Author Topic: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!  (Read 5774 times)

debtaholic

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I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« on: December 17, 2018, 08:01:39 PM »
Hello MMM Community,

My name is James, I’m 34 & I am a debtaholic.

I was directed to MMM a while back by a good friend of mine – I’ve always envied his financial freedom and outlook on life. He’s a smart cat.

I’m posting here for the first time as I’m starting a mission to improve my finances (and life) and I’m hoping the collective insights of this forum can help me out. I apologize if the “general” forum area is the wrong place to post and will remove and copy to the correct forum section if needed! I figure I definitely don’t belong in “share your baddasity” and what I’m taking on is probably not a "challenge" for the financially fit on this forum.

Heads up that this is a pretty lengthy rant, but in my attempt to solicit some advice from the awesome people of MMM I want to ensure I have all the info and data you may require.

Short (long?) Story:

To this point I’ve really enjoyed life! I am happy go lucky by nature. I live in a great part of the world with a loving partner and a potpourri of good friends. My big problem is I’ve been heading down a rough financial road and NEED to change ASAP before it catches up with me in the worst way. We are hoping to have kids in 3-5 years so I’m on the cusp of being in a really tough place unless I make immediate and lasting changes.

Debt kind of crept up on me over the last few years. Primarily from travel. I love to travel and have funded trips solely through credit cards (yes stupid) and student loan debt (even more dumb). I have somewhat of an anti-consumer mindset (I buy clothes at salvation army, I don’t own a flatscreen tv, I own a cheap hatchback with great mileage, I try and cycle everywhere and buy cheap groceries) but the combination of travel debt and sporadic income has left me in a precarious position.

Metrics:

   Current Bad Debt:    $35k (credit cards, car loan, line of credit, student loan)

   Current Income:    Total (very approx.) $45k
            1 – Summer gig worth 20k (2500/week for 8 weeks)
            2 – Marketing Consulting work worth 15k ($400/week)
            3 – Misc. personal training 10k ($100-200 some weeks)

   Current Expenses:    I can live frugally & pay off debt interest with some principle at approx.. $2000k / month (my rent is $900, debt & principle approx.. $500, car ins/grocery etc $600) but typically I'm around $2500 when factoring in travel & eating out (usually just beers with friends once a week)

   Education & Exp   1 – Economics Degree
                            2 – Random and sporadic experience in recreation, tourism & marketing.

It’s really hard establishing long term fiscal goals as my income is super precarious, and has been, for the past 5 years. The only real stable income is a summer gig I’ve worked for the last 5 years.

Potential Solutions:

I go round and round evaluation potential solutions to sorting out my life, and establishing a responsible and logical route to financial freedom. It's reached kind of a tipping point lately with very real responsibilities on the horizon. Namely, I need to sort my $hit out!

Below are 3 potential "life paths" that have made sense to me.

   Solution #1 – Keep trying to find the “perfect” career ( getting in the way of good )

This is the “loop” I’ve been in for the last 5 years. I don’t have a true career “passion” and have struggled hard to find one. I run in loops between “testing” out different jobs and careers and have not yet been able to settle down. My ideal of a “perfect” career that I love is getting in the way of having a good job, stable income and responsible finances.

The solution here is “clinging” to a meager income and a lot of debt while I seek to find the perfect career and then dedicate myself to a very focused path that likely includes more higher education and crappy lowly paid work over the next several years (and that’s IF I can identify something I “love”). Clearly not working so far (And I’ve been trying to years) and KILLING my finances.

I have sort of a "pie in the sky" view that there is a "perfect" career for everyone and you must do what you love. I loved athletics (my passion in university) but nothing in way of a career path has ever stuck. For me the ideal career satisfies 3 core components. I've never found something that does for me.

A) Mechanism is real (The actual nature of the work is "real". For example; I enjoy marketing and coding but I don't consider this "real". It's just working within an artificial system. Personal training or carpentry or nature conservation etc. is "real" but lack other core components.)

B) Application is honorable. Most jobs can be applied in an honorable way (example; you can do marketing or web development for clean energy or an animal advocacy group)

C) Mastering a hard skill. This is especially important to me. I enjoy the HR work that I do in the summer but I definitely don't feel like I'm mastering a hard skill and becoming a real expert.

Other minor things for me are: autonomy of the position (can you consult? can you freelance? Is it available everywhere so you can be flexible and move/travel?), job demand, salary potential (not a big deal to me but has to be somewhat there)

Anyway I've been driving myself mad considering all my options and it's been driving my income and earning potential into the ground. Some options that satisfy MOST of these are;

Digital Marketing: lacks a "real" component & feels kind of shallow. Seems cool, creative, analytical at high level but lots of unaware lower level "specialists" and low barriers to entry force you to "self-market" which I hate. Analytics and data visualization within marketing look cool but likely require $$ for education & primary job availability for big corporations.
Recreation Management: lacks a "mastery" component and very rigid/government type work. very political and nepotistic. Have worked in this field and find in generally boring.
Web Development: lacks a "real" component and I feel I would be unsatisfied as a 50 year old programmer. Also don't want to spend my life in front of a bunch of code.
Personal Training: lacks a "mastery" component and PTs seem a dime a dozen so getting solid work would be tough. Some smart, cool people but also a lot of uneducated, chest puffing people.
GIS (spatial analysis): job prospects tough, education expensive, hard to find "honorable" application (lots of big corporations using spatial data for marketing but out of the realm or need for the "little guy")

I've also considered economic development, economist, city planner & teacher but all of these would require a HUGE investment of time & money in education and even then who knows if I would enjoy them as much as the former positions.

