Author Topic: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!  (Read 15022 times)

Syonyk

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I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« on: July 12, 2019, 11:22:09 AM »
Shamelessly copied from my blog: https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2019/07/i-bought-used-chevy-volt-and-you-should-too.html

I give myself permission to use my work in this way. ;)

For those who don't live in a place where a short range BEV is a valid option - consider a used Volt!  It can do everything, though if you don't have any charging capability, don't buy a Volt.

=============

Some while back, I tossed in a (little noticed) comment at the end of a post that we'd obtained a Chevy Volt.  We picked up a used 2012 Volt with under 30k miles, and have been using it quite a bit, because, well, it's our car.



Since it's my blog and I can post what I want, I've decided to talk about the Volt for a while.  I think it's the "sweet spot" for electric transportation at this point in time, I think it's rather significantly more environmentally friendly than a pure BEV for most use cases, and I think that, for most people, it's a really, really good car and highly worth considering if you're interested in cheap, (slightly) environmentally friendly car transportation.  Plus, they depreciate like mad (just like all other electric cars), so you can get one cheaper than you might think!


The Chevy Volt
If you're not familiar with the Volt, you may be in the process of confusing it with the Bolt - which is also a Chevy product.  And some marketing people at Chevy should be strung up for that bit of cutesy confusion, because it doesn't help anyone.  It's confusion for the sake of confusion as far as I'm concerned.

The Bolt is a pure electric car (EV).  The Volt, on the other hand, is a "plug in hybrid," a "series hybrid," a "range extended electric vehicle," or... probably half a dozen terms I've seen over the years.  It's somewhere between a pure electric car and a hybrid - but, in reality, it's far better than either!

The Gen 1 Volt (2011-2015) has a 30-40 mile battery only range in the summer - plus a decent little gasoline engine and a useful gas tank (9 gallons) that can run it down the highway pretty much as long as you can find a gas station every few hundred miles.  The Gen 2 (2016-2019) upgrades to about a 50 mile battery only range, a larger gas engine, and a different transmission design, but works out to the same thing - some battery range and then a gasoline engine for longer travel.



This means that you plug the car in at night (or during the day) to charge the main battery.  When you set off, you run in a pure electric mode for the battery range - 20-60 miles, depending on which version you have and the outside temperature.  Once the battery runs out, the gas motor kicks on, and you can drive it across the country on gas.  Or, more commonly, make it home without having to find somewhere to charge.

But, on the flip side, it uses a far smaller battery pack than pure battery electrics - and it makes far better use of that pack!

BEV, PHEV, Hybrid, ICE... Oh My!
If you're familiar with electric vehicles, hybrids, and such, you can just skip this section.

If not, I'll explain a few of the various terms in common use you might run across, and what they mean.

We'll start with what everyone is familiar with: ICE.  That means "Internal Combustion Engine."  It refers to pretty much every vehicle that doesn't have a battery pack for propulsion (a "traction battery").  The phrase "Getting ICE'd" does not mean getting killed, in the context of electric vehicles.  It means someone with a non-electric vehicle parking in a charging station.  Don't do that.

Presumably, if you're the type of person who thinks a steam car is genuinely cool, you might hear the term ECE - External Combustion Engine.  As someone who thinks steam cars are awesome and yet doesn't own one, well... I've not actually run across this term.  But you might!

A "Hybrid" is a car that uses both a gasoline engine and a battery pack for propulsion - and doesn't allow you a way to recharge that pack (from the factory - I know people have added external charges to some of them).  The Honda Insight and Toyota Prius are the most commonly seen versions of this sort of vehicle.  When you decelerate, the car can recover the kinetic energy into a battery pack, and can use that energy to accelerate away from a stoplight.  It improves fuel economy, and the Prius, in particular, uses some creative valve timing on the gasoline engine to improve efficiency more, at the cost of power production.  A typical hybrid has a battery pack in the 1kWh range.  It's not designed to propel the car down the road for long, just to store braking energy and use it for acceleration (though some will allow use for a bit of low speed driving).



Beyond that, you have PHEVs - Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicles.  The Volt sits in this category, as do things like the BMW i3 with the range extender, the Chrysler Pacifica minivan, the Prius Prime, and scattered other vehicles.  This is similar to a hybrid, except that it has a far larger battery pack - and, importantly, a charge port.  Most PHEVs have a battery pack in the 10-15kWh range, which means they can drive 30-50 miles on battery.  Beyond that, there's a gasoline engine that kicks in and allows you to drive until the gas tank is empty.  Details vary wildly - the BMW i3 has a tiny little peanut gas tank and a scooter engine for the range extender.  The Gen 1 Volt has a smaller gasoline engine than the electric motor, which means mountains can be tricky (if you don't use "mountain mode" for hard climbs).  The Gen 2 Volt has a large enough gas engine to run the whole vehicle on gas.  The plug in Prius is similar.  And, for what it's worth, I'd consider electric bikes to fit in here as well - you can still ride with the pedals if the battery pack is drained!

Finally, at the far end, you have BEVs - Battery Electric Vehicles, or just EVs.  There's no gas motor anywhere in these cars.  Just a large battery pack, an electric motor, and... well, that's it.  If you're out of battery pack charge, push.  Or hope you're on a mountain top and can use regenerative braking on the way down.  This includes all the Teslas, the Nissan Leaf, the Chevy Bolt, and quite a few others.

Average Daily Driving Distances
At this point, I'm going to delve off into the weeds of statistics - and if your first thought isn't "How to lie and cheat with..." - well, let's just say that most statistics are calculated for a purpose.

Here, I'm going to quote an AAA study - "On average, Americans drive 29.2 miles per day, making two trips with an average total duration of 46 minutes."  This is, of course, an average, and averages are mostly worthless, but it scopes the problem somewhat.  The Office of Highway Policy Information has some data from 2009 (a bit dated, but still useful) that shows trip mileage and total miles driven by trip length.

While the vast majority of trips (by trip start count) are short, if you look at the mileage by trip length, the total mileage pie is more evenly split.  This makes sense - longer trips, sort of by definition, chew up more miles than shorter trips!

Also, you should be horrified that 10% of car trips are less than 1 mile.  Walk!  Bike!





But the reality is that long distance driving is the minority of trips for most people.  People still make long trips (greater than 50 miles is 3% of trip starts), and it's a use case that has to be handled, but it's not the typical daily trip for most people.

The "common case" is a short trip (less than 20 miles) - and the Volt handles those perfectly on electric.

Battery Packs, Embodied Energy, and Longevity
There is no battery fairy that waves a magic wand and blinks batteries into existence.  Batteries require raw materials and quite a bit of energy to produce, and those have to come from somewhere.  Lithium batteries, in particular, take a lot of energy to produce, and battery production is still quite limited globally (compared to global energy use, or even transportation energy use).  This means we should be using batteries as efficiently as possible (while production constrained - and, I'd argue, for the long term as well to improve resource utilization) - and long range BEVs don't do that at all.

If you assume that people want one car to cover all their needs (from driving to the store next door, apparently, to driving across the country), that car needs a long useful range.  For a gas powered car, this is no problem - we have a network of liquid fuel stations to refill from.  For a battery powered car, making this work requires a rather large battery pack, and a network of fast charging stations.  Tesla covers this use case decently (depending on where you want to go), but it means their cars have far more battery than is needed for most daily trips.  A 100kWh Tesla can drive over 300 miles on a charge.  When average daily driving trips are only 30 miles, this means the car has 10x the battery required for regular daily trips.  I did some math a few years ago and estimated that the energy to produce a Tesla battery (before you ever use it) would power about a lifetime of electric bike use (https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2015/11/how-far-can-you-ride-electric-bike-on.html).  The numbers are almost certainly better now, but there's still a lot of energy that goes into building battery packs that don't get heavily utilized.

