washy statements about ethics.

[J Boogie]

It's not something you can decide based on popular culture depictions of bankruptcy or wishy-washy statements about ethics.

Thanks for the reminder to understand all the effects of declaring bankruptcy.  However, I don't think it's something you can decide purely based on how favorable the outcome would be either.  The world would be an uglier place if we all acted in our own self interest all the time.  It's good to consider how our actions will affect others.

[CommonCents]

Nobody here will support this view.  This is the suffering builds character crowd, and rightly so since that's the essence of Mustachianism.  But I disagree with needless suffering.  I don't think you need to be taught a lesson in the same way that someone with twice your income who shopped til they dropped or took cruises does.  This is not an easy way out, or getting stuff for free, or any of that.  Bankruptcy is a painful public face punch and does not allow the denial that the privacy of payment arrangements with lenders affords. But it will save you a ton of money in the long run. 

I know this first hand.  I did the "must learn from suffering pain" strategy with credit card debt many times but the lessons never took.  Then 4 years ago, I did a chapter 7. I had an awesome lawyer who had no sympathy for credit card companies.  I don't begrudge her a single penny of her fee.  I never regretted it.  Check out NOLO.com, search chapter 7. 

It has nothing to do with suffering or learning from pain.

Avoiding bankruptcy when you possibly can* has to do with the ethics of holding to your word to repay what you said you'd repay.

Or from a Kantian perspective: If everyone did this - agree to pay and then walk away from their word, we'd never trust people again and be able to borrow money.  The cost of borrowing money already regrettably includes the cost of supporting the debts of those who willingly choose to walk away from their commitments.

*This does mean there are circumstances - such as incredibly high medical bills - where I see bankruptcy as an appropriate choice, after trying diligently to work with the hospital and doctors etc has failed.

When only one party is expected to have ethics it is not a fair situation. Walking away from debt is not a moral dilemma when the bond is purely a financial one. YOLO walk away and get on with life.

I disagree.

Sticking to your principals regardless of what others do is the very heart of ethics.  In the Nazi era, a lot of people gave the excuse that they "had" to act as they did because their superiors or the public forced them to do so.  Yet, if more people spoke up, maybe 6 million wouldn't have died.  Arguing that it's not "fair" misses the point entirely.  At some point, you decide to do what's right because it's right, regardless of whether other people are acting according to a moral code.

(And I'm unclear how the company who loaned money is acting unethically anyways.  They gave the money as they agreed to do.  Now it's the loaner's responsibility - legally and morally to back it back.)

And yes Cathy, I've studied bankruptcy law (in addition to ethics).  I agree it's now not as generous as in the past and varies greatly by state (Texas and Florida protect the entire value of your house...even if it's $2 million).  But whether or not the law permits you to take an action, doesn't mean it's always the right thing to do.  Clearly we greatly differ on this point.  I try very hard not make promises to anyone that I can't keep, and to keep those I make. 

It's not something you can decide based on popular culture depictions of bankruptcy or wishy-washy statements about ethics.

Thanks for the reminder to understand all the effects of declaring bankruptcy.  However, I don't think it's something you can decide purely based on how favorable the outcome would be either.  The world would be an uglier place if we all acted in our own self interest all the time.  It's good to consider how our actions will affect others.

+1
This is what I was trying to explain with my story regarding Kantian ethics.

[AliInKY]

"RoadLessTravelled- I was saying that getting a bank loan with a lower interest rate to pay off ccs is something I would consider.  Not to wrack up more debt.  The reason I have not yet is that is in the back of my mind if I should abandon the credit card debt.  A few people on here have said to."

I know some have suggested chapter 7 and bankruptcy.  Here is how I personally view that.  There are some circumstances under which a person may have no option but to declare bankruptcy.  However, your situation is not one of those.  You have a job, you have income, you have incurred debt and you have a responsibility to pay that debt.  Only when there are NO options left but bankruptcy would I choose to go that road.

A man pays his debts.  Someone who does not pay his debts is not a man.  (The same of course applies to a woman.)  That is why I would not go down that road unless there was no other choice.  Having to admit to myself that I was not a man who pays his debts would be very difficult to accept.

Some people may have lower eithical standards or some other kind of definition of honourable,  I can't speak for them.  But if I got myself into debt then I would have to get myself out of debt, not rely on some legallity that allows me to avoid it.

My Father told me when I was a young boy, that a man's word is his bond.  A man who breaks his word is a man without honour and a man without honour is no longer a man.  I remember him telling me that very clearly and the lesson he was teaching me.  That may be considered old fashioned these days but you know what, it's still true.

So my advice FrugalFairy is man up and do what is right, not what you can legally get away with.  Pay your debts.  Then continue on the road to FIRE.  There are no shortcuts to being a man.

Bingo.  +1