The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: ender on May 08, 2018, 05:27:28 AM
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Reading another thread had me really curious what the education demographic of this board is compared to say the overall USA education rates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States).
I've always assumed most people here have higher levels of education than average... which may be a direct factor for why so many folks have good incomes compared to median/average household incomes.
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Bachelor's degree and just became a CFP. Not sure where that falls on your poll.
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An associates and an apprenticeship. Had wanted to be an opthamologist, but life happened. So I'm blue collar instead, but still make great money for my area.
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I have a B.A. in English (go Liberal Arts!) but my husband has a PhD. Often when we have parties there will be about 20 people with Phds here and I have to remind our children that it isn't normal. My oldest looked up the statistics not long ago and was shocked to discover that less than 2% of people have a PhD. I think he was slightly more impressed with his Dad.
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I have a BSc in Computer Science, I'm really good at what I do and am paid reasonably well for it, but the degree just got me the job, not much of what I learned was really practical....I think it's a disservice to the trades to perpetuate the myth that everyone needs to go to college or university. I think people need a skill, be it engineering or plumbing. Unless you have a burning desire (and aptitude) to teach, many BA degrees are not going to get you a job. They may have 20-30 years ago, but not so much anymore. Kids need something after high school, but it doesn't have to be university. A master electrician, with a little drive, can make a great living, and it lends itself to semi-retirement. Just sayin'
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B.A. in Economics, DH M.S. in Computer Science - at least his work footed the bill for that.
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Graduated HS somewhere around the lower-middle of the class. Took some night classes in a continuing education program at the state university, before deciding it wasn't for me. I'm a voracious reader and tinkerer who prefers to study subjects/topics that interest me, rather than what someone tells me will make me "well rounded".
ETA: Mr. Dinero has 2 Bachelors and 1 Masters.
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I have a PhD in a biomedical field. Husband has a BS in biomedical science. We’ve both since left the lab. He’s now a retail manager in a business related to his favorite hobby, and I am self-employed in science publishing. Our household income is above the median, but we haven’t broken the 6-figure mark (not sure we ever will). We live in a small house in a LCOL area and have neither kids nor commutes, so we’re able to keep spending low and live very comfortably.
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Often when we have parties there will be about 20 people with Phds here and I have to remind our children that it isn't normal.
Likely in more ways than one....
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Often when we have parties there will be about 20 people with Phds here and I have to remind our children that it isn't normal.
It might not be the average, but it is your normal. Nothing wrong with that.
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Often when we have parties there will be about 20 people with Phds here and I have to remind our children that it isn't normal.
Likely in more ways than one....
It's actually pretty WEIRD (https://neuroanthropology.net/2010/07/10/we-agree-its-weird-but-is-it-weird-enough/) (as are most of us on this forum, apparently!)
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I like hearing your stories of how education did and didn't get you to where you are. My family's full of PhDs and MA degrees, but I've only a BFA in Painting from a public university and a sculpture apprenticeship. Later I looked at MFAs and PhDs, but just never went for it. Couldn't see the ROI being any better than the abysmal ratio for a Bachelor's in Art ;)
18 years later, I'm still using the degree - not so much in the mercantile sense of selling art all the time (which wasn't so interesting to me), but in the skills I use in the artwork I make for a foundation and the personal work I make in studios around the world.
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Interesting thread idea. I too am curious to see what the breakdown looks like for the average MMM forum poster/reader. I'm a Physician Assistant. I juggle two jobs in my attempt to reach FI as we don't currently have little ones but I'm not sold on RE at this stage in my life. I like what I do, but I may down-shift to working just 1-2 days a week once I've reached my financial goals.
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PTF
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Checkpoint: So far we are at just over 95% of the respondents having at least a bachelor's degree. A little different than the US breakdown :)
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I just finished up my masters in Public Administration last semester (paid for with my GI bill). I should use it to get a better position, but right now my job is so convenient and I have no motivation to seek a better one. Maybe when my children are a bit older I will start job searching. For now I really enjoy getting out of work by 1:30pm.
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Knowing degrees is an okay proxy for education but I think a key nowadays is continuous learning/training and especially certifications.
PMP, CFP, NBCT, PE, the various actuarial exams, etc. can take years to attain and may involve significant pay bumps as well as respect by your peers but wouldn't be reflected by knowing which degree a person has. They can also make higher degrees only marginally different or even unnecessary or simply an exercise in ego.
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Ooh, ooh, I get to be in the 1%! High school grad. Luckily, that's all you need to be a receptionist.
I'd be really interested to hear the story of anyone who answers "none" though - which currently has zero votes.
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I'm part of the illustrious "some college" crowd, as is my GF. I did three semesters and she did about three weeks. I work in IT and she's a specialized pro photographer. Household income should approach six figures this year for the first time.
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I wrapped up my associates degree after already being in the workforce full time at around 23/24. It’s in my field but I don’t know if it has made an actual impact in getting jobs in my field.
I’m 30 now and have already had a couple years over 200k income, and this year I’ve made about 115k so far.
While a bachelors degree could be helpful, I do take pride that I’m probably near the 1% for income earners in my age range.
Having a high income with just an associates degree is a bit different. A lot of people can openly be proud/impressed by those with higher education/degrees. Only a very small group of family and friends know of my actual financial success. It’s not something that’s polite to discuss, and we aren’t overly flashy with our money (we have a 4runner and 19 year old Camry, live full time in a 5th wheel typically). Most people would probably assume I make 1/2 to 1/3 what I do.
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Ooh, ooh, I get to be in the 1%! High school grad. Luckily, that's all you need to be a receptionist.
I'd be really interested to hear the story of anyone who answers "none" though - which currently has zero votes.
This one is particularly interesting to me because if the forum is even close to the USA demographic nearly 10% will not have high school degrees (!).
I'm .... going to guess that most people without a high school degree are not making massive amounts of money. Before someone throws out an anecdote, "most." Not "all."
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A year of college.
