I'm not buying this

[use2betrix]

I wouldn't call working 60 hours a week for $250k  much of a sacrifice.  I just sacrificed 5 years of my life and possibly the rest of my career for nothing in the end. That's fucking sacrifice.

You are correct. I really don’t feel like I’m sacrificing as much now because even at 40 hrs my income would still be incredibly high. Last year I still worked a 6 month gig averaging 78 hrs a week. 12 hrs a day, 7 days a week, every other Sunday off.

What’s important to remember is that once I started my career I made about 5x less and still worked this much. I wouldn’t be where I am in my career without the hard work when I didn’t make as much. 1. Because I wouldn’t have been able to work the jobs if I said I’d only work 40, and 2. Because I learned more by working more and you eventually build a reputation as a hard worker.

My point is that some people to be successful need to put in that hard work when they don’t make a ton of money, so they can get to that point. Especially if they aren’t going to stick out by being naturally smart or talented to begin with. (I failed much of college, only have an associates degree, and have been diagnosed with learning disorders)

Also - to be able to frequently move so much on such short notice we needed to be mobile. Until last fall, my wife and I lived full time in a 5th wheel with less than 300 sq ft of living space. Sometimes in super run down RV parks or the lowest of income mobile home parks. I’d say that was also a huge sacrifice. It’s hard making so much money but to continue the success, sacrificing a reasonable amount of quality living space. We now live in a 750 sq ft apartment that feels like a mansion. Even now, our rent is only about 6% of my income because we only wanted a 6 month lease. We’re moving again in a couple months, 60 miles away. We’ll have a two bedroom though.

[Bloop Bloop]

To imply that hard work and smart planning are not 'sacrifice' and are somehow not worthy of being lauded is somewhat counter to the principles MMM is about.

It's about working hard and working smart. Yes, that is self-serving. All personal finance is self serving. You have to sort out your own financial situation before you can save anyone else.

[use2betrix]

I would call 60 hour work-weeks sacrifice.

Especially so, because to earn $250,000 you probably have to be good at what you do already. So there's a blend of two types of sacrifice. The first is the sacrifice required to work long hours. The second is the sacrifice required to become skilful and get ahead in your field - whether by getting really good grades in college, or by working in an inherently competitive/complex field, or what have you.

I would call it sacrifice for sure. Sacrifice plus talent and well-made choices and a bit of luck.

I would call it completely self serving to build your career and your own stash that way. What you gave up was for yourself, not for someone else. That is not sacrifice.

Not for anyone else? What about for my wife? I’m giving up a big part of my life for OUR future. I would say that she is in a pretty good position financially and relationship wise for a 25 year old woman with a high school diploma. Of course, I credit much success to her support while I work so much and making my life easier when not working.

We don’t have kids but hope to someday. They will also reap the benefits of my hard work.

I don’t really understand your logic at all.

[BookLoverL]

Regarding 60-hour work weeks, that is obviously one way to earn more money, and if you have the strength of character to be able to buckle down and do that for years on end, that will absolutely boost you on your way to fire.

Myself, I have a disability, and I've found when I've worked for anything close to the "normal" 40-hour week, I get burnt out after a couple of months. So I decided it was better to stick with part-time hours for whatever I was doing, and make do with the lower amount of money generated, because then at least I would be able to stick with the same job for a while rather than crash out and be earning nothing. If I'm going to get a method for earning more money, it needs to be by improving my value per hour instead.

I still find it possible to save for FIRE on my part-time income, though. So you don't need to be able to put yourself through the high-stress hours necessary to gain the highest incomes in order to be able to FIRE. ;)

[jlcnuke]

Let's see if I can address your points OP:

1. Everything seems to be US based - well yes, MMM is from the US so his postings are based on that perspective. Similarly, most of the people on the forum are also from the US so that's the perspective most often represented here.

2. It's mostly higher-income earners on the forums - Yep, that's how it's skewed.

3. Is there nothing for others here? Quite the contrary, there's lots for people of all means. In fact, you've already admitted to embracing some of the core tenets of the mustachian philosophy - riding your bike instead of having cars to cut down on costs, increase health, and reduce damage to the environment; minimizing living costs by keeping living situation from expanding simply because you "can afford a bigger place" (living at home instead of cutting your savings rate so that you could have a place of your own in your case), avoiding going out to eat and instead cooking food yourself, etc.

