Author Topic: How to handle parents who believe fake news?  (Read 64549 times)

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2020, 07:20:59 AM »
How do you know they are wrong and you are right?  Maybe you are both wrong.

It took awhile, but someone finally asked the correct question. Well done, @Catica

It's all about perspective.  I see a whole lot of folks here clucking their tongues about about their parents and loved ones believing "fake" news and how it's so difficult to get through to them.  So why not flip the equation?  Are we all so certain of our perspective? So why not put ourselves in the shoes of the parent?  Here we have children that we raised from birth who are obviously brainwashed into believing a lot of mainstream media lies and propaganda and they seemingly have no concern about it!

I'll tell you one thing that I learned* from my years of involvement in politics (both major US factions and one minor, thank you very much) is that there is little in the way of undisputed facts and even less objective truth. It's all about power and control. Each group has it's own, but remarkably similar agenda.  Most of them are trying to gaslight everyone else, cheating, lying through their teeth, and generally acting like bunch of amoral jackasses.  All while trying to cloak themselves in their twisted version of Morality.

So how about a strategy that I use when wanting to talk to The Converted of various stripes?  You stow your emotions in a box.  And you listen politely.  And while you listen you try to puzzle out what the underlying fear is.  Because it usually boils down to some sort of fear which is being manipulated. And loneliness. You're not going to be able to change people's strongly held views. But you might have some context to talk about the underlying fears.  And most importantly it'll make you feel better, because you're doing something useful rather than bitching about it.

We owe a special duty to honor our parents. To hold them in respect; to esteem them. So what's so hard about listening to them, even if they hold views that we find odd or even repugnant? It's not like they're going to turn you into a toad or something.  And your ears aren't going spontaneously bleed.  Listening isn't agreement. 


* (A second thing I learned: you might be able to tease out some useful information by being closely tuned in to the differing political views, but in the end it's not worth the effort.)

Laserjet3051

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2020, 07:32:39 AM »
How do you know they are wrong and you are right?  Maybe you are both wrong.

It took awhile, but someone finally asked the correct question. Well done, @Catica

It's all about perspective.  I see a whole lot of folks here clucking their tongues about about their parents and loved ones believing "fake" news and how it's so difficult to get through to them.  So why not flip the equation?  Are we all so certain of our perspective? So why not put ourselves in the shoes of the parent?  Here we have children that we raised from birth who are obviously brainwashed into believing a lot of mainstream media lies and propaganda and they seemingly have no concern about it!

I'll tell you one thing that I learned* from my years of involvement in politics (both major US factions and one minor, thank you very much) is that there is little in the way of undisputed facts and even less objective truth. It's all about power and control. Each group has it's own, but remarkably similar agenda.  Most of them are trying to gaslight everyone else, cheating, lying through their teeth, and generally acting like bunch of amoral jackasses.  All while trying to cloak themselves in their twisted version of Morality.

So how about a strategy that I use when wanting to talk to The Converted of various stripes?  You stow your emotions in a box.  And you listen politely.  And while you listen you try to puzzle out what the underlying fear is.  Because it usually boils down to some sort of fear which is being manipulated. And loneliness. You're not going to be able to change people's strongly held views. But you might have some context to talk about the underlying fears.  And most importantly it'll make you feel better, because you're doing something useful rather than bitching about it.

We owe a special duty to honor our parents. To hold them in respect; to esteem them. So what's so hard about listening to them, even if they hold views that we find odd or even repugnant? It's not like they're going to turn you into a toad or something.  And your ears aren't going spontaneously bleed.  Listening isn't agreement. 


* (A second thing I learned: you might be able to tease out some useful information by being closely tuned in to the differing political views, but in the end it's not worth the effort.)

+100
Thank you for posting this, it was overdue.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2020, 07:33:48 AM »

We live in strange times indeed.  I generally try to avoid political discussions with certain family and friends.  Between social media, the internet in general and non-stop media impersonating the news, it's where we are these days.  It's hard not to be cynical these days. 

Lately, I have been simply trying to keep my daily interactions with others respectful and positive and try not to let the "noise" affect my well being.

A wise perspective.  There is nothing to be won by getting into unnecessary arguments with people who love you. I'm fine with family and friends bringing up politics, but I also have the unfair advantage of hard apoliticism and they all know it.  So in the end it isn't going to affect me or my relationship with them.  But simply avoiding politics works very well too.     

Adventine

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2020, 07:46:18 AM »
It actually worked exceptionally well for me to come out directly and say to someone, "My relationship with you is more important than my belief about X. Our relationship has lasted so many years that it would be a shame to let X ruin that."

X was something they were committed to doing, even though I vehemently disagreed and tried to convince them otherwise.

My honesty was enough to break through to the other person. The relationship was saved. And they eventually stopped doing X out of their own free will after a few years.

ctuser1

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2020, 08:17:56 AM »
Specifically in the case of parents - is one of them the dominant personality? If so, work with that person, alone.

In my case, my mom is the dominant personality. My dad is prone to conspiracy theories. I just talk to my mom and she generally manages to set dad straight. I'm not sure he is convinced otherwise, but he does not get the support network necessary for these to become full blown paranoia.

I may be lucky in this specific case and YMMV. My mom is the dominant personality and she implicitly trusts me. My MIL is also prone to conspiracy theories and I have concluded that I have zero ability to help her. I don't use facebook (thankfully). She often posts super-crazy stuff on facebook and I hear DW on the phone with her having a fight, where MIL promises to shape up and goes back to doing the same thing again in a week.


Sibley

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2020, 08:57:00 AM »
I have a few conspiracy theorists in my family.

Thankfully, they believe in covid and despise Trump, so I don't have to put up with any of this particular brand of conspiracy nonsense right now, which is great.

However, I have a few decades under my belt of navigating conspiracies and handling them with patients, so I'll share my strategies.