Another concern is battery longevity.  Cell phone batteries die inside a few years - why don't car batteries do the same?  With a few exceptions (the Leaf's air cooled pack), EVs do a great job of managing their battery pack.  They keep them cool in the summer, warm in the winter, and don't charge them fully.  Not fully charging a cell really helps improve the longevity, and the data from most (not-Leaf) EVs shows that range loss just isn't that large a problem.

But what happens if you pick a far less battery intensive solution?  That's what Chevy did, and it works really, really well!

Smaller Packs With a Backup
What Chevy has done in the Volt is to use a smaller pack (16kWh in the Gen 1), take good care of it, and use the middle 85% or so.  The Volt pack is never fully charged according to the cell chemistry.  It doesn't charge past 384V for the 96S pack, or 4.00 V/cell.  You can pull 10-11kWh out of the Gen 1 pack before it's "empty" according to the car, but there's still a few kWh left at the bottom.  The Volt uses this capacity to help with acceleration, to allow the engine to shut down at stoplights, and generally acts like a standard hybrid, even with "zero" battery range left.



If you do the math, the cells that would go into a single 100kWh Tesla can build over 5 Volt packs.  Those packs can be run conservatively for an incredibly long life, and those cells will offset far, far more gasoline use in 5 Volt-type vehicles than they would in a single long range EV.

Yes, you run out of battery range more regularly, but since there's a gas engine that kicks in, it just doesn't matter.  The transition in the Volt is seamless, and if it weren't for the dashboard showing that the mode had switched, I wouldn't know most of the time.

If you assume 5 Volts can do 30 miles a day on battery, that's 150 miles of electric range from those cars - every single day.  Putting them all in one car (as you would with a long range BEV) would only replace a small fraction of that gas use (for most people).  They're just carrying the cells for those occasional long distance drives that the Volt uses gas for.

Plus, with a normal EV, people never run the pack to empty.  The car would stop moving if you do that.  With the Volt?  Running it "to empty" is just a normal part of operation, and the motor takes over to get you home.  So you can regularly use that 10kWh of capacity and not worry about range - there is no concept of range anxiety.

"Empty" (no EV range remaining) works out to around 329V for the pack - or about 3.4V/cell.  There's a bit of capacity left that the pack might use for various reasons, but the Volt really is gentle on the cells.  A normal lithium cycle would be 4.2V fully charged to about 2.5V empty (or 3.0V if you care about longevity at least a tiny bit).  The Volt cycles the cells from 4.0V to 3.4V - and that's squarely in the middle of their range, so they're not stressed at either end.  It's an insanely conservative solution, but the pack longevity isn't a problem at all!  Plus, the pack is thermally managed.  Even on a 95F day, the pack is 78F when getting home.  It's heated in the winter, cooled in the summer, and doesn't see extreme temperatures.  The car will use energy to heat/cool the pack when plugged in, so keeping the car plugged in whenever possible helps longevity as well.



Numbers: A Year of Efficiency
As much as it might surprise people, I'm not keeping detailed statistics on the Volt.  I don't like cloud services, so I'm not using the OnStar service (which is going away soon anyway - the Volt's cell modem only talks to towers that are getting shut down), and I haven't bothered to put local logging in.  It's mostly my wife's car, and knowing detailed numbers doesn't really change anything - it's going to operate how it operates, and I'm not about to ask her to do things like turn the heat off (with kids in the back) to save a nickel in fuel on a trip.

We got the Volt to cover our common case trips on battery.  They're typically 20-30 miles a day, round trip, into one of the nearby towns.  We might do this multiple times on some days, but frequently it's one major trip.  This is mostly on 45-55mph rural roads in a grid.

We've found that the Volt gets a pretty reliable 35 miles of battery range in the warmer weather.  The air conditioning doesn't really impact the range a noticeable amount for our driving.  However, in the winter, the battery range is far worse - sometimes as low as 20 miles.  The whole car gets far less efficient in the winter (gas cars do as well, you just don't typically notice), and the car will use a ton of energy to heat both the car and the battery pack.  If you've been driving long enough, things warm up, but that takes a lot of energy - and so the gas motor turns a lot more in the winter.

Of course, you can do better in certain conditions.  If you're, say, following a bunch of antique cars around at 30-35mph, without HVAC, and there's a bit of a downgrade at the start of the trip, my personal best in a Gen 1 Volt is 53.3 miles on battery.



If it's cold enough, the Volt will run the gas engine for cabin heat.  The car will get some electrical energy out of this, but mostly, the goal is hot coolant to cycle to the heater core.  There are hacks to bypass this behavior, but for our driving distances, we'll use the engine at some point on a town trip in the winter, so I haven't bothered bypassing it.

On battery, the Volt will get 2-3.5 mi/kWh - you can get it slightly higher, but not by much (and it typically involves descending terrain).  On the gas motor, fuel economy, warmed up, on the highway... is about 33mpg.  I know it's rated higher, but this is what we get on standard E10 premium with a warmed up engine, doing 75mph (in other words, refueling during a highway run).  Gas miles are consistently in the 30-35mpg range for any length travel, though they're worse in the winter when the engine block is cold.



It's not great - but it's also not terrible for a good sized four door car loaded down with four people and luggage, running on pure gas.  Yeah, a Prius will do better - but running purely on gas is not at all the intended use case for a Volt!

More typically, we see 300-400 miles per gallon of gas used (in the warmer weather).  The gas is used for days with multiple trips into town that exceed our charging capability, and for longer round trips (some of the places we go on occasion are 50-60 miles around - that's a gas day).  Even on the longer trips, though, it's rare to drop below 70-80 miles per gallon of gas used - the 35 miles on electric really help bring the total up.



Charging: Yeah, 120V is Fine!
All of these numbers above?  They're charging on 120V.  It takes us 9-10 hours to charge the car from empty, and that means that mid-day charging almost never makes up the total used.  If the car makes an early morning trip, it might be charged by the afternoon, but typically?  Our evening trips start out half-charged.  Sometimes I can top off in town, usually not.

I'll eventually add 240V charging to the property, but for nearly the last year, we've charged on 120V - and it still works fine.  Even on nights when the car comes back late, it's still charged by the morning.  If I had 240V charging, the car would be charged from empty in a hair over 3 hours - which would mean our evening trips were always starting with full battery.  That would offset a good bit of our gas use - especially in the winter, when the battery spends a lot of energy producing heat.

One downside of 120V charging is that the preheat mode (when you suggest to the car that it might want to warm up with grid power) doesn't really save much energy - most of the energy for heating the systems comes from the battery, and though the car can use 5kW heating, it only gets 1.4kW from the wall.  A 240V charger will help a lot on that front.

Volting About the Mountains: Antique Car Meets
I've talked about antique cars in the past (https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2017/09/driving-1927-willys-knight.html).  This year, we went to a meet, but took the Volt.  It's not antique, but it is well suited to hauling a 1 year old boy around - several experiments demonstrated that he wasn't able to sit by himself in the back of an older car, and that he wasn't at all happy with his car seat back there.  We'll try again for an old car next year - but this year, I got a chance to run around some back roads and mountains around Pendleton with the Volt.  It's the first time I've had a chance to really play around with the car in the mountains and on twisty roads - and it's an awful lot of fun!

One of the things you might run into (that drives some Volt owners nuts) is that the Volt's accounting of power to battery vs gas motor can feel a bit inaccurate at times.  The car is either in battery mode or gas engine mode - and it won't swap back from the gas mode until the battery is sufficiently charged.  Even if you charge for an hour or so on 120V during a trip, the car will still consider things in gas mode - even as it runs off the stored charge.