Just because you already have implemented such things doesn't mean there is no where else you could optimize your spending, and it doesn't mean that you need to do more or that the forum's lack of providing you (in your particular situation) with a bunch of other significant ways to cut expenses is an indication that it isn't for you. Quite the contrary, I think it means you've found a place with like-minded people who you can help with your viewpoints and who can help you with theirs in the future. That you don't see any advice you need at this moment doesn't mean you won't in the future or that you couldn't be one of the people providing advice to others here.

Welcome to the forums.

[jlcnuke]

OP, I came to mmm the same way you did, and asked some of the same questions (except I'm in the US, so didn't have a problem with that). I came back after acquiring a large-ish inheritance, making me feel more qualified to play ball, so to speak. The suggestion to make more money drives me absolutely nuts, because I've tried a lot. It's damned frustrating. I only pop over here now and then because there are smart people here who give some good advice/analysis. Measuring your progress here against others probably only leads to discouragement.

I rarely see anyone that complains about not making enough money, entirely incapable of making more. They typically just don’t like the sacrifices that making more money entails.

Second job
More hours
Move
Hard physical labor
Etc

I’ll probably take home close to $250k this year. I’ll also be working 60+ hr weeks. I easily average 500-1000 hrs of overtime most years. I haven’t called in sick in 8 years. I have lived in 8 states and over a dozen cities in the last decade, constantly moving up in my industry.

Unless someone is willing to, and has made those sacrifices or more, I really don’t want to hear how they “can’t make any more money.”

If people don’t want to make sacrifices then so be it, but it’s a bit degrading to those that work their ass off 10x harder to be successful. Some of us just want it more.

I wouldn't call working 60 hours a week for $250k  much of a sacrifice.  I just sacrificed 5 years of my life and possibly the rest of my career for nothing in the end. That's fucking sacrifice.

I'd call working 60 hour weeks a sacrifice, as you're giving up more hours of your life than most people do working.  I sacrificed 3 years of my life to work and school, where that was all I did for 99% of the year outside of basic human functions (like eating/sleeping/bathing/etc) to put me in the position I'm in now. How much I made doing so doesn't change the fact that I sacrificed maintaining friendships, missed out on relationships, didn't go "enjoy my life" during that time in order to have those educational and professional achievements that allow me to push towards FIRE faster these days.

I'd call giving 5 years of your life for nothing a waste though, more so than a sacrifice.

[MissNancyPryor]

For me the MMM philosophy and forum are about encouraging me to be "weird."  I already was doing everything needed to retire early but needed the clarity that is it possible. 

High income - check.

Frugal way before I found MMM - check.

Questioning why I have to work till 65 because society says so - check. 

I found MMM several years ago because I was searching for an endorsement that I can actually do this.  That it is OK to stop working and to find the social tools needed to navigate the decision. 

BTW, that high income didn't come from winning some sort of job lottery.  I killed myself and went back to school 10 years after high school and got a difficult degree.  Then I applied that degree smartly and climbed the ladder.  Why wouldn't you do everything possible to get the high income yourself then and accelerate your timeline?  You might stumble on meaningful work while you look for that magical fast track.   

[use2betrix]

OP, I came to mmm the same way you did, and asked some of the same questions (except I'm in the US, so didn't have a problem with that). I came back after acquiring a large-ish inheritance, making me feel more qualified to play ball, so to speak. The suggestion to make more money drives me absolutely nuts, because I've tried a lot. It's damned frustrating. I only pop over here now and then because there are smart people here who give some good advice/analysis. Measuring your progress here against others probably only leads to discouragement.

I rarely see anyone that complains about not making enough money, entirely incapable of making more. They typically just don’t like the sacrifices that making more money entails.

Second job
More hours
Move
Hard physical labor
Etc

I’ll probably take home close to $250k this year. I’ll also be working 60+ hr weeks. I easily average 500-1000 hrs of overtime most years. I haven’t called in sick in 8 years. I have lived in 8 states and over a dozen cities in the last decade, constantly moving up in my industry.

