Author Topic: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"  (Read 43702 times)

undercover

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2017, 10:32:54 AM »
It's always interesting to read stuff from the "other side" Because as a Millennial, my experience has been totally different. I'm a firm believer that there has never been a time in human history where we've had it easier than now. At least, I'm pretty sure there's never been a time when a receptionist and office clerk couple could even dream of living the lifestyle we do today - living with almost total independence and freedom, travelling to Europe and Asia every year along with a bunch of smaller trips, and also be on track to permanently retire at around 35. Right now we're 29 and 31, and if we wanted to own property, we could pay cash for a place on the spot. Or a car, or pretty much anything else we wanted.

I do agree that Millennials who make stupid financial decisions end up suffering as a result, and it's a lot easier to do dumb shit these days than in the past due to easy credit and stuff. But you can still just.... choose not to do the dumb shit, take advantage of all the great stuff available to you instead, and kick ass at life.

I'm of the same mind. We have it easier than ever now as an overall race. It's actually fairly stupid to look at this as a generational thing anyway.

There's more opportunities than ever to make money - they just might be different than the way people are used to (basically anything is possible with the internet, people are just lazy and want a "secure job"). And yes, a "basic" life that is at least five times as good as it was 100 years ago can be had on a modest salary.

Yes, you can get screwed more easily if you go down the "traditional" paths, but humans (not just generations) have always had to adapt.

scantee

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2017, 10:39:09 AM »
Quote
Times change and you have to adapt to survive and I think that is where so many people that are feeling left behind are struggling. They thought it would be one way and are finding out that the rules have changed.

I think Millenials are or could be very adaptable, but they also want and expect policy to keep up with changing times. Instead what we have is a U.S. government run by aging boomers who are fighting tooth and nail to make sure our approach to governance and public policy cater to way things used to be when they young, a way that doesn't exist anymore. The sharing economy is a great example of this: it could be great it we were to detach the provision of work benefits (e.g., health insurance, 401k, paid time off) from individual employers. The ACA was a huge step forward in this regard, and yet it was widely derided by boomers.

scantee

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2017, 10:47:32 AM »
It's always interesting to read stuff from the "other side" Because as a Millennial, my experience has been totally different. I'm a firm believer that there has never been a time in human history where we've had it easier than now. At least, I'm pretty sure there's never been a time when a receptionist and office clerk couple could even dream of living the lifestyle we do today - living with almost total independence and freedom, travelling to Europe and Asia every year along with a bunch of smaller trips, and also be on track to permanently retire at around 35. Right now we're 29 and 31, and if we wanted to own property, we could pay cash for a place on the spot. Or a car, or pretty much anything else we wanted.

I do agree that Millennials who make stupid financial decisions end up suffering as a result, and it's a lot easier to do dumb shit these days than in the past due to easy credit and stuff. But you can still just.... choose not to do the dumb shit, take advantage of all the great stuff available to you instead, and kick ass at life.

Aren't you from Canada? If I'm right about that, it means you are not faced with many of the challenges discussed in this article, which is very U.S.-centric. You have access to universal health care,  extensive parental leave, child benefit, and much lower post-secondary costs. These are the types of policies that U.S. Millenials support and would like to see implemented here. Absence of those types of policies is why many Millenials feel that things are getting worse.

sirspendstoomuch

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2017, 10:52:17 AM »
Quote
Times change and you have to adapt to survive and I think that is where so many people that are feeling left behind are struggling. They thought it would be one way and are finding out that the rules have changed.

I think Millenials are or could be very adaptable, but they also want and expect policy to keep up with changing times. Instead what we have is a U.S. government run by aging boomers who are fighting tooth and nail to make sure our approach to governance and public policy cater to way things used to be when they young, a way that doesn't exist anymore. The sharing economy is a great example of this: it could be great it we were to detach the provision of work benefits (e.g., health insurance, 401k, paid time off) from individual employers. The ACA was a huge step forward in this regard, and yet it was widely derided by boomers.

+1

honeybbq

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2017, 11:06:17 AM »
I'm genX and I feel very, very lucky to be the age that I am.

I got through advanced education with no SL debt.

While the crash of 2008 wiped out years and years of savings, I recovered OK.

Living in a HCOLA in the prime of my earning I can get along and afford a house with ease; many people here cannot with a starter home costing 650k ++ in the city proper. I'm not really sure how young families can make it work.

Even though I'm in a very technical and applied STEM field, the requirements for entry are more strict and the field is getting flooded. I was lucky to never hurt for a job or have too much competition.

I do think millenials have it harder than I did.

Zikoris

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2017, 11:06:52 AM »
It's always interesting to read stuff from the "other side" Because as a Millennial, my experience has been totally different. I'm a firm believer that there has never been a time in human history where we've had it easier than now. At least, I'm pretty sure there's never been a time when a receptionist and office clerk couple could even dream of living the lifestyle we do today - living with almost total independence and freedom, travelling to Europe and Asia every year along with a bunch of smaller trips, and also be on track to permanently retire at around 35. Right now we're 29 and 31, and if we wanted to own property, we could pay cash for a place on the spot. Or a car, or pretty much anything else we wanted.

I do agree that Millennials who make stupid financial decisions end up suffering as a result, and it's a lot easier to do dumb shit these days than in the past due to easy credit and stuff. But you can still just.... choose not to do the dumb shit, take advantage of all the great stuff available to you instead, and kick ass at life.

Aren't you from Canada? If I'm right about that, it means you are not faced with many of the challenges discussed in this article, which is very U.S.-centric. You have access to universal health care,  extensive parental leave, child benefit, and much lower post-secondary costs. These are the types of policies that U.S. Millenials support and would like to see implemented here. Absence of those types of policies is why many Millenials feel that things are getting worse.

The spiel doesn't change when you cross the border. Millennials complain about getting the shaft in Canada as much as in the US.

FINate

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2017, 11:36:43 AM »

The attention is on the wrong generation. It’s not that millennials have it so bad or that we should compare millennials to Gen X. It’s that No one recognizes how easy Boomers had it. They came of age in a time when there were many middle income jobs that didn’t require college, but if they did want college it was cheap. Heck, there was a whole decade spent “finding yourself” in the sixties but then most of their working life was a time of economic expansion and they mostly have pensions to secure retirement.

In my mind, the generation advantage is not about whether it’s possible to have a secure life if you are born at any time, but how much you are allowed to screw up before settling down and yet still find security. Boomers could screw up a lot and still find a way. Particularly older Boomers. The rising income inequality , cost of tuition, cost of housing, shift to 401k rather than pensions is real, and all make the cost of screwing up much higher. There are some advantages if you know how to access them, but your average person is in a harder place now.

Also, this whole discussion mostly applies only to white people. Generational differences for people of color have their own trajectory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

^^^THIS! The boomers came of age in the post war era. As they were hitting the job market much of the industrialized world was still recovering from the war. This was an exceptional period but, being eternally optimistic Americans didn't see it as such. Instead, this aberration became the foundation the mythology of an "American Dream" were things always go up and to the right, where subsequent generations should always be better off (whatever that means). History is full of counterexamples, yet we don't think this applies to us.

Millennials have many valid complaints, especially things like zoning laws and the load of crap they were sold with "follow your dreams" and spend whatever amount of money on higher ed, cause it doesn't matter if you do what you love. So there's work to be done to fix various problems, but this is true of every generation.

Fixating on how good previous generations had it is not constructive, may be counterproductive if it confuses cause and effect and results in bad policy or energy going into ineffective efforts.


FIRE Artist

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2017, 11:38:27 AM »
It's always interesting to read stuff from the "other side" Because as a Millennial, my experience has been totally different. I'm a firm believer that there has never been a time in human history where we've had it easier than now. At least, I'm pretty sure there's never been a time when a receptionist and office clerk couple could even dream of living the lifestyle we do today - living with almost total independence and freedom, travelling to Europe and Asia every year along with a bunch of smaller trips, and also be on track to permanently retire at around 35. Right now we're 29 and 31, and if we wanted to own property, we could pay cash for a place on the spot. Or a car, or pretty much anything else we wanted.

I do agree that Millennials who make stupid financial decisions end up suffering as a result, and it's a lot easier to do dumb shit these days than in the past due to easy credit and stuff. But you can still just.... choose not to do the dumb shit, take advantage of all the great stuff available to you instead, and kick ass at life.

Aren't you from Canada? If I'm right about that, it means you are not faced with many of the challenges discussed in this article, which is very U.S.-centric. You have access to universal health care,  extensive parental leave, child benefit, and much lower post-secondary costs. These are the types of policies that U.S. Millenials support and would like to see implemented here. Absence of those types of policies is why many Millenials feel that things are getting worse.

