Author Topic: How to free myself from status anxiety?  (Read 4103 times)

Caesarean

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 4
How to free myself from status anxiety?
« on: April 28, 2019, 03:47:22 AM »
Greetings,

I have been reading the MMM blog on and off for years, but this is my first time really using the forum — please do forgive me if this post is in the wrong place, or if it comes across as bloggish, but I really would appreciate your experience and help with regard to this problem.

A bit of background: I am 29 years old. As a child, I showed very high academic potential but, realising early in secondary school that I could get excellent grades while doing bugger all, I developed a tendency for procrastination which took over my life. By the end of HS I had very little motivation or conscientiousness — having fallen in love with computers, I had wanted to become a programmer but never had the discipline to see the tutorials through to the end — and when higher education left me to my own devices, my life crumbled — I dropped out of three separate undergraduate courses before my parents threatened to make me work any unskilled job I could find, which somehow got my rear into gear and saw me through to obtaining a bachelor's in History. I did, however, drop out of my master's, after which I entered teacher training.

In personality trait terms, I have low conscientiousness (although it's not as bad as it used to be and I am becoming better at structuring my life without external pressure or coercion) and high neuroticism (I give in to negative feelings easily).

I now find myself a teacher in a mediocre secondary school, a job which I don't enjoy and for which I receive a gross income of around $45k. Meanwhile I have a friend of seven years who, as a senior programmer in a blue-chip company — the sort of job that, deep down since my teenage years wish, I wish I had pursued —, has a base salary of $218k a year.

I compare my situation to his and it haunts me; it revives in me all my regrets and makes my past failures feel present and salient. I feel envy of his job and of his salary. It depresses me and makes me a bad friend — when he tells me that he still sometimes struggles with depression, I am secretly reassured rather than dismayed. It is toxic.

There is evidence that happiness is less affected by absolute wealth than by comparison of one's own socio-economic status to that of one's neighbours, colleagues, and friends:

http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1974718,00.html

And yet, given my Mustachian ways, I am on my way to achieving FIRE by age 40. I mean, I don't even know what I would do with huge amounts of money — when I think of it, if I had the freedom afforded by financial independence, what I would want to do is build meaningful friendships, improve myself by reaching personal goals, etc — nothing I actually need a large income for.

Have you already experienced status anxiety? How did you free yourself from it? How do I free myself from the tyranny of comparison and of past ghosts?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 04:07:31 AM by Caesarean »

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2019, 04:42:02 AM »
I think there are two issues here. The first is that you are still haunted by past ghosts. That is a separate issue and I think a support group, talking with supportive friends, or some therapy might help.

In relation to status anxiety generally, I think it helps to remember that other people's "projections" (of wealth, status etc) are often a defence mechanism. In reality, most people are aimless, scared and just want the best for themselves. Mentally breaking down others' "shells" (I am not saying to accost others, but to understand what status displays are actually aimed at) might help you feel better.

Trust me, even the best teacher, or other professional, still struggles with little and big things. Once you know this, things don't seem quite as scary any more.

Another way I free myself from status anxiety is to say that I simply don't care. I'll wear what I like because the truth is, if you believe in yourself, you can get away with it. Status is more about internalised knowledge and self-belief than anything else. It helps if your speech and thoughts gel with the 'dominant cultural narrative', but if you are posting on this site, then you probably already have that level of intellectual privilege.

Hula Hoop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1762
  • Location: Italy
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2019, 04:49:10 AM »
This is difficult in the age of social media.  One thing that really taught me a lesson about status anxiety was a few years ago when I was feeling a bit jealous of a friend who a fabulous thriving business, three beautiful children and a rich husband.  On FB her life looked perfect.

Then one day she called me desperate for a place to stay as her rich husband was abusive and she was leaving him.  She is now a single mother of 3 kids working a normal job and dealing with a very nasty drawn out divorce.  Things can look very different from another person's POV.  I told my friend about how her life always looked so perfect on FB and she says that she was in deep denial about her husband's abuse the fact that her life was falling apart so she posted things on FB that looked a bit too "perfect".  Anyway, she has a lot less money now and a much more difficult life but she says that she is about a million times happier. 

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2019, 04:59:00 AM »
This is difficult in the age of social media.  One thing that really taught me a lesson about status anxiety was a few years ago when I was feeling a bit jealous of a friend who a fabulous thriving business, three beautiful children and a rich husband.  On FB her life looked perfect.

Then one day she called me desperate for a place to stay as her rich husband was abusive and she was leaving him.  She is now a single mother of 3 kids working a normal job and dealing with a very nasty drawn out divorce.  Things can look very different from another person's POV.  I told my friend about how her life always looked so perfect on FB and she says that she was in deep denial about her husband's abuse the fact that her life was falling apart so she posted things on FB that looked a bit too "perfect".  Anyway, she has a lot less money now and a much more difficult life but she says that she is about a million times happier.

There is often an inverse correlation between 'social media happiness' and real happiness. Some of the happiest and most successful people I know (based on catching up with them in real life and knowing how their careers are going) are the most mundane/understated on social media.

I consider myself a happy and successful person and I make a point to post silly things on social media - like me doing jumping jacks (I look like a derp) or doing something cheap and fun like playing pool. I'm trying my bit to be "anti-aspirational" as much as I can.