Unless someone is willing to, and has made those sacrifices or more, I really don’t want to hear how they “can’t make any more money.”

If people don’t want to make sacrifices then so be it, but it’s a bit degrading to those that work their ass off 10x harder to be successful. Some of us just want it more.

I wouldn't call working 60 hours a week for $250k  much of a sacrifice.  I just sacrificed 5 years of my life and possibly the rest of my career for nothing in the end. That's fucking sacrifice.

Care to elaborate on “wasted?” I think that in nearly every situation there can be a positive meaning from it. Even if you put all your effort into something that failed, you still built character, be it a business, relationship, etc.

Not to mention, there are so many more things in life that we should be sacrificing and working harder towards than just one thing. Last fall I took an online 40 hour course on my own dollar (over $1000) to take a challenging test and get a certification for my career. My current employer didn’t require it, but I knew it’d make me look good. I still worked 60 hr weeks. I still ran 3 days a week and weight lifted 3 times every week. I still had date nights with my wife maintaining a good relationship.

Even if my career totally sucked I still have goals to make my life positive outside of that. This year I’m shooting for a 20 minute 5k and I just started running last summer. Last week I woke up for no reason at 3 am so I went and ran 6 miles before work. My wife and I have savings and spending goals, my wife has training goals for our German Shepherd. I’m currently doing a 28 day meditation challenge and working on creating that habit. I listen to audiobooks to/from work. I read before bed.

If anyone feels they are wasting their lives then that is on them, yet so many try and point the finger at others. Like I mentioned earlier. I have had learning disabilities. I went to speech therapy for 6 years growing up and am still self conscious. I’ve had 3 hernia surgeries but I still lift weights. More and more I just see people everywhere making excuses and I just can’t buy it. There’s always someone out there that’s come from a much worse place to achieve a lot more.

[undercover]

Fact: wealthy/successful/high income people overwhelmingly attribute their success to hard work. They believe luck is a factor but not a very significant one. I know this because I used to think exactly like this because I've been successful. And I've seen it too many times. I've looked down on others who complained or try to become victim. I've wondered why they didn't just try or work harder.

Fact: poor/unsuccessful people overwhelmingly attribute their failures to bad luck or the results of other's actions. They believe luck is a significant factor.

The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I think we are all in far less control than we think and I don't really believe in free will (at a genetic level). But that doesn't mean you're automatically fucked simply for the fact that you have no idea what's going to happen in the future. If you need any evidence to support we aren't in nearly as much control as we think we are, just imagine being born in 1938 in Germany to Jewish parents. And where and when you are born are just two out of an immeasurable number of variables.

"Hard work" is actually very difficult to define. While I recognize I have worked "hard" in life, I could not have done that without all of the chances and opportunities to work hard.

All that said, I do not think anyone has an easy life regardless of their circumstances. I think some people are happier than others, but that literally has nothing to do with their success in life.

[lexde]

Your concerns aside, OP, the title of this thread is perfect. That’s how you get there, regardless of income level. I had the same spending habits now as I did when I made less than half of what I make now. It’s all relative, and if you can optimize your life and spending then you’ll get there sooner than you think.

[Fishindude]

It really just depends on what kind of income level you want to live on in retirement.  If you are currently earning $27K and banking half and are happy living the $13,500 annual income lifestyle, then there shouldn't be any reason you can't be comfortable with the same in retirement.   If you want more than that, you're probably going to have to find a new line of work or a second job and get your income up.

[Milizard]

OP, I came to mmm the same way you did, and asked some of the same questions (except I'm in the US, so didn't have a problem with that). I came back after acquiring a large-ish inheritance, making me feel more qualified to play ball, so to speak. The suggestion to make more money drives me absolutely nuts, because I've tried a lot. It's damned frustrating. I only pop over here now and then because there are smart people here who give some good advice/analysis. Measuring your progress here against others probably only leads to discouragement.

I rarely see anyone that complains about not making enough money, entirely incapable of making more. They typically just don’t like the sacrifices that making more money entails.