Here are the stats from Canada.  Universal Healthcare may be an advantage, but Millenials in this country still face very similar challenges. 

https://globalnews.ca/news/3854264/boomers-gen-x-millennials-cost-of-living-canada/

I agree with the person who pointed out that the disparity really isn't between Gen X and Millenials, rather it is between Boomers and everyone else.  The term "Underemployed" was coined for Gen X during the mid 90's, people graduating with university degrees and working in coffee shops, living with several room mates to make ends meet.  The earning potential difference between career track degrees (B.Eng) and academic track degrees (B.A) had just recently become obvious.  As a Gen Xer, moving back in with my parents was never an option, because we simply didn't have the type of relationships with our parents that the Millenials had with their Boomer parents, instead we opted for shitty basement apartments with roommates. 


exige

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2017, 11:43:23 AM »
I did not read everything or the article however I disagree we have it harder (me being a millennial).

Put myself through a local college for a Computer information systems degree took 5 years have no debt.
Worked full time since highschool never stopped.
bought a house after the crash in 2010 worked my ass to make it nice.
Got married
Lost 145 lbs through diet and exercise.
Graduated with my degree starting a new job with a 5k raise 3 months before graduation date
18 months later new job with 35% increase, full benefits covered and great 401k and pension.

All of the above was in a span of about 6 years total I had no handouts or any bullshit I was up every day at 4am and in bed at 10. Every weekend for almost 5 years was homework and learning what it would take to get a job after I got the degree I was told I needed. Linkedin, networking etc etc. I actually took the time to learn how to write and compose a good resume and learn about what would help me get a job not just bitch that my arts degree didn't get me 100k the day I graduated.

ixtap

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2017, 11:46:15 AM »
Millenials are screwed because HP wants them to use their time to write for them for free.

NeonPegasus

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2017, 11:49:15 AM »
While there are definitely some complainypants quotes in the article, I do think it captures some systemic shifts that have made it much harder for young people now. Crazy healthcare, education and housing costs, unnecessary credential inflation and jobs shifting from employee-based to contractor-based are all huge issues. I think it's easy to pooh-pooh the impact if you haven't had to deal with it.

For instance, in my last job, my company covered all of my healthcare costs. Then I quit to work in my family business with my husband and found out I was pregnant at the same time. Suddenly, I couldn't get insurance for love or money (this was 2013). Obamacare came along and at least we could get insurance. But the premiums have skyrocketed since 2014. When I got quotes before quitting in 2013, I budgeted $500/mo for my family. Our premiums next year will be $1400/mo and that is the cheapest policy I can find. I imagine my old company is still covering the cost of health insurance. If I still worked there, I don't think I'd truly internalize how concerning the skyrocketing costs are. Nor would I be so concerned about the Republicans trying to kill the ACA.

When I went to college (a private one), no one came out with the kind of debt that is typical today. I don't know that I could go to my same college today and come out without a boatload of debt. And in the 17 years since I graduated, I've seen credential inflation first hand. At the last company where I worked, they required warehouse employees to have 4 year degrees! For picking orders! Also, with Home Depot headquartered nearby, I've seen how they have slowly replaced typical employees with contractors and how that has impacted both the people who work as contractors and the employees they work alongside. It's awful.

As for the housing costs, I assume the responders here read the author's example comparing his father's home buying experience with his own situation:

"In one of the most infuriating conversations I had for this article, my father breezily informed me that he bought his first house at 29. It was 1973, he had just moved to Seattle and his job as a university professor paid him (adjusted for inflation) around $76,000 a year. The house cost $124,000 — again, in today’s dollars. I am six years older now than my dad was then. I earn less than he did and the median home price in Seattle is around $730,000. My father’s first house cost him 20 months of his salary. My first house will cost more than 10 years of mine."

Granted, Seattle home prices are crazy but comparing that to the situation in the Atlanta burbs, which is considered a much more reasonable market, it is still crazy. There's no way you could find a decent 3 bed house for $124k. In fact, when I was home hunting in '01, the houses built around '73 were definitely outside of our budget because they were 4 sided brick. We were searching for something under $200k and the typical 3 bed brick ranch from the early 70s was going for $250-280k.

boarder42

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2017, 11:52:27 AM »
i mean this is just hilarious.  We are the first generation with access to a bottomless pit of knowledge that litterally everything can be learned online.  We are all in this forum discussing things our parents couldnt dream about doing them selves.  vanguard invented the index fund in our lifetimes so now we can invest cheaply.  power is cheap. water is cheap.  food is cheap.  its the easiest time to be alive ever.  what you do with your time well bitching and moaning we have it rough thats your own problem.

Laura33

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2017, 11:56:07 AM »
These articles always drive me nuts, because it is an unfair analysis:  they are comparing the current insecurities of today's 25-year-olds with the current secure status of today's 50+-year-olds -- not with the equally insecure status that today's 50-year-olds felt when they were 25.  And frankly, they're comparing today's 25-year-olds to only some of yesterday's 25-year-olds -- specifically, the ones who largely guessed right and came out on the winning side of many prior economic upheavals.  Because the folks who came out on the losing side of those changes generally weren't in a position to provide the stable, MC-or-better upbringing that tends to create kids who expect life to be secure and who take it as a given that they should do better than their parents.  You know, the kind of kids who grow up to write these articles. 

In short, if you are 25 and writing an article like this today, you cannot possibly know how insecure it felt like to be 25 in 1940, or 1968, or 1984.  So let me give you some data points for comparision:

Early 1940s:  my granny and grandad grow up in poverty on the farm.  Upon graduation from HS, college is not an option; his only viable "career paths" are to do what their parents did and continue subsistence-level farming, or join the military and jump right into the hell of WWII.  He chose the latter.  A few years later, he was shot down and died, leaving my Granny with a toddler and pregnant with my dad.  Maybe he didn't feel insecure; after all, he was dead.  How do you think she felt at 22?  No husband, two tiny kids, no skills (and no decent-paying jobs post-war that would hire women anyway), with only poverty-level military benefits to support the three of them.

Late 1960s:  Having survived the Cuban Missile Crisis and the JFK assassination, my mom and dad graduate college into another war, MLK/RFK assassinations, massive protests, protesters being beaten and shot, and, oh yeah, riots and cities burning.  They then get jobs and watch the economy move into a decade of stagflation, with no growth but double-digit interest rates; the cherry on the top was gas rationing and price gouging -- coats-on-in-the-house level of expensive. 

1980s:  I hit HS at the same time as the Reagan Recession.  Every day, manufacturing jobs are disappearing; the way of life that most of my classmates grew up expecting -- get a HS degree, get a job in the factory, keep your head down and work hard, retire with a pension in 30 years -- suddenly seems far more risky than secure.  I guess the good news is that we're not at war, if you don't count Afghanistan and Nicaragua and our government trading coke for guns to support a war Congress refused to get involved in; not to mention the constant, never-ending pissing match with the USSR.  I hit the midwest for college just in time for the farm crisis (embargo on grain exported to USSR!); so much for real estate being a "safe" asset.  And did I mention it's a recession and no one's hiring?  So now what? 

I am not saying that I, or any other generation, had it worse than today's Millennials.  In fact, in the end, every single one of the prior generations did just fine.  My Granny's second husband caught the post-war boom; they lived in trailer parks their whole lives but managed to raise three boys and send them all to college.  The '70s were tough for my mom and dad, but then they hit the beginning of the giant economic boom that started in the '80s and had secure jobs from then on out.  And, perhaps most importantly, they were in at the invention of mutual funds, got in at the beginning of that boom, and so did better financially than they ever expected.  I went to law school, got lucky (even though I graduated into the huge legal recession of the early '90s, I avoided the cuts that let go 50 other young attorneys), saved money and kept my expenses reasonable and so was able to survive the first tech crash despite DH's 3 job losses and interstate moves in 5 years, and was in a position in 2008 where I didn't have to touch a damn thing and so made out just fine. 

What I am saying is that none of us knew at 20 or 22 or 25 that we were going to make it ok.  In fact, most of us thought we were completely screwed.  The whole world looked like it was blowing up, or about to; the rules of the game had changed dramatically, and no one knew what the "new" economy was going to be, or which path would lead to success and which to failure.  Sound familiar?