Then I was a vet tech back when they were just starting the degree program and could get the title if the vet you worked for verified you worked as a vet tech.
THeHusbandHalf had 2 years of college. However during his high school years, he worked various places learning woodworking, electric, plumbing, HVAC, concrete work, running big equipment - destined for blue collar work.
When I met him (and married) he was an inspector on the turnpike, then a longshoreman at the railroad's coal docks. Both things his experience were instrumental in him being hired. He also ran equipment for my Dad putting in drainage tile, mostly in farm fields.
He was laid off from the railroad, and one of the interim jobs (between the RR and his current), was driving a tanker truck. He had no official experience, but the guy doing the interview gave him the chance to try to get his CDL, and he did, first try. He loved that job, but when the oil refinery was hiring, he applied there, for the $, a better union, and the opportunities to advance.
3000 people applied for 20 positions, and at the time, 4 had to go to women, 4 to minorities, 4 to veterans (I THINK on that last one) Later, one of the interviewers told him he was their top pick. If you knew him, he just interviews so well. He reminds me of Robert Mueller, just knows his stuff.
It is a union position, and he dedicated himself to learning that whole refinery. About 15 years ago, he bid a control room job, and will retire from there in January. It is a higher paying employer, for this area, and a respected company to work for.
When he applied, there were various interviews, and 'tests' to be taken, mostly to show the applicants' understanding of things they would have to get a deeper understanding, in the year long training program.
Now the applicants have to do the same except there is an additional requirement to apply. Used to be, college wasn't even mentioned, but about 7 years ago, a college degree started being required. Any degree, I guess it just shows the applicant's willingness to stay with something.
It is THH's legacy that they now require 'a college degree or military experience' to even apply. He was instrumental in making them realize that time in the military was valuable. (It just lets them apply, they have to prove themselves in the rest of the interviewing process.) There are now several ex-Navy nuclear propulsion employees, our son was one.
I know all of that is so much more than you asked, but I wanted to show that a blue collar position does not have to restrict someone
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Results don't surprise me in the least, it's obvious this forum is full of yuppie upper middle class type people (and sometimes the oblivious attitudes that come with that). I am sure the median poster here is also well above the median income, median SAT score (would be a good poll question), etc.
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I dropped out of a Master's program. Was way too boring and I thought enough's enough with this formal education crap!
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Often when we have parties there will be about 20 people with Phds here and I have to remind our children that it isn't normal.
Likely in more ways than one....
Uh huh. I'm married to a PhD and a very large % of my coworkers/ bosses have PhDs.
My husband is awesome but working with a bunch of PhDs is ... challenging.
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holy crap that's a lot of education
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Knowing degrees is an okay proxy for education but I think a key nowadays is continuous learning/training and especially certifications.
PMP, CFP, NBCT, PE, the various actuarial exams, etc. can take years to attain and may involve significant pay bumps as well as respect by your peers but wouldn't be reflected by knowing which degree a person has. They can also make higher degrees only marginally different or even unnecessary or simply an exercise in ego.
This is very industry dependent. The only learning/training that will get me a pay bump would be getting a Masters, and even that would probably be slight.
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Have a master's, but working on a doctoral degree currently.
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None.
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I have a BS in economics and MS in crime and justice studies, if that helps.
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Just enough to be dangerous.
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The results of this poll are not surprising at all.
Ive always been surprised that this forum has not been "monetized", there is no advertising! This seems unusual in this day and age. It costs a lot of money to run this forum. I know nothing about the inner workings but always assumed it was sort of a service project by the owner of the site and helps to send some traffic to the blog which is monetized. Knowing the results of this poll makes the value of monetizing this forum even higher.
In other words MMM is likely sitting on a goldmine here.
edit to add: just noticed an REI ad at the bottom of the page, not sure if that is new or if i just never noticed it before. Well, the forum is less monetized than others. Hope MMM can use this poll to get more advertising revenue than he's already getting.
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Knowing degrees is an okay proxy for education but I think a key nowadays is continuous learning/training and especially certifications.
PMP, CFP, NBCT, PE, the various actuarial exams, etc. can take years to attain and may involve significant pay bumps as well as respect by your peers but wouldn't be reflected by knowing which degree a person has. They can also make higher degrees only marginally different or even unnecessary or simply an exercise in ego.
This is very industry dependent. The only learning/training that will get me a pay bump would be getting a Masters, and even that would probably be slight.
No doubt, it 'can' or 'may' matter in terms of pay but I was more talking about the time aspect of getting these certs. Some of them are no joke and take quite awhile to obtain, akin to a degree listed on the poll. Still, tying education to income is a logical step. I wonder what the difference is between median incomes of CPA accountants and non-CPA accountants? I bet it is significant. Where my wife works the highest step on the Master's ladder for a teacher is 85k while the highest step for a B.S. is 48k with the PhD/EdD up to 105k. I'm sure there are plenty other examples where it's the opposite and your educational difference/experience doesn't mean squat.
In my position (federal statistics), a Bachelor's with two years of experience is equivalent pay-wise to a PhD starting out or a Master's with one year of experience (and a B.S. with 1 year = Master's with 0 exp).
Actually, any professional certificate OR degree earned after starting out do not earn you a single extra penny where I am at - but they can make you highly likely to land certain promotions (or even to lateral into the exact job you want). IT certs (Cisco, Citrix, CISSP, etc.) and ones project/program management related (PMP, Scrum/agile, etc.) are very helpful right now where I work but will be a lot different or irrelevant elsewhere.
And sometimes it's not even about how much you make, it can be just to help you get in the door based on the supply/demand in the market at the time. When I was hired you pretty much had to at least have a Master's if not a PhD to land a job with my agency. That wasn't the case about 5 years later and our area hired some with Bachelor's.
