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General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: frugalnacho on April 04, 2019, 07:52:44 AM

Title: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 04, 2019, 07:52:44 AM
5 months ago I started a new job:  https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/got-a-new-job/

The main plant I work at is shut down now, and I am going to be laid off in the next week probably.  Kind of sucks that they recruited me away from a stable job of 12 years, only to shut the plant less than 5 months after my start date and eliminate my position. 
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: rantk81 on April 04, 2019, 08:05:00 AM
That sucks.  Did you leave the old place on good terms?  Maybe consider re-applying back?
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: ducky19 on April 04, 2019, 08:06:13 AM
That really sucks, sorry to hear that FN!
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 04, 2019, 08:08:52 AM
That sucks.  Did you leave the old place on good terms?  Maybe consider re-applying back?

I did but I hate that dumpster fire of a company and don't want to go back.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: AlotToLearn on April 04, 2019, 09:31:52 AM
That does suck, however consider this time as an opportunity to assess what you want to do professionally and what motivates you personally. We all get times in our life when we choose (or are forced to) reboot and reinvent ourselves.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Mike in NH on April 04, 2019, 09:59:37 AM
Sorry to see this, I hope it leads to a new/better opportunity for you.

@ megacorp when my old office was shuttered, at the time of the announcement there was a woman who had been hired on from a solid/stable job at a competitor the week before. Nothing like knowingly doing that to someone for the benefit of not upsetting the herd and tipping your hand with some sort of respectable behavior like a hiring freeze.

Unforgivable. She got up in the meeting in front of some really important* senior leadership, said are you people effing kidding me, and walked out.


*Not important, just think they are
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: PDXTabs on April 04, 2019, 10:02:44 AM
Unforgivable. She got up in the meeting in front of some really important* senior leadership, said are you people effing kidding me, and walked out.

Ha! I hope that she got a good hiring bonus and severance package. I've seen that in real life, in fact the person was pretty excited.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Prairie Stash on April 04, 2019, 10:37:01 AM
Ouch, that's harsh.

Any chance of coasting till FIRE? Hang your shingle and do some consulting work? You have the skills, you can probably bring in some contracts. If I recall you just got your PE, it might not be bad to work for yourself or at least try it for a few months while job hunting.

I'm glad you remember why you left your former company, its a craptacular industry.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 04, 2019, 10:38:16 AM
No hiring freeze, in fact they've been doing the opposite.  They had a an employee referral bonus system in place to recruit more people, and they have been hiring people like crazy.  Many people hired after me.  Some have left stable jobs and relocated (including purchasing a house) within the last 2 months.  It sounds like they are legally required to pay everyone for 60 days after your last day of employment.  I didn't really like what my old company of 12 years had become, and obviously was ready to move on, but if I had known I only had 5 months I would have instead stayed at the old job until I found something permanent.  Now I've gone through all the stress of quitting and starting a new job only to be laid off and have to find another job, but now the clock is ticking and I don't have the luxury of passing on something that isn't quite what I am looking for. 

Plus I'm still stuck at work right now until they tell me I'm officially done, so I can't quit or walk out without forfeiting whatever severance they are going to give me.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 04, 2019, 10:42:43 AM
Ouch, that's harsh.

Any chance of coasting till FIRE? Hang your shingle and do some consulting work? You have the skills, you can probably bring in some contracts. If I recall you just got your PE, it might not be bad to work for yourself or at least try it for a few months while job hunting.

I'm glad you remember why you left your former company, its a craptacular industry.

We are still pretty far away from FIRE.  NW is just above $500k including the house, so we need several $100k more.  I passed the FE exam in 2018, but I haven't taken my PE exam yet.  I've been planning to take it, but I thought I would be overloading myself to study for the PE while also getting into the groove of a new job. 
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Prairie Stash on April 04, 2019, 11:00:06 AM

Plus I'm still stuck at work right now until they tell me I'm officially done, so I can't quit or walk out without forfeiting whatever severance they are going to give me.
Fuck that, if you find something you walk out on the spot. Bail on that sinking ship on the first lifeboat you find, let the captain go down with the ship. If you get a new job you'll get paychecks, how is that worse than severance? Yesterday you had every intention of working all year, all that's changed is the employer.

They just told you that they don't need you, you don't owe them another minute. You are 100% free to show up at a new job on monday. Just be kind enough to go in and collect your personal items over the weekend.

If you don't find something, stick around for the severance. Ranting aside, lets be practical.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 04, 2019, 11:20:58 AM

Plus I'm still stuck at work right now until they tell me I'm officially done, so I can't quit or walk out without forfeiting whatever severance they are going to give me.
Fuck that, if you find something you walk out on the spot. Bail on that sinking ship on the first lifeboat you find, let the captain go down with the ship. If you get a new job you'll get paychecks, how is that worse than severance? Yesterday you had every intention of working all year, all that's changed is the employer.

They just told you that they don't need you, you don't owe them another minute. You are 100% free to show up at a new job on monday. Just be kind enough to go in and collect your personal items over the weekend.

If you don't find something, stick around for the severance. Ranting aside, lets be practical.

I would prefer to still get that severance pay though.  60 days will be almost $16k.  That's a big chunk of free money to just walk away from.  I don't want to stick around in limbo indefinitely just for that, but it sure would suck to up and quit and leave $16k + 2 months of benefits on the table.  Depending on how the union negotiations go it might end up being more than 60 days (I'm not union, but I've been told ours will be comparable to what the union negotiates, 60 days is the legal minimum).
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: GuitarStv on April 04, 2019, 11:50:09 AM
Wow, that's a super duper asshole move by the company that hired you.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: NorthernMonkey on April 04, 2019, 11:50:41 AM
I'd be holding out for 2 months severence as well. You'll also be getting paid for all the time you're waiting. That could end up nearer 24 or 25k by the time the negotiations drag on
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: PDXTabs on April 04, 2019, 12:10:25 PM
Do you have to do anything while waiting for your final severance? Could you be studying for the PE while you wait?
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Prairie Stash on April 04, 2019, 12:18:58 PM
One of the clauses I've heard is severace can be 6 mos, less anything you earn at a new job. Its common to offer a severance with a clawback if you get a new job, the theory being you aren't out anything. If you were expecting to earn $100k this year, you'll earn $100k and not $116k. That's how my company works them.

Yours might be different, but I generally think big companies are jerks. It'll generally just work out as a longer vacation with no job on the back end.

In my view all you're walking from is a 60 day holiday; you'll either get paid from the old or new company. It's something to watch for when you get the details.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: arebelspy on April 04, 2019, 12:21:40 PM
That sucks. Sorry to hear it, man.

Hope you find something better.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Laserjet3051 on April 04, 2019, 12:32:33 PM
FN:

The same EXACT thing happened to me back in 2003, except that I moved 500 miles away to the new job, so was in a new city with a new mortgage when that bombshell hit. By some miracle or stroke of luck, I found new and comparable employment in, no joke, 2 weeks time. I'm not so sure the current employment landscape is so favorable. Good luck and stay determined/persistent!
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Mike in NH on April 04, 2019, 12:38:15 PM
Unforgivable. She got up in the meeting in front of some really important* senior leadership, said are you people effing kidding me, and walked out.

Ha! I hope that she got a good hiring bonus and severance package. I've seen that in real life, in fact the person was pretty excited.

@PDXTabs sadly she was a frontline worker. I would bet my 'stache she got no hiring bonus, and the black/white company line of you get two weeks severance per every year of employment...1 x 2 = 2. They'd probably try to spin it that they did her a favor by rounding her tenure up to a year haha. Only caveat is if she lawyered up.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: therethere on April 04, 2019, 12:56:12 PM
Potential 60days severance and unemployment? Take some time off and destress! Apply for jobs while your at your current job.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: protostache on April 04, 2019, 01:01:02 PM
Hey me too! Welcome to the club. I got some severance and we have a partial FIRE runway so I'm not super worried. It's just a huge slog interviewing for jobs. Good luck with the search!
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: mm1970 on April 04, 2019, 01:31:53 PM
Wow, that's a super duper asshole move by the company that hired you.
Yes, but... a lot of companies are fucking clueless and don't do it on purpose?

It sounds like your old place was a shit show anyway.  I'm pretty confident you'll find something soon - and something good too.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Cgbg on April 04, 2019, 01:58:38 PM

We are still pretty far away from FIRE.  NW is just above $500k including the house, so we need several $100k more.  I passed the FE exam in 2018, but I haven't taken my PE exam yet.  I've been planning to take it, but I thought I would be overloading myself to study for the PE while also getting into the groove of a new job.

So.... not sure how it works in your state, but my state required me to get a couple of PEs to vouch for me in writing. They had to be familiar with my work. If you are also required to do that in your application for the PE exam, you might want to find a couple of coworkers to keep in touch with that’d be willing to vouch for you when you’re ready.

Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: HPstache on April 04, 2019, 02:08:00 PM

We are still pretty far away from FIRE.  NW is just above $500k including the house, so we need several $100k more.  I passed the FE exam in 2018, but I haven't taken my PE exam yet.  I've been planning to take it, but I thought I would be overloading myself to study for the PE while also getting into the groove of a new job.

So.... not sure how it works in your state, but my state required me to get a couple of PEs to vouch for me in writing. They had to be familiar with my work. If you are also required to do that in your application for the PE exam, you might want to find a couple of coworkers to keep in touch with that’d be willing to vouch for you when you’re ready.

Yes, this was true for me in WA as well.  Also, there was a minimum of 4 years working directly for a P.E. required (technically 8 years, but university study can count for the first 4).
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 04, 2019, 09:02:40 PM
Do you have to do anything while waiting for your final severance? Could you be studying for the PE while you wait?

I still have a few reports needing to be done, and coordinating a few environmental related things, but my daily work load was slashed in half over night.  I think it's likely they will hire a consultant to take over.  My plan is to complete a couple of the reports just to gain the experience of working through them in case it's useful for a future job.  Other than that i'm hoping to spend my time updating my resume and applying to jobs.  And probably studying up to take the PE exam.

One of the clauses I've heard is severace can be 6 mos, less anything you earn at a new job. Its common to offer a severance with a clawback if you get a new job, the theory being you aren't out anything. If you were expecting to earn $100k this year, you'll earn $100k and not $116k. That's how my company works them.

Yours might be different, but I generally think big companies are jerks. It'll generally just work out as a longer vacation with no job on the back end.

In my view all you're walking from is a 60 day holiday; you'll either get paid from the old or new company. It's something to watch for when you get the details.

Is that more of a canadian thing?  I don't have the details yet but I was under the impression the severance was given after termination and is irrespective of my employment status with another company.  That's on my list of questions to get sorted out.


Hey me too! Welcome to the club. I got some severance and we have a partial FIRE runway so I'm not super worried. It's just a huge slog interviewing for jobs. Good luck with the search!

Yea I'm not super worried.  The severance should be able to last us 4-5 months, and I have another 4 months of expenses in savings.  We also have about  1.5 years of expenses in our taxable account.  Plus we have another 4-5 months of expenses in the HSA and roths if we get desperate.  We also don't have a mortgage. It's good to be mustachian, my situation could be a lot worse!  Still sucks to have to go through the interviews and deal with all the change.  Good luck to you as well.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 04, 2019, 09:13:02 PM

We are still pretty far away from FIRE.  NW is just above $500k including the house, so we need several $100k more.  I passed the FE exam in 2018, but I haven't taken my PE exam yet.  I've been planning to take it, but I thought I would be overloading myself to study for the PE while also getting into the groove of a new job.