I think it is easier if you remember that the more someone posts about extravagant things on social media, the more likely it is that the person is insecure and craving attention. There are exceptions to this, of course, but people with their shit together don't need to brag about it on Instagram.

Put more bluntly, only the middle class need to be aspirational. Old money doesn't give a shit. Act like old money. Drive a shit car, wear modest clothes and own it.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2019, 05:30:32 AM »
Let's look at this through a different lense:

Would a mentally healthy, happy, self actualized person who is living their best life feel insecure about others around them being more professionally successful and making more money?

No, obviously not.

My life is lousy with people far more financially successful than I am because I lack the motivation to work the way they do for their wealth.

Do I feel bad about that? Absolutely not!
Why? Because I've chosen this life for myself. I am living my best life and have actively chosen not to accept the trade offs necessary to achieve their level of wealth.
It's all good.

I'm cool with it because I've put a lot of time and energy into figuring out what I need to be happy, and I've invested the effort to make my life good. And don't think for a second that I don't have a history chock-a-block with bad decisions I've had to overcome. We all do, it's normal.

So what you were a lazy teenager who fucked up in high school and didn't really manage to nail it in university either.
So what? That's like, a super common story.

So what you hate your job and you aren't very happy with your income.
And???...yeah, also a super common story.

So what are you going to do about it?

You sound like you are intelligent, probably not lazy anymore, you haven't mentioned any major disability, any children, or any major debt that might limit your options. So, I really don't see what could possibly be holding you back from constructing your best life???

CONGRATS!
You already are ahead of the game by not having huge barriers to success in your way. Most people at your age don't have so many doors open to them.

Do you actually think you would prefer programming to teaching?
If so, CONGRATS! You happen to want the easiest skill possible to self teach on your own time, which does not require a degree! Also, if you actually enjoy teaching at all, that opens the door to teaching programming as well! The possibilities are numerous.

You've already got the frugality and savings part worked out.
CONGRATS! You are way ahead of 99.9% of people in terms of nailing the hardest part of engineering your best life.

What I'm seeing is someone young, intelligent, educated, financially savvy, with no barriers in their way *except themselves*.

CONGRATS!!!!
The only thing you have to do in order to start living your best life is to get out of your own damn way, which is something you have 100% control over!!!

So...tell us...what are you going to do about it???

soccerluvof4

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7161
  • Location: Artic Midwest
  • Retired at 50
    • My Journal
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2019, 05:43:44 AM »
Let's look at this through a different lense:

Would a mentally healthy, happy, self actualized person who is living their best life feel insecure about others around them being more professionally successful and making more money?

No, obviously not.

My life is lousy with people far more financially successful than I am because I lack the motivation to work the way they do for their wealth.

Do I feel bad about that? Absolutely not!
Why? Because I've chosen this life for myself. I am living my best life and have actively chosen not to accept the trade offs necessary to achieve their level of wealth.
It's all good.

I'm cool with it because I've put a lot of time and energy into figuring out what I need to be happy, and I've invested the effort to make my life good. And don't think for a second that I don't have a history chock-a-block with bad decisions I've had to overcome. We all do, it's normal.

So what you were a lazy teenager who fucked up in high school and didn't really manage to nail it in university either.
So what? That's like, a super common story.

So what you hate your job and you aren't very happy with your income.
And???...yeah, also a super common story.

So what are you going to do about it?

You sound like you are intelligent, probably not lazy anymore, you haven't mentioned any major disability, any children, or any major debt that might limit your options. So, I really don't see what could possibly be holding you back from constructing your best life???

CONGRATS!
You already are ahead of the game by not having huge barriers to success in your way. Most people at your age don't have so many doors open to them.

Do you actually think you would prefer programming to teaching?
If so, CONGRATS! You happen to want the easiest skill possible to self teach on your own time, which does not require a degree! Also, if you actually enjoy teaching at all, that opens the door to teaching programming as well! The possibilities are numerous.

You've already got the frugality and savings part worked out.
CONGRATS! You are way ahead of 99.9% of people in terms of nailing the hardest part of engineering your best life.

What I'm seeing is someone young, intelligent, educated, financially savvy, with no barriers in their way *except themselves*.

CONGRATS!!!!
The only thing you have to do in order to start living your best life is to get out of your own damn way, which is something you have 100% control over!!!

So...tell us...what are you going to do about it???



+1- You could not of wrote this better IMO.

Caesarean

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2019, 06:09:00 AM »
Thank you all for your answers so far, but especially Malkynn.

Let's look at this through a different lense:

Would a mentally healthy, happy, self actualized person who is living their best life feel insecure about others around them being more professionally successful and making more money?

No, obviously not.

My life is lousy with people far more financially successful than I am because I lack the motivation to work the way they do for their wealth.

Do I feel bad about that? Absolutely not!
Why? Because I've chosen this life for myself. I am living my best life and have actively chosen not to accept the trade offs necessary to achieve their level of wealth.
It's all good.

I'm cool with it because I've put a lot of time and energy into figuring out what I need to be happy, and I've invested the effort to make my life good. And don't think for a second that I don't have a history chock-a-block with bad decisions I've had to overcome. We all do, it's normal.