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I have a BS in Accounting and a MS in Accounting along with a CPA license. I needed 150 credits to be a CPA and decided to go the MS route to get it. I actually had 140 credits for my BS and could have easily double majored but decided to go the masters route. I also need 40 hrs of CPE a year. There are quite a few stats out there about CPAs vs. non CPAs, mainly put out the AICPA the
It is easy to feel underpaid depending when compared to some, but we are more than double the median income for a family in our town and were about the same in the prior towns we lived in. I have stayed in smaller towns and it took 3 years of work to match the salary of the job offer I had in a big metro.
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The results of this poll are not surprising at all.
Ive always been surprised that this forum has not been "monetized", there is no advertising! This seems unusual in this day and age. It costs a lot of money to run this forum. I know nothing about the inner workings but always assumed it was sort of a service project by the owner of the site and helps to send some traffic to the blog which is monetized. Knowing the results of this poll makes the value of monetizing this forum even higher.
In other words MMM is likely sitting on a goldmine here.
edit to add: just noticed an REI ad at the bottom of the page, not sure if that is new or if i just never noticed it before. Well, the forum is less monetized than others. Hope MMM can use this poll to get more advertising revenue than he's already getting.
He makes $400k/yr from the blog, FYI.
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I have a BS in electrical engineering, but a person could easily do my job without a college education. One thing I sometimes feel bad about is how little of what I studied in college I've used in my career. I'm so far removed from school (and have forgotten so much of what I learned) that I doubt I could get a job as an engineer.
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An associates and an apprenticeship. Had wanted to be an opthamologist, but life happened. So I'm blue collar instead, but still make great money for my area.
I'm an ophthalmologist. It's alright, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Hell, I'm hoping to RE - there's way more stuff I'd rather be doing.
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Bachelors in Accounting/CPA. I'm CFO for a growing mid-sized business (I fell into it. The quote about luck being the biggest factor in becoming a CFO is true in my experience.). My income is low on the scale, but it will grow a lot more over time than it would if I worked in public.
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Results don't surprise me in the least, it's obvious this forum is full of yuppie upper middle class type people (and sometimes the oblivious attitudes that come with that). I am sure the median poster here is also well above the median income, median SAT score (would be a good poll question), etc.
I too want to know re: median income and SAT score. I think someone did a median income poll a while ago; I should dig it up. I think PF blogs generally attract a wealthy, well-educated crowd, for all sorts of reasons.
Also, PhD here. I originally intended to be a professor, and by the time I was dissertating decided that I did not, in fact, want to be a professor anymore; I wanted less stress and more freedom in my work. I now work in industry, using my degree to some extent, and am looking to jettison myself even farther afield from the actual work I did in grad school. The hard facts I learned are less useful now than they used to be, but the skills and experiences have been pretty useful.
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Results don't surprise me in the least, it's obvious this forum is full of yuppie upper middle class type people (and sometimes the oblivious attitudes that come with that). I am sure the median poster here is also well above the median income, median SAT score (would be a good poll question), etc.
I too want to know re: median income and SAT score. I think someone did a median income poll a while ago; I should dig it up. I think PF blogs generally attract a wealthy, well-educated crowd, for all sorts of reasons.
Also, PhD here. I originally intended to be a professor, and by the time I was dissertating decided that I did not, in fact, want to be a professor anymore; I wanted less stress and more freedom in my work. I now work in industry, using my degree to some extent, and am looking to jettison myself even farther afield from the actual work I did in grad school. The hard facts I learned are less useful now than they used to be, but the skills and experiences have been pretty useful.
The problem is I think SAT has changed at least twice in the last two decades. It went from out of 1600 to out of 2400, then back to out of 1600, but the average score increased. Something like that, I don't remember. I just know when I graduated high school one kid in my city got a 1600, then the year I graduated college, 10 kids in my previous high school had 1600's (even more in the city).
So it would be difficult comparing an SAT score from 2010 to one from 1980.
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Master’s degree acquired late in life, and two professional certifications. But most of my income was driven by my Bachelor’s degree and a specific professional certification. That certification initially almost doubled my salary, then at the end close to tripled it (with bonus).
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An associates and an apprenticeship. Had wanted to be an opthamologist, but life happened. So I'm blue collar instead, but still make great money for my area.
I'm an ophthalmologist. It's alright, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Hell, I'm hoping to RE - there's way more stuff I'd rather be doing.
It used to bother me that I didn't get to do it, but now I have what is, for me, a dream job. I get to work mostly "off" schedules, so I can go almost my full 12 hour shift without seeing or talking to anyone (I do enjoy talking to a few of the guys during shift change, but I'm mostly introverted). I also get to work on hobbies (quilting, crochet, etc) and watch movies. Kind of like a fireman job--you have your daily duties that take a few hours, but mostly there in case of emergency. The way time off is arranged is pretty awesome for when I can eventually travel again as well. I'm pretty happy with things at this point. When I think about how people-oriented being an opthalmologist is, I'm happy with my choice (although still fascinated with eyes and how they work).
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Ooh, ooh, I get to be in the 1%! High school grad. Luckily, that's all you need to be a receptionist.
I'd be really interested to hear the story of anyone who answers "none" though - which currently has zero votes.
This one is particularly interesting to me because if the forum is even close to the USA demographic nearly 10% will not have high school degrees (!).
I'm .... going to guess that most people without a high school degree are not making massive amounts of money. Before someone throws out an anecdote, "most." Not "all."
There might be a few readers who are still in high school and therefore still 'none' on this poll.
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An associates and an apprenticeship. Had wanted to be an opthamologist, but life happened. So I'm blue collar instead, but still make great money for my area.
I'm an ophthalmologist. It's alright, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Hell, I'm hoping to RE - there's way more stuff I'd rather be doing.
It used to bother me that I didn't get to do it, but now I have what is, for me, a dream job. I get to work mostly "off" schedules, so I can go almost my full 12 hour shift without seeing or talking to anyone (I do enjoy talking to a few of the guys during shift change, but I'm mostly introverted). I also get to work on hobbies (quilting, crochet, etc) and watch movies. Kind of like a fireman job--you have your daily duties that take a few hours, but mostly there in case of emergency. The way time off is arranged is pretty awesome for when I can eventually travel again as well. I'm pretty happy with things at this point. When I think about how people-oriented being an opthalmologist is, I'm happy with my choice (although still fascinated with eyes and how they work).
