Author Topic: How to balance learning and care (good) with obsession (bad)?  (Read 1480 times)

FIREeh?

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How to balance learning and care (good) with obsession (bad)?
« on: August 24, 2022, 03:14:32 PM »
One of the things I love about this forum is how members actively seek to avoid being "cheap." Instead, they try to be intentional about spending money on things that matter and avoiding psychological traps.

In a similar vein, I am trying to soak up all of the excellent knowledge here and deploy it everywhere I can in my own life. But I worry that I might be excessively programming my mind to always consider optimizing spend, to obsess over my net worth, and to envision a utopian future at the expense of relishing the good day in front of me.

That's the last thing I want, and it's certainly not what MMM is shooting for. But I suspect it's something others here have struggled with too. So, does anyone have any rules or tools that they have found helpful?

I've deleted the Mint app from my phone. I try to only review these things once at the end of the month. But when I'm having a bad or even just boring day I often feel pulled to look at my net worth and fantasize about it doubling over 10 years. And that's no way to live. All thoughts appreciated!

lifeisshort123

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Re: How to balance learning and care (good) with obsession (bad)?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2022, 05:57:48 PM »
I think it is a balance.  I guess I have the feeling “live for today prepare for tomorrow”.  To me, much of the appeal of FIRE is having flexibility, freedom and ways to pursue interests.  It is a constant balance, but finding a way to balance long term vision with short term needs and wants is key.

I decided this would be a goal about a month ago.  There are some major expenses that had to be paid over the past month - including a new A/C unit.  The short term loss of this month doesn’t mean that I need to give up on FIRE.

It is about re-languaging priorities, at least for me.  How many times have I bought a new designer product or had a fancy meal and found myself within an hour or two feeling “my life didn’t really change”.  It is recognizing that being responsible to only yourself is conquering the insecurities that consumerism papers over.  And it is recognizing that your worth is not defined by what designer products or lifestyle doesn’t mean you are any more or less valuable than someone else.  Instead, it is about saying “how can I reduce my impact on this world, and recognize that my worth comes from who I am, not from what I buy”.

wageslave23

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Re: How to balance learning and care (good) with obsession (bad)?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2022, 06:13:11 PM »
Here's a question for you: Are you checking your networth while having sex? Or hiking in the woods? Or having a drink with friends?

If the answer is no, then obsessing about early retirement is not the problem.  It's that your life currently too frequently sucks and checking balances is a nice escape.  So the answer is making your life better so that checking account balances isn't more appealing than the alternative.  When you are not FI, you have to work, and most people don't enjoy it. So if checking balances and daydreaming about FIRE gets you through the necessary suckiness, then so be it.

Morning Glory

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Re: How to balance learning and care (good) with obsession (bad)?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2022, 06:22:21 PM »
I think it's OK to let yourself delve into a new interest at first.  Over time you will naturally reach a saturation point where there just isn't much new material available,  and you will become interested in learning about something else. You will get bored with checking your net worth too.

Metalcat

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Re: How to balance learning and care (good) with obsession (bad)?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2022, 07:49:29 PM »
You're talking about two completely different concepts.

Getting enthusiastic about frugality is one thing.

Feeling like you have to put off being happy today and live for an idealized future is another, highly problematic way to think and live.

Go ahead and get super into frugality, but do not conceptualize it as some.kind of self-denial.

When done properly, good frugality should make your life better, not worse. It's not about what you can't or shouldn't spend on, it's about finding creative ways to get sooooo much more out of every dollar you do spend.

For me, it's not depriving myself of exoe dive restaurant dinners. It's the fun of trying out a new recipe at home, putting it all together, taking a gorgeous bike ride with my partner to a beautiful location, having a picnic, and having a far better time together than we would at a restaurant.

It's me learning to tailor my own clothes, so now clothing shopping is cheap and easy, because I can just make everything fit perfectly. I can buy a $3 shirt from a thrift shop and make it look like an exquisitely tailored designer piece instead of shopping for hours trying to find something flattering.

It's getting really into long walks and audiobooks. It's giving up my high maintenance hairstyle and fussy makeup and enjoying the freedom of a 5 minute morning routine. It's having games nights with friends. Going to tons of cheap/free community events. Making fresh bread, tortillas, humus, etc, all of which are a billion times better than expensive store brands.

It's not about being cheap, it's about becoming a major snob about spending. Where every dollar needs to pull it's weight in your world.

It's not about holding out for some perfect future where you will finally buy your happiness on the blood sweat and suffering of your working years. It's claiming a better life NOW.

If frugality isn't making you happier, fitter, healthier, and more interesting, then it sounds like you're doing it wrong.

ChpBstrd

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Re: How to balance learning and care (good) with obsession (bad)?
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2022, 09:55:32 AM »
I am someone who is doing this incorrectly. Rumination is never a good behavior and I'm working on it. I can't wait to be FIRE and keep trying to think of ways to do that faster, but I don't think I'm succeeding at making it come faster. All my rumination is basically an outcome of boredom.

If I'm reading MMM correctly, his point is that one should establish habits rather than worrying about every single move.

FIRE and good health happen automatically and inevitably when you establish certain habits like trying to think of an alternative before spending $10 on some object, or habitually making your own food instead of eating at restaurants, or riding a bike to work, or being suspicious of subscriptions, data plans, and other commitments. The goal is not to think "how am I going to save $10 today" it's thinking about alternatives before you open your wallet, like "maybe I can borrow this book from the library instead of buying it" or "maybe my friend has one of these I can borrow" or "maybe I don't need to pay for this much luxury" or "if I could learn to make this myself, I'd have a lifetime supply for free".