So.... not sure how it works in your state, but my state required me to get a couple of PEs to vouch for me in writing. They had to be familiar with my work. If you are also required to do that in your application for the PE exam, you might want to find a couple of coworkers to keep in touch with that’d be willing to vouch for you when you’re ready.

I'm in michigan.  Michigan doesn't require anything to take the PE exam other than to pay the fee.  To obtain a license requires:

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/lara/engineers_licensing_guide_511839_7.pdf

Quote
Possess at least 4 years of acceptable engineering work experience obtained
after having received an acceptable bachelor’s degree.
        -Experience must be verified by 5 individuals familiar with the nature of
work performed of which 3 of the 5 individuals must be licensed
professional engineers.


I've not worked under the direct supervision of any PEs, but I've worked with multiple PEs.  I think my main hurdle to licensure is going to be passing the PE exam.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: ForeverPoor on April 04, 2019, 09:50:48 PM
Good luck. Start going after recruiters or have them come to you again.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Gone_Hiking on April 04, 2019, 10:33:56 PM
This sucks.  I'm so sorry.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: fuzzy math on April 10, 2019, 10:13:59 AM
This happened to me in a job I'd been at for 10 weeks (!!!) back in 2016. You will get through it and I hope find something that suits you much better. Until then feel free to dream of stabbing people
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: arebelspy on April 10, 2019, 12:22:58 PM
Until then feel free to dream of stabbing people

Smart.

Carrying on with his normal routine is good advice.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 11, 2019, 08:25:52 PM
Still no word on me getting laid off.   Hardly anyone is left.  I anticipate I will get my slip tomorrow, but it might be next week.  Details on anything are sparse, and even less has actually been put in writing, so I don't know the details of severance or benefits. I guess I'll just have to wait until they give me my paperwork to know exactly what's going to happen.

How does 401k vesting typically work in a situation like this?  I'm 0% vested, but given the situation it would be a real asshole move for them to take that back IMO. 
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: ilsy on April 11, 2019, 09:11:37 PM
Man, I wish my current job tells me that they no longer need my assistance. It would take off the pressure of me doing it, because I doubt I will go back to 9-5. I wish I had the confidence MMM is talking about to just jump into a life with no job.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 12, 2019, 10:12:25 AM
No pink slip today.  Apparently I'm needed for another week at least. 

The company is fucking vendors over and not paying them for services already rendered.  The crazy thing is they still need these companies to perform more services through the decommissioning process! Apparently they are under the impression you can just fuck those vendors over and then hire different ones (and I can only assume they have no intention of paying those vendors either because they are going to file bankruptcy).  I cannot in good conscious request any vendors to come perform work here without getting paid in full up front, and I won't. 
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: arebelspy on April 12, 2019, 10:26:29 AM
That's pretty terrible.

How goes the job search?
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 12, 2019, 10:53:22 AM
That's pretty terrible.

How goes the job search?

Slow.  I have asked a few people I know, and contacted the recruiter that found me this job (haven't heard back yet).  I've done a few searches, but haven't found anything that pays near what I want.  Lots of entry level positions open if I want to take a 50% pay cut though.  In the process of updating my resume, should have it finalized today and  I will start sending it off to additional recruiters.

Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: BicycleB on April 12, 2019, 12:10:00 PM
Good luck.

I'm no expert, but I read (What Color Is Your Parachute, random articles) that proactively searching companies rather than jobs is helpful. As in, somewhere there's a person who wants to hire a person exactly like you, but there's a 75% chance they haven't posted a job posting yet. If you research your field and contact a lot of people, you can find that person before they post and be first in line to get hired at full pay.

Responding to recruiters occasionally despite FIRE makes me think it's true. Recruiters are the blunt end of the spear. The sharp end is found proactively, because the funnel of who's looking is shaped differently. Not fast or magic, but excellent for your situation since you have months to search. Best wishes!!

PS. I always love your avatar. Very tasteful and stylish.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Hargrove on April 12, 2019, 11:35:58 PM
At the point they stop paying the bills, you may want to assume there could be no severance package at all.

0% 401k vesting is 0%. No doubt about it. If you want to keep it, get it in writing yesterday that they're vesting you.

As the last one on the boat, your only leverage is that they still think they need you. You only have that until you show up and the door's locked.

I doubt it's likely they vest the 401k, but if you want terms of your severance, you should get them immediately. Every day you don't do this, you're actually putting faith in them to do the right thing. Why?
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: scottish on April 13, 2019, 07:54:23 PM
At the point they stop paying the bills, you may want to assume there could be no severance package at all.

0% 401k vesting is 0%. No doubt about it. If you want to keep it, get it in writing yesterday that they're vesting you.

As the last one on the boat, your only leverage is that they still think they need you. You only have that until you show up and the door's locked.

I doubt it's likely they vest the 401k, but if you want terms of your severance, you should get them immediately. Every day you don't do this, you're actually putting faith in them to do the right thing. Why?

Yeah, I went through this with a company once.   Once they completed the bankruptcy filing, terminated employees became just another creditor.   I think most of them wound up with about 60 cents on the dollar of their severance pay.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 18, 2019, 10:17:54 PM
Got confirmation that I will not be vested and will be forfeiting my 401k company match.  The unvested portion is only a little over $1k, but it really cheeses me just on the principle.

Also they apparently underestimated the need for the environmental department moving forward, so I may be around another month or longer.  They don't want to keep anyone from taking another job though, so if anyone finds another job they've said they will lay them off at their request so they still get their 60 days of severance. 

It's not really severance, they are just keeping you on payroll for 60 days after your last day.  Last check will also include payout for unused vacation and sick time, so I have approximately 3 months of pay coming after my last day.  Benefits will continue for the entire 60 day period, then terminate at the end of that month.  If they keep me until May 1 I will have insurance through the end of July.

They said they might have additional severance on top of the 60 days pay, but I don't know if I believe them.  If they do it will be based on how long you've worked there, so only being there 6 months means I likely won't get much, if anything, even if they do follow through on it.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: BicycleB on April 19, 2019, 12:39:05 AM
To me that sounds like a really good severance deal.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: BookLoverL on April 19, 2019, 02:18:17 AM
It's always kind of sad to have to leave a job, even the places you were planning to leave in advance and thought you hated, I've found.

I'd stick around for the severance pay, but between now and then do everything possible to prepare you to find your next source of income. Though, depending on how you feel, you probably have the FU money to take a short sabbatical after you get the severance if you prefer.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Caroline PF on April 19, 2019, 10:32:52 AM
Got confirmation that I will not be vested and will be forfeiting my 401k company match.  The unvested portion is only a little over $1k, but it really cheeses me just on the principle.

I totally agree. As I understand it, the purpose of not vesting right away is to encourage people to stay and not leave, as it is more expensive to hire and train new people, than it is to keep your original people there.

So to my logical brain, if you are laid off, they should still pay it, since you're not leaving of your own volition. Unfortunately, I don't know of any company that operates on logic. Instead they operate on money, and won't pay any money that they don't legally have to.

Sorry for your situation.


Also, from your other post when you got the job:
I just got my first paycheck, and I thought it was a bit odd how they calculated the pay.  They do paychecks every 2 weeks, and each pay period runs from a sunday to a saturday.  I assumed since I was salaried and I worked one full week, that I would receive half of my fornightly income.  They apparently calculate it on a per day basis, so I got paid for all days after my start date, which means I got paid for 6/14 days (Mon-Sat).

File this knowledge away for the future. When you eventually quit, if your last day is a Friday, you'll lose another day's worth of pay. But if you make your last day a Monday, you'll be paid for an extra day.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 19, 2019, 12:04:09 PM
I likely won't have a choice when my last day is.  If I find another job and ask to be laid off, I will just extend it as far as possible, and if that puts my last day as a Friday then so be it.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Laura33 on April 22, 2019, 08:54:44 AM
Sorry for the bad luck and asshole company.  One thing to keep in mind:  the 60 days "severance" isn't really severance per se.  There is a federal law called the WARN Act (it's an acronym for something) that requires companies to provide 60 days' notice of a major employment action, like a mass layoff or plant shutdown.  IIRC, since they didn't provide 60 days' notice here, they are legally obligated to pay the affected employees for the full 60 days (a/k/a pay in lieu of notice).

Of course there are limitations and exceptions and such.  But that's probably why they are stiffing the contractors instead of the employees right now -- because they could be in big trouble with the feds if they don't pay their workers for the full 60 days.  They may still file bankruptcy, and inability to pay is one possible exemption; but that usually comes into play when the company files bankruptcy before shutting down, not after.

Tl;dr:  I wouldn't say the severance is "safe," but it is probably safer than severance that is required only by company policy.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: mm1970 on April 22, 2019, 10:44:34 AM
Sorry for the bad luck and asshole company.  One thing to keep in mind:  the 60 days "severance" isn't really severance per se.  There is a federal law called the WARN Act (it's an acronym for something) that requires companies to provide 60 days' notice of a major employment action, like a mass layoff or plant shutdown.  IIRC, since they didn't provide 60 days' notice here, they are legally obligated to pay the affected employees for the full 60 days (a/k/a pay in lieu of notice).

Of course there are limitations and exceptions and such.  But that's probably why they are stiffing the contractors instead of the employees right now -- because they could be in big trouble with the feds if they don't pay their workers for the full 60 days.  They may still file bankruptcy, and inability to pay is one possible exemption; but that usually comes into play when the company files bankruptcy before shutting down, not after.

Tl;dr:  I wouldn't say the severance is "safe," but it is probably safer than severance that is required only by company policy.
Yeah, this happened to me a couple of decades ago, WARN act and all.

I didn't get paid.

There was a class action lawsuit.

The company settled.

I got $75 worth of stock in the "new" company.  I wonder where that is?  Huh.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Dicey on April 22, 2019, 12:05:00 PM
Late to the party. I hope this story has a happy ending.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 23, 2019, 08:45:58 AM
Sorry for the bad luck and asshole company.  One thing to keep in mind:  the 60 days "severance" isn't really severance per se.  There is a federal law called the WARN Act (it's an acronym for something) that requires companies to provide 60 days' notice of a major employment action, like a mass layoff or plant shutdown.  IIRC, since they didn't provide 60 days' notice here, they are legally obligated to pay the affected employees for the full 60 days (a/k/a pay in lieu of notice).

Of course there are limitations and exceptions and such.  But that's probably why they are stiffing the contractors instead of the employees right now -- because they could be in big trouble with the feds if they don't pay their workers for the full 60 days.  They may still file bankruptcy, and inability to pay is one possible exemption; but that usually comes into play when the company files bankruptcy before shutting down, not after.

Tl;dr:  I wouldn't say the severance is "safe," but it is probably safer than severance that is required only by company policy.

Yes that's what it is.  However they gave everyone notice at the end of March.  The company has stated everyone will get 60 days of pay after their last day of work to be fair though.  Its not quite fair to lay one guy off immediately and still pay him for 60 days, but require me to continue working for 60 days then lay me off with no additional pay, so they are supposedly giving everyone the full 60 days after their last day to motivate us to continue working.  Some people may be around for up to a year after the closure.