GOAL: In 2-3 years i've figured out my dream career and I'm halfway to being credentialed in it. Still in debt but have a path to get out of it. 2-3 more years I'm a 40 year old professional and paying off debt.

   Solution #2 – Pick the most sensible career path and focus on it.

This is sort of the foundation of my new direction. I’ve hooked up with a friend in the last couple months and have been learning and consulting in Digital Marketing (it’s one of several career paths I’ve considered and the one I've dabbled with in the last 5 years). It’s not my “perfect” career but has elements of stuff I really enjoy (analytical, creative) & can best leverage my education and experience to gain better paid work in the near future.

The upside is it is a BIG profession so you can kind of locate a nice niche (like analytics) and there are tons of SMEs (smaller organizations) that are looking for digital marketing generalists and specialists. I also have a head start here with an Econ Degree as well as some studying under my belt for professional certification.

The drawback is it could involve some work I find annoying and meaningless (advertisement copywriting and social media management) if I try to make my way initially as a generalist (on principle I hate the culture of always looking at your phone and feel I would be, in some way, involved in this as a marketing professional)

The plan here would be to continue with my current part-time income while immersing myself in consulting, interning & learning in attempts to gain a full time income stream from marketing ASAP and grow my part-time consulting stream.

GOAL: In 2-3 years be in a better debt or debt free position on my way to a career in marketing. 

   3 – I focus 100% on income.

I could hit up some contacts in the tourism industry tomorrow and fill my agenda with multiple gigs and part-time work. I could work as a tour guide, bus driver, teachers assistant, tutor, personal trainer etc. for lower wages ($15-20/ hour) but have near unlimited work.

This path would involve working hard and long hours for lower wages but a higher net total income in the short term until I get out of debt and hit a certain savings target (10-20k) before I make any long term career decisions.

GOAL: Get out of debt in 2-3 years and refocus my career path as a 37 year old with a little bit of money and no debt.


If you've read this far I hope I have at least entertained you! I'm happy to answer further questions. I'm dedicated to a path that gets me out of this debt situation. I'll be posting regularly with updates and hope that I can also contribute in other meaningful ways to this forum.

Cheers,

James

use2betrix

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2018, 08:11:34 PM »
Have you read all the blog posts?

debtaholic

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2018, 08:24:04 PM »
Not every one but I am working my way through them ferociously over the last 3 weeks.

The "Real Cost of Commuting" made the first major impact to my current situation and was a great one!

I've really defined my 3 potential paths (above) in light of all the MMM and frugal philosophy but the final step of committing to one of these paths is still up in the air. ie. which part of the "life mix" do I dedicate to career, education & income (ie. aggressive debt elimination)

In terms of listening to MMM, reading the blog & reading the forum posts I have already taken significant steps to saving and eliminating expenses. I think for me the bigger concern is a long term income approach.

letired

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2018, 08:36:04 PM »
You seem like a prime candidate for the book So Good They Can't Ignore You by Cal Newport. It has helped me a lot while I struggled with similar questions about 'what I want to be when I grow up'.

Also. For some people, there is One True Thing. For others, there isn't. For some people, its easy to translate their One True Thing into a career. For others, it isn't.

And while you've discussed three paths, none of them are exclusive of any of the others. You might decided you want to be out of debt asap and focus on making as much money as you can for the next few years, then switch to something else. You might decide to continue to find One True Thing, and rack up debt, but decide to make a more 'sensible' move later. But really, go read that book. Most libraries will have it.

And for myself, I picked a middle road between all your options. I picked something I was reasonably sure I'd enjoy doing every day, something that built on my pre-existing skillset, something that paid well, and something that gave me the opportunity to use that skill in many different contexts, at least some of which are a general benefit to humanity. I'm not changing the world or anything, but I feel good about what I'm doing.

debtaholic

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2018, 08:58:36 PM »
Thanks!

This book is available at my local library so that's awesome (it's a small library so surprising). I can already tell by the synopsis this could be a helpful read.

I am leaning towards the, "middle of the road" option but frequently get pangs of, "WTF am I doing."

Thanks for the recommendation!


You seem like a prime candidate for the book So Good They Can't Ignore You by Cal Newport. It has helped me a lot while I struggled with similar questions about 'what I want to be when I grow up'.

Also. For some people, there is One True Thing. For others, there isn't. For some people, its easy to translate their One True Thing into a career. For others, it isn't.

And while you've discussed three paths, none of them are exclusive of any of the others. You might decided you want to be out of debt asap and focus on making as much money as you can for the next few years, then switch to something else. You might decide to continue to find One True Thing, and rack up debt, but decide to make a more 'sensible' move later. But really, go read that book. Most libraries will have it.