First Step: Validate Validate Validate
-This is the first step for all conflict management, make sure their feelings and concerns are validated. Before rejecting their position, take a keen interest in understanding the feelings that are motivating them to seek out this type of information. Validate those feelings.
Ex:
You: "mom, it sounds like you're really afraid of what's going on with the government right now, I want to know what you're feeling most afraid of"
Mom: *says something that makes it clear that she doesn't trust her own democratically elected government*
You: "I totally understand. Politics have gotten so crazy these days, I've had a lot of similar feelings at times. It's really stressful"

Second Step: Explore the things they are probably right about
-There *is* an enormous amount of bias in a lot of media these days, you can cite facts that news outlets used to be more objective, non partisan, you can bond over the fact that watching the 6 o'clock News wasn't a bold political statement back in the day. It *is* hard to just trust the news anymore and that's legitimately stressful.

At this stage it would be really useful to have some solid examples of so-called leftist media bias that bother you. Ex: Obama is a media darling, but no one ever seems to talk about his role in fracking, or something like that.

For me, I really bonded over disliking CNN. I was watching American news early in Trump's presidency, and the coverage on CNN constantly made it sound as if he was moments away from being charged with something, and this was way before that was even close to being a possibility. I so wanted to understand what was going on, but it was so sensationalized it was impossible to parse anything meaningful.

Step Three: Push That Further
-As you build trust, as they feel you understand them and respect their distrust of media and even share it to a degree, you can extend the logic to include their own media.
Show how no media is immune to corruption, look at how they used to trust Fox News implicitly. Open them up to the concept that all news sources are fallible.

Step Four: Start working together to establish what types of sources of information might be valid
-Work collaboratively to determine what fact checking they would be comfortable with, maybe you can become a trusted fact checker?

At the end of the day, these people are scared and looking for reassurance. By rejecting their concerns and supporting the very media they fear, you just add yourself to the things they'll worry about.

They are desperately seeking sources of information they can unquestioningly trust, which is ironic considering the genesis of the problem is not trusting information. But the paradoxical thinking is also your access point for redirecting what they have faith in.

I myself am a former scientist and a medical professional, and my family has been heavily involved in politics my entire life. Because of my extensive experience in the above industries, I don't trust any of them.

I actually genuinely understand where the mistrust comes from in these people, so I don't attack their mistrust, I instead challenge their irrational faith in whatever nonsense media they're consuming. I utilize their own drive to mistrust in order to devalue their news sources instead of trying to promote the value of mine. It's then no longer partisan.

It's extremely uncomfortable to not trust any major sources of information, but that's where I bring them to with baby steps. Either they will eventually find comfort in evaluating each piece of information on their own, or they will be so desperate for a new arbiter of truth that I can slot myself into that position for them, which makes my life easier.

You cants "fact check" anyone unless they believe you to be someone who has access to facts.

Malcat, this is the single most helpful thing on this topic that I have ever read, anywhere. Thank you. You correctly diagnosed the problem (which others have done), but you also laid out step by step how to combat it.

NaN

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2020, 09:01:33 AM »
Are we all so certain of our perspective? So why not put ourselves in the shoes of the parent?  Here we have children that we raised from birth who are obviously brainwashed into believing a lot of mainstream media lies and propaganda and they seemingly have no concern about it!

What about children forced to grow up under parents involved in unsavory religious institutions that brainwashed them at a young age? I am not talking about a cult on farm, but large scale religious institutions.

We owe a special duty to honor our parents. To hold them in respect; to esteem them.

This is the kind of guilt I find common in religious settings. It is a way to exert control, drive compliance, and keep the survival of beliefs. It took me a long time to break free of the guilt associated with my parent's religion. I don't esteem my parents for raising us in that environment.

Tying back to the original OP question, "how to handle parents who believe in fake news?", I find the best way to handle it is make it clear to them what I believe and move on. It has taken me years to break free of some of the religious garbage and be confident in my own views. For one issue I have made it clear to them I disagree. If they don't like it, tough shit. However, I have said exactly this before the recent election:

"My relationship with you is more important than my belief about X. Our relationship has lasted so many years that it would be a shame to let X ruin that."

I think every relationship is different, so your mileage may vary. I don't think I can even have the "First Step" conversation @Malcat is suggesting.

Luck12

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #107 on: December 06, 2020, 09:13:49 AM »

We owe a special duty to honor our parents. To hold them in respect; to esteem them. So what's so hard about listening to them, even if they hold views that we find odd or even repugnant? It's not like they're going to turn you into a toad or something.  And your ears aren't going spontaneously bleed.  Listening isn't agreement.


Nah man that is some authoritarian bullshit.   Parents aren't special, big deal they had sex decades ago and you were born.   I respect my parents not b/c they're my parents but because they're worthy of my respect as people.   Not everyone is worthy of you listening to them either.

Your kind of thinking is no different from "we have a special duty to respect the President, to esteem them".  Fuck that, nobody has to respect anyone who's a monstrous sociopath.   Way too many people think like you, no wonder fascism has always existed. 

The rest of your post is nothing but "but both sides" bullshit.   
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 09:25:41 AM by Luck12 »

wenchsenior

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2020, 09:22:28 AM »

We owe a special duty to honor our parents. To hold them in respect; to esteem them. So what's so hard about listening to them, even if they hold views that we find odd or even repugnant? It's not like they're going to turn you into a toad or something.  And your ears aren't going spontaneously bleed.  Listening isn't agreement.


Nah man that is some authoritarian bullshit.  Parents aren't special, big deal they had sex decades ago and you were born.   I respect my parents not b/c they're my parents but because they're worthy of my respect as people.   Not everyone is worthy of you listening to them either.

The rest of your post is nothing but "but both sides" bullshit.   

100% agree.  I both like and love my parents...no particular bones to pick with them. But they are just people.

