I completely agree with MMM on his decision to hold off on a Tesla indefinitely

[Buffaloski Boris]

Electric cars look like fun. I plan to buy a used one when my eco-friendly* SUV finally wears out. I suppose that’ll happen in the next decade or two.

*as compared to a 1973 Lincoln Continental.

[alienbogey]

In round numbers the car was $36,000 MSRP (which we paid) and $26,000 after incentives.  I pencilled everything out prior to the purchase and, based on $3/gallon gas and our local low electricity rates, we save $.10/mile on fuel costs compared to my wife's minivan.  Therefore, we've saved $2,400 so far on fuel and an additional (uncomputed) amount on the significantly reduced maintenance expense.

That's the Mustachian part.

For fun price out an $18k Chevy Cruze and see which would have been cheaper.

That wouldn't be fun, and I'm not sure what it brings to the discussion.

I wasn't comparing the Bolt to the cheapest possible new ICE car, I was comparing it to the operating costs of my wife's 2004 minivan.

As far as that goes, keeping my 2002 New Beetle (which averaged 44.9mpg while I owned it) would have been far cheaper then a new $18k Chevy Cruze, which I have zero interest in anyway, or $26k (after incentives) Bolt.

[ender]

In round numbers the car was $36,000 MSRP (which we paid) and $26,000 after incentives.  I pencilled everything out prior to the purchase and, based on $3/gallon gas and our local low electricity rates, we save $.10/mile on fuel costs compared to my wife's minivan.  Therefore, we've saved $2,400 so far on fuel and an additional (uncomputed) amount on the significantly reduced maintenance expense.

That's the Mustachian part.

For fun price out an $18k Chevy Cruze and see which would have been cheaper.

That wouldn't be fun, and I'm not sure what it brings to the discussion.

I wasn't comparing the Bolt to the cheapest possible new ICE car, I was comparing it to the operating costs of my wife's 2004 minivan.

As far as that goes, keeping my 2002 New Beetle (which averaged 44.9mpg while I owned it) would have been far cheaper then a new $18k Chevy Cruze, which I have zero interest in anyway, or $26k (after incentives) Bolt.

Then don't call it a mustachian purchase?

[BECABECA]

In round numbers the car was $36,000 MSRP (which we paid) and $26,000 after incentives.  I pencilled everything out prior to the purchase and, based on $3/gallon gas and our local low electricity rates, we save $.10/mile on fuel costs compared to my wife's minivan.  Therefore, we've saved $2,400 so far on fuel and an additional (uncomputed) amount on the significantly reduced maintenance expense.

That's the Mustachian part.

For fun price out an $18k Chevy Cruze and see which would have been cheaper.

That wouldn't be fun, and I'm not sure what it brings to the discussion.

I wasn't comparing the Bolt to the cheapest possible new ICE car, I was comparing it to the operating costs of my wife's 2004 minivan.

As far as that goes, keeping my 2002 New Beetle (which averaged 44.9mpg while I owned it) would have been far cheaper then a new $18k Chevy Cruze, which I have zero interest in anyway, or $26k (after incentives) Bolt.

Then don't call it a mustachian purchase?

@ender I think you’re getting confused about the Mustachian label. It’s Mustachian to reduce your expenditure while maintaining the same level of joy (or ideally increasing your joy). Mustachian doesn’t require reducing your expenditure so far as to the point of reducing your joy. For @alienbogey this purchase is Mustachian, but for you it wouldn’t be. Each person has their own value functions and it’s not helpful to tell them their decisions are wrong because they don’t fit into your value functions.

[GodlessCommie]

Everything but the powertrain basically. I want gauges,physical controls, simple keys. I don't want smart summon, everything through a touch screen, auto-pilot, constant over the air updates, fart sounds, sentry mode or to have to install a smart phone app to use my car. I realize other cars are trending in that direction, but thankfully nothing is nearly to that point yet.

