I'm not Mustachian

[HotTubes]

I'm not Mustachian -and here's why this forum still matters to me

Long time lurker, infrequent poster. Prior to 2016 I made every money mistake someone can make; on the spending side, the saving side, the raiding 401k side, etc etc.  I buy and enjoy "nice things" and I always will. I like John Lobb and Crockett & Jones shoes, sports cars, and European vacations.  I saved very little for a long time.

So what the hell am I doing here?

If there's a one-word answer, maybe it's "learning" - or maybe it's "recalibration" -  Maybe I'm still figuring it out.

I'll admit that it's the RE and not the FI that lead me here - the realization that I might not be able to work until I'm 70 (as I had planned) combined with the desire to explore an uncompromising life outside of work.  As I learned about FI it was clear I was way, way short of where I needed to be. A reset was needed.  I increased my savings rate (from 10% to 32%), accelerated my debt payments. Put off purchases that I previously would have made without hesitation. The biggest one for me was cutting back on dining out. This was triggered by a discussion with a financially strapped colleague who would spend $80/night at the bar, 2-3 nights a week. 

So, I wanted to be free from debt, but things like Dave Ramsey seemed cult-ish to me. Early Retirement Forum was too Florida Lexus for me. Searches lead me here. The "you can do it" attitude was what attracted me.  I'm guessing that I'm never going to use a bike as my main mode of transportation, I'll never bake my own pizza, or have much of a vegetable garden; but I did spend $20,000 less when I bought my last car  (3 years old instead of new), and $1000 less when I bought my last guitar, and I hardly spend any money dining out and never go out for drinks. I'm cooking more, eating less, losing weight, and saving money.  I was proud that I didn't blink in March at the crash, and that my net woth has doubled.

 While I have lots more to learn and do, I know that I've saved more, and spent less, because of you all - so, I'm not Mustachian, but I'm happy to be here.

I'm guessing there are a fair number of lurkers and maybe some members who have benefitted greatly from this forum without adopting the complete package.  I would love to hear your stories.

[ender]

What does "Mustachian" mean to you?

Hard to know if you are "not Mustachian" without knowing that.

[Jack0Life]

I'm somewhat semi-mustachian.
When I discovered this forum late 2015, I did a net worth calculation and found out that we are actually worth more than I thought. Little over ~$500k.
That's when my hardcore saving mode kicked in. We set along a budget with the wife and saved religiously.
My wife was going to college at the time and I was making good money, $120k-$130k. Probably brought home closer to $100k and we saved around $60k which I thought was extremely awesome.
Then 2017 happened. We met some friends which became a "circle of friends". You know the old saying "having friends are expensive"
I bought my wife a Lexus. We moved to a newly constructed 2810sf house even though its just us 2. We went out a lot with our new circle of friends. We took turn throwing parties and get togethers. Keeping up with the Joneses you may say. The budget went out the window. We were still saving but not hard core.
The past 3 yrs or so we lived pretty freely. My wife got a job right out of college. We were a DINK couple making $170k yr. Then Covid19 happened and then I got laid-off.
Even with all the bumps, we are still sitting over $1.1 million. If we were still hard core savers the last 3 yrs, we might be at $1.2 or maybe even $1.3 but we still enjoyed life and our net worth still grew tremendously.
Yeah we deviated from our original plan, lived a bit more freely but at the end, we still came out OK.

[draco44]

I'm cooking more, eating less, losing weight, and saving money.  I was proud that I didn't blink in March at the crash, and that my net woth has doubled.

Sounds like you're doing just fine and are aware of your personal choices in luxuries. You can adjust as works best for you in the future if you so desire. The main thing is you're willing to think about what you've done and where you are going, and why.

Even if you choose not to fully adopt their ideas as your own, learning about someone else's "extreme" life choice stories can be very helpful for making people reflect on their current habits, providing a model to work towards, and/or simply demonstrating that the way "things have always been done" isn't the only possibility.

I get very annoyed in social circles, be they online or in person, when people snub newbies and shit on someone who's making an honest effort to mingle and learn. It's rude and ultimately self-destructive for the group. And no matter how old you get, all of us will be that newbie somewhere. If you find value in this forum, stick around. We're all learning from each other together.

[SunnyDays]

Being Mustachian doesn't mean never spending a cent beyond absolute needs.  It means being conscious about where your money is going and getting fulfillment and value out of your spending.  That allows for a wide range of lifestyles.  There's no sense in hoarding money, living an unhappy life and dying with millions in the bank.  So maybe you're more Mustachian than you realize?