EDIT:

I just spoke with my boss and it sounds like we both might be getting the boot soon.  He said it might be Friday for me.  I asked if he could extend it until May 1 for me, and he thinks he can.  Insurance will continue for 60 days, and since the insurance is paid for in whole month units, the insurance will expire at the end of the month of your 60th day.* So if I work May 1 I will continue to have insurance until July 31. I don't know if management is going to catch on to that and insist I be laid off by the end of the month to avoid providing me with an additional month of insurance, or if they will just let it slide.

*Yes I realize if you check the math that if I work May 1, and May 2 is my first of 60 days pay that my 60th day is actually June 30, and thus my insurance should end on that day and not go into July.  However, we all received letters from HR and it specifically states that if you work at a least a full day in the month that the coverage extends to the 3rd month, and they provide specific examples for the next 3 months (ie they explicitly state if you work May 1 your coverage extends until July 31).  You would think they would be on top of their shit and realize that statement is inconsistent with the rules they just laid out, but after seeing the way they run this company and the decisions they have been making I think it's equally, or maybe even more likely that it's a mistake and they forgot that some months have 31 days.  Either way I have it in writing so hopefully they can't renege on it.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: tryingtosave on April 24, 2019, 08:50:54 AM
Sorry to hear this. I actually got laid off twice in 3 years by 2 different companies so i know how you feel. 1st time i was offered a severance of 6 months pay but I didn't take it cause I actually found a better opportunity and they needed me to start right away. So instead of officially getting laid off, i had to quit. I wasn't happy to have to miss out on 6 months pay but I had no choice.

2nd time, the company went bankrupt. Same as you, they were required to pay us for 60 more days. Some people's job functions were not needed anymore so they got to go home and collect the 60 days pay without working. My function was needed although it really wasn't. I had to be in the office everyday to get my 60 days pay. This time i found another job and they were able to "wait" for me while i finish my 60 days. And there was no severance this time for anyone since they were bankrupted.

Yes the process sucks. I hate interviewing because it involves months of studying. With what I do, interviews are typically 1 round of HR, then 3 rounds of technical interviews of people drilling you for hours. But in the end, I am happy with the outcome and ended up in a much better position then if I didn't get laid off. So things happen for a reason, try to make the most out of it and come out ahead.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 26, 2019, 08:23:53 PM
The saga continues.  My boss told me today that he is pushing to keep me around until the end of May. 

I haven't had a formal job offer, or even an interview yet, but I've been contacted by multiple people that are interested.  My first interview for an engineering position is next week, and I anticipate I'll have several more lined up shortly after that.  It's actually looking like I might bail on the company and take a new job before they lay me off.  I should still receive my 3 months of pay even if I leave voluntarily.  Now I'm bummed that I may not get any time off between jobs.  I was looking forward to the "summer of nacho", but I suppose I will settle for gainful employment as well.  Time to get a hair cut I guess.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: LaineyAZ on April 27, 2019, 03:25:02 PM
It's good news that you have some nibbles out there.  Maybe negotiate at least a week off between jobs?  I agree it would be great to have a breather before you jump into the new one.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: pecunia on April 27, 2019, 03:51:15 PM
Madison Heights - That's close to Detroit City.  Sounds like a GM thing.

Good thing these are fairly good times.  That Fundamentals of Engineering may help you some.  Just yesterday, I had a conversation with a couple of good electricians.  They both said that they treat engineers like sh*t in this country.  They know how much the engineers make and, of course, how much they make.  They make much more when you consider per diem and such.  Overall, their jobs seem more secure too.

Engineers can get stuck in a niche field.  If that little piece of the pie goes away for some reason, too bad.

I sure wouldn't feel any loyalty to that company.  It sounds like they aren't giving you anything more than what they may be legally obligated to.

Things will turn out OK for you.  You are working to FIRE.  Burn me once shame on you.  Burn me twice shame on me.  Get that FU money put together and get yourself some independence from these yahoos.

Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Enigma on April 29, 2019, 02:00:15 PM
I was looking forward to the "summer of nacho", but I suppose I will settle for gainful employment as well.
If you find a better job, it wouldn’t hurt to ask them for a couple of weeks off for a summer vacation.  Plus you will have the severance pay even if it is unpaid vacation.  My company hired a new guy on Month the 8th of April.  He went on a planned vacation the week after and just got back.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 30, 2019, 07:37:23 AM
I was looking forward to the "summer of nacho", but I suppose I will settle for gainful employment as well.
If you find a better job, it wouldn’t hurt to ask them for a couple of weeks off for a summer vacation.  Plus you will have the severance pay even if it is unpaid vacation.  My company hired a new guy on Month the 8th of April.  He went on a planned vacation the week after and just got back.

That's the plan, although I might have to take what I can get.  I'd love to take like a month off.  I just don't want to take the time off then start looking, I'd like to secure something asap.

I have 2 confirmed interview times, and I'm expecting a call from 2 other firms.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: arebelspy on April 30, 2019, 07:43:35 AM
That's nice, especially while the job hunt continues.

It very well could be abrupt when it does come.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Indio on April 30, 2019, 07:50:19 AM


That's the plan, although I might have to take what I can get.  I'd love to take like a month off.  I just don't want to take the time off then start looking, I'd like to secure something asap.

I have 2 confirmed interview times, and I'm expecting a call from 2 other firms.
[/quote]

Keep in  mind that all of your colleagues (possibly with similar skills?) are going to be out looking for jobs at the same time so finding something before the severance and health insurance starts/ends will work to your advantage. You could always negotiate start date,  but having a confirmed offer before everyone else starts looking in earnest will help you.

Is your company going to offer outplacement assistance? Getting a resume review is always useful.

Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on April 30, 2019, 11:23:37 AM
Keep in  mind that all of your colleagues (possibly with similar skills?) are going to be out looking for jobs at the same time so finding something before the severance and health insurance starts/ends will work to your advantage. You could always negotiate start date,  but having a confirmed offer before everyone else starts looking in earnest will help you.

Is your company going to offer outplacement assistance? Getting a resume review is always useful.

There was only 1 other engineer and he has a new position at another plant.  There is only 1 other person in the environmental department, and he's not an engineer and our skills don't really overlap. 

The company is offering some services, but I think they are mostly aimed at helping the uneducated and unskilled workers.  I am going to an interview tomorrow that was set up as part of a job placement for all the displaced people here.  As far as I know I am the only actual engineer, and they have 2 engineering positions open. I'm sure people outside of the organization will be applying as well though. Don't know if I even want to work there, but it will be good interview experience.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: GuitarStv on April 30, 2019, 02:32:45 PM
it will be good interview experience.

Don't underestimate the importance of this.  I hate interviewing, and it often takes me three or four interviews before I start to remember to not make a fool of myself.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: pecunia on April 30, 2019, 06:45:22 PM
You may wish to get your name into these contract outfits, i.e. Randstadt, Aerotech, etc.  (headhunters) They make money placing people.  In a way they are on your side and in a way they aren't.  They want you to find a job.  If they find you a job, it is a paycheck to them.

They say rich people get rich by OPM (Other People's Money).  Money is time.  Headhunter's time could help you to find work.  It's a little like passive investing.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on May 01, 2019, 04:10:28 PM
it will be good interview experience.

Don't underestimate the importance of this.  I hate interviewing, and it often takes me three or four interviews before I start to remember to not make a fool of myself.

I've not been on many interviews. I've actually never interviewed anywhere without being offered a job.  Today may be a first.  They want to hire me at entry level. I was kind of perplexed because the place is a dirty shit hole and they seem to want an engineer with 13 years experience and my EIT to take an entry level position at $50k.  They had a pretty large range of salaries on the posted job and even the bottom end was no where near $50k.  I feel like that place is not off to a great start with me.

Edit: after further review the position she was talking about did have a bottom end around $50k.  The high end was $116k.  Seems like too large of a range to me.  The other one had a narrower, but still large salary band. 
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: pecunia on May 01, 2019, 06:49:41 PM
Uuuuh,....you might want to trim that mustache a bit before too many interviews.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Hargrove on May 01, 2019, 09:38:00 PM
I've heard many employers, desperate for computer technician employees, have no clue what they're asking for and, consequently, no clue what to pay. It wouldn't shock me if some engineers dealt with it, too.

If the company's bottom range was around what they offered you, I don't think it's even worth pointing out the qualities that make you better than "the most barely acceptable candidate" - it boils down to they're looking for a ridiculous deal, and are you it?
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on May 01, 2019, 09:42:25 PM
Ha.  I typically shave about once a month, and get a hair cut about every 6 months for some special occasion.  I got a hair cut and shaved this weekend, and even reshaved this morning so I'd look decent.

Got 2 more interviews next week.  One I applied to online, and listed 100k as desired salary and they emailed me the next day to schedule an interview, so that sounds pretty promising.  Also coincidentally my neighbor is in the same general field as me (environmental) and happens to work at that office - I did not know where he worked until after I mentioned I had a job interview.  Kind of funny in a weird way.  Maybe we could car pool?

The other interview is from a contractor I worked with at my current job.  He performs the job that I did for 12 years before I left to start my current position.  He liked working with me and needs people with my skill set, so has been trying to get me since he heard the news about the lay off.  I don't really want to get back into that work (lots of travel and time away from home), but I suppose I will hear them out and see what they have to offer.  I suppose I can deal with it if it is lucrative and can get me to FIRE in 5 years or less.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on May 01, 2019, 10:08:53 PM
I've heard many employers, desperate for computer technician employees, have no clue what they're asking for and, consequently, no clue what to pay. It wouldn't shock me if some engineers dealt with it, too.

If the company's bottom range was around what they offered you, I don't think it's even worth pointing out the qualities that make you better than "the most barely acceptable candidate" - it boils down to they're looking for a ridiculous deal, and are you it?

The person I interviewed with wasn't an engineer and didn't seem to know anything on the technical side.  She had a list of super specific questions, and I didn't know most of them.  I'm an expert in air quality, and not water (which is what this job was for).  Almost all of my water experience is on the education and theoretical side, and not so much in the real world.  So I wasn't expecting to jump right in and be managing projects or anything, but I also feel I am a little more qualified than "the most barely acceptable candidate" and could bring something to the organization.  Maybe the person who actually does the hiring will look my resume over and want to bring me in for another interview, or make me an offer above the absolute bottom of the range.  But maybe not.  I was expecting something between the minimum and where I'm at now.

I'm also shocked that they have such a large salary band for one title.  One person is going to be paid $50k, and another might be paid $116k?  That's a huge discrepancy and seems like maybe the position could be split into some more specific job titles with a narrower band of responsibilities and pay.  I also feel that if I took an entry level pay position that my chances of increasing my salary back up to what it is now will never happen with this organization. 
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: mm1970 on May 02, 2019, 02:20:07 PM
I've heard many employers, desperate for computer technician employees, have no clue what they're asking for and, consequently, no clue what to pay. It wouldn't shock me if some engineers dealt with it, too.

If the company's bottom range was around what they offered you, I don't think it's even worth pointing out the qualities that make you better than "the most barely acceptable candidate" - it boils down to they're looking for a ridiculous deal, and are you it?