Green_Tea

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2020, 09:26:29 AM »
Since your parents are irrational according to your beliefs and facts, do you want to lock them up in a mental institution?  Do you want to medicate them or euthanize them or goose-step them to a crematorium? Clearly you call your parents "these people", that's not different than Cheka apparatchiks or any sturmfuhrer was eager to do with anybody who interpreted the facts differently than them. I'm sure you would make a good securocrat. You would be a good candidate to run a Stazi reprogramming.

The euthanization, Soviet, Nazi and Stasi stuff is very offensive and disturbing. These comparisons are WAY out of line. What was stated in the post this poster was responding to was clearly SO different than the thinking and doing of all these organizations, and the comparison is offending to the writer as well as trivializing these organizations so I reported the post.
If someone thinks these comparisons are ok, please read up on history.

I know some time passed since the post, but I think this should be pointed out.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 10:15:56 AM by Green_Tea »

achvfi

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #110 on: December 06, 2020, 09:57:51 AM »

We live in strange times indeed.  I generally try to avoid political discussions with certain family and friends.  Between social media, the internet in general and non-stop media impersonating the news, it's where we are these days.  It's hard not to be cynical these days. 

Lately, I have been simply trying to keep my daily interactions with others respectful and positive and try not to let the "noise" affect my well being.

A wise perspective.  There is nothing to be won by getting into unnecessary arguments with people who love you. I'm fine with family and friends bringing up politics, but I also have the unfair advantage of hard apoliticism and they all know it.  So in the end it isn't going to affect me or my relationship with them.  But simply avoiding politics works very well too.   

This is the thinking why people stay in their information bubble when no one around them says differently. They get entrenched in their beliefs because everyone around them is either agreeing with them or staying silent or pivoting to agreeable common beliefs like blame it on media.

You dont have to argue with them but I believe its our responsibility not to stay silent.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 10:03:51 AM by achvfi »

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2020, 11:06:57 AM »

We owe a special duty to honor our parents. To hold them in respect; to esteem them. So what's so hard about listening to them, even if they hold views that we find odd or even repugnant? It's not like they're going to turn you into a toad or something.  And your ears aren't going spontaneously bleed.  Listening isn't agreement.


Nah man that is some authoritarian bullshit.   Parents aren't special, big deal they had sex decades ago and you were born.   I respect my parents not b/c they're my parents but because they're worthy of my respect as people.   Not everyone is worthy of you listening to them either.

Your kind of thinking is no different from "we have a special duty to respect the President, to esteem them".  Fuck that, nobody has to respect anyone who's a monstrous sociopath.   Way too many people think like you, no wonder fascism has always existed. 

The rest of your post is nothing but "but both sides" bullshit.   

Nice. But sure, Let’s discuss. There is a big difference between accepting obvious evil and the latest extreme hyperbole of some political twit being “worse than Hitler” which seems to be all the rage here. Sorry, I don’t buy the hyperbole, nor do I buy that there is some inherent danger to listening to even extreme points of view. But in fairness there is a point of view, that’s widely shared, that ideas in and of themselves are dangerous and such be suppressed. I disagree with it. Different strokes.

I’ve also made my peace with there being a lot of self-entitled, spoiled people out there who viscerally hate traditional norms or people who disagree with them. It did bother me at one time, but now I just view it as an opportunity.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2020, 11:33:19 AM »

We live in strange times indeed.  I generally try to avoid political discussions with certain family and friends.  Between social media, the internet in general and non-stop media impersonating the news, it's where we are these days.  It's hard not to be cynical these days. 

Lately, I have been simply trying to keep my daily interactions with others respectful and positive and try not to let the "noise" affect my well being.

A wise perspective.  There is nothing to be won by getting into unnecessary arguments with people who love you. I'm fine with family and friends bringing up politics, but I also have the unfair advantage of hard apoliticism and they all know it.  So in the end it isn't going to affect me or my relationship with them.  But simply avoiding politics works very well too.   

This is the thinking why people stay in their information bubble when no one around them says differently. They get entrenched in their beliefs because everyone around them is either agreeing with them or staying silent or pivoting to agreeable common beliefs like blame it on media.

You dont have to argue with them but I believe its our responsibility not to stay silent.

Yeah, the "silence is death" canard.  I'm not interested in evangelizing. And it certainly isn't my job to swing people to one political point of view or the other, especially since I think they're all more or less worthless. And let's ask: how has all that non-silence worked out since it's so popular of late? Are people happier?  Better adjusted? Less inclined to isolate in their own little bubbles?     

It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are.  Again, discussion is not agreement.  And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting. There is usually some small underlying truth to even the most extreme and repugnant views. 

Poundwise

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #113 on: December 06, 2020, 12:20:22 PM »
It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are.  Again, discussion is not agreement.  And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting.

If your goal is to be entertained by other people, sure.  If your goal is to help the people you love, and to help humanity, the POV you support is not useful.

obstinate

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2020, 12:40:36 PM »
Don't. If it were possible to convince them that incorrect news is incorrect, they wouldn't have embraced it so willingly in the first place. Enjoy your parents for who they are and don't speak to them about politics. It won't do any good 99.9% of the time.

achvfi

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2020, 02:14:26 PM »
Don't. If it were possible to convince them that incorrect news is incorrect, they wouldn't have embraced it so willingly in the first place. Enjoy your parents for who they are and don't speak to them about politics. It won't do any good 99.9% of the time.

Yeah, the "silence is death" canard.  I'm not interested in evangelizing. And it certainly isn't my job to swing people to one political point of view or the other, especially since I think they're all more or less worthless. And let's ask: how has all that non-silence worked out since it's so popular of late? Are people happier?  Better adjusted? Less inclined to isolate in their own little bubbles?     

It's a lot more interesting, and frankly satisfying, to accept people as they are.  Again, discussion is not agreement.  And admittedly I do find teasing out why people think the way they do to be fairly interesting. There is usually some small underlying truth to even the most extreme and repugnant views.

Its not about evangelizing or convincing others of your view point is right, politics, news, whatever.