For this particular day, we started off by heading up a winding mountain road, then driving around up on top.  The battery range is fairly poor because it was a hard climb up - but I was able to charge up on top.  Even though the car never switched back from gas mode to electric mode, I got an extra kWh shown in the battery power used statistic.  Then, coming down the mountain, I was able to regenerate about 2kWh into the pack (I had to check with a separate monitoring device - the car won't show this), and run around at the bottom of the mountain purely on electrons - even in "gas" mode.

This worked out to a gas "miles per gallon" of 64mpg - even though the car gets nowhere near this in reality.  It's just a quirk of how the accounting system keeps track of things.  Again, some people get annoyed by this, and I just don't care, because it's busy not using gas (and I'm not really keeping track of the statistics anyway).  For normal driving, it's quite reasonable.



I've driven plenty of vehicles in the mountains - cars, motorcycles... well, mostly motorcycles.  But they all are a lot of work to drive.  Lots of shifting, braking, etc, and with cars, there's often some excitement as you go around corners.

The Volt is actually really boring in the mountains - but in a good way.  If you put it in "L" mode, it's possible to single pedal drive the car for the most part.  All the way off the gas is pretty aggressive deceleration, and otherwise it works as normal.  You can just play with one pedal and zip around with the fury of electric torque (at low speed - the car is somewhat gutless at higher speeds).  Plus, with all the weight down low from the battery, the car simply doesn't exhibit much body roll.  It just corners.

Coming down mountain grades is also fun.  Instead of having to worry about downshifting, maintaining one's brake temperatures, and the other (well, admittedly fun) aspects of mountain grades, I was just putting it in L, setting cruise control, and heading on down.  Regen more than covered the energy from gravity, and stored it away for later use!

Reasons Not to Buy a Volt
I've been talking up the Volt for a while - and I really do think it's a great car, for almost everyone.  But there are several use cases where it's simply not a good option.

The first is if you can never charge it (or can only rarely charge it).  Yes, it'll behave like a hybrid and get tolerable fuel economy - but if you don't have a regular place to charge (at home or at work), you'll just burn more gas than a hybrid designed for that operating mode.  A Prius manages north of 50mpg without being charged, and the Volt almost certainly won't get past 40.  You won't damage the car not charging it - but it's really not how it's designed to be operated, and you'll miss the best parts of it.

The other use case it's not ideal for is really high daily miles.  If you're a traveling salesman and do long days, the Volt isn't a great option.  For long highway miles, you're (again) better with a Prius type hybrid.  Or, if you're doing something on major highways, a long range pure battery electric might make sense.  They're quite a bit cheaper to run, and DC fast charging (both Tesla and otherwise) is common enough that you can make most trips without too many detours.

Reasons to Buy a Volt
However: For the rest of us who do regular daily trips in the sub-30 mile range (if you're a bit over, get a Gen 2) and take the occasional longer trip - you really should consider a Volt.

It covers the common case on cheap electricity (if you live in CA with $0.25/kWh power, sorry - charge at night), and you can still drive across the country with the current gasoline-based infrastructure.  It's two cars in one - an EV commuter, and a gas powered long range traveling vehicle.  No, it's not quite as efficient as other long range options, but if long trips are a fraction of your total driving, the blend works out very, very well.

You can find a used Gen 1 for $8k-$10k these days, and a Gen 2 should be down around $15k for a reasonable one.  Shop around, of course, but they're not that expensive - and they are a lot cheaper to run than a gas car, with much less uncertainty in fuel costs.

The long term reliability is pretty solid (look for a 2013 or later to avoid some stator bearing issues that require a bit of work to fix around 100k miles), and pack degradation is simply not a concern on these cars.  The battery is never fully charged, it's very well thermally managed, and there's buffer on either side to stretch into if needed.  Even if you do lose a bit of battery range, all it does is slightly increase the gas use - it doesn't make the car unusable for your driving, like losing range on a pure EV would.

PS: Install a Cabin Air Filter
A dirty little secret of the Gen 1 Volts (and possibly the Gen 2s - not sure, but I can't help with those) is that they didn't come from the factory with a cabin air filter.  Supposedly it helps reduce the energy required for the climate control, but the difference is tiny.  Put a cabin air filter in - and I'd suggest getting one that has the activated charcoal or carbon to help absorb smells.  There are cases where the Volt can burn off some road debris if the engine hasn't run in a while, and it's got an odor.  Or, say, if you're following a line of old cars that smoke under certain conditions, one might have been nice.

Adding a cabin air filter is quite easy - the access is through the glove box.  You can find videos on the usual suspects, or just follow this quick guide.

With all the stuff out of the glove box, there should be a rubber mat on the bottom.  Remove it.



Towards the top of the rear, there's a little finger grip - you can look for it, or just feel for it.  Pull it.  The rear and bottom of the glovebox now lift out.



You'll now see this - the cover for the air filter.  Why does one go through the glove box for the air filter?  I have no idea, but it's actually less annoying than on a lot of other vehicles.

There are two clasps on the side and one on the top.  Some guides suggest using a small screwdriver to pop them, but they're not exactly stiff - you should be able to pop it by hand unless you have huge hands.  Pop the top one first, then gently work the sides out, and you should see either an air filter or a huge gap!



Replace the filter (arrow pointing down, according to legend - I didn't verify airflow direction), close things back up, and enjoy the somewhat quieter and, hopefully, somewhat less smelly air!



Why a Volt?  It Fits Our Needs.
I'd originally planned on getting a used Leaf out of Seattle or Portland and keeping the Mazda 3 we had.  However, paying attention to driving miles indicated that we'd be putting quite a few miles on the Mazda 3 - just days where things wouldn't fit in the Leaf's range profile (an older Leaf, not the new 200+ mile ones - those are expensive).  Even with fast charging, the total lack of useful charging infrastructure out here just limits what moderate range EVs can do.  We would either be putting a ton of miles on the truck (which rapidly eats up the savings of an EV), or we'd have to keep another car around.

A long range BEV would work - but they're quite expensive.  One annoyance of mine is that no sales person around here bothers asking how much one pays in federal taxes before asserting that the actual cost is $7500 less than the actual price - and I don't know many people paying $7500/yr in federal income tax out here.  Yes, you can create "taxable events" with IRA conversion and the like (if your finances line up to let you do that), but don't tell me a $40k car is $32,500 without asking questions first, because it's not.

My views on Teslas haven't changed over the past few years.  They're not a car I can work on.  A car I own free and clear, that I can't access the full diagnostics on, is simply not something I'll consider.  Tesla could change this by opening up their service software and giving owners the ability to get at the diagnostics, but until they do that?  Hard pass, sorry.

Or... we could get something that covers the common case on electric (most of our miles), still can do a long trip on gas (rare, but happens often enough that it's worth considering), and get the Volt.



I can get parts, I can work on it, and I can (with the right hardware) access the dealer diagnostic interfaces.  I can even flash the firmware on it myself, as the software to talk to the car is available for subscription access.  It's not quite as open as I'd like, but for our needs?  It's the best option out there.

Consider one!

BuddyXL

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2019, 12:52:51 PM »
Pretty cool!  As a car guy, I have always wondered how easy it is to get repair and tech info on them like I can for all my other cars.  I won't own something unless I can work on it (even the firmware) so you answered my question in your post.

Just checked and looks some some used ones in my area go for around $12-15k.  Thats not bad

Thanks for the informative post

Syonyk

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2019, 01:27:24 PM »
Pretty cool!  As a car guy, I have always wondered how easy it is to get repair and tech info on them like I can for all my other cars.  I won't own something unless I can work on it (even the firmware) so you answered my question in your post.

You can get subscription access to the software and service manuals - though if you're just reading information, one might find alternatives.

You do need an adapter to talk to the high speed busses - around $120 for a USB adapter, which is annoying, but hardly fatal for working on it.

I'll probably doing a post in another month or two about talking to the car with the appropriate software.