The person I interviewed with wasn't an engineer and didn't seem to know anything on the technical side.  She had a list of super specific questions, and I didn't know most of them.  I'm an expert in air quality, and not water (which is what this job was for).  Almost all of my water experience is on the education and theoretical side, and not so much in the real world.  So I wasn't expecting to jump right in and be managing projects or anything, but I also feel I am a little more qualified than "the most barely acceptable candidate" and could bring something to the organization.  Maybe the person who actually does the hiring will look my resume over and want to bring me in for another interview, or make me an offer above the absolute bottom of the range.  But maybe not.  I was expecting something between the minimum and where I'm at now.

I'm also shocked that they have such a large salary band for one title.  One person is going to be paid $50k, and another might be paid $116k?  That's a huge discrepancy and seems like maybe the position could be split into some more specific job titles with a narrower band of responsibilities and pay.  I also feel that if I took an entry level pay position that my chances of increasing my salary back up to what it is now will never happen with this organization.

Yes, this is very true.  I would never take an entry level job.  For crying out loud, I've been working as an engineer since 1992!
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: couponvan on May 02, 2019, 06:56:12 PM
I'm just chiming in on the measly $1K 401(k) contribution.  If they're laying off more than 20% of the 401(k) plan participants, this is a partial plan termination where they are required to vest the participants 100%. 
https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plan-faqs-regarding-partial-plan-termination (https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plan-faqs-regarding-partial-plan-termination)

If their HR stinks, they should be reported to the DOL to determine whether a partial plan termination did in fact exist.  Also, if it's been a pattern an practice, the 20% can be amassed over a few year, vs. just one year. I hope this all works out for you and you end up in an even better position after the chaos.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on May 16, 2019, 06:48:42 PM
I applied to another consulting position online and put $100k as my expected salary.  Got called in for an interview straight away, and everything went great.  I liked them, they liked me.  Got a call back from the HR to discuss compensation.  They said that's too high for them, they can't justify paying me that salary with their billing rates.  They really like me and want me to come back for another interview, and it sounds like they definitely want to make me an offer, if only we could agree on compensation.  The HR lady said they want to make me an offer somewhere between $70-80k, but 80k would be the absolute max they could offer me.   That's significantly less than I am making now, and slightly less than I was making at my previous job.  I told them I'd have to think about. 

So now I'm conflicted and unsure what to do.  I told her I'd get back to her by the end of the week.  I'm unsure if the $80k is the max starting point offer they could make, or the absolute top period, she was unclear about it. 

I think I can find something that pays more, but what if I'm wrong?  I'd hate to pass up an opportunity that is at the top of my current potential.*  But I'd also hate to settle for a job, then abandon it within a couple months because I found something paying 10-20% more.  But also why would they expect me to stick around long term if they offer me 20-30% less than my asking price? I was fulling prepared for them to offer lower, then we'd go back and forth and settle on an acceptable salary, but it's a lot lower than expected.


*I worked at a consulting firm for 12 years, but the company did a very specific subset (stack testing/emissions testing) of consulting and I don't want to get back into just doing that.  I'd like to expand into a larger role, but don't have a lot of direct experience doing other consulting work so that's why I think I might not be able to command a higher salary right now.  I worked as basically an environmental manager at a facility for the past 7 months, and if I could find another role similar to that I think I could get more, but I've been mostly applying to consulting firms as there are way more of those jobs available within commuting distance of my house.

Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Prairie Stash on May 17, 2019, 11:22:24 AM
Your previous job sucked, its a bad dream. Your current job would be awesome if it wasn't laying you off. Neither of them matter, both are in the past.

If it was me I'd probably take it and continue looking for a few months. Then I'd get lazy and stop looking. After a few years I'd look at jumping, maybe not wait 12 years this time.

However, I assume that like Canada you are in probation for a certain number of months when switching jobs. During probation periods, no loyalty should be given to a company. People think of the probation period as the time a company can check you out, the opposite is also true. Try them and if you love them, stick around.

How many years of work do you have left? would it be okay working at an awesome place for a bit longer vs. getting paid more and being miserable? I don't think this is a job you'll have full time for 10 years; possibly 5 and then part time for benefits? I was recently offered part time and coast for a year; unfortunately it was a year too late or I would have accepted.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: mm1970 on May 17, 2019, 01:03:16 PM
Can you check online to see what people actually get paid there?
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: birdiegirl on May 17, 2019, 03:31:32 PM
How excited/interested are you in the job itself - aside from the money?  How would this position fit into your long term career plans? Do they have other bonuses/OT, etc. that could increase the total comp?

I was burned out and left my job a couple months ago and just accepted a FT consulting role at 30% less than my last job.   It certainly wasn't ideal but it should help me build up some parts of my resume that are lacking. It is generally 40hrs a week, so should allow for good work/life balance (I'll get  paid for any OT but clients generally don't want to pay it)

Since I'm not working right now, I figured it was worth taking even with the pay cut.  I'll give it a try and keep my eyes open for other roles that I might be interested in.  Could you do something similar?
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on May 17, 2019, 07:07:07 PM
The initial job wasn't too bad, I enjoyed it and I enjoyed the company culture.  It was when they sold to the larger firm and they tried to fuck me over that I didn't like it, and I ended up leaving about a year after that happened.  I think I have somewhere between 5-10 years left.  Hard to nail it down with so many variables.  How much will our spending increase with a kid? How much will it increase or decrease as we get older?  What will my salary be? $75k vs $95k is a pretty huge difference and I'll be saving $20k less per year.  I feel like I am racing to get to the finish line because having to deal with company acquisitions, and lay offs, company bullshit, and interviews is super stressful and I think that stress would be greatly eliminated if I had achieved lean FIRE.  Once we reach that I will likely continue to work to pad the stach so we can afford more luxury, like having a big vacation fund, paying for my sons college education, etc.  Or maybe continue to work part time for a little bit, if it's a low stress job, to pad the stach and keep benefits and transition into FIRE.

I'm not going to turn them down because I don't know what else I can get, but I have a lot of interested parties.  I was contacted by a recruiter for a position at a different consulting firm, for what sounds like a similar role, but maybe slightly more salary.   I also had another consulting firm contact me directly and wants to set up an interview, and that same contact gave me a couple of leads for environmental manager positions that I'm following up with. 

I checked online but the salaries listed are all over the map and I don't think they are reliable.

The position itself sounds pretty good, so does the company.  But maybe my opinion will change once I'm inside. It sounds like there is the potential for OT at straight time if I want it, but I don't know if I want to work any OT.  The whole idea of straight time OT seems like bullshit - they are providing me a whole bunch of expensive benefits along with my salary for the first 40 hours (health, dental, life insurance, HSA with company contribution, 401k w/match) for my total compensation, but if I work OT they aren't providing me with any additional benefits.  They are getting a sweet deal to only pay me straight time for OT.

I'm going back for a 2nd interview with the company next week.  I assume that the earliest they would present me with an offer could be immediately, and I would likely be able to request time to think about it until the following week, so hopefully I will have a better idea of what my other options are by that point and can make a more informed decision.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: pecunia on May 19, 2019, 07:44:21 PM
Engineers are considered a commodity in the United States.  You are but a cog in the machine.  I've been told that by some very smart people.

Here's something I was told by a very smart man just the other day.  If you go for top dollar, you will be one of the first to be let go.  However, you can use that top dollar during the free time you have between jobs.  If you take a bit less, the job may offer more stability for you.

I've been wondering if what the smart man said was true in the majority of situations.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: zolotiyeruki on May 20, 2019, 10:00:22 AM
The position itself sounds pretty good, so does the company.  But maybe my opinion will change once I'm inside. It sounds like there is the potential for OT at straight time if I want it, but I don't know if I want to work any OT.  The whole idea of straight time OT seems like bullshit - they are providing me a whole bunch of expensive benefits along with my salary for the first 40 hours (health, dental, life insurance, HSA with company contribution, 401k w/match) for my total compensation, but if I work OT they aren't providing me with any additional benefits.  They are getting a sweet deal to only pay me straight time for OT.
On top of that, OT cuts into your already-scarce disposable time, so therefore it should be more valuable to *you* as well!
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: mm1970 on May 20, 2019, 10:04:40 AM
Quote
The position itself sounds pretty good, so does the company.  But maybe my opinion will change once I'm inside. It sounds like there is the potential for OT at straight time if I want it, but I don't know if I want to work any OT.  The whole idea of straight time OT seems like bullshit - they are providing me a whole bunch of expensive benefits along with my salary for the first 40 hours (health, dental, life insurance, HSA with company contribution, 401k w/match) for my total compensation, but if I work OT they aren't providing me with any additional benefits.  They are getting a sweet deal to only pay me straight time for OT.

My husband gets this.  It's a sweet deal for the company, but also for him.  As an engineer, it's not uncommon to have busy times where you work overtime, or travel where you are working 12 hours a day.  He gets paid for that.

Plus he gets more put into his 401k.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: eostache on May 20, 2019, 06:10:55 PM
I just found out today that I can join in this thread. My job will be eliminated in 8 weeks, then I get 6 weeks severance pay. Already scoping out the UI benefits in my state. I'd only been at the job for a year, it was 1 year last week. Thankfully I have no debts, am comfortable on a shoestring budget, and have enough of a stash for over a year of expenses.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on May 21, 2019, 08:05:59 PM
I just found out today that I can join in this thread. My job will be eliminated in 8 weeks, then I get 6 weeks severance pay. Already scoping out the UI benefits in my state. I'd only been at the job for a year, it was 1 year last week. Thankfully I have no debts, am comfortable on a shoestring budget, and have enough of a stash for over a year of expenses.

Bummer man, that sucks.  I am freaking out a bit just because I hate change, and I hate going through the interview process and not knowing where I am going to end up and how I am going to like it.  I can't imagine how much I'd be freaking out if I also had to worry about being able to pay my bills.

Although I did do something stupid this week.  I had $6,900 in my checking account, and another paycheck hitting my account on thursday or friday, so I transferred $5k into my savings account not realizing I had 3 large CC payments going through between monday and thursday.  2 of the payments went through, so now I have $1200 left in my account, and a $1600 payment coming out tomorrow.  I tried to transfer some cash back, but I don't know if it's going to make it in time.  I may have to adjust my payment to be less than full, then follow up and finish it when the money hits.  Sucks because I will get dinged for interest on that whole balance for that month just because I paid less than full by the due date, even though I will pay it in full by the next day and I have plenty of money to pay it, it's just tied up in my savings account!  Fuck, probably going to be like $10+ in interested for that month. Hopefully the transfer shows up in my checking tomorrow and I can just pay it off and not worry about it.  Stupid mistake.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: pecunia on May 21, 2019, 08:35:59 PM
Yeh!  That's another thing about engineering jobs.  Straight time when approved.  Many times free time to get the job done.

We used to say, "Feel free to work the weekend!"

Some places will give you comp time for the extra hours worked.  Good luck with that.

I hope you got your banking worked out.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: arebelspy on May 22, 2019, 07:46:54 AM
Sounds like you'll make it to the beginning of June, Nacho?
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on May 22, 2019, 08:48:58 AM
Sounds like you'll make it to the beginning of June, Nacho?