Imagine a current Accord/Fusion/Camry/Mazda6 that just happens to have a Tesla powertrain underneath. You just get in and drive, literally the only functional difference being when the "tank" gets low, you plug it in rather than going to a gas station.

This is mostly an illustration to the saying "One man's trash is another man's treasure". Basically, Tesla is not a good cultural fit for some people, while being a great cultural fit for others.

Several practical points, though:
- You just get into Tesla and drive. The functional difference is miniscule.
- if you don't want smart summon, you don't buy the FSD package.
- if you don't want fart sounds, you don't use fart sounds.
- You could get gauges and physical controls, but it would make the car more expensive - as counter-intuitive as it sounds.

Honda/Ford/Mazda/Toyota are free to start producing Accord/Fusion/Camry/Mazda6 that just happens to have a Tesla-like powertrain underneath. They can't. Not that simple, as Jaguar and Audi just proved with I-Pace/e-Tron. And Tesla is selling cars as fast as it can produce them. They keep virtually no inventory. No reason to change course, the current one serves them well.

[Just Joe]

Just wanted to add: look at the used market for non-Tesla vehicles. There are several to choose from and there are examples available from the usual retail sources with under 10K miles on them. That'll be my family's path to EV ownership in a couple of years. Won't be a Tesla - though I think the 'S' is among the nicest looking/engineered car out there - yet. I'm not prepared to spend that kind of money on a depreciating asset yet.

I will however consider a Chevy Bolt for high teens and low-twenties. For our needs we won't judge it on long distance comfort or technology b/c we rarely drive further than 150 miles in any direction anyhow. Any car is comfortable for 150 miles as long as it has a heater and a/c, and keeps us dry when it rains.

I’m surprised you’d consider a used Chevy Bolt. I don’t believe that GM’s Bolt is an honest attempt to sell a viable EV, so I expect they will discontinue it very soon and then not support battery replacements. With GM’s history of sabotaging their very popular EV1 back in the 90s and their limiting the sales of the Bolt in their most popular market in 2017 (Norway) and then discontinuing all European sales shortly afterwards (only 5,000 Bolts sold in all of Europe, not for lack of market demand), it feels disingenuous. I fully expect that GM will continue to ensure they lose money on the Bolt so they can stop making any battery EVs.

YEP! I'm seriously watching for that very situation. If they are still selling the Bolt in a few years when we are getting serious about buying a used one then I'll feel okay about it. If they discontinue the Bolt which to me is a very real chance, then I won't get near one. It'll be Tesla or Leaf.

[Just Joe]

If you're buying a Tesla to save money, it doesn't make much sense right now.

The "it's better for the environment" argument is very flimsy.  Look up what the battery factories do to the surrounding environment.  It is REALLY bad.  Ignoring production, yes it is less harmful than a car with an I.C.E.  But, you can't just ignore production if you're actually concerned about environmental impact.

If you're buying it for fun, I'd say go for it.  Personally I'm waiting until there is more competition and the bugs get worked out.  I treat it like new software; let the other poor saps be the beta testers, then when it's fixed, swoop in and buy used.

The battery factory isn't the problem. Its perhaps the lithium paste supplier they use. Nissan's battery factory is spotless inside and out. They get the lithium in barrels from ???

I'll ask about their material sources the next time I visit the Nissan battery factory.

Everything but the powertrain basically. I want gauges,physical controls, simple keys. I don't want smart summon, everything through a touch screen, auto-pilot, constant over the air updates, fart sounds, sentry mode or to have to install a smart phone app to use my car. I realize other cars are trending in that direction, but thankfully nothing is nearly to that point yet.

Imagine a current Accord/Fusion/Camry/Mazda6 that just happens to have a Tesla powertrain underneath. You just get in and drive, literally the only functional difference being when the "tank" gets low, you plug it in rather than going to a gas station.

