Author Topic: How to Makeover Education  (Read 5305 times)

wageslave23

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How to Makeover Education
« on: March 21, 2018, 08:01:18 AM »
I always think about the wasted 18+ years of my life I spent "learning" in grade school up through college. Here are my suggestions for making education more relevant to real life. 

In grade school and high school
Add more practical material such as: accounting, bookkeeping, negotiation, career development, life planning, raising children, relationship building, budgeting, investing, time value of money, taxes, posture, nutrition, sleep, exercise, basic plumbing and electrical and carpentry.

I've been out of high school for 20 yrs so I'm sure things have changed but computer skills should be about 30-50% of the material covered.  Coding, SEO, Office products, etc

Focus on the basics of history, math, science, etc.  Reading and writing are very important, as well as a solid understanding of the scientific method, and math skills up through basic algebra.  Whats not needed is reading a bunch of fiction novels (this should be a leisure activity when you are older and understand the themes), calculus, dates and locations of specific events in history (just the basic themes, everything else will be forgotten anyway and is easily googled).

By age 16 you should graduate from high school

College/Trade School
What is now a bachelors should be condensed down to what is currently the final two years.  Whats needed of the first two years bullshit can covered either in high school or the condensed 2 yr college time.

At least 50% of students should be encouraged to go to a hands on trade school or more practical specific career school instead of college.  This would focus on sales, trades, police, firefighters, customer service, bookkeeping, bus. admin, etc

Summary
It seems like only about 10% of whats currently taught ends up being useful later in life.  Kids are spending a quarter of their lives in school, only to be unprepared when they graduate.  Only a small minority of students will need the higher level understanding of theoretical concepts that is currently being taught to everyone.  Lets be more realistic, the world needs ditch diggers too ;)


mathlete

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2018, 08:11:42 AM »
It's tempting to just throw out the entire system, but I'm assuming you're a bit of a clever person yourself. If you were a smart kid, it's easy to look back on school and think it was all a big waste of time. But reading, writing, civics, math, and history are pretty important, and yet most adults aren't great at these things.

I think heaping a whole bunch of new subjects on and then graduating kids two years earlier might be an issue.

Public schools do a decent job at warehousing children for free while freeing their parents up to work. Ideally, you want more out of your schooling than that, but I think that's probably incumbent on the parents and the student more than anything.

wageslave23

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2018, 08:23:34 AM »
I agree that those subjects are important, but don't waste time going into great detail on some of the subjects that will not be used and forgotten anyways.  I'm a CPA and I'm constantly having to help clients understand finance, taxes, and accounting.  Even at the business owner level, I keep things simple because I know that if I go into too great of depth they won't understand it anyways.  So best to stick with the basics and teach them things they can understand and apply such as don't overdraw your bank account, for every dollar you earn 30% goes to taxes, etc.  And for harder concepts I tell them, that's what you pay me for. 

An example from my own life is that I just re-read "1984".  And looking back on reading it for the first time in 8th grade, I think what a waste of time that was.  I hated reading it and for good reason - its WAY over an 8th graders level of understanding.  Or looking back at learning about Sin() Cos() Tan(), integrals, derivatives, etc in HS.  Probably 5% of the population or less needs to know anything about those things.  Lets stick to the material that >80% will use.

tipster350

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2018, 09:08:54 AM »
Many subjects taught as part of general education do not have a 1:1 match between material taught and practical application in job or life. However, they are extremely important to provide a foundation of learning and to train your mind. You won't necessarily get all of the implications from 1984 as a teenager but later in life your education, training, and life experience all converge and enable you to think critically, succeed in a career, and be an informed citizen and voter.

College is more than vocational training, as is your k-12 education.

I've heard variations of your argument since college, and it always came from the engineering and math-oriented majors.

I don't disagree that many students now told college is the only path should be directed instead to trade school.

Cranky

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2018, 09:21:11 AM »
You should totally be a teacher!

(rofl)

wageslave23

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2018, 09:42:36 AM »
I would love to be a teacher.  I've actually looked into going back to school for a teaching certificate.  I imagine myself being like George in the movie "Blow" when his teaches a class in prison.  "I'll make a deal with you, pay attention and memorize the periodic table during the first part of class and then I'll use the second half of class to teach you how to retire by 30".

Gondolin

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2018, 10:20:19 AM »
Oy. Where to start with this? Unfortunately, I'm on my phone and can't go point by point.