Its about being there for your friends and loved ones, when they need a rational and intelligent people around them to bounce off ideas. Someone they they love and respect.

Its about people getting sucked into extremely convincing narratives and going down negative spirals.

People are looking for good examples and examples matter. When you stay silent you are contributing to negative spiral.

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #116 on: December 06, 2020, 03:33:44 PM »
The people giving "both sides" advice here seem to be forgetting the very specific examples OP cited. They are not arguing about whether vanilla or chocolate are the best flavors of ice cream. They have instead abandoned reality altogether.

Quote
Examples of current belief:
1.) Fox news is democrat controlled so it can't be trusted any more - the only "real" place to get information is this Chinese guy on youtube. - They were all about fox untill about 4 weeks ago ish.
2.) There was a secret military operation in Germany recently that recovered voting servers showing trump actually won by a huge amount.
3.) Because of 1 and 2 they also believe in the stolen election non sense and that military action needs to be taken against the states to forcefully keep Trump in.

What Boris and Catica are essentially saying is that OP should listen politely to an anonymous Chinese guy on YouTube, and thoughtfully consider the idea that a secret military operation took place to rig the US election.

Yeah, that's going to be a hard no for me. I'll listen to my parents when they have a different opinion, but not when they are spouting nonsense that is, quite literally, made up without any reliable evidence whatsoever.

Cranky

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #117 on: December 06, 2020, 04:05:59 PM »
The internet makes everything look equally valid, and that’s a serious problem.

ender

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #118 on: December 06, 2020, 04:32:11 PM »
The internet makes everything look equally valid, and that’s a serious problem.

Everyone's an expert on the internet too!

BNgarden

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #119 on: December 06, 2020, 06:08:54 PM »
Anyway here is my conspiracy theory:
 Were in a war with our foreign enemies trying to destroy us from within, and the majority of the population isn't aware. From what I see - Our enemies are still advancing every day. Hopefully something is done before they win...

This article notes how 'normal' it can be for humans to believe conspiracies exist:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/opinion/sunday/trump-election-fraud.html

And at the end, the author's suggestions (copied here because the article may be paywalled):
My own attempts at argument have run as follows: To the conspiracy-curious Republican whose curiosity is validated by Trump’s allegations of fraud, I’ve suggested that the place to look for fire amid the smoke is in claims that the president’s lawyers are actually willing to advance in court, as opposed to in news conferences, semiofficial hearings and on Twitter. Those lawyers — especially now that it’s mostly just the Rudy Giuliani show — have every incentive to blow a fraud case wide open. If their legal claims don’t actually allege fraud or they fall apart under scrutiny, then so should your assumption that the president’s blustering must have some real-world correlative.

To the outsider-intellectuals fascinated by anomalies in ballot counts or ballot return patterns, I’ve argued that anomalies indicating fraud would have to show up in the final vote totals — meaning some pattern of results in key swing-state cities that differ starkly from the results in cities in less-contested states, or some turnout pattern in a swing state’s suburbs that looks weird relative to the suburbs in a deep- blue or deep-red state. But where claims for those kinds of anomalies have been offered, they’ve turned out to be false. So until a compelling example can be cited, anomalies in the counting process should be presumed to be error or randomness, not fraud.

Finally to the radicalized, I’ve tried to convey, based on my own knowledge of how liberal institutions work, that what looked stage-managed to outsiders in the May and June disturbances actually reflected organic upheaval and division, sincere antiracism and disorganized Trump-phobia, a crisis in the mind of liberalism, a dose of religious revival, plus a chaotic revolt by city-dwellers against a lockdown experience that fell heavily on them. Hypocrisy and radicalism alike there was in plenty, but literally nobody was in charge, except sometimes for activists in the younger generation who sensed a professional opportunity, and any supposed “plan” or “reset” was just a hapless attempt by elder statesmen to get woke. Put more succinctly: The liberal establishment that I watched stagger through May and June could not plan a sweeping voter-fraud conspiracy to save its life.

Have I persuaded anyone with these arguments? Maybe not, and as a columnist for a noted establishment organ, I’m probably not the best person to make them anyway. That distinction belongs to people more enmeshed in the conservative universe, scribes for National Review and talk-radio hosts and conservative media critics, all of whom are the more important arguers for an intra-Republican debate.

But I am certain that these issues are connected to a larger and more important question for the future of the right. At the moment, the voter-fraud narrative is being deployed, often by people more cynical than the groups I’ve just described, to help an outgoing president — one who twice lost the popular vote and displayed gross incompetence in the face of his administration’s greatest challenge — stake a permanent claim to the leadership of his party and establish himself as the presumptive Republican nominee in 2024. And it’s being used to push aside the more compelling narrative that the Republican Party could take away from 2020, which is that Trump’s presidency demonstrated that populism can provide a foundation for conservatism, but to build on it the right needs a very different leader than the man Joe Biden just defeated.

That’s the most important argument for the next four years — and one I’ll be making firmly, passionately, right up until the Republican Party nominates Trump again in 2024.

SwordGuy

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #120 on: December 06, 2020, 07:20:16 PM »
And let's ask: how has all that non-silence worked out since it's so popular of late? Are people happier?  Better adjusted? Less inclined to isolate in their own little bubbles?     

It worked great until Trump made racist bigots feel safe about openly being racist bigots.

Until then, for the last 30 years or so, they kept their mouths shut because they knew the hate filled bile they felt inside was socially unacceptable and might get them fired or ostracized.

Loved it.  The world was a nicer place when bigots were afraid to openly be bigots.

Cassie

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #121 on: December 06, 2020, 08:22:08 PM »
As a baby boomer I don’t know anyone that believes the conspiracy theories and that isn’t willing to take the vaccine. We live on the west coast so that may be the difference.  I feel for you guys that are dealing with this. I would have never jeopardized my relationship with my parents to be right.  They were very important to me. So I would avoid the topic.

