Author Topic: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?  (Read 3955 times)

archistache

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How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« on: November 25, 2018, 07:06:00 PM »
Just discovered MMM this weekend and realize I need to get rid of my financed SUV and buy something less expensive and more practical. The problem, as I see it, is that I don't currently have the cash to buy a less expensive car.  The best option I can think of is to save up the cash by cutting expenses in other areas until I have enough to buy with cash. But even if I spend as little as $2,000 I would need to save for 6 months to a year. And I worry that a car that cheap would be likely to need expensive repairs soon after. Or if I save up the cash for 2-3 years to get a more reliable car, my current car will be paid off by then anyway, so is it better just to keep it? (I'm sure that's not the right solution, just thinking out loud here.)

What suggestions do you all have for me on how to transition to the less expensive car?

In case it makes a difference in your suggestions, my current car is a 2010 Toyota 4Runner that I still owe $13,000 on, at 3.69% APR, and would be paid off in 3 years if I kept it that long. I live in a rural area at the top of a very steep mountain road that gets heavy snow and ice in the winter, and I drive 86 miles round trip to work and home each day. So the 4WD seems very handy, although I know MMM has written about front wheel drive with good snow tires being almost as good.

Any suggestions are much appreciated.

***Edit: Additional Info:

I don't want to move closer to work (over 40 miles away) because I'm a divorced father with a young child who lives with me half the week so I need to be close to her and her school.

That said, I could sell my house up on the mountain and move down into the valley closer to our town. Then I wouldn't need the 4WD. However my house is very affordable and I have decent equity in it (I believe). Bought it last year for $189,000 and my real estate agent said she could sell it right now for $215,000. So it seems like a good investment to hold on to, but tell me if I'm looking at it wrong.

Also, if it matters, in about 7 years (when my child graduates from high school) I'm going to sell the house and move from the East Coast back home to the West Coast. So my thought has been to hold onto the house until then to build up as much equity in it as possible.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 10:42:07 AM by archistache »

Cassie

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2018, 07:17:44 PM »
At this point I would keep it and drive it for as long as possible once it’s paid off. Then next time have the money saved up to pay cash.

Another Reader

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2018, 07:28:05 PM »
I would focus on all other areas of cutting expenses first.  In your case, given where you live, it's going to be difficult to substitute an adequate vehicle for your needs at a much lower price that is reliable. Once you have a better idea of where you can cut expenses and build up some savings and investments, you can make a more informed decision about your vehicle needs.  Moving closer to work might be something to consider at that point, which would go along with a less expensive car.

Not Sure

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2018, 08:15:44 PM »
Can you move closer to your job or get a job closer to your home?  Work longer days for fewer days a week? Is there someone you can carpool with? Keeping fuel in that 4Runner has got to be killing you.

big_slacker

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2018, 08:30:01 PM »
Just discovered MMM this weekend and realize I need to get rid of my financed SUV and buy something less expensive and more practical. The problem, as I see it, is that I don't currently have the cash to buy a less expensive car.  The best option I can think of is to save up the cash by cutting expenses in other areas until I have enough to buy with cash. But even if I spend as little as $2,000 I would need to save for 6 months to a year. And I worry that a car that cheap would be likely to need expensive repairs soon after. Or if I save up the cash for 2-3 years to get a more reliable car, my current car will be paid off by then anyway, so is it better just to keep it? (I'm sure that's not the right solution, just thinking out loud here.)

What suggestions do you all have for me on how to transition to the less expensive car?

In case it makes a difference in your suggestions, my current car is a 2010 Toyota 4Runner that I still owe $13,000 on, at 3.69% APR, and would be paid off in 3 years if I kept it that long. I live in a rural area at the top of a very steep mountain road that gets heavy snow and ice in the winter, and I drive 86 miles round trip to work and home each day. So the 4WD seems very handy, although I know MMM has written about front wheel drive with good snow tires being almost as good.