Just Joe

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2019, 02:37:47 PM »
I test drove a Volt several years back and it was really nice.

Syonyk

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2019, 02:43:08 PM »
Thanks for the in-depth write-up.

No problem - I try to do greatly in depth stuff with my blog, because I can't find detailed reviews of most of the stuff I work with.

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I’ve heard the Volt has minimal ground clearance (like 2 inches less than my current subcompact). When you were in the mountains, did you drive on gravel service roads? Or roads with potholes? Any concerns with that sort of driving? Also curious about snow/ice, although I can usually avoid driving in those conditions.

Yeah, ground clearance isn't the Volt's strong suit.  For us, that's not a real issue - we have a truck (F350, CCLB, 4x4) that covers anything the Volt can't, which is fairly rare.  The bulk of the truck miles are hauling or towing - right now, I've got most of a ton of concrete and rebar in the back of it and about 80 feet of 2x4 to restock my local supplies (I ran out of 2x4s - that's supposed to be impossible).  If we're heading into the mountains on Jeep trails, we'll take the truck or borrow a Jeep (my inlaws have quite a few older ones laying around, and we usually go out with them to those areas).

That said, it's not a low rider.  A graded gravel road is perfectly fine, a beat up old state highway is fine, just watch for rocks and (big) potholes.  You'll hit the front air dam on an awful lot in regular driving, but it's flexible and more or less designed to do exactly that (flex out of the way, then return for aerodynamic reasons).  There's a shorter one available, but once you get over hearing it scrape every now and then, the stock one is fine.

I wouldn't take it on anything with any significant ruts - that's going to get you stuck sooner rather than later, but most small cars would have the same problem.  The Volt just might get stuck a bit earlier.  It's a street car.

Winter wasn't a big deal either, though we don't get massive amounts of snow most years.  We've had it one winter, and my wife was able to get it out of the driveway without trouble (a 1/4 mile uphill gravel run to the street).  I doubt it would go through more than a few inches, even with snow tires, though (see ground clearance).  Again, not something we particularly care too much about, because the truck can get through just about anything if needed.  We do try to stock up on food and such in the winter so trips into town are optional if needed for a couple days.

Quote
I don’t want to have to maintain a gas engine, but given our current driving patterns (maybe one third 80+ mile trips and two thirds < 10 mile trips) and unwillingness to spring for a used Bolt (for now), a Volt seems like a good fit.

The gas engine maintenance is less than generally assumed, because it's not turning most of the time.  A 2nd gen would probably handle your needs very well, and a 1st gen would still use a lot less gas than most other options.  Just play with some numbers - it's a decent highway car, but not the most efficient for very long trips without charging.

ChpBstrd

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2019, 03:18:26 PM »
Interesting!

I did an Edmunds.com total cost of ownership comparison of the 2014 Volt vs. 2014 Camry 4cyl and to my surprise the Volt was estimated to be $4304 cheaper to operate for 5 years in my zip code. Compared to a 2014 Civic LX the cost was almost exactly the same.

Syonyk

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2019, 03:32:29 PM »
I would be very careful of "generic" TCO calculators with something like the Volt.

It's highly, highly dependent on your particular driving.

For 12k miles/yr (~33 mi/day), if you drive it entirely on $3.25 gas (call it 33mpg), it's $1180/yr in fuel costs.

For the same, on $0.10/kWh electric (3mi/kWh), it's $400/yr in electric costs.

It's a factor of 3 difference in operating costs between the two extremes, and a generic calculator is unlikely to figure out your particular driving/charging behavior.

minnie1928

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2019, 09:24:06 PM »
I've had my Volt for 3 years and love it!  98% of my driving is battery and I've discovered how annoying it is to have to need to go to a gas station!

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2019, 10:37:05 PM »
Thanks for this writeup!   My own car is nearing the end of its lifespan and I've been trying to learn about good choices for a new-to-me car.   This is looking interesting if I can find the right price!

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2019, 10:44:30 PM »
...and I've discovered how annoying it is to have to need to go to a gas station!

Am I the only person on the planet who genuinely doesn't mind gas stations?  There are some on my way to places that I'll stop at even if I don't need gas to grab a bag of chips or a six pack or something.  Maybe I've just been lucky literally my whole life, but the dirty, smelly gas stations I hear about people not missing are a true rarity in my life.

Even with the Volt, I still get gas often enough for other vehicles (ever 180-200km for the Ural, every month or two for the truck) that I'm there often enough.

Thanks for this writeup!   My own car is nearing the end of its lifespan and I've been trying to learn about good choices for a new-to-me car.   This is looking interesting if I can find the right price!

If you have even 120V charging, it probably is the right choice. ;)

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2019, 04:52:04 AM »
Yes, Thanks for the lesson on all the different types I have learned a lot. Admittedly I was one of those that when all the craze started with electric cars I thought it was to be a fad but its proven me wrong and seems its for sure going to be a big part of the future. Definitely going to look more into it the next time I am in the market for a car.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2019, 07:12:40 AM »
I didn't know the Volt was a plug-in hybrid.  It was marketed as an "Electric".

Syonyk

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2019, 08:48:48 AM »
Yes, Thanks for the lesson on all the different types I have learned a lot. Admittedly I was one of those that when all the craze started with electric cars I thought it was to be a fad but its proven me wrong and seems its for sure going to be a big part of the future. Definitely going to look more into it the next time I am in the market for a car.

They're a good bit cheaper to run than a gas car, and, much as it pains me to say (I do like manual transmissions), they're a good bit of fun to drive.  Lots of torque right off the line where it's useful, though if you're not careful they can munch tires (a friend's Model X chewed up a set of tires in 10k miles - his per-mile tire cost was higher than my fuel cost in the Mazda 3).

Plus they can run on a wider variety of energy sources, including locally produced electrons.  For us, it's partly a resilience move - if fuel becomes expensive or hard to get, the Volt can still run around (I could charge it on my office system if I needed to for most of the year), but we're not totally reliant on the power grid for transportation either.

I didn't know the Volt was a plug-in hybrid.  It was marketed as an "Electric".

Volt, or Bolt?

The Bolt is a pure electric.  The Volt isn't, though it wouldn't surprise me that it was marketed as one.  It could be a plug in hybrid, could be a range extended electric, could be some other name or two that I'm sure has been used... it's a hard car to market and sell, because it's weird.  Even though it's awesome.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2019, 10:20:01 AM »
The low ground clearance turned me off at first.  Our driveway is long and shitty (badly maintained gravel, loads of potholes, very uneven at points, takes about 4-5 minutes to go the full 3/4 mile).  Our Kia with 6.5 inches of ground clearance is mostly fine, but our Volvo with "6.5 inches" of ground clearance struggles pretty hard since its front suspension is pretty much shot (front of the car is definitely lower than it should be) likely from from driving on said long shitty driveway.

But next year we're probably moving, and the area we're considering has shorter driveways, and paved ones at that.  Anything other than a Volt is honestly a pretty hard sell at this point.  It's the car tons of people should want/have but don't have a clue, since like you said, it's a hard car to sell since it's so weird.  I still can't believe GM is discontinuing it.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2019, 02:44:06 PM »
Am I the only person on the planet who genuinely doesn't mind gas stations?  There are some on my way to places that I'll stop at even if I don't need gas to grab a bag of chips or a six pack or something.  Maybe I've just been lucky literally my whole life, but the dirty, smelly gas stations I hear about people not missing are a true rarity in my life.

Even with the Volt, I still get gas often enough for other vehicles (ever 180-200km for the Ural, every month or two for the truck) that I'm there often enough.

Pay at the pump was my favorite new feature b/c I could fill up and not go inside. I look forward to my first EV so I can charge at home and my first long range EV so I can travel a little and still not visit a gas station.