And for myself, I picked a middle road between all your options. I picked something I was reasonably sure I'd enjoy doing every day, something that built on my pre-existing skillset, something that paid well, and something that gave me the opportunity to use that skill in many different contexts, at least some of which are a general benefit to humanity. I'm not changing the world or anything, but I feel good about what I'm doing.

kei te pai

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2018, 10:17:21 PM »
So you have a loving partner, and you mention thinking about having children in a few years. Yet when I read your thoughts and options for the future, she seems invisible!
If the plan is children and a life together, it seems to be these are joint rather than individual plans to be making.
What does she do? What is her income/debt? How to you envisage balancing out work and childcare? Seems to me that these are going to be factors that should be in your thinking for the future.

debtaholic

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2018, 12:11:22 AM »
Yes for sure and definitely a good observation.

I'm just a little hesitant to go into detail about my partner as: A) I think there are enough "me" specific issues here to tackle & B) This is my first time opening up about a personal challenge on an online forum so probably a little paranoid about bringing my spouses info into the mix.

She is definitely factored in to my decision making process!

Freedomin5

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2018, 01:56:39 AM »
If I were in your position, I would focus on getting out of debt first (so option #3) as a short-term goal (1-2 year goal), while figuring out what I want to do longer term (3-5 year goal).

In addition, with regard to mastery, you will have chest-puffing people in every field. There is no perfect field full of perfect people. And in any field, you can work hard to develop mastery and become the best/most valuable in that position. PTs are a dime a dozen, but not all PTs are created equally. Some are way more knowledgeable. Some can work with the most ornery, uncooperative clients. Some of have much better bedside manner than others. Some can work with unique or rare disorders/problems. So focus on yourself and don't look at the other people in the field.

For example, if you enjoy personal training, become the best one out there. What would a typical client consider best? One that understands how the body works in a deep way. One that can tailor exercises to body types. One that can solve problems. One that is holistic. For example, if the client is doing all the exercises properly and still not losing weight, a good personal trainer can help figure out what's going on, but that requires knowledge of metabolism or whatnot. An excellent personal trainer is one that motivates without being mean -- someone with good "bedside manner" but can balance that with high standards. It's maybe someone who can work with people who have injuries or other reasons for modified exercises, and it's one that knows how to modify the exercises so that the client still gets results without injuring themselves. I would so those are all very challenging skills/knowledge that require mastery. And when you gain that mastery, you will also likely make a high income as people would be willing to pay for your in-depth and specialized skill set.

debtaholic

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2018, 02:29:34 AM »
Thanks for the feedback!

That's actually a really good point. I didn't mean to knock personal training specifically - I just wanted to point out some of what has been preventing me from "diving in" to each given career I've considered.

You're right in regards to the people in any given profession. I just get the sense that in some like PT or Marketing you have a larger core group of "chest puffers" due to the lower barriers to entry.





If I were in your position, I would focus on getting out of debt first (so option #3) as a short-term goal (1-2 year goal), while figuring out what I want to do longer term (3-5 year goal).

In addition, with regard to mastery, you will have chest-puffing people in every field. There is no perfect field full of perfect people. And in any field, you can work hard to develop mastery and become the best/most valuable in that position. PTs are a dime a dozen, but not all PTs are created equally. Some are way more knowledgeable. Some can work with the most ornery, uncooperative clients. Some of have much better bedside manner than others. Some can work with unique or rare disorders/problems. So focus on yourself and don't look at the other people in the field.

For example, if you enjoy personal training, become the best one out there. What would a typical client consider best? One that understands how the body works in a deep way. One that can tailor exercises to body types. One that can solve problems. One that is holistic. For example, if the client is doing all the exercises properly and still not losing weight, a good personal trainer can help figure out what's going on, but that requires knowledge of metabolism or whatnot. An excellent personal trainer is one that motivates without being mean -- someone with good "bedside manner" but can balance that with high standards. It's maybe someone who can work with people who have injuries or other reasons for modified exercises, and it's one that knows how to modify the exercises so that the client still gets results without injuring themselves. I would so those are all very challenging skills/knowledge that require mastery. And when you gain that mastery, you will also likely make a high income as people would be willing to pay for your in-depth and specialized skill set.


Freedomin5

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2018, 04:54:02 AM »
Thanks for the feedback!

That's actually a really good point. I didn't mean to knock personal training specifically - I just wanted to point out some of what has been preventing me from "diving in" to each given career I've considered.

You're right in regards to the people in any given profession. I just get the sense that in some like PT or Marketing you have a larger core group of "chest puffers" due to the lower barriers to entry.





If I were in your position, I would focus on getting out of debt first (so option #3) as a short-term goal (1-2 year goal), while figuring out what I want to do longer term (3-5 year goal).

In addition, with regard to mastery, you will have chest-puffing people in every field. There is no perfect field full of perfect people. And in any field, you can work hard to develop mastery and become the best/most valuable in that position. PTs are a dime a dozen, but not all PTs are created equally. Some are way more knowledgeable. Some can work with the most ornery, uncooperative clients. Some of have much better bedside manner than others. Some can work with unique or rare disorders/problems. So focus on yourself and don't look at the other people in the field.

