Author Topic: How to Hack the New Tax Plan  (Read 25825 times)

GetSmart

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #100 on: December 22, 2017, 09:58:59 AM »
 
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No, as it is now, the $10k SALT deduction is itemized, so you have to pick between it and the standard deduction. With the standard deduction going up (some of which is just getting rid of the personal exemptions and making them part of the standard deduction), and itemized deductions going down it will make sense for more people to claim the standard deduction instead of itemizing.
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Right, thanks.  Been reading too much of this stuff and now confused myself!  However, since I use a home office deduction on an SK-1 it would not necessarily benefit me to prepay.  Also am not sure the county allows this unless they've changed their mind about it.

aspiringnomad

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #101 on: December 22, 2017, 11:34:16 AM »
I just prepaid my property taxes for 2018. Should save me about a grand on my taxes this year and have no impact next year thanks to the higher standard deduction (or the SALT cap if I’m somehow able to itemize more than 24k). Pretty sweet.

Does prepaying 2018 property taxes only make sense if they are above 10k ? The 10k SALT cap is on top of the standard 24k deduction correct?  or am I missing something here?

No, as it is now, the $10k SALT deduction is itemized, so you have to pick between it and the standard deduction. With the standard deduction going up (some of which is just getting rid of the personal exemptions and making them part of the standard deduction), and itemized deductions going down it will make sense for more people to claim the standard deduction instead of itemizing.

It makes sense to prepay for anyone who 1) Currently itemizes but will likely take the $24k standard deduction next year (This is me and probably a ton of people, not just in high-tax states. I think that's being underreported); and/or 2) Is over the $10k SALT cap which includes local income taxes not just property taxes (this is also me, thanks to relatively high income taxes in my jurisdiction).
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 11:35:49 AM by aspiringnomad »

PathtoFIRE

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #102 on: December 22, 2017, 12:24:30 PM »
It makes sense to prepay for anyone who 1) Currently itemizes but will likely take the $24k standard deduction next year (This is me and probably a ton of people, not just in high-tax states. I think that's being underreported); and/or 2) Is over the $10k SALT cap which includes local income taxes not just property taxes (this is also me, thanks to relatively high income taxes in my jurisdiction).
And 3) does not fall under the AMT for 2017 and therefore does not get the deduction (but will start getting [part of] it next year with the new AMT rules)

CanuckExpat

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #103 on: December 22, 2017, 01:59:45 PM »
Move to a state with no income tax.

Will be upon FIRE.  Florida or Tennessee.

I'm looking at Tennessee as well.  Note that they do collect income tax on capital gains in case a large taxable account is part of your plan.  There is a proposal out to drop that by 2022 though.

That proposal became law a couple of years ago. The rate is decreasing each year until the eventual complete phase-out starting in 2021.

Source: https://revenue.support.tn.gov/hc/en-us/articles/202989875-What-is-the-Hall-income-tax-rate-

One thing to keep in mind as things shake out: healthcare
Right now Florida has some very nice plans on the Federal ACA exchange, including with nationwide network. A nationwide network can be difficult to find in ACA exchange plans. The plans can be expensive, but are cheap to free if your retirement income qualifies you for ACA subsidies

I haven't checked TN personally, but I have heard that the TN marketplace is not as robust.

End off-topic diversion

aspiringnomad

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #104 on: December 22, 2017, 02:10:13 PM »
It makes sense to prepay for anyone who 1) Currently itemizes but will likely take the $24k standard deduction next year (This is me and probably a ton of people, not just in high-tax states. I think that's being underreported); and/or 2) Is over the $10k SALT cap which includes local income taxes not just property taxes (this is also me, thanks to relatively high income taxes in my jurisdiction).
And 3) does not fall under the AMT for 2017 and therefore does not get the deduction (but will start getting [part of] it next year with the new AMT rules)

Right. Thanks for adding that.

boarder42

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #105 on: December 22, 2017, 02:48:28 PM »
How are we hanging this new 529 plan thing. It says can be used for k-12 expenses. If my kid attends public school the supplies I buy are expenses school field trips etc. Are any of these capable of using 529 money.

bacchi

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #106 on: December 22, 2017, 03:01:02 PM »
Speaking of 529s...