Any suggestions are much appreciated.

Personally I'd keep the 4runner. MMM loves the subcompact because it fits his situation. A flat city that has snow but good plowing/sanding. A subcompact with snow tires does great. He doesn't live in a rural area with icy/snowy hills, longer plow intervals, dirt roads and mud, flooding, etc. I use my 4wd regularly, 4lo and locking diff less often but when I need 'em I NEED 'em.

Also worth noting is a 4runner is a 'buy it once, buy it right' type of vehicle. Yes they have a drivetrain that's unchanged since Bush was in office. OTOH many of the ones that launched back then are still on the road. My parent's '00 has 250k+ miles. My buddy had near 400k on his before it was stolen, he got another one. My FJ (same platform, more offroady) is ALMOST broken in with 92k miles.

It sounds like you really need a reliable, CAPABLE vehicle to get back and forth to work safely. You have one with legendary reliability and great capability. Unless you're really drowning due to the monthly payment I'd stick with what you've got.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2018, 08:52:53 PM »
You're driving 1720 miles per month commuting to your job.  That's a big expense in money, time, and wear & tear on your car.  What mpg does it get, maybe 20?  What if you had a smaller Awd car that gets 30 mpg?  That's 1/3 lower gas costs, or about $90 per month.   
In 3 years you'll drive 62,000 miles to your job.  You can crunch the numbers.

The 2010 4Runner will be 11 years old in 3 years.  They run forever, but you'll still be putting gas in it as long as you own it. 


You're asking about your vehicle, but you might want to think about living closer to your job too.  How much time do you spend driving the 86 miles per day, or 1720 miles per month, or 20,640 miles per year?  20,640/60mph =344 hours per year of driving.  That's 8.6 forty hour weeks per year.  Just think how nice it would be to get 8.6 more weeks off per year, or to get paid for 8.6 more weeks.  Plus the vehicle costs. 


Should you keep the 4Runner, or should you figure out how to change cars?  It's worth more now than it will be in 3 years and 62,000 more miles. 


Seeing the "numbers" will help you decide what you need to do.


You said you owe $13,000.  How much is it worth?  Can you sell it for $13,000?  How much are your payments?  If you're driving the "wrong" car today, why keep driving and paying for the wrong car tomorrow?  I guess I should have called it a "truck" to prove the point a bit more. 


Consider you financial path like you would any other journey.  When you discover a better map to your goals it's smarter to adjust your coarse sooner than later. 


Oh, and "welcome to the forum".  :)






 

archistache

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2018, 05:13:16 AM »
I already agree that it makes sense to sell my car and get a less expensive one. My question is how to do that when I don't have the cash to buy one? I was hoping people here may have suggestions I haven't thought of yet. It would take me several years to save up $8-10,000 for a decent one, but my current one will be paid off in three years because I'm making extra payments.

I don't want to move closer to work (over 40 miles away) because I'm a divorced father with a young child who lives with me half the week so I need to be close to her and her school.

That said, I could sell my house up on the mountain and move down into the valley closer to our town. Then I wouldn't need the 4WD. However my house is very affordable and I have decent equity in it (I believe). Bought it last year for $189,000 and my real estate agent said she could sell it right now for $215,000. So it seems like a good investment to hold on to, but tell me if I'm looking at it wrong. Also, if it matters, in about 7 years (when my child graduates from high school) I'm going to sell the house and move from the East Coast back home to the West Coast. So my thought has been to hold onto the house until then to build up as much equity in it as possible.

Dicey

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2018, 07:03:07 AM »
I am not a car hater. I'd stick with what you have and use the vehicle as a constant reminder to be frugal in alll other ways. It's the house I want to talk about. You actually have effectively zero equity, because it costs a crap ton of money to sell a house. Is the house in good shape? In need of updating? Are you handy or willing to learn? Absent other detsils, I'd suggest focusing on ways to increase the value of the house at minimal cost. Don't prepay the mortgage if it's a fixed rate, either. Bide your time, learn to save like a ninja, and reassess periodically. Your child will probably appreciate the stability as well, but not knowing more of your circumstances, that's only an educated guess.