That's why I don't like the "who has it worse" articles.  Frankly, just about anything that could happen to me in my life still puts me way ahead of my Granny.  You just have to do what everyone has always had to do to succeed:  work hard, look for opportunity, be flexible, and make sacrifices.  Even then, there are no guarantees.  But maybe, if you're lucky, in 20 years your kids can write an article about how much easier you had it.   

Now get off my lawn.

BuzzFire

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2017, 12:40:20 PM »
The U.S. is great place to get rich, but it's not very good at ensuring that the mass of average, typical citizens are able to thrive with the opportunity for comfortable lives. I was reflecting on this recently while reading statistics of median wealth per adult by country. The U.S. isn't even in the top ten and most socialist European countries -- including ones that are not nearly as wealthy on average as the U.S., like Italy and Spain -- have higher median wealth per adult than the U.S. It is depressing that we are doing so poorly in this regard. Growing inequality will be the thorn in the side of the U.S., how it slides from being a great nation to a mediocre one.

My professional background is in public policy and I've learned over the years that many people are not able to grasp how historical and macroeconomic forces shape generational change, rather viewing everything through an interpersonal and situational lens. These are the people who are likely to describe this article as "complainypants" because the only way they have to understand the world and how it changes is at the individual level. That's unfortunate, because without the ability to acknowledge these larger forces, few will be compelled to change our current course.

That's all to say: overall I think this article is right on and you can't successfully argue with the data presented by calling people "complainypants."

Great post. Much better than I could have explained it. I would urge people to check out Requiem for the American Dream and Saving Capitalism to better grasp these historical and macroeconomic forces.

LibrarianFuzz

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2017, 12:44:42 PM »
Lots of angry voices in this thread.

I'm an Old Millennial (born in '82.)

I worked my way through college, attending only a community college and a state college. Took me 8 years. For most of that time, my rent and utilities consumed 90% of my income (minimum wage jobs - I had no special skills.) I lived 200% below the federal poverty line. I had no car, no computer, no internet, no cell phone, and no friends. By the time I graduated with a BA in December 2008, I was lucky to have escaped with only $8k in student loan debt, which went to pay my tuition and schoolbooks, which financial aid did not adequately cover.

As a new college graduate in January 2009 - smack in the middle of the recession -  I was damn lucky to get a full-time, with benefits. I made $12 an hour as an Office Technician.

Let that sink in. New grad. Working as an Office Technician. That was the best I could do. Think I was overqualified for that job? You bet? Was I happy to have it? Hell yeah.

With my new job, I upgraded from living with really crappy roommates to getting my own studio apartment. Rent and utilities now averaged 80% of my income, instead of 90%.
 
Then on to grad school in 2011. Turns out I now made too much to qualify for financial aid. Who would have thought? Took out like $30,000 in student loans to go to - guess where - a state college!

Not sure what I should have done differently here. You tell me.

Don't knock this generation unless you've lived through their experiences and tried to make do with the resources they've had.


FIRE Artist

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2017, 12:56:33 PM »
These articles always drive me nuts, because it is an unfair analysis:  they are comparing the current insecurities of today's 25-year-olds with the current secure status of today's 50+-year-olds -- not with the equally insecure status that today's 50-year-olds felt when they were 25.  And frankly, they're comparing today's 25-year-olds to only some of yesterday's 25-year-olds -- specifically, the ones who largely guessed right and came out on the winning side of many prior economic upheavals.  Because the folks who came out on the losing side of those changes generally weren't in a position to provide the stable, MC-or-better upbringing that tends to create kids who expect life to be secure and who take it as a given that they should do better than their parents.  You know, the kind of kids who grow up to write these articles. 

In short, if you are 25 and writing an article like this today, you cannot possibly know how insecure it felt like to be 25 in 1940, or 1968, or 1984.  So let me give you some data points for comparision:

Early 1940s:  my granny and grandad grow up in poverty on the farm.  Upon graduation from HS, college is not an option; his only viable "career paths" are to do what their parents did and continue subsistence-level farming, or join the military and jump right into the hell of WWII.  He chose the latter.  A few years later, he was shot down and died, leaving my Granny with a toddler and pregnant with my dad.  Maybe he didn't feel insecure; after all, he was dead.  How do you think she felt at 22?  No husband, two tiny kids, no skills (and no decent-paying jobs post-war that would hire women anyway), with only poverty-level military benefits to support the three of them.

Late 1960s:  Having survived the Cuban Missile Crisis and the JFK assassination, my mom and dad graduate college into another war, MLK/RFK assassinations, massive protests, protesters being beaten and shot, and, oh yeah, riots and cities burning.  They then get jobs and watch the economy move into a decade of stagflation, with no growth but double-digit interest rates; the cherry on the top was gas rationing and price gouging -- coats-on-in-the-house level of expensive. 

1980s:  I hit HS at the same time as the Reagan Recession.  Every day, manufacturing jobs are disappearing; the way of life that most of my classmates grew up expecting -- get a HS degree, get a job in the factory, keep your head down and work hard, retire with a pension in 30 years -- suddenly seems far more risky than secure.  I guess the good news is that we're not at war, if you don't count Afghanistan and Nicaragua and our government trading coke for guns to support a war Congress refused to get involved in; not to mention the constant, never-ending pissing match with the USSR.  I hit the midwest for college just in time for the farm crisis (embargo on grain exported to USSR!); so much for real estate being a "safe" asset.  And did I mention it's a recession and no one's hiring?  So now what? 

I am not saying that I, or any other generation, had it worse than today's Millennials.  In fact, in the end, every single one of the prior generations did just fine.  My Granny's second husband caught the post-war boom; they lived in trailer parks their whole lives but managed to raise three boys and send them all to college.  The '70s were tough for my mom and dad, but then they hit the beginning of the giant economic boom that started in the '80s and had secure jobs from then on out.  And, perhaps most importantly, they were in at the invention of mutual funds, got in at the beginning of that boom, and so did better financially than they ever expected.  I went to law school, got lucky (even though I graduated into the huge legal recession of the early '90s, I avoided the cuts that let go 50 other young attorneys), saved money and kept my expenses reasonable and so was able to survive the first tech crash despite DH's 3 job losses and interstate moves in 5 years, and was in a position in 2008 where I didn't have to touch a damn thing and so made out just fine. 

What I am saying is that none of us knew at 20 or 22 or 25 that we were going to make it ok.  In fact, most of us thought we were completely screwed.  The whole world looked like it was blowing up, or about to; the rules of the game had changed dramatically, and no one knew what the "new" economy was going to be, or which path would lead to success and which to failure.  Sound familiar?

That's why I don't like the "who has it worse" articles.  Frankly, just about anything that could happen to me in my life still puts me way ahead of my Granny.  You just have to do what everyone has always had to do to succeed:  work hard, look for opportunity, be flexible, and make sacrifices.  Even then, there are no guarantees.  But maybe, if you're lucky, in 20 years your kids can write an article about how much easier you had it.   

Now get off my lawn.

Best post of this thread.

One additional thing that is not mentioned ever is the impending massive transfer of intergenerational wealth that is going to happen when the Boomers pass away.  Perhaps some Gen Xers and most Millenials will feel differently about their situation then. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-inherit-record-wealth-manage-money-technology-2017-8
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 01:06:36 PM by FIRE Artist »

scantee

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2017, 01:10:21 PM »
Quote
These articles always drive me nuts, because it is an unfair analysis:  they are comparing the current insecurities of today's 25-year-olds with the current secure status of today's 50+-year-olds -- not with the equally insecure status that today's 50-year-olds felt when they were 25.

Huh? This criticism does not hold up at all. There are loads of stats in this article that compare the situation of young people today to boomers when they were young people. The author absolutely does do several of the types of comparisons you claim are absent entirely from this article.

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2017, 01:15:47 PM »
Quote
These articles always drive me nuts, because it is an unfair analysis:  they are comparing the current insecurities of today's 25-year-olds with the current secure status of today's 50+-year-olds -- not with the equally insecure status that today's 50-year-olds felt when they were 25.

Huh? This criticism does not hold up at all. There are loads of stats in this article that compare the situation of young people today to boomers when they were young people. The author absolutely does do several of the types of comparisons you claim are absent entirely from this article.

its completely told from one side of the story.  some of the costs in life today are much cheaper and more accessible than they were in that time.  this conversation we're having for instance.  you can train yourself to do anything online.  and can get college degrees for practically free if you take the time to figure out how.  (and no you dont have to be ultra smart)  you can take any grouping of statistics to make any point in time look worse than someone else had it or has it if you wanted to write an article geared to that.  boomers investment options sucked.  communication and entertainment were expensive.  learning required going somewhere to get a book. etc...