First, curriculums are always under negotiation and there's a large gap between "things I wish I had known at 18" and "topics that society universally agrees a child should have exposure to". I agree that practical finance is underrepresented in modern curriculums but, plumbing and posture lessons for every student? Really?

I know your heart is in the right place but, you're falling victim to a fallacy very common in accountants, engineers, SW devs and other mathy types - the need for efficiency. People write posts like this because they look at curriculums where every student gets roughly the same material and think, "How can I get rid of all this "waste"?". So many future marketing execs wasting their time with geometry, so many future engineers wasting their time with Chaucer, there must be a better way!

But there's not a better way because you don't know what each kid is going to become. The only way to reduce the "waste" is to test kids when they're 8 years old and shunt them into specialized schools based on their probable occupations. This method creates obvious problems - who decides how kids are classified, how the variant curriculums will be funded, etc. as well as being a major injustice to the kids themselves who, presumably, have some right to determine their own future.

Again, I get that you're coming from a place of love but these sorts of "throw out the classics so we can teach more carpentry" proposals are always fatally flawed.

mm1970

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2018, 10:22:11 AM »
I'm an engineer, I use calculus!

wageslave23

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2018, 10:42:14 AM »
Oy. Where to start with this? Unfortunately, I'm on my phone and can't go point by point.

First, curriculums are always under negotiation and there's a large gap between "things I wish I had known at 18" and "topics that society universally agrees a child should have exposure to". I agree that practical finance is underrepresented in modern curriculums but, plumbing and posture lessons for every student? Really?

I know your heart is in the right place but, you're falling victim to a fallacy very common in accountants, engineers, SW devs and other mathy types - the need for efficiency. People write posts like this because they look at curriculums where every student gets roughly the same material and think, "How can I get rid of all this "waste"?". So many future marketing execs wasting their time with geometry, so many future engineers wasting their time with Chaucer, there must be a better way!

But there's not a better way because you don't know what each kid is going to become. The only way to reduce the "waste" is to test kids when they're 8 years old and shunt them into specialized schools based on their probable occupations. This method creates obvious problems - who decides how kids are classified, how the variant curriculums will be funded, etc. as well as being a major injustice to the kids themselves who, presumably, have some right to determine their own future.

Again, I get that you're coming from a place of love but these sorts of "throw out the classics so we can teach more carpentry" proposals are always fatally flawed.

I don't think there is a need to figure out what everyone is going to become at an early age.  I'm proposing that the first 16 yrs of life be spent learning the basics of how to be a productive, successful, and happy human being.  Since we don't know what each person is going to become, we stick with general knowledge thats applicable to everyone (i.e the things already listed).  Then at graduation you can split into your specific field of interest.  Even if you are going to become a scientist, the "science" you learn in high school is not going to help you.  Just teach the scientific method and other basics.  I'm not disagreeing with you or the other poster that said you need to know more than just your professional field of knowledge.  I'm saying lets look at what helps the majority of people later in life and stick to that.  Then after graduation, get more specific to your field.  Its a question of marginal return.  Is reading the 20th classic novel in english lit. more useful than spending a couple weeks on posture?  Ask anyone older than 40, and I think I can guess which they would have rather learned in hs.

wageslave23

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2018, 10:46:24 AM »
My bachelors is in psychology so I fully appreciate the social sciences and other non-STEM degrees
 

Chrissy

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2018, 11:07:39 AM »
No need to reinvent the wheel when other countries are getting it right.  Finland is a fine example:  require a Master's, pay well, adopt standards that align with neurological development, no homework, no standardized tests, short days/weeks but in session year-round, lots of outdoor play, good food, and private schools may not charge tuition.

wageslave23

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2018, 11:21:00 AM »
No need to reinvent the wheel when other countries are getting it right.  Finland is a fine example:  require a Master's, pay well, adopt standards that align with neurological development, no homework, no standardized tests, short days/weeks but in session year-round, lots of outdoor play, good food, and private schools may not charge tuition.

I like some of these suggestions, although I'm on the opposite end of the mandatory Master's debate.  I don't think K-12 teachers need more than a bachelors.  But I also don't think primary care physicians need more than a bachelors - so I know I'm in the minority.


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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2018, 11:51:00 AM »
I always think about the wasted 18+ years of my life I spent "learning" in grade school up through college. Here are my suggestions for making education more relevant to real life. 

In grade school and high school
Add more practical material such as: accounting, bookkeeping, negotiation, career development, life planning, raising children, relationship building, budgeting, investing, time value of money, taxes, posture, nutrition, sleep, exercise, basic plumbing and electrical and carpentry.