Another Reader

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2018, 07:05:58 AM »
I am not a car hater. I'd stick with what you have and use the vehicle as a constant reminder to be frugal in alll other ways. It's the house I want to talk about. You actually have effectively zero equity, because it costs a crap ton of money to sell a house. Is the house in good shape? In need of updating? Are you handy or willing to learn? Absent other detsils, I'd suggest focusing on ways to increase the value of the house at minimal cost. Don't prepay the mortgage if it's a fixed rate, either. Bide your time, learn to save like a ninja, and reassess periodically. Your child will probably appreciate the stability as well, but not knowing more of your circumstances, that's only an educated guess.

+1

Dicey

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2018, 07:12:33 AM »
Also, the secondary information is so significant that you should add it to your original post. It will help you get better responses and not everyone reads the comments before responding.

wageslave23

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2018, 07:15:42 AM »
To answer your question - If you are dead set on trading it in, then sell it for $13,000 or whatever its worth and use the money to pay off the loan.  Then get a new loan on a more fuel efficient vehicle.  Having a car loan for $10k is not the end of the world.  Then you can pay it off when you have the cash.

**Having a car loan at a low interest rate is usually better than wasting cash on a vehicle.  If the interest rate is low, then you should only pay it off if you are going to only have liability insurance after paying it off. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 07:18:19 AM by wageslave23 »

archistache

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2018, 10:40:14 AM »
I am not a car hater. I'd stick with what you have and use the vehicle as a constant reminder to be frugal in alll other ways. It's the house I want to talk about. You actually have effectively zero equity, because it costs a crap ton of money to sell a house. Is the house in good shape? In need of updating? Are you handy or willing to learn? Absent other detsils, I'd suggest focusing on ways to increase the value of the house at minimal cost. Don't prepay the mortgage if it's a fixed rate, either. Bide your time, learn to save like a ninja, and reassess periodically. Your child will probably appreciate the stability as well, but not knowing more of your circumstances, that's only an educated guess.

The house is in good shape except that the bathrooms need to be remodeled. I'm a licensed architect and very comfortable doing most of the work myself. So I plan to put more equity into it that way, over the next 7 years. Good point that it costs a lot to sell a house. The 6% real estate commission alone is enough to make we wait at least a few years to sell it, so it hopefully appreciates enough. And also good point on more stability for my child. Thanks!
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 10:43:58 AM by archistache »

Bracken_Joy

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2018, 10:53:59 AM »
Honestly, I think the car is secondary to a lot of other variables here. A full case study would get you a lot more creative/customized feedback.

But, to the car directly: What is the car worth? What sort of rate could you get from a local bank on a used car loan? You're looking at this as either/or: but you can have a loan on a less expensive car. It's not keep more expensive car with a loan OR pay cash for a cheap car. All depends on rates and such though.

archistache

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2018, 11:27:08 AM »
Honestly, I think the car is secondary to a lot of other variables here. A full case study would get you a lot more creative/customized feedback.

But, to the car directly: What is the car worth? What sort of rate could you get from a local bank on a used car loan? You're looking at this as either/or: but you can have a loan on a less expensive car. It's not keep more expensive car with a loan OR pay cash for a cheap car. All depends on rates and such though.

Yeah, I'm going to post a full case study soon. Just joined up this weekend, so will get my info together and post the whole story as soon as I can.

And I agree, selling the car and buying a less expensive car with a loan is a good middle ground. Even after I pay off the 4Runner, the gas mileage would still be a killer.

StashingAway

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2018, 11:48:39 AM »
Even after I pay off the 4Runner, the gas mileage would still be a killer.