For example, if you enjoy personal training, become the best one out there. What would a typical client consider best? One that understands how the body works in a deep way. One that can tailor exercises to body types. One that can solve problems. One that is holistic. For example, if the client is doing all the exercises properly and still not losing weight, a good personal trainer can help figure out what's going on, but that requires knowledge of metabolism or whatnot. An excellent personal trainer is one that motivates without being mean -- someone with good "bedside manner" but can balance that with high standards. It's maybe someone who can work with people who have injuries or other reasons for modified exercises, and it's one that knows how to modify the exercises so that the client still gets results without injuring themselves. I would so those are all very challenging skills/knowledge that require mastery. And when you gain that mastery, you will also likely make a high income as people would be willing to pay for your in-depth and specialized skill set.


You’ll find chest puffers even in fields with high barriers of entry. I’m in one such field and think that at least half of the people are kind of full of BS. Just focus doing a good job in whatever you’re doing, and people will see the quality of your work. And then you will get referrals and repeat customers. And then you’ll be so busy you have to keep raising prices to curtail demand.

fell-like-rain

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2018, 06:20:24 AM »
I definitely get your feeling of having several different things you want to optimize at work but having trouble getting them all. If I was to give my 3 categories, it'd probably be enjoyment, positive impact, money. Right now the tradeoff I'm making is being in a field that I like OK and has some impact, but pays really well (probably a common theme in FI circles). However, I also do volunteer tutoring with schoolkids, which pays nothing and can be pretty hard work, but makes me feel like I'm really making a difference. And in the future, hopefully I'll be able to downshift to lower-paid work I enjoy more while keeping up with the volunteering.

Anyways, that's a roundabout way of saying "if you can't get everything you want from one job, what compromises can you make?" I.E. taking something not ideal for the meantime, maybe doing other (paid/unpaid) work on the side for more fulfillment, and planning a career change in the future.

Laura33

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2018, 07:50:26 AM »
My impression is that you've been sold a bill of goods.  A job that is tangible, that does good in the world, that allows you to continue to grow, that is interesting, and that provides autonomy?  And that presumably allows you time off to travel and pursue your other interests?  Doesn't exist -- and if it did, it would pay peanuts, because there would be SO many people clamoring to do it. So you need some priorities:  since you can't have everything, rank your various desires, and then focus on career paths that meet the top couple.

You have a degree in economics, so you know how the laws of supply and demand work.  The way people make money is usually (1) by having a particular talent that is highly valued by people with money, and working their ass off to develop that talent to the maximum extent possible, or (2) by being able to tolerate/handle some difficult/annoying job that needs to be done.  For (1), think pro athlete; for (2), think of the guy who made millions by founding a trash collection company.  So:  what skill do you have that is better than your competition -- what advantage can you offer that makes you valuable to an employer?  And/or what can you do that others find either impossible or impossibly dull? 

The other aspect of this is that almost all career paths suck rocks when you are at the bottom of the totem pole.  But you have to suck it up and work your ass off in order to develop your skills and flesh out your weaknesses.  I am hearing a lot of impatience here -- try something, oops, it doesn't meet one of my criteria right out of the gate, move on to something else.  That's not the way things work.  No one is going to spot your fantastic potential as a new hire and give you all of the fun work and development opportunities you crave; you need to deal with the scut work while you prove yourself, so they will trust you with more fun and challenging stuff.  So focus on what the work might be in 5 years, not what it is right now.

Finally, do not believe you have to satisfy all of your life's goals through your job.  Some people do, and that's great.  But for many others, the job is something to pay the bills while they pursue their passions in other areas.  I get the feeling you fall into the latter category.  So focus your career search on efficiency:  what can give you the highest pay for the least time/effort?  So, for example, I am not a fan of option 3 -- you might need to suck it up and take whatever work you can for a few years to get out from under the debt, but the problem with that is you end up exhausting yourself running around at scut jobs just to pay the bills, and you don't have free time to enjoy yourself or develop the skills that might bring you a better, higher-paying job.  Long-term, you're much better off with a job that pays you more per hour, because that gives you more time to do more fulfilling things. 

To give you a little context:  I never knew what I wanted to do when I grew up.  As in, senior year of college most available jobs sounded boring, so went to law school.  Loved law school (intellectual challenge), but most types of practice sounded either boring or impossible to do and still have a life, so figured I'd go start with a big firm so I could rotate if I didn't like my first option (Rule #1, when you have various choices, start with the one that pays a buttload of money, because you can always drop down if you don't like it).  Ended up in a geeky complex regulatory area, and it turned out I liked it, but then figured I'd go work for a nonprofit in a few years to do good in the world.  But after a few years, I was surprised to discover that my big corporate clients were not actually out to rape and pillage -- they were normal people just like me, and they just wanted to understand what they needed to do to comply.  So I stayed.  Were there times that were boring and hard?  Oh, hell yes.  Honestly, being an associate kinda sucks, because you have to work your ass off, and you are always subject to someone else's schedule, and you don't always get the big view.  OTOH, being a partner kinda rocks.  I'm still subject to someone else's schedule, but now it's my client's schedule, and I am actually in charge of figuring out how to solve their problem, which to me is the fun part, because it's both challenging and satisfying -- and best of all, when I need some kind of boring research or document review, I have associates I can outsource that kind of thing to.  ;-)  And, yeah, there are days it's still boring, because it's still a job, not a vacation.  But overall, it still beats anything else I can think of -- certainly on a dollars-per-unit-of-effort basis. 