SALT is federally limited now. If 529 contributions lower SALT (i.e., they lower state income tax due),

1) Make enough 529 contributions to lower state income taxes to <$10,000.
2) Let it grow tax-deferred.
3) Pull out as needed and pay the 10% penalty.

This has always been a strategy but it's more relevant now. It's also available to those without children.

TexasRunner

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #107 on: December 22, 2017, 03:11:11 PM »
How are we hanging this new 529 plan thing. It says can be used for k-12 expenses. If my kid attends public school the supplies I buy are expenses school field trips etc. Are any of these capable of using 529 money.

It would appear so.  As well as any 'education specific' trips your kids take.  Specific text below:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1/text
https://www.congress.gov/115/bills/hr1/BILLS-115hr1enr.pdf

Quote
‘‘(7) TREATMENT OF ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY TUITION.—Any
reference in this subsection to the term ‘qualified
higher education expense’ shall include a reference to expenses
for tuition in connection with enrollment or attendance at an
elementary or secondary public, private, or religious school.’’.
(2) LIMITATION.—Section 529(e)(3)(A) is amended by adding
at the end the following: ‘‘The amount of cash distributions
from all qualified tuition programs described in subsection
(b)(1)(A)(ii) with respect to a beneficiary during any taxable
year shall, in the aggregate, include not more than $10,000
in expenses described in subsection (c)(7) incurred during the
taxable year.’’.
(b) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendments made by this section
shall apply to distributions made after December 31, 2017.

I would certainly consider supplies "public school expenses" as well as trips to museums, astronomy labs, or other similar educational activities (that are inherently educational, I doubt you could take a trip to DC out of a 529 plan...)





MODIFY TO ADD:  I can't tell which way this reads.  Someone please clarify my bolded edits below if this is the right reading or not:

Quote
‘‘(7) TREATMENT OF ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY TUITION.—Any
reference in this subsection to the term ‘qualified
higher education expense’ shall include a reference to (1) expenses
for tuition in connection with enrollment or (2)attendance at an
elementary or secondary public, private, or religious school.’’.
(2) LIMITATION.—Section 529...
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 03:13:37 PM by TexasRunner »

brooklynguy

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #108 on: December 22, 2017, 03:22:59 PM »
Speaking of 529s...

SALT is federally limited now. If 529 contributions lower SALT (i.e., they lower state income tax due),

1) Make enough 529 contributions to lower state income taxes to <$10,000.
2) Let it grow tax-deferred.
3) Pull out as needed and pay the 10% penalty.

This has always been a strategy but it's more relevant now. It's also available to those without children.

New York has clawback provisions that subject nonqualified withdrawals to state tax recapture.  I believe most states that provide a state tax deduction have similar protections.

bacchi

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #109 on: December 22, 2017, 03:29:25 PM »
Speaking of 529s...

SALT is federally limited now. If 529 contributions lower SALT (i.e., they lower state income tax due),

1) Make enough 529 contributions to lower state income taxes to <$10,000.
2) Let it grow tax-deferred.
3) Pull out as needed and pay the 10% penalty.

This has always been a strategy but it's more relevant now. It's also available to those without children.

New York has clawback provisions that subject nonqualified withdrawals to state tax recapture.  I believe most states that provide a state tax deduction have similar protections.

Move to an income tax-free state and do a 529 rollover before starting withdrawals?


brooklynguy

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #110 on: December 22, 2017, 03:36:14 PM »
Move to an income tax-free state and do a 529 rollover before starting withdrawals?

Rollover to another state’s plan triggers recapture too (at least in NY).

sol

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #111 on: December 22, 2017, 04:01:30 PM »
1) Make enough 529 contributions to lower state income taxes to <$10,000.
2) Let it grow tax-deferred.
3) Pull out as needed and pay the 10% penalty.

So, not worth it if you pay less than 10% in state income taxes?