This is the bit that I think the others are missing when they say "keep the car". 4Runners are great reliable off-road vehicles. 4wd/AWD is definitely nice to have with a steep driveway in the northeast (maybe even a need to have). But there are plenty of other vehicles with a low COG that will do much better on slippery roads, and will cost you less in the long run at an 89 mile commute!

And I'm not sure if you've ever tried snow tires, but if you have then you might be less skeptical. 2WD+snow tires is better any day than 4WD with all seasons or summer tires. The only place SUV's have an advantage is in their ground clearance in the really deep stuff. Well, and locking diffs for rock crawling and such. But the traction control systems on most AWD cars are actually better on slippery roads than a full on SUV. Something like a Subaru or AWD Matrix or something. I grew up in the Colorado mountains with 2WD. We didn't get nearly as much snow as New England or anything, but enough to know that 2WD is plenty capable. It really depends on how icy your hill gets, because that's where AWD would help a lot.

In your calculations, you might consider the price of snow tires and rims as part of a new vehicle purchase. Snow tires have sipes for grip and a much softer rubber compound on ice. Fully mounted tires and steel rims shipped is about $1000 for something like a subaru, and they'll last several seasons if you swap them out in the summer.

MilesTeg

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2018, 12:12:48 PM »
And I'm not sure if you've ever tried snow tires, but if you have then you might be less skeptical. 2WD+snow tires is better any day than 4WD with all seasons or summer tires. The only place SUV's have an advantage is in their ground clearance in the really deep stuff. Well, and locking diffs for rock crawling and such. But the traction control systems on most AWD cars are actually better on slippery roads than a full on SUV. Something like a Subaru or AWD Matrix or something. I grew up in the Colorado mountains with 2WD. We didn't get nearly as much snow as New England or anything, but enough to know that 2WD is plenty capable. It really depends on how icy your hill gets, because that's where AWD would help a lot.

Having snow tires is _always_ the key to safe winter driving.

BUT, what you state here is not quite correct. All else being equal, a typical 4WD vehicle will be better suited to slippery conditions than a typical AWD vehicle. The reason is because in the case of loss of traction (or just turning) an AWD vehicle will deliver 100% of engine power to 1 wheel, whereas a 4WD will always split that power to 2 wheels. This is important because it means that for a given power input, you are less likely to break traction on any wheel, because less power is being delivered to the drive wheel(s).

Of course, traction control, locking diffs, limited slip diffs, etc also change it, but in nearly all those circumstances the 4WD will distribute engine power to more wheels than an AWD. This is always an advantage to maintaining traction under power (which despite the usual half-informed talking point, includes turning not just getting going).

FIRE@50

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2018, 12:31:03 PM »
A quick search on kbb.com indicates that you probably have some positive equity in the Toyota. I don't see why you wouldn't just trade it in and finance whatever smaller, more efficient car that you want. Perhaps you are overthinking the problem?

Also, have you looked for jobs closer to home?

Dancin'Dog

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2018, 12:32:23 PM »
While I'll admit it's not much fun, we spent quite a few years parking at the bottom of our 1/4 mile gravel driveway that has a couple of steep sections.  Even now that we have a 4wd and an Awd vehicle we still end up having to hoof-it after big storms. 
We've had to use a kids sled to pull the groceries to the house. 


It is good for the cardio system! 


Seems like an architect could possibly work at home occasionally?  If so, that would really help with snow days & maybe lower you're mileage if you could do it maybe one day a week. 

StashingAway

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2018, 01:00:50 PM »

All else being equal, a typical 4WD vehicle will be better suited to slippery conditions than a typical AWD vehicle. The reason is because in the case of loss of traction (or just turning) an AWD vehicle will deliver 100% of engine power to 1 wheel, whereas a 4WD will always split that power to 2 wheels. This is important because it means that for a given power input, you are less likely to break traction on any wheel, because less power is being delivered to the drive wheel(s).