So what you were a lazy teenager who fucked up in high school and didn't really manage to nail it in university either.
So what? That's like, a super common story.

So what you hate your job and you aren't very happy with your income.
And???...yeah, also a super common story.

So what are you going to do about it?

You sound like you are intelligent, probably not lazy anymore, you haven't mentioned any major disability, any children, or any major debt that might limit your options. So, I really don't see what could possibly be holding you back from constructing your best life???

CONGRATS!
You already are ahead of the game by not having huge barriers to success in your way. Most people at your age don't have so many doors open to them.

Do you actually think you would prefer programming to teaching?
If so, CONGRATS! You happen to want the easiest skill possible to self teach on your own time, which does not require a degree! Also, if you actually enjoy teaching at all, that opens the door to teaching programming as well! The possibilities are numerous.

You've already got the frugality and savings part worked out.
CONGRATS! You are way ahead of 99.9% of people in terms of nailing the hardest part of engineering your best life.

What I'm seeing is someone young, intelligent, educated, financially savvy, with no barriers in their way *except themselves*.

CONGRATS!!!!
The only thing you have to do in order to start living your best life is to get out of your own damn way, which is something you have 100% control over!!!

So...tell us...what are you going to do about it???

I really needed to read this. My mind has fucked up my perspective by making it so focused on past mistakes instead of future opportunities.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2019, 06:41:27 AM »

I really needed to read this. My mind has fucked up my perspective by making it so focused on past mistakes instead of future opportunities.

CONGRATS!
That too is 100% within your control and an extremely common problem that literally thousands of people are experts in repairing.

Mindfulness meditation, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, or sessions with a psychologist are all readily available options for you to actively change the way you engage with your own reflections on the past.

So far you haven't stated a single problem that isn't totally and completely within your control to change.

Remember, you actually *chose* the life you are living now. You can either focus on your past decisions, or start making better decisions and choose a better life.

It's up to you. Completely up to you.

And you know what? I envy you for that.
I'm facing some major life decisions due to some new realities that are completely outside of my control, which have rendered some of my life choices suboptimal now.

Whose position would you rather be in?
Yours, where you are very young, educated, and have every door open for you to do literally anything you want with your life?
Or mine, where I'm older than you, I didn't fuck up in school so I did it for 11 years, and now, less than a decade into my career that I sacrificed for, I may have to walk away due to factors completely beyond my control?

Which of us should be miserable about our circumstances?
Neither.

I'm not miserable at all. I'm sad and stressed, yes, but I'm also really excited for my next steps because like you, I have a lot of doors open. Staying put in my career was great, but it kept a lot of doors closed. Now I get to try new things, which is exciting.

The past is the past. The decisions you made in the past are done and can't be changed, so don't waste your energy on worrying about them.

Besides, there's an absolutely wonderful thing about looking back and realizing that your behaviour was idiotic: it means you've grown.

My nightmare is to look back 10 years and not think of myself as ridiculous, because if I look back without an ounce of embarrassment, then I won't have learned a damn thing in an entire decade, and that would be fucking tragic.

Looking back on yourself and shaking your head is a privilege of being wiser. Embrace it.


Adam Zapple

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 473
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2019, 08:01:19 AM »
Great response by Malkynn.  I cannot second the suggestion to try mindfulness meditation strongly enough.  I recently faced an existential crisis.  I saw everything in my life as a burden, including my home, family, career choice, etc.  This situation was a complete figment of my imagination but weighed on me very heavily.  I am much like you in that I never reached my career potential and am prone to laziness and procrastination.  I started reading self-help books.  One book I read was "Miracle Morning" by Hal Elrod.  I have to admit, the book is pretty lousy, but the morning routine he outlined was pretty good and included a basic meditation where you just sit quietly and count as you breathe in and out.  It was amazing how much clarity I gained by learning to free my mind of all thoughts for 10 minutes a day.  I began feeling appreciation for the things I have instead of focusing on the things I do not.  Other things to try are positive affirmation and written goals. 

If you want to learn to program, I would suggest taking a class.  If you are not self-motivated, let someone else motivate you and teach you how to do it.  I would never be able to teach myself something like that because I work and learn best when I am around other people.  Maybe you are the same way.

Rosy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2742
  • Location: Florida
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2019, 03:16:58 PM »
Malkynn's posts rock - +1
Nevertheless, I feel compelled to add my own two cents:).

My first thought after reading your post was - OK, now what are you gonna do about it?
This is an easy fix - if it is truly what you want to do.
You actually have the luxury of not having any impediments in your way - no family to consider, no health problems and still young enough for a career change.
You've already got your degree and are fully on the mustachian path - wow, you got it together.

The career switch needs a bit of planning as well as time and effort, but it is totally doable, you have the intelligence and the wherewithal. So, JDI!

You are where you are because of the choices you have made in the past. In ten years you will be where you are because of the choices you make today!:) So make different choices, now that you have realized that you could have done better and indeed still can.
It isn't even a missed opportunity - yet:)

Boy, do we envy you:) All those of us who are out of options or literally out of time (too old) or wrangling with health issues or miserable, difficult life circumstances of our own making or imposed upon us.