CanuckExpat

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #112 on: December 22, 2017, 05:30:56 PM »
To the extent the child tax credit exceeds the taxpayer's federal tax liability, the taxpayer is eligible for a refundable credit (up to the amount of such excess, but not to exceed $1,400) only to the extent the taxpayer's earned income exceeds $2,500, in which case the refundable credit will only be equal to 15% of the amount of earned income in excess of $2,500.
So for a family with one child, the marginal tax rate from $2,500 to $11,833 of earned income is negative 15% ($2,500 to $21,166 for married couple with two children). Beyond that the marginal tax rate is 0% until the remaining $600 credit is used.

There might be some considerations here for retired (low income) mustachians with children under 17 and small to moderate amounts of side hustle income that would count as earned income. For example, I believe regular workplace 401k contributions would reduce your amount of earned income, whereas IRA contributions would not. If the employee side of solo 401k contributions similarly reduced earned income, you may not want to shelter small amounts of income that way. Is there a similar thought for not wanting to make the employer side 20% SEP, 401k, etc contributions and simply pass them through as income in order to benefit from the credit?

My quick calculations say that in 2017 while retired we made roughly $7,000 of earned income. Assuming no tax liability, and doing nothing to shelter that income means roughly a $675 cash payment back per eligible child.

While this and ACA exists (with very generous subsidies at low income and steep cliffs) , I'm tempted to think that a retiree who can put off Roth conversions for the future will not want to find themselves generating investment income through either Roth conversion or tax gain harvesting.

FiveSigmas

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #113 on: December 22, 2017, 10:31:48 PM »
So that mentions income taxes; not sure if it applies to property as well.

Initial reports suggested it was both, but now it looks like prepaying property taxes IS allowed, if you can do it in the next eleven days.

FWIW, in King County WA, prepayment checks are being rejected (because of state laws that pre-date the TCJA):

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/king-county-dont-prepay-your-property-taxes-now-to-avoid-tax-hit-next-year/

LateToTheParty

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #114 on: December 23, 2017, 08:16:40 AM »
So that mentions income taxes; not sure if it applies to property as well.

Initial reports suggested it was both, but now it looks like prepaying property taxes IS allowed, if you can do it in the next eleven days.

FWIW, in King County WA, prepayment checks are being rejected (because of state laws that pre-date the TCJA):

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/king-county-dont-prepay-your-property-taxes-now-to-avoid-tax-hit-next-year/

This is the case for Washington County, OR too.  They are not accepting any property tax prepayments. http://www.co.washington.or.us/AssessmentTaxation/
Bummer.

Gin1984

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #115 on: December 23, 2017, 09:13:19 AM »
Move to an income tax-free state and do a 529 rollover before starting withdrawals?

Rollover to another state’s plan triggers recapture too (at least in NY).
But you could pull it out for private school and use the money you were planning to use for private school to double dip state tax deductions. 

Joel

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #116 on: December 23, 2017, 09:38:11 AM »
We are now on the cusp of itemizing or taking the standard deduction. I just pulled forward my January mortgage payment and April property tax payment into 2017 since we will be itemizing. We will take the standard deduction in 2018. I’m predicting by 2019, it will be worthwhile to pull forward the mortgage and property tax bill into December again. Thus alternating between standard and itemized on a go forward basis, at least for a few years.

facepalm

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #117 on: December 23, 2017, 10:36:22 AM »

     2.  Should our portfolio, perhaps, change to include rental properties? 

Any other ideas/questions that we can share, brainstorm, and take advantage of this new scheme (ahem) tax plan?

I recommend buying a golf course.

Golf (in the USA) has been on the decline for at least a decade. The prospects for youth sports complexes seem to be a bit better: 15 billion dollar industry.

Of course, fantasy sports are doing even better, but I don't think the IRS will allow you a deduction for your fantasy sports camp.

Gin1984

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #118 on: December 23, 2017, 10:48:41 AM »
I still need to look, does the daycare FSA expire in five years like the house wanted?

boarder42

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #119 on: December 28, 2017, 07:56:12 AM »
Just prepaid 2 months of interest on the house for 2018  considering going to 3 but not sure yet

instant 31% ROI

Wile E. Coyote

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #120 on: December 28, 2017, 09:03:50 AM »
Just prepaid 2 months of interest on the house for 2018  considering going to 3 but not sure yet

instant 31% ROI

The IRS indicates that prepaying next year’s interest is not deductible until the year the interest is applicable.