Syonyk

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2019, 05:34:29 PM »
The low ground clearance turned me off at first.  Our driveway is long and shitty (badly maintained gravel, loads of potholes, very uneven at points, takes about 4-5 minutes to go the full 3/4 mile).  Our Kia with 6.5 inches of ground clearance is mostly fine, but our Volvo with "6.5 inches" of ground clearance struggles pretty hard since its front suspension is pretty much shot (front of the car is definitely lower than it should be) likely from from driving on said long shitty driveway.

I live on a moderately long gravel driveway (1/8 mile).  If it's in bad shape, I just get put the blade on the tractor and fix it.

But, yeah, ground clearance does suck.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2019, 05:38:57 PM »
Thanks for the writeup... saw it on your blog but I really appreciate it being cross posted here two.

One aspect I hope you can expound upon.  You mention how energy intensive it is to produce large battery packs for pure EV cars like the leaf or tesla.  I'm assuming much/most of that is mining?  Or are there other factors dictating how much energy goes into producing these large batteries?

Syonyk

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2019, 06:50:51 PM »
One aspect I hope you can expound upon.  You mention how energy intensive it is to produce large battery packs for pure EV cars like the leaf or tesla.  I'm assuming much/most of that is mining?  Or are there other factors dictating how much energy goes into producing these large batteries?

I haven't dug into exactly how much of it is mining vs other aspects of production, but you can find pretty solid writeups of energy distribution in battery cell production.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316884465_Manufacturing_energy_analysis_of_lithium_ion_battery_pack_for_electric_vehicles is one source I've skimmed in the past (from 2017):

Quote
Lithium ion batteries (LIB) are widely used to power electric vehicles. Here we report a comprehensive manufacturing energy analysis of the popular LMO-graphite LIB pack used on Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt. A 24 kWh battery pack with 192 prismatic cells is analysed at each manufacturing process from mixing, coating, calendaring, notching till final cutting and assembly, with data collected and modelled from real industrial processes. It is found that 29.9 GJ of energy is embedded in the battery materials, 58.7 GJ energy consumed in the battery cell production, and 0.3 GJ energy for the final battery pack assembly

That works out to 3.7GJ/kWh of pack - so ~1MWh per kWh of battery pack produced, or 1kWh per Wh.  That's actually significantly worse than some numbers I messed with in 2015 (https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2015/11/how-far-can-you-ride-electric-bike-on.html) that were around 380Wh per Wh of pack.

However, that paper was based on actually datalogging the energy used in production for at least some parts, so...

It does depend, to some extent, on exactly how the energy is produced, but it still takes an insane amount of energy to produce a battery pack.

Using those numbers, the energy required to produce the 16kWh Volt pack (call it 16MWh) will drive the Volt 48,000 miles on battery.  The energy required to make a 100kWh Tesla pack would drive the Tesla ~300,000 miles.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2019, 07:15:56 PM »
I've always considered the Volt to be the best "EV" out there for most people, by far.  I never even thought about all of the wasted battery with long range BEV's and how that relates.  Interesting insight.  Makes total sense that we are better off probably using much, much smaller batteries like the Volt does at this time.

If I wasn't going to take such a massive bath on my wifes car, we would probably look at a Volt as our second car.  Crazy cheap used, too.  It's great.  I'd almost think it should be as popular as the used Leafs are with forum members!  Similar pricing, much more utility.

I'm surprised how inefficient the Volt seems to be on battery, though.  We get easily 4+ miles per kwh on the Leaf.  So to be getting 2 - 3 is a massive efficiency difference.  Is that simply due to the weight?  Poor regen?  What do you think?

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2019, 07:50:14 PM »
I never even thought about all of the wasted battery with long range BEV's and how that relates.  Interesting insight.  Makes total sense that we are better off probably using much, much smaller batteries like the Volt does at this time.

Almost certainly, especially if you look at lifecycle energy costs, but nobody does that, and people are horrified of having to "maintain the gas engine too."  Even though, maintenance-wise, it's basically like a Prius with a really big, long lived battery bank - except better, because the gas engine doesn't run nearly as much.

Quote
I'd almost think it should be as popular as the used Leafs are with forum members!  Similar pricing, much more utility.

Nobody actually likes them, it seems.  I'm very much in the minority.  The long range pure EV people look smugly over their frunk and equate a Volt with a large diesel pickup in terms of "still using gas," and seem to think the batteries in their Tesla came out of thin air and unicorn farts.  The people with gas cars don't understand the advantage of having every morning, 35 miles (or more) of battery range.  And the short range EV people appear to not take any long trips unless they're flying, it seems.

I've decided it's a very nice optimum for transportation, but rarely do my conclusions actually match what the rest of the world seems to think.  But I still think the Volt plus a truck is a pretty sweet combo (I do ride motorcycles for solo transport, if the weather is ridable - which, with three wheels, is most of the year).  But I also have the space for this sort of stuff.

Quote
I'm surprised how inefficient the Volt seems to be on battery, though.  We get easily 4+ miles per kwh on the Leaf.  So to be getting 2 - 3 is a massive efficiency difference.  Is that simply due to the weight?  Poor regen?  What do you think?

How fast are you going with the Leaf?  Most of our driving is at 55mph on rural roads, and I'm pretty sure the tires the dealer put on before we got it aren't low rolling resistance.  In the summer, with light HVAC, I can get 4 no problem.  In the winter, with heavy heat, it's closer to 2 - it's using the battery to both heat the cabin and to heat the battery pack so it can take regen energy.  Since I don't have full data logging on it, I don't actually know the exact number, so I ballpark it at 3.  It's not the most efficient EV on the planet.  The Leaf... basically ignores the battery pack, thermally, and you see that in the awful longevity on the earlier Leafs.  They let it heat soak, charge it when cold, and generally do all sorts of things that are truly bad for battery lifespan - and it shows.  After a longer drive in 95-100F ambient temperatures on the highway, the battery will be around 78F.  In the winter, it ends the trip an awful lot warmer than it started, even if I'm not using cabin heat.  But that comes out in pack longevity, and the Volt packs are holding up exceptionally well.

Also, the Volt doesn't look like a Nissan Versa and a frog mated. :p

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2019, 08:37:59 PM »
I've had a 2013 Volt for 4 years now and I love it, but repairs are the car's Achilles heel and anybody thinking of getting this car should be aware of it.

I've had 2 major repairs to the car. The first was because a rock punctured one of the radiators (the volt has 3). Read up on the Gen 1 volts and you'll see this is a very common issue due to the low ground clearance and wide gaps around the air intake. $2,000 bill to replace it. The second issue was a complete loss of power while driving. It took the dealership 10 weeks to diagnose that issue with the help of GM tech support. It turned out to be a leaky seal in the transmission letting coolant into the traction motor, causing a loss of isolation in the motor. They ended up replacing the traction motor, and transmission (gearbox). Thankfully this was covered under the power train warranty (8 year, 100,000 mile). The scary part is that the car had 95,xxx miles at the time of the incident. If that transmission seal had leaked just a little bit slower I would have gone out of warranty before seeing any issue. The dealership charged GM $7,000 for that fix, if I had had to pay it it would have been over $10k, which is more than the car is worth. No issues since then. I'm still driving the car, but I feel like it is a risk, like any day I could have another repair bill large enough that I just surrender the car rather than paying to fix it.

No mechanic other than a Voltec certified tech at a GM dealership will touch a Volt, and not every dealership had a volt-tech. So be aware that any issue will require paying a dealer to fix it, and you may have to travel farther than you think to find someone qualified to fix it. When I had the loss of power in my car, I had to have it towed 45 miles to get it worked on. Any work having to do with the powertrain required specialized tools, so there is a limited amount you can do yourself. I've changed brake pads on my Volt but that's about as far as I'd go, and I consider myself a middling-level shadetree mechanic.