The reason I say all of this is because I got to the happy point only by sucking it up and throwing myself into the job even when I wasn't sure that was what I wanted.  I had certain advantages going in:  I'm smart, I write very well, and I have the ability to actually enjoy something that normal people find intolerable (regulatory interpretation).  That was enough to get me through the door into a well-paying career.  But it wasn't enough to get me where I am today; I had to get past my preconceived notions (companies are evil!), learn to deal with some boring shit that I would happily never do again, and work my ass off to prove my worth -- including both improving my innate skills and getting a whole lot better at the things I naturally suck at (attention to detail, communicating effectively with more linear thinkers).  Basically, you have to stay in one area long enough to develop both your skills and your boss' trust in those skills, because that is what opens the door to the more fun -- and more lucrative -- stuff. 

So, in short:  Option 2.  But don't just choose "sensible" in terms of "stable and pays enough."  Choose something that uses your brain, where the people above you do more interesting stuff that you can see yourself doing in a few years (without dying of boredom).  It doesn't need to be forever -- that's the brilliance of MMM, you only need to work for 10-15 years or so, depending on how much you can cut expenses and save.  So focus on "what can I see myself doing for 10 years," not "if I'm still doing this when I'm 50, I'll shoot myself."  Oh, and for the love of Pete, don't go back to school unless/until (i) you have been working in an area long enough to know that it's what you want to do, (ii) you cannot continue to move up without a specific degree, (iii) the work you will be able to do with the degree is worth both the cost of the degree and the additional time you will need to continue working to pay for that degree, and (iv) you have your current debt paid off.

And btw, I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up.  But it's been a pretty decent ride all told.

J Boogie

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2018, 08:32:17 AM »
My impression is that you've been sold a bill of goods.  A job that is tangible, that does good in the world, that allows you to continue to grow, that is interesting, and that provides autonomy?  And that presumably allows you time off to travel and pursue your other interests?  Doesn't exist -- and if it did, it would pay peanuts, because there would be SO many people clamoring to do it. So you need some priorities:  since you can't have everything, rank your various desires, and then focus on career paths that meet the top couple.

You have a degree in economics, so you know how the laws of supply and demand work.  The way people make money is usually (1) by having a particular talent that is highly valued by people with money, and working their ass off to develop that talent to the maximum extent possible, or (2) by being able to tolerate/handle some difficult/annoying job that needs to be done.  For (1), think pro athlete; for (2), think of the guy who made millions by founding a trash collection company.  So:  what skill do you have that is better than your competition -- what advantage can you offer that makes you valuable to an employer?  And/or what can you do that others find either impossible or impossibly dull? 

The other aspect of this is that almost all career paths suck rocks when you are at the bottom of the totem pole.  But you have to suck it up and work your ass off in order to develop your skills and flesh out your weaknesses.  I am hearing a lot of impatience here -- try something, oops, it doesn't meet one of my criteria right out of the gate, move on to something else.  That's not the way things work.  No one is going to spot your fantastic potential as a new hire and give you all of the fun work and development opportunities you crave; you need to deal with the scut work while you prove yourself, so they will trust you with more fun and challenging stuff.  So focus on what the work might be in 5 years, not what it is right now.

Finally, do not believe you have to satisfy all of your life's goals through your job.  Some people do, and that's great.  But for many others, the job is something to pay the bills while they pursue their passions in other areas.  I get the feeling you fall into the latter category.  So focus your career search on efficiency:  what can give you the highest pay for the least time/effort?  So, for example, I am not a fan of option 3 -- you might need to suck it up and take whatever work you can for a few years to get out from under the debt, but the problem with that is you end up exhausting yourself running around at scut jobs just to pay the bills, and you don't have free time to enjoy yourself or develop the skills that might bring you a better, higher-paying job.  Long-term, you're much better off with a job that pays you more per hour, because that gives you more time to do more fulfilling things. 

To give you a little context:  I never knew what I wanted to do when I grew up.  As in, senior year of college most available jobs sounded boring, so went to law school.  Loved law school (intellectual challenge), but most types of practice sounded either boring or impossible to do and still have a life, so figured I'd go start with a big firm so I could rotate if I didn't like my first option (Rule #1, when you have various choices, start with the one that pays a buttload of money, because you can always drop down if you don't like it).  Ended up in a geeky complex regulatory area, and it turned out I liked it, but then figured I'd go work for a nonprofit in a few years to do good in the world.  But after a few years, I was surprised to discover that my big corporate clients were not actually out to rape and pillage -- they were normal people just like me, and they just wanted to understand what they needed to do to comply.  So I stayed.  Were there times that were boring and hard?  Oh, hell yes.  Honestly, being an associate kinda sucks, because you have to work your ass off, and you are always subject to someone else's schedule, and you don't always get the big view.  OTOH, being a partner kinda rocks.  I'm still subject to someone else's schedule, but now it's my client's schedule, and I am actually in charge of figuring out how to solve their problem, which to me is the fun part, because it's both challenging and satisfying -- and best of all, when I need some kind of boring research or document review, I have associates I can outsource that kind of thing to.  ;-)  And, yeah, there are days it's still boring, because it's still a job, not a vacation.  But overall, it still beats anything else I can think of -- certainly on a dollars-per-unit-of-effort basis. 