I've been out of high school for 20 yrs so I'm sure things have changed but computer skills should be about 30-50% of the material covered.  Coding, SEO, Office products, etc

Focus on the basics of history, math, science, etc.  Reading and writing are very important, as well as a solid understanding of the scientific method, and math skills up through basic algebra.  Whats not needed is reading a bunch of fiction novels (this should be a leisure activity when you are older and understand the themes), calculus, dates and locations of specific events in history (just the basic themes, everything else will be forgotten anyway and is easily googled).

By age 16 you should graduate from high school
Most of what you want taught is alreay offered at the High school level here. I took basic accounting, relationship building, math (time value of money was taught in grade 10), gym class (exercise) and plumbing/electrical/carpentry are offered in shop class. Home Economics? Budgeting, nutrition, health (sleep), life planning and more.

I learned most of my electrical knowledge in school, by taking electives. Exercise was taught throughout including obscure sports such as cross country skiing but also running, basic fitness, stretching exercises etc. One of my favourites was Music, I loved band class, it was my first introduction to playing musical instruments. I don't use it today, but I also don't dig ditches anymore.

Were you not offered electives in any of your school experiences? College and University are full of them, I thought everyone had that in HS as well.

wageslave23

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2018, 12:35:43 PM »
Yes, we had some of that in HS offered as electives.   But college bound kids were pushed to take AP Lit, calc, physics, chem, bio, etc.  So there wasn't anytime for home-ec, shop, etc.  I think those classes are universally beneficial so they should be part of the core curriculum.

wageslave23

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2018, 01:16:33 PM »
Panda - I enjoyed your responses.  They are good counterpoints/pushback.  Yes, SEO should not have been on the list.  I guess what I'm getting at is that if you know how to read, write, basic math, computers, research, critical thinking, people skills, problem solving - then you can do and learn anything that you want.  The dates, events, facts are irrelevant so less time spent on learning these, the more that can be spent on basic life skills and graduating earlier.  The most useful thing I learned was from a Calc teacher that said, if you can look it up or use a calculator to do it then you don't need to learn it. 

Cranky

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2018, 02:06:19 PM »
But learning how to do the problem is how you learn what to look up. The problems that kids have in math aren't generally punching numbers in - the problem is that they don't know what numbers to punch in. Learning how to read a problem is very, very hard for many people. (Notice how many people loathe word problems, which is the curricular attempt to connect math to Real Life.)

It seems to me that the people on this board who most loathe and despise their jobs are the ones in computer related fields, so I have a hard to recommending that anyone spend 50% of their education on that.

What puzzles me is that you think that those things aren't being taught in school, and I think that they are. My youngest is 5 years out of high school, but she had budgeting and how to apply for jobs and plenty of practical stuff.

The issue, I fear, is not the curriculum but how to get it into the student. Your average teenager is no more more interested in learning how to do taxes than how to do calculus, IME.

mm1970

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2018, 02:52:27 PM »
Panda - I enjoyed your responses.  They are good counterpoints/pushback.  Yes, SEO should not have been on the list.  I guess what I'm getting at is that if you know how to read, write, basic math, computers, research, critical thinking, people skills, problem solving - then you can do and learn anything that you want.  The dates, events, facts are irrelevant so less time spent on learning these, the more that can be spent on basic life skills and graduating earlier.  The most useful thing I learned was from a Calc teacher that said, if you can look it up or use a calculator to do it then you don't need to learn it.

How far out from school are you?  Because my kids are in elementary school, and they are basically teaching reading, writing, reading for comprehension (because every math test now is just word problems), computers, critical thinking, problem solving.

wageslave23

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2018, 03:08:01 PM »
Thats awesome.  I guess I was of the transition generation where education hadn't caught up to the demands of the real world. 

klabe

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2018, 06:32:07 PM »
Even if you are going to become a scientist, the "science" you learn in high school is not going to help you.

As a professional scientist, I can disabuse you of the notion that high school science is useless.  As a matter of fact, the basics of science and mathematics (physics, calculus, etc.) that I learned in high school absolutely helped me advance through the remainder of my education.

I think it is also wrong to assume that people can decide how they want to specialize without a real exposure to lots of different subjects.  I certainly wouldn't have ended up a physicist if I had never seen physics in High School.  I don't feel that all the other subjects I learned to a similar depth in high school (literature, foreign languages, history, etc.) were a waste just because I didn't decide to specialize in those areas.  People need a chance to explore before they can know what they want to do.

