Author Topic: I hate Christmas  (Read 21164 times)

Dollar Slice

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #100 on: December 26, 2017, 02:49:21 PM »
Santa Claus is a falsehood.

Thanks for the tip. I've had suspicions along these lines for a long time.

Daley

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #101 on: December 26, 2017, 02:56:36 PM »
It's worse than that with most Christians as I'm viewed as a Judaizer, and it's usually spit out as an epithet from the Armenian camp. "Filthy legalistic salvation-through-works monster, how dare you even read Torah and mention sin!" Even got a bit of that in this thread. Never mind that I make no bones about the way being faith-based and a salvation only by His grace situation, that there are no works we can do to save ourselves, though I cannot ignore the issue of free-will and its interplay with things and the need for walking in the faith daily. But then, I get in trouble with decent guys like Jim555 here who's a hard-line Calvinist and tries to be a staunch defender of the faith, because somehow the belief in free-will also makes me a works-based legalistic heretic despite the fact that I readily admit that the way is a faith-based and a salvation only by His grace situation, and that there are no works we can do to save ourselves. That said, I suspect if the two of us just spent an hour face-to-face about how I view free-will as being involved in the bigger picture, we would both grow in understanding, encounter a lot more common ground, and find far less difference in our understanding than the limits of the English vocabulary cause... but that's nothing more than optimistic conjecture at this point.
Your position that free will synergisticly works with grace logically means that merit enters into the process of justification.  It means man can bring something to the table.  But that is impossible.  Sinners bring nothing, even their best efforts are a stench to a Holy God that hates all unrighteousness.  Anyone who gets the robes of pure righteousness gets them despite what they have done, not because they have done some meritorious acts.

See? This is why I think we need a face-to-face, because you're assuming things and reading points into my statements that I am clearly not saying because you're lumping me in with the extremist Armenian position... clearly the nuance of written language and these forums are just not working for us. I find myself mostly in agreement with you, and make points where I see that there should be no disagreement between us, but then you pull out the whole "but you dare to speak of the filthy word FREE-WIIILLLLL SO YOU MUST BE A HERITIC ARGLE-BARGLE!!!11" stuff.

Sorry for the exaggeration, but it really comes across like that sometimes.

Dude. Please. Seriously. Stop trying to split hairs and cause divisions where they're not needed. We're supposed to have common ground here. Be zealous for the truth, but not so much that you inadvertently alienate your own brothers and sisters in the process because of a couple dead dudes' historically entrenched battle-lines and our language being imperfect. Are you of Messiah or are you of John Calvin? Let me state upfront, I do not assume that you're of John Calvin. I'm telling you that if we could actually talk this out, you'd probably see that too. But, man....

jim555

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #102 on: December 26, 2017, 03:02:05 PM »
You totally missed the tongue in cheek point there that the comment "He knows if you've been bad or good..." is a reference to your omnipresent God.
I noticed it.  It is an open mockery.

jim555

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #103 on: December 26, 2017, 03:05:02 PM »
Dude. Please. Seriously. Stop trying to split hairs and cause divisions where they're not needed. We're supposed to have common ground here. Be zealous for the truth, but not so much that you inadvertently alienate your own brothers and sisters in the process because of a couple dead dudes' historically entrenched battle-lines and our language being imperfect. Are you of Messiah or are you of John Calvin? Let me state upfront, I do not assume that you're of John Calvin. I'm telling you that if we could actually talk this out, you'd probably see that too. But, man....
You see it as a difference in a non-essential doctrine whereas I see it as an essential doctrine.  I don't think talking it out would solve anything.

big_owl

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #104 on: December 26, 2017, 03:20:41 PM »
All the more reason to hate Christmas   

Daley

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #105 on: December 26, 2017, 03:24:00 PM »
You see it as a difference in a non-essential doctrine whereas I see it as an essential doctrine.  I don't think talking it out would solve anything.

Okay, let's do this. You want to know why I can't dismiss free will and can't take your hard-line postition? Let's take a look at predestination doctrine first. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

You believe that the saved, the elect, are permanently saved by Divine predestination because of the permanently fallen and wretched state of man, correct?

No middle ground on this point because supposing man's capacity for any measure of free will means that we can then be saved by works - which is clearly Biblically incompatible (and you'll find that I'm in agreement on), correct?

This idea goes toward the unsaved as well, correct?

In fact, on the subject of the unsaved, predestination doctrine goes so far as to assume that even if someone appeared to be an active believer at one point and then fell away, they're considered to never have been saved at all and remained a son of Satan their entire lives, correct?

Just want to make sure we're on the same page here. You're trying to convince me and others of my heresy, after all. Are the previous statements accurate? Simple yes or no's are fine.

jim555

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #106 on: December 26, 2017, 03:44:56 PM »
Okay, let's do this. You want to know why I can't dismiss free will and can't take your hard-line postition? Let's take a look at predestination doctrine first. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

You believe that the saved, the elect, are permanently saved by Divine predestination because of the permanently fallen and wretched state of man, correct?
My position is not a hard line position, that is your opinion.
Yes.  The Fall has left man is a state of spiritual deadness.  There is no other way for any to be saved, but by God's action to pick a people for himself.  The predestination is decided from before the creation.

Quote
No middle ground on this point because supposing man's capacity for any measure of free will means that we can then be saved by works - which is clearly Biblically incompatible (and you'll find that I'm in agreement on), correct?
Man has no free will, he is in bondage to sin and totally depraved.

Quote
This idea goes toward the unsaved as well, correct?
Both the elect and reprobate are under the same Fall and corruption.

Quote
In fact, on the subject of the unsaved, predestination doctrine goes so far as to assume that even if someone appeared to be an active believer at one point and then fell away, they're considered to never have been saved at all and remained a son of Satan their entire lives, correct?
Once someone is saved they are sealed with the Holy Spirit which is forever.  It is not possible to be saved one day and lost the next.  If justification is maintained by good works then that is again a violation of works free salvation and of grace.

We can discuss in PM as this is off topic.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 04:08:41 PM by jim555 »

Jules13

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #107 on: December 26, 2017, 03:45:42 PM »
I don't hate Christmas, but I'm always glad when it's over.  We don't do a TON of gifts in our house.  We get about 3, reasonably priced ($20-40) for our kids plus stockings gifts (my fave), gifts for nephews and nieces, and draw names for names for adults (elfster is great for this).  My husband and I don't really exchange gifts.  We put a small something in each other's stocking if we do anything.  This year he got me some nice hand cream, which I admit that I LOVE, since I dry up like a prune in winter with our gas heating.