Second job
More hours
Move
Hard physical labor
Etc

I’ll probably take home close to $250k this year. I’ll also be working 60+ hr weeks. I easily average 500-1000 hrs of overtime most years. I haven’t called in sick in 8 years. I have lived in 8 states and over a dozen cities in the last decade, constantly moving up in my industry.

Unless someone is willing to, and has made those sacrifices or more, I really don’t want to hear how they “can’t make any more money.”

If people don’t want to make sacrifices then so be it, but it’s a bit degrading to those that work their ass off 10x harder to be successful. Some of us just want it more.

I wouldn't call working 60 hours a week for $250k  much of a sacrifice.  I just sacrificed 5 years of my life and possibly the rest of my career for nothing in the end. That's fucking sacrifice.

Care to elaborate on “wasted?” I think that in nearly every situation there can be a positive meaning from it. Even if you put all your effort into something that failed, you still built character, be it a business, relationship, etc.

Not to mention, there are so many more things in life that we should be sacrificing and working harder towards than just one thing. Last fall I took an online 40 hour course on my own dollar (over $1000) to take a challenging test and get a certification for my career. My current employer didn’t require it, but I knew it’d make me look good. I still worked 60 hr weeks. I still ran 3 days a week and weight lifted 3 times every week. I still had date nights with my wife maintaining a good relationship.

Even if my career totally sucked I still have goals to make my life positive outside of that. This year I’m shooting for a 20 minute 5k and I just started running last summer. Last week I woke up for no reason at 3 am so I went and ran 6 miles before work. My wife and I have savings and spending goals, my wife has training goals for our German Shepherd. I’m currently doing a 28 day meditation challenge and working on creating that habit. I listen to audiobooks to/from work. I read before bed.

If anyone feels they are wasting their lives then that is on them, yet so many try and point the finger at others. Like I mentioned earlier. I have had learning disabilities. I went to speech therapy for 6 years growing up and am still self conscious. I’ve had 3 hernia surgeries but I still lift weights. More and more I just see people everywhere making excuses and I just can’t buy it. There’s always someone out there that’s come from a much worse place to achieve a lot more.

You're quoting the word "wasted", yet I didn't use that word.  If you wish for me to elaborate, I will.  Despite being ill-equipped to the task by knowledge-base and personality, I became a caretaker.  I set aside my own wants/desires/ambitions/career/future (and those of my husband and children) in order to take care of someone for the eventual "reward" of death.  The sad thing was, by the time it came, it was a welcome relief for both of us.  What's even sadder is to read someone who's had the luxury to "sacrifice" by pursuing their own goals/career/wealth-building lecture me about fucking sacrifice.  I never said you didn't work hard.  Sounds like you probably did.  It's not a sacrifice when you had everything to gain from it for yourself and your partnership.  Good for you.  Spare me the "sacrifice" BS. 

[Bloop Bloop]

Perhaps if the word 'achievement' was used instead of sacrifice you would find it non-objectionable - but to me it seems to be splitting hairs on a website dedicated to financial achievement.

[DadJokes]

OP, I came to mmm the same way you did, and asked some of the same questions (except I'm in the US, so didn't have a problem with that). I came back after acquiring a large-ish inheritance, making me feel more qualified to play ball, so to speak. The suggestion to make more money drives me absolutely nuts, because I've tried a lot. It's damned frustrating. I only pop over here now and then because there are smart people here who give some good advice/analysis. Measuring your progress here against others probably only leads to discouragement.

I rarely see anyone that complains about not making enough money, entirely incapable of making more. They typically just don’t like the sacrifices that making more money entails.

Second job
More hours
Move
Hard physical labor
Etc

I’ll probably take home close to $250k this year. I’ll also be working 60+ hr weeks. I easily average 500-1000 hrs of overtime most years. I haven’t called in sick in 8 years. I have lived in 8 states and over a dozen cities in the last decade, constantly moving up in my industry.

Unless someone is willing to, and has made those sacrifices or more, I really don’t want to hear how they “can’t make any more money.”

If people don’t want to make sacrifices then so be it, but it’s a bit degrading to those that work their ass off 10x harder to be successful. Some of us just want it more.

I wouldn't call working 60 hours a week for $250k  much of a sacrifice.  I just sacrificed 5 years of my life and possibly the rest of my career for nothing in the end. That's fucking sacrifice.