Or looking back at learning about Sin() Cos() Tan(), integrals, derivatives, etc in HS.  Probably 5% of the population or less needs to know anything about those things.  Lets stick to the material that >80% will use.

It's all well and good to serve the 80%, but how are you going to get the remaining 20% of experts into their expert-level jobs if they've never even been exposed to those subjects?

TheWifeHalf

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2018, 09:24:08 PM »
My kids went to the same school I did, and my Mom worked for them too, so I kind of knew where we, as parents, would have to supplement what they were learning. It’s a country school, in farm land, 700 kids in the schools. Now, there’s one elementary, one jr high, one high school, all on what was once a corn field.

To describe the school’s philosophy, small story:

In the 60’s, a new high school  was built, there were a couple of grade schools (including one was the old high school that my Dad went to) and one jr high. They were all spread around, 15-20 miles between some.

The land the football field was on, was rented for $1, but would return to the owner when a new field was built.

The cornfield where the high school was built, the farmer kept the other land, knowing that eventually all the schools, and the sports fields, would all be there.  The high school was designed so that a jr high could be built attached to it, which happened in 2000.

In about 2009, the elementary school was built behind the high school/jr high.
And then all the sports fields and stadiums were built on the same farm field.

The old football field went back to the owner, a grade school was demolished, the other buildings were bought and to be honest, we went by them a few days ago and it looks like life but we have no idea what they’re being used for.

So that’s an example of the mentality of this place. Do things as funds become available, plan ahead, and do them to last.

TheHusbandHalf and I decided I would stay home and help raise the kids, while he worked.  I remember when they were little they were told that Daddy goes to work, that’s his job, and their job is to be a kid, but while being a kid, find out what their talents were. They were told everyone has at least one talent, some more. So, we helped expose them to many things, whatever they seemed interested in  at the time.

Out here 4-H was a summer activity and I remember some of the projects were electricity, plumbing, gardening, and small animals.  It helped them to decide what they liked, or where their talents were.  Sewing, cooking, stuff that used to be taught in home ec. were things my daughter participated in.  Our oldest worked at a golf course in the summer when he was  high school age and he said some days he would help the owner work on his house. We were going through major remodeling then, (when are we not???) so the boys picked up a lot of knowledge there too.
He went to a 5 county vocational high school for his jr and sr years, which allowed him to take classes at the community college across the street and return each day to the home school to play on the golf team. He graduated from high school with 35 college credits, all on the taxpayers dime. I don’t think the high school has AP classes now, but maybe they do.

Accounting, life skills, home maintenance, minor car repairs were all stuff they learned at home, or with my Dad.

We kept an eye on what they were taught in school, and like I said, we supplemented. Though we are proud of all 3, our youngest son was proof to us that the school was ok, and what we did was ok, because he tested into the Nuclear Propulsion rate of the Navy. (takes a smart kid to do that)

Over the years, every graduating class seems to have at least one doctor, scientists, education majors, etc.

To be honest, what would not be taught, to fit in some of the things you’re talking about? I don’t remember there being a lot of ‘fluff.’  There's only so much that can be done in a day. I got it straight from a professional's (psychiatrist) mouth that kids need time to just be kids, and they are kids at least through high school.

As parents, I feel it's our responsibility to try and fill in where the school is not going into depth. It was also our job to make sure they had down time, the ration of time being selected by their age and their individual need.

Morning Glory

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2018, 10:09:40 PM »
Yes, we had some of that in HS offered as electives.   But college bound kids were pushed to take AP Lit, calc, physics, chem, bio, etc.  So there wasn't anytime for home-ec, shop, etc.  I think those classes are universally beneficial so they should be part of the core curriculum.
I had a similar experience to you. I graduated in the late 90s and had to teach myself typing once I got to college, I remember writing my papers out in cursive and then painstakingly typing them out. I never had shop, home ec, accounting, any of that stuff either. The attitude at the time was that if you study hard you can pay someone to do all that. The Latin was somewhat helpful for my college anatomy class. Those lit classes sure manage to suck all the joy out of reading though.
 