KarefulKactus15

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #122 on: December 06, 2020, 09:55:02 PM »
As a baby boomer I don’t know anyone that believes the conspiracy theories and that isn’t willing to take the vaccine. We live on the west coast so that may be the difference.  I feel for you guys that are dealing with this. I would have never jeopardized my relationship with my parents to be right.  They were very important to me. So I would avoid the topic.

I imagine your perspective from the west coast is different from my perspective in a southern red state in the Bible belt indeed.

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #123 on: December 06, 2020, 10:06:14 PM »
I grew up in Wisconsin and spent half my life there. Although my friends there don’t believe the conspiracy theories either the state is a mess and hot spot because so many do. It used to be more progressive than it is now. I can’t imagine living in the south now.

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #124 on: December 06, 2020, 10:16:03 PM »
As someone who called out all the religious "fake news" my family and culture were trying to indoctrinate me with when I was 10, I am only surprised that so many people are only concerned about people believing in things without evidence now. People are barely aware of their own consciousness, let alone all the ways in which we can so easily fool ourselves, or WANT to believe certain things.  Americans are consumers foremost, and this includes consuming ideas and groupthink, call them out on it, kindly. 
I have recently lost family members to Covid, so please try to make any "hoax" people aware of their shared responsibility in the ongoing loss of life, do not "tolerate" it. This is equal to many Germans going along with all the beliefs about Jews being responsible for imagined crimes, and will be viewed as harshly with hindsight. Call them out.

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #125 on: December 06, 2020, 11:03:35 PM »
As someone who called out all the religious "fake news" my family and culture were trying to indoctrinate me with when I was 10, I am only surprised that so many people are only concerned about people believing in things without evidence now. People are barely aware of their own consciousness, let alone all the ways in which we can so easily fool ourselves, or WANT to believe certain things.  Americans are consumers foremost, and this includes consuming ideas and groupthink, call them out on it, kindly. 
I have recently lost family members to Covid, so please try to make any "hoax" people aware of their shared responsibility in the ongoing loss of life, do not "tolerate" it. This is equal to many Germans going along with all the beliefs about Jews being responsible for imagined crimes, and will be viewed as harshly with hindsight. Call them out.

This.

My own parents started becoming toxic racists as they got older.   That's not just my wife and I thinking that, my mom's sister thought so too.

When people can safely express bigoted hate and bile, they will express it more often. 

When people can safely take hateful bigoted actions, they will take them more often.

A few people are incorrigably evil.   A few people are determined to be good.   The bulk are in the middle and a huge chunk of that middle group will "go along to get along".   If being nice to minorities is what others expect, the wishy-washy folks will go along.  If treating minorities like dirt is what their peer group expects, well, that's what they'll do, too.   

My goal is to never let people cross the line into active bigotry without them paying a social price for it.   That social price may include others turning away from them in disgust, it may mean folks calling them out for their vile statements or actions, or the law called on them if they've broken it -- or if life and limb of others are in immediate danger due to their actions, then using violence until they stop endangering others.   I want their actions to be in the public spotlight so they become extremely uncomfortable about actively being a bigot towards others.

There aren't gobs of people determined to commit evil bigoted actions no matter what.    But if the wishy-washy people feel it's safer to support the bigots rather than nice people, then evil starts to rule all of us.

The bigots have been emboldened for the last 4 1/2 years.   It's past time to make them pay again.


Segare

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #126 on: December 07, 2020, 05:23:23 AM »

It took awhile, but someone finally asked the correct question. Well done, @Catica
Here we have children that we raised from birth who are obviously brainwashed into believing a lot of mainstream media lies and propaganda and they seemingly have no concern about it!

I'll tell you one thing that I learned* from my years of involvement in politics (both major US factions and one minor, thank you very much) is that there is little in the way of undisputed facts and even less objective truth. It's all about power and control. Each group has it's own, but remarkably similar agenda.

Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids.  One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #127 on: December 07, 2020, 05:38:18 AM »
And let's ask: how has all that non-silence worked out since it's so popular of late? Are people happier?  Better adjusted? Less inclined to isolate in their own little bubbles?     

It worked great until Trump made racist bigots feel safe about openly being racist bigots.

Until then, for the last 30 years or so, they kept their mouths shut because they knew the hate filled bile they felt inside was socially unacceptable and might get them fired or ostracized.

Loved it.  The world was a nicer place when bigots were afraid to openly be bigots.

You sure about that?

I witnessed A LOT of open and frank bigotry and racial violence over the past 30+ years, and it was pretty bad 30 years ago.

ctuser1

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #128 on: December 07, 2020, 05:43:35 AM »

It took awhile, but someone finally asked the correct question. Well done, @Catica
Here we have children that we raised from birth who are obviously brainwashed into believing a lot of mainstream media lies and propaganda and they seemingly have no concern about it!

I'll tell you one thing that I learned* from my years of involvement in politics (both major US factions and one minor, thank you very much) is that there is little in the way of undisputed facts and even less objective truth. It's all about power and control. Each group has it's own, but remarkably similar agenda.

Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids.  One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.

It is trivially easy to figure out if it is a case of someone expanding his horizons or becoming bigoted.

Case 1: Expanding horizons
The person in question will become more and more uncertain what the truth is. He will become aware of multiple points of view, and will be dead against the absolutist actions that the far right propose.

Case 2: Paranoid Delusions -> bigotry
The person will be dead certain that there is a "war on Christianity", or that many people "hate his traditional views", or that the coastal elites "eat babies", or that stasi/KGB/Socialists/Communists are hiding under his bed, etc. etc. etc.

To me, as ridiculous as such paranoid delusions are, they aren't generally indicative of mental breakdown - the absolute actionable certainty about them is! And this can come from people who are outwardly very functional (like we are seeing instances in this thread itself).

