Author Topic: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?  (Read 19671 times)

Poeirenta

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How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« on: February 17, 2016, 10:16:42 AM »
We are both rural and off-grid here at the DD Ranch and I'm curious if there are others like us here on the forum (aside from Rural, of course!). The longer I am on here, the more I see places where the conventional MMM wisdom doesn't quite fit. Not really a problem so much as an interesting observation. A few examples:

Our home insurance is expensive, which i had assumed was related to our wildfire risk but is apparently due to the fact that we are not connected to the electrical grid. This makes no sense given the fact that our power never goes out, but maybe the idea of a personal power plant freaks the risk managers out?

We keep collision on our vehicles because of the likelihood of hitting a large animal. Still saving money with Geico.

Since we live up in the hills, public transport is not an option, and a 4wd or awd vehicle is non-negotiable (and even with them we had to hike up our mile long driveway several times this winter!). We carpool as much as possible since we both work in the same town 8 miles from home. Even if I liked biking, which I don't, the 2000' elevation gain would be a hell of a bike commute!

Costco is 90 miles away, along with the specialist medical providers. You better believe every doctor appt. is followed by a costco run!

So as you see we are constrained in some typical areas of MMM optimization, and I'd love to hear from others in a similar situation to compare notes and maybe learn some tricks I haven't thought of!

(And yes, while we do have enough land for livestock, we're not convinced we want to be the ones owning them...we can get all sorts of farm products locally without having to feed, water, protect, and manage the manure of said critters)

RetiredAt63

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2016, 11:38:32 AM »
Also rural.  All the obvious life factors - well and septic system, high cost of electricity, no public transport, city an hour's drive (smaller towns are 5-10 minutes) away.  Basically this means activities/errands are planned (if i am going someplace anyway, I want to get as much done as possible on one drive) and the weather is a decisive factor in planning outside activities (home or away).  So of course there are trade-offs, some things are easier or less expensive, others are harder or more expensive, than the same thing for a city dweller.

I'm not off-grid but I know of people who are.  A local paper just had an article about an off-grid farm family.

jfisher3

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2016, 11:47:02 AM »
My wife and I are closing on our dream retirement home on Friday. It's... not terribly Mustachian either. I'm moving an hour away from work, further away from everything else (grocery stores, etc etc), it has a giant pool, a heated and cooled detached workshop, all on 2 acres.

The way I justify this luxury weakness is self-provision as much as possible. I won't be able to talk my wife into going 'off the grid', but in a few years (after paying off some debt crises) we're going to get some solar panels, and for this area, some turbines.

We're going to grow our own food... there are a few existing fruit trees on the property, plenty of water here in north-eastern NC, water table is 4 feet from ground level, with a well point for property irrigation... so 'free' water with raised beds doing square foot farming, using some permaculture techniques.

We're going to raise chickens for meat and profit. There's a large local market for fresh eggs. I've already done the math, but we'll be raising and slaughtering 20-40 chickens at a time, with 20 laying at all times. Profit from eggs are not factored into my FIRE calculations, but it makes me feel 'safer' in some assumptions that have been made.

I now have a work shop so I can start selling hand-crafted furniture/decoration/etc stuff both locally and through on-line stores. This is going to be my FIRE hobby when I retire in 13 years at the ripe old age of 40.

Those three things alone (cheap meat, free veggies) will off-set a lot of the anti-mustachian things that involve moving this far out.

I do not want to raise anything bigger than chickens, for the same reasons you listed :P It's too much work for something I would not enjoy otherwise.

We're also pretty far south, so instead of a 4x4, I have a cheap, very fuel efficient little FWD foreign car (Mazda 3 gets 45+MPG) that is good enough for the snow we get here. Maybe look into something like an Elio (if they ever come out) for driving during the non-snowy season?

Also, does your electric company let you 'sell-back' extra electricity that you produce? I know in NC I can use either source of electricity, and if I put out more than I take in, I get a check. Even if not, it might be worth being "plugged in" with the main breaker off just to off-set your insurance premium?

I see a well and septic system as a bonus, because it's cheaper than dealing with city utilities.


katsiki

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2016, 12:23:36 PM »
Wow, jfisher3, I am jealous!  That sounds incredible.  When you start selling furniture, let us know.  :)

MrsDinero

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2016, 12:42:00 PM »
We are rural but not off grid.  6.5 acres, septic tank, well water, oil heat. We are working towards more self sustainability but we still far from it.  The nearest "big" town is a university town about 15 minutes away.  This town has the big grocery store, yoga studio, walmart and a decent regional hospital with doctor offices.  Most of our neighbors are on different degrees of self-reliance with 1 neighbor that is probably completely off grid.

We have been living in our house less than 1 year so this is the first year I will be working on our garden.  I'm starting with some container gardening and plan to move to outdoors as my confidence grows.

We are planning to raise chickens because we go through a lot of eggs in our house and they should pay for themselves pretty quickly.  We aren't planning on selling however we have some neighbors that we will be able to trade with. 

In someways living in a rural area makes it easier to live a MMM lifestyle, because we don't live near a lot of stores (I miss Target), take out (I miss good chinese food), or fast food.  Nothing delivers to our house, except mail and UPS.  If you're going to run to the store (15-20 minute drive), it is going to be for more than a gallon of milk.

Because we both work from home we can easily go days without driving. Honestly if Mr. D didn't have to travel for work and the airport wasn't an hour 1 way from home we would be a 1 car family.

We are just now working on creating a stash of non-perishables in our basement:  rice, dried beans, quinoa, etc.  We are also planning on buying a freezer for the basement so we can buy meat in bulk from a local organic farm and I can do more bulk cooking. 

Gone Fishing

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2016, 12:46:50 PM »
We're rural, on grid. 

Dig into your insurance policy, see if you can increase deductibles, and/or drop silly things like "refrigerated goods insurance".  Not sure if you have a mortgage or not, but if not, you can always choose to self insure if you really want.  Self insuring makes a lot of sense if you have a small house that can easily be rebuilt from locally sourced materials-pretty much the mantra of off-grid types.

Do you hunt and eat those animals likely to collide with your vehicle?  Wild game can eliminate a LOT of grocery expense if done properly (KISS) and comes without all the risks you mentioned around raising livestock.