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2017, 01:25:30 PM »
Is some ways, it is harder to be Generation X right now. My generation caught the brunt of the Great Recession and lost a lot of income in what should have been the prime of our careers. The internet wasn't as well developed when we were younger so it was a lot harder to find good information about money and investing, so we made a lot more financial mistakes than Millennials and missed out on years of compound interest. In addition, our education became obsolete with 21st century technology so we ended up either being replaced or having to spend tens of thousands of dollars to retrain.

I only avoided some of these issues by living in poverty without assets until right after the financial crisis, so in a sense I got lucky and started out riding the recovery wave. A lot of other Generation Xers had more difficulty with all of that.

And many were hammered early in their careers by the (forgotten?) 2001 economic shock/collapse of the then long-running bull market.

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2017, 01:27:31 PM »
Lots of angry voices in this thread.

I'm an Old Millennial (born in '82.)

I worked my way through college, attending only a community college and a state college. Took me 8 years. For most of that time, my rent and utilities consumed 90% of my income (minimum wage jobs - I had no special skills.) I lived 200% below the federal poverty line. I had no car, no computer, no internet, no cell phone, and no friends. By the time I graduated with a BA in December 2008, I was lucky to have escaped with only $8k in student loan debt, which went to pay my tuition and schoolbooks, which financial aid did not adequately cover.

As a new college graduate in January 2009 - smack in the middle of the recession -  I was damn lucky to get a full-time, with benefits. I made $12 an hour as an Office Technician.

Let that sink in. New grad. Working as an Office Technician. That was the best I could do. Think I was overqualified for that job? You bet? Was I happy to have it? Hell yeah.

With my new job, I upgraded from living with really crappy roommates to getting my own studio apartment. Rent and utilities now averaged 80% of my income, instead of 90%.
 
Then on to grad school in 2011. Turns out I now made too much to qualify for financial aid. Who would have thought? Took out like $30,000 in student loans to go to - guess where - a state college!

Not sure what I should have done differently here. You tell me.

Don't knock this generation unless you've lived through their experiences and tried to make do with the resources they've had.

This is really interesting, because you and me took a similar route at first  - I'm just four years younger than you and also started off with around that amount in debt, and a job as an office clerk. Then our paths veered, so I can tell you what one other route you could have gone was.

Instead of taking on debt or going back to school, I improved my skills a bit and gradually got better office clerk and receptionist jobs. I also kept the same sort of lifestyle as when I earned less, learned a bunch of DIY skills, and figured out how to get my saving rate way up. Current projections are for retirement in about four or five years, around age 35.

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2017, 01:28:18 PM »
The U.S. is great place to get rich, but it's not very good at ensuring that the mass of average, typical citizens are able to thrive with the opportunity for comfortable lives. I was reflecting on this recently while reading statistics of median wealth per adult by country. The U.S. isn't even in the top ten and most socialist European countries -- including ones that are not nearly as wealthy on average as the U.S., like Italy and Spain -- have higher median wealth per adult than the U.S. It is depressing that we are doing so poorly in this regard. Growing inequality will be the thorn in the side of the U.S., how it slides from being a great nation to a mediocre one.

My professional background is in public policy and I've learned over the years that many people are not able to grasp how historical and macroeconomic forces shape generational change, rather viewing everything through an interpersonal and situational lens. These are the people who are likely to describe this article as "complainypants" because the only way they have to understand the world and how it changes is at the individual level. That's unfortunate, because without the ability to acknowledge these larger forces, few will be compelled to change our current course.

That's all to say: overall I think this article is right on and you can't successfully argue with the data presented by calling people "complainypants."

Great post. Much better than I could have explained it. I would urge people to check out Requiem for the American Dream and Saving Capitalism to better grasp these historical and macroeconomic forces.

Also +1

You can’t focus on youself and your bubble and say “we bootstrapped our way to the middle class, therefore EVERYONE can do it.” There are millions of Americans playing by the rules and they are getting left behind. Hedges, Stiglitz, Reich, Sanders, Klein, Yves Smith - they explain what is going on quite clearly. We have stagnant incomes while housing, healthcare, education and childcare have outpaced inflation. We have credential inflation which is causing everyone to purchase more education and spend less time in the labor force. The jobs the economy creates each month skew to low wage employment. Employers are shifting towards contractors and temps. Unions have been destroyed. Outsourcing in certain industries is rampant. People are struggling in this economy and it isn’t because they are lazy or because they consume too many luxuries. There aren’t enough good jobs for everyone who needs one.

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2017, 01:38:01 PM »
The U.S. is great place to get rich, but it's not very good at ensuring that the mass of average, typical citizens are able to thrive with the opportunity for comfortable lives. I was reflecting on this recently while reading statistics of median wealth per adult by country. The U.S. isn't even in the top ten and most socialist European countries -- including ones that are not nearly as wealthy on average as the U.S., like Italy and Spain -- have higher median wealth per adult than the U.S. It is depressing that we are doing so poorly in this regard. Growing inequality will be the thorn in the side of the U.S., how it slides from being a great nation to a mediocre one.

My professional background is in public policy and I've learned over the years that many people are not able to grasp how historical and macroeconomic forces shape generational change, rather viewing everything through an interpersonal and situational lens. These are the people who are likely to describe this article as "complainypants" because the only way they have to understand the world and how it changes is at the individual level. That's unfortunate, because without the ability to acknowledge these larger forces, few will be compelled to change our current course.

That's all to say: overall I think this article is right on and you can't successfully argue with the data presented by calling people "complainypants."

Great post. Much better than I could have explained it. I would urge people to check out Requiem for the American Dream and Saving Capitalism to better grasp these historical and macroeconomic forces.

Also +1

You can’t focus on youself and your bubble and say “we bootstrapped our way to the middle class, therefore EVERYONE can do it.” There are millions of Americans playing by the rules and they are getting left behind. Hedges, Stiglitz, Reich, Sanders, Klein, Yves Smith - they explain what is going on quite clearly. We have stagnant incomes while housing, healthcare, education and childcare have outpaced inflation. We have credential inflation which is causing everyone to purchase more education and spend less time in the labor force. The jobs the economy creates each month skew to low wage employment. Employers are shifting towards contractors and temps. Unions have been destroyed. Outsourcing in certain industries is rampant. People are struggling in this economy and it isn’t because they are lazy or because they consume too many luxuries. There aren’t enough good jobs for everyone who needs one.

so you live in NY - i wonder what the relationship is between millenials who feel they cant afford things and the location they choose to live or were raised in and dont want to leave.  the HCOL cities are for people who make lots of money if you dont you probably should move away b/c a lot of life can be had on a low salary in a LCOL city. 

but on the housing front tons of new spaces should be opening up when parking garages are no longer necessary. b/c of AI. started by the Gen Xers and Boomers with the first computer.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 01:44:00 PM by boarder42 »

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2017, 01:53:08 PM »

One additional thing that is not mentioned ever is the impending massive transfer of intergenerational wealth that is going to happen when the Boomers pass away.  Perhaps some Gen Xers and most Millenials will feel differently about their situation then. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-inherit-record-wealth-manage-money-technology-2017-8
[/quote]

I think it stands to reason that the inter generational wealth transfer will be underwhelming for most people.  True, if your parents were rich chances are you already are or will be.  Certainly with the fabled “helicopter parents” being rich there’s not much to bitch about.  But most parents aren’t rich. The ones that are very well off will spend their savings on medical care.  Some, like my dad, will borrow thousands from you and die before repaying.  A lot will pass away and any “wealth” left will be bric-a-brac nobody wants or even debt.

big_slacker

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2017, 03:20:58 PM »
That 'article' I'm sure was intended to be engaging, but almost gave me a stroke. I bailed after the 85th flashing graphic.

I think it's a mistake to discount the social and economic hurdles the current generation is facing by painting them with too broad a brush. I also have to agree that EVERY young person exiting high school should think really hard about to what degree traditional middle class paths are broken and act appropriately. It's not about lazy, it's about strategy. If you know many traditional middle class paths are broken, don't go down that f'in road!

In the article Scott got a degree in banking and then got out of school and cold applied as a bank teller? WTF Scott! for all the generation's supposed internet savvy Scotty didn't google and figure out the low end of banking was highly crowded and didn't pay well? Did he say google top 10 schools for investment banking, figured out what was needed to get in, read all the free guides on how to get a summer internship at one of the big players, how to network, how to land the first job, what to do if you don't get one of the coveted spots? Worst case he's probably have ended up doing finance at a fortune 500 company, best case being fabulously wealthy. This is best summed up as knowing what game you're playing and playing it to the best of your ability.