No, May 27 is almost everyone's official last day.  Since that's a holiday, my actual last day of reporting to the office will be Friday May 24.  I should still be on the payroll until July 26 and my benefits will expire July 31.  I've been told that they could lay anyone off before the 27th, but if they want you to stay on after that date they have to notify you in writing with at least 1 weeks notice.  Since I never got any official notice, I'm assuming it's still the 27th.

Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: urmie on May 22, 2019, 04:34:35 PM
Can you check online to see what people actually get paid there?

I use Glassdoor.com. You can look up companies and then check the salaries tab to get an idea.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: mm1970 on May 22, 2019, 05:52:52 PM
Can you check online to see what people actually get paid there?

I use Glassdoor.com. You can look up companies and then check the salaries tab to get an idea.
It's good for more than just that.  A few years ago, a friend of mine asked me if I knew about company X, because she'd gotten an offer.

I said "I dunno, but on glassdoor, they suck."

Glassdoor was right.  She maybe lasted a year before she had to quit to save her mental health.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: arebelspy on May 23, 2019, 09:16:59 AM


Sounds like you'll make it to the beginning of June, Nacho?

No, May 27 is almost everyone's official last day.  Since that's a holiday, my actual last day of reporting to the office will be Friday May 24.  I should still be on the payroll until July 26 and my benefits will expire July 31.  I've been told that they could lay anyone off before the 27th, but if they want you to stay on after that date they have to notify you in writing with at least 1 weeks notice.  Since I never got any official notice, I'm assuming it's still the 27th.

Two days left then!

Any fun plans for the off time?
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on May 23, 2019, 09:23:27 AM


Sounds like you'll make it to the beginning of June, Nacho?

No, May 27 is almost everyone's official last day.  Since that's a holiday, my actual last day of reporting to the office will be Friday May 24.  I should still be on the payroll until July 26 and my benefits will expire July 31.  I've been told that they could lay anyone off before the 27th, but if they want you to stay on after that date they have to notify you in writing with at least 1 weeks notice.  Since I never got any official notice, I'm assuming it's still the 27th.

Two days left then!

Any fun plans for the off time?

Interviewing?  Got an interview this afternoon, and another one tomorrow.  Probably keep that train rolling until I got another full time job lined up. 

In the mean time I am pursuing getting my PE license. 
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on May 24, 2019, 09:29:18 AM
Got $5k severance, plus 60 days pay, plus my PTO paid.  I'll be getting a lump sum check for $29.8k next pay period and I'll have my benefits until July 31.

I asked about the 401k and partial plan termination.  I guess I'm on a different plan from the union guys. Also somehow my plan is not affected by the 20% layoff partial termination rule.  I'm not sure how that makes any sense, but I'm not sure there is anything I can do about it.  $1500 unvested I'll be forfeiting involuntarily.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Daniel on May 24, 2019, 09:40:19 AM
That's a bummer about losing the matching, but that's a pretty nice severance check! Good luck on prepping for your PE, I know that's a tough hill to climb!
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: couponvan on May 24, 2019, 10:42:36 AM
Got $5k severance, plus 60 days pay, plus my PTO paid.  I'll be getting a lump sum check for $29.8k next pay period and I'll have my benefits until July 31.

I asked about the 401k and partial plan termination.  I guess I'm on a different plan from the union guys. Also somehow my plan is not affected by the 20% layoff partial termination rule.  I'm not sure how that makes any sense, but I'm not sure there is anything I can do about it.  $1500 unvested I'll be forfeiting involuntarily.

You can send an inquiry to the DOL contact in your area - the DOL would likely be interested in a company that forfeits a bunch of peoples' money if in fact it is subject to the partial plan termination.  There is a lookback feature for 401(k) plans if there have been layoffs in the past several years that are all part of the same occurrence.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ebsa/about-ebsa/ask-a-question/ask-ebsa

They generally respond within 2 business days...If no one brings it to the DOL's attention, you have a almost 0% chance of getting the $.  The HR people are usually not that knowledgeable about the specialized rules of plans. If you bring it to the DOL's attention, and it is in fact a partial plan termination, you could be making $1,500 back. I'd say it was worth the time to ask the question.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Dicey on May 24, 2019, 11:33:54 AM
Got $5k severance, plus 60 days pay, plus my PTO paid.  I'll be getting a lump sum check for $29.8k next pay period and I'll have my benefits until July 31.

I asked about the 401k and partial plan termination.  I guess I'm on a different plan from the union guys. Also somehow my plan is not affected by the 20% layoff partial termination rule.  I'm not sure how that makes any sense, but I'm not sure there is anything I can do about it.  $1500 unvested I'll be forfeiting involuntarily.

You can send an inquiry to the DOL contact in your area - the DOL would likely be interested in a company that forfeits a bunch of peoples' money if in fact it is subject to the partial plan termination.  There is a lookback feature for 401(k) plans if there have been layoffs in the past several years that are all part of the same occurrence.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ebsa/about-ebsa/ask-a-question/ask-ebsa

They generally respond within 2 business days...If no one brings it to the DOL's attention, you have a almost 0% chance of getting the $.  The HR people are usually not that knowledgeable about the specialized rules of plans. If you bring it to the DOL's attention, and it is in fact a partial plan termination, you could be making $1,500 back. I'd say it was worth the time to ask the question.
This is great advice. Even if it doesn't work, a lump sum of $28.3k doesn't suck.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on May 24, 2019, 10:21:29 PM
Got $5k severance, plus 60 days pay, plus my PTO paid.  I'll be getting a lump sum check for $29.8k next pay period and I'll have my benefits until July 31.

I asked about the 401k and partial plan termination.  I guess I'm on a different plan from the union guys. Also somehow my plan is not affected by the 20% layoff partial termination rule.  I'm not sure how that makes any sense, but I'm not sure there is anything I can do about it.  $1500 unvested I'll be forfeiting involuntarily.

You can send an inquiry to the DOL contact in your area - the DOL would likely be interested in a company that forfeits a bunch of peoples' money if in fact it is subject to the partial plan termination.  There is a lookback feature for 401(k) plans if there have been layoffs in the past several years that are all part of the same occurrence.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ebsa/about-ebsa/ask-a-question/ask-ebsa

They generally respond within 2 business days...If no one brings it to the DOL's attention, you have a almost 0% chance of getting the $.  The HR people are usually not that knowledgeable about the specialized rules of plans. If you bring it to the DOL's attention, and it is in fact a partial plan termination, you could be making $1,500 back. I'd say it was worth the time to ask the question.

When I asked she had no idea and was not aware of the rule.  She said she'd check into it, then got back to me several hours later.  Hopefully she actually looked into and didn't just blow me off and lie about it.  Might be worth sending in an inquiry anyway.  They will probably know it's from me since I'm apparently the only one that has bothered to ask.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on May 28, 2019, 11:08:35 PM
Got a job offer for the EHS manager position at a medium sized company.  I'm expecting at least one other offer, but I don't think it's going to match this one.  $90k/yr with 3 weeks vacation. They also want me to start immediately, as in next Monday. I was really hoping to have some time off to relax and get shit done, and also study for the PE exam.  Guess I'll just jump right back in though.

Officially laid off Friday of holiday weekend, and have an offer letter in hand Tuesday morning.  Not too shabby I suppose.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Imma on May 29, 2019, 12:25:10 AM
Can't you just say you're available from September 1st? Would be nice to take the summer off knowing you've got a new job lined up.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Dicey on May 29, 2019, 02:30:26 AM
Wow! That's a fine MPP indeed.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: couponvan on May 29, 2019, 03:51:07 AM
 Congratulations! You can easily tell them you cannot start until 6/8 or 6/15. Even if they want you yesterday, a week or two won’t pull the offer. You may not be able to take much vacation when you are the new person...
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: UnleashHell on May 29, 2019, 04:16:15 AM
so now your biggest problem might be in how to avoid all the tax you might have to pay through earning too much this year.
any major medical expenses you can burn, max the 401k etc etc....
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: mm1970 on May 29, 2019, 11:39:20 AM
Got a job offer for the EHS manager position at a medium sized company.  I'm expecting at least one other offer, but I don't think it's going to match this one.  $90k/yr with 3 weeks vacation. They also want me to start immediately, as in next Monday. I was really hoping to have some time off to relax and get shit done, and also study for the PE exam.  Guess I'll just jump right back in though.

Officially laid off Friday of holiday weekend, and have an offer letter in hand Tuesday morning.  Not too shabby I suppose.
That's pretty sweet.
I'd ask to delay it a week. 
My last job change I only took 3 days off.  That was a mistake!
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: arebelspy on May 29, 2019, 02:58:01 PM
Congrats Nacho! :)
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: BicycleB on May 29, 2019, 04:27:45 PM
Well done, @frugalnacho! Happy for you (other than the rush).
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on May 29, 2019, 10:24:32 PM
Got another offer today, but as expected it's for less.  Insurance would be a little cheaper, but the commute would be 10 miles longer and 10 minutes longer each way.  I'm going to turn it down, even though they told me a start date of July 22 which would be awesome.

The place I'm going has some reports due by July 1, so they need. Someone ASAP. I might be able to delay another week, but probably not much longer.

Yes I will have a MPP of earning too damn much money this year. 

I also have a problem that my benefits expire July 31 and my new benefits won't kick in until 90 days.  I'm going to ride it out with no insurance.  I should have 60 days after July 31 to retroactively opt in for cobra coverage,so I'm gonna see how it goes. If I need it I'll get it, but most likely we'll just go 4-5 weeks with no insurance and not schedule anything during that time.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Need2Save on May 31, 2019, 08:12:43 AM
@frugalnacho congrats on the job offers and progress since you learned of this situation!

As @couponvan urged you, it's worth a call to the DOL if you think there is any chance that the employer laying you off has experienced over a 20% reduction (partial plan termination).  Obviously, it's the hard facts that matter (total number of employees there, termination rate this year and in prior years, number/% of employees who are being forced to forfeit match).  It's not unheard of for your HR rep to not know the ins and outs of what constitutes a partial plan termination, but it's a very real thing.  If you think your plant closing is a small portion of the larger company and there is no way the 20% threshold was therefore triggered, than I guess it's not worth the time. But if you are not sure - there is no harm in asking the DOL's benefits team to do some digging for you to hold the employer accountable.  I find that employers will respond in earnest when contacted by the DOL directly to avoid a big audit.

If you want to see the formula the company is supposed to use to determine if a partial plan termination has occured, go to this IRS page.
https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/partial-termination-of-plan (https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/partial-termination-of-plan)

You are also within your rights as a plan participant to ask the company to prove to you (ala show you the math with the formula named above) that the plan has not indeed experienced a partial plan termination this year with this plant closing. It's also possible for them to tell you that they cannot determine if a partial plan termination will occur this year until all facts play out for terminations yet to be decided upon this year. In otherwords, perhaps a partial plan termination has not yet been triggered with this plant closing, but if other terminations occur between now and then end of the year, then they may trip that line.  Not knowing how large your overall company is and how many people are being laid off makes this hard to determine from the outside.

Good luck with the new job!
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on June 06, 2019, 07:02:27 PM
Got $5k severance, plus 60 days pay, plus my PTO paid.  I'll be getting a lump sum check for $29.8k next pay period and I'll have my benefits until July 31.