If it helps, I changed careers at fifty, even went back to College for a different degree then opened my own business and loved it. It wasn't easy, but I have never regretted my decision - it was a gift to myself:).

As far as wishing we had a different life - I once took a month vacation on an island after a devastating personal crisis. There was a couple at the resort my age who were so happy with each other. Why couldn't I have that? Envy, deep sadness, personal failure, even hate - to mention a few of my feelings while I observed these two interact so lovingly with each other.

One day, she invited me to come along on an afternoon walk on the beach while he took a nap. Turns out he had terminal cancer, diagnoses - max of three months to live.
He very much regretted his choices in life - building a small business, working 24/7, leaving her to raise their two boys practically alone, never going to their school functions or engaging with them or accompanying her on family or social functions.
He succeeded in business and their plan was to relax at 40 and enjoy life together. He wanted to leave a legacy, for one of his children to take over the business.
He would never reach forty and neither of his boys was interested in the business - he never would get a chance to spend more time with his wife.

It punched me in the gut to listen to her talk about his "friends" who wouldn't stop by for a visit even once after he had his first round of chemo. Business acquaintances are fair-weather friends at best. It was an eye-opener for him to realize who his real friends were. Their circle of friends dwindled drastically and once again, it was she who supported him throughout. He never knew what he had until it was too late.

All our choices have consequences. What we choose not to do is often more devastating and damaging than we realize.

Parizade

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1028
  • Location: Variable
  • Happily FIREd
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2019, 04:02:11 PM »
Have you already experienced status anxiety? How did you free yourself from it? How do I free myself from the tyranny of comparison and of past ghosts?

You've already gotten excellent advice from others here, I just want to say I think you are being really hard on yourself. For a 29 year old you seem to have your life very pulled together and on track. I also think it's pretty normal to be comparing yourself to others, feeling a twinge of competition, and questioning if you are really where you want to be in life. It's not necessarily toxic, it's a natural human tendency and you can harness it for good. For example, when you are serving a meal at a homeless shelter you are also comparing your life to those around you  but coming to a very different conclusion. That may be all you need right now to balance the scales, find a compelling volunteer activity that gives you a chance to make more positive (and in my opinion more realistic) comparisons.

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8569
  • Location: Norway
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2019, 04:16:59 AM »
There is really no point in regretting the past, because the past is something you can't change. You can only look ahead and change your future. Try to think hard about what you want to achieve in the future and make steps towards it.

I guess that many people make mistakes in their lives. I made several that have had a certain impact, although it is hard to measure precise. It is totally human to make mistakes. Don't dwell with them. Only look ahead.

Blindsquirrel

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
  • Age: 6
  • Location: Flyover country
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2019, 05:38:37 AM »
@Malkynn     You so need to start a blog! Or an advice column, or write a book.  @Caesarean  aside from reading Malkynn's wise posts every single day for anxiety meditation does work and I suggest you start with this, NSFW language. Not being flippant at all as it is quite powerful.
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/07/08/fuck-that-meditation-video_n_7753822.html

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2019, 05:59:50 AM »
@Malkynn     You so need to start a blog! Or an advice column, or write a book.  [

N'ah.
I'm not too enthusiastic about what happens to women who invite an audience on the internet. Been there, done that, got the police report.

I've constructed a life where most people aren't in a position to get away with being shitty to me. It's nice.

brute

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 691
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2019, 06:10:43 AM »
@Malkynn     You so need to start a blog! Or an advice column, or write a book.  [

N'ah.
I'm not too enthusiastic about what happens to women who invite an audience on the internet. Been there, done that, got the police report.

I've constructed a life where most people aren't in a position to get away with being shitty to me. It's nice.

I'm sorry that happened, but god damn isn't it the truth. It was bad enough for me as a dude. Stalkers, 100s of unsolicited d!ck pics daily, attempts to trash me or fake things I'd done just to bring me down. I encouraged my wife to do something similar many years later after some amazing accomplishments, and she reminded me that i'd be covered in the blood of keyboard warriors and on my way to prison in about 10 minutes, so it's probably best if we don't do that.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17394
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2019, 06:32:37 AM »
@Malkynn     You so need to start a blog! Or an advice column, or write a book.  [

N'ah.
I'm not too enthusiastic about what happens to women who invite an audience on the internet. Been there, done that, got the police report.

I've constructed a life where most people aren't in a position to get away with being shitty to me. It's nice.

I'm sorry that happened, but god damn isn't it the truth. It was bad enough for me as a dude. Stalkers, 100s of unsolicited d!ck pics daily, attempts to trash me or fake things I'd done just to bring me down. I encouraged my wife to do something similar many years later after some amazing accomplishments, and she reminded me that i'd be covered in the blood of keyboard warriors and on my way to prison in about 10 minutes, so it's probably best if we don't do that.

Lol, yeah, my DH is very very pretty, he wouldn't do well in jail.

To relate this back to the topic at hand though, it is actually relevant: everything in life is a trade off.

This little detour is a great illustration about how everything comes at a cost, and you should never view anyone's circumstances through rose coloured glasses.