BicycleB

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2019, 08:48:30 PM »
Nice write-up!!

Ok, the Volt goes back on my "Keep learning about in case I ever buy another car" list.

I'd like to get one for maybe 6k or 8k... have to wait a while, I guess.

ETA: @bigdoug03, helpful comments. Thanks for posting! Keeping this in mind.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 09:00:26 PM by BicycleB »

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2019, 08:55:41 PM »
Awesome write up, I bought a gen 2 volt about 6 months ago, I haven't been keeping detailed records, but I have not had to do an oil change yet, and only buy about 1 tank of gas a month. It charges overnight on 120V, so no need to install an extra outlet in the garage. It's by far the best car I have ever owned, I was shocked when they discontinued it.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2019, 10:04:34 PM »
Do you happen to know the error codes yours threw?

I am aware of the potential for expensive repairs, but with the fuel savings, even a $5k repair puts me... about back to where I would have been with a gas car - and the failures are mostly one-offs.  The 2011/2012 stator bearing is more common, but also seems to depend on how the car is driven.

So best case, I save a lot of money.  Worst case, I'm about where I would have been with an efficient gasser.  And, in any case, it's still a lot cheaper than the purchase price of a long range BEV that would be required to cover the occasional longer days.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2019, 05:38:21 PM »
Good writeup.  I wanted to buy a Volt.

I didn't for a few reasons though.  Two minor reasons that haven't been mentioned are that the Volt isn't a hatchback, and you can't easily sleep in it.  I like hatchbacks or wagons for moving big stuff.  And since it isn't a hatchback and doesn't have lay-flat back seats, you can't camp inside it.  The Prius wins for both of those.  Those are esoteric use cases though.  A Volt is a good car.


Edit: The Volt is a hatchback.  And it looks like the Gen 2 has seats that lay flat.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 06:26:58 AM by mtnrider »

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2019, 08:06:24 AM »
Another good option is the Honda Clarity.  At least once it comes down in price on the used market.  It was a car we seriously considered before buying the Leaf.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2019, 09:27:57 AM »
Good writeup.  I wanted to buy a Volt.

I didn't for a few reasons though.  Two minor reasons that haven't been mentioned are that the Volt isn't a hatchback, and you can't easily sleep in it.  I like hatchbacks or wagons for moving big stuff.  And since it isn't a hatchback and doesn't have lay-flat back seats, you can't camp inside it.  The Prius wins for both of those.  Those are esoteric use cases though.  A Volt is a good car.

What makes it not a hatchback? I would call it a hatchback... and the back seats lie flat if you remove the bottom cushions (they snap in/out)! I haven't tried camping in mine, but I did successfully transport a twin mattress and box spring the other day. There's so much room back there.

SpareChange

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2019, 09:41:33 AM »
I like the idea, but unfortunately I live in an apt with no way to charge, and regularly drive the 200 miles to my aging mother's place. Double whammy. A used Prius will be in high contention the next time I need a car. Are there any other "traditional" hybrid models out there, or has everybody moved on to making Leafs and Volts?

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2019, 10:10:33 AM »
I love the concept of the series hybrid, but I'm struggling when I get to the question "when would I buy this over a Prius?"  As I understand it, the Volt excels only when you plan to drive 30-60ish miles per day, in which case it'll get better gas mileage than the Prius.  Longer than that, and the Prius' gas-powered mileage is significantly better than the Volt's.  And if you're driving well under 30 miles per day (like me), then you're not spending that much on gas any way, so the savings aren't huge there.

Now, if Honda and/or Toyota would get off their duffs and come out with a PHEV minivan, I'd be far more interested--DW makes lots of short trips each day, and that would be the perfect application.

nereo

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2019, 10:15:18 AM »
I like the idea, but unfortunately I live in an apt with no way to charge, and regularly drive the 200 miles to my aging mother's place. Double whammy. A used Prius will be in high contention the next time I need a car. Are there any other "traditional" hybrid models out there, or has everybody moved on to making Leafs and Volts?

The 'traditional' (or non plug-in) hybrid market is chock full of options nowadays, as the new fuel efficiency standards has pushed companies to include vehicels in their fleet which can get much better mpg. These include (but are not limited to) Toyota's Prius, Highlander & Camry, Honda's Insight & Accord, VW's Jetta, Lexus's HS, 300H & 400H, Hyundai's Ioniq, Kia's Niro. 

Note - I'm not endorsing any of the above, but just pointing out that ther'es a bunch of hybrid options beyond the Prius and Volt for those who cannot charge (i.e. no plug ins).

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2019, 10:23:47 AM »
I love the concept of the series hybrid, but I'm struggling when I get to the question "when would I buy this over a Prius?"  As I understand it, the Volt excels only when you plan to drive 30-60ish miles per day, in which case it'll get better gas mileage than the Prius.  Longer than that, and the Prius' gas-powered mileage is significantly better than the Volt's.  And if you're driving well under 30 miles per day (like me), then you're not spending that much on gas any way, so the savings aren't huge there.

I have a different interpretation (and others - feel free to chime in). 
I think the Volt excels when most of your trips are under that 30 mile threshold.  That's when you can operate only/largely on battery and cut your fuel bill to pretty close to zero, and largely avoid the wear and tear on the engine.  Of course, if you already have a Prius it might not be economical to sell that and buy a Volt (though it could... would have to do a cost/benefit).

You are right that if you don't drive much, you don't spend much - regarldess of what vehicle you choose. TO that end I have a coworker who drives a big-ass gas guzzling truck but only ~3k miles per year.  He's not wrong when he says his fuel bill won't change very much by switching to something more fuel efficient.  Even if he went to a prius he'd 'save' something like $20/month at the pump.  Not insignificant but not enough to get him to change.  Of couse there are lots of other reasons it would be a good idea, but I've begrudingly conceeded that his emissions are less than the majority of Prius drivers who also work here but commute 20-30 miles each way.

Syonyk

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2019, 11:14:12 AM »
Are there any other "traditional" hybrid models out there, or has everybody moved on to making Leafs and Volts?

Just about every automaker has a "traditional" hybrid in their lineup now.  They're not hard to find, though I don't know a whole lot about them either.

I love the concept of the series hybrid, but I'm struggling when I get to the question "when would I buy this over a Prius?"  As I understand it, the Volt excels only when you plan to drive 30-60ish miles per day, in which case it'll get better gas mileage than the Prius.  Longer than that, and the Prius' gas-powered mileage is significantly better than the Volt's.  And if you're driving well under 30 miles per day (like me), then you're not spending that much on gas any way, so the savings aren't huge there.

The national average mileage is in the 30-35 miles/day range - which you can do on battery with the Volt for far less than gas costs in a Prius (in most areas - if you have insanely expensive power, do the math yourself).  Even if you're using a bit of gas at the end of the day, it still works out far better than a Prius in terms of actual fuel consumption - because you don't use gas the first 30-40 miles (Gen 1).  It takes about 100 miles for our fuel economy to drop to 55mpg on a trip.

You're right that if you're not driving much, it doesn't matter what you drive.  Living out in the country with regular trips into town, we do put a good number of miles on our vehicles (around 20k/yr for the household, spread across a few different vehicles).

I'm actually working on another blog post that goes into details about operating costs for various vehicle types on some common driving cycles, but the PHEVs do come out ahead.

The other advantage is that you're insulated from gas costs.  If gas goes up to $5/gal with a Prius, your operating costs are 2x when gas is $2.50/gal - with the Volt, we're far better insulated from that, because the bulk of our miles don't change in cost (power costs are quite a bit more stable than gas costs).

Quote
Now, if Honda and/or Toyota would get off their duffs and come out with a PHEV minivan, I'd be far more interested--DW makes lots of short trips each day, and that would be the perfect application.