Prepaid interest. If you pay interest in advance for a period that goes beyond the end of the tax year, you must spread this interest over the tax years to which it applies. You can deduct in each year only the interest that qualifies as home mortgage interest for that year.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p936

boarder42

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #121 on: December 28, 2017, 09:18:06 AM »
Just prepaid 2 months of interest on the house for 2018  considering going to 3 but not sure yet

instant 31% ROI

The IRS indicates that prepaying next year’s interest is not deductible until the year the interest is applicable.

Prepaid interest. If you pay interest in advance for a period that goes beyond the end of the tax year, you must spread this interest over the tax years to which it applies. You can deduct in each year only the interest that qualifies as home mortgage interest for that year.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p936

so when my 1098 comes and shows interest i paid will it show that some was prepaid for next year?  if not how does the IRS track this ...

further reason we really should have simplified the tax code this year.

slappy

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #122 on: December 28, 2017, 09:56:16 AM »
Just prepaid 2 months of interest on the house for 2018  considering going to 3 but not sure yet

instant 31% ROI

The IRS indicates that prepaying next year’s interest is not deductible until the year the interest is applicable.

Prepaid interest. If you pay interest in advance for a period that goes beyond the end of the tax year, you must spread this interest over the tax years to which it applies. You can deduct in each year only the interest that qualifies as home mortgage interest for that year.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p936

so when my 1098 comes and shows interest i paid will it show that some was prepaid for next year?  if not how does the IRS track this ...

further reason we really should have simplified the tax code this year.

I've seen it mentioned in some of the news articles about people pre paying property taxes. The payments are being accepted but there is no guarantee they will be deductible for 2017. I imagine there is a box that can be checked on the form that indicates some of the interest/tax paid was for another tax year. I feel like the whole "double up on the payments so you can deduct more in one year" is not new (especially with mortgage payments), just not as prevalent as it will be this year. I'm curious to see how the IRS handles it.

VoteCthulu

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #123 on: December 28, 2017, 10:40:39 AM »
So far the IRS has advised that you can deduct 2018 taxes in 2017 only if you've received the assessment in 2017. Since many counties don't assess property taxes until the year they're due, this will disallow it for most people.

I don't know how likely this ruling is to be changed or clarified, but at this point I wouldn't be worried about getting the pre-payment in if you don't have the bill in hand.

I'm still glad I sent in my check as soon as I heard about it, since the worst case scenario is that I don't get any deduction and lose the low interest rate for 6-9 months I get on my emergency fund (yes, I consider the chance to save about $1500 an emergency, flame away if you want)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 11:01:01 AM by VoteCthulu »

slappy

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #124 on: December 28, 2017, 10:44:55 AM »
So far the IRS has ruled that you can deduct 2018 taxes in 2017 only if you've received the assessment in 2017. Since many counties don't assess property taxes until the year they're due, this will disallow it for most people.

I don't know how likely this ruling is to be changed or clarified, but at this point I wouldn't be worried about getting the pre-payment in if you don't have the bill in hand.

I'm still glad I sent in my check as soon as I heard about it, since the worst case scenario is that I don't get any deduction and lose the low interest rate for 6-9 months I get on my emergency fund (yes, I consider the chance to save about $1500 an emergency, flame away if you want)

Good to know. For some it may work. If the taxes are due in January anyway, they may have gotten a bill in December. Mine are due December 1st and July 1st, so it definitely wouldn't work for me.

VoteCthulu

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #125 on: December 28, 2017, 11:00:31 AM »
I should have said "IRS adviced" instead of "IRS ruled", since this is not a final ruling by the IRS. Everyone remember that the whole tax change shit-storm is still evolving, so tomorrows answers are often different from today's.

robartsd

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #126 on: December 28, 2017, 11:23:01 AM »
So far the IRS has advised that you can deduct 2018 taxes in 2017 only if you've received the assessment in 2017. Since many counties don't assess property taxes until the year they're due, this will disallow it for most people.
Most jusristictions assess property taxes on a July-June fiscal year basis. About half the taxes are usually due before the end of the calendar year and about half the taxes are usually due in the next calendar year, so most people can move about 1/2 of their property taxes into an earlier income tax year. It usually isn't possible to prepay property taxes beyond the first half of the coming year for an earlier income tax deduction.

