2 things that bother me about FIRE.

[QueyWet]

Hi.
I am not from the US, but I have recently discovered the FIRE movement and I started reading a lot about it and watching videos on Youtube about it.
I plan on implementing in my life (I am in my mid 20's) and start living frugally and start saving as much as I can so I can start investing.
However I have 2 things bother about FIRE:

1) If everyone will retire early, wouldn't the economy collapse eventually due to lack of workers?
(This might be mitigated by using robots but we are not there yet and some jobs cannot be replaced by robots).

2) The whole premise of the FIRE movement is basically :
"Sacrifice the present moment for a good future"
But the thing is , life is dangerous.
Nothing is guaranteed (besides death).
We can die of anything at any moment - accident, terminal illness and so on.
Isn't it better to enjoy life in the present moment rathar than live frugally and save money for a future moment that
might never come?.

Thanks in advance for anyone who will try to answer this.

[jim555]

1) Never going to happen.  Why worry about things that won't happen.

2) True.  Risking for the future is a bad bet if you have no future.

[englishteacheralex]

Question #1: Easy. Not everyone will retire early. Very, very few people will. No point in wondering about this hypothetical question, in my opinion.

Question #2: You have misinterpreted the fundamental underpinnings of the purpose of the frugality in this worldview. It is not to delay materialism. It is to acknowledge other sources of happiness besides materialism. The MMM thing is rooted in contentedness apart from spending money. If you're being frugal in order to delay materialism until you have reached a point where you have enough money to do so, you're not really in the MMM worldview.

In other words, the frugality is actually an immediate source of contentedness, not a delayed source. Saving money is fun. Spending it hurts.

For the record, I am not a proponent of early retirement, though I am a proponent of frugality. Personally, I take great pleasure in my career and have no desire to stop being employed. But I still practice frugality, and see a lot of value in financial independence so that a person is not beholden to paid employment. I don't feel that I am delaying enjoyment of my money--if I were to die tomorrow, I would not feel that I had missed out by being frugal. 

[Zikoris]

1. No.

2. Your understanding of FIRE is completely wrong. You live an awesome life and do all the fun things NOW, and just figure out a way to save tons of money at the same time. Then you retire and ramp up the awesome fun things even more. If you're sacrificing and suffering you're doing it totally wrong, go back to square one and fix that shit.

[CheapScholar]

Pretty much what was said above.  I’ll just add:

1.  Even if FIRE did somehow become very popular, people would still need to work hard for 10 years or more to save up enough capital.  That’s a lot of labor.

2.  This isn’t for everybody.  Personally, I live well below my means and I don’t feel I’m missing out at all.  I honestly wouldn’t want a luxury car, 5 bedroom McMansion or annual trips to Disney World.  I have a decent car (but I’m actually happier on days when the weather is good and I can bike), love my 3 bedroom middle class home, and I’d rather hang out and hike at a National Park than stand in lines in the sun at Disney.  You can have an awesome life living frugally but society has been telling you otherwise. 

[Indexer]

1.  Not happening. If it happened it would depress the economy, but most people live consumerist lifestyles so if anything we are just balancing the scales.


2. Define sacrifice.  I drive a Corolla when I could afford a BMW. Am I sacrificing? I get from point A to B in the same amount of time, using less gas which means less trips to the gas station, and it requires very little maintenance compared to a BMW so less time at the service station. I'm saving time and a ton of money and all I'm giving up is a 'status symbol'. If a status symbol wastes time, energy, and years of my life then I might as well be the Emperor wearing no clothes.

I live in a 1200 square foot condo in a great part of town instead of a McMansion. I'm in the best zipcode for 1/8th of the price of the median home in this area. In addition to paying 8 times as much, the big house would require a lot more upkeep, not just financially, but also in terms of my time and effort. Again, the minimalist option gives me a better quality of life in exchange for giving up a 'status symbol'.

All I'm giving up are status symbols and I get to retire decades early in exchange. That doesn't sound like sacrifice at all!  Actually the other option, wasting years of my life to acquire status symbols feels like it would be the sacrifice! There are no status symbols worth years of my life. I guess other people must REALLY care about that... or more likely... they haven't really thought about it.

[MrThatsDifferent]

1. Yes, but since that won’t happen, don’t waste your mental energy on it. You focus on you.

2. It’s not about being frugal. It’s about what you value. You should live your best life at all times. What I learned is, my best life doesn’t mean I’m eating out all the time, driving a fancy car or living in a mansion with a pool. I can afford all of that, but I don’t need any of that. What I do value now is travel, so that’s where I put my energy, experiences, not things. I don’t try to be frugal with my expenses, I try to be smart and strategic. If I can have the same experience but stretch my money, then I can have more experiences. Just makes sense. Also, if I’m smart and strategic about how I structure my money and investments now, I give myself the opportunity to live without formal work and can experience more while I’m healthy and able. That’s legitimately exciting and I’m more than willing to shift energy from things that don’t give me as much joy as what I’m working towards.

So, reframe your thinking from frugality and sacrifice to strategy and opportunity. That will help guide you without you feeling like you’re losing something now. You’re actually gaining more power, choice and freedom with your present and your future.

[Metalcat]

Neither of these are real issues.

In fact, there are no issues with FIRE, because all it literally means is wasting less *unnecessary* spending in order to retire earlier than you would if you mindlessly spent according to the rampant consumerism of our culture.

How much you choose to spend is up to you. How early you choose to retire is up to you.

FIRE is just about learning what those numbers are for you, and if you are miserable along the way, you are doing it wrong.