Or maybe the research led to the idea that the risk wasn't worth it and he'd just get a jump on that bus driver job, but without the student debt, further towards seniority, doing lots of OT (because there always is on those jobs), not getting a car, getting his own place with roomies and so on.

Or another maybe, switch gears and pick a related field that has more demand. For instance if computer science/coding is ultra crowded check out network engineering which is hurting for skilled folks. If you have no idea what you want to do just pick SOMETHING you won't hate that pays well and doesn't have enough people doing it. Nursing, plumbing, whatever.

This isn't meant to tell anyone how to live their life or be a guide for everyone. But I've seen more than one millennial not have the issues commonly griped about because they had a good head on their shoulders and a good strategy.

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2017, 03:49:09 PM »
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but Millennials in general have a lot of self-destructive habits that sabotage their own success. And most of it is based on luxuries that I wouldn't even have dreamed of as a kid growing up in rural poverty: Starbucks lattes everyday, dinner out four times a week, drinks at the bar twice a week, ordinary people buying luxury cars with heated steering wheels, subscription premium TV, everyone taking taxis absolutely everywhere all throughout the country (Uber, Lyft, etc.), gourmet dog biscuits, artisan grilled cheese orders over computers, and on and on. It's just incredible how wasteful Millennials can be.

But there's your hedonic adaptation. I've adjusted to my middle class income living here in the Flatlands, but I'll be damned if I ever waste my money on frivolous bullshit. My family has lived in America for over 15,000 years and they did just fine without 600 channels of television and subscriptions to monthly "shit in a box" sent by strangers over computers.

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2017, 03:59:54 PM »
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but Millennials in general have a lot of self-destructive habits that sabotage their own success. And most of it is based on luxuries that I wouldn't even have dreamed of as a kid growing up in rural poverty: Starbucks lattes everyday, dinner out four times a week, drinks at the bar twice a week, ordinary people buying luxury cars with heated steering wheels, subscription premium TV, everyone taking taxis absolutely everywhere all throughout the country (Uber, Lyft, etc.), gourmet dog biscuits, artisan grilled cheese orders over computers, and on and on. It's just incredible how wasteful Millennials can be.

But there's your hedonic adaptation. I've adjusted to my middle class income living here in the Flatlands, but I'll be damned if I ever waste my money on frivolous bullshit. My family has lived in America for over 15,000 years and they did just fine without 600 channels of television and subscriptions to monthly "shit in a box" sent by strangers over computers.

THIS!!!! exactly what my post was basically saying it comes down to your own life choices.... I KNEW we did not have the money to start a family Kids etc so we did not... I sold car parts for 10 fucking years while going to school and saving and spending basically nothing to buy a house and get a degree with zero debt. I made the CHOICE to not eat out daily or buy new phones and cars and 80 inch fucking tv's..... Seriously I had more saved and invested selling car parts then peers I have now making 100k+ not my fault they are fucking dumb

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #76 on: December 15, 2017, 05:13:02 PM »
Quote
These articles always drive me nuts, because it is an unfair analysis:  they are comparing the current insecurities of today's 25-year-olds with the current secure status of today's 50+-year-olds -- not with the equally insecure status that today's 50-year-olds felt when they were 25.

Huh? This criticism does not hold up at all. There are loads of stats in this article that compare the situation of young people today to boomers when they were young people. The author absolutely does do several of the types of comparisons you claim are absent entirely from this article.

The problem is that we cannot claim that Millennials actually have it worse than prior generations, because the story is not done; they are just beginning the marathon, while, their parents are at the 15-mile mark, and and their grandparents are at the finish.  So it's easy to look and say, wow, Dad really got off to a faster start, damn him!  But you can't tell who is going to win a marathon in the first mile -- and you certainly can't do it by looking at Dad and ignoring all of the other folks who started with him but then crapped out at mile 3 or 12 (or who happened to be born the wrong color or gender and weren't even allowed to start).  They are judging their parents' success with 20/20 hindsight, after it has become clear that their parents were the winners of the prior generation's economic upheavals; meanwhile, they are predicting their own failure and struggles by extrapolating the negative aspects of today's economic upheavals into the future.  But cherry-picking good or bad data and positive or negative trends is no more predictive than staring into a crystal ball.

I'll give you a point in time:  My parents' mid-30s.  They had pretty solid, safe childhoods, though it didn't always feel that way (see Cuban Missile Crisis above).  But then they left that privileged background and went out into school and the world and ran smack into multiple assassinations, riots, a war that lasted over a decade and killed hundreds of thousands of their friends and classmates, and a Presidential resignation.  Not to mention a decade of stagflation, oil wars, lines at the gas station, worries about being able to afford to heat their house, etc.  And then this article came out:http://ritholtz.com/1979/08/the-death-of-equities/.  Oh, and the factories were already starting to shut down, so the writing was on the wall. 

So.  How do you think they felt about their opportunities compared to their parents' generation?  After all, their parents got all those jobs in the post-WWII boom, and here they were treading water for a decade with an economy that was going downhill -- and only speeding up.  How would they ever do half as well as their parents did?

Of course, what absolutely no one knew at the time was that that article pretty much marked the low point in the economy and the markets; after we got through the Reagan Recession, the economy started picking up steam, and the stock market went on a giant tear for almost two decades.  So really, the Boomers got to start the race a leg up on most people thanks to their childhood; but then they got dragged down by almost 15 years of war and a crappy economy until they were really behind their parents' pace;* and then, bam, 20 years of totally unexpected prosperity and they win!  So how they compare to other generations depends entirely on which point in time you pick.   

Tl;dr: every single generation could have written exactly the same article, with just a different list of reasons why they had it worse than their parents.  And each of those articles would have been just as accurate given the time in which they were written and the limited perspective of their authors.  All they could see were all the scary changes that threatened what they knew; they couldn't see or predict the great opportunities that would later come their way.

*And note again that all those kids who died in Vietnam are not here to revel in their generation's relative success -- not to mention the many who were injured physically and mentally and came back to no jobs and addiction. Wonder what happens if you include them in the generational averages.  Or if you did the same for all the kids who died in WWII.  Or all of the women and minorities who were excluded from the MC+ job market.  Things are hard nowadays, but at least we have more than twice as many people who are allowed to compete.

jim555

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2017, 05:16:50 PM »
GenX here.  Millenials... Grrrr.  Don't get me started. 
Get off the lawn!

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2017, 08:05:08 PM »
Laura33

I love your post absolutely spot on.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2017, 08:49:55 PM »
Lots of angry voices in this thread.

I'm an Old Millennial (born in '82.)

I worked my way through college, attending only a community college and a state college. Took me 8 years. For most of that time, my rent and utilities consumed 90% of my income (minimum wage jobs - I had no special skills.) I lived 200% below the federal poverty line. I had no car, no computer, no internet, no cell phone, and no friends. By the time I graduated with a BA in December 2008, I was lucky to have escaped with only $8k in student loan debt, which went to pay my tuition and schoolbooks, which financial aid did not adequately cover.

As a new college graduate in January 2009 - smack in the middle of the recession -  I was damn lucky to get a full-time, with benefits. I made $12 an hour as an Office Technician.

Let that sink in. New grad. Working as an Office Technician. That was the best I could do. Think I was overqualified for that job? You bet? Was I happy to have it? Hell yeah.

With my new job, I upgraded from living with really crappy roommates to getting my own studio apartment. Rent and utilities now averaged 80% of my income, instead of 90%.
 
Then on to grad school in 2011. Turns out I now made too much to qualify for financial aid. Who would have thought? Took out like $30,000 in student loans to go to - guess where - a state college!

Not sure what I should have done differently here. You tell me.

Don't knock this generation unless you've lived through their experiences and tried to make do with the resources they've had.
I hired 2 fresh grads - an electrical engineer and a physics major - as technicians making $16 an hour, and they were lucky to have those jobs.  (Eventually they got promoted and got raises...now one of them works for the big G and makes more than me...)

mm1970

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2017, 08:53:43 PM »
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but Millennials in general have a lot of self-destructive habits that sabotage their own success. And most of it is based on luxuries that I wouldn't even have dreamed of as a kid growing up in rural poverty: Starbucks lattes everyday, dinner out four times a week, drinks at the bar twice a week, ordinary people buying luxury cars with heated steering wheels, subscription premium TV, everyone taking taxis absolutely everywhere all throughout the country (Uber, Lyft, etc.), gourmet dog biscuits, artisan grilled cheese orders over computers, and on and on. It's just incredible how wasteful Millennials can be.