The commute actually doesn't sound that bad considering the carpooling.  Are chains or studded tires legal in your area?  Either one can significantly enhance the performance of a 2WD vehicle to point of bringing them nearly on par with a 4WD shod with all seasons.

No doubt off grid homesteads are expensive to get online, but you should have some pretty significant savings on utility bills.  Have you tallied up what it would all cost if you were on-grid?  Might make you feel a bit better about your situation!   

Kaydedid

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2016, 01:21:12 PM »
Not currently rural, but have close relatives very sparsely populated areas.  Planning to move farther out in the next 5 years or so, although not quite as far as you, dusty dog!

Do your home insurance rates have anything to do with being so far from a fire station or hydrant?  I know folks around here that are just a little too far out get hit hard on this one.  Don't know if there's any negotiating to be done if it's the case, but worth looking into.

If done right, the food costs are a LOT better than in the city.  Growing/preserving fruits and veggies, hunting, and buying staples a few times a year in bulk really keep it cheap. 

We did the ROI for our cousins on some beeves and chickens a few years ago, and like you mentioned, the time involvement along with the relatively small savings didn't make it worth it.  They ended up trading fresh, canned, and dried produce with a neighbor for most of their meat and eggs.

We ran the numbers, and living out of town is going to be significantly more expensive, even with proper lifestyle changes.  So many young people we've met talk about moving onto a place and going off-grid to save money, but the opposite seems to be true around here.

Erica

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2016, 01:52:26 PM »
Good for you

We are now seeking land to live on in a small offgrid town about 45 min from here. Try to live off the land to a great degree. It is equally 45 min to work but I work two 18 hr shifts twice a week so it isn't too bad. The only thing connected to the grid is landline and internet with the same small phone company so we are going to pay someone monthly to have that placed in their name. An older fellow who is fairly poor and maybe even have him send our cashiers check off each month so he knows it's being paid on time. This will help keep our anonymity. Then we'll keep almost all of our cash on the property. Mail is 3x per week which isn't great for selling on Ebay but it will have to do.

We will grow our own food (and buy) cycle alot more. The elevation is 2800 feet so it should be fairly easy to get in shape. Right now i am suppose to be getting ready to drive up so we can cycle. Many hardcore cyclists ride up to that town. It is 25 minutes in between two towns which aren't that great for groceries and what you need but it will due. It is a very active, close knit town with more to do than the nearby cities due to the American River, other rivers, hiking, whitewater rafting and such. Abundant Recreation which is what we're seeking. Work wise it will cost a little more due to gas with my husband driving down the hill to work.  I am paid per mile so it's about equal.

We will first have a tiny home cabin on it to live in and build a garage then a house. All will be very small buildings so they cannot be seen well from the sky. Problem is not much comes up for sale in this small town so it could be a few years or more. We just want to live in peace, and privacy. The more the powers that be know, they more you pay out $$ somehow. The towns high speed internet is excellent. The town gets together once a week for a potluck, there is an active church and a bar, store, post office, cemetaries, fire department. Not much really but the town has more to do than any town of that size I've came across. Only 200 people though...very diverse bunch. Yet the majority honor privacy so that is what most of the townsfolk have in common. Most mind their own business overall, too.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 02:09:17 PM by Outdoorsygal »

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2016, 02:03:30 PM »
We're semi-rural -- 2 acres, in the mountains, no city/county utilities other than electric.  USPS delivers mail, FedEx and UPS deliver too.  Public transportation doesn't exist, and it snows a lot, so 4WD/AWD vehicles are a necessity.  On a private driveway shared with a couple of neighbors, and we collectively plow it & share the asphalt maintenance.

Heat - propane + pellet stove.  House is very well insulated, so costs are low.
Air conditioning - none, don't need it.  Open/close windows as necessary in summer. 
Water - domestic well in the yard.
Sewer - septic tank.
Internet - DSL.  Nothing else available, except satellite ($$$).
TV - antenna + streaming.

Homeowners insurance is more expensive for this house vs. where we lived before, but seemed proportionate to the size of the house and fire danger (moved from suburbia into a forested area). 

We've talked about building a greenhouse for a vegetable garden, but haven't done anything about it yet.  Can't grow edible items here otherwise -- growing season is too short, and deer/rabbits/bears will eat anything like fruit trees.

Erica

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2016, 02:12:48 PM »
That is one thing which surprised me about this website, the philosophies and such, that going off grid wasn't a goal for most people.

The second was how little cash is kept onhand versus what they've actually accumulated. I know to invest, it can bring in more $ so that is understandable

RetiredAt63

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2016, 02:39:29 PM »
Going off grid is expensive, at least here.  Not a lot of sunlight in the winter (cloudy a fair bit, and short days).  People who go off-grid usually have a combination of solar and wind.  If I bought a rural property and Ontario Hydro was going to charge me $40,000 - $50,000 to run in power (not unheard of) then I would go off-grid.  If we get really good battery storage I can see a lot more solar down the line.

One advantage of begin in farm country, as opposed to forested areas, is that there are not that many trees to bring down power lines, and Hydro knows that electricity is essential to the farmers (milking) so even though lots have generators, it is still a priority.  I see crews every summer trimming back trees to power lines are safe.

Not quite sure what you mean about cash on hand?  In bad weather I want some cash, but again here (Canada) cash transactions are a very small part of commerce.  When people are paying for their double-double with a tap card, even small amounts of cash aren't needed often.

That is one thing which surprised me about this website, the philosophies and such, that going off grid wasn't a goal for most people.

The second was how little cash is kept onhand versus what they've actually accumulated. I know to invest, it can bring in more $ so that is understandable

Poeirenta

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2016, 02:59:57 PM »
Thanks for the conversation all...it's a nice diversion for a sick day! Let's see if I can get this quoting thing figured out...

Basically this means activities/errands are planned (if i am going someplace anyway, I want to get as much done as possible on one drive) and the weather is a decisive factor in planning outside activities (home or away).

Absolutely. We get irritated whenever we forget something, because as someone else said, we're not making the drive for a gallon of milk, or any other single thing, especially if the roads are bad. Luckily we are on a school bus route, so the roads are usually plowed quickly.

Do your home insurance rates have anything to do with being so far from a fire station or hydrant?  I know folks around here that are just a little too far out get hit hard on this one.  Don't know if there's any negotiating to be done if it's the case, but worth looking into.