I've got a few gripes, but mostly the same stuff as any other MD. Namely, the stress patients expecting perfect outcomes and the looming specter of litigation. Cataract surgery has a 0.5% complication rate nationally, and mine is a touch lower. Which sounds great, save for the fact that a busy cataract surgeon does north of 500 a year. So that means you're having 2 or 3 situations come up every year where a surgery did NOT go well, and it was probably your fault. Nearly as often as the seasons change, you're dealing with a a rightfully furious/upset patient who may never see as well as they expected to. And that's not even counting the tough cases and near misses that we manage to pull out of the fire without complications. That's the biggest issue I have with the job, and it's pretty draining. Getting sued is basically a fact of life as a surgeon in the US. Statistically, that's accurate and any older doc will agree that it's a matter of when, not if. Maybe after my first lawsuit they won't be so stressful in the future? Sad to think that...
Dealing with the very elderly is also challenging sometimes. We see the oldest patients outside of oncology (and geriatrics, obviously), and you really have to be comfortable with frailty and dementia as well as impending death. Trying to treat someone who can no longer drive to appointments is tough, and it is much tougher if they have no family to drive them either. I try to avoid aggressive treatment in patients who are mentally or physically so far gone that it won't feasibly improve their quality of life, but that's a difficult call to make, and sometimes family members make it for the patient.
All that said, it's a cool job. LASIK is awesome and cataract outcomes are amazing. Most patients are thrilled with their results, and we get better all the time. I bet it would be more fun in Canada though. I'd take a pay cut if I would never hear another patient complain about cost or decline an intervention because they can't afford it. I'd also take a pay cut to live in a less litigious society. But now I'm way off topic...
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Also, PhD here. I originally intended to be a professor, and by the time I was dissertating decided that I did not, in fact, want to be a professor anymore; I wanted less stress and more freedom in my work. I now work in industry, using my degree to some extent, and am looking to jettison myself even farther afield from the actual work I did in grad school. The hard facts I learned are less useful now than they used to be, but the skills and experiences have been pretty useful.
Yep. While I loved and am proud of my dissertation research, the academic/professional language and project management skills and confidence in my ability to self-manage have been much more useful and valuable.
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Starting my MBA this fall. I don't think I've come across too many MBAs or MDs. I'm guessing it might have to do with the extravagant lifestyles that often accompany the degrees.
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Obtained my BA in Psychology at age 31, Master's in Social Work at 36, second masters in Vocational Rehabilitation at 39 then took a long distance PhD while working full-time. Never used the PhD because I loved my job in Voc. Rehab so much. Highest salary was 62k. My DH with a BA in civil engineering made 84k. We retired 6 years ago.
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Results don't surprise me in the least, it's obvious this forum is full of yuppie upper middle class type people (and sometimes the oblivious attitudes that come with that). I am sure the median poster here is also well above the median income, median SAT score (would be a good poll question), etc.
I too want to know re: median income and SAT score. I think someone did a median income poll a while ago; I should dig it up. I think PF blogs generally attract a wealthy, well-educated crowd, for all sorts of reasons.
Also, PhD here. I originally intended to be a professor, and by the time I was dissertating decided that I did not, in fact, want to be a professor anymore; I wanted less stress and more freedom in my work. I now work in industry, using my degree to some extent, and am looking to jettison myself even farther afield from the actual work I did in grad school. The hard facts I learned are less useful now than they used to be, but the skills and experiences have been pretty useful.
SAT score: 1400
Out of 1600. I hear they've changed it since the 80s
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I'm "none" in that I haven't finished high school yet. But that feels like a weird/uncomfortable/inaccurate label. I feel like I have lots of education; I just don't have any of the levels named there. So I'm imagining it means "none of the above."
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Results don't surprise me in the least, it's obvious this forum is full of yuppie upper middle class type people (and sometimes the oblivious attitudes that come with that). I am sure the median poster here is also well above the median income, median SAT score (would be a good poll question), etc.
I too want to know re: median income and SAT score. I think someone did a median income poll a while ago; I should dig it up. I think PF blogs generally attract a wealthy, well-educated crowd, for all sorts of reasons.
Also, PhD here. I originally intended to be a professor, and by the time I was dissertating decided that I did not, in fact, want to be a professor anymore; I wanted less stress and more freedom in my work. I now work in industry, using my degree to some extent, and am looking to jettison myself even farther afield from the actual work I did in grad school. The hard facts I learned are less useful now than they used to be, but the skills and experiences have been pretty useful.
SAT score: 1400
Out of 1600. I hear they've changed it since the 80s
They did for a few years (had a writing portion) but they changed it back in 2016 again to be out of 1600.
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[quote author=MrMoogle link=topic=91754.msg1999734#msg1999734 The problem is I think SAT has changed at least twice in the last two decades. It went from out of 1600 to out of 2400, then back to out of 1600, but the average score increased. Something like that, I don't remember. I just know when I graduated high school one kid in my city got a 1600, then the year I graduated college, 10 kids in my previous high school had 1600's (even more in the city).
So it would be difficult comparing an SAT score from 2010 to one from 1980.
[/quote]
You can scale the pre-1995 SAT's X/1600 scores to post-1995 X/1600 scores, I'm sure you could do the same for X/2400. Anyway my guess is the median poster here would be at the 90th percentile at a minimum.
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BSBA-Economics. I'm often the least (formally) educated at the table. Perhaps the highest ROI, though!
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MBA and BSN (Nursing). I’m a nurse exec so i bring in a great wage compared to the cost of my education. Especially considering I entered the field with a cheap associates degree. All of my degrees are from affordable (relatively) schools. So a bit of smarts, strategic career mgmt, and here I am.
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PhD scientist. Would be much closer to FIRE (theoretically, assuming I went to work at the same place) if I had stopped at a M.S.