As for wrapping paper, a few years ago, I started using Christmas fabric.  This year I bought 2 more yards.  I cut it into various sizes and wrap it with ribbon, that I also re-use every year.  I almost had enough for all of our gifts.  I think if I buy one more yard (yay for after Christmas sales), I'll have enough to produce NO Christmas wrapping paper trash next year.  YAY!!!

But, I will add that I loathe New Year's Eve.  I hate the hype and the expectation to go out and have some sort of epic time, which is almost always a disappointment.  I'm terrified to get out on the roads for fear of all the drunk drivers.  I haven't gone out in years and rarely stay up until midnight anymore unless my children make me.  NYE Humbug!

wenchsenior

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #108 on: December 26, 2017, 03:56:49 PM »
You see it as a difference in a non-essential doctrine whereas I see it as an essential doctrine.  I don't think talking it out would solve anything.

Okay, let's do this. You want to know why I can't dismiss free will and can't take your hard-line postition? Let's take a look at predestination doctrine first. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

You believe that the saved, the elect, are permanently saved by Divine predestination because of the permanently fallen and wretched state of man, correct?

No middle ground on this point because supposing man's capacity for any measure of free will means that we can then be saved by works - which is clearly Biblically incompatible (and you'll find that I'm in agreement on), correct?

This idea goes toward the unsaved as well, correct?

In fact, on the subject of the unsaved, predestination doctrine goes so far as to assume that even if someone appeared to be an active believer at one point and then fell away, they're considered to never have been saved at all and remained a son of Satan their entire lives, correct?

Just want to make sure we're on the same page here. You're trying to convince me and others of my heresy, after all. Are the previous statements accurate? Simple yes or no's are fine.

Please do it in a different thread.  My eyes are glazing over.

big_owl

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #109 on: December 26, 2017, 03:59:10 PM »
You see it as a difference in a non-essential doctrine whereas I see it as an essential doctrine.  I don't think talking it out would solve anything.

Okay, let's do this. You want to know why I can't dismiss free will and can't take your hard-line postition? Let's take a look at predestination doctrine first. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

You believe that the saved, the elect, are permanently saved by Divine predestination because of the permanently fallen and wretched state of man, correct?

No middle ground on this point because supposing man's capacity for any measure of free will means that we can then be saved by works - which is clearly Biblically incompatible (and you'll find that I'm in agreement on), correct?

This idea goes toward the unsaved as well, correct?

In fact, on the subject of the unsaved, predestination doctrine goes so far as to assume that even if someone appeared to be an active believer at one point and then fell away, they're considered to never have been saved at all and remained a son of Satan their entire lives, correct?

Just want to make sure we're on the same page here. You're trying to convince me and others of my heresy, after all. Are the previous statements accurate? Simple yes or no's are fine.

Please do it in a different thread.  My eyes are glazing over.

I wonder if there's a Godwin's law equivalent to Xmas threads and Jesus?  Anyway, the 12Z was looking good for snow but the 18Z takes it about 100mi further South now.  I'll be praying to baby Jesus for the 00Z...

wenchsenior

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #110 on: December 26, 2017, 04:05:32 PM »
You see it as a difference in a non-essential doctrine whereas I see it as an essential doctrine.  I don't think talking it out would solve anything.

Okay, let's do this. You want to know why I can't dismiss free will and can't take your hard-line postition? Let's take a look at predestination doctrine first. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

You believe that the saved, the elect, are permanently saved by Divine predestination because of the permanently fallen and wretched state of man, correct?

No middle ground on this point because supposing man's capacity for any measure of free will means that we can then be saved by works - which is clearly Biblically incompatible (and you'll find that I'm in agreement on), correct?

This idea goes toward the unsaved as well, correct?

In fact, on the subject of the unsaved, predestination doctrine goes so far as to assume that even if someone appeared to be an active believer at one point and then fell away, they're considered to never have been saved at all and remained a son of Satan their entire lives, correct?

Just want to make sure we're on the same page here. You're trying to convince me and others of my heresy, after all. Are the previous statements accurate? Simple yes or no's are fine.

Please do it in a different thread.  My eyes are glazing over.

I wonder if there's a Godwin's law equivalent to Xmas threads and Jesus?  Anyway, the 12Z was looking good for snow but the 18Z takes it about 100mi further South now.  I'll be praying to baby Jesus for the 00Z...

No snow here either. No moisture at all. Only cold wind and dust.  Ugh.

Daley

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #111 on: December 26, 2017, 04:09:02 PM »
Once someone is saved they are sealed with the Holy Spirit which is forever.  It is not possible to be saved one day and lost the next.

This is the only point that matters in all your responses.

One more question. Only a simple yes or no, no commentary: Do you believe that Judas Iscariot was saved?


Never mind, I noticed that Jim's willing to take it to PM after I responded. (I missed his post editing.)



Please do it in a different thread.  My eyes are glazing over.

My apologies. Thread-drift does happen such as discussing weather-related stuff in a Christmas hate thread, but you also don't have to read every post in a thread if you don't want to.

If the mods want to fork this discussion off, I'll be happy to let them. That said, I'm almost done and won't be publicly posting much more down this rabbit trail after his next response.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 04:13:59 PM by Daley »

Khaetra

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #112 on: December 26, 2017, 06:17:20 PM »
But, I will add that I loathe New Year's Eve.  I hate the hype and the expectation to go out and have some sort of epic time, which is almost always a disappointment.  I'm terrified to get out on the roads for fear of all the drunk drivers.  I haven't gone out in years and rarely stay up until midnight anymore unless my children make me.  NYE Humbug!

I think I have only been out for NYE twice in my lifetime.  I don't get the hype. 