It's part of the equation for sure, but we are in a fire district, so that should help. No reason not to have another conversation with the ins. co. though. We are also insuring outbuildings and tools, which I may reevaluate. We don't have a mortgage, but neither would I want to self insure given the damage of the past two fire seasons in our area. Seen too much misery from lack of insurance.

Do you hunt and eat those animals likely to collide with your vehicle?  Wild game can eliminate a LOT of grocery expense if done properly (KISS) and comes without all the risks you mentioned around raising livestock.

The commute actually doesn't sound that bad considering the carpooling.  Are chains or studded tires legal in your area?  Either one can significantly enhance the performance of a 2WD vehicle to point of bringing them nearly on par with a 4WD shod with all seasons.

No doubt off grid homesteads are expensive to get online, but you should have some pretty significant savings on utility bills.  Have you tallied up what it would all cost if you were on-grid?  Might make you feel a bit better about your situation!   

Not allowed to shoot the free range cattle. ;-) Not opposed to hunting but not really my cup of tea anymore. I would like to do more fishing again, though. We have a very good sockeye run every year, and a freezer we could happily fill.

And don't get me wrong- I love our situation, it's just interesting when compared to the more 'standard' living situations of most people. We have no water, sewer, or power bills, though we would have to maintain/repair if something happened to these systems.

Also, does your electric company let you 'sell-back' extra electricity that you produce? I know in NC I can use either source of electricity, and if I put out more than I take in, I get a check. Even if not, it might be worth being "plugged in" with the main breaker off just to off-set your insurance premium

We are off-grid because it would have cost over 50k to bring power to the site, not so much for philosophical reasons. If grid-tie had been an option we would have done that for just the reasons you mentioned. Congrats on the dream home, btw!

In someways living in a rural area makes it easier to live a MMM lifestyle, because we don't live near a lot of stores (I miss Target), take out (I miss good chinese food), or fast food.  Nothing delivers to our house, except mail and UPS. 

Truth! I hear you on the chinese food, and any other ethnic food besides mexican, for that matter! We're getting good at making our favorite thai, indian, etc, but still haven't mastered general tso's!



Erica

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2016, 03:37:37 PM »
Going off grid is expensive, at least here.  Not a lot of sunlight in the winter (cloudy a fair bit, and short days).  People who go off-grid usually have a combination of solar and wind.  If I bought a rural property and Ontario Hydro was going to charge me $40,000 - $50,000 to run in power (not unheard of) then I would go off-grid.  If we get really good battery storage I can see a lot more solar down the line.

One advantage of begin in farm country, as opposed to forested areas, is that there are not that many trees to bring down power lines, and Hydro knows that electricity is essential to the farmers (milking) so even though lots have generators, it is still a priority.  I see crews every summer trimming back trees to power lines are safe.

Not quite sure what you mean about cash on hand?  In bad weather I want some cash, but again here (Canada) cash transactions are a very small part of commerce.  When people are paying for their double-double with a tap card, even small amounts of cash aren't needed often.

That is one thing which surprised me about this website, the philosophies and such, that going off grid wasn't a goal for most people.

The second was how little cash is kept onhand versus what they've actually accumulated. I know to invest, it can bring in more $ so that is understandable
Yes I forget it does take some money upfront to go offgrid. I was more thinking it would be the goal to do that asap. Live naturally

Many are living in cities where that is not an option. Family and jobs are located there. It isn't as expensive here to go offgrid. Even though my County is in the top 10% of high cost areas for California, the ability to buy cheap land is still available. You must really search though. Most folks in our area defeat the purpose by spending thousands of dollars buying Solar Panels while still being hooked to the electrical grid. We are planning on using Golf Cart Batteries, solar panels & a generator during the wintertime

About the cash,everything is operated by computer so that could go down at anytime. Also the depression saw the banks go belly up. 2008 and for years before and after saw the housing crisis, many lost homes, 401K's and such. Also the savings and loan crisis of the 70's. It could happen very easily and 50 thousand won't last long. Cash will be all that is used. I use it for most everything anyhow just for the sake of privacy. My bank card is now a national id card, just last week it started. Couldn't use it in 3 businessses, not even to buy pizza. Because when it arrived months ago, my husband drilled 3 holes into the tiny shiny gold square to avoid additional info such as our SS numbers, being listed on many computers. Totally unnecessary to risk ID theft imho. The shops not only want to swipe the card, they now have a new gaget to insert the card into the bottom so it can read this particular chip. The chip is unreadable so it gets rejected though the swipe is successful. My husband looked it up and there is a law which means if businesses do not buy the new equipment within a certain period of time, then if the credit card fails for whatever reason, they are out that money. The CC Companies won't cover it. All because they didn't update their CCvequipment by 2017 or whenever the deadline is. We also want to ensure when we pass, our son actually gets the cash. Though he has a good job with Apple (was just moved up) my opinion is ,this is not going to be so easy with regards to our grandchildren. Or maybe even within his lifetime. If it is, great! If not then we will do our duty and love them enough to provide something for them to fall back on. Life will not be easy with regards to jobs as we know it. This the easiest time right now than it's ever been... as long as I can remember.

Anyhow I guess that is how the world runs, everyone thinks differently :)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 03:47:58 PM by Outdoorsygal »

Fishindude

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2016, 04:31:42 PM »
We've lived pretty rural for many years.  Have a large hobby farm wher we raise a big garden, hunt deer and small game, a pond full of fish, a couple wood stoves fed from what we cut on the farm, etc.  Really can't envision going off grid, electricity is just too convenient and not all that expensive.  Rural living can be expensive as we also need tractor, mowers, chain saws, tools, implements, etc. plus sheds and barns to store everything in and work on things.  I couldn't live in town.

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2016, 06:45:17 PM »
Good thread!

When I first started reading MMM I really struggled with this.  I love where we live, in a rural area of farms and small towns, with big cities about 45 mins in either direction.  We grow a ton of food, raise chickens, crab and fish, heat with wood that DH scavenges...as much homesteading as we can cram into our 1/2 acre.  It means that DH and I both have full-on clown commutes, though, and a small pick-up that we DO use for hauling soil, woodchips, firewood, etc.  There's no question that for the first few years here we poured money into the garden and house putting all this infrastructure into place.  Between that and the commutes, I wrung my hands regularly about how we would ever save substantial amounts of money...