[Zikoris]

I'm barely Mustachian, but in the other direction - I think Mustachians still consume too much, support too many unethical companies, and put too much shit in landfills through overconsumption and waste (loooots of techies here buying all the latest electronics, which I think is downright immoral) and think ERE is more the way to go. MMM himself isn't so bad, at about 25K spending I believe, but I think that in general if you're spending like 60K+, with the exception of people who just spend a ton on housing and not other consumer stuff, your consumption of resources and production of garbage is going to be through the roof.

I'm about a year, maybe year and a half away from moving to a small island and into a cabin. I look forward to making the switch from grocery shopping by foot to grocery shopping by kayak.

[GoCubsGo]

I'm barely Mustachian, but in the other direction - I think Mustachians still consume too much, support too many unethical companies, and put too much shit in landfills through overconsumption and waste (loooots of techies here buying all the latest electronics, which I think is downright immoral) and think ERE is more the way to go. MMM himself isn't so bad, at about 25K spending I believe, but I think that in general if you're spending like 60K+, with the exception of people who just spend a ton on housing and not other consumer stuff, your consumption of resources and production of garbage is going to be through the roof.

I'm about a year, maybe year and a half away from moving to a small island and into a cabin. I look forward to making the switch from grocery shopping by foot to grocery shopping by kayak.

To each there own as being a Mustachian is different for everyone , but it looks like your big into travel.. what do planes run on? Jet fuel supplied by unethical companies.  Not picking on you specifically Zikoris as I admire how lean you live but it's something I've noticed a lot.  Spending on "consumer" items gets crapped on, but somehow travel is untouchable. I see that a lot on the forums.

[lutorm]

To each there own as being a Mustachian is different for everyone , but it looks like your big into travel.. what do planes run on? Jet fuel supplied by unethical companies.  Not picking on you specifically Zikoris as I admire how lean you live but it's something I've noticed a lot.  Spending on "consumer" items gets crapped on, but somehow travel is untouchable. I see that a lot on the forums.

Yeah, an entire year of a reasonably low-consumption lifestyle is blown out of the water by a single transatlantic flight, CO2-wise. It's pretty enlightening to do a carbon footprint inventory.

[Zikoris]

To each there own as being a Mustachian is different for everyone , but it looks like your big into travel.. what do planes run on? Jet fuel supplied by unethical companies.  Not picking on you specifically Zikoris as I admire how lean you live but it's something I've noticed a lot.  Spending on "consumer" items gets crapped on, but somehow travel is untouchable. I see that a lot on the forums.

Yeah, an entire year of a reasonably low-consumption lifestyle is blown out of the water by a single transatlantic flight, CO2-wise. It's pretty enlightening to do a carbon footprint inventory.

My perspective on the matter is that greenhouse gases are more flexible than other things, in that you can offset them - so if you do one thing, like travel, that produces a fair bit, but then for example are childfree, car-free, small-space-living, zero-waste-leaning, vegan, and also do some effective outreach that influences others to also reduce their consumption, you can pretty much more than make up for a couple flights a year. And those are just specific things we do, you could also plants trees, etc.

But actual physical waste produced is a whole different ball game. It's wild to think that, for example, every toothbrush you've ever had in your life is sitting in some landfill still, or in the ocean. Electronics are particularly terrible, from the mining of rare earth minerals in terrible conditions in third world countries, to workers in the factories dying of cancer from all the toxic shit, to everything that leaches into the earth from the electronics in landfills. The production of fast fashion is also one of the most god-awful processes around right now. And basically for all of that, there's virtually nothing you could do to offset buying any of it. There's currently no way to unmake most plastic, and in the west even if you recycle the few things that can be recycled, only something like 10% even ends up actually recycled. Everything basically goes into landfills, even if you do everything right as far as separating, cleaning, and attempting to recycle. It's madness, and the only way to stop it is to either force companies to stop making 90% of the stuff sold today, or stop buying it en masse.

[RedmondStash]

My sense is that the usage of the term "Mustachian" has changed a lot over the past few years on this forum, from hardcore bike-everywhere, save-every-penny to a milder "take what works for you and leave the rest behind" consciousness-raising about spending and investments.

I am hardly hardcore, but I consider myself Mustachian, in that I try to be conscious of how I spend money, I finally understand finances and taxes, and I aim more for a simple, relatively frugal life. I still spend on what matters to me, and I haven't dusted off my bike in years. I'm sure I could do better about my environmental impact and carbon footprint. We all have our own ways of being in the world. *shrug*

I'm not sure the label is what matters. I think it's laudable to become more aware of how you spend money, and to put a plan in place that lays out a clear path to your financial goals.