robartsd

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #127 on: December 28, 2017, 11:28:48 AM »
I made my mortgage payment on my servicer's website this week instead of having my bank mail a check on Friday or Tuesday. We'll see if that gets me an extra $500 primary residence interest to deduct in 2017. I also asked the servicer to pay the property tax bill that they had planned to pay in March from my escrow account before the end of the year. Any additional cash I want to use to increase my deductions I will prepay donations to charity planned for 2018 as I know that the IRS will allow that deduction.

VoteCthulu

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #128 on: December 28, 2017, 12:12:55 PM »
Most jusristictions assess property taxes on a July-June fiscal year basis.
This may be true in your state, but I don't think this applies to most of the counties in the US. I haven't found a good data compilation of assessment periods online, though, so you could be right.

Cpa Cat

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #129 on: December 28, 2017, 12:25:26 PM »
So far the IRS has advised that you can deduct 2018 taxes in 2017 only if you've received the assessment in 2017. Since many counties don't assess property taxes until the year they're due, this will disallow it for most people.
Most jusristictions assess property taxes on a July-June fiscal year basis. About half the taxes are usually due before the end of the calendar year and about half the taxes are usually due in the next calendar year, so most people can move about 1/2 of their property taxes into an earlier income tax year. It usually isn't possible to prepay property taxes beyond the first half of the coming year for an earlier income tax deduction.

This is how it works in my location. Everyone is sitting on a property tax bill with the first half due December 20, 2017, and with the second half optional. I've advised clients to pay the full payment, since we have the bill and the option is available.

boarder42

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #130 on: December 28, 2017, 12:26:29 PM »
My takeaway from what I've seen in politics over the past year or so -- such as the new tax law -- is that all the people who say government is the enemy are seeming much less like kooks lately. I would not at all be surprised to see more open rebellion begin to happen. I'm not trying to be alarmist, but things seem to be trending a certain way right now and I have never seen this many people upset to the point where they are openly talking about stuff that would have been unimaginable to me even a decade ago.

Social media and the internet didn't exist like.this a decade ago.

HeadedWest2029

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #131 on: December 28, 2017, 12:29:07 PM »
Regarding prepayment of property tax, I sent mine in early before there was clarity.  The IRS announcement yesterday dashed my hopes of a quick tax reduction win, but I called a trusted, local CPA who assured me that it would be deductible even after hearing the announcement Wednesday.  A CPA friend on Facebook said the same.  The CPA explained it to me that even though the assessment is sent in 2018, the tax lien date is 2017 so it will be deductible.  Our county is saying to mail in 100-105% of the bill from last year and we'll settle the difference later in 2018.  I still don't feel 100% confident in the deduction, but with 2 CPA's saying I'm good to go it seems like a relatively low risk try given the opportunity cost is a "high yield" savings account.  It would seem a blanket statement one way or another is misinformed.  Call a CPA in your county who has digested the IRS news from Wednesday.  I'd be curious what others have found

sol

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #132 on: December 28, 2017, 01:20:32 PM »
My takeaway from what I've seen in politics over the past year or so -- such as the new tax law -- is that all the people who say government is the enemy are seeming much less like kooks lately.

Before Trump was elected, the idea of the "gangster government" persecuting people for their political leanings was mostly a right-wing persecution complex.  Now, the Treasury Secretary and his friends openly crow about how the new tax plan is "death to democrats" because of the SALT restrictions.

My, how things change.

VoteCthulu

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #133 on: December 28, 2017, 02:30:30 PM »
Indeed, the political pendulum swings such that whatever one side denounced the other for is now good while they're in power, and will again be denounced when they lose power in the future. It seems lile the only philisophical consistency in politics now is "us good, them bad".

Undecided

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #134 on: December 28, 2017, 06:37:37 PM »
Indeed, the political pendulum swings such that whatever one side denounced the other for is now good while they're in power, and will again be denounced when they lose power in the future. It seems lile the only philisophical consistency in politics now is "us good, them bad".