We used to live the exact MMM life.  But I can't do cities anymore, no matter how eco-friendly, walkable, and community-rich.  Can't handle the over-stimulation of all that activity, people, buildings, noise, lights...nope.  So I retreated a bit from the MMM tenets.

But, in the last year or two, things have changed.  As others have said, we don't shop anymore, we don't go to fancy restaurants, the freezer and pantry are stocked, the garden infrastructure is in, we have the tools we need, and our costs of living are steadily dropping.  In the next year, we'll be headed to a larger property and be starting all over again, but I'm confident we can get to a place again where our operating costs are about $30K/year, which is pretty comparable to MMM, as we're in Canada.  Best of all, I expect that our costs will be much less affected by inflation over the years.  And the plan is for DH to down-scale work (and stop commuting) and that we'll move closer to my job, bringing my commute down.  Should be the best of all worlds!

LOVE rural life.  You could NOT get me back into a city without seriously breaking my heart.

teen persuasion

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2016, 09:05:59 PM »
Rural, but on grid ( no natural gas, so oil for heat, and propane  for cooking, with woodstove to supplement both).

Distances driving have really cut my desire to buy things, it's just too much time and trouble.  I'm big on DIY, too, so default to that whenever possible.  What most consider a convenience is the opposite to me: buying coffee from a place, fast food, eating out, pizza.  Those are all time spent driving miles and miles - faster to be the little red hen and do it myself.  Same for entertainment - DVDs at home, local school concerts, fun with the kids, rather than movie theaters, city concerts, theme parks.  Sports for us is whatever meet the kids are in this week - XC, soccer, track, quidditch.

I have been amazed at how different the community is locally vs where I grew up in the 'burbs, and the city we lived in thru and after college.  City and 'burbs foster anonymity in the crowd.  Here, everyone gets to know everyone else.  It's a good thing - you look out for each other. I am comfortable letting my kids wander around the village on a holiday/parade day because I know so many other people will be keeping an eye on them, just as I'm keeping an eye on all the kids I know.  There are very few people we don't know in some way, now, even though we don't live in the village (we are 3 miles out in the farmland) between church, our 5 kids' school connections, kids' sports/drama/musical/orchestra/band/chorus, my job at the village library, my DH's volunteer fire company connections...

It's funny when you think about it - the community is more physically dispersed, the houses are far apart, and the school district covers 90 square miles, but you get to know a much greater percentage of the population than even a neighborhood in the 'burbs.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2016, 06:41:37 AM »
I have seen this too, as I have lived in suburbs, exurbs, and now farm country.  I think when people are crowded together they put up social barriers, but when they are not forced to be in close contact with others, they can then relax and get to know people.  I find that between all my activities I am acquainted with more people here, in the boonies, than I was when I lived in the suburbs. Plus as an introvert, when I am done having fun with people (yay meetups!) I can retreat to my quiet country place and recharge.  I can't ever see living in a city, too many people too close.  Ottawa is about as large as I can be OK with living near, I actively avoid Montreal and Toronto.

On the MMM philosophy, I think we have to be a bit more DIY, out of necessity.  Even if we don't replace our own well pumps, we know we are on a well and there is a pump and pressure tank that need to be looked after.  Septic tanks need pumping.  So even if we outsource work, we are outsourcing to people or small firms, not the faceless remote water or sewage facility of a city.  We are also more aware of use in a visceral way - every drop of water in my shower has been pumped by my pump (out of the aquifer my well is in) and heated by my hot water tank, using electricity I pay for.


It's funny when you think about it - the community is more physically dispersed, the houses are far apart, and the school district covers 90 square miles, but you get to know a much greater percentage of the population than even a neighborhood in the 'burbs.

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2016, 08:03:33 AM »
Not currently rural, but have close relatives very sparsely populated areas.  Planning to move farther out in the next 5 years or so, although not quite as far as you, dusty dog!

We ran the numbers, and living out of town is going to be significantly more expensive, even with proper lifestyle changes.  So many young people we've met talk about moving onto a place and going off-grid to save money, but the opposite seems to be true around here.
Can you please give some detail of what is more expensive than in a city or town?

RetiredAt63

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2016, 08:34:59 AM »
More expensive:
Electricity (rural pricing, residential low density is the most expensive, at least for Ontario Hydro).
Food - no high volume low cost grocery stores nearby.  If you want to shop at one, that means driving.  Farmers' market may or may not mean lower costs, but it does mean better quality.
Entertainment - if there is something you need to see (live shows, just-released movies) you will have to drive.  Other entertainment is usually less expensive, btw.
Growing your own - setting up infrastructure can be expensive, even with scrounging and DIY.  Not to mention time.
Depending on location - yard maintenance, even DIY, will be more expensive, more equipment and more time. Snow clearing - driveways are much longer.  There is no way I want to shovel my driveway, I don't even like shoveling to the driveway.  In town it is a breeze.
Depending on area, schools may not be good and then there is the cost of alternatives.
Car - rural life means driving - insurance goes up, maintenance goes up, gas goes up, simply because of the extra mileage. 



Not currently rural, but have close relatives very sparsely populated areas.  Planning to move farther out in the next 5 years or so, although not quite as far as you, dusty dog!

We ran the numbers, and living out of town is going to be significantly more expensive, even with proper lifestyle changes.  So many young people we've met talk about moving onto a place and going off-grid to save money, but the opposite seems to be true around here.
Can you please give some detail of what is more expensive than in a city or town?

Fishindude

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2016, 08:54:17 AM »
Have seen quite a few first time country dwellers, move to a rural area unprepared for the additional expense, work and effort required to maintain a rural place.  First thing some do is buy crap like ATV's and outdoor swimming pools, while neglecting basic important things like having a good lawn mower, weed eater, chain saw, pickup truck, etc.  Next thing you see their place start deteriorating, growing up in weeds, uncared for, etc.   Rural living requires lots more work and is generally much more expensive that living in town.