BDWW - I agree. I'm a car guy. Prob will always have two+ vehicles. As it stands now we have a comfortable crossover from travel/spare car tasks. Would be nice to have a basic EV (think late-90s Honda) for daily local trips with heat/air cond, AM/FM/AUX/bluetooth, power locks/steering/brakes. And a real key with real switches and knobs on the dash. Restrict all the tech to the screen of a smart phone. Put it on the dash in a holder. 

We currently do alot of our daily trips using a well aged car that costs us very little and is worth very little.

[TomTX]

The "it's better for the environment" argument is very flimsy.  Look up what the battery factories do to the surrounding environment.  It is REALLY bad.  Ignoring production, yes it is less harmful than a car with an I.C.E.  But, you can't just ignore production if you're actually concerned about environmental impact.

You bought into some FUD that the oil industry has been pushing for years. Tesla has all those batteries produced in Nevada in a modern factory with very low emissions. Lithium is a low-impact extraction "mining" brine.

Even with production included (which everyone rational does) - a Model 3 will be far lower lifetime environmental impact than an equivalent new ICE.

[TomTX]

Everything but the powertrain basically. I want gauges,physical controls, simple keys. I don't want smart summon, everything through a touch screen, auto-pilot, constant over the air updates, fart sounds, sentry mode or to have to install a smart phone app to use my car. I realize other cars are trending in that direction, but thankfully nothing is nearly to that point yet.

Other than mechanical gauges which virtually no new car has - you have plenty of physical controls in the Model 3. They're just well integrated. Steering, braking, accelerating, engaging/disengaging cruise control, engaging/disengaging autopilot, swiping the wipers - plus a bunch of items via the thumbwheels on the steering wheel.

You are in no way forced to use summon, autopilot, fart sounds, sentry mode or the smartphone app. Just use the keycard provided with the car and opt out of updates. It's probably a bad idea to opt out of updates.

Of course, when someone keys or breaks into your car, you may wish you had sentry mode - lots of videos online and perpetrators being caught.

[TomTX]

FYI, the $35k Tesla doesn't exist.

Sure it does. You just have to phone in the order or go to a store instead of online.

[Bloop Bloop]

I'll wait for the inevitable rise of alternative Tesla equivalent vehicles from other major auto manufacturers... then buy one of those used.

I continue to hope someone can come along and build a good inexpensive competitor, because I genuinely don't want the extra Silicon Valley baggage the Tesla comes with.  But I won't hold my breath.

I’m curious, what do you mean by “Silicon Valley baggage”?

Everything but the powertrain basically. I want gauges,physical controls, simple keys. I don't want smart summon, everything through a touch screen, auto-pilot, constant over the air updates, fart sounds, sentry mode or to have to install a smart phone app to use my car. I realize other cars are trending in that direction, but thankfully nothing is nearly to that point yet.

Imagine a current Accord/Fusion/Camry/Mazda6 that just happens to have a Tesla powertrain underneath. You just get in and drive, literally the only functional difference being when the "tank" gets low, you plug it in rather than going to a gas station.

The main thing I want is the sound and feeling of a smooth naturally aspirated engine and for that reason I don't think Tesla will ever appeal to me. I want howling at redline.

[BDWW]

Everything but the powertrain basically. I want gauges,physical controls, simple keys. I don't want smart summon, everything through a touch screen, auto-pilot, constant over the air updates, fart sounds, sentry mode or to have to install a smart phone app to use my car. I realize other cars are trending in that direction, but thankfully nothing is nearly to that point yet.

Other than mechanical gauges which virtually no new car has - you have plenty of physical controls in the Model 3. They're just well integrated. Steering, braking, accelerating, engaging/disengaging cruise control, engaging/disengaging autopilot, swiping the wipers - plus a bunch of items via the thumbwheels on the steering wheel.

You are in no way forced to use summon, autopilot, fart sounds, sentry mode or the smartphone app. Just use the keycard provided with the car and opt out of updates. It's probably a bad idea to opt out of updates.

Of course, when someone keys or breaks into your car, you may wish you had sentry mode - lots of videos online and perpetrators being caught.