Care to elaborate on “wasted?” I think that in nearly every situation there can be a positive meaning from it. Even if you put all your effort into something that failed, you still built character, be it a business, relationship, etc.

Not to mention, there are so many more things in life that we should be sacrificing and working harder towards than just one thing. Last fall I took an online 40 hour course on my own dollar (over $1000) to take a challenging test and get a certification for my career. My current employer didn’t require it, but I knew it’d make me look good. I still worked 60 hr weeks. I still ran 3 days a week and weight lifted 3 times every week. I still had date nights with my wife maintaining a good relationship.

Even if my career totally sucked I still have goals to make my life positive outside of that. This year I’m shooting for a 20 minute 5k and I just started running last summer. Last week I woke up for no reason at 3 am so I went and ran 6 miles before work. My wife and I have savings and spending goals, my wife has training goals for our German Shepherd. I’m currently doing a 28 day meditation challenge and working on creating that habit. I listen to audiobooks to/from work. I read before bed.

If anyone feels they are wasting their lives then that is on them, yet so many try and point the finger at others. Like I mentioned earlier. I have had learning disabilities. I went to speech therapy for 6 years growing up and am still self conscious. I’ve had 3 hernia surgeries but I still lift weights. More and more I just see people everywhere making excuses and I just can’t buy it. There’s always someone out there that’s come from a much worse place to achieve a lot more.

You're quoting the word "wasted", yet I didn't use that word.  If you wish for me to elaborate, I will.  Despite being ill-equipped to the task by knowledge-base and personality, I became a caretaker.  I set aside my own wants/desires/ambitions/career/future (and those of my husband and children) in order to take care of someone for the eventual "reward" of death.  The sad thing was, by the time it came, it was a welcome relief for both of us.  What's even sadder is to read someone who's had the luxury to "sacrifice" by pursuing their own goals/career/wealth-building lecture me about fucking sacrifice.  I never said you didn't work hard.  Sounds like you probably did.  It's not a sacrifice when you had everything to gain from it for yourself and your partnership.  Good for you.  Spare me the "sacrifice" BS.

The word sacrifice literally means giving something of value up in return for something regarded as more important or worthy. If you got nothing in return (this doesn't have to mean money), then sacrifice isn't the correct word choice.

No need to try to make someone else feel like shit because their life hasn't been as difficult as yours.

[Milizard]

OP, I came to mmm the same way you did, and asked some of the same questions (except I'm in the US, so didn't have a problem with that). I came back after acquiring a large-ish inheritance, making me feel more qualified to play ball, so to speak. The suggestion to make more money drives me absolutely nuts, because I've tried a lot. It's damned frustrating. I only pop over here now and then because there are smart people here who give some good advice/analysis. Measuring your progress here against others probably only leads to discouragement.

I rarely see anyone that complains about not making enough money, entirely incapable of making more. They typically just don’t like the sacrifices that making more money entails.

Second job
More hours
Move
Hard physical labor
Etc

I’ll probably take home close to $250k this year. I’ll also be working 60+ hr weeks. I easily average 500-1000 hrs of overtime most years. I haven’t called in sick in 8 years. I have lived in 8 states and over a dozen cities in the last decade, constantly moving up in my industry.

Unless someone is willing to, and has made those sacrifices or more, I really don’t want to hear how they “can’t make any more money.”

If people don’t want to make sacrifices then so be it, but it’s a bit degrading to those that work their ass off 10x harder to be successful. Some of us just want it more.

I wouldn't call working 60 hours a week for $250k  much of a sacrifice.  I just sacrificed 5 years of my life and possibly the rest of my career for nothing in the end. That's fucking sacrifice.

Care to elaborate on “wasted?” I think that in nearly every situation there can be a positive meaning from it. Even if you put all your effort into something that failed, you still built character, be it a business, relationship, etc.

Not to mention, there are so many more things in life that we should be sacrificing and working harder towards than just one thing. Last fall I took an online 40 hour course on my own dollar (over $1000) to take a challenging test and get a certification for my career. My current employer didn’t require it, but I knew it’d make me look good. I still worked 60 hr weeks. I still ran 3 days a week and weight lifted 3 times every week. I still had date nights with my wife maintaining a good relationship.