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BS, MS and PhD in STEM fields and work as a faculty member/researcher at a University.
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Three semesters of university. Mostly hated it because I had no idea what I wanted to do there so it seemed pointless. Took a couple of entry level accounting courses in my early thirties (paid for by my employer) and that has served me very well. I would say that, income wise, I’ve overachieved for my level of education; however, based on my potential for academic success/high income, I’ve underacheieved. It used to be something that bothered me, but I am pretty happy with where I’ve landed.
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I have a Bachelor of Engineering, with honours, and a Graduate Diploma in Education. My wife is the same. She started a PhD, but we went back for a third child and she couldn't be bothered with the low pay (grant money) and 3 kids.
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I have, umm, a lot, but thankfully need all of them for my current job.
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I have a Bachelors in Science (double majored: Neurobiology and Ecology), I used the science just not the specializations (Agriculture). My current role requires a bachelors degree in science or related field so there is that.
For my SAT scores (taken in the late 1990s) I don't remember exactly(between 1000 and 1200 I think), but they were not particularly impressive. Very middle of the road for someone going to college (but not an impressive college). I was good at high school (which is just do work and pass) but for college I was mostly a B level student in things I was good at and a D level student in things that I wasn't (calculus, chemists). I had a retake a lot of classes. I looked at getting my PhD but between not know what to study and my student loan debt (LOTS), I decided getting a job was a better choice. I think it was a great choice for me!
DH had a Bachelors of Science (Education). He used it a few years and decided he hated teaching. So he went back for an Associates in Biotech. That is the degree he uses everyday (lab technician). Great decision for him. So the poll wouldn't be so good for him and is misrepresents what degree he is using.
Neither one of us will ever break six figures with our own income. Together we managed to break it two years ago. So we are not the high earners that people say make up the majority of the forum. We will be retired before we ever make the big bucks. Let the investments do the heavy lifting.
LV
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PhD in a relatively applied quant social sciences field and I added to that self-taught programming and have transitioned into one of the few data scientists currently in my field, which has proven to be pretty lucrative to this point. I was kind of misled when it came to getting the PhD because I interned at a small boutique consulting firm and all of them were PhDs and they made it sound like if you wanted to do consulting it was necessary. A masters would have been fine, but I also got the PhD for free, so came out of school with no debt and a much stronger quant background than I would have had if I left after my masters.
I don’t think I ever took the SAT, I took the ACT and I never did very well, I think I got a 28, but I also never took any prep courses or even prepared for it. In HS I was kind of going through the motions. I did prep for the GRE and I got a 1340 (old scoring).
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I put some college as I'm a college dropout. But I'm also an autodidact (does that sounds more intelligent than self taught?) and have thousands of hours in self study both in my field and other areas of interest. I put in over 2000 doing the big technical cert that got me into the big leagues in my career.
The follow on question should be do you think the education was valuable and helpful. For me most of the structured learning I did was a MASSIVE waste of time and energy based on the output. Not that there wasn't anything useful from it, just that I'd have been better off on my own with some minimal help asking questions on specific points.
The self study stuff, DEFINITELY worth it. Both for knowledge/life enrichment and career wise.
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I never took the SAT, but I got a 32 on the ACT in high school, which apparently is 98th percentile? That can't be right. I'm kind of an idiot.
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I don’t think I ever took the SAT, I took the ACT and I never did very well, I think I got a 28, but I also never took any prep courses or even prepared for it. In HS I was kind of going through the motions. I did prep for the GRE and I got a 1340 (old scoring).
I'm sure you were just being modest, but this is what I'm talking about in regards to obliviousness on this forum. 28 ACT is 90th percentile, seems pretty damn good to me esp without any prep. Likely this person is in the top 10% in terms of intelligence. That's a great advantage for being able to FIRE decades early. Doesn't quite jibe with the attitude I see often here of "well anyone can FIRE at age 50 (or whatever)".
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I don’t think I ever took the SAT, I took the ACT and I never did very well, I think I got a 28, but I also never took any prep courses or even prepared for it. In HS I was kind of going through the motions. I did prep for the GRE and I got a 1340 (old scoring).
I'm sure you were just being modest, but this is what I'm talking about in regards to obliviousness on this forum. 28 ACT is 90th percentile, seems pretty damn good to me esp without any prep. Likely this person is in the top 10% in terms of intelligence. That's a great advantage for being able to FIRE decades early. Doesn't quite jibe with the attitude I see often here of "well anyone can FIRE at age 50 (or whatever)".
I honestly didn't/don't know. I know in my HS 28 was about average, so I figured it was a bit above average, but didn't know it was so high. I had tons of friends that got 34s and 35s. Did the %s change? That seems like a small range for the final 8 possible points on the ACT.
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For me- two BS degrees, one in nursing. So, I'm a BS, BSN, RN.
Husband has a masters, and a couple professional licenses, so he can use lots of letters after his name if he feels like it.
Four degrees between the two of us... god we've spent a lot of time in school!
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Panda, I have the PhD. I should not say that I haven’t used it because a year after retiring a university asked me to teach a class which I have been happily doing for 5 years now. Just the right amount of work without being too much.
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Panda, I have the PhD. I should not say that I haven’t used it because a year after retiring a university asked me to teach a class which I have been happily doing for 5 years now. Just the right amount of work without being too much.
You mentioned long distance though... other than some schools in the UK I'm not aware of any place that has long distance programs at the PhD level. Generally they seem to be limited to EdDs and in my own field it's a mixed bag of opinions of how much could be done long distance. Obviously it's gotten a lot easier since broadband internet became common, but there is still a lot of stigma associated with it
To add to this, I worked with a guy with four PhDs, all long distance, all from schools you've never heard of and probably weren't accredited, at least I couldn't find accreditation information on them. In fact, I don't think the schools still existed when I worked with him. He wanted everyone to call him "Dr." but I never did. I think one person did, and I'm not sure if it was respectful or sarcastic. The "Dr." was an idiot who would throw it into conversations so you would listen to him.