I know enough rich people (self made and trust fund kids), famous people, politicians, great academics, activists, etc, to know that no one is immune to suffering and misery, and accomplishing greatness has very little correlation with living a great life. 

OP, the misery of those with "more" shouldn't reassure you, it should terrify you. It should be seen as a warning that no one has it easy, nothing worth doing is easy, and everything comes at a cost.

The goal should never be to get as much of something as possible: success, money, fame, whatever. It should be to have the self knowledge to be able to know what trade offs are worth it and what aren't.

More is not better, more is just more, and every more you get, you purchase with giving up something else.

Funnily enough, knowing what doesn't matter to you is actually more important than knowing what does matter in a way. It's what you don't care about that can be used as currency in your trade offs.

Milizard

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 769
  • Location: West Michigan
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2019, 07:54:46 AM »
Yes, I have status anxiety.  Going through HS, you get a feeling of where you stack up in the hierarchy.  I also had an issue with procrastination.  I see how much farther others who were less capable than me in school have gone in their careers.  It's really disheartening.  In my 40's, I finally figured out that I'm probably ADD.  I've figured out strategies to help me finish and follow through with things, and got another degree.  Life still got in the way, and I'm older so it's so much harder to get a foot in the door any longer.  Nobody wants to give an internship to a 40-something, for example.  So, you see, you're way ahead of me if you're on track to retire at 40!

You're still young, and still have time to reinvent yourself if you want to.  I pursued IT back when it started becoming a hot field (when I was around your age).  I did great in the classes, but I quit when I realized I didn't geek out over the stuff like many of the other students did.  Are you sure you're really that into programming?  It occurs to be that, if you were, it would already be a hobby for you, like building computers was for my fellow students back in those IT classes.

If you still think you really like the stuff, there are ways to learn and develop stuff on your own, and you could leverage that knowledge with your current field.  Offer a class on coding to students, develop a program to help yourself with teaching/grading, or maybe write a book on programming for the students at your school instead of an older audience. (I noticed that you write well.)  Use what you got, and find a way to pivot it in the direction you want to go.  I think you could find success that way.

Laura33

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3479
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2019, 09:44:20 AM »
There is little to be said that hasn't already been more-than-ably covered already, but since when have I let that stop me?

First:  you have mislabeled yourself.  This isn't status anxiety.  You are not anxious about keeping up with other people.  You are anxious about keeping up with yourself -- specifically, that version of you that your parents and teachers and everyone else expected you to be.  You know, that perfect, shining star with so much promise and potential.  Goddamn I hate that word.  When everyone is SO proud of how smart you are and how quickly you learn, you become a trained monkey, jumping through the hoops so people keep telling you how smart you are and give you another cookie.  But they don't see you, do they?  They see the perfect little trained monkey.  And so over time, that's who you see as well.  And when you jump or fall off the path, you feel like a failure -- even when it's your own choice, even when you realize that path doesn't fit you, you still feel like you are failing everyone (not just them, but yourself).  Because you didn't "live up to your potential."  Right?

So here's lesson 1:  it is impossible for anyone to live up to that kind of potential.  Because it's not real -- it's an image of some perfect child that your parents and teachers have projected on to you.  And that image says much more about their imaginary dreams than about who you really are. 

Which brings lesson 2:  it is not your job to live up to your potential.  Because that potential you wasn't you -- heck, it wasn't even real and could never have been.  And that means that the fact that you fell off that track early on is the best thing in the world that could possibly have happened to you!  Even if it feels like shit.  Because your job is to figure out who you are and what you enjoy.  And imagine how much harder that would be if you had wasted another 20 years trying to be someone else's version of you!  Like, maybe, your friend has done -- I mean, heck, if he has your "dream" job, and he's still depressed, then how much of a dream is it really?

So, suggestions:  first, get tested for ADHD.  The symptoms you describe are very consistent with that, and a lot of smart kids never get diagnosed, because schoolwork is easy and they never have to work too hard to manage it despite the distractability.  (Ask me how I know).  And then a lot of kids hit the much harder demands of college or job or whatever, and their minimal coping skills are overwhelmed, and they crash and burn.*  Sound familiar?  So get checked out, because there are meds that can help a whole hell of a lot, and therapeutic approaches that can help you develop both systems to manage your life and coping strategies for managing the anxiety/depression that frequently go along with ADHD.

And then second, develop the mental habit of realizing that every option out there is open for you -- they all just have tradeoffs that you may or may not be willing to make.  Want to do what your friend does and make that kind of money?  OK -- learn to code, maybe go back to school, you can do that.  But also look at his hours, look at what he actually does for hours and hours, look at his working environment, look at the life he leads.  Is he at the beck and call of clients or bosses and required to work long hours on a regular and unpredictable basis?  That is a very, very different life than teaching school, right?  Will the work hours require you to outsource more, because you don't have time to cook/do laundry/clean/etc.?  That means that you are inflating your lifestyle, which means you now need even more money put aside to be FI.**  But beyond that, what will that extra money provide you that you do not already have in your life?  More stuff?  More fancy nights out?  That's not the source of happiness.  And you know that already, because you're a good chunk of the way down the road to FI while on a salary 1/4 of your friend's -- right?