I asked about the 401k and partial plan termination.  I guess I'm on a different plan from the union guys. Also somehow my plan is not affected by the 20% layoff partial termination rule.  I'm not sure how that makes any sense, but I'm not sure there is anything I can do about it.  $1500 unvested I'll be forfeiting involuntarily.

I thought I was going to get dinged big time on withholding for this check, but they actually split everything up.  I got my normal check, my $5k severance check, my PTO check, and my 60 days pay check all as separate direct deposits.  It looks like each one was considered individually for calculating withholding, so it ended up being far less than it otherwise would have been if it was a single lump sum.  Tomorrow morning I should have approximately one years worth of expenses in my checking account.

Definitely wish I had more time off. I haven't even gotten my entire garden in yet this year.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: pecunia on June 07, 2019, 07:12:44 PM


Definitely wish I had more time off. I haven't even gotten my entire garden in yet this year.

I was always told when a lot of OT rolled around to make it while you can.  Lately, I've begun to wonder.  I missed about 12 hours over the Memorial Day weekend and was definitely happier not being there.

The people who used to advise me on such matters would have said, "There will be many more years and many more gardens."  There are a lot of things beyond money.  Once the time is gone, you can't get it back.

At any rate, your new job should be fun for a while and maybe even offer more.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: highplainsdrifter on June 09, 2019, 04:41:53 PM
No, May 27 is almost everyone's official last day.  Since that's a holiday, my actual last day of reporting to the office will be Friday May 24.  I should still be on the payroll until July 26 and my benefits will expire July 31.  I've been told that they could lay anyone off before the 27th, but if they want you to stay on after that date they have to notify you in writing with at least 1 weeks notice.  Since I never got any official notice, I'm assuming it's still the 27th.
[/quote]

I was laid off on May 24th as well. How funny. Apparently Memorial Day weekend 2019 will be about the memories of unemployment for us.

Congrats on landing a new job so quickly. That's impressive. I haven't had as much luck. I'm about to start my third week of unemployment tomorrow. I have a couple leads on jobs but man... Interviewing has been ridiculous and recruiters are ridiculous. I've been learning a lot about how companies hiring processes work. I dislike how long some companies hiring processes take. I was talking with a company, where my hire seemed imminent for nearly three months, then I was told that they 'cancelled' the position and won't be hiring...

I was lucky enough to receive six months of severance pay. I imagined this time off would be more relaxing but truly I'm a bit stressed out. I really dislike not being productive. I hope I land a job soon so that I can 'stache a majority of the severance cash.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Schaefer Light on June 10, 2019, 04:37:57 PM
I haven't had as much luck. I'm about to start my third week of unemployment tomorrow. I have a couple leads on jobs but man... Interviewing has been ridiculous and recruiters are ridiculous. I've been learning a lot about how companies hiring processes work. I dislike how long some companies hiring processes take. I was talking with a company, where my hire seemed imminent for nearly three months, then I was told that they 'cancelled' the position and won't be hiring...

I was lucky enough to receive six months of severance pay. I imagined this time off would be more relaxing but truly I'm a bit stressed out. I really dislike not being productive. I hope I land a job soon so that I can 'stache a majority of the severance cash.
I don't have any great advice, but I wish you the best in your search.  I just went through a 4-month stretch of unemployment, and it was incredibly stressful.  The worst part was the total lack of feedback.  I'd get rejected for a job and wonder why.  Of course, no one bothers to tell you 99% of the time.  I'd wake up every day wondering what I needed to do differently to get a job.

And the interview and hiring process can be very drawn out at some companies.  The job I eventually landed had a process that took about 2 months start to finish.  I went through 3 rounds of interviews and then had to travel to their HQ location to give a presentation, only to have to wait 3 more weeks to finally get the offer.

I'm glad you got a decent severance.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on June 10, 2019, 08:00:27 PM
I was laid off on May 24th as well. How funny. Apparently Memorial Day weekend 2019 will be about the memories of unemployment for us.

Congrats on landing a new job so quickly. That's impressive. I haven't had as much luck. I'm about to start my third week of unemployment tomorrow. I have a couple leads on jobs but man... Interviewing has been ridiculous and recruiters are ridiculous. I've been learning a lot about how companies hiring processes work. I dislike how long some companies hiring processes take. I was talking with a company, where my hire seemed imminent for nearly three months, then I was told that they 'cancelled' the position and won't be hiring...

I was lucky enough to receive six months of severance pay. I imagined this time off would be more relaxing but truly I'm a bit stressed out. I really dislike not being productive. I hope I land a job soon so that I can 'stache a majority of the severance cash.

Bummer, but 6 months severance sounds sweet.  My checking account is looking fat right now.  I had 2 months notice before I was actually laid off, so it took me over 2 months to actually secure a new one.  The place I ended up had a ridiculous hiring process.  Basically wanted to hire me on the spot, but waited until the following business day to give me an offer. Still waiting to hear back from a couple of places though...
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Fire2029 on June 10, 2019, 08:14:56 PM
Sorry to see this, I hope it leads to a new/better opportunity for you.

@ megacorp when my old office was shuttered, at the time of the announcement there was a woman who had been hired on from a solid/stable job at a competitor the week before. Nothing like knowingly doing that to someone for the benefit of not upsetting the herd and tipping your hand with some sort of respectable behavior like a hiring freeze.

Unforgivable. She got up in the meeting in front of some really important* senior leadership, said are you people effing kidding me, and walked out.


*Not important, just think they are

I worked for a megacorp on an acquisition spree of smaller companies. Part of my job was to figure out how fast we could replace their IT systems with ours, and align the local IT department to the smaller demand. Part of the job was having to lay off people, typically because their leadership already saw the writing on the wall and jumped.

I had to lay off the same lady twice in 2.5 years. We bought a company, I laid her off since we were replacing their ERP with ours, and then 2.5 years later I got sent to a new acquisition to evaluate their IT and she was my first meeting. I felt worse than usual laying her off. We did count her time at the other company when calculating her severance, so she got paid severance (4 weeks per year) for that job twice.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: rantk81 on June 11, 2019, 08:25:47 AM
I had to lay off the same lady twice in 2.5 years. We bought a company, I laid her off since we were replacing their ERP with ours, and then 2.5 years later I got sent to a new acquisition to evaluate their IT and she was my first meeting.

Holy shit!  I don't think I could handle that.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: mm1970 on June 11, 2019, 11:02:04 AM
I had to lay off the same lady twice in 2.5 years. We bought a company, I laid her off since we were replacing their ERP with ours, and then 2.5 years later I got sent to a new acquisition to evaluate their IT and she was my first meeting.

Holy shit!  I don't think I could handle that.

We did that to a woman too.  We had a few years of a series of layoffs.  Laid off almost all our junior engineers.  A few months later one of the ones we'd kept quit.  Hired back one of the ones we'd laid off.  6 months or a year later, another round of layoffs.  There she goes again.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: pecunia on June 11, 2019, 12:19:29 PM
Seems like it's always like that with engineers.  Boeing loses a contract and out the door. 

Is it like that with accounting people?  The only mass layoff I ever heard of for accountants was when Enron folded and dragged Arther Anderson down with them.

They talk about this STEM thing and there being a shortage, but I sometimes wonder if that's just to give the guys in charge more cannon fodder.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: rantk81 on June 11, 2019, 01:32:14 PM
When companies merge, they look for "synergy savings" -- which is redundant roles that are shared between the two companies that merged.  It doesn't just affect engineers.  It can hit anyone -- HR, IT, accounting, legal, engineering/development, sales... anyone.

If your employer (like mine) is habitually involved in merging with or acquiring other companies -- then layoffs are a pretty regular thing.  Lord only knows how it's possible I've survived 15 years at this place so far!
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: pecunia on June 11, 2019, 03:02:49 PM
When companies merge, they look for "synergy savings" -- which is redundant roles that are shared between the two companies that merged.  It doesn't just affect engineers.  It can hit anyone -- HR, IT, accounting, legal, engineering/development, sales... anyone.

If your employer (like mine) is habitually involved in merging with or acquiring other companies -- then layoffs are a pretty regular thing.  Lord only knows how it's possible I've survived 15 years at this place so far!

"Synergy Savings" - I guess that takes the sin out of throwing someone out on their keester.

My present employer is rapidly growing.  We had 8 guys just a few years back and now we are up to 40.  I wonder at what point does a small company lose its nimbleness.  It sure does seem like big companies waste a lot of human capital.  I'll bet many of those laid off folks would have been happy to fill another job if the money people in charge would have paid for some training.

Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: highplainsdrifter on June 13, 2019, 07:37:32 PM
I haven't had as much luck. I'm about to start my third week of unemployment tomorrow. I have a couple leads on jobs but man... Interviewing has been ridiculous and recruiters are ridiculous. I've been learning a lot about how companies hiring processes work. I dislike how long some companies hiring processes take. I was talking with a company, where my hire seemed imminent for nearly three months, then I was told that they 'cancelled' the position and won't be hiring...

I was lucky enough to receive six months of severance pay. I imagined this time off would be more relaxing but truly I'm a bit stressed out. I really dislike not being productive. I hope I land a job soon so that I can 'stache a majority of the severance cash.
I don't have any great advice, but I wish you the best in your search.  I just went through a 4-month stretch of unemployment, and it was incredibly stressful.  The worst part was the total lack of feedback.  I'd get rejected for a job and wonder why.  Of course, no one bothers to tell you 99% of the time.  I'd wake up every day wondering what I needed to do differently to get a job.

And the interview and hiring process can be very drawn out at some companies.  The job I eventually landed had a process that took about 2 months start to finish.  I went through 3 rounds of interviews and then had to travel to their HQ location to give a presentation, only to have to wait 3 more weeks to finally get the offer.

I'm glad you got a decent severance.

I heard back from a company today that I had been working with for two months and got feedback. They said I impresses everyone I interviewed with, I'm "above" the position I applied for and I would get "bored" working in that department in a month. They want to hire me in the finance department. Great news, right? Well, they don't yet have a finance department. They are working on creating one and my hire would be contingent of them hiring a director of finance first. Who knows how long it will take to hire a director of finance and then how long it will take for them to hire a team after that...

So the new dilemma is; wait around for this company to spin up a finance department or continue applying for other jobs?

The weird challenges that pop up as a job seeker never cease to amaze me.

~~

P.S. I can't believe that after THREE interviews you had to travel to HQ and do a presentation in order to get hired. WTF did you have to present, your Excel skills?! Why can't companies make up their minds? Anyone here work in HR or management and want to illuminate hiring challenges?
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: highplainsdrifter on June 13, 2019, 07:42:21 PM
I was laid off on May 24th as well. How funny. Apparently Memorial Day weekend 2019 will be about the memories of unemployment for us.

Congrats on landing a new job so quickly. That's impressive. I haven't had as much luck. I'm about to start my third week of unemployment tomorrow. I have a couple leads on jobs but man... Interviewing has been ridiculous and recruiters are ridiculous. I've been learning a lot about how companies hiring processes work. I dislike how long some companies hiring processes take. I was talking with a company, where my hire seemed imminent for nearly three months, then I was told that they 'cancelled' the position and won't be hiring...