It's not Honda or Toyota, but the Chrysler Pacifica has a plug in hybrid option: https://www.chrysler.com/pacifica/hybrid.html

And, yes, you're right - a minivan is almost perfect for that use case, because they do tend to make a lot of shorter, in town trips - and are often at home to charge up.  Even on 120V charging, we often get nearly 70 miles of battery range on the Volt in a day.  With a 240V outlet, there are some days that we could get nearly 100 miles of electric range with how trips work (those days are rare, but it's entirely possible to do it).

TheAnonOne

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2019, 12:34:05 PM »
I've been a reasonably vocal advocate of the VOLT on these forums ever since I bought a '2013' model back in 2016.

If you drive anything but the most efficient of ICE cars I am not exactly sure why you wouldn't switch on monetary terms.

-Under 10k
-BASICALLY never buy gas again
-BASICALLY never change oil again
-BASICALLY never replace brakes again

I sold an older car (09) and bought my 2013 volt, it cost me around 5k in difference. Over the past 2-3 years, I already covered that cost in gas alone.... The car will likely 'pay itself off' by the time I get rid of it. Other EVs cannot touch this financially because they are simply too expensive and, as it was mentioned, have quite a bit of wasted battery capacity. I nearly drain the Volt daily.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2019, 12:39:47 PM »
If you drive anything but the most efficient of ICE cars I am not exactly sure why you wouldn't switch on monetary terms.

The reason we ruled it out previously is because we had no ability to charge a Volt (or other plug-in), and because much of our use would be in very cold conditions.  I think Syonyk covered both limitations fairly well in the OP.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2019, 12:45:20 PM »
-BASICALLY never buy gas again

Eh, yeah, just depends on the driving.  I expect our fuel consumption will be up a hair in the fall because the home school coop moved somewhere further away where they could get building space.  We might be up to a gallon a week with that... unless my wife can find charging out.  I'm a lot more aggressive about "charging out" than she is, but I also rarely have two kids with me. ;)

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-BASICALLY never change oil again

With the Volt, it is recommended you change it every 2 years regardless of use (some suggest every year).  You don't get many miles on the oil, but that's actually somewhat hard on oil - the short cycles and condensation mean it doesn't get to boil off contaminants (fuel blowby and water condensation) like a normal engine does.

Plus, modern cars have pretty long oil change intervals anyway.  I'm not sure this is actually that much of a gain over a car with a use-based oil counter.  You certainly don't need to change oil every 3k miles these days.

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-BASICALLY never replace brakes again

Yeah, just remember to actually use them every now and then so they don't seize up from lack of use.

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I sold an older car (09) and bought my 2013 volt, it cost me around 5k in difference. Over the past 2-3 years, I already covered that cost in gas alone.... The car will likely 'pay itself off' by the time I get rid of it. Other EVs cannot touch this financially because they are simply too expensive and, as it was mentioned, have quite a bit of wasted battery capacity. I nearly drain the Volt daily.

Yeah - that's pretty much where we are.  We traded a 2015 Mazda 3 and a bit of cash for the Volt, and I expect the cost savings over the life of the Volt to be significant.  Even with a major ($5k class) repair, it's still about a wash.

EngagedToFIRE

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2019, 01:43:12 PM »
I love the concept of the series hybrid, but I'm struggling when I get to the question "when would I buy this over a Prius?"  As I understand it, the Volt excels only when you plan to drive 30-60ish miles per day, in which case it'll get better gas mileage than the Prius.  Longer than that, and the Prius' gas-powered mileage is significantly better than the Volt's.  And if you're driving well under 30 miles per day (like me), then you're not spending that much on gas any way, so the savings aren't huge there.

Now, if Honda and/or Toyota would get off their duffs and come out with a PHEV minivan, I'd be far more interested--DW makes lots of short trips each day, and that would be the perfect application.

35 miles per day in a Prius is what, about $2 in gas?  Factoring in electric cost (if unable to charge free at work), probably $600 or so per year in savings by driving a Volt.  $10,000+ over a 10 year period.  I'd say that's fairly significant.

TheAnonOne

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2019, 01:51:51 PM »
I love the concept of the series hybrid, but I'm struggling when I get to the question "when would I buy this over a Prius?"  As I understand it, the Volt excels only when you plan to drive 30-60ish miles per day, in which case it'll get better gas mileage than the Prius.  Longer than that, and the Prius' gas-powered mileage is significantly better than the Volt's.  And if you're driving well under 30 miles per day (like me), then you're not spending that much on gas any way, so the savings aren't huge there.

Now, if Honda and/or Toyota would get off their duffs and come out with a PHEV minivan, I'd be far more interested--DW makes lots of short trips each day, and that would be the perfect application.

35 miles per day in a Prius is what, about $2 in gas?  Factoring in electric cost (if unable to charge free at work), probably $600 or so per year in savings by driving a Volt.  $10,000+ over a 10 year period.  I'd say that's fairly significant.

Basically, if you drive 40 miles a day you are in the exact sweet spot OR you drive more but can plug in at various spots. I have had clients let me plug in during work on the regular 120v outlets, family lets me charge when I visit, friends, ect ect ect.

The car basically costs $1->$1.50 to charge from 0-100% and offsets "ABOUT" $5-6 in gasoline for a savings of around $4 per full charge.

It is oddly fun to drive to my families house in the AM, charge up and drive home. Boom $8. Math gets a little funny when your going into the gas tank but our previous car was only getting 25MPG so we don't have the "BUT MY PRIUS" argument. The VOLT isn't a slouch here either, I think it gets around 40MPG, of course, depending on your driving habits.

I will be upgrading to a GEN 2 2016+ volt as soon as I can find a premium interior version for around $15,000 though. Nearly 60 miles on a charge, better all-around features, and just "better" in general.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2019, 01:55:21 PM »
I want to through a side note out here about range.

2013 VOLT is stated for 38 miles but it varies depending on season here in the north.

In the winter it's closer to 25 miles with the heated seats + air vents on max. <- Yes it affects it THAT much. You can offset this by "preconditioning" the car via the button on the key when the car is plugged in.

In the summer the car OUTPERFORMS the stated range and I routinely get >50 miles in a charge with a personal record of over 60 miles.

Just some random info...

nereo

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2019, 02:03:25 PM »
I want to through a side note out here about range.

2013 VOLT is stated for 38 miles but it varies depending on season here in the north.

In the winter it's closer to 25 miles with the heated seats + air vents on max. <- Yes it affects it THAT much. You can offset this by "preconditioning" the car via the button on the key when the car is plugged in.

In the summer the car OUTPERFORMS the stated range and I routinely get >50 miles in a charge with a personal record of over 60 miles.

Just some random info...

How long does it take to "precondition" the car if it's a few degrees below freezing outside?

TheAnonOne

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2019, 02:12:41 PM »
I want to through a side note out here about range.

2013 VOLT is stated for 38 miles but it varies depending on season here in the north.

In the winter it's closer to 25 miles with the heated seats + air vents on max. <- Yes it affects it THAT much. You can offset this by "preconditioning" the car via the button on the key when the car is plugged in.

In the summer the car OUTPERFORMS the stated range and I routinely get >50 miles in a charge with a personal record of over 60 miles.

Just some random info...

How long does it take to "precondition" the car if it's a few degrees below freezing outside?

"Precondition" is basically just "Remote Start" and any amount helps. It will run for a max of around 10 minutes and get the heated seats up to temp, the heater, ect.

You can also set it to actually just "turn on the gas engine" for a bit, which REALLY helps and doesn't burn much gas at all. The car will actually force you to turn on the gasoline engine for heat under something like 15*F occasionally because the engineers deemed this to be more efficient. <- during driving, not precondition.

Keep in mind, while the engine is firing for heat, while driving, in the winter, it is also generating energy for the battery so you can end up in odd situations around 10-14*F where you will go farther before "0" on the battery due to this and frankly end up warmer while it's technically colder outside.