Now, there are plenty of good distance PhD programs:
https://www.online-phd-programs.org/top-online-phd-programs/
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There has been a great deal of work that links long term planning/short term sacrifices with intelligence. Just spend some time on the wikipedia page for delayed gratification. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_gratification (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_gratification)
This board should be heavily skewed - even the people who didn't get much formal education are probably well above average intelligence.
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BS in geology with minor in GIS. I went to school as a very non-trad student and adroitly avoided borrowing any money (went to a cheap podunk state college and applied for every grant and scholarship I could find).
I spent a few years working in the field mapping surficial geology, and another few years doing GIS for an archaeological consulting company, then got laid off that job when the projects dried up.
Not much work in geology or GIS these days, from what I can observe. The market seems saturated with graduates and the pay is not great. I'm now working in a different tech field dealing with utility data. Pays fairly well and is easy peasy compared to what I went to school for. I think I have pretty good advancement opportunity at my current workplace too. I'm working in a specialized process there that you can only learn by doing it right there.
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There has been a great deal of work that links long term planning/short term sacrifices with intelligence. Just spend some time on the wikipedia page for delayed gratification. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_gratification (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_gratification)
This board should be heavily skewed - even the people who didn't get much formal education are probably well above average intelligence.
So, buying this house 37 years ago, always remodeling, and knowing it will take another 10 years until it's done, and we're both aware of that, means we're above average intelligence?
If you say so!
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I got a Ph.D. Part of the reason I haven't retired yet is that I felt obligated to spend at least as much time using my degree as I did earning it.
But that's not going to happen, at least not if you count both college and graduate school together.
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I'm just a cook in the navy, but I did some college and I'm looking at going back soon with a focus on supply chain management. I got a 25 on the act in high school.
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Obtained my BA in Psychology at age 31, Master's in Social Work at 36, second masters in Vocational Rehabilitation at 39 then took a long distance PhD while working full-time. Never used the PhD because I loved my job in Voc. Rehab so much. Highest salary was 62k. My DH with a BA in civil engineering made 84k. We retired 6 years ago.
Whose the PhD through? Long distance PhD's are generally a warning sign, but for some fields they are able to do hybrid programs these days.
What would it be a warning sign of? I know a few people who gained their PhD's through the Open University and they all seem to be very competent to me. I have to say that the Open University generally has a very good reputation in my country, they get high rankings. This might be different in other countries.
The only difference between 'regular' PhD's and distance learning PhD's is generally the type of students: instead of being in their 20s and living the high-stress grad student life, they were people who had worked in the profession for decades and were either retired or working parttime, and wanted to thoroughly research a pet project. Doing this through a formal program instead of just researching on their own 'for fun' gave them better access to resources like library facilities and people to discuss their work with. I know most universities offer similar PhD-programs for people not formally connected to the university.
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College dropout, with a better edumacation than most people with a BA/BS/MS
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It's not really that surprising to me that this forum has more than 50% of the folks having graduate degrees (or further).
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28 ACT is 90th percentile, seems pretty damn good to me esp without any prep. Likely this person is in the top 10% in terms of intelligence.
Haha Hoho, you think test scores and intelligence are strongly linked?
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College dropout, with a better edumacation than most people with a BA/BS/MS
lol
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28 ACT is 90th percentile, seems pretty damn good to me esp without any prep. Likely this person is in the top 10% in terms of intelligence.
Haha Hoho, you think test scores and intelligence are strongly linked?
They kind of are. In psychological measurement anything with a correlation above 0.8 is typically considered equivalent to a reliability coefficient (0.70 could even be argued).
In Study 1, we used the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth 1979.
Measures of g were extracted from the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery and
correlated with SAT scores of 917 participants. The resulting correlation was .82 (.86 corrected
for nonlinearity).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15147489
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I'm just a cook in the navy, but I did some college and I'm looking at going back soon with a focus on supply chain management. I got a 25 on the act in high school.
From what I've seen, anything in the Navy is respected by employers
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28 ACT is 90th percentile, seems pretty damn good to me esp without any prep. Likely this person is in the top 10% in terms of intelligence.
Haha Hoho, you think test scores and intelligence are strongly linked?
They kind of are. In psychological measurement anything with a correlation above 0.8 is typically considered equivalent to a reliability coefficient (0.70 could even be argued).
The key distinction here is to remember that correlation applies to data distributions, not to individual data points. So while there may be a general trend between intelligence and education or income (with causation potentially being bidirectional or absent), this does not mean you know anything about any particular person.
For example, I think Bill Gates is pretty pretty rich, and he doesn't have a college degree. The observation that college graduates typically earn more than non-graduates is still a valid correlation when looking at America as a whole, but education probably shouldn't be used to judge the income (or intelligence) of any particular individual.
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The key distinction here is to remember that correlation applies to data distributions, not to individual data points. So while there may be a general trend between intelligence and education or income (with causation potentially being bidirectional or absent), this does not mean you know anything about any particular person.
For example, I think Bill Gates is pretty pretty rich, and he doesn't have a college degree. The observation that college graduates typically earn more than non-graduates is still a valid correlation when looking at America as a whole, but education probably shouldn't be used to judge the income (or intelligence) of any particular individual.
But... if I do this how will I generalize my anecdotal experiences into universal experiences that everyone obviously has (or is clearly an idiot)!!
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Some college. I finished with over 120 credit hours. I hate writing research papers, and the senior seminar class required a 20 page research paper. I attempted that class 4 or 5 times before I realized I had to stop before I hurt myself from the stress. So I stopped officially two classes short of my degree: the senior seminar, and one upper division liberal studies class.
If I could do it over again, I would have made sure to get my associates at least, but at the time I knew I was going to get my bachelors, so why worry about the associates?
Not having the degree has hurt some on the confidence level, and for some jobs that require a 4 year degree, any degree, even if it's unrelated.
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28 ACT is 90th percentile, seems pretty damn good to me esp without any prep. Likely this person is in the top 10% in terms of intelligence.