IME most people get focused on others' successes when they are unhappy with something in their own life.  So consider that it's not about your friend's success, it's about something that you feel is lacking.  If that is something career-oriented, you have the power and ability to do whatever is necessary to change that.  But if it is all about not living up to your potential, then the best path forward is therapy, because no amount of money is ever going to fill up that hole inside of you.

* This possibility is also what gives me pause about you and coding.  Because IME, it is physically impossible for ADHD people to force themselves to focus, long-term, on something that doesn't interest them.  Which would entirely explain why you switched from coding in the first place, if you chose it when you were in trained-monkey mode because it sounds like a career path that makes a lot of money and makes the parents proud -- great, right?  Until you discovered that you fould it dull as hell and didn't suit your skill set at all.

**And don't bullshit yourself telling yourself it's temporary and you'll stop when you FIRE.  Trust me:  you'll get used to the luxury and decide you like it and aren't willing to give it up.  (again:  ask me how I know -- you'll pry my cleaning lady out of my cold, dead hands).

Caesarean

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2019, 10:13:14 AM »
I really want to thank you all for your answers — there is too much to reply to individually here and a lot of food for thought, but please know that I am deeply grateful to all of you. Depressive thinking distorts reality and this kind of external input is so helpful in reframing one's perspective. Thank you.

MonkeyJenga

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8894
  • Location: the woods
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2019, 10:36:31 AM »
Which brings lesson 2:  it is not your job to live up to your potential.  Because that potential you wasn't you -- heck, it wasn't even real and could never have been.  And that means that the fact that you fell off that track early on is the best thing in the world that could possibly have happened to you!  Even if it feels like shit.  Because your job is to figure out who you are and what you enjoy.  And imagine how much harder that would be if you had wasted another 20 years trying to be someone else's version of you! [...]

So, suggestions:  first, get tested for ADHD.  The symptoms you describe are very consistent with that, and a lot of smart kids never get diagnosed, because schoolwork is easy and they never have to work too hard to manage it despite the distractability.  (Ask me how I know).  And then a lot of kids hit the much harder demands of college or job or whatever, and their minimal coping skills are overwhelmed, and they crash and burn.*  Sound familiar?  So get checked out, because there are meds that can help a whole hell of a lot, and therapeutic approaches that can help you develop both systems to manage your life and coping strategies for managing the anxiety/depression that frequently go along with ADHD.

Hmmmm. HMMMMM.

Caesarean

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2019, 10:41:59 AM »
Are you sure you're really that into programming?  It occurs to be that, if you were, it would already be a hobby for you, like building computers was for my fellow students back in those IT classes.

This possibility is also what gives me pause about you and coding.  Because IME, it is physically impossible for ADHD people to force themselves to focus, long-term, on something that doesn't interest them.  Which would entirely explain why you switched from coding in the first place, if you chose it when you were in trained-monkey mode because it sounds like a career path that makes a lot of money and makes the parents proud -- great, right?  Until you discovered that you fould it dull as hell and didn't suit your skill set at all.

Those are really good questions.

I originally took an interest in coding in my early teens not out of any sort of extrinsic motivation but because I found the idea of understanding how computers worked fascinating in and of itself. Thing is, when it came to the nitty gritty of learning how to do it, I would start a tutorial on C, C++, Python, Bash, JavaScript, whatever (I started learning all of these at least once) but then it would peter out somewhere along the way. Same thing happened with Japanese — I had a fascination with Japan but once I'd learnt the kana, I didn't really have the motivation to follow through with, well, actually learning the language. I think pretty much the only significant time this pattern in my life has been broken is when I somehow mustered the motivation, one summer when I was sixteen, to go to the library every day to work through nearly thirty chapters of Wheelock's Latin. I cherish that as a golden memory, as one of the few times in my life I actually had the motivation and discipline to pursue a goal and reap rewards commensurate to my efforts. For years after that, I had this idea that I'd reopen Wheelock's again and pick up my study of Latin, but I was intimidated by the prospect of actually reopening the thick tome and never got round to it. Just as I was intimidated by the idea of re-starting a programming tutorial or opening my Japanese course on page 1 with hundreds of pages to go.

Pretty much all I've ever had the discipline to do in my adult life is endlessly refresh imageboards for hours a day and click on the videos the YouTube algorithm has tailored for me — and yet I know that this isn't what I want to do with my life, and deep down the lack of fulfilment leaves me feeling like shit. I still have no idea how I mustered up enough motivation not to fail my History exams or teacher training assessment. It's why I don't trust my past actions, or lack of action, as a good measure of what would actually make me feel fulfilled. I don't think I've really had any "passion", in the sense of something that utterly compels my interest, since my late teenage years — and yet the only rewarding experiences I've really felt are the few times I've managed to muster up the discipline to push through with something despite my reluctance of engaging with anything that requires effort. (For the past few months I've been forcing myself to do some of Orberg's Lingua latina every day — it's this weird dynamic where I put off doing it all day, but when I finally do get round to it, I'm glad I did.)