Even if my career totally sucked I still have goals to make my life positive outside of that. This year I’m shooting for a 20 minute 5k and I just started running last summer. Last week I woke up for no reason at 3 am so I went and ran 6 miles before work. My wife and I have savings and spending goals, my wife has training goals for our German Shepherd. I’m currently doing a 28 day meditation challenge and working on creating that habit. I listen to audiobooks to/from work. I read before bed.

If anyone feels they are wasting their lives then that is on them, yet so many try and point the finger at others. Like I mentioned earlier. I have had learning disabilities. I went to speech therapy for 6 years growing up and am still self conscious. I’ve had 3 hernia surgeries but I still lift weights. More and more I just see people everywhere making excuses and I just can’t buy it. There’s always someone out there that’s come from a much worse place to achieve a lot more.

You're quoting the word "wasted", yet I didn't use that word.  If you wish for me to elaborate, I will.  Despite being ill-equipped to the task by knowledge-base and personality, I became a caretaker.  I set aside my own wants/desires/ambitions/career/future (and those of my husband and children) in order to take care of someone for the eventual "reward" of death.  The sad thing was, by the time it came, it was a welcome relief for both of us.  What's even sadder is to read someone who's had the luxury to "sacrifice" by pursuing their own goals/career/wealth-building lecture me about fucking sacrifice.  I never said you didn't work hard.  Sounds like you probably did.  It's not a sacrifice when you had everything to gain from it for yourself and your partnership.  Good for you.  Spare me the "sacrifice" BS.

The word sacrifice literally means giving something of value up in return for something regarded as more important or worthy. If you got nothing in return (this doesn't have to mean money), then sacrifice isn't the correct word choice.

No need to try to make someone else feel like shit because their life hasn't been as difficult as yours.

Who's trying to make who feel like shit? He came after me trying to lecture me about sacrifice.  I would have loved to have the luxury to focus on my own goals during those years, plus I would might have actually made progress instead of falling behind instead.

How about, before he assumes others don't know as much as him about sacrifice,  he listens instead.

[DadJokes]

He asked you to elaborate, since you didn't give any details in your first comment, where you instead chose to attack him. That gives me the impression that he was trying to listen.

[Milizard]

He asked you to elaborate, since you didn't give any details in your first comment, where you instead chose to attack him. That gives me the impression that he was trying to listen.

He made big assumptions of anyone with that speech. I've detailed more here on this forum in the past.  I'm actually starting to recover, but forgive me for not wanting to rehash all the crap again.  My ordeal is over, but there are many others dealing with similar to one degree or another. And by recover, I mean I was finally able to get hired on a temp job At  $2 less an hour and 30 miles farther away than the job I had before all this, because I guess all my sacrifice got me was an unemployable stamp on my resume. 

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

OP, I came to mmm the same way you did, and asked some of the same questions (except I'm in the US, so didn't have a problem with that). I came back after acquiring a large-ish inheritance, making me feel more qualified to play ball, so to speak. The suggestion to make more money drives me absolutely nuts, because I've tried a lot. It's damned frustrating. I only pop over here now and then because there are smart people here who give some good advice/analysis. Measuring your progress here against others probably only leads to discouragement.

I rarely see anyone that complains about not making enough money, entirely incapable of making more. They typically just don’t like the sacrifices that making more money entails.

Second job
More hours
Move
Hard physical labor
Etc

I’ll probably take home close to $250k this year. I’ll also be working 60+ hr weeks. I easily average 500-1000 hrs of overtime most years. I haven’t called in sick in 8 years. I have lived in 8 states and over a dozen cities in the last decade, constantly moving up in my industry.

Unless someone is willing to, and has made those sacrifices or more, I really don’t want to hear how they “can’t make any more money.”

If people don’t want to make sacrifices then so be it, but it’s a bit degrading to those that work their ass off 10x harder to be successful. Some of us just want it more.

I wouldn't call working 60 hours a week for $250k  much of a sacrifice.  I just sacrificed 5 years of my life and possibly the rest of my career for nothing in the end. That's fucking sacrifice.