Haha Hoho, you think test scores and intelligence are strongly linked?
They kind of are. In psychological measurement anything with a correlation above 0.8 is typically considered equivalent to a reliability coefficient (0.70 could even be argued).
The key distinction here is to remember that correlation applies to data distributions, not to individual data points. So while there may be a general trend between intelligence and education or income (with causation potentially being bidirectional or absent), this does not mean you know anything about any particular person.
For example, I think Bill Gates is pretty pretty rich, and he doesn't have a college degree. The observation that college graduates typically earn more than non-graduates is still a valid correlation when looking at America as a whole, but education probably shouldn't be used to judge the income (or intelligence) of any particular individual.
Oh absolutely, that's why there is measurement error. Correlations are meant to be used to describe samples of individuals and the relationship two things within that sample have to one another. It was never meant to be used to describe specific people from that distribution. But the original statement was implying that placement tests and IQ tests weren't strongly linked. I simply provided evidence to suggest they were.
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Some college. I finished with over 120 credit hours. I hate writing research papers, and the senior seminar class required a 20 page research paper. I attempted that class 4 or 5 times before I realized I had to stop before I hurt myself from the stress. So I stopped officially two classes short of my degree: the senior seminar, and one upper division liberal studies class.
If I could do it over again, I would have made sure to get my associates at least, but at the time I knew I was going to get my bachelors, so why worry about the associates?
Not having the degree has hurt some on the confidence level, and for some jobs that require a 4 year degree, any degree, even if it's unrelated.
Very similar situation here, though my confidence is higher because of it. I've only had it take me out of the running for a handful of jobs where the recruiter reached out to me based on my LinkedIn profile, and we cordially ended the call. Any job I've been interested in, it has not been an issue, even where it's part of the "requirements" in the job posting/description/requisition.
After a certain point in your career, experience > degree.
I'm sure this varies by industry, and STEM will be an area where formal schooling is the norm. That would also explain the high percentage of STEM employed forum members vs. the education level on these boards.
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Obtained my BA in Psychology at age 31, Master's in Social Work at 36, second masters in Vocational Rehabilitation at 39 then took a long distance PhD while working full-time. Never used the PhD because I loved my job in Voc. Rehab so much. Highest salary was 62k. My DH with a BA in civil engineering made 84k. We retired 6 years ago.
Whose the PhD through? Long distance PhD's are generally a warning sign, but for some fields they are able to do hybrid programs these days.
What would it be a warning sign of? I know a few people who gained their PhD's through the Open University and they all seem to be very competent to me. I have to say that the Open University generally has a very good reputation in my country, they get high rankings. This might be different in other countries.
The only difference between 'regular' PhD's and distance learning PhD's is generally the type of students: instead of being in their 20s and living the high-stress grad student life, they were people who had worked in the profession for decades and were either retired or working parttime, and wanted to thoroughly research a pet project. Doing this through a formal program instead of just researching on their own 'for fun' gave them better access to resources like library facilities and people to discuss their work with. I know most universities offer similar PhD-programs for people not formally connected to the university.
I think there is a big Europe-US difference here. In the US, the Open University isn't a thing. I'd never even heard of it until I started chatting with a Welsh acquaintance who was taking OU classes, and I've heard of a LOT of universities worldwide. It's just not on our radar here. I agree that it seems to have a very good reputation and to be a good, rigorous school, and I'm sad we don't recognize it as a resource here.
Distance learning in the US is heavily associated with non-rigorous, un-or-non-standardly-accredited, for-profit scam universities. This doesn't mean that some universities don't offer distance classes -- they do. However, I've never actually heard of a distance PhD program in the US; the vast, vast majority are in-person. I'd be wary of someone who came to me looking for a job with a distance PhD, just as I'd be wary of someone who came to me looking for a job with a University of Phoenix degree. I'd want to see the abilities demonstrated more rigorously than I would for someone with a degree that I would trust. (I recognize that this is possibly shitty, but it is nonetheless 100% how I would go about it; if I can't trust the degree, I need the ability to be demonstrated more thoroughly than I would otherwise.)
Legitimate distance programs here would be more typical of a community college or small liberal arts college, and would often serve non-traditional students -- the type of students you mentioned above, except going for their AA/BA instead of the PhD. Notably, almost any school that offers a legitimate and reputable distance program offers programs in-person as well.
(Also, I should note that all of the above applies to academic fields, not professional fields. I'm not as familiar with graduate programs in law, social work, or medicine, and can't speak to them -- I wouldn't be surprised if a distance PhD in social work, for example, was much more likely to be a good, rigorous degree than a distance PhD in materials science. So many folks who go for professional degrees are already working in their field, and they need to be able to keep working while they go to school; it makes sense that good distance degree programs will develop there first.)
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I got a Ph.D. Part of the reason I haven't retired yet is that I felt obligated to spend at least as much time using my degree as I did earning it.
But that's not going to happen, at least not if you count both college and graduate school together.
When you put it that way...my husband has done his time. Barely
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I was in my 40's and did not want to quit a great job that I loved which is why I did the distance program. Our local university right now has a MS in social work as do many others. It is coming much more common. Also I didn't do it for job reasons but because I love school and learning. I thoroughly enjoyed the process. I also had to fly in to where they were located and defend my dissertation to obtain my degree.
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Some college. I finished with over 120 credit hours. I hate writing research papers, and the senior seminar class required a 20 page research paper. I attempted that class 4 or 5 times before I realized I had to stop before I hurt myself from the stress. So I stopped officially two classes short of my degree: the senior seminar, and one upper division liberal studies class.
If I could do it over again, I would have made sure to get my associates at least, but at the time I knew I was going to get my bachelors, so why worry about the associates?
Not having the degree has hurt some on the confidence level, and for some jobs that require a 4 year degree, any degree, even if it's unrelated.