So compelling... I'm convinced...

[dignam]

The "it's better for the environment" argument is very flimsy.  Look up what the battery factories do to the surrounding environment.  It is REALLY bad.  Ignoring production, yes it is less harmful than a car with an I.C.E.  But, you can't just ignore production if you're actually concerned about environmental impact.

You bought into some FUD that the oil industry has been pushing for years. Tesla has all those batteries produced in Nevada in a modern factory with very low emissions. Lithium is a low-impact extraction "mining" brine.

Even with production included (which everyone rational does) - a Model 3 will be far lower lifetime environmental impact than an equivalent new ICE.

Fair enough, I'm just saying EVs aren't as "clean" as some of the fanboys make it out to be.  I hate when the "zero emissions" tagline is used to sell it.  There is a lot more to it (production/recycling/disposal) which seems to be ignored by some.  It is overall better than ICE though.

And I will own one someday, maybe in 2-3 cars from now. 

[TomTX]

The "it's better for the environment" argument is very flimsy.  Look up what the battery factories do to the surrounding environment.  It is REALLY bad.  Ignoring production, yes it is less harmful than a car with an I.C.E.  But, you can't just ignore production if you're actually concerned about environmental impact.

You bought into some FUD that the oil industry has been pushing for years. Tesla has all those batteries produced in Nevada in a modern factory with very low emissions. Lithium is a low-impact extraction "mining" brine.

Even with production included (which everyone rational does) - a Model 3 will be far lower lifetime environmental impact than an equivalent new ICE.

Fair enough, I'm just saying EVs aren't as "clean" as some of the fanboys make it out to be.  I hate when the "zero emissions" tagline is used to sell it.  There is a lot more to it (production/recycling/disposal) which seems to be ignored by some.  It is overall better than ICE though.

And I will own one someday, maybe in 2-3 cars from now.

Oh, sure. Nothing manufactured that I can think of is totally "clean"

But EVs are a big step in the right direction compared to a fossil vehicle. Nowhere near perfect, of course. Still improving.

[EscapedApe]

It goes against MMM principles - and I am fine with that.

I think I will not regret my decision.

You get to decide what your priorities are wants are. No one else does.

If you are willing to make the trade-off of time taken to retire for the enjoyment of having an electric vehicle, then that's as much reason as you need to do it.

[PJC74]

enjoyed that epic glass fail on their new truck unveil.  Had to watch it a few times LOL

[insufFIcientfunds]

enjoyed that epic glass fail on their new truck unveil.  Had to watch it a few times LOL

I did too. It's just so ugly. Elon is really good at selling an ideology though. "Do your part for the environment and drive fast!"

Cool, let's see how many people use fossil fuels to charge their cars and videos on YouTube I can find about their stupid ass feature that is supposed to bring the car to you but goes wrong.

[GodlessCommie]

Cool, let's see how many people use fossil fuels to charge their cars

I agree with you, glass meets the rock was an epic fail.

Average well-to-wheel emissions of an EV are less than half of that of an ICE car, though. Even in the state with the dirtiest grid (WV), EV is cleaner.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-950-november-7-2016-well-wheel-emissions-typical-ev-state-2015

and videos on YouTube I can find about their stupid ass feature that is supposed to bring the car to you but goes wrong.

Note that videos of things that just work are never as popular on Youtube. Smart summon works in the vast majority of cases, videos of which you can also find.

The real value of smart summon is that it trains the AI in the really difficult environment. An owner may not realize the full value of it right at the moment, but she or he will in one of the future updates.

[smoghat]

So great to have my Tesla right now. I am ready to go at any time. No dirty gas pump and I can run. Bioweapon Defense Mode! It is a godsend!

[afox]

So great to have my Tesla right now. I am ready to go at any time. No dirty gas pump and I can run. Bioweapon Defense Mode! It is a godsend!

Its so great to have that extra 50 thousand dollars right now. Ill take the fuck you money over the tesla any day!