I also think it's laudable to seek out new information in the service of self-improvement. I'm very grateful for what I've learned here; it has helped me liberate myself from both financial fears and an expensive financial planner.

We're all just doing the best we can.

[American GenX]

I don't consider myself mustachian and never have, and I don't consider a lot of others posting here to be with the expensive houses, news cars, recreational traveling, and other unnecessary or wasteful spending.

[Metalcat]

There are a lot of higher spending, luxury car owning, non bike commuting, non pizza making folks here. Some don't even want to retire early. If you're not Mustachian then neither are a lot of folks around these parts. Whether they/we are or not is certainly up for debate...

Regardless, I think you'll find you fit in just fine and don't need to announce that you aren't one of us.

Welcome out of the shadows, and congrats on getting your shit together and figuring out what kind of life you want for yourself.

[HotTubes]

My sense is that the usage of the term "Mustachian" has changed a lot over the past few years on this forum, from hardcore bike-everywhere, save-every-penny to a milder "take what works for you and leave the rest behind" consciousness-raising about spending and investments.

I am hardly hardcore, but I consider myself Mustachian, in that I try to be conscious of how I spend money, I finally understand finances and taxes, and I aim more for a simple, relatively frugal life. I still spend on what matters to me, and I haven't dusted off my bike in years. I'm sure I could do better about my environmental impact and carbon footprint. We all have our own ways of being in the world. *shrug*

I'm not sure the label is what matters. I think it's laudable to become more aware of how you spend money, and to put a plan in place that lays out a clear path to your financial goals.

I also think it's laudable to seek out new information in the service of self-improvement. I'm very grateful for what I've learned here; it has helped me liberate myself from both financial fears and an expensive financial planner.

We're all just doing the best we can.

Yeah that's a good point. Doing a reset and doing the best I can.

I do think it's important to point out to others like me, who are maybe just lurking, that you don't have to sell your new car to get a ton of benefit from being here on the forum.  And maybe, like I just did, you'll end up buying used the next time. So, I'm not really talking to the 4,000 post members, but maybe the ones who are lurking or newer like me, and I'm saying you don't have to meet a reasonable definition of Mustachian (I certainly don't) to join and participate here.

I think the other point you raise about "financial fears" is crucial, especially if, like me, you grew up without a lot of money and/or without any understanding of money.  It can all seem a mystery.  I think the idea of little green soldiers is brilliant; money needn't be mysterious.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

Meh, in terms of lifetime consumption an extra child in the family costs a lot more in money, overall resources and carbon footprint than, say, a Ferrari, so as long as you're not buying a private jet or a cruise ship, I suspect the distinction between Mustachian vs non-Mustachian is an arbitrary and unnecessary one.

[HotTubes]

Meh, in terms of lifetime consumption an extra child in the family costs a lot more in money, overall resources and carbon footprint than, say, a Ferrari, so as long as you're not buying a private jet or a cruise ship, I suspect the distinction between Mustachian vs non-Mustachian is an arbitrary and unnecessary one.

So this is now the Mr Money Forum?

Totally disagree - having a baseline of Mustachism is important, at least to me and I suspect to many others.

[Metalcat]

Meh, in terms of lifetime consumption an extra child in the family costs a lot more in money, overall resources and carbon footprint than, say, a Ferrari, so as long as you're not buying a private jet or a cruise ship, I suspect the distinction between Mustachian vs non-Mustachian is an arbitrary and unnecessary one.

So this is now the Mr Money Forum?

Totally disagree - having a baseline of Mustachism is important, at least to me and I suspect to many others.

K...but who gets to define it?

[FIREby35]

Great for you!

I know I came out of the gate "hot." By that, I mean I was a very good mustachian at the beginning. I saved huge percentages of a good income, drove a used, beat-up Prius, biked a lot, cut cables and more. What happened to me is that I saved way past the point of "retirement inevitability" and realized I was in my mid-30's, totally loaded and with nowhere to go and nothing to do but live my life. So, I transformed my work, but didn't stop working (i.e. Retirement Police can write me a ticket). Now, I actually make more! But, I don't have to save as much. Hmmm, so my mustachian belt has been let out a notch or two. I'm still saving, out of habbit. But, I'm happily living in the major benefits of being an independently wealthy human being. Thanks MMM!