So your sacrifice is greater than his ...... because yours didn't pay off? Don't write off other people's efforts. The guy worked hard. You worked hard. That's really all there is to say.

[ixtap]

OP, I came to mmm the same way you did, and asked some of the same questions (except I'm in the US, so didn't have a problem with that). I came back after acquiring a large-ish inheritance, making me feel more qualified to play ball, so to speak. The suggestion to make more money drives me absolutely nuts, because I've tried a lot. It's damned frustrating. I only pop over here now and then because there are smart people here who give some good advice/analysis. Measuring your progress here against others probably only leads to discouragement.

I rarely see anyone that complains about not making enough money, entirely incapable of making more. They typically just don’t like the sacrifices that making more money entails.

Second job
More hours
Move
Hard physical labor
Etc

I’ll probably take home close to $250k this year. I’ll also be working 60+ hr weeks. I easily average 500-1000 hrs of overtime most years. I haven’t called in sick in 8 years. I have lived in 8 states and over a dozen cities in the last decade, constantly moving up in my industry.

Unless someone is willing to, and has made those sacrifices or more, I really don’t want to hear how they “can’t make any more money.”

If people don’t want to make sacrifices then so be it, but it’s a bit degrading to those that work their ass off 10x harder to be successful. Some of us just want it more.

I wouldn't call working 60 hours a week for $250k  much of a sacrifice.  I just sacrificed 5 years of my life and possibly the rest of my career for nothing in the end. That's fucking sacrifice.

So your sacrifice is greater than his ...... because yours didn't pay off? Don't write off other people's efforts. The guy worked hard. You worked hard. That's really all there is to say.

But one was claiming that anyone who works hard gets ahead, and the other was pointing out that this isn't always the case. It isn't the amount of work that is in question, it is the economic assumptions.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

OP, I came to mmm the same way you did, and asked some of the same questions (except I'm in the US, so didn't have a problem with that). I came back after acquiring a large-ish inheritance, making me feel more qualified to play ball, so to speak. The suggestion to make more money drives me absolutely nuts, because I've tried a lot. It's damned frustrating. I only pop over here now and then because there are smart people here who give some good advice/analysis. Measuring your progress here against others probably only leads to discouragement.

I rarely see anyone that complains about not making enough money, entirely incapable of making more. They typically just don’t like the sacrifices that making more money entails.

Second job
More hours
Move
Hard physical labor
Etc

I’ll probably take home close to $250k this year. I’ll also be working 60+ hr weeks. I easily average 500-1000 hrs of overtime most years. I haven’t called in sick in 8 years. I have lived in 8 states and over a dozen cities in the last decade, constantly moving up in my industry.

Unless someone is willing to, and has made those sacrifices or more, I really don’t want to hear how they “can’t make any more money.”

If people don’t want to make sacrifices then so be it, but it’s a bit degrading to those that work their ass off 10x harder to be successful. Some of us just want it more.

I wouldn't call working 60 hours a week for $250k  much of a sacrifice.  I just sacrificed 5 years of my life and possibly the rest of my career for nothing in the end. That's fucking sacrifice.

So your sacrifice is greater than his ...... because yours didn't pay off? Don't write off other people's efforts. The guy worked hard. You worked hard. That's really all there is to say.

But one was claiming that anyone who works hard gets ahead, and the other was pointing out that this isn't always the case. It isn't the amount of work that is in question, it is the economic assumptions.

It's sacrifice, either way. Hard work definitely doesn't always pay off, though.

[Milizard]

OP, I came to mmm the same way you did, and asked some of the same questions (except I'm in the US, so didn't have a problem with that). I came back after acquiring a large-ish inheritance, making me feel more qualified to play ball, so to speak. The suggestion to make more money drives me absolutely nuts, because I've tried a lot. It's damned frustrating. I only pop over here now and then because there are smart people here who give some good advice/analysis. Measuring your progress here against others probably only leads to discouragement.

I rarely see anyone that complains about not making enough money, entirely incapable of making more. They typically just don’t like the sacrifices that making more money entails.