Of course, traction control, locking diffs, limited slip diffs, etc also change it, but in nearly all those circumstances the 4WD will distribute engine power to more wheels than an AWD. This is always an advantage to maintaining traction under power (which despite the usual half-informed talking point, includes turning not just getting going).

For the sake of friendly discussion, I disagree a bit. Sure, in older open systems, a 4WD transfer case spits power front/back and AWD can leave you stranded with one tire spinning. But there are a lot of modern cars with traction control/LSD that do amazing on slippery surfaces making the difference much less noticeable, and I find that the body roll and weight of SUV's make them less predictable on the roads. That's a total anecdote, though- I don't have any hard data on that one! Even the relatively crappy VSC TRAC in my front wheel drive Toyota does surprisingly well considering how the system functions. Worlds better than the stuff from the 90's anyway.

In terms on on-road handling in the snow and ice, I'd take the traction control in a Subaru over a 4Runner. 4Runner eats the Subie up on fire roads and real four wheeling or overlanding or deep stuff, but SUV's on the street is a bit of a burden for me. And a fully locked diff on the streets I really don't like because it guarantees weird handling and either tire chirping or breaking traction on turns- both aren't good in slippery weather!

archistache

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2018, 01:03:45 PM »
A quick search on kbb.com indicates that you probably have some positive equity in the Toyota. I don't see why you wouldn't just trade it in and finance whatever smaller, more efficient car that you want. Perhaps you are overthinking the problem?

Also, have you looked for jobs closer to home?

I was trying to avoid financing because MMM says you should NEVER NEVER do it :)  But I do think that is looking like the most reasonable option. It'd be great if I could get a hybrid or electric car for under $10,000. I'd save thousands on gas alone.

There are no jobs closer to home. I look regularly. It's a very small town. I have started my own side business with plan to work for myself from home within next couple years, hopefully. I need to post my full case study soon to fill in all this necessary detail.

J Boogie

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2018, 01:04:09 PM »
Here's what you should do in my opinion:

-Trade in for a subaru outback/forester to get better MPGs. Something like that. You won't need much if any cash to do this at the dealership.

-Plan your move into the valley. Figure out what's your best move in terms of selling vs renting it out as well buying vs renting your place in the valley. You are an architect with plenty of free time to remodel, so a slow flip could benefit you greatly if you minimize the risk of speculation.

archistache

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2018, 01:17:56 PM »
While I'll admit it's not much fun, we spent quite a few years parking at the bottom of our 1/4 mile gravel driveway that has a couple of steep sections.  Even now that we have a 4wd and an Awd vehicle we still end up having to hoof-it after big storms. 
We've had to use a kids sled to pull the groceries to the house. 


It is good for the cardio system! 


Seems like an architect could possibly work at home occasionally?  If so, that would really help with snow days & maybe lower you're mileage if you could do it maybe one day a week.

From bottom of mountain to top, where my house is, is about 3 miles and 1600' of elevation gain, so unfortunately walking it is not a good option. And the road has no shoulder and many switchbacks so not safe for walking on. Most of my neighbors are older retired folks, who don't have to drive everyday, go figure, haha. It is a great idea though for those with shorter roads.

And yes, I can work from home occasionally, but the remote VPN connection is frustratingly slow. I do use if from time to time when I'm seriously snowed in. But in general, for now, I have to go in to work, until I can work for myself full time.

mschaus

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2018, 01:18:35 PM »
A quick search on kbb.com indicates that you probably have some positive equity in the Toyota. I don't see why you wouldn't just trade it in and finance whatever smaller, more efficient car that you want. Perhaps you are overthinking the problem?

Also, have you looked for jobs closer to home?

Agreed -- to answer the OP's primary question: to sell the car without having money for a new one, just sell the car first on Craigslist to get the money out of it. You can do the transaction at the bank where the loan and title are kept. The buyer hands you 15k (or whatever) in cash, then you in turn hand over 13k to the banker, and they hand you the title, which you then hand over to the buyer.