The reason I say all of this is because I got to the happy point only by sucking it up and throwing myself into the job even when I wasn't sure that was what I wanted.  I had certain advantages going in:  I'm smart, I write very well, and I have the ability to actually enjoy something that normal people find intolerable (regulatory interpretation).  That was enough to get me through the door into a well-paying career.  But it wasn't enough to get me where I am today; I had to get past my preconceived notions (companies are evil!), learn to deal with some boring shit that I would happily never do again, and work my ass off to prove my worth -- including both improving my innate skills and getting a whole lot better at the things I naturally suck at (attention to detail, communicating effectively with more linear thinkers).  Basically, you have to stay in one area long enough to develop both your skills and your boss' trust in those skills, because that is what opens the door to the more fun -- and more lucrative -- stuff. 

So, in short:  Option 2.  But don't just choose "sensible" in terms of "stable and pays enough."  Choose something that uses your brain, where the people above you do more interesting stuff that you can see yourself doing in a few years (without dying of boredom).  It doesn't need to be forever -- that's the brilliance of MMM, you only need to work for 10-15 years or so, depending on how much you can cut expenses and save.  So focus on "what can I see myself doing for 10 years," not "if I'm still doing this when I'm 50, I'll shoot myself."  Oh, and for the love of Pete, don't go back to school unless/until (i) you have been working in an area long enough to know that it's what you want to do, (ii) you cannot continue to move up without a specific degree, (iii) the work you will be able to do with the degree is worth both the cost of the degree and the additional time you will need to continue working to pay for that degree, and (iv) you have your current debt paid off.

And btw, I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up.  But it's been a pretty decent ride all told.

If you want, you could probably start a pretty successful blog just by copying and pasting all of Laura's posts :)

FireHiker

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2018, 09:44:54 AM »
Welcome! I would probably focus on option 2 with some of option 3 (side hustles) at least until the debt is gone and you start to build up an emergency fund. But, I am not someone who thinks everyone can find their perfect sweet spot of sustainably paid work = passion. For me, work is a means to an end. I have a career where I make very good money for the effort, and my husband and I are focusing on saving and really upping our frugal game (a work in progress because we, too, love travel over things!), so that we can get to the point that we don't need the money and can focus on what brings us joy/is a positive contribution to society.


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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2018, 10:08:39 AM »
I can just echo Laura (although, not an attorney). The job you are looking for doesn't exist. The perfect role with the perfect teammates doesn't exist at the perfect pay for the perfect cancer curing company. Instead, focus on a job that best matches what you are willing to trade off in terms of time vs money & overall career progression & interest. Build skills, do the absolute best at that job. In a couple of years, step back & figure out how to leverage that into your next move.

Jobs & careers often build upon each other. Certainly the job I'm at is heavily informed by the job I had five years ago, and the same thing for the job before that. But, to build your career & find "better" jobs, you need to network, meet people who will be sponsors or future managers. You need to invest the time, and give up on the dream that it's easy, particularly in the beginning when you're starting from scratch. It's not, it can be a slog. That's why you are getting paid.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 02:00:19 PM by MaybeBabyMustache »

debtaholic

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2018, 01:46:47 PM »
That's a good point. I've just never worked in a job with high barriers (exp. Medicine, Engineering, Law) so I have kind of put those types more on a pedestal than employees in professions i've been witness to (marketing, personal training, recreation)



You’ll find chest puffers even in fields with high barriers of entry. I’m in one such field and think that at least half of the people are kind of full of BS. Just focus doing a good job in whatever you’re doing, and people will see the quality of your work. And then you will get referrals and repeat customers. And then you’ll be so busy you have to keep raising prices to curtail demand.

debtaholic

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2018, 01:54:04 PM »

This is something I hadn't even considered! I would love to coach/train teams but the job prospects for a full-time, benefitted position with solid salary are super rare (from what I've heard)

Perhaps I could volunteer/stipend coach on weekends and have a more "desk" type job on 9-5 basis.


I definitely get your feeling of having several different things you want to optimize at work but having trouble getting them all. If I was to give my 3 categories, it'd probably be enjoyment, positive impact, money. Right now the tradeoff I'm making is being in a field that I like OK and has some impact, but pays really well (probably a common theme in FI circles). However, I also do volunteer tutoring with schoolkids, which pays nothing and can be pretty hard work, but makes me feel like I'm really making a difference. And in the future, hopefully I'll be able to downshift to lower-paid work I enjoy more while keeping up with the volunteering.

Anyways, that's a roundabout way of saying "if you can't get everything you want from one job, what compromises can you make?" I.E. taking something not ideal for the meantime, maybe doing other (paid/unpaid) work on the side for more fulfillment, and planning a career change in the future.

debtaholic

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2018, 02:05:28 PM »
This is fricken awesome! Makes a lot of sense. Am taking a boatload of notes here.

I have DEFINITELY been sold a bill of goods - Another poster recommended, "so good they can't ignore you," which talks about the, "follow your passion," advice fallacy. I very much need to hear/read this stuff.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond to this - the advice is great.


My impression is that you've been sold a bill of goods.  A job that is tangible, that does good in the world, that allows you to continue to grow, that is interesting, and that provides autonomy?  And that presumably allows you time off to travel and pursue your other interests?  Doesn't exist -- and if it did, it would pay peanuts, because there would be SO many people clamoring to do it. So you need some priorities:  since you can't have everything, rank your various desires, and then focus on career paths that meet the top couple.