One year when my son was little, he wanted to stay up and see what it was all about (I think he was 5 at the time), so I said sure!  I made hot chocolate and we watched cartoons until it was time to switch over for the ball drop.  After it was over, he said "That's it?".  I said yep, that's it.  He said "Well, now I have no reason to stay up on NYE anymore" and went to bed!

shelivesthedream

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #113 on: December 27, 2017, 01:27:02 AM »
So, Christmas happened. It was mostly fine, actually, as we've stepped way back from everything we hate about it. Still wish my family would stop doing presents, but we received two roasting tins, a cake a cake slice, shower gel, chocolates, a scented candle, gin, two books and a really lovely framed picture (ostensibly for our unborn child!). I'm hoping we can pare it down further in terms of quantity next year, but none of it is junk for junk's sake.

However, my husband received a LOT of work gifts. His boss gave his a set of wine glasses (!!!), his senior colleague gave him a cheque (!!! ostensibly to help out with baby stuff) and lots of his clients bought him small gifts like wine or chocolates but a few of them put money in the card (!!!). We did not give anything to anyone at his work. We feel very uncomfortable receiving these things. We do not want people to feel like they have to give us presents. Our preliminary solution is to write gushing thank you cards to boss and senior colleague, and to use all the money to buy my husband some work equipment. We discussed giving it to charity but he feels that if his clients wanted to give to charity they could have done it themselves, so spending the money on something that benefits them is a good compromise.

This is why I hate "mandatory" presents. It is sometimes so stressful to receive things. We are very very gracious on the surface, but underneath wishing that they had kept their money for themselves (I am sure many of his clients in particular need it more than we do). Hoping we can head his boss and colleague off at the pass next year.

driftwood

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #114 on: December 27, 2017, 01:51:30 AM »

I HATE the fact that a religious event was transformed into a global event of mass consumption. Baby Jesus got 3 presents. How did this evolve into this madness.


I agree with your whole list. But I have to say, this 'religious event' was engineered to take over an existing religious event from a competing religion. "Keep Christ in Christmas" cracks me up, because Christ isn't the real reason for the season, winter solstice is... it just got hijacked because it was a way for the Church to take over a 'pagan' holiday and make it Christian. Bunch of hooligans. And yes, the mass consumerism has taken over the holiday. Fair play and all that, holidays are open for being taken over.

Once I got off the Christian bandwagon, and then the consumerism bandwagon, most holidays lost their luster for me.

Cpa Cat

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #115 on: December 27, 2017, 08:18:55 AM »
However, my husband received a LOT of work gifts. His boss gave his a set of wine glasses (!!!), his senior colleague gave him a cheque (!!! ostensibly to help out with baby stuff) and lots of his clients bought him small gifts like wine or chocolates but a few of them put money in the card (!!!). We did not give anything to anyone at his work. We feel very uncomfortable receiving these things. We do not want people to feel like they have to give us presents. Our preliminary solution is to write gushing thank you cards to boss and senior colleague, and to use all the money to buy my husband some work equipment. We discussed giving it to charity but he feels that if his clients wanted to give to charity they could have done it themselves, so spending the money on something that benefits them is a good compromise.

Don't feel stressed and uncomfortable!

Clients sometimes give gifts to demonstrate their appreciation for services. Just take it as a sign that they feel that your husband goes above and beyond and they want to give him a token of thanks. They know they don't have to buy him a gift, but they want him to feel appreciated because they like him and think he does a good job.

As for boss/manager gifts - I think it's a little old fashioned, but it is a tradition. There's no reciprocity demanded. Personally, I think if he told you it was for baby stuff, then you should use it for baby stuff.

Aelias

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #116 on: December 27, 2017, 01:01:04 PM »
I have very mixed feelings about Christmas.  My kids enjoy it, and I have a few Christmas traditions that I'm enjoying carrying on.  I like the music. 

The challenging part for me comes from my relationship with my mother-in-law.  They come up to visit and provide childcare for the week after Christmas, which I appreciate.  But she basically has no respect for our values and wants to turn the whole thing into The Grandma Show!  Which is hard to abide.

-She makes us all go to Mass on Christmas Eve.  I'm not Catholic, and my husband (who was forced into religion as a child) now hates, hates, hates church.  My kids are really too little for it to be anything other than an ordeal.  During Mass, they played Silent Night and I almost burst into tears.  Not because I hate the song--I love it!  And I have beautiful memories of candlelight vigils to that song at my old church.  But going to church with her is not warm or welcoming or in any way spiritual.  It's a chore.

-She cooks tons and tons of food, relying heavily on cheap, oversalted, highly processed ingredients.  We spend the next month trying to eat the leftovers.  She won't eat my homemade bread--we have to buy special white "sandwich bread" for her.

-She drops not-so-subtle hints that our house isn't comfortable enough for her.  We keep the heat too low.  We don't have cable. Our pillows aren't fluffy enough.  And none of the equipment or ingredients in my kitchen are any good, mostly because it's not her kitchen.

-Worst of all is the toys.  TOO GOD DAMN MANY TOYS!  All plastic, battery operated, noisy crap.  And she spends the entire week fishing for compliments and trying to make the kids say that her toys are the best.

I try to understand where she's coming from and find empathy and gratitude.  She grew up in a big family where there probably wasn't always a lot to go around.  So, naturally, she likes abundance, and she doesn't have the same ideas about quality over quantity that we do.  And when my husband and his brother were little, they took the kids "back home" to her parents' house for Christmas.  I'm sure she hoped one day all her kids would bring her grandkids "back home" and she'd get to do Christmas her way in her own house.

Long story short, we do a lot to try to accommodate what she wants for Christmas.  Which is really what Christmas is about as an adult--bringing joy to others.  But it's trying and it's a lot of work.  And I don't think it leaves any of us particularly joyful at the end of the day.

Miss Piggy

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #117 on: December 27, 2017, 01:38:43 PM »
-She drops not-so-subtle hints that our house isn't comfortable enough for her.  We keep the heat too low.  We don't have cable. Our pillows aren't fluffy enough.  And none of the equipment or ingredients in my kitchen are any good, mostly because it's not her kitchen.

As someone who is often cold when others are comfortable, I sympathize with her. And this is an easy fix for you to offer. Can you turn your thermostat up a few degrees while she is visiting? I know, I know, it's not mustachian, but it really will make a world of difference in her visit. It's a "pick your battles" situation, you know?

Seriously, being cold indoors is miserable, and that misery "rubs off" on the entire experience. If she's physically comfortable, she'll be mentally happier. I can almost guarantee it.