Prairie Stash

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2018, 12:23:41 PM »
Yes, we had some of that in HS offered as electives.   But college bound kids were pushed to take AP Lit, calc, physics, chem, bio, etc.  So there wasn't anytime for home-ec, shop, etc.  I think those classes are universally beneficial so they should be part of the core curriculum.
So you were offered everything and chose not to learn? Now you regret taking biology over shop, even though biology was an elective? I'm assuming accountants aren't required to have grade 12 biology to get into accounting school. I was only required to take 3-4 classes/semester to get every class needed for University, I had a lot of random electives. In University I took some random classes, I studied electrical and learned to wire lightbulbs as part of the lab portion. After convocation I took several more extension classes, by choice. I felt I had gaps in my knowledge so I kept taking classes; while working.

I guess the other option available to every student is to attend an extra year of HS and take all the electives. There was no law saying you can't take grade 13. Granted it delays getting into university and into the working world; is it better to delay the launch of students or teach them more random subjects?

At what point does an individual have reponsibilty to learn material vs. the state requiring them to learn?  No where is there a prohibition on continuing your education, it's a persons individual choice to stop at some point. Are you arguing that your choice should have been decided for you by someone else?

CSuzette

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2018, 02:11:17 PM »
No one mentioned music. I was in orchestra and choir so no room for other electives. I would have loved to take shop. Now I am not mechanically inclined :-)

wageslave23

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2018, 02:30:18 PM »
Yes, we had some of that in HS offered as electives.   But college bound kids were pushed to take AP Lit, calc, physics, chem, bio, etc.  So there wasn't anytime for home-ec, shop, etc.  I think those classes are universally beneficial so they should be part of the core curriculum.
So you were offered everything and chose not to learn? Now you regret taking biology over shop, even though biology was an elective? I'm assuming accountants aren't required to have grade 12 biology to get into accounting school. I was only required to take 3-4 classes/semester to get every class needed for University, I had a lot of random electives. In University I took some random classes, I studied electrical and learned to wire lightbulbs as part of the lab portion. After convocation I took several more extension classes, by choice. I felt I had gaps in my knowledge so I kept taking classes; while working.

I guess the other option available to every student is to attend an extra year of HS and take all the electives. There was no law saying you can't take grade 13. Granted it delays getting into university and into the working world; is it better to delay the launch of students or teach them more random subjects?

At what point does an individual have reponsibilty to learn material vs. the state requiring them to learn?  No where is there a prohibition on continuing your education, it's a persons individual choice to stop at some point. Are you arguing that your choice should have been decided for you by someone else?

I'm guessing by your response that you did not go to college in the US.  I only selected elective classes that would count for college gen ed requirements credit.  I shaved a 1.5 yrs off undergrad that way, but I'd rather get rid of some of the gen ed requirements for college/ reduce some of the middle school years of required content. 

Acorns

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2018, 02:38:46 PM »
I am surprised you don't include learning a world language starting in Kindergarten. From a US perspective, this is one way I think we are way behind the rest of the world. I greatly regret only speaking one language and am doing my best to make sure my kids are at least conversationally bilingual.

Prairie Stash

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2018, 02:57:42 PM »
Yes, we had some of that in HS offered as electives.   But college bound kids were pushed to take AP Lit, calc, physics, chem, bio, etc.  So there wasn't anytime for home-ec, shop, etc.  I think those classes are universally beneficial so they should be part of the core curriculum.
So you were offered everything and chose not to learn? Now you regret taking biology over shop, even though biology was an elective? I'm assuming accountants aren't required to have grade 12 biology to get into accounting school. I was only required to take 3-4 classes/semester to get every class needed for University, I had a lot of random electives. In University I took some random classes, I studied electrical and learned to wire lightbulbs as part of the lab portion. After convocation I took several more extension classes, by choice. I felt I had gaps in my knowledge so I kept taking classes; while working.

I guess the other option available to every student is to attend an extra year of HS and take all the electives. There was no law saying you can't take grade 13. Granted it delays getting into university and into the working world; is it better to delay the launch of students or teach them more random subjects?

At what point does an individual have reponsibilty to learn material vs. the state requiring them to learn?  No where is there a prohibition on continuing your education, it's a persons individual choice to stop at some point. Are you arguing that your choice should have been decided for you by someone else?

I'm guessing by your response that you did not go to college in the US.  I only selected elective classes that would count for college gen ed requirements credit.  I shaved a 1.5 yrs off undergrad that way, but I'd rather get rid of some of the gen ed requirements for college/ reduce some of the middle school years of required content.
Nope, I only paid $50k (roughly) for my university, paid by student loans (some scholarships and bursaries), it was pretty sweet. There is a difference between college and university, they are different tiers. A university designation is reserved for Harvard and down to state universities. Below that is the college program, all the way down to community college. Both offer great programs, the college experience is generally shorter duration and streamlines. The University program is typically lonnger and requires more electives. Its a personal choice which is best for an individual. Both have different costs.