You have a degree in economics, so you know how the laws of supply and demand work.  The way people make money is usually (1) by having a particular talent that is highly valued by people with money, and working their ass off to develop that talent to the maximum extent possible, or (2) by being able to tolerate/handle some difficult/annoying job that needs to be done.  For (1), think pro athlete; for (2), think of the guy who made millions by founding a trash collection company.  So:  what skill do you have that is better than your competition -- what advantage can you offer that makes you valuable to an employer?  And/or what can you do that others find either impossible or impossibly dull? 

The other aspect of this is that almost all career paths suck rocks when you are at the bottom of the totem pole.  But you have to suck it up and work your ass off in order to develop your skills and flesh out your weaknesses.  I am hearing a lot of impatience here -- try something, oops, it doesn't meet one of my criteria right out of the gate, move on to something else.  That's not the way things work.  No one is going to spot your fantastic potential as a new hire and give you all of the fun work and development opportunities you crave; you need to deal with the scut work while you prove yourself, so they will trust you with more fun and challenging stuff.  So focus on what the work might be in 5 years, not what it is right now.

Finally, do not believe you have to satisfy all of your life's goals through your job.  Some people do, and that's great.  But for many others, the job is something to pay the bills while they pursue their passions in other areas.  I get the feeling you fall into the latter category.  So focus your career search on efficiency:  what can give you the highest pay for the least time/effort?  So, for example, I am not a fan of option 3 -- you might need to suck it up and take whatever work you can for a few years to get out from under the debt, but the problem with that is you end up exhausting yourself running around at scut jobs just to pay the bills, and you don't have free time to enjoy yourself or develop the skills that might bring you a better, higher-paying job.  Long-term, you're much better off with a job that pays you more per hour, because that gives you more time to do more fulfilling things. 

To give you a little context:  I never knew what I wanted to do when I grew up.  As in, senior year of college most available jobs sounded boring, so went to law school.  Loved law school (intellectual challenge), but most types of practice sounded either boring or impossible to do and still have a life, so figured I'd go start with a big firm so I could rotate if I didn't like my first option (Rule #1, when you have various choices, start with the one that pays a buttload of money, because you can always drop down if you don't like it).  Ended up in a geeky complex regulatory area, and it turned out I liked it, but then figured I'd go work for a nonprofit in a few years to do good in the world.  But after a few years, I was surprised to discover that my big corporate clients were not actually out to rape and pillage -- they were normal people just like me, and they just wanted to understand what they needed to do to comply.  So I stayed.  Were there times that were boring and hard?  Oh, hell yes.  Honestly, being an associate kinda sucks, because you have to work your ass off, and you are always subject to someone else's schedule, and you don't always get the big view.  OTOH, being a partner kinda rocks.  I'm still subject to someone else's schedule, but now it's my client's schedule, and I am actually in charge of figuring out how to solve their problem, which to me is the fun part, because it's both challenging and satisfying -- and best of all, when I need some kind of boring research or document review, I have associates I can outsource that kind of thing to.  ;-)  And, yeah, there are days it's still boring, because it's still a job, not a vacation.  But overall, it still beats anything else I can think of -- certainly on a dollars-per-unit-of-effort basis. 

The reason I say all of this is because I got to the happy point only by sucking it up and throwing myself into the job even when I wasn't sure that was what I wanted.  I had certain advantages going in:  I'm smart, I write very well, and I have the ability to actually enjoy something that normal people find intolerable (regulatory interpretation).  That was enough to get me through the door into a well-paying career.  But it wasn't enough to get me where I am today; I had to get past my preconceived notions (companies are evil!), learn to deal with some boring shit that I would happily never do again, and work my ass off to prove my worth -- including both improving my innate skills and getting a whole lot better at the things I naturally suck at (attention to detail, communicating effectively with more linear thinkers).  Basically, you have to stay in one area long enough to develop both your skills and your boss' trust in those skills, because that is what opens the door to the more fun -- and more lucrative -- stuff. 

So, in short:  Option 2.  But don't just choose "sensible" in terms of "stable and pays enough."  Choose something that uses your brain, where the people above you do more interesting stuff that you can see yourself doing in a few years (without dying of boredom).  It doesn't need to be forever -- that's the brilliance of MMM, you only need to work for 10-15 years or so, depending on how much you can cut expenses and save.  So focus on "what can I see myself doing for 10 years," not "if I'm still doing this when I'm 50, I'll shoot myself."  Oh, and for the love of Pete, don't go back to school unless/until (i) you have been working in an area long enough to know that it's what you want to do, (ii) you cannot continue to move up without a specific degree, (iii) the work you will be able to do with the degree is worth both the cost of the degree and the additional time you will need to continue working to pay for that degree, and (iv) you have your current debt paid off.

And btw, I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up.  But it's been a pretty decent ride all told.

debtaholic

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2018, 02:07:49 PM »

I'm definitely seeing a very common theme of, "work as a means," which obviously makes sense and syncs up with the whole foundation of MMM.

Thanks for the feedback. Option #2 seems to be the go!