I think it's partly why I'm so tormented by this programming thing: if I picked it up and had the discipline to go through with it even when it required more effort than refreshing another imageboard tab or loading another YouTube video, would something in me "fall into place" as I finally mastered a discipline that first appealed to me all those years ago, and which all of these years I've told myself I should really get round to learning? Or am I just lying to myself by telling myself that it's something I have to do, because I formed a fixation with it in my early teen years? I know that I don't want to do what I've been doing for the greater part of my life, but if I do things now — and I've reached a point where anything that requires effort feels forced, in a sense, even when I want to do it and I'm glad I did it once it's done —, how do I know I am doing them "authentically"?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 10:46:15 AM by Caesarean »

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2019, 10:53:57 AM »
Which brings lesson 2:  it is not your job to live up to your potential.  Because that potential you wasn't you -- heck, it wasn't even real and could never have been.  And that means that the fact that you fell off that track early on is the best thing in the world that could possibly have happened to you!  Even if it feels like shit.  Because your job is to figure out who you are and what you enjoy.  And imagine how much harder that would be if you had wasted another 20 years trying to be someone else's version of you! [...]

So, suggestions:  first, get tested for ADHD.  The symptoms you describe are very consistent with that, and a lot of smart kids never get diagnosed, because schoolwork is easy and they never have to work too hard to manage it despite the distractability.  (Ask me how I know).  And then a lot of kids hit the much harder demands of college or job or whatever, and their minimal coping skills are overwhelmed, and they crash and burn.*  Sound familiar?  So get checked out, because there are meds that can help a whole hell of a lot, and therapeutic approaches that can help you develop both systems to manage your life and coping strategies for managing the anxiety/depression that frequently go along with ADHD.

Hmmmm. HMMMMM.


I agree that no one is obliged to (or even necessarily "should", in an objective sense) live up to his or her potential.

If it makes you happy, by all means do it.

If it doesn't, then do what makes you happy.

The world is full of pragmatic realities, like the fact that being deprived usually means a shit life, and not being deprived usually requires work of some sort, and work usually aligns well with potential. So in that sense, living up to your potential probably correlates with happiness. However, it's a means to an end. Don't chase the means, but rather the end.

In other words - figure out what makes you happy, and do that, but keep enough pragmatism and flexibility to be able to respond to road-blocks in your way.

On a related note - when people display "status" - they are chasing a means, not an end. They chase status because they think it will lead to popularity, which leads to social approval, which leads to happiness. Although this is probably a correct chain of assumptions, one could just as easily chase social approval directly (by being a nice friend), or even better, just chase happiness directly (by learning what sort of activities or mindsets make you happy, and giving yourself the best chance of doing them). So, try to chase the things you want, not the intermediate steps.

*I am not saying that all luxury purchases are necessarily done for status seeking reasons - some people just like quality things. But I would say all displays of such products are gauche and based on seeking approval, and approval seeking is one of the best ways to make yourself miserable. Give yourself all the approval you need - don't seek it from others.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 10:58:11 AM by Bloop Bloop »

Laura33

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3479
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2019, 12:00:04 PM »
I think it's partly why I'm so tormented by this programming thing: if I picked it up and had the discipline to go through with it even when it required more effort than refreshing another imageboard tab or loading another YouTube video, would something in me "fall into place" as I finally mastered a discipline that first appealed to me all those years ago, and which all of these years I've told myself I should really get round to learning?

No.  You have anchored to the programming thing as the symbol of When It All Went Wrong, so you think if you could just go back and fix that one thing, everything would go back on the right track again, and you would find your "passion"* and be happy and all would be right with the world.  This is bullshit, and it is holding you back.

Seriously, go see a therapist.  You have developed some really, really damaging self-talk about who you are.  Someone who -- voluntarily! without any school pressure or payoff! -- spends the summer studying Latin is anything but lazy.  So why does trying-and-not-finishing coding or Japanese or whatever mean you're a failure?  Why can't it mean you just got bored with it?  I mean, my DH spent a year in his teens trying to invent artificial blood, until he finally gave up.  Now he's got a Ph.D and multiple patents -- so does that mean he's a failure because none of them have anything to do with artificial blood?  See how silly that sounds when applied to someone else? 

This is a big, huge deal, because the only thing holding you back is your warped view of yourself.  People live up -- or down -- to their expectations of themselves.  If you constantly tell yourself you're a quitter, then whenever you have an idea to start something, you will talk yourself out of it, because why bother trying if you're just going to give it up anyway?  Or maybe you start, but then the first time you don't do it, well, that's it, you're off the path and into the failure zone again, so why bother trying to go back to it again?  And then you get depressed because you feel like you'll never amount to anything, and that depression convinces you that everything requires far more energy than it's worth, so might as well just stay on this couch.

Seriously:  go see a therapist.  Now.  I spent 50 years thinking of myself as lazy, because my mom is the hardest worker I know.  Seriously:  I am a partner in a law firm, I'm married, I have two kids and a house and three cats and all the trappings of a "successful" life -- and all I could think about was how lazy I was compared to everyone around me.  Until my therapist called me on it -- she gave me this completely incredulous look, listed everything I had done, and then pointed out that maybe my mom is at the reeeeeaaaallll skinny end of the bell curve.  Realizing she was right helped me give myself permission to go part-time (which was what I really truly wanted to do but felt hugely guilty about).  If you really want to figure out what the "authentic" you wants, you need to break that mental loop that tells you all the ways you have been less-than-imaginarily-perfect and start giving yourself credit for everything you've accomplished so far.  Which, btw, is a hell of a lot more than a lot of people your age!!   