I know the environmental part moves many MMM'ers. But, for me, it wasn't about environmentalism (a happy side benefit, in my view). It was just about not being dominated by money when I had to make choices. You know, like where am I going to live because my house is being foreclosed upon or knowing I have enough to buy any groceries I want - forever. These are things I couldn't take for granted at certain stages of my life (mostly when I had to depend on others). Today, these things are as secure as they can be due to "Mustachianism." Those were life upgrades for me, provided by MMM philosophy.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

Meh, in terms of lifetime consumption an extra child in the family costs a lot more in money, overall resources and carbon footprint than, say, a Ferrari, so as long as you're not buying a private jet or a cruise ship, I suspect the distinction between Mustachian vs non-Mustachian is an arbitrary and unnecessary one.

So this is now the Mr Money Forum?

Totally disagree - having a baseline of Mustachism is important, at least to me and I suspect to many others.

Fair enough then. I hope no one on these forums owns a private jet or has children.

[dogboyslim]

I'm not mustachian either, but I'm LBYM and FIRE.   Even though my RE is more like 55 than 35, this forum is one of the few places LBYM is also covered.  It also motivates me to LEFBYM (Live Even Further Below Your Means).  So while I can't hold a candle to many, this forum still helps motivate me to keep saving, spend less, and really understand what is needed spending and discretionary spending.

[trygeek]

I think your post is simply the best because it shows how small changes can really impact your life. Make small changes that have large impacts. Yet, you still manage to live a very nice lifestyle that you you can be comfortable with, you are not dumpster diving groceries but if other people want to that's their choice. With all of these things in personal finance you are doing it right in my opinion take what works for you personally and discard the rest.

[HBFIRE]

I'm not either.  And I've seen a few question why people bother being in this community if you aren't a true mustachian.  It's silly.  As long as you're gaining something from the community that's useful for yourself, that's all that really matters.   Optimize your life towards what brings happiness.  This year in particular has brought to light some things I need to change.

[OurTown]

FI-curious?

[Cranky]

I’m not “Mustachian” because I don’t care about RE (and I think FI is illusory .)

I’m just naturally fairly cheap - I wouldn’t know a Lexus if it ran over me, I like making my own pizza, and having kids was the most fun I ever had. ;-)

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

I'm not either.  And I've seen a few question why people bother being in this community if you aren't a true mustachian.  It's silly.  As long as you're gaining something from the community that's useful for yourself, that's all that really matters.   Optimize your life towards what brings happiness.  This year in particular has brought to light some things I need to change.

It would be a boring community if we were all of the same mindset.

The only MMM value I agree with is being conscientious about time/money. Everything else I range from indifferent to, to openly against (i.e., I generally don't believe frugality is a good thing of itself - however, I believe in efficiency, so for the most part I'm frugal, but not because I value frugality).

[NorthernMonkey]

Meh, in terms of lifetime consumption an extra child in the family costs a lot more in money, overall resources and carbon footprint than, say, a Ferrari, so as long as you're not buying a private jet or a cruise ship, I suspect the distinction between Mustachian vs non-Mustachian is an arbitrary and unnecessary one.

Curious to see why your group private jets and having children in the same category. Having children doesn’t need to be expensive.

So this is now the Mr Money Forum?

Totally disagree - having a baseline of Mustachism is important, at least to me and I suspect to many others.

Fair enough then. I hope no one on these forums owns a private jet or has children.

[honeybbq]

That's ok you can stay here anyways.

I get lots of good ideas  and I like the less-consumption/careful thought that goes into purchases and spending here. It has me thinking more about the environment and gives good alternatives to regular products I might buy but could now borrow, make, or change something I already own.

Half the people here LOVE vitamixes and half think it's a total waste of money. It's ok. We aren't all the same. (I love my Vitamix)

I'm about 50% MMM and 50% Boglehead and that's ok. I take what I want and leave the rest.

[guitar_stitch]

Mustachian as I see it is based on a few principals:

• Honesty: Be truthful with yourself.  In your car example, would buying a brand new car over the used model actually provide a level of joy and accomplishment equivalent to the monetary investment?  Does having a dog or a child provide equivalent value?
• Criticality: Be critical of all of your investments.  Time, money, mental real estate, emotional real estate, etc.  Do not just accept a shallow assumption of satisfaction.  Trim out what doesn't provide a lasting return on your investment.
• Personal Responsibility: Be aware that you and only you are responsible for the current status and future status of your existence.  The amount of control you can exert is limited to your own thoughts and responses to stimuli.  You control your carbon footprint, financial outlay, and overall impact.  You are responsible for your contribution to the world.  Whether it's right or wrong is highly subjective, but you must be comfortable with owning it.
• Resolving Cognitive Dissonance: Be ready to challenge your assumptions, beliefs, and understanding of the world.  Being comfortable with challenging yourself to grow mentally.