But there's your hedonic adaptation. I've adjusted to my middle class income living here in the Flatlands, but I'll be damned if I ever waste my money on frivolous bullshit. My family has lived in America for over 15,000 years and they did just fine without 600 channels of television and subscriptions to monthly "shit in a box" sent by strangers over computers.
Eh, the millennials that I know aren't any different in this respect than we were in Gen X.

Some like their lattes and lunches out (esp the fresh grads), some bring lunches and drink free work coffee.  Some drive nice cars, some have beaters.

I remember when I bought my house and was packing up the garage at the rental.  I found a CC bill from when I was in my mid-20s, single and living in the big city.  My CC bill was $1000 a MONTH, and the vast majority of it was eating out and drinking beer.

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2017, 09:31:07 PM »
The tone of the article was annoying at times, but it's undeniable that the costs of housing, higher education, and healthcare* have drastically increased in real terms.  Young adults have born the brunt of this—I don't see any problem with pointing that out.  The most risible portion of the article though was the call to arms for progressive politics at the end.  There were little sprinklings of political bias throughout the article, but it was still primarily journalism before the political emoting began at the end.

Also, LOL at all the people posting "I did everything by myself and I'm rich, if you're not, you're just a lazy wimp"!  Because that's totally responsive to the point that housing, higher education, and healthcare costs have increased exponentially while wages have stagnated. 

*I hate this weasel word, but I'll use it here for brevity.

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2017, 11:34:34 PM »

It's basically on expose on entitlement mentality. I'll pick a couple examples.

Bus driver only making $22 dollars an hour. Woe is me!  Well lets look at that. The median individual full time* income in the US is $39,000. 22*2080 = $45760. Oh no! You only make more than half the country! The economy is clearly wrecked.

Gen X'er here.  The bus driver in that example was trying to work in banking.  Banks weren't hiring back then.  A friend of mine was trying to refinance during that time period and had to call the bank every day to keep his loan moving because the loan officer kept getting laid off.  When banks started hiring again, they either wanted people with experience, of which there were plenty, or fresh, young meat.  Guys a few years out of school didn't qualify.  Your initial wages in your first few years are hugely determinative of your final wages, as well as your lifetime earnings.  Somebody has to be below average, but it was millennials to a large extent. 

And there is another fair point about college tuition.  When I was in school [kaff, wheeze] tuition was expensive, but it wasn't crazy expensive like it is today.  You might graduate with some debt, but it wasn't crushing like so many kids face today.  And back in the day, jobs like being a janitor was an okay job.  Okay pay, some benefits, etc.  Now, most janitors are contractors.  Okay pay, no benefits. It is a different world than when we grew up, it just is.  If you excel, the rewards are far greater.  Right out of college, kids can get amazing jobs with amazing salaries that would have been unheard of when I got out of college.  On the flip side, everybody else gets squat. 

That said, as a group the millennials don't help themselves.  Every sentence seems to start with "I feel"  or "I felt."  Try starting each sentence with "I got the job done" or "I accomplished..."   That would generate way more sympathy.  Yes, I'm generalizing, but dayam. The millennials need to buck up. 


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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2017, 11:42:17 PM »
I'm beginning to think Laura33 is the smartest person in the room.

jpdx

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #84 on: December 16, 2017, 12:02:59 AM »
Say us millennials were dealt a bad hand. Nonetheless, it's our job to play our cards right.

No one is entitled to live during a strong economy, or have a well-paying job in the field of their choosing, or own a house. We just have to adapt to our changing world and make the best of it. We are all ridiculously lucky to be alive on planet Earth.

scantee

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #85 on: December 16, 2017, 08:05:14 AM »
Quote
The problem is that we cannot claim that Millennials actually have it worse than prior generations, because the story is not done; they are just beginning the marathon, while, their parents are at the 15-mile mark, and and their grandparents are at the finish. 

I could not disagree with this more. Long-term outcomes aren't the only measure of whether a generation has lived good lives. People's lived experiences as they are progressing through life are just as important, more important I would argue. That is why it is important for us know if millenials are, as a whole, worse of than boomers were at they same age. It remains important even if millenials end up just as well off as boomers are in retirement.

An extreme example might better show the absurdity of outcomes-only thinking. Imagine a millenial who gets kicked out of the house at 18, starts doing drugs, isn't able to keep a job, and ends up homeless. This homelessness persists for most of his adult life as he lives on the streets or in and out of shelters. Then, at 65, he wins the $100MM in the lottery. By your thinking, it all worked of fine in the end! He was just as well-off as his boomer parents. The decades of extreme deprivation somehow don't matter because of the extreme wealth that was acquired late in life. I think most people would think that a limited and callous approach to human experience.

With millenials, there is growing evidence to suggest that they are worse off as young adults (ages 20-40) as compared to boomers at the same age. Might something happen in their 40-60 age range to drastically turn around their overall trajectory? Sure, that's possible. But even if that happens, it won't make up for earlier hardships they experienced.

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #86 on: December 16, 2017, 08:50:18 AM »
I'm just loving the Gen X representation here...

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #87 on: December 16, 2017, 12:25:32 PM »
I don’t know about you guys but it was drilled into my little child brain my entire life that education was the most predictable path to career success.

It’s a bit of a MIND FUCK to deprogram yourself from that lifetime of psychological training.

I'm sure we all got that message to some extent, and it still holds true today.  But it doesn't take much research to figure out what jobs actually pay, either, and obviously you have to apply that education to add value and get paid.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #88 on: December 16, 2017, 02:54:25 PM »
Lots of angry voices in this thread.

I'm an Old Millennial (born in '82.)

I worked my way through college, attending only a community college and a state college. Took me 8 years. For most of that time, my rent and utilities consumed 90% of my income (minimum wage jobs - I had no special skills.) I lived 200% below the federal poverty line. I had no car, no computer, no internet, no cell phone, and no friends. By the time I graduated with a BA in December 2008, I was lucky to have escaped with only $8k in student loan debt, which went to pay my tuition and schoolbooks, which financial aid did not adequately cover.

As a new college graduate in January 2009 - smack in the middle of the recession -  I was damn lucky to get a full-time, with benefits. I made $12 an hour as an Office Technician.

Let that sink in. New grad. Working as an Office Technician. That was the best I could do. Think I was overqualified for that job? You bet? Was I happy to have it? Hell yeah.

With my new job, I upgraded from living with really crappy roommates to getting my own studio apartment. Rent and utilities now averaged 80% of my income, instead of 90%.
 
Then on to grad school in 2011. Turns out I now made too much to qualify for financial aid. Who would have thought? Took out like $30,000 in student loans to go to - guess where - a state college!

Not sure what I should have done differently here. You tell me.

Don't knock this generation unless you've lived through their experiences and tried to make do with the resources they've had.
I hired 2 fresh grads - an electrical engineer and a physics major - as technicians making $16 an hour, and they were lucky to have those jobs.  (Eventually they got promoted and got raises...now one of them works for the big G and makes more than me...)

My soon-to-be brother-in-law just graduated from college with a degree in computer systems (or something. Whatever they call the degree you get that allows you to run servers/cloud/whatever.) He's really upset because the only job he could find pays only $15/hour because he still lives on Hillbilly Mountain. Wages are very low right now and the sane response is to cut your expenses to the bone and get a side hustle. Either that or move somewhere with higher wages like I did. Or do both.

Laura33

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #89 on: December 16, 2017, 04:52:49 PM »
Quote
The problem is that we cannot claim that Millennials actually have it worse than prior generations, because the story is not done; they are just beginning the marathon, while, their parents are at the 15-mile mark, and and their grandparents are at the finish. 

I could not disagree with this more. Long-term outcomes aren't the only measure of whether a generation has lived good lives. People's lived experiences as they are progressing through life are just as important, more important I would argue. That is why it is important for us know if millenials are, as a whole, worse of than boomers were at they same age. It remains important even if millenials end up just as well off as boomers are in retirement.

. . . .

With millenials, there is growing evidence to suggest that they are worse off as young adults (ages 20-40) as compared to boomers at the same age. Might something happen in their 40-60 age range to drastically turn around their overall trajectory? Sure, that's possible. But even if that happens, it won't make up for earlier hardships they experienced.