Welcome! I would probably focus on option 2 with some of option 3 (side hustles) at least until the debt is gone and you start to build up an emergency fund. But, I am not someone who thinks everyone can find their perfect sweet spot of sustainably paid work = passion. For me, work is a means to an end. I have a career where I make very good money for the effort, and my husband and I are focusing on saving and really upping our frugal game (a work in progress because we, too, love travel over things!), so that we can get to the point that we don't need the money and can focus on what brings us joy/is a positive contribution to society.

debtaholic

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2018, 02:16:18 PM »
Thanks for the feedback!

Wish I would have found this forum a decade ago. I have to remember to thank my buddy for directing me over here.

I do have a bit of experience to fall back on (all fairly short term) in the marketing and market research analyst arena.


I can just echo Laura (although, not an attorney). The job you are looking for doesn't exist. The perfect role with the perfect teammates doesn't exist at the perfect pay for the perfect cancer curing company. Instead, focus on a job that best matches what you are willing to trade off in terms of time vs money & overall career progression & interest. Build skills, do the absolute best at that job. In a couple of years, step back & figure out how to leverage that into your next move.

Jobs & careers often build upon each other. Certainly the job I'm at is heavily informed by the job I had five years ago, and the same thing for the job before that. But, to build your career & find "better" jobs, you need to network, meet people who will be sponsors or future managers. You need to invest the time, and give up on the dream that it's easy, particularly in the beginning when you're starting from scratch. It's not, it can be a slog. That's why you are getting paid.

debtaholic

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2018, 02:19:48 PM »
Hi all,

Just wanted to say a big thanks for all the feedback so far. Some really great advice and helps to work through this. This is definitely the place for rational and real advice. Thanks for taking the time to read and respond to my very "rant" based post!

I'm taking all of this seriously and currently working through all your feedback. Am 2 chapters deep into Cal's book that was recommended yesterday.

Cheers,

James

use2betrix

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2018, 04:46:30 PM »
Hi all,

Just wanted to say a big thanks for all the feedback so far. Some really great advice and helps to work through this. This is definitely the place for rational and real advice. Thanks for taking the time to read and respond to my very "rant" based post!

I'm taking all of this seriously and currently working through all your feedback. Am 2 chapters deep into Cal's book that was recommended yesterday.

Cheers,

James

I also read that book, great read. I wouldn’t take the message to be so much a “follow your passion book” as compared to a “be so good at what you’re doing it becomes your passion.”

If you really have a dead end career then that message may not be as applicable and the message could be applied to a new career, but I think it’s really ideal for making the absolute most out of the career you already have for people in “good” careers even though they think it might not be the “perfect” career.

FireHiker

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2018, 05:29:53 PM »

I'm definitely seeing a very common theme of, "work as a means," which obviously makes sense and syncs up with the whole foundation of MMM.

Thanks for the feedback. Option #2 seems to be the go!


Welcome! I would probably focus on option 2 with some of option 3 (side hustles) at least until the debt is gone and you start to build up an emergency fund. But, I am not someone who thinks everyone can find their perfect sweet spot of sustainably paid work = passion. For me, work is a means to an end. I have a career where I make very good money for the effort, and my husband and I are focusing on saving and really upping our frugal game (a work in progress because we, too, love travel over things!), so that we can get to the point that we don't need the money and can focus on what brings us joy/is a positive contribution to society.

Happy to help. :) Also, to tie in to your earlier comment about high barrier careers/"chest puffers", I'm an engineer and definitely my field is not exempt.  I find it isn't so much the actual engineering work that I'm looking to leave, it's all the other BS that comes along with any corporate gig. I wouldn't say I am "passionate" about engineering, but I do enjoy most of the actual engineering. I would probably still enjoy engineering work if I didn't need the money, but I wouldn't be spending 40 hours a week on it, or putting up with so much of the other BS. Good luck finding a suitable means to your end!

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2018, 01:05:35 PM »
It seems to me that your three conditions are fulfilled by any number of trades: plumber, electrician, HVAC engineer, pool design/installation/maintenance,  home builder, roofer, stage tech, etc. etc. etc.  Most have relatively low barriers to entry apart from mastering the work (which you want to do anyway), they allow for self-employment with the flexibility that brings.

debtaholic

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2018, 04:23:06 PM »

Yep agreed - it has really helped focus me. Very solid recommendation.



I also read that book, great read. I wouldn’t take the message to be so much a “follow your passion book” as compared to a “be so good at what you’re doing it becomes your passion.”

If you really have a dead end career then that message may not be as applicable and the message could be applied to a new career, but I think it’s really ideal for making the absolute most out of the career you already have for people in “good” careers even though they think it might not be the “perfect” career.

debtaholic

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Re: I'm a Debtaholic - Starting on a new path & need help!
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2018, 04:25:51 PM »
Agreed - I think they are great gigs. I think now though, after some great advice & recommendations on this post, I'm going to focus on how I can best offer value to an employer with the education & skills I have at hand.


It seems to me that your three conditions are fulfilled by any number of trades: plumber, electrician, HVAC engineer, pool design/installation/maintenance,  home builder, roofer, stage tech, etc. etc. etc.  Most have relatively low barriers to entry apart from mastering the work (which you want to do anyway), they allow for self-employment with the flexibility that brings.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!