For the few days you will be without a car, borrow one from a friend or family, or rent one through the normal agencies or Turo. Problem solved.

Also agreed that if you aren't willing to move your house (makes sense to be close to daughter), then start to work on finding a new job, or arranging remote work.

Let us know how it goes!

StashingAway

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2018, 02:10:46 PM »
I was trying to avoid financing because MMM says you should NEVER NEVER do it :)  But I do think that is looking like the most reasonable option. It'd be great if I could get a hybrid or electric car for under $10,000. I'd save thousands on gas alone.

True, but since you're already financing a vehicle, you aren't hurting anything by downsizing to a smaller loan/vehicle. Trade-in value for a 2010 4Runner is likely about what you owe on it depending on mileage and condition. Selling it private party you can probably even get more: 15K cash would give you a couple thousand on a down payment for a more fuel efficient vehicle and you're ahead of the game saving $ on running costs. This would take some logistics to have a loaner vehicle while in between vehicles, but if you can find friends/family that have an option it's probably the best financial way to do it. Otherwise, just go for the trade-in! You can get a 2010 Legacy or Forester for under 10K, putting you 3K ahead of your current loan.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 02:13:51 PM by StashingAway »

FiftyIsTheNewTwenty

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2018, 05:54:48 PM »
To answer your question - If you are dead set on trading it in, then sell it for $13,000 or whatever its worth and use the money to pay off the loan.  Then get a new loan on a more fuel efficient vehicle.  Having a car loan for $10k is not the end of the world.  Then you can pay it off when you have the cash.

**Having a car loan at a low interest rate is usually better than wasting cash on a vehicle.  If the interest rate is low, then you should only pay it off if you are going to only have liability insurance after paying it off.

+1 for both. 

I don't know how "trucky" your vehicle needs to be, for ground clearance and durability, but you might look into a few-year-old Subaru.  The Crosstrek has good clearance, and a good ride over rough terrain.

Don't forget insurance costs in the overall picture.

Also, you can always get a better deal from a private party, as long as the vehicle's history is clear.

Livingthedream55

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2018, 08:32:21 AM »
I am not a car hater. I'd stick with what you have and use the vehicle as a constant reminder to be frugal in alll other ways. It's the house I want to talk about. You actually have effectively zero equity, because it costs a crap ton of money to sell a house. Is the house in good shape? In need of updating? Are you handy or willing to learn? Absent other details, I'd suggest focusing on ways to increase the value of the house at minimal cost. Don't prepay the mortgage if it's a fixed rate, either. Bide your time, learn to save like a ninja, and reassess periodically. Your child will probably appreciate the stability as well, but not knowing more of your circumstances, that's only an educated guess.
+2  You'll pay between 4 & 5% commission to sell the house - effectively handing over a check at closing to your real estate broker for most, if not all, of your equity. Then moving always involves costs... if you plan to relocate in 7 years I'd keep the house, hunker down on getting really frugal with spending, consider a side gig, a roommate, etc. to both reduce expenses and increase income. I'd tackle the car note first (keep it and pay it off as fast as you can - no need to wait 3 years)

Car Jack

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2018, 08:52:14 AM »
In your situation, keep what you've got.  You're someone who actually needs an all wheel drive vehicle and while you could probably trade for a used Outback, you're going to lose so much in the trade that it's not worth it.

To people who say a FWD car with snow tires is just as good, let me just say.....bullshit.  I also have a driveway that a FWD car with snows will absolutely not get up when enough snow falls.  How do I know?  I have one FWD car with great snow tires.  It will absolutely get stuck and won't get up the hill with 6" of New England heavy, wet snow.  Not a chance.  There are times I have to call my wife to drive down in the Subaru with snows to haul me up so I can get in the plow truck.