I was lucky enough to receive six months of severance pay. I imagined this time off would be more relaxing but truly I'm a bit stressed out. I really dislike not being productive. I hope I land a job soon so that I can 'stache a majority of the severance cash.

Bummer, but 6 months severance sounds sweet.  My checking account is looking fat right now.  I had 2 months notice before I was actually laid off, so it took me over 2 months to actually secure a new one.  The place I ended up had a ridiculous hiring process.  Basically wanted to hire me on the spot, but waited until the following business day to give me an offer. Still waiting to hear back from a couple of places though...

I guess it's awesome they wanted to hire you right away. No waiting around wondering what is going on. However is that a red flag? Is the company not well staffed? Are they bad at planning for future needs? I hope this company works out well for you and leads you to sweet sweet financial freedom.

It was a nice feeling to see the severance hit the checking account. However I'm worried I'll need it to cover expenses for the next six months. I wish I could use it to buy a new bike, max out the Roth and save up for an investment property.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on June 14, 2019, 08:33:48 AM
I was laid off on May 24th as well. How funny. Apparently Memorial Day weekend 2019 will be about the memories of unemployment for us.

Congrats on landing a new job so quickly. That's impressive. I haven't had as much luck. I'm about to start my third week of unemployment tomorrow. I have a couple leads on jobs but man... Interviewing has been ridiculous and recruiters are ridiculous. I've been learning a lot about how companies hiring processes work. I dislike how long some companies hiring processes take. I was talking with a company, where my hire seemed imminent for nearly three months, then I was told that they 'cancelled' the position and won't be hiring...

I was lucky enough to receive six months of severance pay. I imagined this time off would be more relaxing but truly I'm a bit stressed out. I really dislike not being productive. I hope I land a job soon so that I can 'stache a majority of the severance cash.

Bummer, but 6 months severance sounds sweet.  My checking account is looking fat right now.  I had 2 months notice before I was actually laid off, so it took me over 2 months to actually secure a new one.  The place I ended up had a ridiculous hiring process.  Basically wanted to hire me on the spot, but waited until the following business day to give me an offer. Still waiting to hear back from a couple of places though...

I guess it's awesome they wanted to hire you right away. No waiting around wondering what is going on. However is that a red flag? Is the company not well staffed? Are they bad at planning for future needs? I hope this company works out well for you and leads you to sweet sweet financial freedom.

It was a nice feeling to see the severance hit the checking account. However I'm worried I'll need it to cover expenses for the next six months. I wish I could use it to buy a new bike, max out the Roth and save up for an investment property.

I think the spot I filled was not staffed.  Guy quit very abruptly.  They have some environmental reports due by the end of June, so they basically had a month to find and hire his replacement, and get these environmental reports done. 

Also this is not a large company with well defined roles and job descriptions.  It's more like a small company that has grown to be medium sized.  As far as I can tell they don't have officially policies on a lot of stuff.  I guess it seems to work for them...until someone quits and you gotta figure out wtf that guy was doing and everything he had a hand in.  On the one hand I'm regretting the decision because I don't think I'm ever going to get a clearly defined job description with my responsibilities laid out.  On the other hand that gives me some flexibility to just do whatever I want, and being a smart, motivated, and highly competent person (IMO) I will likely thrive as long as I can keep pace with the regulations and not let something big slip through the cracks.  However there might be some things that slip through the cracks just because I'm not completely aware of everything that needs to be done.  Hopefully I'll have a much better idea after being here for a few months rather than just 4 days.  Also hopefully something doesn't happen outside of my control that gets the finger pointed at me.  Like if our wastewater sampling results come back above permit limits I may get the finger pointed at me even though it's entirely out of my control.  I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

I also haven't see my boss yet other than the first day.  He just showed me where my office was, and that was that.  No direction, no instructions.  So I'm just trying to figure stuff out on my own, and trying to comb through my predecessors old emails and files and piece things together.  Also browsing MMM and reddit when I get sick of that, because no one seems to be watching over anything I do.

I'm still leery about how this is going to work out, so I beefed up my savings account.  I may get fired, or may have to quit, or this place might get shut down, I have no idea.  Ideally it will be profitable and I will have a stable job with steady income until retirement, but anything can happen and I definitely didn't enjoy going through this whole process.  Even though it worked out fantastically for me, it was super stressful and I was worried about money and how me and my family were going to come out of it (I knew we weren't going to starve, but the thought of depleting my savings, and then selling my taxable account, and eventually dipping into retirement savings in the 401k/IRAs was a scary thought).  I now have $23k in my savings account, which should be at least 8 months of spending at our current level, and probably more in the even of a layoff/firing where we tighten our belt.  Having a bigger cushion in the savings account makes me sleep a little better, but I also feel like I'm approaching the point of being too conservative and I should be investing that money instead of parking it in a savings account.  Maybe I'll feel more comfortable about it 6 or 12 months down the road.

For now I've put $23k in my savings account, maxed me and my wife's tIRA for the year, and dropped the rest into my taxable vanguard account (sitting around $60k right now). 


Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on June 14, 2019, 08:54:34 AM
I haven't had as much luck. I'm about to start my third week of unemployment tomorrow. I have a couple leads on jobs but man... Interviewing has been ridiculous and recruiters are ridiculous. I've been learning a lot about how companies hiring processes work. I dislike how long some companies hiring processes take. I was talking with a company, where my hire seemed imminent for nearly three months, then I was told that they 'cancelled' the position and won't be hiring...

I was lucky enough to receive six months of severance pay. I imagined this time off would be more relaxing but truly I'm a bit stressed out. I really dislike not being productive. I hope I land a job soon so that I can 'stache a majority of the severance cash.
I don't have any great advice, but I wish you the best in your search.  I just went through a 4-month stretch of unemployment, and it was incredibly stressful.  The worst part was the total lack of feedback.  I'd get rejected for a job and wonder why.  Of course, no one bothers to tell you 99% of the time.  I'd wake up every day wondering what I needed to do differently to get a job.

And the interview and hiring process can be very drawn out at some companies.  The job I eventually landed had a process that took about 2 months start to finish.  I went through 3 rounds of interviews and then had to travel to their HQ location to give a presentation, only to have to wait 3 more weeks to finally get the offer.

I'm glad you got a decent severance.

I heard back from a company today that I had been working with for two months and got feedback. They said I impresses everyone I interviewed with, I'm "above" the position I applied for and I would get "bored" working in that department in a month. They want to hire me in the finance department. Great news, right? Well, they don't yet have a finance department. They are working on creating one and my hire would be contingent of them hiring a director of finance first. Who knows how long it will take to hire a director of finance and then how long it will take for them to hire a team after that...

So the new dilemma is; wait around for this company to spin up a finance department or continue applying for other jobs?

The weird challenges that pop up as a job seeker never cease to amaze me.

~~

P.S. I can't believe that after THREE interviews you had to travel to HQ and do a presentation in order to get hired. WTF did you have to present, your Excel skills?! Why can't companies make up their minds? Anyone here work in HR or management and want to illuminate hiring challenges?

Definitely keep applying.  Until you have an acceptable offer letter in hand you should keep marching on.  Some of the jobs I thought were in the bag seemed to either drag on, or fizzle out.  Worst case scenario you get an offer that you deem acceptable, and you can bring it back to this company and see if they can hire you in before the finance department is up and running, or if they can expedite that process for you.  If they can't then at least you have an offer to fall back on.  And if they still want to hire you a couple of months down the line, or whenever they get their department up, they can hire you at that time (or you can just stay with the other job if you've already accepted).  There is really no downside to continuing to look other than maybe wasting a few hours of your time, and maybe wasting some minor resources (you'll drive to an interview, maybe do another load of laundry because you sweated through your dress shirts, etc).

As for companies not making up their minds...I think sometimes corporate has an established way of doing things.   If it's official company policy to require 3 interviews AND a final presentation at HQ, then those are the hoops you must jump through.  My first company was a small time (less than 10 employees and the owners worked there) company, and the hiring policy was super lax.  If they liked someone they had full discretion to hire them, sometimes without an interview or with only a super informal 3 minute interview.  Once they sold to a larger company, that company had procedures in place.  We needed to fill a spot, but company policy said we had to post the job on a couple specific websites, and interview a minimum number of candidates, and interview the top candidates a minimum number of times.  Even though we already have a resume in hand for someone they knew they wanted to hire, corporate makes every office strictly follow this procedure, even though it drags on for weeks while the office is short staffed and the desired candidate is twiddling their thumbs wishing they had a job.  Then the last company I went to I had to phone interview, then in person interview twice.  The second in person interview was a waste of time, we simply bullshitted and talked sports and food trucks and other bullshit.  I'm convinced they like me, knew they wanted to hire me, but corporate policy dictated that they bring me in for a third interview (2nd in person interview) before hiring me.  I got my offer letter almost immediately after the interview, so I'm sure they had it all typed up and ready to go and were just ticking a box for corporate so they could say they conducted 3 interviews as per company policy.

This place I'm at now seems to operate similarly to my first company.  There is no corporate, just one dude that owns the whole company and has an office here, so they can just do whatever they want.  They got a referral for me, interviewed me briefly, and wanted to hire me.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: Schaefer Light on June 16, 2019, 02:42:37 PM
I haven't had as much luck. I'm about to start my third week of unemployment tomorrow. I have a couple leads on jobs but man... Interviewing has been ridiculous and recruiters are ridiculous. I've been learning a lot about how companies hiring processes work. I dislike how long some companies hiring processes take. I was talking with a company, where my hire seemed imminent for nearly three months, then I was told that they 'cancelled' the position and won't be hiring...

I was lucky enough to receive six months of severance pay. I imagined this time off would be more relaxing but truly I'm a bit stressed out. I really dislike not being productive. I hope I land a job soon so that I can 'stache a majority of the severance cash.
I don't have any great advice, but I wish you the best in your search.  I just went through a 4-month stretch of unemployment, and it was incredibly stressful.  The worst part was the total lack of feedback.  I'd get rejected for a job and wonder why.  Of course, no one bothers to tell you 99% of the time.  I'd wake up every day wondering what I needed to do differently to get a job.

And the interview and hiring process can be very drawn out at some companies.  The job I eventually landed had a process that took about 2 months start to finish.  I went through 3 rounds of interviews and then had to travel to their HQ location to give a presentation, only to have to wait 3 more weeks to finally get the offer.

I'm glad you got a decent severance.

I heard back from a company today that I had been working with for two months and got feedback. They said I impresses everyone I interviewed with, I'm "above" the position I applied for and I would get "bored" working in that department in a month. They want to hire me in the finance department. Great news, right? Well, they don't yet have a finance department. They are working on creating one and my hire would be contingent of them hiring a director of finance first. Who knows how long it will take to hire a director of finance and then how long it will take for them to hire a team after that...

So the new dilemma is; wait around for this company to spin up a finance department or continue applying for other jobs?

The weird challenges that pop up as a job seeker never cease to amaze me.