[trygeek]

Meh, in terms of lifetime consumption an extra child in the family costs a lot more in money, overall resources and carbon footprint than, say, a Ferrari, so as long as you're not buying a private jet or a cruise ship, I suspect the distinction between Mustachian vs non-Mustachian is an arbitrary and unnecessary one.

So this is now the Mr Money Forum?

Totally disagree - having a baseline of Mustachism is important, at least to me and I suspect to many others.

Wow, seems like the family is breaking up. Difference of opinion is okay. We all just try to do the best we can. Some of us will never buy a brand new car and some of us will never dream of not buying a new car. However that doesn't mean we can't learn from each other.

[Metalcat]

Meh, in terms of lifetime consumption an extra child in the family costs a lot more in money, overall resources and carbon footprint than, say, a Ferrari, so as long as you're not buying a private jet or a cruise ship, I suspect the distinction between Mustachian vs non-Mustachian is an arbitrary and unnecessary one.

So this is now the Mr Money Forum?

Totally disagree - having a baseline of Mustachism is important, at least to me and I suspect to many others.

Wow, seems like the family is breaking up. Difference of opinion is okay. We all just try to do the best we can. Some of us will never buy a brand new car and some of us will never dream of not buying a new car. However that doesn't mean we can't learn from each other.

The family is breaking up???

Not exactly, Bloop is our resident MMM contrarian who takes almost every chance he can to rail against most of MMM's values, but we like him anyway because he's quite gracious.

And HotTubes? I don't know them yet, they're new, but seem to have some strong opinions, although they never responded when I asked who should be the one to define this so-called Mustachian baseline.

Besides, it's not a proper MMM forums fight until at least 3 people have used the terms "strawman" and "good faith" and somehow managed to make it about Trump voters or "the left".

Honestly, that didn't even register as conflict here, so I wouldn't get to worried about it.

[Rhinodad]

That's ok you can stay here anyways.

I get lots of good ideas  and I like the less-consumption/careful thought that goes into purchases and spending here. It has me thinking more about the environment and gives good alternatives to regular products I might buy but could now borrow, make, or change something I already own.

Half the people here LOVE vitamixes and half think it's a total waste of money. It's ok. We aren't all the same. (I love my Vitamix)

I'm about 50% MMM and 50% Boglehead and that's ok. I take what I want and leave the rest.

Which by definition, means 50% are just wrong. As a chef, a Vitamix is absolutely crucial:)

[Dicey]

That's ok you can stay here anyways.

I get lots of good ideas  and I like the less-consumption/careful thought that goes into purchases and spending here. It has me thinking more about the environment and gives good alternatives to regular products I might buy but could now borrow, make, or change something I already own.

Half the people here LOVE vitamixes and half think it's a total waste of money. It's ok. We aren't all the same. (I love my Vitamix)

I'm about 50% MMM and 50% Boglehead and that's ok. I take what I want and leave the rest.

Which by definition, means 50% are just wrong. As a chef, a Vitamix is absolutely crucial:)

The short version is that it's not about the blender, whichever brand you prefer, it's about the cost, which many on this forum believe is ridiculous. I don't have a preference; it's just kind of a shorthand reference to a very, very long previous thread.

Like any big family, we fight about all kinds of shit, but at the end of the day, we all still love each other. Mostly.

[GoCubsGo]

Meh, in terms of lifetime consumption an extra child in the family costs a lot more in money, overall resources and carbon footprint than, say, a Ferrari, so as long as you're not buying a private jet or a cruise ship, I suspect the distinction between Mustachian vs non-Mustachian is an arbitrary and unnecessary one.

So this is now the Mr Money Forum?

Totally disagree - having a baseline of Mustachism is important, at least to me and I suspect to many others.

Wow, seems like the family is breaking up. Difference of opinion is okay. We all just try to do the best we can. Some of us will never buy a brand new car and some of us will never dream of not buying a new car. However that doesn't mean we can't learn from each other.

The family is breaking up???

Not exactly, Bloop is our resident MMM contrarian who takes almost every chance he can to rail against most of MMM's values, but we like him anyway because he's quite gracious.

And HotTubes? I don't know them yet, they're new, but seem to have some strong opinions, although they never responded when I asked who should be the one to define this so-called Mustachian baseline.

Besides, it's not a proper MMM forums fight until at least 3 people have used the terms "strawman" and "good faith" and somehow managed to make it about Trump voters or "the left".

Honestly, that didn't even register as conflict here, so I wouldn't get to worried about it.

You forgot to add, "Do you pay your mortgage off early???" Mwhahahaha.  The ulitimate MMM family dinner table battle.