Sweetloveginger

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2016, 11:17:44 AM »
We've lived pretty rural for many years.  Have a large hobby farm wher we raise a big garden, hunt deer and small game, a pond full of fish, a couple wood stoves fed from what we cut on the farm, etc.  Really can't envision going off grid, electricity is just too convenient and not all that expensive.  Rural living can be expensive as we also need tractor, mowers, chain saws, tools, implements, etc. plus sheds and barns to store everything in and work on things.  I couldn't live in town.
This is my dream… and subsequently how I grew up. Except I would go off the grid, solar panels could pay for themselves in a few years so why not?
As far as expensive equipment you can be pretty mustachian in that area by learning how to fix/build them yourself. My dad bought all used equipment and has been fixing it for years. We also have a hodge podge of buildings that he built as materials became available. He does have quite the drive to work, unfortunately.
Right now my husband and I are dealing with the “city” life until we make the escape.

Fishindude

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2016, 01:06:21 PM »
solar panels could pay for themselves in a few years so why not?

This sounds good until you check it out. 
I recently got a quote for a solar set up to supply enough power equal to my total needs.   It required a bank of solar panels roughly 70' long x 10' tall at an install price of around $70,000 installed.   Now, first year I would get a 30% federal tax write off for this, and they claimed you could recoup another 30% of the cost over a 20 year period by selling your "green credits" to suppliers who needed them to offset their "dirty power" production.  Price did not include batteries for storage, so after dark I would still be using power off the grid, but when generating I would produce excess which would be sold on the grid and negate my monthly electric bill.  Lifetime expectancy was 20 years for the transfer gear and they don't quite yet know for the lifetime of panels.

You still somehow have to come up with the original $70,000  install price. 
Considering I pay about $250 per month, $3000 annually for electric off the grid, a solar system is a pretty hard sell.   Windmills are probably worse.

enigmaT120

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2016, 02:59:35 PM »
I see a well and septic system as a bonus, because it's cheaper than dealing with city utilities.

I thought so too until I had to replace the pump in my cistern and have my septic tank pumped out in the same year.  Still, once every 20 years or so is pretty cheap.  The old guy had me help him with the pump, so I won't need to have it hired out any more.  I'll still pay for the septic tank work, though.

We got a nice little house on 32 acres of forest land in 1991.  It was considerably cheaper than a city house, but I've been putting up with my face-punchingly stupid commute since then, and have 3 more years of it.  On the other hand, on my days off I rarely go anywhere because I'm already where I want to be.  Most of the property was clear cut and re-planted when we got it, and will be due for a commercial (hopefully!) thinning any year now.  I'll probably wait until I retire, and if my cruise says there will be enough money, I'll get a tractor and do the logging myself. 

I've done the leave-my-car a mile away from home and walk through the snow thing many times, and several years ago I converted my '58 Chevy pickup to 4WD.  Snow is rare here so the 17 mpg I get from the Chevy won't be financially significant.  I live on a hill, so even my front-wheel drive car with 4 studded tires couldn't make it.  Usually I could get to the end of my own driveway, though. 

We have expensive land-line phone and DSL internet (90 bucks a month), and the house was already tied to the grid when we bought it. 

My house insurance is expensive because I'm not in a fire protection district.  It's about 500 bucks a year.  Other companies charged twice as much, so shop around.

My work pays for a bus pass, so when I'm working in Salem I can bike the 9 miles to the nearest town and catch the bus into Salem.  Usually after work I'll get off the bus early and do a 14 or 18 mile ride back home, depending on the available daylight.  I have good lights on my bike, but without scenery I'm not motivated to go farther than I have to.  My car never gets fewer than 50 mpg so if I had to buy the passes it would not save me any money to bike, but I need the bike rides anyway.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 03:20:03 PM by enigmaT120 »

The_path_less_taken

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2016, 04:00:16 PM »
15 acres, coyotes, hawks in the yard. Mustangs before I fenced.

I grew up in a city. They're where I like to go to see plays, or museums, or movies, or eat Thai food.

But I don't want to live in one.

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2016, 05:01:00 PM »
solar panels could pay for themselves in a few years so why not?

This sounds good until you check it out. 
I recently got a quote for a solar set up to supply enough power equal to my total needs.   It required a bank of solar panels roughly 70' long x 10' tall at an install price of around $70,000 installed.   Now, first year I would get a 30% federal tax write off for this, and they claimed you could recoup another 30% of the cost over a 20 year period by selling your "green credits" to suppliers who needed them to offset their "dirty power" production.  Price did not include batteries for storage, so after dark I would still be using power off the grid, but when generating I would produce excess which would be sold on the grid and negate my monthly electric bill.  Lifetime expectancy was 20 years for the transfer gear and they don't quite yet know for the lifetime of panels.

You still somehow have to come up with the original $70,000  install price. 
Considering I pay about $250 per month, $3000 annually for electric off the grid, a solar system is a pretty hard sell.   Windmills are probably worse.

A guy I work with did the install himself and after a year of use said he's on track to make his money back in 4 more years. I also have an uncle who swears they are the greatest thing. I don't have any financials to back any of these claims, and maybe rebates are better in NY where I live or something, because I think we are one of 3 houses on the block/town (its a small place) that don't have them.

teen persuasion

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2016, 05:34:10 PM »
solar panels could pay for themselves in a few years so why not?

This sounds good until you check it out. 
I recently got a quote for a solar set up to supply enough power equal to my total needs.   It required a bank of solar panels roughly 70' long x 10' tall at an install price of around $70,000 installed.   Now, first year I would get a 30% federal tax write off for this, and they claimed you could recoup another 30% of the cost over a 20 year period by selling your "green credits" to suppliers who needed them to offset their "dirty power" production.  Price did not include batteries for storage, so after dark I would still be using power off the grid, but when generating I would produce excess which would be sold on the grid and negate my monthly electric bill.  Lifetime expectancy was 20 years for the transfer gear and they don't quite yet know for the lifetime of panels.

You still somehow have to come up with the original $70,000  install price. 
Considering I pay about $250 per month, $3000 annually for electric off the grid, a solar system is a pretty hard sell.   Windmills are probably worse.

A guy I work with did the install himself and after a year of use said he's on track to make his money back in 4 more years. I also have an uncle who swears they are the greatest thing. I don't have any financials to back any of these claims, and maybe rebates are better in NY where I live or something, because I think we are one of 3 houses on the block/town (its a small place) that don't have them.