Sure, there are also strategic decisions such as mortgage refinances, career moves, real estate investments, asset allocation, business opportunities, etc. and these require self-education and focused attention. But MMM jumps into these questions, resolves them, and then gets on with life. He is heavy into VTSAX/VTI rather than frequently trading individual stocks based on headlines because (a) frequent trading and stock picking don't work, and (b) he doesn't want to spend the time.

This is the way.

Laura33

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Re: How to balance learning and care (good) with obsession (bad)?
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2022, 11:39:38 AM »
Here's a question for you: Are you checking your networth while having sex? Or hiking in the woods? Or having a drink with friends?

If the answer is no, then obsessing about early retirement is not the problem.  It's that your life currently too frequently sucks and checking balances is a nice escape.  So the answer is making your life better so that checking account balances isn't more appealing than the alternative.  When you are not FI, you have to work, and most people don't enjoy it. So if checking balances and daydreaming about FIRE gets you through the necessary suckiness, then so be it.

This.  When I am unhappy about something, I do a time audit -- I look at how I'm actually spending my time every day, and how that matches up to my goals (longer- and shorter-term).  Now, most people will tell you to take the results of that analysis and stop doing the things that don't align with your goals.  And that's great if it works for you.  But it doesn't for me, because it never sticks, so that's just one more thing to feel guilty about failing at. 

So my approach is sort of the converse:  I assume that I am doing those counterproductive things for some reason, and I need to figure out what it is and if there's a better way to address it.  The classic example for me was wasting hours on the internet or watching TV instead of doing something productive.  When I looked at why I did it, though, it was because I'm an introvert and am "on" all the time (at work and at home -- this was during the small-children years).  I needed downtime, and I had failed to account for that in my daily schedule, and so my brain was basically grabbing that time to turn off whenever I didn't have a truly urgent need.  Once I gave myself express permission to flop and tune out every day for some period of time, the urge to grab that sort of guilt-inducing hours-long escape lightened up tremendously. 

The reality is that we choose how we spend each of the 24 hours of each day.  So if you're choosing to spend those 24 hrs in a way that leaves you unsatisfied, you need to figure out why you are doing that -- what about your life is currently unsatisfying.  And then do something about it.  Everything is a choice.  Maybe your FIRE plan has been emphasizing the future over the present too much, and so you're antsy now because you don't feel you're "allowed" to have enough fun.  So change your FIRE plan -- cut back at work to build some free time into your day to just take a walk in the woods, or loosen up a little on the budget to go out once a week with friends/SO.  Or maybe you're clinging to a job that isn't satisfying because it pays a good bit.  So go look at what else is out there and figure out the pros and cons of changing.* 

Note that at the end of all this, you may not actually make any big changes.  But often reminding yourself that your current path is the best combination of pros and cons you can think of can remove some of the pressure and make you more content about your progress.

*Of course, for this to be meaningful, it has to be an objective analysis of the pros and cons -- you can't idealize one particular option as the solution to all your problems, because every option requires some version of tradeoff; every pro comes with an inherent con (I call this the "even George Clooney throws his socks on the floor" approach).  And you also have to give credit to some things you take for granted -- like, a big pro of being employed is the ability to put food on the table and a roof over your head, and that's appropriately a really high priority, you know?

FIREeh?

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Re: How to balance learning and care (good) with obsession (bad)?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2022, 12:38:18 PM »
Thanks everyone. More sex--got it! There is some wisdom in replies about finding ways to fill my time with activities that I value, but happiness isn't my chief problem. ChpBstrd seems to better understand that I'm trying to break bad habits.

In this specific case, these are habits I developed while "becoming a mustachean": reading these forums and other sites regularly, seeking out opportunities for tax efficiency, opening tax efficient accounts, exploring credit card and bank account churning to boost my income, using programs and models to understand the value of saving and compound interest and my potential time to FI. These were all good things, and I'm glad I've done them. To ChpBstrd's point, I think my challenge now is I need to stop them. Let my paychecks continue to pump high percentages into savings on autopilot, trust that I've followed the investment order correctly, and get back to doing what we do best--living life!

It's that simple I think. I have just struggled breaking out of these new habits I formed, because they are so exciting to me--because I think they will help power a more flexible, interesting life than I used to imagine. So I'll just do some basic research into breaking bad habits, and push myself into more reading and hobbies. But if anyone here has had a similar experience and specific advice, I'm still very open to any thoughts!

Money Saver 1

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Re: How to balance learning and care (good) with obsession (bad)?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2022, 04:58:22 AM »
One of the things I love about this forum is how members actively seek to avoid being "cheap." Instead, they try to be intentional about spending money on things that matter and avoiding psychological traps.

In a similar vein, I am trying to soak up all of the excellent knowledge here and deploy it everywhere I can in my own life. But I worry that I might be excessively programming my mind to always consider optimizing spend, to obsess over my net worth, and to envision a utopian future at the expense of relishing the good day in front of me.

That's the last thing I want, and it's certainly not what MMM is shooting for. But I suspect it's something others here have struggled with too. So, does anyone have any rules or tools that they have found helpful?

I've deleted the Mint app from my phone. I try to only review these things once at the end of the month. But when I'm having a bad or even just boring day I often feel pulled to look at my net worth and fantasize about it doubling over 10 years. And that's no way to live. All thoughts appreciated!

Getting glued to your phone is a common trap most people are prey to.  I forced myself into some things offline and found it liberating.  Large corps and government agencies spends billions on finding new ways to make people psychologically dependent on their phone apps and services.  Its all in the name of data collection.  I try not to contribute.