If you want to shave off classes, thats the argument for requiring less, not more. But back to the other side, you chose not to take electives in HS when they were free. I'm guessing you wanted a short HS experience as well, fully understandable.

How do you compare your desire to have the shortest schooling possible with your intent to have more requisite schooling for others? Isn't that hypocritical to say you shortened your schooling but others should have extended schooling?


wageslave23

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2018, 03:04:41 PM »
Yes, we had some of that in HS offered as electives.   But college bound kids were pushed to take AP Lit, calc, physics, chem, bio, etc.  So there wasn't anytime for home-ec, shop, etc.  I think those classes are universally beneficial so they should be part of the core curriculum.
So you were offered everything and chose not to learn? Now you regret taking biology over shop, even though biology was an elective? I'm assuming accountants aren't required to have grade 12 biology to get into accounting school. I was only required to take 3-4 classes/semester to get every class needed for University, I had a lot of random electives. In University I took some random classes, I studied electrical and learned to wire lightbulbs as part of the lab portion. After convocation I took several more extension classes, by choice. I felt I had gaps in my knowledge so I kept taking classes; while working.

I guess the other option available to every student is to attend an extra year of HS and take all the electives. There was no law saying you can't take grade 13. Granted it delays getting into university and into the working world; is it better to delay the launch of students or teach them more random subjects?

At what point does an individual have reponsibilty to learn material vs. the state requiring them to learn?  No where is there a prohibition on continuing your education, it's a persons individual choice to stop at some point. Are you arguing that your choice should have been decided for you by someone else?

I'm guessing by your response that you did not go to college in the US.  I only selected elective classes that would count for college gen ed requirements credit.  I shaved a 1.5 yrs off undergrad that way, but I'd rather get rid of some of the gen ed requirements for college/ reduce some of the middle school years of required content.
Nope, I only paid $50k (roughly) for my university, paid by student loans (some scholarships and bursaries), it was pretty sweet. There is a difference between college and university, they are different tiers. A university designation is reserved for Harvard and down to state universities. Below that is the college program, all the way down to community college. Both offer great programs, the college experience is generally shorter duration and streamlines. The University program is typically lonnger and requires more electives. Its a personal choice which is best for an individual. Both have different costs.

If you want to shave off classes, thats the argument for requiring less, not more. But back to the other side, you chose not to take electives in HS when they were free. I'm guessing you wanted a short HS experience as well, fully understandable.

How do you compare your desire to have the shortest schooling possible with your intent to have more requisite schooling for others? Isn't that hypocritical to say you shortened your schooling but others should have extended schooling?

I want certain things added to the curriculum, but even more taken out.  I proposed graduating high school at 16 and having 2 yrs of college/university afterwards.  So the majority of people would be done with college at 18.  What would I take out?  The repetition, the in depth study of gen eds.  I think a summary, intro version of history, sciences etc is adequate for pre-college learning.  Let the student study more in depth and at a higher level in college for the specific industry she chooses.

mm1970

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2018, 03:13:03 PM »
My kids went to the same school I did, and my Mom worked for them too, so I kind of knew where we, as parents, would have to supplement what they were learning. It’s a country school, in farm land, 700 kids in the schools. Now, there’s one elementary, one jr high, one high school, all on what was once a corn field.

To describe the school’s philosophy, small story:

In the 60’s, a new high school  was built, there were a couple of grade schools (including one was the old high school that my Dad went to) and one jr high. They were all spread around, 15-20 miles between some.

The land the football field was on, was rented for $1, but would return to the owner when a new field was built.

The cornfield where the high school was built, the farmer kept the other land, knowing that eventually all the schools, and the sports fields, would all be there.  The high school was designed so that a jr high could be built attached to it, which happened in 2000.

In about 2009, the elementary school was built behind the high school/jr high.
And then all the sports fields and stadiums were built on the same farm field.

The old football field went back to the owner, a grade school was demolished, the other buildings were bought and to be honest, we went by them a few days ago and it looks like life but we have no idea what they’re being used for.

So that’s an example of the mentality of this place. Do things as funds become available, plan ahead, and do them to last.