With an AWD vehicle with snows and 2 open diffs, a good plow guy trick or an offroading trick is to lightly apply the brakes.  It'll get more power to the tires with traction.  I use this when plowing snow.  I've got a limited slip on my Jeep but braking will do even more as it won't wait for slipping and of course my front open diff needs help.

StashingAway

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2018, 11:07:04 AM »
> To people who say a FWD car with snow tires is just as good, let me just say.....bullshit.

That's not what we're (well, what I was) saying. I'm saying without considering tires, the drive system is of low relevance. Everything else equal, FWD is worse than AWD for the snow, just as your anecdote suggests. I don't disagree one bit with that. But I do still maintain that [snow tires and FWD] is better than [all seasons and AWD] for the street. I bed the Subaru in your story also has snow tires- if not then I have to eat my words. I wansn't trying to not to say not to get AWD, I was just illustrating my opinion on the importance of tires. If you're pushing 6" of snow up a heavy incline in New England, then certainly used all the help you can get.

This next bit is more of a nit-pick, but I was also point out the big 4WD vehicles aren't great on the roads because of their high COG and mass. In cases of heavy deep snow it's an advantage, but for most people on maintained streets, a heavy vehicle is a detriment. That's not to say that the 4WD itself is the problem, but just that those vehicles tend to be optimized for off road travel at the expense of on-road travel and especially emergency maneuvers.

> trade for a used Outback, you're going to lose so much in the trade that it's not worth it

This part I would think some numbers need to be run for his situation. When you factor in mileage+functionality, the Subaru will be a better value in the long run. If you factor in the 89 mile commute, he's putting about 22K miles on the vehicle every year. He'd save about $750 a year alone on gas (if gas stays at $2.50/gal). That's not to mention insurance, maintenance, etc. So it would depend on how long he kept the vehicle and the terms of the trade-in and the price of gas. The breakeven could be 15 years out (meaning he'll be another vehicle by then) or 3 years out (making the trade-in worth it).

soccerluvof4

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2018, 07:08:12 AM »
The realtor just wants your listing. By the time you sell and move you wont be ahead and if your moving in 7 years I'd stay.

That means though based on my understanding you need a 4wheel drive. You have a good vehicle. Yes its not the best on fuel but should last you at least another 3 plus years and you will then have more than enough still if you sell it out right when its paid for to buy something that makes more sense. With the price a fuel down that should help near term. Find other areas to save but I'd otherwise stay status quo.

big_slacker

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2018, 07:31:55 AM »
> To people who say a FWD car with snow tires is just as good, let me just say.....bullshit.

That's not what we're (well, what I was) saying. I'm saying without considering tires, the drive system is of low relevance. Everything else equal, FWD is worse than AWD for the snow, just as your anecdote suggests. I don't disagree one bit with that. But I do still maintain that [snow tires and FWD] is better than [all seasons and AWD] for the street. I bed the Subaru in your story also has snow tires- if not then I have to eat my words. I wansn't trying to not to say not to get AWD, I was just illustrating my opinion on the importance of tires. If you're pushing 6" of snow up a heavy incline in New England, then certainly used all the help you can get.

This next bit is more of a nit-pick, but I was also point out the big 4WD vehicles aren't great on the roads because of their high COG and mass. In cases of heavy deep snow it's an advantage, but for most people on maintained streets, a heavy vehicle is a detriment. That's not to say that the 4WD itself is the problem, but just that those vehicles tend to be optimized for off road travel at the expense of on-road travel and especially emergency maneuvers.

Don't agree that even with snows the drive system is of low relevance. At least not if there are hills and ice patches in the equation. Low speed or starting from a dead stop on slick spots you want as many 'options' for drive wheels having traction as possible. I don't discount FWD cars with snows. I used to live on top of a mountain pass in tahoe and drove a civic. I got up the hill USUALLY, the place I got stuck most often or had to take multiple runs at it was the hill up to my condo. It was a left hand turn then up a steep hill. It was usually plowed later (private plows vs the ones that plow the main roads) so it would have deeper snow and you couldn't use momentum as well. FWD always struggled because it was slick and the drive wheels were obviously splitting traction between turning and moving the vehicle. It was of an art getting it around the corner with enough speed to straighten out and get going up the hill. Often multiple tries.