You can fire up the engine at any time if you need to. You can also set the engine assisted heat to happen upwards of 36*F as well if you want. The car is very configurable and generally, the LONGER your drive, the more beneficial engine assisted heat is.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 02:15:20 PM by TheAnonOne »

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2019, 03:47:22 PM »
The national average mileage is in the 30-35 miles/day range - which you can do on battery with the Volt for far less than gas costs in a Prius (in most areas - if you have insanely expensive power, do the math yourself).  Even if you're using a bit of gas at the end of the day, it still works out far better than a Prius in terms of actual fuel consumption - because you don't use gas the first 30-40 miles (Gen 1).  It takes about 100 miles for our fuel economy to drop to 55mpg on a trip.
Fair enough--I was spitballing the "60 miles" number for when the Prius' higher MPG (on gas) overtakes the Volt's.
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The other advantage is that you're insulated from gas costs.  If gas goes up to $5/gal with a Prius, your operating costs are 2x when gas is $2.50/gal - with the Volt, we're far better insulated from that, because the bulk of our miles don't change in cost (power costs are quite a bit more stable than gas costs).
That's a good point, although it seems to me that gas prices have been rather stable the last several years.  Certainly electricity prices have been *very* steady.
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Now, if Honda and/or Toyota would get off their duffs and come out with a PHEV minivan, I'd be far more interested--DW makes lots of short trips each day, and that would be the perfect application.

It's not Honda or Toyota, but the Chrysler Pacifica has a plug in hybrid option: https://www.chrysler.com/pacifica/hybrid.html

And, yes, you're right - a minivan is almost perfect for that use case, because they do tend to make a lot of shorter, in town trips - and are often at home to charge up.  Even on 120V charging, we often get nearly 70 miles of battery range on the Volt in a day.  With a 240V outlet, there are some days that we could get nearly 100 miles of electric range with how trips work (those days are rare, but it's entirely possible to do it).
Yup, I'm aware of the Pacifica Hybrid.  And while I applaud Chrysler's efforts to innovate in the minivan space (stow 'n' go, hybrid), I've been less than impressed with their passenger comfort and overall quality.  That said, Honda's been having issues with their latest-and-greatest Odyssey, too...

But a hybrid Odyssey or Sienna?  Fantastic gas mileage for the gazillion trips around town, but still has the engine for cross-country trips.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2019, 05:18:11 PM »
In the winter it's closer to 25 miles with the heated seats + air vents on max. <- Yes it affects it THAT much. You can offset this by "preconditioning" the car via the button on the key when the car is plugged in.

It helps some, though if you're charging on 120V, most of that energy is coming out of the battery in the first place.  On a 240V charger, preconditioning is a lot more useful.

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In the summer the car OUTPERFORMS the stated range and I routinely get >50 miles in a charge with a personal record of over 60 miles.

What sort of speeds?  My best is 53 miles, and we regularly get 35-40 miles on battery without doing anything special.

TheAnonOne

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2019, 06:08:22 PM »
In the winter it's closer to 25 miles with the heated seats + air vents on max. <- Yes it affects it THAT much. You can offset this by "preconditioning" the car via the button on the key when the car is plugged in.

It helps some, though if you're charging on 120V, most of that energy is coming out of the battery in the first place.  On a 240V charger, preconditioning is a lot more useful.

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In the summer the car OUTPERFORMS the stated range and I routinely get >50 miles in a charge with a personal record of over 60 miles.

What sort of speeds?  My best is 53 miles, and we regularly get 35-40 miles on battery without doing anything special.

Stop and go in "L" with only AIR on the dash, VERY slow speeds

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2019, 09:41:23 PM »
Stop and go in "L" with only AIR on the dash, VERY slow speeds

Ah, yeah.  That's about the best case.  We do 55mph rural roads, or 35mph in town roads.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2019, 12:51:23 AM »
Stop and go in "L" with only AIR on the dash, VERY slow speeds

Ah, yeah.  That's about the best case.  We do 55mph rural roads, or 35mph in town roads.
Yep, electric cars are optimized for stop and go traffic. Of course it is much preferable to avoid stop and go traffic by using a bike instead.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2019, 06:38:06 AM »
Question for Volt owners - do you carry around your own 3-prong (110v) extension cord in case you need to charge at a friends or family member's place?  If so, 1) how long of a cord do you find to be useful and 2) what's the minimum gauge you can use if you are running, say, a 50' cord?

Mostly thinking of when I worked on a boat and our shore-power cord was an effing' heavy (and expensive) 100' 6AWG/3 plug that cost something like $200 (and frequently had to be replaced).

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2019, 09:08:55 AM »
On 120V, the Volt won't charge beyond 12A.

In theory, a 14AWG cord should be fine for charging, just make sure the outlets are in decent shape or you'll cook the house side outlet.

I carry a Duosida charger and 25' 120V cord in the back of the car with me so I can charge while out.  My wife doesn't bother, and I only do it at a few places if needed (I'll plug in for D&D nights, since I'm there for a few hours and typically the battery is too low to get home without gas by that time).

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2019, 09:16:54 AM »
On 120V, the Volt won't charge beyond 12A.

In theory, a 14AWG cord should be fine for charging, just make sure the outlets are in decent shape or you'll cook the house side outlet.

G2K. 
This thread might be timely for us, as our 14yo vehicle just got a terminal diagnosis (or at least a repair that's probably far more than we want to pay for a car that old and rusty).  We're also set to move - potentially to a place where we could charge -  so for the first time ever a plug-in might be feasible for us.  Work also has **free** 240v charging stations for employees.

I asked about the cord because we'd probably make periodic trips to the inlaws ~60 miles away.  It would be nice to charge off their 110v overnight, but I'd want to bring my own cord and not rely/bother/borrow theirs, as we'd arrive each time with a spent battery and running the last two dozen miles or so off gas. 

We had been pondering a leaf, but your post has given us a new perspective and respect for the Volt.  FWIW my parents also have one and my mom calls it "the best car she's ever owned" - which includes a long list of mid-level luxury sedans and fancy-pants commuters in the $35-50k MSPR range.

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2019, 09:52:17 AM »
Question for Volt owners - do you carry around your own 3-prong (110v) extension cord in case you need to charge at a friends or family member's place?  If so, 1) how long of a cord do you find to be useful and 2) what's the minimum gauge you can use if you are running, say, a 50' cord?

Mostly thinking of when I worked on a boat and our shore-power cord was an effing' heavy (and expensive) 100' 6AWG/3 plug that cost something like $200 (and frequently had to be replaced).
6 AWG is quite a bit bigger than you'd need for this. The typical 110v outlet is rated for 15 Amps (might be on a 20 Amp breaker if the wiring is sufficient). The Volt's charger will only use up to 12 Amps, so technically the typical 16 AWG extension cord rated for 13 Amps is sufficient. Bumping up the wire size will reduce voltage drop which should deliver slightly more energy to your car.

Work also has **free** 240v charging stations for employees.
Should be able to get a full charge by lunchtime!

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Re: I bought a used Chevy Volt - and you probably should too!
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2019, 10:23:41 AM »
I drive 39.5 miles each way to work, and we have free EV charging at work. I can get drive the full 79 miles only using 0.2 gallons of gas (if any) $1.40 of electricity (that I pay for). I am pretty much the perfect use case for the Volt and I love it. Even with the repair trouble I mentioned above, I would buy this car again.

I can't figure out the quote function, but to the person above who asked what error codes I got, the service receipt I got literally has a full page printout of just error codes. The volt tech I talked to said that the GM EV Support team mentioned that my issue is "something they have seen before, but only very rarely". I had no codes or check engine lights prior to the complete loss of power I experienced. 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!