The rebates in NY never made any sense for me.  I looked into it years ago, and it was pointless for us - the "rebates" at the time were non-refundable tax credits.  Our low income and 5 kids meant we owed no tax, therefore, no credits.  It never made sense to me that higher income people could get a tax break on alternative energy, but not lower income, simply due to the mechanism of the credit.

I think many of the credits have run out, now.  Maybe certain electric utilities in other parts of the state offered their own rebates (Long Island?), but not NiMo or National Grid now.

Spork

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2016, 05:53:35 PM »
We are semi-rural.  We have just under 8 acres in the woods.  Neighbors are close enough to be annoying (if they're that kind of people) but still hundreds of feet away.  They generally "disappear" visually in the spring/summer.

We get some amount of fun critters (deer, foxes, birds of prey, bobcats, coyotes, etc) but those numbers have been slowly dwindling since we moved here.

The city is creeping out to us, so not sure how long we will be rural.  We can get city water, but not trash pickup, sewage or natural gas hookups.  We have fine silty sand, so traditional septic works like a dream here.

We did have awesome stars 10 years ago... but city creep has really choked those way back.

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2016, 06:13:26 PM »
solar panels could pay for themselves in a few years so why not?

This sounds good until you check it out. 
I recently got a quote for a solar set up to supply enough power equal to my total needs.   It required a bank of solar panels roughly 70' long x 10' tall at an install price of around $70,000 installed.   Now, first year I would get a 30% federal tax write off for this, and they claimed you could recoup another 30% of the cost over a 20 year period by selling your "green credits" to suppliers who needed them to offset their "dirty power" production.  Price did not include batteries for storage, so after dark I would still be using power off the grid, but when generating I would produce excess which would be sold on the grid and negate my monthly electric bill.  Lifetime expectancy was 20 years for the transfer gear and they don't quite yet know for the lifetime of panels.

You still somehow have to come up with the original $70,000  install price. 
Considering I pay about $250 per month, $3000 annually for electric off the grid, a solar system is a pretty hard sell.   Windmills are probably worse.

A guy I work with did the install himself and after a year of use said he's on track to make his money back in 4 more years. I also have an uncle who swears they are the greatest thing. I don't have any financials to back any of these claims, and maybe rebates are better in NY where I live or something, because I think we are one of 3 houses on the block/town (its a small place) that don't have them.

The rebates in NY never made any sense for me.  I looked into it years ago, and it was pointless for us - the "rebates" at the time were non-refundable tax credits.  Our low income and 5 kids meant we owed no tax, therefore, no credits.  It never made sense to me that higher income people could get a tax break on alternative energy, but not lower income, simply due to the mechanism of the credit.

I think many of the credits have run out, now.  Maybe certain electric utilities in other parts of the state offered their own rebates (Long Island?), but not NiMo or National Grid now.

We have solar that provides a little more than 100% of our needs.  We installed it in 2010 and expanded it in 2013.  We will have made back every dollar we invested in April of this year.  After that we can look forward to free electricity and about $10,000 per year in profits for the next 25 years.  My situation is exceptionally good compared to most because I can sell my SRECs in DC where they pay me $475.00 per SREC. 

We paid way more than one would today for the panels and installation.  I would think even with no SRECs one could expect a 10 to 15 year payback.  But even that is too long for most homeowners who rarely stay in the same home that long.

ender

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2016, 06:36:51 PM »
We currently live in a smallish town (50k or so) but would love to live in the country.

Around here though, any place you could buy is MUCH more expensive than remotely close city homes. Which is sad :(

arebelspy

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How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2016, 02:51:28 AM »
Posting to follow!

Going rural, off grid and homesteading is one of our "maybe" futures.

If we did it, it would likely be in a semi-tropical place like Belize or Costa Rica, where we can easily grow things, have fruit trees, plenty of sun for solar power, natural good temperatures so heating and cooling is mostly unnecessary, etc.

Have some chickens for meat and eggs, rabbits for meat, maybe even a goat for milk.

The other secondary option would be Oregon.

For now we're full time nomads, traveling the world, but maybe if we have a few more kids and settle down, we'll go this route.

I expect the upfront cost to be much higher, and for it not even to necessarily pay for itself, but for it to be quite satisfactory.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
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Sweetloveginger

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2016, 06:05:09 AM »
solar panels could pay for themselves in a few years so why not?

This sounds good until you check it out. 
I recently got a quote for a solar set up to supply enough power equal to my total needs.   It required a bank of solar panels roughly 70' long x 10' tall at an install price of around $70,000 installed.   Now, first year I would get a 30% federal tax write off for this, and they claimed you could recoup another 30% of the cost over a 20 year period by selling your "green credits" to suppliers who needed them to offset their "dirty power" production.  Price did not include batteries for storage, so after dark I would still be using power off the grid, but when generating I would produce excess which would be sold on the grid and negate my monthly electric bill.  Lifetime expectancy was 20 years for the transfer gear and they don't quite yet know for the lifetime of panels.

You still somehow have to come up with the original $70,000  install price. 
Considering I pay about $250 per month, $3000 annually for electric off the grid, a solar system is a pretty hard sell.   Windmills are probably worse.

A guy I work with did the install himself and after a year of use said he's on track to make his money back in 4 more years. I also have an uncle who swears they are the greatest thing. I don't have any financials to back any of these claims, and maybe rebates are better in NY where I live or something, because I think we are one of 3 houses on the block/town (its a small place) that don't have them.

The rebates in NY never made any sense for me.  I looked into it years ago, and it was pointless for us - the "rebates" at the time were non-refundable tax credits.  Our low income and 5 kids meant we owed no tax, therefore, no credits.  It never made sense to me that higher income people could get a tax break on alternative energy, but not lower income, simply due to the mechanism of the credit.

I think many of the credits have run out, now.  Maybe certain electric utilities in other parts of the state offered their own rebates (Long Island?), but not NiMo or National Grid now.

My dad ran into this trying to use wind power as low income. It doesnt seem like a fair set up at all.


mbl

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2016, 07:36:52 AM »
We live rural on 5 acres. 
Built this small ranch house 25 years ago.

We heat with wood. 
Cut our own from around our land and misc  log loads from cut trees.

We have a propane furnace with the thermostat set to 50 degrees.
Propane used for the kitchen stove.
One window  A/C for summer.

Our electricity is on the higher end but is just the cost of doing business out here.
Homeowners insurance isn't too bad.
When they brought the water in, they put a hydrant in our from property.