I got an audi A4 and even with no-season tires it always made it up. With snows it was ridiculously capable. All this to say if the numbers make sense and ground clearance/truckiness isn't such a big deal for the OP I'd take a subie 11/10 times over a FWD commuter.

StashingAway

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2018, 01:51:14 PM »
> I got an audi A4 and even with no-season tires it always made it up. With snows it was ridiculously capable. All this to say if the numbers make sense and ground clearance/truckiness isn't such a big deal for the OP I'd take a subie 11/10 times over a FWD commute

Fair enough. Thanks for keeping it cordial. I think our disagreement is minimal.

For what it's worth, I wasn't disagreeing on AWD for this particular situation. I think you're misrepresenting or misreading what I'm saying a little bit, and I'm overcompensating to clarify my point. I was speaking in general: In general, 4WD is overemphasized for snow travel. I see many people use 4WD as a first resort rather than a last resort. They should start with driving habits and tires, then if that's not enough go with 4WD. I do think an AWD sedan is the choice for OP as well... I've been saying Subie this whole thread. Because keeping a 2010 4Runner that the bank owns for an 89 mile commute doesn't seem good for the finances. We'd need to run the numbers for actual trade-in to know the break-even, but I'll bet it's only a few years before he's making more money by owning a sedan.

From my standpoint I grew up in Colorado- which doesn't get as much snow as the Midwest or New England- but definitely am not inexperienced in mountain slippery driving. I agree, on hills is where 4WD helps (I had to take a couple of runs in a FWD Saab on the steep hill out of our neighborhood occasionally where 4WD would have made it).

big_slacker

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Re: How to Downsize my Car Situation Without Having Cash?
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2018, 04:48:17 PM »
> I got an audi A4 and even with no-season tires it always made it up. With snows it was ridiculously capable. All this to say if the numbers make sense and ground clearance/truckiness isn't such a big deal for the OP I'd take a subie 11/10 times over a FWD commute

Fair enough. Thanks for keeping it cordial. I think our disagreement is minimal.

For what it's worth, I wasn't disagreeing on AWD for this particular situation. I think you're misrepresenting or misreading what I'm saying a little bit, and I'm overcompensating to clarify my point. I was speaking in general: In general, 4WD is overemphasized for snow travel. I see many people use 4WD as a first resort rather than a last resort. They should start with driving habits and tires, then if that's not enough go with 4WD. I do think an AWD sedan is the choice for OP as well... I've been saying Subie this whole thread. Because keeping a 2010 4Runner that the bank owns for an 89 mile commute doesn't seem good for the finances. We'd need to run the numbers for actual trade-in to know the break-even, but I'll bet it's only a few years before he's making more money by owning a sedan.

From my standpoint I grew up in Colorado- which doesn't get as much snow as the Midwest or New England- but definitely am not inexperienced in mountain slippery driving. I agree, on hills is where 4WD helps (I had to take a couple of runs in a FWD Saab on the steep hill out of our neighborhood occasionally where 4WD would have made it).

Yeah, I don't think we have much of a disagreement if any. People get hilariously argumentative about snow driving.

It's definitely about good winter driving practice and snow tires no matter what you're driving. My friend used to drive a '79 gran torino in tahoe, before I lived on top of the pass. He just left it at the bottom of the 2 block hill up to our place in the winter, haha! I think my original post in the thread was projecting my own situation and preference a bit. Short commutes but need the capability. If the OP doesn't need the clearance or rear locker a subie is a way better option of the numbers make sense.

 

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