Aelias

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #118 on: December 27, 2017, 01:51:30 PM »
Oh, we absolutely do turn up the heat for her, and offer extra blankets for the night time.  We've showed her how to use the thermostat and told her she can set it however high she wants.  But, she can't just say, "Could you please turn up the heat?"  She just walks around huddled over, complaining vaguely about our house never being warm. 

So, it's not so much that we aren't willing to make changes to accommodate her.  It's more that we didn't have our house the "right" temperature in the first instance, if that makes sense?  Same with other stuff we do.  Over the years, we've learned that there's some stuff we just need to have in the house or do differently when they're around, but then there are other complaints.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 02:00:02 PM by Aelias »

Cpa Cat

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #119 on: December 27, 2017, 02:05:20 PM »
-She makes us all go to Mass on Christmas Eve.  I'm not Catholic, and my husband (who was forced into religion as a child) now hates, hates, hates church.  My kids are really too little for it to be anything other than an ordeal. 

I put my foot down about Mass this year. Last year, I had to leave because the incense was giving me a migraine. So this year, I stayed home by myself while everyone else went.

Despite hand-wringing from my husband about how important it is to his family, it turned out to be no big deal. No one even asked me to explain. When I said, "I'm not going to church this year," the only response was "Oh ok. See you later."

The truth is, there's no good reason why you need to go to Mass when you're not Catholic. It's an empty, meaningless gesture. If you're worried about it, try role-playing the conversation with your husband so that you can be prepared.


For the temperature - buy a little space heater and let her plug it in and point it at herself. It'll cost about $25 and she can carry it around from room to room.

Cwadda

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #120 on: December 27, 2017, 02:20:13 PM »
This year I boycotted Christmas consumerism. I did not accept any material gifts nor give any out.

All gifts I gave had to do with spending more time with that individual. It honestly wasn't even hard. I didn't have to scratch my head trying to think of shit people don't need.

My niece and nephews receive 40 gallon GARBAGE BAGS filled with presents from their grandparents (who compete with one another). I will not partake, no thank you.

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #121 on: December 27, 2017, 02:42:38 PM »
Oh, we absolutely do turn up the heat for her, and offer extra blankets for the night time.  We've showed her how to use the thermostat and told her she can set it however high she wants.  But, she can't just say, "Could you please turn up the heat?"  She just walks around huddled over, complaining vaguely about our house never being warm. 

So, it's not so much that we aren't willing to make changes to accommodate her.  It's more that we didn't have our house the "right" temperature in the first instance, if that makes sense?  Same with other stuff we do.  Over the years, we've learned that there's some stuff we just need to have in the house or do differently when they're around, but then there are other complaints.

I see. So it's always going to be something. Well, at least you're trying hard. :)

FINate

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #122 on: December 27, 2017, 05:17:54 PM »

I HATE the fact that a religious event was transformed into a global event of mass consumption. Baby Jesus got 3 presents. How did this evolve into this madness.


I agree with your whole list. But I have to say, this 'religious event' was engineered to take over an existing religious event from a competing religion. "Keep Christ in Christmas" cracks me up, because Christ isn't the real reason for the season, winter solstice is... it just got hijacked because it was a way for the Church to take over a 'pagan' holiday and make it Christian. Bunch of hooligans. And yes, the mass consumerism has taken over the holiday. Fair play and all that, holidays are open for being taken over.

Once I got off the Christian bandwagon, and then the consumerism bandwagon, most holidays lost their luster for me.

Most people know Christmas is an adaptation/reformulation of pagan practices. I don't see a problem with it...culture never emerges ex nihilo, always evolves and adapts. There's precedent for this as well with evidence that Hebrew culture (including what we read in the Old Testament) evolved within surrounding cultures. On the surface there are many similarities (cosmic geology, ontology, cultic symbols and rituals), sometimes leading people to conclude that Hebrew culture is somehow 'derivative' (should be noted that some early proponents of this view, esp. Friedrich Delitzsch, were anti-semitic). Yet what really matters is that the resulting meaning, purpose, and theology are distinct and, in fact, quite revolutionary for their time. Communicating to the people of that time, in their cultural context, a profound message...such as humans being created as partners with God rather than as slaves to serve the gods.

So in a world that so often values power and violence, theomachy in the days of old, or simply political and military power, many choose to instead celebrate a story that inverts the norm. God willingly humbling himself and giving up power, to enter into and bind himself to humanity and model love and service to others. He didn't come into a family with wealth or power, but to a subjugated people with no power, a poor family in an unassuming backwater, to a young woman of low social status. IMO pagan symbols/rituals are much less of a concern (especially since their meaning has been reformulated) than consumerism which emphases personal gratification over loving and serving others (and yes, I think Christians should think long and hard about how our current President pretty much embodies complete opposite of this -- hope I didn't just completely derail this thread).

Modern society is so busy working and doing activities 24x7. I'm just thankful that we still have a day where the vast majority of people get the day off, where most stores are closed and families can come together in whatever way is meaningful for them, be that Christian, Pagan, or strictly secular.
 

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #123 on: December 28, 2017, 07:31:11 AM »
Another Christmas-hater here, although I try hard to enjoy bits of it.  I do a bit of decorating and I got myself a faux fireplace log set - sounds chintzy, but it is SO nice to take a bit of time away from the insanity with Christmas lights, a remarkably realistic-looking "fire", an alcoholic or sweet treat, and Handel's Messiah.

Gifts are absolutely the worst part of Christmas for me, as it is for lots of others here.  The annual gift obligations have totalled ~$1000/year since I started keeping track.  My family have made a pact to limit gifts to kids only, which helps a bit.  Using Amazon to pick items, gift wrap, and send gifts makes the kid obligations a whole lot easier (and cheaper) than it used to be.  Is it my imagination, does UPS hugely inflate its shipping rates before Christmas? 

The work-related impact of Christmas is by far the hardest to deal with though.  There is of course the mandatory holiday parties, office staff gift pool, holiday grab bag etc.  On top of that, there is an annual professional conference I have to attend that is timed in early December every year.  It's physically taxing, between the travel and the 5 days of nonstop 7am to 10pm events. Everyone then spends the next several weeks being sick.  This makes the holiday obligations even more onerous, although it does give you a good excuse to stay home and rest.  My main Christmas gift to myself every year is the annual supply of Airborne, elderberry syrup, cough drops, Sudafed, Mucinex, and ingredients for hot toddies.