*"Passion" is a myth.  I could rant for hours about this, but yes, some people find their passion, but for the vast majority of us, we find some job that has a reasonable combination of interest + salary + working conditions + ability to have a life.  So stop comparing your job or possible future careers to how they stack up to the mythical beast, and start evaluating how well your job is serving you now, today, in all those areas.

MonkeyJenga

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8894
  • Location: the woods
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2019, 12:08:34 PM »
Which brings lesson 2:  it is not your job to live up to your potential.  Because that potential you wasn't you -- heck, it wasn't even real and could never have been.  And that means that the fact that you fell off that track early on is the best thing in the world that could possibly have happened to you!  Even if it feels like shit.  Because your job is to figure out who you are and what you enjoy.  And imagine how much harder that would be if you had wasted another 20 years trying to be someone else's version of you! [...]

So, suggestions:  first, get tested for ADHD.  The symptoms you describe are very consistent with that, and a lot of smart kids never get diagnosed, because schoolwork is easy and they never have to work too hard to manage it despite the distractability.  (Ask me how I know).  And then a lot of kids hit the much harder demands of college or job or whatever, and their minimal coping skills are overwhelmed, and they crash and burn.*  Sound familiar?  So get checked out, because there are meds that can help a whole hell of a lot, and therapeutic approaches that can help you develop both systems to manage your life and coping strategies for managing the anxiety/depression that frequently go along with ADHD.

Hmmmm. HMMMMM.


I agree that no one is obliged to (or even necessarily "should", in an objective sense) live up to his or her potential.

If it makes you happy, by all means do it.

If it doesn't, then do what makes you happy. [...]

I think you read something different than I intended with my very vague hmmm's. I was just talking to someone about ADHD, and I did a self diagnostic checklist to see whether I have it. No, but only barely no. Like, 4.25 criteria, when 5 is the cutoff for clinical diagnosis. I identify a lot with the scenario Laura outlined, and I have enough criteria in common that mitigation strategies could be useful.

I fell off the "what great potential" track early, so I've already got that covered. :P

Enigma

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 491
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Clarksville, TN
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2019, 02:32:42 PM »
When I was 28/29 I transitioned from education to computers.  Computers is what I wanted to do in high school but in college I was in the same place you were.  I ended up finishing my BS in mathematics and even then I struggled.  I couldnt find a job in computers/IT instead I found myself teaching.

You are young enough that if that was your passion you should chase it.  I got a job with Central Texas College working overseas in Afghanistan.  I knew from my brother at the time that they offer certifications and testing in the testing center.  My goal was to cert-up and transition to computers.  That is what I did.  I took my Comptia A+ & Comptia Net+...  WHILE networking with guys that I knew that worked for ITT Systems.  After my networking and certifications I had a foot in the door as a helpdesk technician.  Since then things have changed.

Be willing to follow your dreams.  If you want it embrace it.  If you find yourself in a career you love...  you will never work a day in your life.

partgypsy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5207
Re: How to free myself from status anxiety?
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2019, 06:39:18 PM »
I agree with others that this isn't status anxiety so much, as anxiety, fear about not living up to your expectations. Not other people's expecations, your own expectations, and I would listen to that. Again you didn't mention any externalities preventing you from taking a path that is more rewarding (For Whatever Reason) to you, this is the time to do it. Don't be your own worst enemy. I think given the expectations and comparisons you mention, you WOULD be happier with yourself if you did something that was externally more validating i.e. "successful". And remember every job has crap you have to deal with. Luckily, lower paying jobs have as much crap and bueracracy and paperwork as higher paying jobs, so might as well pursue a better paying job.

Your story reminds me of myself a little. I didn't ever drop out of school, I mean I did well in college, grad school, got a post doc, have publications. But I never lived up to my potential, what people expected of me. What I expected of myself as well. I am still reminded of that. I was supposed to be the person who writes the grants (and I did, at one time). Now I work for people who write and get grants funded. At the same time I do have a lot of externalities I have a mortgage payment, value security and most important two kids who need a stablilty over "living my "best life". Most of the time I like and appreciate my job. But I was always made known I didn't live up to other people's expectations... I have also felt this way in the sense a hobby of mine, I just have no time to do it and that was one thing that made me feel at least I was doing something special, and just me.   

Anyways, my sister is even a sadder story about this. She wanted to be an artist, I mean she was an artist (got a scholarship to the Art Institute of Chicago, was in actual group art shows when she was High school, after college had at least one solo show and sold her art (her art was used for a cd cover), but my parents were really not supportive. Combined with self doubts, depression, she decided that art was what was ruining her life and swore it off. But it kind of killed something in her, she goes from one dead end job to the next. If she is not personally deeply motivated, she just can't fake it.

I don't know what I'm trying to say, but don't let others. And especially don't let yourself prevent you from what you really want to do, even if other people is silly or not necessary. In this case talking to a therapist or a good friend or family member may elucidate your feelings about the subject.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 09:27:24 AM by partgypsy »