KarefulKactus15

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #129 on: December 07, 2020, 07:23:15 AM »

It took awhile, but someone finally asked the correct question. Well done, @Catica
Here we have children that we raised from birth who are obviously brainwashed into believing a lot of mainstream media lies and propaganda and they seemingly have no concern about it!

I'll tell you one thing that I learned* from my years of involvement in politics (both major US factions and one minor, thank you very much) is that there is little in the way of undisputed facts and even less objective truth. It's all about power and control. Each group has it's own, but remarkably similar agenda.

Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids.  One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.

It is trivially easy to figure out if it is a case of someone expanding his horizons or becoming bigoted.

Case 1: Expanding horizons
The person in question will become more and more uncertain what the truth is. He will become aware of multiple points of view, and will be dead against the absolutist actions that the far right propose.

Case 2: Paranoid Delusions -> bigotry
The person will be dead certain that there is a "war on Christianity", or that many people "hate his traditional views", or that the coastal elites "eat babies", or that stasi/KGB/Socialists/Communists are hiding under his bed, etc. etc. etc.

To me, as ridiculous as such paranoid delusions are, they aren't generally indicative of mental breakdown - the absolute actionable certainty about them is! And this can come from people who are outwardly very functional (like we are seeing instances in this thread itself).

"Actionable certainty" - Thats the words I needed.  That is what worries me. The virus example below is one, but there are many more where action is being taken already. Like your (fake) beliefs are fine, untill you start acting on them.

Virus is a hoax? Don't wear your mask, continue about your life like nothing is up.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 07:28:47 AM by Kroaler »

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #130 on: December 07, 2020, 08:14:34 AM »
And let's ask: how has all that non-silence worked out since it's so popular of late? Are people happier?  Better adjusted? Less inclined to isolate in their own little bubbles?     

It worked great until Trump made racist bigots feel safe about openly being racist bigots.

Until then, for the last 30 years or so, they kept their mouths shut because they knew the hate filled bile they felt inside was socially unacceptable and might get them fired or ostracized.

Loved it.  The world was a nicer place when bigots were afraid to openly be bigots.

You sure about that?

I witnessed A LOT of open and frank bigotry and racial violence over the past 30+ years, and it was pretty bad 30 years ago.

Yes, I am sure.   

I, too have seen lots of bigotry over the years.  Many of the white people in those hate-filled bigoted mobs in civil rights photos were still alive and so are the children they raised.

But where I used to see them test the waters in a conversation with a couple of people, to see whether it was safe to come out and say whatever bigoted bile was festering in their soul, now they just come out and say it.   And march in numbers to do it.

teacherwithamustache

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #131 on: December 07, 2020, 08:19:57 AM »
I too have parents who believe in BS fake News stories.  I personally hate both sides and consider myself an Independent/Libretarian.

All of this had me thinking: Is coming out like this what it was like when our parents told their friends that their children were gay or dating someone of another race?

Example:
1970: Mom and Dad sitting around the dinner table with friends.  Mom " Yes it is true our Daughter is a Lesbian but we love her anyways.  We are praying it is just a phase she is going thru?"

2020: Son and Wife sitting around the dinner table with friends.  Son " Yes it is true my Mom and Dad believe that the Clintons were pedifiles and Trump really won the 2nd election except for all of that cheating"


Support whoever you want to support but realize there is so much dirt and filth on both sides.

Thank you MMM for providing a forum to seek help for this matter!

obstinate

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2020, 08:22:12 AM »
Its about being there for your friends and loved ones, when they need a rational and intelligent people around them to bounce off ideas. Someone they they love and respect.
If their beliefs were doing them harm in some way, sure. Or if they were materially harming someone else. While collectively I agree that these foolish beliefs are a problem, any individual holder of such incorrect beliefs is basically harmless on their own. Your parents would be no better off if you could convince them of how wrong they are, no one else would be either, and you can't anyway. That is the basis for my suggestion to avoid the subject.

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2020, 08:37:38 AM »
Neither of you should be watching any news at all if you value your happiness.

Luck12

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #134 on: December 07, 2020, 10:20:48 AM »

Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids.  One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.

That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news.  There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often.   Plus older people are more racist per many studies.    Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 10:24:50 AM by Luck12 »

ctuser1

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #135 on: December 07, 2020, 10:26:39 AM »
It is trivially easy to figure out if it is a case of someone expanding his horizons or becoming bigoted.

Case 1: Expanding horizons
The person in question will become more and more uncertain what the truth is. He will become aware of multiple points of view, and will be dead against the absolutist actions that the far right propose.

Case 2: Paranoid Delusions -> bigotry
The person will be dead certain that there is a "war on Christianity", or that many people "hate his traditional views", or that the coastal elites "eat babies", or that stasi/KGB/Socialists/Communists are hiding under his bed, etc. etc. etc.

To me, as ridiculous as such paranoid delusions are, they aren't generally indicative of mental breakdown - the absolute actionable certainty about them is! And this can come from people who are outwardly very functional (like we are seeing instances in this thread itself).

"Actionable certainty" - Thats the words I needed.  That is what worries me. The virus example below is one, but there are many more where action is being taken already. Like your (fake) beliefs are fine, untill you start acting on them.

Virus is a hoax? Don't wear your mask, continue about your life like nothing is up.

I can't pretend that I can understand the magnitude of the problem you are encountering in deep south. I posted upthread about my dad who has shown a propensity of believing in conspiracy theories. Fortunately, he has a support network around him (my mom, both of my siblings live in the same city as him) that likely prevents him from going over the edge.

Do you happen to have the opportunity to chip away at one of your parents first, alone, when the other is not present? When both are reinforcing each-other's conspiracy theory beliefs, it is difficult for anyone to get through. In my case, my mom implicitly trusts me and hence I have often used her to reach dad. If you do get the opportunity, I'd try to understand the paranoid delusions that underlie their behavior, and try to chip away at that. They are afraid of communists? Perhaps have them come over to any big city and meet some people they think of as "communists".