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #124 on: December 28, 2017, 08:00:35 AM »
If you cut out broadcast / cable / satellite, you are relieved from the actual commercials.  I think that is part of what has made Christmas more bearable for us in recent years.  We went to see Star Wars - The Last Jedi in the theater on Tuesday (which, off topic, was mediocre and over-rated) and were shell shocked just sitting through the 20 minutes of commercials.  It's mind pollution.

I still go to mass on Christmas Eve and I enjoy the religious carols.  The secular Christmas music, not so much.

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #125 on: December 28, 2017, 08:23:03 AM »
I used to find Christmas stressful. We pared back a bit, and focus on the things we enjoy, which include:
-Very limited gift giving. Only the kids get gifts, and no one ever buys plastic junk.
-Finally convinced my husband to not buy a ton of stuff for me. This year I received running socks & wine. Perfect!
-I make a special bread, and toast that up on Christmas morning.
-We scaled way back on the food prep/effort, which makes the entire event way more enjoyable.
-We spend a couple of days with my family, & then head to the Oregon coast. It's gorgeous, relaxing & a good tradition when you have plenty of time off of work.

This year was pretty much perfect (other than being sick), but I'm hoping next year, my sister, who is amazing but clearly an over shopper at the grocery store, will buy a reasonable amount, vs going crazy & buying 10x the amount of food we need. Food waste makes me crazy!

All in all, I actually really enjoy my family & spending time together. Christmas is just an excuse to do that.

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #126 on: December 28, 2017, 09:04:43 AM »
-She makes us all go to Mass on Christmas Eve.  I'm not Catholic, and my husband (who was forced into religion as a child) now hates, hates, hates church.  My kids are really too little for it to be anything other than an ordeal. 


The truth is, there's no good reason why you need to go to Mass when you're not Catholic. It's an empty, meaningless gesture. If you're worried about it, try role-playing the conversation with your husband so that you can be prepared.


For the temperature - buy a little space heater and let her plug it in and point it at herself. It'll cost about $25 and she can carry it around from room to room.

Good thoughts on both.  Actually writing out my grievances here was helpful.  Part of me thinks I just have to give less of a fuck.  We'll, of course, be gracious and generous hosts, but it seems like no matter what we do, she's not happy.  It's sort of a "Can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself" situation.

Thanks all for the thoughtful replies. 

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #127 on: December 28, 2017, 09:37:58 AM »
If you cut out broadcast / cable / satellite, you are relieved from the actual commercials.  I think that is part of what has made Christmas more bearable for us in recent years.  We went to see Star Wars - The Last Jedi in the theater on Tuesday (which, off topic, was mediocre and over-rated) and were shell shocked just sitting through the 20 minutes of commercials.  It's mind pollution.

I still go to mass on Christmas Eve and I enjoy the religious carols.  The secular Christmas music, not so much.

We haven't had cable since 2001, exposed to almost zero advertising. Your description of "shell shocked" pretty much describes how we feel when we see commercials (at in-laws or at a hotel room). Loud, in your face, and so repetitive -- repeating and repeating, ad nauseam -- which I can only assume is to wear your defenses down, 'cause when you haven't been exposed in a long time it blatantly obvious how ridiculous they are. It's totally mind pollution.

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #128 on: December 28, 2017, 02:58:25 PM »
So I seen it mentioned here and quite frankly all over the place that baby Jesus only got 3 presents. Does anybody know how many presents eight-year-old Jesus got? Because that seems to be the age when presents go completely overboard. I mean we (edit for typo) didn't buy our baby anything. Babies don't really need presents. Also it was supposedly Jesus's birthday, again not many babies get anything for their like zeroth birthday so Jesus would have gotten more than most.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 05:34:52 PM by iowajes »

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #129 on: December 28, 2017, 04:16:20 PM »
So I seen it mentioned here and quite frankly all over the place that baby Jesus only got 3 presents. Does anybody know how many presents eight-year-old Jesus got? Because that seems to be the age when presents go completely overboard. I mean we did by our baby anything. Babies don't really need presents. Also it was supposedly Jesus's birthday, again not many babies get anything for their like zeroth birthday so Jesus would have gotten more than most.

I know this is a snarky and flippant complaint/question/observation, but there's actually a couple valuable questions and points in there worth actually addressing and answering for anyone genuinely curious.

TL;DR in advance: To use Matthew 2 for proof texting to justify giving gifts to everyone and to justify celebrating birthdays is a little bonkers. Here's why...

The birth narrative regarding the three magi and the gifts given is one of importance. The magi in question cited in Matthew 2:1 were three Babylonian astronomers (not sorcerers or pagans, but fearers of HaShem and possibly even remaining Jewish diaspora taught by the hands of Daniel the prophet's students and/or direct writings) who were waiting patiently for the Messiah, the prophesied King of Israel to arrive.

Now, this is an important point. Yeshua, is not only the Messiah, but the prophesied King of Israel (in this first appearance, patterning the servant redeemer of Joseph, son of Jacob/Israel, and not of the still anticipated and waiting conquering son of David in His return). Given the nature of their titles, education and origins, it's unlikely that these Wise Men were sitting around spinning on their thumbs waiting for the news. They knew where and when, and as such, traveled to be a part of it happening.

Anyway, remember one of Yeshua's titles, King of Kings. In Eastern cultural tradition, when people went before a king, it was customary for the visitors to bring a gift (assumed worthy of a king) to present that king while in their presence.

Gold is self-explanatory in its intrinsic value.
Frankincense was a valuable incense and medical commodity in the day - so rare and costly that it was quite precious, but more importantly, it is also one of the key ingredients in the sacred incense that was to be burned only by the Hebrew priests and only in the Temple.
Myrrh was also as valuable as gold in the day due to its medicinal value as a pain reliever and treatment for various illnesses.

There's some symbolism there with all three as well, but I'll forego belaboring the point further.

Needless to say, when you weigh the cultural and prophetic significance and purpose of these gifts, it's clearly there to emphasize something specific. Yes, Elohim has come to earth to save the Jews and genties alike and dwells among us, and it is Yeshua - Jesus of Nazareth! He didn't get gifts for being born or to celebrate His birthdate, He got gifts because He is the King of Kings.