If you've read any MMM posts, then you will learn that the whole point is actually to build a better life through frugality, and has absolutely nothing to do with self deprivation.

Take some time with the content and you will see that your concerns have been addressed over and over and over and over and over and that they are 100% non issues.

Figuring out how to actually be happy???
That's a whole other kettle of fish.
Good luck.

[FIRE 20/20]

Both of these have been addressed on the blog.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/10/05/the-fire-movement/

I really take issue with #2 on your list.  It couldn't be more wrong, but it's the top misconception I've encountered when discussing FIRE with people outside this forum.  FIRE is NOT about "sacrificing the present moment for a good future".  If you think that you've fundamentally misunderstood this entire movement (if I can use such a grandiose term).  If you find that saving today is sacrificing your happiness, then you're probably either saving too much or you haven't really adopted the idea that once you pass a certain level of spending everything above that only produces marginal or zero real increased happiness.  Is sailing on a yacht really more enjoyable than kayaking?  Is visiting a National Park really less enjoyable than watching TV?  Does owning (and cleaning!) a huge house really make you happier than a smaller one?  There will certainly be things you need to spend money on to increase your happiness today - maybe it's great music, plays, fine wine, or something else, and that's ok.  You don't want to live in austerity if it makes you miserable.  But at some point when you truly see how incorrect the following equation is:
spend more money = greater happiness
- that's when you're really on the FIRE path.  That minimum spending level is different for everyone, and sadly there are billions of people around the world who will never get up to that level of income.  But, if you're on this board and have started to save with the idea you could achieve FIRE then you're probably not one of them.  It takes time to get out of the spend more = more happiness mode of thinking, but when you do both your current and future happiness will increase dramatically. 

[Buffaloski Boris]

I think you should separate the two concepts. You’ll find that some people are more enthusiastic about FI. And others about RE. I’m one of those folks: to me, the quest for FI is plainly good sense and hard to argue with. It’s the precursor of RE. I don’t see the RE as universally desirable, indeed I’m not so sure I am going to retire my current job let alone stop work completely.   I think you’ll agree that it’s much better to be in the position of being FI and deciding you don’t really want to retire, than wanting to RE and not being financially capable of doing that.  FI gives you choices you wouldn’t other wise have. As for your two objections:

1. Not going to happen. FIRE is a somewhat fringey phenomenon that I doubt will ever go mainstream. Most people are perfectly happy in their wage slavery. They aren’t going to make the short term sacrifice for long term gain. While I believe FIRE will have some social/ economic impacts, I think it’ll be more at the margins when/if the top of the creative class embraces it.

2. You’re missing the point. Frugality and discipline are their own rewards.

[Villanelle]

If everyone became a farmer, infastructure would crumble, people would starve (who's transporting that food to other locations), we have no communication network, and we'd all be naked, cold, and in the dark. 

Does that mean no one should become a farmer?  Or that farming is a bad choice or unethical?  Nope. 

And no, the premise isn't to sacrifice now to benefit later.  It's to be thoughtful about your spending and to realize that spending now not only hurts you later, but in many cases it isn't making you happier today, either. 

[QueyWet]

Thank you everybody for replying.
I am a bot overwhelmed lol.
Wasn't expecting so many replies so I am reading all of them.

But from the replies I have read thus far it seems I missed the part of FIRE that is about being content and not spending on expensive things EVEN if you do have the money.

[Bloop Bloop]

I understand why some people would think point 2 is a valid criticism of FIRE. Unfortunately, there are a lot of FIRE blogs/proponents that rely on stringent frugality, either due to a worldview that's against consumerism, or out of necessity (to pump up your savings rate).

I actually think FIRE has nothing to do with frugality in the usual personal finance sense. It's not about pinching pennies, cutting coupons, or voluntary deprivation (unless you want it to be). It's about being conscious of what you spend money on; spending only on those things you truly value; avoiding group-think and lemming-style consumer behaviour; and taking control of your investments and tax mitigation strategy. All these things will save you money, but they're not about deprivation.

I believe FIRE is fully compatible with a life rich in material comfort - if you want that. Please don't think that FIRE and asceticism go hand-in-hand. They are compatible but they are not the same.

[Metalcat]

Thank you everybody for replying.
I am a bot overwhelmed lol.
Wasn't expecting so many replies so I am reading all of them.

But from the replies I have read thus far it seems I missed the part of FIRE that is about being content and not spending on expensive things EVEN if you do have the money.

Have you read *any* of MMM's blog posts???

[Buffaloski Boris]

Thank you everybody for replying.
I am a bot overwhelmed lol.
Wasn't expecting so many replies so I am reading all of them.

But from the replies I have read thus far it seems I missed the part of FIRE that is about being content and not spending on expensive things EVEN if you do have the money.

Have you read *any* of MMM's blog posts???

I’m here for the forum, but have read many MMM articles.  I’m more influenced by other FI writers in truth.

I know. Heresy! 😆

[Metalcat]

Thank you everybody for replying.
I am a bot overwhelmed lol.
Wasn't expecting so many replies so I am reading all of them.

But from the replies I have read thus far it seems I missed the part of FIRE that is about being content and not spending on expensive things EVEN if you do have the money.

Have you read *any* of MMM's blog posts???

I’m here for the forum, but have read many MMM articles.  I’m more influenced by other FI writers in truth.

I know. Heresy! 😆

Not heresy, just that MMM covers exactly the issues you listed in your initial post.

[ixtap]

I don't see sacrificing now for a good future. I see finding a good level now that I can maintain through the future.