Again:  it depends on how you define "worse."  College costs?  Absolutely worse.  OTOH, at least women and minorities have a fair shot to be admitted.  Job market?  Eh, IDK -- it's tough now, especially for those who graduated in 2008, but then again, riots and stagflation didn't do wonders for my parents their first @15 years out of school.  And on the plus side, if you are female or minority, you are inarguably better off, because you actually have a fair shot at those jobs.  My stepmom went to law school in the '70s, graduated very high in her class, and then couldn't even get an interview with any law firm; I graduated 15 years later and was immediately hired by a big firm.  Sure, she paid less for that degree, but was at least allowed to compete fairly for a job that could pay off my loans. 

That's what I mean by cherry-picking the data.  You cannot fairly complain that one generation has it worse based on higher unemployment or student loans or whatever-the-metric without also factoring in the more-than-half-the-population that wasn't even allowed to compete two generations ago.  Not to mention the very real risk of getting drafted if you couldn't go to college.


. . . .

There’s just not as many secure options that reward really hard work and talent anymore, and it takes fuel middle class incomes to sustain a middle class lifestyle now, which is inherently risky.

It’s not that there isn’t great success to be had, it’s all just a hell of a lot riskier and scarier than it used to be and we millenials were raised by a generation that gave us TERRIBLE advice based on extremely outdated information. Now we realize that what we were raised to believe is a myth and that were fucked if we stay on the path that was laid out for us.

This is the generation that has had to question if education is a worthy investment.
I don’t know about you guys but it was drilled into my little child brain my entire life that education was the most predictable path to career success.

It’s a bit of a MIND FUCK to deprogram yourself from that lifetime of psychological training.

Millenials aren’t necessarily fucked, but they sure are under insane pressure to adapt rapidly to a changing cultural, professional, and financial landscape that is NOTHING like their dear parents painted it to be.

All I can say is that I could would have written exactly the same thing in 1984, just changing some of the nouns.  The world is always changing, life is never like the prior generation expected it to be, and it is always a mind fuck to deprogram yourself and figure out what you need to do to succeed. 

My parents were taught to go to work for The Man, so that's what my dad did, and what their generation taught their kids to expect.  But by the time I graduated, that sure as hell wasn't safe any more -- someone changed the rules on us.  I graduated into manufacturing dying and big companies discovering the joys of mass layoffs and stripping pensions for the benefit of their stock price.   Well, hell, that's not safe -- so let's go to college.  So we graduated with debt into a crappy economy and struggled to find employment that used our degrees.  Sound familiar?  If you want to know how secure and optimistic we felt back then, watch "Reality Bites."  But we ultimately got our footing thanks to the subsequent boom, and then taught our own kids to go to college like we did -- because, really, what other path was there?  I mean, it's not like manufacturing is ever coming back right?  We wanted our kids to be more secure than we were, so we tried to direct them into the path we thought would provide that. 

But someone changed the rules again, and now we have too many college degrees and not enough jobs that justify that investment.  Oh: and now manufacturing is back, and there's been a good decade of energy-and-manufacturing jobs that don't even require that college degree, and my generation ignored the trades and so plumbers and electricians are so undermanned that they can make a damn good living with a few years of on-the-job training.

Yes, we gave our kids bad advice.  Just like our parents gave us.  Because the world changed while we weren't paying attention.  It always has, and it always will.

Yankuba

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #90 on: December 16, 2017, 07:15:56 PM »
Manufacturing output has never been higher but manufacturing jobs aren’t back. It’s a robot recovery. And whenever NYC has an opening for a union carpentry or other blue collar apprentice job there is a line that wraps around the block with people sleeping in the street for the opportunity to apply. The wait to become a garbageman in NYC is something like six or seven years. The NYC fire department has close to zero turnover - nobody ever leaves voluntarily. My federal agency has 500 applicants per opening and the people who get the job are rock stars who should be at the top of the private sector. If our economy was healthy we wouldn’t have people sleeping in the streets to become carpenter assistants and we wouldn’t have Harvard Law grads chomping to become federal employees or people waiting six years to haul trash. Even my wife’s low paying non profit gets 300 applicants per opening and everyone has a graduate degree. There is no way my wife and I would have been given a chance by our employers if we were the class of 2011 instead of 2001. I believe the article we’re commenting on also mentioned a kid who had to get past a ten person hiring committee for an $11/hour gig. How ridiculous! A babysitter makes close to $11/hour! And forget about the drug testing and credit checks and criminal background checks which trip up many people who made mistakes in life. The credential inflation, extreme job requirements (five years of a programming language that is only three years old) and poor labor practices of the private sector make it extremely difficult for everyone but the super elite to thrive.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MANEMP

https://www.villagevoice.com/2014/10/24/want-to-become-an-nyc-sanitation-worker-if-youre-lucky-itll-only-take-seven-years/


GU

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #91 on: December 16, 2017, 07:38:46 PM »
Quote
The problem is that we cannot claim that Millennials actually have it worse than prior generations, because the story is not done; they are just beginning the marathon, while, their parents are at the 15-mile mark, and and their grandparents are at the finish. 

I could not disagree with this more. Long-term outcomes aren't the only measure of whether a generation has lived good lives. People's lived experiences as they are progressing through life are just as important, more important I would argue. That is why it is important for us know if millenials are, as a whole, worse of than boomers were at they same age. It remains important even if millenials end up just as well off as boomers are in retirement.

. . . .

With millenials, there is growing evidence to suggest that they are worse off as young adults (ages 20-40) as compared to boomers at the same age. Might something happen in their 40-60 age range to drastically turn around their overall trajectory? Sure, that's possible. But even if that happens, it won't make up for earlier hardships they experienced.

Again:  it depends on how you define "worse."  College costs?  Absolutely worse.  OTOH, at least women and minorities have a fair shot to be admitted.  Job market?  Eh, IDK -- it's tough now, especially for those who graduated in 2008, but then again, riots and stagflation didn't do wonders for my parents their first @15 years out of school.  And on the plus side, if you are female or minority, you are inarguably better off, because you actually have a fair shot at those jobs.  My stepmom went to law school in the '70s, graduated very high in her class, and then couldn't even get an interview with any law firm; I graduated 15 years later and was immediately hired by a big firm.  Sure, she paid less for that degree, but was at least allowed to compete fairly for a job that could pay off my loans. 

That's what I mean by cherry-picking the data.  You cannot fairly complain that one generation has it worse based on higher unemployment or student loans or whatever-the-metric without also factoring in the more-than-half-the-population that wasn't even allowed to compete two generations ago.  Not to mention the very real risk of getting drafted if you couldn't go to college.


. . . .

There’s just not as many secure options that reward really hard work and talent anymore, and it takes fuel middle class incomes to sustain a middle class lifestyle now, which is inherently risky.

It’s not that there isn’t great success to be had, it’s all just a hell of a lot riskier and scarier than it used to be and we millenials were raised by a generation that gave us TERRIBLE advice based on extremely outdated information. Now we realize that what we were raised to believe is a myth and that were fucked if we stay on the path that was laid out for us.

This is the generation that has had to question if education is a worthy investment.
I don’t know about you guys but it was drilled into my little child brain my entire life that education was the most predictable path to career success.

It’s a bit of a MIND FUCK to deprogram yourself from that lifetime of psychological training.

Millenials aren’t necessarily fucked, but they sure are under insane pressure to adapt rapidly to a changing cultural, professional, and financial landscape that is NOTHING like their dear parents painted it to be.

All I can say is that I could would have written exactly the same thing in 1984, just changing some of the nouns.  The world is always changing, life is never like the prior generation expected it to be, and it is always a mind fuck to deprogram yourself and figure out what you need to do to succeed. 

My parents were taught to go to work for The Man, so that's what my dad did, and what their generation taught their kids to expect.  But by the time I graduated, that sure as hell wasn't safe any more -- someone changed the rules on us.  I graduated into manufacturing dying and big companies discovering the joys of mass layoffs and stripping pensions for the benefit of their stock price.   Well, hell, that's not safe -- so let's go to college.  So we graduated with debt into a crappy economy and struggled to find employment that used our degrees.  Sound familiar?  If you want to know how secure and optimistic we felt back then, watch "Reality Bites."  But we ultimately got our footing thanks to the subsequent boom, and then taught our own kids to go to college like we did -- because, really, what other path was there?  I mean, it's not like manufacturing is ever coming back right?  We wanted our kids to be more secure than we were, so we tried to direct them into the path we thought would provide that. 

But someone changed the rules again, and now we have too many college degrees and not enough jobs that justify that investment.  Oh: and now manufacturing is back, and there's been a good decade of energy-and-manufacturing jobs that don't even require that college degree, and my generation ignored the trades and so plumbers and electricians are so undermanned that they can make a damn good living with a few years of on-the-job training.