As for the "how many presents eight-year-old Jesus got" question? None. Celebrating birthdays is a pagan custom tied in with astrology and the assumption that somehow the layout of the universe could affect and impact how lucky or materially profitable one's life can be. Most non-Hellinized Jews at the time really didn't pay much attention to birthdates outside of the practical stuff of needing to count off eight days for circumcision, 40 days for temple dedication, and the week of for Bar Mitzvah twelve years later. There is likely prophetic significance to the date Yeshua was born on as well being tied with a fall feast date, but that's besides the point as even the Emissaries don't record the exact date of His birth (even if it could be roughly implied toward the ten day window of Rosh Hashanah/Yom Kippur, and given we don't know the day nor hour of His return, I'd personally lean closer to Yom Kippur). It's not that important, though. It's pretty impossible given all the info surrounding the narrative for it being the Winter Solstice.

The dates that mattered most was the day He died (during the Passover slaughter), the day He resurrected (end of Shabbat during the week of Passover), and the festival that coincided with the 40th day after His resurrection when He ascended back to Heaven (Shavuot, celebrating when Torah was handed down from Sinai - significant as Yeshua ushered in the age of Torah written to the hearts of man). There's a lot going on there.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 04:28:02 PM by Daley »

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #130 on: December 28, 2017, 05:45:22 PM »
Okay. So based on that, the number of gifts Jesus got is irrelevant to modern present giving.

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #131 on: December 28, 2017, 07:48:28 PM »
Exactly.

And this is why I disagree with others about how little this stuff matters, and that cultural evolution and adaptation happens and it's okay.

When you start to actually unpack and learn about the true Biblical Jewish Messiah, the fact that observations like this from people who "believe in Jesus" deciding how many gifts Geezooss got should inform our proper Crissmuss gift giving raises the painful question of, "Who, or what exactly have all these people actually been taught to worship and call on for their eternal salvation?"

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #132 on: December 28, 2017, 08:14:06 PM »
Exactly.

And this is why I disagree with others about how little this stuff matters, and that cultural evolution and adaptation happens and it's okay.

When you start to actually unpack and learn about the true Biblical Jewish Messiah, the fact that observations like this from people who "believe in Jesus" deciding how many gifts Geezooss got should inform our proper Crissmuss gift giving raises the painful question of, "Who, or what exactly have all these people actually been taught to worship and call on for their eternal salvation?"

To be clear, I don't think it's all okay. The consumerism aspect is a problem. And I don't think Christians should use how many gifts Jesus got as any sort of guideline (agree, that's just strange, misses the bigger picture). But don't see a problem with people celebrating Emmanuel on Dec 25 even though this date isn't accurate. Same for putting up a tree. I know it comes from a pagan tradition, but that's not what it means to us.

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #133 on: December 28, 2017, 10:56:44 PM »
To be clear, I don't think it's all okay. The consumerism aspect is a problem. And I don't think Christians should use how many gifts Jesus got as any sort of guideline (agree, that's just strange, misses the bigger picture). But don't see a problem with people celebrating Emmanuel on Dec 25 even though this date isn't accurate. Same for putting up a tree. I know it comes from a pagan tradition, but that's not what it means to us.

We are called to be a set apart people. We are called to flee from sin and idolatry. Heck, look up asherah trees sometime, and see what was said about them in Torah and by the prophets... then look at the historical evidence of them being co-opted into Hebrew worship, and remember what He did to them for their rebellion and disobedience.

Personal sentimentality and what it means to you doesn't enter into the picture here. You yourself have admitted that you know these elements are of pagan origin, yet you cling to them. Now ask yourself, "If I go out among the nations only celebrating my Messiah's arrival in this world on December 25th, and I even do so by putting up a tree and [insert any other tradition you still cling to here] just as they do, who will others assume and believe I am claiming was hung on the execution stake as the ransom for my sins?"

Or think a couple three generations down the line in your family. "Grandpa believed in Messiah and he celebrated on the 25th with a tree, but he didn't do any of the other stuff, and gosh do I feel like I'm missing out on the full experience here. It won't hurt any if we do the whole schmear, right?"

You do recall the memo we got about HaShem being a consuming fire and a jealous G-d, right? Right? Remember what Yeshua said there in Matthew 5:17-20 and in John 4:16-26?

Aren't you kind of relaxing something here when you aren't worshiping in both spirit and truth?

Edit: Look, I get it. Don't you think there aren't things this walking husk misses? You'd better believe it. I reveled in everything about Christmas and Easter as celebrated by "traditional" mainstream Christianity all while professing Jesus! There was so much time and energy devoted to not justice, but vengeance, and the glee it had filled me with. I even had a major fondness for grilled cheese sandwiches filled with crisp bacon. There are no shortage of things I could cite for you, trust me. But here's the thing, they filled my belly, and still left me wanting.

The joy of filling my soul is greater than any of these things put together. If I indulge in any of the other, it takes away room for what should be there, and I am left hungry and wanting once more.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 11:35:56 PM by Daley »

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #134 on: December 29, 2017, 03:49:28 AM »
Didn't you say man has no free will though?
So why does it matter what we do? God already decided we'd be doing that. We can't change anything, apparently.

Daley

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #135 on: December 29, 2017, 10:07:44 AM »
Didn't you say man has no free will though?
So why does it matter what we do? God already decided we'd be doing that. We can't change anything, apparently.

No I did not, that was someone else. We have been given the capacity to choose to accept or reject our Creator. What sort of Good News is Messiah coming to provide the opportunity for redemption to the entire world, if the opportunity to come to fear and love is stripped from us leaving no hope upon hearing that word, but utter destruction whether we want it or not?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 10:16:25 AM by Daley »

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #136 on: December 29, 2017, 10:22:38 AM »
Oh, okay. I'm at least with you on that one.

No free will is baffling. Why would God put me here to argue that your legalistic view of Christianity is contrary to Christ's message?

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #137 on: December 29, 2017, 10:41:15 AM »
The Pelagian / semi-Pelagian heresy rears its ugly head.