TheHusbandHalf and I decided I would stay home and help raise the kids, while he worked.  I remember when they were little they were told that Daddy goes to work, that’s his job, and their job is to be a kid, but while being a kid, find out what their talents were. They were told everyone has at least one talent, some more. So, we helped expose them to many things, whatever they seemed interested in  at the time.

Out here 4-H was a summer activity and I remember some of the projects were electricity, plumbing, gardening, and small animals.  It helped them to decide what they liked, or where their talents were.  Sewing, cooking, stuff that used to be taught in home ec. were things my daughter participated in.  Our oldest worked at a golf course in the summer when he was  high school age and he said some days he would help the owner work on his house. We were going through major remodeling then, (when are we not???) so the boys picked up a lot of knowledge there too.
He went to a 5 county vocational high school for his jr and sr years, which allowed him to take classes at the community college across the street and return each day to the home school to play on the golf team. He graduated from high school with 35 college credits, all on the taxpayers dime. I don’t think the high school has AP classes now, but maybe they do.

Accounting, life skills, home maintenance, minor car repairs were all stuff they learned at home, or with my Dad.

We kept an eye on what they were taught in school, and like I said, we supplemented. Though we are proud of all 3, our youngest son was proof to us that the school was ok, and what we did was ok, because he tested into the Nuclear Propulsion rate of the Navy. (takes a smart kid to do that)

Over the years, every graduating class seems to have at least one doctor, scientists, education majors, etc.

To be honest, what would not be taught, to fit in some of the things you’re talking about? I don’t remember there being a lot of ‘fluff.’  There's only so much that can be done in a day. I got it straight from a professional's (psychiatrist) mouth that kids need time to just be kids, and they are kids at least through high school.

As parents, I feel it's our responsibility to try and fill in where the school is not going into depth. It was also our job to make sure they had down time, the ration of time being selected by their age and their individual need.

You basically described my upbringing, rural town (though we didn't have a football team and they still don't!)  Very small school.  And...two of my cousins were Navy Nukes (enlisted) and I was a nuke (officer) too.  I have cousins from the same school with PhDs in astrophysics, molecular biology, plus I know there are a few PAs and doctors from there too.

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2018, 03:36:41 PM »

I want certain things added to the curriculum, but even more taken out.  I proposed graduating high school at 16 and having 2 yrs of college/university afterwards.  So the majority of people would be done with college at 18.  What would I take out?  The repetition, the in depth study of gen eds.  I think a summary, intro version of history, sciences etc is adequate for pre-college learning.  Let the student study more in depth and at a higher level in college for the specific industry she chooses.
So more like the german system? I suggest reading up on it to flesh out your ideas. The best improvements for the education system are often found in other countries, its true for every country including mine.

Not being german, from the outside they have three tracks. The University track, college track and trade track (college and university have different meanings in different countries). Starting in primary school you get slotted into your track and skip the non required courses. The down side is that if you are on the trade track, university will be out of reach. THe opposite is also true, if you are on the University track, you can't become a tradesperson without requiring catching up.

Since we all agree there needs to be some super educated folks, there will always be a need for a university track. What you describe sounds like a desire for a streamlined college track.

wageslave23

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2018, 07:12:24 AM »

I want certain things added to the curriculum, but even more taken out.  I proposed graduating high school at 16 and having 2 yrs of college/university afterwards.  So the majority of people would be done with college at 18.  What would I take out?  The repetition, the in depth study of gen eds.  I think a summary, intro version of history, sciences etc is adequate for pre-college learning.  Let the student study more in depth and at a higher level in college for the specific industry she chooses.
So more like the german system? I suggest reading up on it to flesh out your ideas. The best improvements for the education system are often found in other countries, its true for every country including mine.

Not being german, from the outside they have three tracks. The University track, college track and trade track (college and university have different meanings in different countries). Starting in primary school you get slotted into your track and skip the non required courses. The down side is that if you are on the trade track, university will be out of reach. THe opposite is also true, if you are on the University track, you can't become a tradesperson without requiring catching up.

Since we all agree there needs to be some super educated folks, there will always be a need for a university track. What you describe sounds like a desire for a streamlined college track.

Yes, tracks are part of it.  I guess you could say that there are two different factors in the amount of education given: Breadth and Depth. I think the breadth of k-12 education is correct, but the depth could be decreased in order to more quickly get to the point of divergence.  That way at age 16 you graduate from the common track and can select your specific track more quickly.  The secondary (specific) track would be the university or trade track.  This should be the same depth as it is now, but less breadth than it is currently so that you would graduate from University or trade in two years at the age of 18.    The overall effect would be people that are just as capable at their jobs, but didn't need to spend as much time and money on education.