No broad band or cable out here.
We use DirectTV.  No internet.  I go to the library on Saturdays, during the week I'm at work.

When they brought in public water, it cut way down on the hard water build up.
DH had a friend dig the trench and he and DS put down the pipe, ran the copper in the house, and installed the meter.
The town came to inspect when all was finished.

We buy vegetables/meat/honey from friends/neighbors in our area and sometimes trade.
I keep a small garden for tomatoes and peppers.   I can cold pack and every other year DH and DSIL do puree.

DH plants evergreens every other year.
Gets them from the Cornell Cooperative Extension(a fabulous resource).

I could keep my horse on our land but it would be a major league pain in the ass.
I board her at a friend's farm.
They have all the infrastructure and other horses so that she's provided an optimal environment.
They also have an indoor which I wouldn't have at home.
Not to mention that there is always someone there to  make sure all is well.

We love the privacy and ability to do whatever we want.
Bon fires, dirt track, ice skating rink,  play music loud and have large parties during the warmer months.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 07:38:44 AM by mbl »

Rural

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2016, 09:52:42 AM »
Well, I guess I'm obvious, but it's really nice to see this conversation! I've been around the forum for years and had no idea there were so many of us.


We are not yet off-grid but may do it eventually. We almost did it immediately when the electric co-op first quoted us $30k to run power up here, but they backed off fast and "remembered" they could put in a long buried run for $1,800 when I turned to my husband and said, " that's more than what I priced a solar setup for, so let''s just go off-grid."


Snow's not much of an issue for us this far south; we go when it's minor, stay home when there's much to it. We do now have a 4wd vehicle as our primary, and I don't think we'll be going back. I could not make the hike in to the house for a while with a back injury (our usual issue is mud, not ice). We do plan to pave the road in before we turn 70 - I don't want my husband having to shovel on a steep slope at that age, but paving will run us over $20k, so it's on the back burner for a few more years. It takes priority over the solar, though that's a shame since we set the house up for solar when we built. We do have primary solar heat because we designed that in with sun angles and high thermal mass.


Our electric is actually not bad because it's TVA; we pay 8 cents a kWh. Water is county, first time in a long time we've not been on a well, and the bill is always under $20 a month. No sewer, of course, and my husband can and has done minor septic work himself. We'll hire someone with a truck to pump, but that's all.


No cable available, probably never will be, and of course no gas. We're all electric. DSL for Internet, and it saves more in fuel going in to work on days I work from home than we spend. Comes with a bare-bones landline which we can only use for incoming calls and 911, but we do get a surprising amount of mileage out of the incoming since our cell reception is extremely spotty. Skype for outgoing because we can get calls to phones for $30 a year.


Shopping is difficult, for us even online since we don't have postal delivery and UPS and FedEx only come up the private road when they feel like it and otherwise dump packages down by the public road to be stolen. So we don't use them, and therefore don't order anything that won't deliver to a PO box.


However, Walmart's prices here are better than the ones most posters on the forum report at Costco, and for even better prices there's a Sav-a-Lot in a town about ten miles off. Just don't expect to be able to buy anything "exotic," like coconut milk. :)


Medical specialists are 50-90 miles off. Airports are over 100, though there is a tiny one at 45. I've walked down onto the tarmac and climbed the stairs into a couple of planes there for work trips, but work gets grumpy about the extra costs, so I often take a shuttle from work to the bigger airport.


There are two private companies that do trash pickup out here, and we've hired one of them. At $212 a year, we think it's worth it. We haul a bag down to the road when we're going somewhere anyway, because while it's only about a quarter mile, it's almost 300 feet of elevation change over that distance.


I wouldn't change it. Well, maybe the UPS and FedEx situation, but not most of it. I definitely wouldn't move back to a city for any reason.


No public transit of any sort in at least a 40-mile radius. I think that's the only increased cost we have though, transportation. Everything else costs us less than it did in the city years ago. If we chose to try to live like people do in a city, of course it would cost more, but we don't.

MrsDinero

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2016, 10:05:16 AM »
Have seen quite a few first time country dwellers, move to a rural area unprepared for the additional expense, work and effort required to maintain a rural place.  First thing some do is buy crap like ATV's and outdoor swimming pools, while neglecting basic important things like having a good lawn mower, weed eater, chain saw, pickup truck, etc.  Next thing you see their place start deteriorating, growing up in weeds, uncared for, etc.   Rural living requires lots more work and is generally much more expensive that living in town.

The start up costs can be expensive and it does require a lot more work.  Last year we ended up hiring a local company to maintain our yard and clear some of the land.  We are looking at lawn mowers now and realized we should have bought on sale last year in the fall...lesson learned. 

Syonyk

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2016, 06:19:06 PM »
That is one thing which surprised me about this website, the philosophies and such, that going off grid wasn't a goal for most people.

There is a lot of faith in "the system" expressed by at least MMM.  The banks, the financial system, power grid, etc.  Self sufficiency tends to be more inefficient than simply trading money for services, so from a FI perspective, you are worse off setting yourself up for providing for yourself and your family than just (IMO) sticking your head in the sand and assuming that things will keep going as they are.

Have seen quite a few first time country dwellers, move to a rural area unprepared for the additional expense, work and effort required to maintain a rural place.  First thing some do is buy crap like ATV's and outdoor swimming pools, while neglecting basic important things like having a good lawn mower, weed eater, chain saw, pickup truck, etc.  Next thing you see their place start deteriorating, growing up in weeds, uncared for, etc.   Rural living requires lots more work and is generally much more expensive that living in town.

Oof.  Yeah.  My wife & I are moving to rural farm country in a few months.  I've already got the truck lined up, but I'm taking 3 months off work to basically work on the property and fight back the desert scrub.  It's going to be a lot of work, but I'm really looking forward to it.

my2c+61

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2016, 08:04:33 PM »
A year ago I left the city and retreated to the forest.
I have been renting an off the grid bungalow.
Solar electricity and water heating,wood stove with water jacket, tank water and a little bottled gas for summer hot plate use.
The only service we get here is the council grader touching up the roads when needed.
As far as the travel goes I now cover more distance but in a lot shorter time than it takes in the city so the costs balance out.
Food and consumables are a little dearer but housing is so much cheaper, so again swings and roundabouts.
There is a lot more planning involved when heading out for the day but efficiency is a good thing.
Being mustachian you are well on you way to enjoying what rural life has to offer.

serpentstooth

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2016, 08:11:14 PM »
Also rural.  All the obvious life factors - well and septic system, high cost of electricity, no public transport, city an hour's drive (smaller towns are 5-10 minutes) away.  Basically this means activities/errands are planned (if i am going someplace anyway, I want to get as much done as possible on one drive) and the weather is a decisive factor in planning outside activities (home or away).  So of course there are trade-offs, some things are easier or less expensive, others are harder or more expensive, than the same thing for a city dweller.