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #138 on: December 29, 2017, 10:45:12 AM »
I was raised Greek Orthodox and to tell the truth my yiayia made a big deal of Epiphany and New Years. Some Greek Orthodox still celebrate Christmas on Jan 7. But in my family while we still use the old calendar for Easter, most now celebrate Christmas on Dec 25, because that's when everyone has off. So, we are already "off script"! Christmas has become an accumulation of traditions from many parts of the world, even the foods that are traditional in one place, becomes a tradition more generally.
I don't think anyone who has a Christmas tree is "worshipping" it. I agree that Christmas has co-oped pagan traditions to have it land near the winter solstice, and to have this be a holiday that brings hope and abundance and celebration during a time when the days are shortest and it is winter.  Maybe dare I say, there are spiritual reasons for desiring holidays and celebrations, and times for people to be together?

I am definitely not dogmatic regarding religion. I am no longer practicing. The main aspects when I was growing up, was Advent, some fasting beforehand, and then Christmas Eve mass, with lighting of the candles and of course all the good food. It is a time of celebration and family. Whether this is appropriated or added on after the years, Christmas for me (and I'm sure for most Christians) stands for celebrating the birth of Christ. And in turn to try to be giving. To loved ones. And to others less fortunate. So I see Christmas as a time for people to be giving and forgiving and so more Christ-like (aka gift of the Magi), I think it fulfills something deep in us. But it is up to each person and family, to create those rituals and those meanings. Blaming Christmas for the commercialism is misplaced.     

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #139 on: December 29, 2017, 12:02:35 PM »
Oh, okay. I'm at least with you on that one.

No free will is baffling. Why would God put me here to argue that your legalistic view of Christianity is contrary to Christ's message?

Exactly.

As for my "legalistic" view? Note, I mentioned I get that from both camps, both the pure free will and pure predestination camps. Perhaps revisit my own response to Farmer when called legalistic by them.

All I'm observing is that not all things are profitable. And please note I write this with great compassion for you and your heart. Is it profitable to focus so heavily on one day a year to celebrate Emmanuel and family, that the mere date passing by tears back open the wounds of loss instead of letting us heal and filling us with joy in taking comfort in His peace and knowledge? There is healing in going through the process of grief, and in not forgetting the loss of that divine spark of life... and then there's getting it unintentionally torn back open by others for the sake of tradition.

I'm not saying that the desire to observe and celebrate Yeshua dwelling among us cannot be profitable. We need training wheels as we come up in the faith, after all, to apply such things better to our daily walks. Nor am I saying that recognizing that dwelling among us during the Winter Solstice immediately makes it idolatrous, especially if we do reflect it daily. All I'm observing is that so long as we continue to approach the idea and the celebration the same way as the rest of the world, and we see the damage that those other values bring to the hearts and souls of both the believers and non-believers through their application... if we come to that knowledge and see the pain it needlessly inflicts, of what profit is it to ignore that and do nothing in response?

I am no legalist, I assure you. We cannot be perfect, it's impossible for us to not miss the mark. We need Messiah as our covering, our redeemer, for without Him, we are lost. That faith and repentance covers a multitude of sins. He restores and regenerates us as we mature in the faith. But, we need love, we need that encouragement between the brothers and sisters toward righteousness, to not neglect the way just for the sake of making the message more palatable or cause confusion. No date, no date at all on any calendar, should make our hearts yearn or ache to the point of believing we are somehow missing something... anything... more than what Messiah has already provided us.

I am genuinely sorry if you or anyone else cannot see that heart of encouragement with the words I have shared, and hope you can bring yourself to forgive me if it was received as such. I too, can miss the mark, and language without the physical connection can at times lose meaning.

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #140 on: December 29, 2017, 01:16:10 PM »
To be clear, I don't think it's all okay. The consumerism aspect is a problem. And I don't think Christians should use how many gifts Jesus got as any sort of guideline (agree, that's just strange, misses the bigger picture). But don't see a problem with people celebrating Emmanuel on Dec 25 even though this date isn't accurate. Same for putting up a tree. I know it comes from a pagan tradition, but that's not what it means to us.

We are called to be a set apart people. We are called to flee from sin and idolatry. Heck, look up asherah trees sometime, and see what was said about them in Torah and by the prophets... then look at the historical evidence of them being co-opted into Hebrew worship, and remember what He did to them for their rebellion and disobedience.

Personal sentimentality and what it means to you doesn't enter into the picture here. You yourself have admitted that you know these elements are of pagan origin, yet you cling to them. Now ask yourself, "If I go out among the nations only celebrating my Messiah's arrival in this world on December 25th, and I even do so by putting up a tree and [insert any other tradition you still cling to here] just as they do, who will others assume and believe I am claiming was hung on the execution stake as the ransom for my sins?"

Or think a couple three generations down the line in your family. "Grandpa believed in Messiah and he celebrated on the 25th with a tree, but he didn't do any of the other stuff, and gosh do I feel like I'm missing out on the full experience here. It won't hurt any if we do the whole schmear, right?"

You do recall the memo we got about HaShem being a consuming fire and a jealous G-d, right? Right? Remember what Yeshua said there in Matthew 5:17-20 and in John 4:16-26?

Aren't you kind of relaxing something here when you aren't worshiping in both spirit and truth?

Edit: Look, I get it. Don't you think there aren't things this walking husk misses? You'd better believe it. I reveled in everything about Christmas and Easter as celebrated by "traditional" mainstream Christianity all while professing Jesus! There was so much time and energy devoted to not justice, but vengeance, and the glee it had filled me with. I even had a major fondness for grilled cheese sandwiches filled with crisp bacon. There are no shortage of things I could cite for you, trust me. But here's the thing, they filled my belly, and still left me wanting.

The joy of filling my soul is greater than any of these things put together. If I indulge in any of the other, it takes away room for what should be there, and I am left hungry and wanting once more.

I get where you're coming from. But the issue for me isn't that people carry on formerly pagan traditions. Most people don't go around thinking of Thursday as dedicated to Thor...it's just an empty name. My issue with Christmas is that, even for many Christians, it's about Jesus in name only. I would be quite happy if people decorated Christmas trees while really understanding their faith and rich depth of scripture. To the extent that reformulated pagan holidays distract from or oppose (e.g. consumerism) the core tenets of the faith, I agree with you.