Very similar situation here, though my confidence is higher because of it. I've only had it take me out of the running for a handful of jobs where the recruiter reached out to me based on my LinkedIn profile, and we cordially ended the call. Any job I've been interested in, it has not been an issue, even where it's part of the "requirements" in the job posting/description/requisition.
After a certain point in your career, experience > degree.
I'm sure this varies by industry, and STEM will be an area where formal schooling is the norm. That would also explain the high percentage of STEM employed forum members vs. the education level on these boards.
For the most part yes. I work with a number of folks in facilities, and they have told me that increasingly, companies are looking for degrees. That doesn't mean they aren't employable, just that there are fewer companies willing to look at them. These are men in their 50's. One of them managed to get a job at a big tech company anyway!
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Obtained my BA in Psychology at age 31, Master's in Social Work at 36, second masters in Vocational Rehabilitation at 39 then took a long distance PhD while working full-time. Never used the PhD because I loved my job in Voc. Rehab so much. Highest salary was 62k. My DH with a BA in civil engineering made 84k. We retired 6 years ago.
Whose the PhD through? Long distance PhD's are generally a warning sign, but for some fields they are able to do hybrid programs these days.
What would it be a warning sign of? I know a few people who gained their PhD's through the Open University and they all seem to be very competent to me. I have to say that the Open University generally has a very good reputation in my country, they get high rankings. This might be different in other countries.
The only difference between 'regular' PhD's and distance learning PhD's is generally the type of students: instead of being in their 20s and living the high-stress grad student life, they were people who had worked in the profession for decades and were either retired or working parttime, and wanted to thoroughly research a pet project. Doing this through a formal program instead of just researching on their own 'for fun' gave them better access to resources like library facilities and people to discuss their work with. I know most universities offer similar PhD-programs for people not formally connected to the university.
I think there is a big Europe-US difference here. In the US, the Open University isn't a thing. I'd never even heard of it until I started chatting with a Welsh acquaintance who was taking OU classes, and I've heard of a LOT of universities worldwide. It's just not on our radar here. I agree that it seems to have a very good reputation and to be a good, rigorous school, and I'm sad we don't recognize it as a resource here.
Distance learning in the US is heavily associated with non-rigorous, un-or-non-standardly-accredited, for-profit scam universities. This doesn't mean that some universities don't offer distance classes -- they do. However, I've never actually heard of a distance PhD program in the US; the vast, vast majority are in-person. I'd be wary of someone who came to me looking for a job with a distance PhD, just as I'd be wary of someone who came to me looking for a job with a University of Phoenix degree. I'd want to see the abilities demonstrated more rigorously than I would for someone with a degree that I would trust. (I recognize that this is possibly shitty, but it is nonetheless 100% how I would go about it; if I can't trust the degree, I need the ability to be demonstrated more thoroughly than I would otherwise.)
Legitimate distance programs here would be more typical of a community college or small liberal arts college, and would often serve non-traditional students -- the type of students you mentioned above, except going for their AA/BA instead of the PhD. Notably, almost any school that offers a legitimate and reputable distance program offers programs in-person as well.
(Also, I should note that all of the above applies to academic fields, not professional fields. I'm not as familiar with graduate programs in law, social work, or medicine, and can't speak to them -- I wouldn't be surprised if a distance PhD in social work, for example, was much more likely to be a good, rigorous degree than a distance PhD in materials science. So many folks who go for professional degrees are already working in their field, and they need to be able to keep working while they go to school; it makes sense that good distance degree programs will develop there first.)
There are plenty of distance PhDs being awarded by universities like University of Phoenix, Capella, Walden, etc. I love distance learning, still engage in it all the time on things like Udemy, Coursera, EDx, etc. and I think for intro courses and the like it has amazing potential, I just don't see how you can replicate the environment of a PhD cohort and class online. The time in the lab, the large research projects, the hours in seminars spent deeply discussing and critiquing peer-reviewed journal articles. I just don't see how it's possible, but hopefully the people that did it got a good ROI. I've never interacted with any of them in my career, but I know they exist, I see them at conferences all the time.
Plus, I would never have paid for a PhD in the first place, the ROI just isn't there. Some of those programs are 30-40k/yr for 5-6 years......
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There are plenty of distance PhDs being awarded by universities like University of Phoenix, Capella, Walden, etc. I love distance learning, still engage in it all the time on things like Udemy, Coursera, EDx, etc. and I think for intro courses and the like it has amazing potential, I just don't see how you can replicate the environment of a PhD cohort and class online. The time in the lab, the large research projects, the hours in seminars spent deeply discussing and critiquing peer-reviewed journal articles. I just don't see how it's possible, but hopefully the people that did it got a good ROI. I've never interacted with any of them in my career, but I know they exist, I see them at conferences all the time.
Plus, I would never have paid for a PhD in the first place, the ROI just isn't there. Some of those programs are 30-40k/yr for 5-6 years......
There are plenty of distance PhDs being awarded by respectable universities... now. 20-30 years ago there were probably some good ones, but there were also plenty of ones that weren't good. There were places like Middle Kentucky Paper Mill who were giving PhDs in order to sell more paper. When you get a resume that has "Dr." in the name, but doesn't mention the school or their dissertation(s), you start to worry. I don't know how my previous company thought he was a good hire.
That's why online colleges have had the troubles they do in the US.
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I have a PhD in biomedical science (biology + computer science), wife is an MBA. I left academics as soon as I could and now work in industry (tech). On track to retire by 40.
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BS in Electrical Engineering for me and my wife has a professional degree, Doctor of Optometry
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A few thoughts:
I have several degrees (BA, Master, a Certificate, and working on a 2nd Master)
I do think that there is value in higher education, but I wouldn't think less of someone for not having one. For me, had I not gone to college, I would definitely not have found my way into a career that I love, and having the education was a key part of it.
I would not trust a for-profit university with a single dime, and if I were hiring people I would be skeptical of degrees from those places (mostly because - why wouldn't you go to a public university or a private NFP university?). Distance degrees, however, are fine. Most major public universities have them, and I think its a great way to get an education if you aren't in a city with a public university.