What do you see as the Democrats' recent history of turnabout as fair play? I think it's been a half century of milque toast response on their side when they take power.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #135 on: December 28, 2017, 09:34:14 PM »
Indeed, the political pendulum swings such that whatever one side denounced the other for is now good while they're in power, and will again be denounced when they lose power in the future. It seems lile the only philisophical consistency in politics now is "us good, them bad".

What do you see as the Democrats' recent history of turnabout as fair play? I think it's been a half century of milque toast response on their side when they take power.

Before 2009, Democrats usually sought support from the other side of the aisle for things they did. When the GOP flatout said they would not support any healthcare legislation, Obama directed the Democrats to pass the ACA on their own anyway. That enraged Republicans and they decided to completely block every piece of legislation that came through Congress as a result. Democrats responded by branding all Republicans as evil. Then, in 2017 when the GOP took control of all three branches of government, they decided to cut Democrats out of the decision-making process entirely and rule as a one-party state.

This stuff has been building up for a decade now and it's gotten to the point where things seem like they are about to explode from half the country feeling like they've been silenced. All because a bunch of politicians decided to act like spoiled children.

Undecided

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #136 on: December 29, 2017, 07:51:13 AM »
Indeed, the political pendulum swings such that whatever one side denounced the other for is now good while they're in power, and will again be denounced when they lose power in the future. It seems lile the only philisophical consistency in politics now is "us good, them bad".

What do you see as the Democrats' recent history of turnabout as fair play? I think it's been a half century of milque toast response on their side when they take power.

Before 2009, Democrats usually sought support from the other side of the aisle for things they did. When the GOP flatout said they would not support any healthcare legislation, Obama directed the Democrats to pass the ACA on their own anyway. That enraged Republicans and they decided to completely block every piece of legislation that came through Congress as a result. Democrats responded by branding all Republicans as evil. Then, in 2017 when the GOP took control of all three branches of government, they decided to cut Democrats out of the decision-making process entirely and rule as a one-party state.

This stuff has been building up for a decade now and it's gotten to the point where things seem like they are about to explode from half the country feeling like they've been silenced. All because a bunch of politicians decided to act like spoiled children.

I must be missing the point—how is this an example of Democrats doing what they denounced Republicans for, as VoteCthulu described? Even with the new tax bills and law, Democrats’ complaints seemed to center on lack of public sessions, not having drafts to review in advance of discussions and votes, etc. I can’t picture Democrats pulling off a move like Republicans did with Merrick Garland’s nomination, for example (and don’t think anyone’s claiming they did something similar in the past).

robartsd

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #137 on: December 29, 2017, 08:18:51 AM »
I must be missing the point—how is this an example of Democrats doing what they denounced Republicans for, as VoteCthulu described? Even with the new tax bills and law, Democrats’ complaints seemed to center on lack of public sessions, not having drafts to review in advance of discussions and votes, etc.
I think the Republicans felt pretty much the same way about the ACA. "You have to pass it to find out what's in it." Democrats did it to get their new social program passed. Republicans did it to get their new tax cuts for the rich passed. I've feel that VoteCthulu is right - the polarization of US politics has been increasing for decades.

TomTX

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #138 on: December 29, 2017, 09:45:43 AM »
I must be missing the point—how is this an example of Democrats doing what they denounced Republicans for, as VoteCthulu described? Even with the new tax bills and law, Democrats’ complaints seemed to center on lack of public sessions, not having drafts to review in advance of discussions and votes, etc.
I think the Republicans felt pretty much the same way about the ACA. "You have to pass it to find out what's in it." Democrats did it to get their new social program passed. Republicans did it to get their new tax cuts for the rich passed. I've feel that VoteCthulu is right - the polarization of US politics has been increasing for decades.

They may claim to feel that way, but it's bullshit.

https://www.snopes.com/aca-versus-ahca/

Modern Republican strategy:

Gaslight
Project
Obstruct

...and I'm saying this as someone who was part of the Republican party for decades.