But there are much higher concerns on my list for Christians in America other than traditions that are void of any meaning other than "it's what we've always done":
  • A fundamental misunderstanding of Trinitarian Theology, what this means about the essential nature of the Godhead, and how this relates to us. My sense is that many Christians incorrectly believe in a form of modalism.
  • The above leads many Christians to the sense that God merely tolerates them. That hippy Jesus (my friend!) saves me from the wrath of God (the angry father). So screwed up and totally misses the big picture of the narrative woven throughout scripture of God repeatedly reaching out, again and again, to restore relationship with humans. And how this all points to Jesus, fully God, lowering himself to become fully human and suffer, thereby becoming the new Adam binding us to God in a new covenant. For those in Christ we are not simply tolerated, but are pleasing to God, He delights in us.
  • An incorrect belief that the material world is bad (because the fall) and we are just riding out our time on Earth so our spirits can go to heaven. I don't understand how the church could allow Gnostic philosophy like this to become commonplace.
  • Elaborating on the above, the wrong belief that the final state is disembodied spirits floating around in bliss. No! Scripture is clear that there will be a new physical creation: resurrection of bodies, a renewed creation, a new city and a new garden of Eden. All things will be redeemed, we will live in perfect relationship with God in a renewed creation.
  • Perhaps specific to Evangelicalism: A transactional theology focused primarily on "going to heaven"...really an obsession with personal salvation as a means to eternal life. Perform a ritual (sinner's prayer) or believe (in an academic sense) certain things, and I can get into heaven. This makes it primarily about self, not surprising then that so many lack concern for social justice and others. Eternal life isn't the goal, the presence of God is the prize, eternal life is a secondary result.


I could go on, but I think you get my point.

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #141 on: December 29, 2017, 01:57:17 PM »
I get where you're coming from.

[insert a colossal wall of oh yes, absolutely, preach it brother!]

I could go on, but I think you get my point.

Nate, seriously. Bless you, sir. No beef from me on any of those points. Full agreement across the board on that list.

The only thing left at this point, that I must ask, is how to we get to those dialogues with most people without choking them to death on meat, after so many of them have been fed nothing but pablum their entire spiritual lives?

This is why I start small and seek to facilitate a dialogue at a point where that foundational groundwork can be better understood and is built upon the truth. If we cannot even strengthen one's faith with the truth on such a simple issue, what does that say to the foundation?

Use the symptoms to help reveal the sickness and need for a cure. :)

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #142 on: December 29, 2017, 03:07:37 PM »
"Bah!" I say on this true meaning of Christmas banter. Who gives a flip?!

I'm just so glad it is over. All y'all with your thread highjack arguing about the "true" meaning of it, or whether "real" Christians who study scripture should even celebrate it, is one of the many things I can't stand about it! I don't give a flip what you believe, or what your dear little book tells you and would also tell me, if only you could get me to read it.

(Oh wait . . . I have read the entire thing, as a rational adult, just to see what exactly there is in this text that men in power have used successfully to pacify the starving masses. Carry on.)

Ugh, Christmas. Ugh.


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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #143 on: December 29, 2017, 04:02:52 PM »
I loved xmas when my kids were home and all the parents were living. It was
 a fun time of getting together, playing games, eating, exchanging presents and having a lot of fun.  Now all the older relatives are gone and our kids have chosen not to have children so no grandchildren. I am fine with that decision but xmas is definitely different now.  We stopped exchanging gifts with everyone about 10 years ago because no one needs more crap.  I only have a small box of decorations, I quit sending cards and we invite family and friends over for a nice meal on xmas day.   On xmas eve my DIL is Polish and cooks us a traditional Polish xmas eve dinner.  It is a lot less work and less stressful. When I hear about grandparents buying kids a million toys I am amazed as the grandparents usually only buy 1 gift per child in our families.  At 63 I am older then most on here but it seems like people have gone crazy in the gift department. 

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #144 on: December 29, 2017, 04:33:08 PM »
I get where you're coming from.

[insert a colossal wall of oh yes, absolutely, preach it brother!]

I could go on, but I think you get my point.

Nate, seriously. Bless you, sir. No beef from me on any of those points. Full agreement across the board on that list.

The only thing left at this point, that I must ask, is how to we get to those dialogues with most people without choking them to death on meat, after so many of them have been fed nothing but pablum their entire spiritual lives?

This is why I start small and seek to facilitate a dialogue at a point where that foundational groundwork can be better understood and is built upon the truth. If we cannot even strengthen one's faith with the truth on such a simple issue, what does that say to the foundation?

Use the symptoms to help reveal the sickness and need for a cure. :)

Bless you as well. Always glad to meet fellow believers here on MMM.

I don't think there's a single answer for your question. For me I think it means being actively engaged in a community of believers...a smaller church that's not trying to be a large church, people really doing life together, giving and receiving, praying and caring for, and speaking truth in grace to one another. I've personally grown more in such a setting than I ever did in a large church. Large can be done well, but it's difficult, and I never really felt connected or challenged. Being FIRE means I can volunteer more time meeting with people, teaching, etc. But yeah, it's still difficult.

Have also considered getting an M.Div. with the intent of starting small churches and/or being more of teaching resource...but already have graduate degrees in engineering and business, wrestling with if it makes sense to go back yet again.

I also support these folks financially. Their videos are very well done, succinct, and packed full of stuff that is often overlooked or misunderstood. Following the rabbit trail of references from their work (incl. supporting lectures/podcasts) has been very help for me to understand scripture and places where I've imposed my 21st century culture on ancient authors and totally missed the point (just finishing https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Near-Eastern-Thought-Testament/dp/0801027500/ which has been very illuminating)   

StarBright

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #145 on: December 29, 2017, 05:00:34 PM »
I love Christmas and Solstice: family traditions like putting up the tree, specific baking projects, watching our annual Christmas movies (White Christmas, Lion in Winter, Scrooge and Elf), our church's advent wreath making workshop, and our annual Solstice Lantern walk give me so much joy and I look forward to it every year.

The traditions and community building that happen during holidays are really beautiful and meaningful to me.

But the different expectations of  "Christmas Morning" depending on which family we are spending the holidays with drives me nuts (usually because of the insane amount of gifts that we don't want or need.) I'm generally done with the season by Christmas Morning but the month leading up to Christmas is one of my favorite times of the year.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: I hate Christmas
« Reply #146 on: December 29, 2017, 09:22:15 PM »
I used to really hate Christmas when I was a kid as you can tell from the newest story in my journal. It was just brutal.