Second job
More hours
Move
Hard physical labor
Etc

I’ll probably take home close to $250k this year. I’ll also be working 60+ hr weeks. I easily average 500-1000 hrs of overtime most years. I haven’t called in sick in 8 years. I have lived in 8 states and over a dozen cities in the last decade, constantly moving up in my industry.

Unless someone is willing to, and has made those sacrifices or more, I really don’t want to hear how they “can’t make any more money.”

If people don’t want to make sacrifices then so be it, but it’s a bit degrading to those that work their ass off 10x harder to be successful. Some of us just want it more.

I wouldn't call working 60 hours a week for $250k  much of a sacrifice.  I just sacrificed 5 years of my life and possibly the rest of my career for nothing in the end. That's fucking sacrifice.

So your sacrifice is greater than his ...... because yours didn't pay off? Don't write off other people's efforts. The guy worked hard. You worked hard. That's really all there is to say.

(whoosh )
That's not what I was saying at all. Maybe you should read further before jumping to ASSumptions.
 I never disputed that he worked hard.  My problem is his trying lecture me about sacrifice. You should be very careful using that word when you don't have a fucking clue what the person you're lecturing has been through. There is this tendency of people to assign some great virtue to those who've achieved success in some area. Virtue/= success. A lot of shitty people are financially successful.  Making choices for your own benefit/= sacrifice.  They are simply choosing one thing over another.  It's not like I'm making some huge sacrifice if I opt for veggies instead of a bag of chips. Hey, I didn't eat a cookie yesterday-- the sacrifice I made!

[MrThatsDifferent]

The OP hasn’t been in the forums in 6 days so far, he might be a troll. Not sure it makes any sense to feed this as it’s wasted energy to engage someone who isn’t engaged or active.

[DadJokes]

Milizard, your attitude might have something to do with your perceived unemployability. I certainly wouldn't want to hire someone with your disposition.

[Bloop Bloop]

I think the crux of it is this - the strict definition of sacrifice is giving up something in order to help another.

The colloquial, broader definition of the word sacrifice is giving up something (e.g. deferring pleasure) in order to reap some later reward.

Milizard is right to say that in the strictest definition of sacrifice (e.g. 'ritual sacrifice', 'sacrifice to the gods') then hard work is not a sacrifice unless it is purely altruistic.

However, I would have thought that it would be obvious to a sensible person that in this forum, which is dedicated to hard work and smart work, 'sacrifice' refers to the broader sense of willingly delaying or foregoing pleasurable or easy things in order to recoup rewards later. That some of these rewards go to oneself (high income, stability) rather than all being spent on one's family or the teeming masses is something that we understand and do not need lectured into us from some sort of position of brimming righteousness.

In other words - don't let your bitterness flow through to the rest of the discussion

[radram]

I chipped in to respond to someone who genuinely seem like he needed some encouragement, only to find he has not even been on the site for over a week. Thanks @MrThatsDifferent for pointing that out. Yours is now the best post on this thread.

I am now caught in a seemingly endless-loop discussion about the word sacrifice.

Now that's what I call sacrifice.

[Blueberries]

Fact: wealthy/successful/high income people overwhelmingly attribute their success to hard work. They believe luck is a factor but not a very significant one. I know this because I used to think exactly like this because I've been successful. And I've seen it too many times. I've looked down on others who complained or try to become victim. I've wondered why they didn't just try or work harder.

Fact: poor/unsuccessful people overwhelmingly attribute their failures to bad luck or the results of other's actions. They believe luck is a significant factor.

The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I think we are all in far less control than we think and I don't really believe in free will (at a genetic level). But that doesn't mean you're automatically fucked simply for the fact that you have no idea what's going to happen in the future. If you need any evidence to support we aren't in nearly as much control as we think we are, just imagine being born in 1938 in Germany to Jewish parents. And where and when you are born are just two out of an immeasurable number of variables.

"Hard work" is actually very difficult to define. While I recognize I have worked "hard" in life, I could not have done that without all of the chances and opportunities to work hard.

All that said, I do not think anyone has an easy life regardless of their circumstances. I think some people are happier than others, but that literally has nothing to do with their success in life.

Ding, ding ding! 

There is actually a bit of research to support the general sentiment of this post.