The separate issue is adding the topics that I mentioned most of which could be taught within a couple weeks at an hour a day.

Roadrunner53

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2018, 08:15:20 AM »
I wish they would have a class that would teach the kids how to handle money in a real life scenario. Where they had to make decisions on paying rent or buying a new TV. This would all be imaginary situations but it would give them a real life view into what to expect. Expose them to situations with credit cards. These are things that happen in real life. I could imagine this class taking a full school year to complete. From getting the job, finding a place to live, furnishing it, paying the bills, dealing with broken appliances, buying a car, dealing with car repairs. Making decisions on buying something fun or buying food. Buying fast food or buying groceries. At the end of the class, you would see how many kids did good, did average or had to file for bankruptcy.

Also, one thing that haunted me thru my work life was the lack of knowing algebra. Never had it in school and tried to learn it on my own but couldn't wrap my head around it. The lack of knowing it prevented me from promotions.

Just Joe

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2018, 09:07:52 AM »
I wish they would have a class that would teach the kids how to handle money in a real life scenario. Where they had to make decisions on paying rent or buying a new TV. This would all be imaginary situations but it would give them a real life view into what to expect. Expose them to situations with credit cards. These are things that happen in real life. I could imagine this class taking a full school year to complete. From getting the job, finding a place to live, furnishing it, paying the bills, dealing with broken appliances, buying a car, dealing with car repairs. Making decisions on buying something fun or buying food. Buying fast food or buying groceries. At the end of the class, you would see how many kids did good, did average or had to file for bankruptcy.

Also, one thing that haunted me thru my work life was the lack of knowing algebra. Never had it in school and tried to learn it on my own but couldn't wrap my head around it. The lack of knowing it prevented me from promotions.

DW and I are expanding on subjects our kids are taught in school but might not get enough of. Like MMM forum style personal finance and frugality. Like history which is a watered down version taught in our schools. Like home economics type subjects. Autoshop. Carpentry. Computers.

Our approach has been very informal. A little here and a little there.

Included in these efforts has even been TV.

I'm excited to watch "Til Debt We Part" with my family that was mentioned here in the past few days. We watched some episodes of "Canada's Worst Driver". It helped our teen be aware that not everyone takes driving seriously. Even if its reality TV, if it makes an lasting positive impression it is worth it.

On the topic of algerbra: Khan Academy. Free. Online. Teaching videos and exercises. Worth your time if you are interested.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 12:24:01 PM by Just Joe »

tyler2016

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2018, 10:45:51 AM »
Education needs to be changed, yes. But consider the political impact. Education changes will affect how people vote.

School is where education goes to die. The US education system makes learning work. I'm sure most of you agree that learning new things of all types is a satisfying experience. When you start adding pointless memorization, asking absurd questions that turn opinions into facts, and failing to communicate the value in learning a topic, giving excessive homework, it kills any natural curiosity.

As far as more practical stuff like finance and life skills go, definitely. Add communication and interpersonal skills too.

It is also absurd that US public schools will spend huge amounts of money on sports equipment, iPads, and other junk yet not provide lunches or supplies that is disproportionately expensive to poor people.

I don't know how schools allow the level of bullying that occurs within their own walls. From my experience, teachers and staff definitely see it. The things some kids get away with would get adults arrested. I'm not suggesting arresting the perpetrators, but do SOMETHING to address it. Counseling, separate classes, parental involvement to start.

wageslave23

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2018, 02:50:07 PM »


School is where education goes to die. The US education system makes learning work. I'm sure most of you agree that learning new things of all types is a satisfying experience. When you start adding pointless memorization, asking absurd questions that turn opinions into facts, and failing to communicate the value in learning a topic, giving excessive homework, it kills any natural curiosity.



+1

I didn't realize how much I love reading, learning, creating, researching until after I was out of hs and had the freedom to learn without "work".

Shropskr

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Re: How to Makeover Education
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2018, 08:38:41 AM »
One thing I'd change is to stop segregating the kids by age.   Put the elementary, middle and high school into a high rise bldg. text all the kids in kindergarten when they come in and start where they are. Give em the year to adapt. Then put all the kids on class separtion Just like the high school. Let the 1 st grader go to year 3 math, year 1 science, and year 1 pe. Let the 7th grader go to year 7 science, year 5 reading.    Teach the kids where they are not by age but by ability.

Ok I'll get off my soapbox now. :)

 

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