~~

P.S. I can't believe that after THREE interviews you had to travel to HQ and do a presentation in order to get hired. WTF did you have to present, your Excel skills?! Why can't companies make up their minds? Anyone here work in HR or management and want to illuminate hiring challenges?
As for companies not making up their minds...I think sometimes corporate has an established way of doing things.   If it's official company policy to require 3 interviews AND a final presentation at HQ, then those are the hoops you must jump through. 
That's it in a nutshell.  It sucks for the candidate they're going to hire and it royally sucks for the candidates they're not going to hire.  Imagine taking the time to put together a 45-minute presentation, traveling to a different state to give the presentation, and then not getting the job.  The whole time I was going through the process I kept telling myself that there was at least a 50% chance they would choose someone else.  I was trying to prepare for the rejection so I wouldn't go off the deep end if someone else got the job.  I'm glad I didn't have to put that preparation to the test.  I was pretty depressed at the time, and that kind of rejection really would have hurt.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: pecunia on June 17, 2019, 05:08:01 AM

- SNIP -

That's it in a nutshell.  It sucks for the candidate they're going to hire and it royally sucks for the candidates they're not going to hire.  Imagine taking the time to put together a 45-minute presentation, traveling to a different state to give the presentation, and then not getting the job.  The whole time I was going through the process I kept telling myself that there was at least a 50% chance they would choose someone else.  I was trying to prepare for the rejection so I wouldn't go off the deep end if someone else got the job.  I'm glad I didn't have to put that preparation to the test.  I was pretty depressed at the time, and that kind of rejection really would have hurt.

This hiring thing is definitely a very strong reason to obtain FU money. 
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: protostache on June 17, 2019, 08:24:04 AM

- SNIP -

That's it in a nutshell.  It sucks for the candidate they're going to hire and it royally sucks for the candidates they're not going to hire.  Imagine taking the time to put together a 45-minute presentation, traveling to a different state to give the presentation, and then not getting the job.  The whole time I was going through the process I kept telling myself that there was at least a 50% chance they would choose someone else.  I was trying to prepare for the rejection so I wouldn't go off the deep end if someone else got the job.  I'm glad I didn't have to put that preparation to the test.  I was pretty depressed at the time, and that kind of rejection really would have hurt.

This hiring thing is definitely a very strong reason to obtain FU money.

I landed my dream job after getting laid off back in April. I'm hoping it will carry us to FI in five years (it's a late stage pre-IPO startup) primarily so I don't ever have to deal with the hiring process as a candidate ever again.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: zolotiyeruki on June 17, 2019, 08:24:59 AM

- SNIP -

That's it in a nutshell.  It sucks for the candidate they're going to hire and it royally sucks for the candidates they're not going to hire.  Imagine taking the time to put together a 45-minute presentation, traveling to a different state to give the presentation, and then not getting the job.  The whole time I was going through the process I kept telling myself that there was at least a 50% chance they would choose someone else.  I was trying to prepare for the rejection so I wouldn't go off the deep end if someone else got the job.  I'm glad I didn't have to put that preparation to the test.  I was pretty depressed at the time, and that kind of rejection really would have hurt.

This hiring thing is definitely a very strong reason to obtain FU money.
Heh.  Last year, I interviewed with a company in February for an immediate opening...contingent on a contract coming through.  After five months of nothing, DW and I figured it just wasn't going to happen.  Then out of the blue, I got an offer at the end of August, over six months after my on-site interview.

We were still really excited about the job (the offer arrived during dinner, and our kids were wondering why Dad and Mom suddenly started acting weird), but couldn't reach an agreement on salary with the employer, so we had to pass.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: jinga nation on June 17, 2019, 12:18:41 PM

- SNIP -

That's it in a nutshell.  It sucks for the candidate they're going to hire and it royally sucks for the candidates they're not going to hire.  Imagine taking the time to put together a 45-minute presentation, traveling to a different state to give the presentation, and then not getting the job.  The whole time I was going through the process I kept telling myself that there was at least a 50% chance they would choose someone else.  I was trying to prepare for the rejection so I wouldn't go off the deep end if someone else got the job.  I'm glad I didn't have to put that preparation to the test.  I was pretty depressed at the time, and that kind of rejection really would have hurt.

This hiring thing is definitely a very strong reason to obtain FU money.
Heh.  Last year, I interviewed with a company in February for an immediate opening...contingent on a contract coming through.  After five months of nothing, DW and I figured it just wasn't going to happen.  Then out of the blue, I got an offer at the end of August, over six months after my on-site interview.

We were still really excited about the job (the offer arrived during dinner, and our kids were wondering why Dad and Mom suddenly started acting weird), but couldn't reach an agreement on salary with the employer, so we had to pass.
Which is why, during the initial conversation, I give them a salary range that I'm comfortable with*. I tell them I don't want to waste HR and Management's and Engineer's time, let's get to the point. If they think I'm asking too much, I explain to them how I can justify it (e.g. based on the job description, that's wearing 3 diff hats, but I'm asking only 50% more than you're will to pay. So it's a great deal, unless you are willing to hire 2 additional people, in which case, good luck with your search).
*Occupation and experience and a FU stash required to pull this off.

Also, I don't waste time with contingent contracts. Their HR just wants your resume on the bid so they can win; it's no guarantee you'll get the job, at least in the industry I work in. "Tell me you have a real contract that needs to be staffed to deliver the outcome for your customer. If you have a performance or deliverables bonus, I can help you achieve it."
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: zolotiyeruki on June 17, 2019, 10:20:57 PM
Heh.  Last year, I interviewed with a company in February for an immediate opening...contingent on a contract coming through.  After five months of nothing, DW and I figured it just wasn't going to happen.  Then out of the blue, I got an offer at the end of August, over six months after my on-site interview.

We were still really excited about the job (the offer arrived during dinner, and our kids were wondering why Dad and Mom suddenly started acting weird), but couldn't reach an agreement on salary with the employer, so we had to pass.
Which is why, during the initial conversation, I give them a salary range that I'm comfortable with*. I tell them I don't want to waste HR and Management's and Engineer's time, let's get to the point. If they think I'm asking too much, I explain to them how I can justify it (e.g. based on the job description, that's wearing 3 diff hats, but I'm asking only 50% more than you're will to pay. So it's a great deal, unless you are willing to hire 2 additional people, in which case, good luck with your search).
*Occupation and experience and a FU stash required to pull this off.

Also, I don't waste time with contingent contracts. Their HR just wants your resume on the bid so they can win; it's no guarantee you'll get the job, at least in the industry I work in. "Tell me you have a real contract that needs to be staffed to deliver the outcome for your customer. If you have a performance or deliverables bonus, I can help you achieve it."
Those are some great points.  In this particular instance, it wasn't a huge deal for me to wait around for 6 months.  Many of the reasons I started looking for a new job (i.e. things that bothered me about my current job) had gone away, and really, I do enjoy my current job.  I had also received a raise (and when I got the offer, my current employer offered to beat it by a few percent).  The offer I received was significantly lower than I had expected--I have a friend who works there, and he was likewise that the offer wasn't higher.

It's all good :)
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on June 20, 2019, 05:37:36 AM
What a thread! Definitely enjoyed reading all replies and Nacho's story. Glad you found a new job--congrats! (Not so glad about your garden, but I think you can take care of that during weekends?)

I got the garden in.  I bought 6 tomato plants, and 4 pepper plants.  Did seed for everything else - cucumber, yellow squash, zucchini, and sunflower.  Everything is in, and the watering system is set up.  I need to make some time to tend it and weed it, but at least it's in and growing.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: eostache on June 24, 2019, 06:17:21 PM
My layoff is still pending, for July 12. A couple of my co-workers seem to want to try to convince management not to let me go.

I had a week vacation recently and one of them took over my tasks for the week, and he would be the one to take them over when I am gone. He's overqualified to do my job but he understood, and found out, that my projects are a full time job. Plus, another key employee is leaving the dept and he has a heavy workload that the aforementioned co-worker's job partner will be taking over. So coworker may have to have his, mine, and partner's work to do. Both these guys see that my role is very important.

I'm of two minds. I'm ok with getting laid off and slacking for a few months (life is short, I have a lot of bikes to ride) and it would be nice to keep getting a regular paycheck even though I am super bored there and it feels like it takes up 90% of my life even though I only work 40 hours.
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: highplainsdrifter on July 10, 2019, 08:10:01 AM
Well, my month and a half stint of unemployment is soon coming to an end. Also, I accidentally stumbled across a magic phrase to use while negotiating with companies.

I had two final round interviews with companies last week. The first one gave me a somewhat low offer by the end of the week. To which, I'd decided that I wasn't in a hurry to sign immediately. The second one asked for my college transcripts on the following Monday. I let the second company know that I had another offer and asked for an update on their hiring process. The second company then let me know that I shouldn't sign anything until I see both offers and that they would expedite their offer process in order to deliver an offer the following business day. At that point, I asked the first company to extend their acceptance period due to another offer that I had. The first company then told me that they'd change the title in order to raise the salary $11k! This amount was above and beyond their previously stated top end of the salary range for the role.

Thus, when timed properly, the magic words when negotiating employment contracts is, "I have another offer".

I'd never seen companies move quickly to expedite their offer process or give an offer that was above their previously stated top end salary range. Hopefully other Mustachians can find a way to utilize the magic words if they find themselves in a similar situation.

Now I need to figure out which company I'm going to work for. Hmmm. Quite an interesting problem to have.

Thanks to this thread. Going through lay offs can be tough. There were certainly times while combing through job boards that I was questioning my whole education and career choice in finance.

Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: frugalnacho on July 10, 2019, 09:06:07 AM
Well, my month and a half stint of unemployment is soon coming to an end. Also, I accidentally stumbled across a magic phrase to use while negotiating with companies.

I had two final round interviews with companies last week. The first one gave me a somewhat low offer by the end of the week. To which, I'd decided that I wasn't in a hurry to sign immediately. The second one asked for my college transcripts on the following Monday. I let the second company know that I had another offer and asked for an update on their hiring process. The second company then let me know that I shouldn't sign anything until I see both offers and that they would expedite their offer process in order to deliver an offer the following business day. At that point, I asked the first company to extend their acceptance period due to another offer that I had. The first company then told me that they'd change the title in order to raise the salary $11k! This amount was above and beyond their previously stated top end of the salary range for the role.

Thus, when timed properly, the magic words when negotiating employment contracts is, "I have another offer".

I'd never seen companies move quickly to expedite their offer process or give an offer that was above their previously stated top end salary range. Hopefully other Mustachians can find a way to utilize the magic words if they find themselves in a similar situation.

Now I need to figure out which company I'm going to work for. Hmmm. Quite an interesting problem to have.

Thanks to this thread. Going through lay offs can be tough. There were certainly times while combing through job boards that I was questioning my whole education and career choice in finance.

congrats!
Title: Re: I'm getting laid off
Post by: pecunia on July 10, 2019, 10:37:30 AM
You guys are certainly right about these potential employers behaving like kids and candy when someone else is looking at their candy.  It was some years back that I was looking for a job.  I had two interview opportunities in another state.  The companies were fairly close to one another so I called both of them to have them split the travel cost.  I was just trying to be nice.  I needed work and was grateful for the interview opportunities. I can't remember how we split the cost, but I did end up getting offers from both.

I picked the wrong one.  They had problems.  I had a good contract offer after a year and left.  A few years later they were bankrupt and their bones have been swallowed by two other companies in the intervening years.  The other is a huge successful company.