Yes, we gave our kids bad advice.  Just like our parents gave us.  Because the world changed while we weren't paying attention.  It always has, and it always will.

Personally, I'd rather have cheap education, housing, and healthcare in exchange for high mortgage rates (which also bring high risk-free savings account rates and high bond rates, mind you) and high gas prices. 

But I take your point that, just because it looks like the Boomers had it easy in hindsight, doesn't necessarily mean that it felt like it was easy to be a young adult in the 1970s and 1980s.  They didn't know the housing market would make them rich, and they didn't know that 21st Century monetary policy (extremely low inflation and interest rates) would keep them rich while simultaneously holding back young, indebted people lacking assets. 

The most galling thing about the Boomers *now* are:  (a) the refusal to recognize that housing, education, and healthcare costs have blown up while wages have stagnated, (b) the refusal to understand that monetary policy has been aligned against Millennials (and in favor of Boomers) for M's whole adult lives, and (c) that the WWII generation promoted the Boomers to leadership, and then retired and handed over the keys at reasonable ages, while the Boomers have pulled up the ladders on the Millennials, have never heard of a succession plan, etc.

ElleFiji

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #92 on: December 16, 2017, 08:33:54 PM »
Say us millennials were dealt a bad hand. Nonetheless, it's our job to play our cards right.

No one is entitled to live during a strong economy, or have a well-paying job in the field of their choosing, or own a house. We just have to adapt to our changing world and make the best of it. We are all ridiculously lucky to be alive on planet Earth.
Yes! I hated the format, but I liked the content. To me, it read more as an explanation of what went on behind the scenes leading to the recession that ate my starter job, and a world where the economy we were told about doesn't exist. As well as a few possible positive directions that things can move in (higher minimum wages, changing zoning laws, different ways to make benefits available), and that if you believe in them, you have to vote.

But on an individual level? Of course I realized years ago that the rules had changed and I shifted and adapted. And it sounds like this author did too. And by talking Abe the long reach of these shifts, I think he's encouraging people to adapt. GenX adapted their way, were adapting our way.

scantee

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2017, 09:10:38 AM »
I think both of these things are true, that 1) 2017 is the best time to be alive, due to societal and cultural changes, and 2) millenials are worse off their parents, the boomers (and older gen-xers). Laura33 is right that over that past few decades there have been huge improvements in the ways we treat women, our employment practices, and our access to health and leisure activities. All great stuff. However, those improvements are not evenly distributed across the population. Every year those improvements are more heavily distributed to a smaller slice of the population and inequality further increases. So while the Good Life in 2017 is much, much better than the Good Life was in 1970, fewer people feel like they have access to 2017's Good Life as compared to 1970's Good Life.

Someone upthread made a very important comment that the boomer generation is a historical anomaly. The conditions that brought it about -- WW2 and the physical destruction of our greatest competitor nations in Europe and Asia -- are not replicable across every generation, nor should we expect them to be (or want them to be, since millions of people had to die to bring those conditions about). The problem is that we don't treat the boomer generation as the anomaly it is, we treat it as the status quo. We pretend that a version of the boomer life is still accessible to young people if they follow the same rules that boomers did. But that is just not true. Extremely high student loans costs, costly healthcare, lack of pensions, expensive housing, and crazy credentialism (as Yankuba mentions) are changes that demonstrate that we are not living in the boomer world anymore. I think the frustration of millenials is that we, collectively, don't want to acknowledge or adapt to our changed world with policies that reflect where we are in 2017. From what I've observed, millenials are more than willing to adapt to new conditions but they feel hamstrung by a political environment that is clinging to the past.


partgypsy

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #94 on: December 18, 2017, 09:32:25 AM »
Anyone since the Baby boomers have been "screwed". I totally feel my parents had it better off than I did growing up (there were simply a lot more opportunities to have a middle class lifestyle, or even get well off and keep that wealth than current generations). That said there is personal agency. I will vote for politicians who represent my interests but otherwise do what I can with the options I have.

jim555

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #95 on: December 18, 2017, 09:55:10 AM »
With the tax bill the Boomers screwed the Millenials again.  1.5T they get right now and the bill gets passed to the Millenials.

coppertop

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #96 on: December 18, 2017, 01:01:10 PM »
With the tax bill the Boomers screwed the Millenials again.  1.5T they get right now and the bill gets passed to the Millenials.

I am a boomer and neither wrote the tax bill, nor am in favor of it.   Anyway, most of those senators and representatives are way older than I am.  Remember that the boomer generation spans many years.  Things that were true of the oldest boomers are not necessarily true of the youngest.  When I was buying a house, mortgage interest rates were around 18%.  Jobs that paid well were scarce.  We had some truly lean times before they got better. 

wanderin1

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #97 on: December 18, 2017, 07:24:18 PM »
While there absolutely have been structural changes to the economy that make things tough on millennials, the author of the original article makes many, many specious arguments. Just one example:

"In one of the most infuriating conversations I had for this article, my father breezily informed me that he bought his first house at 29. It was 1973, he had just moved to Seattle and his job as a university professor paid him (adjusted for inflation) around $76,000 a year. The house cost $124,000 — again, in today’s dollars. I am six years older now than my dad was then. I earn less than he did and the median home price in Seattle is around $730,000. My father’s first house cost him 20 months of his salary. My first house will cost more than 10 years of mine."

Do you know what Seattle was like in 1973? It was a heavily blue collar town, a provincial backwater stuck in the upper corner of the country. There was no Microsoft. No Amazon. No Starbucks. There was only Boeing, whose cyclical business regularly crashed the local economy. And the University of Washington? Far, far away from being a powerhouse university.

In 1973, most people in the US would have made fun of someone moving to Seattle. So if the author wants to analyze the generational challenges of housing costs, he needs to start with an accurate comparison. For example, today's average cost of a home in Muncie, Indiana,* is $81,000. And the average salary of a professor at Ball State University, located in Muncie, is $69,000.

* Sorry, Muncie and Ball State--no disrespect. Go Cardinals!


ysette9

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #98 on: December 18, 2017, 09:03:46 PM »
As an old millennial what I observe around me is that we may have all started out with approximately a level playing field while in high school, but small differences in opportunity and privilege over the years have compounded massively to make this yawning gap of achievement between people now in their 30s. It is like if you got on the right side of the opportunity divide by having middle class parents who could help you graduate debt-free, then you had a huge advantage over others. If you lucked into good advice on majors, you got out the other end being employable in something that would allow you the type of middle class lifestyle your parents had. I was lucky like that. For all the talk of personal responsibility choosing a good major, blah blah blah, you have to remember that we were children of 17 and 18 back in the late 90s/early 2000s, back in the cowboy days of the Internet, back when Wikipedia was a joke instead of an info source, back when the best info we were given was to go to college and major in something. I seriously debated between majoring in French and chemistry and no one gave me the slightest hint that one might be a better choice than the other. No, the more important thing was which one better reflected my inner passion and true calling in life.

I got lucky and got on the good end of the opportunity divide and I live a fortunate life now: good career, good income, spouse with similar career, house, kids, etc. I have friends whose parents couldn’t quite pay for college so they graduated with debt. Those for whom English came more naturally than math. Those for whom a career with a stable, big company with solid benefits either didn’t materialize or wasn’t their calling. These people have been screwed in comparison to me. I have watched friends work their rears off with no stability, no benefits, no health insurance, no chance of career growth. Sure, some of this is the result of personal choices. I sure as hell cant take credit for all of my success as I got lucky to be born into the family I did and I got lucky to get the breaks in life I did. I am definitely not the smartest or the hardest working but by now I am one of the richest. I see my generation like my cohort from high school:some of us are doing really great in this new really, some of us are really struggling, and the remaining are struggling to hold onto that middle ground that is increasingly disappearing.

gfirero

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Re: HP Article on how "Millenials are Screwed"
« Reply #99 on: December 18, 2017, 10:00:23 PM »
I think the late "Silent" generation had it the worst. 
https://theglyptodon.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/polio-caused-by-ice-cream/
No parent should have to tell their child: "If you eat ice cream you won't be able to walk again"

Of course, karma gave them this...
"But in their economic lives, this age location has been very good to them—and given them a lifetime ride on the up-escalator coming off the American High."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2014/08/13/the-silent-generation-the-lucky-few-part-3-of-7/#4bc212c22c63
And this...
"In fact, though Xers today outnumber the Silent by over 3-to-1, the Silent collectively possess nearly twice as much wealth."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2014/09/17/born-to-be-better-off-than-your-parents-a-recap-part-7-of-7/#7e14f112eb59

YMMV...