Gin1984

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #139 on: December 29, 2017, 10:45:35 AM »
I must be missing the point—how is this an example of Democrats doing what they denounced Republicans for, as VoteCthulu described? Even with the new tax bills and law, Democrats’ complaints seemed to center on lack of public sessions, not having drafts to review in advance of discussions and votes, etc.
I think the Republicans felt pretty much the same way about the ACA. "You have to pass it to find out what's in it." Democrats did it to get their new social program passed. Republicans did it to get their new tax cuts for the rich passed. I've feel that VoteCthulu is right - the polarization of US politics has been increasing for decades.
Might want to include the entire quote:
Quote
Imagine an economy where people could follow their aspirations, where they could be entrepreneurial, where they could take risks professionally because personally their families [sic] health care needs are being met. Where they could be self-employed or start a business, not be job-locked in a job because they have health care there, and if they went out on their own it would be unaffordable to them, but especially true, if someone has a child with a pre-existing condition. So when we pass our bill, never again will people be denied coverage because they have a pre-existing condition.

We have to do this in partnership, and I wanted to bring [you] up to date on where we see it from here. The final health care legislation that will soon be passed by Congress will deliver successful reform at the local level.  It will offer paid for investments that will improve health care services and coverage for millions more Americans. It will make significant investments in innovation, prevention, wellness and offer robust support for public health infrastructure.  It will dramatically expand investments into community health centers.  That means a dramatic expansion in the number of patients community health centers can see and ultimately healthier communities.  Our bill will significantly reduce uncompensated care for hospitals.

You’ve heard about the controversies within the bill, the process about the bill, one or the other.  But I don’t know if you have heard that it is legislation for the future, not just about health care for America, but about a healthier America, where preventive care is not something that you have to pay a deductible for or out of pocket.  Prevention, prevention, prevention–it’s about diet, not diabetes. It’s going to be very, very exciting.

But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.
This was AFTER everyone access to read, AFTER multiple debate, DURING time where the citizens had time to read and QUESTION the bill.  None of that was done with the GOP tax plan.  Let's not pretend they are equivalent here, because they are not. 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 04:55:43 PM by Gin1984 »

TexasRunner

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #140 on: December 29, 2017, 12:42:58 PM »
Can we please keep this thread from going political? 

It's been extremely useful regarding hacking the new tax plan and the political discussion in the last 15+/- posts is really not helping.


Back to the thread....
Anybody got a good definition or understanding of the pass-throughs?  I haven't found a great synopsis of them online yet.


The time for the political discussion is done (my side lost).  Now I want to start a discussion on how to hack this tax plan.  What are some of the creative ways can we game this plan?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 12:44:32 PM by TexasRunner »

sol

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #141 on: December 29, 2017, 01:00:32 PM »
Wouldn't it be great if you could control the behavior of other people on the internet who persist in discussing uncomfortable facts that make you question your ideology?  Man, that would be like comfortable pajamas.

TexasRunner

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #142 on: December 29, 2017, 01:12:23 PM »
... who persist in discussing uncomfortable facts that make you question your ideology? ...

Its not changing my mind on anything, honestly.  And isn't useful to the discussion HERE.  Take it to the "Regret Voting Republican" thread.

Back to the thread....
Anybody got a good definition or understanding of the pass-throughs?  I haven't found a great synopsis of them online yet.

katsiki

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #143 on: December 29, 2017, 02:39:01 PM »
Back to the thread....
Anybody got a good definition or understanding of the pass-throughs?  I haven't found a great synopsis of them online yet.



You may find what you are looking for in this thread...

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/taxes/pass-through-business-deduction/

TexasRunner

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #144 on: December 29, 2017, 03:21:10 PM »
Back to the thread....
Anybody got a good definition or understanding of the pass-throughs?  I haven't found a great synopsis of them online yet.

You may find what you are looking for in this thread...

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/taxes/pass-through-business-deduction/

Thats perfect, thanks!

Undecided

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Re: How to Hack the New Tax Plan
« Reply #145 on: December 29, 2017, 03:45:43 PM »
Wouldn't it be great if you could control the behavior of other people on the internet who persist in discussing uncomfortable facts that make you question your ideology?  Man, that would be like comfortable pajamas.

Maybe he should homeschool us.