It's just a random suggestion based on what I do or have done. I have no background in psychology/psychiatry, or any particular understanding of the southern culture.

Also, I am one of those that DO believe that I owe a special debt of gratitude to my parents, no matter what. My parents know this. This - in my experience - allows difficult conversations to happen much more easily than otherwise. I can't, for example, help my MIL (also prone to conspiracy theories) because I can't connect with her in the same way.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 10:34:37 AM by ctuser1 »

Segare

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #136 on: December 07, 2020, 10:38:03 AM »

Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids.  One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.

That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news.  There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often.   Plus older people are more racist per many studies.    Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
People call different news sources fake, who is right? 
As far as your Universal Health care statement, that is a sign that older people have a slight better understanding of Individual Rights and or realize things done by the government is usually worse than the free market. With years lived comes wisdom.

KarefulKactus15

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #137 on: December 07, 2020, 10:44:13 AM »

Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids.  One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.

That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news.  There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often.   Plus older people are more racist per many studies.    Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.

So this brings an interesting thought. Not my parents, but a friend of mines parents have  spent and continue to spend a large majority of their savings, maybe $10,000 or so (it wasnt very big to begin with.) on weapons and ammunition, to the point that they lack money for food occasionally. I'm not here to argue what will happen in the future, but this represents a breakdown in critical thinking to me. A need to eat is certain, a (insert disaster requiring self self defense) is a possibility.

This is an example of the "actionable certainty" that worries me. So my friend is in a tough spot. On one hand my friend now has to make sure the parents have food.... while simultaneously their parents want to convert him to their view.  - Luckily mine havent done anything like this - Yet.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 10:54:59 AM by Kroaler »

KarefulKactus15

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #138 on: December 07, 2020, 10:53:53 AM »
As a side note:

I'm really shocked by the amount of "two sides to everything" and "How do you know your source is right" advice being given on this thread.

Some information is false and verifiable as such . The earth isn't flat... etc etc. (or does someone on here question this as well?)


Luck12

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #139 on: December 07, 2020, 11:06:37 AM »
As a side note:

I'm really shocked by the amount of "two sides to everything" and "How do you know your source is right" advice being given on this thread.

Some information is false and verifiable as such . The earth isn't flat... etc etc. (or does someone on here question this as well?)

They're in the minority on this thread and in the real world (though still far too many out in the real world) but yeah it's absurd.   We're not talking about different economic or health care financing policies to help people for example where reasonable minds can disagree.    It's also really dangerous and lazy to just throw up your hands and say "who knows what's right and wrong", that just allows more of this batshit unproven crazy conspiracy shit that OP's parents believe to proliferate.   This kind of thing has happened all throughout history and the consequences are not good to put it mildly. 
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 11:12:56 AM by Luck12 »

GuitarStv

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #140 on: December 07, 2020, 11:09:21 AM »
People call different news sources fake, who is right?

No news organization is perfect.  Even the best and most reliable sources of news occasionally screw up.  But facts exist.  It's on you, as a consumer of news to research, validate, and verify the news that you get from a source . . . especially if it's something that seems unusual or surprising.  You might have to read through some scientific journals/articles, you might have to double and triple check sources, you might have to comb through some video of a recorded event to hear the real quote in context.  But (and not to get too x-filesy) the truth is out there.

former player

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #141 on: December 07, 2020, 11:34:54 AM »
People call different news sources fake, who is right?

No news organization is perfect.  Even the best and most reliable sources of news occasionally screw up.  But facts exist.  It's on you, as a consumer of news to research, validate, and verify the news that you get from a source . . . especially if it's something that seems unusual or surprising.  You might have to read through some scientific journals/articles, you might have to double and triple check sources, you might have to comb through some video of a recorded event to hear the real quote in context.  But (and not to get too x-filesy) the truth is out there.
In my working life I was on the inside of some big news stories.  The reputable news outlets (BBC, The Times, etc.) would not have all the details but they supplied a general gist of what was going on that was good enough for all ordinary purposes and would not have misled anyone as to what was happening.

HMman

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #142 on: December 07, 2020, 11:45:28 AM »
People call different news sources fake, who is right?

No news organization is perfect.  Even the best and most reliable sources of news occasionally screw up.  But facts exist.  It's on you, as a consumer of news to research, validate, and verify the news that you get from a source . . . especially if it's something that seems unusual or surprising.  You might have to read through some scientific journals/articles, you might have to double and triple check sources, you might have to comb through some video of a recorded event to hear the real quote in context.  But (and not to get too x-filesy) the truth is out there.

My Dad has fallen into the conspiracy theory bubble, which is the main reason I got into this thread. It's funny you bring up the X-Files, because I've been musing recently that the "trust no one" ethos of the show, which my Dad strongly identified with, foreshadowed his descent into conspiratorial thinking. If you're the sort of person that's anti-authority to begin with, hearing that certain power-holding segments of society can't be trusted is a message that resonates with you, regardless of whether it's an other powerful segment telling you that.

It's somewhat similar to how there's a correlation between how strongly someone has to tell you to think for yourself and how little they actually want you to.

mm1970

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #143 on: December 07, 2020, 12:07:52 PM »
As a side note:

I'm really shocked by the amount of "two sides to everything" and "How do you know your source is right" advice being given on this thread.

Some information is false and verifiable as such . The earth isn't flat... etc etc. (or does someone on here question this as well?)
My thoughts exactly.  "How do you know you are right?"

Well, my dh has a Qanon high school classmate who posts demonstrably false things on her facebook page, from fake news sites.  He just avoids fb in general but...

She posts: "PA only sent out 1.5 million ballots and got over 3 million back!  Obviously there was election fraud!"

Dude, PA sent out 1.5 million PRIMARY ballots.  For the ELECTION they sent out over 3 million and got a large percentage back.  This is verifiable and for god's sake, there are election officials whose literal job is to make sure an election is safe, fair, and secure.  They get paid to do that.

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #144 on: December 07, 2020, 12:19:10 PM »

Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids.  One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.

That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news.  There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often.   Plus older people are more racist per many studies.    Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
People call different news sources fake, who is right? 
As far as your Universal Health care statement, that is a sign that older people have a slight better understanding of Individual Rights and or realize things done by the government is usually worse than the free market. With years lived comes wisdom.

HAHAHAHAHA. My mother, who is in poor health, 64 nearly 65, on 15+ mediations daily, etc etc etc is convinced that Medicare for All would result in death panels or something. Oh, and as of 1/1/21 she'll have Medicare for her health insurance.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #145 on: December 07, 2020, 12:25:16 PM »

Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids.  One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.

That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news.  There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often.   Plus older people are more racist per many studies.    Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
People call different news sources fake, who is right? 
As far as your Universal Health care statement, that is a sign that older people have a slight better understanding of Individual Rights and or realize things done by the government is usually worse than the free market. With years lived comes wisdom.

HAHAHAHAHA. My mother, who is in poor health, 64 nearly 65, on 15+ mediations daily, etc etc etc is convinced that Medicare for All would result in death panels or something. Oh, and as of 1/1/21 she'll have Medicare for her health insurance.

Older people don't have to get more conservative.  I'm older than Sibley's parents and I am so glad Canada has universal health care (not free, I keep saying that since it is an idea that is out there).  Our per capita costs are about half that of the US, in line with most European countries, Australia and New Zealand, and we do not have death panels.

Fish Sweet

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #146 on: December 07, 2020, 01:12:45 PM »
I too have parents who believe in BS fake News stories.  I personally hate both sides and consider myself an Independent/Libretarian.

All of this had me thinking: Is coming out like this what it was like when our parents told their friends that their children were gay or dating someone of another race?

Example:
1970: Mom and Dad sitting around the dinner table with friends.  Mom " Yes it is true our Daughter is a Lesbian but we love her anyways.  We are praying it is just a phase she is going thru?"

2020: Son and Wife sitting around the dinner table with friends.  Son " Yes it is true my Mom and Dad believe that the Clintons were pedifiles and Trump really won the 2nd election except for all of that cheating"


Support whoever you want to support but realize there is so much dirt and filth on both sides.

Thank you MMM for providing a forum to seek help for this matter!
Excuse me, WHAT? 

Are you actually comparing being gay to believing that the Clintons were pedophiles?  Or that 'coming out' as an (often persecuted) minority is akin to believing in verifiable falsehoods and conspiracy theories? Are you actually describing 'both sides' of those as 'dirt and filth'?

Sandi_k

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #147 on: December 07, 2020, 01:42:30 PM »

If their beliefs were doing them harm in some way, sure. Or if they were materially harming someone else. While collectively I agree that these foolish beliefs are a problem, any individual holder of such incorrect beliefs is basically harmless on their own.

Mask wearing. We have family members who refuse to wear them. And yet we're cast as the "libtards" when asking them to do so if/when we congregate indoors for the holidays.

That belief is NOT "harmless on their own," as epidemiologists are clear that when you wear a mask, you are protecting others.

When *they* wear a mask, they are protecting you. When *they* refuse to do so, it is absolutely material, and harmful

obstinate

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #148 on: December 07, 2020, 02:02:03 PM »
If their beliefs were doing them harm in some way, sure. Or if they were materially harming someone else. While collectively I agree that these foolish beliefs are a problem, any individual holder of such incorrect beliefs is basically harmless on their own.
Mask wearing. We have family members who refuse to wear them. And yet we're cast as the "libtards" when asking them to do so if/when we congregate indoors for the holidays.

That belief is NOT "harmless on their own," as epidemiologists are clear that when you wear a mask, you are protecting others.

When *they* wear a mask, they are protecting you. When *they* refuse to do so, it is absolutely material, and harmful
I'm sorry to hear it. I grant that the coronavirus situation is one rare exception where individual foolish beliefs are capable of inflicting grave harm. That being said, it seems a belief like this is the exception, not the norm, and it seems like the blast radius is in many ways limited to those who have similar incorrect beliefs.

Arbitrage

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Re: How to handle parents who believe fake news?
« Reply #149 on: December 07, 2020, 02:43:12 PM »

Yep,,, one thing I learned in life so far is even though I thought I knew it all at 20, when I was 25 I realized I didn't, and at 30, etc, etc. Maybe not everything your parents believe is correct, but I am willing to bet they are more correct than their kids.  One exception, not everyone has updated their belief's as they go. Some people still believe stuff from their youth.

That might be true for some things but not when it comes to fake news.  There are studies indicating the elderly are much more susceptible to fake news and share it much more often.   Plus older people are more racist per many studies.    Not to mention if only people < 55 voted we'd be much likelier to have universal health care and other things.
People call different news sources fake, who is right? 
As far as your Universal Health care statement, that is a sign that older people have a slight better understanding of Individual Rights and or realize things done by the government is usually worse than the free market. With years lived comes wisdom.

HAHAHAHAHA. My mother, who is in poor health, 64 nearly 65, on 15+ mediations daily, etc etc etc is convinced that Medicare for All would result in death panels or something. Oh, and as of 1/1/21 she'll have Medicare for her health insurance.

Older people don't have to get more conservative.  I'm older than Sibley's parents and I am so glad Canada has universal health care (not free, I keep saying that since it is an idea that is out there).  Our per capita costs are about half that of the US, in line with most European countries, Australia and New Zealand, and we do not have death panels.

Old people also don't necessarily get more conservative...it can just be that they aren't changing their views, or perhaps are changing them more slowly than the general populace.  Much of what is conservative now used to be mainstream.  As an example, keep in mind that it wasn't that long ago that the Democratic party didn't support gay marriage.  In 2020, many act like anyone who ever had that view is a crazy, backwards, hateful person.  The reality is that it could be someone aligned with the views of the left-middle of this country just a decade or two ago, and hadn't changed their views since then.