I'm not off-grid but I know of people who are.  A local paper just had an article about an off-grid farm family.

I remember mentioning to a coworker that my parents keep a really shitty minivan around for taking trash to the dump. He didn't understand why you wouldn't have a trash service. I decided not to explain about how you can't do laundry on rainy days if you have a septic system.

serpentstooth

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2016, 08:20:59 PM »
More expensive:
Electricity (rural pricing, residential low density is the most expensive, at least for Ontario Hydro).
Food - no high volume low cost grocery stores nearby.  If you want to shop at one, that means driving.  Farmers' market may or may not mean lower costs, but it does mean better quality.
Entertainment - if there is something you need to see (live shows, just-released movies) you will have to drive.  Other entertainment is usually less expensive, btw.
Growing your own - setting up infrastructure can be expensive, even with scrounging and DIY.  Not to mention time.
Depending on location - yard maintenance, even DIY, will be more expensive, more equipment and more time. Snow clearing - driveways are much longer.  There is no way I want to shovel my driveway, I don't even like shoveling to the driveway.  In town it is a breeze.
Depending on area, schools may not be good and then there is the cost of alternatives.
Car - rural life means driving - insurance goes up, maintenance goes up, gas goes up, simply because of the extra mileage. 



Not currently rural, but have close relatives very sparsely populated areas.  Planning to move farther out in the next 5 years or so, although not quite as far as you, dusty dog!

We ran the numbers, and living out of town is going to be significantly more expensive, even with proper lifestyle changes.  So many young people we've met talk about moving onto a place and going off-grid to save money, but the opposite seems to be true around here.
Can you please give some detail of what is more expensive than in a city or town?

Food is a big one. Where I grew up there was a tiny, EXPENSIVE IGA and that was it for grocery shopping, unless you were willing to drive at least 20 minutes, if not more. Most people I knew just kept a list and went "into town" once every week or two. Time is a cost too: the town next to mine only had school through eighth grade, so your 14-18 year olds were going to have a half hour commute to one of the area high schools that took them. In fact, going anywhere is a big problem. Your 4 year old needs speech therapy twice a week? If the one therapist that serves the K-8 school on one day a week can't fit him in, have fun driving 30 minutes each twice, once a week at least to get that. You can end up spending an awful lot on transit.

Still hoping to convince my husband to move back up there, though.

Syonyk

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2016, 08:34:54 PM »
Food is a big one. Where I grew up there was a tiny, EXPENSIVE IGA and that was it for grocery shopping, unless you were willing to drive at least 20 minutes, if not more. Most people I knew just kept a list and went "into town" once every week or two.

On the flip side, you almost certainly have room for a nice deep freezer or two, so you can store larger quantities of food, and go in with some friends on a quarter cow or something every six months.

serpentstooth

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2016, 08:52:53 PM »
Food is a big one. Where I grew up there was a tiny, EXPENSIVE IGA and that was it for grocery shopping, unless you were willing to drive at least 20 minutes, if not more. Most people I knew just kept a list and went "into town" once every week or two.

On the flip side, you almost certainly have room for a nice deep freezer or two, so you can store larger quantities of food, and go in with some friends on a quarter cow or something every six months.

Well, I live in NYC now and crammed a chest freezer into my apartment (apparently I'm the only person in the building with one), but everyone I knew had one growing up.

arebelspy

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2016, 01:57:42 AM »
That is one thing which surprised me about this website, the philosophies and such, that going off grid wasn't a goal for most people.

There is a lot of faith in "the system" expressed by at least MMM.  The banks, the financial system, power grid, etc. 

I agree. MMM is based in realism and probabilities, not long shots. It's a practical, realistic approach.

If we go self-sufficient, off-grid, it will be for the fun and challenge. It won't be because I think the end of the world is coming, or that I think the whole system will collapse.

I would follow more self-sufficiency blogs, but so many are nutcases ranting about the end of society and the system collapsing that it's hard to get through to the useful content, sadly.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2016, 03:27:25 AM »
Food is a big one. Where I grew up there was a tiny, EXPENSIVE IGA and that was it for grocery shopping, unless you were willing to drive at least 20 minutes, if not more. Most people I knew just kept a list and went "into town" once every week or two.

On the flip side, you almost certainly have room for a nice deep freezer or two, so you can store larger quantities of food, and go in with some friends on a quarter cow or something every six months.


Where I live it's twenty minutes to any grocery store anyway, so I bypass the little filthy overpriced mostly empty independent and go to Walmart three miles further on. (Those following along at home will remember the mom and pop grocery owned by old friends - the little filthy version is the same place after they sold about a year ago). I shop once a week when I go to town for the mail.

RysChristensen

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2016, 08:36:32 AM »
Future rural person here. I just bought a huge piece of land (needed, no. wanted, desperately!) and am milking the suburban job to pay it down/ save to build a house so that I can move up to the land and start farming.

Definitely and AWD/4WD location (half and hour north of Bangor, ME, and half a mile past where the road turns to dirt, so I figure between snow, mud, and living on a logging-company-built driveway...). I'm trying to decide whether to be off-grid or not. There is power at the road, but I'm almost at the end of the official road (and don't know if the houses further out are full-time or camps), so between that and the reports of how often the power goes down, it might be easier to design everything to not rely on power lines.

If anyone has any tips and tricks they'd like to share with someone in the design phase (stuff you wish you'd done differently, or cool things you've implemented) that would be awesome! I'm currently planning on a super-insulated house with some passive solar, wood heat (god knows I could heat for years off the slash left behind by logging), greenhouses, permaculture design, and looking into greywater systems, and other alternative ideas, depending on what the rules actually are.

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2016, 09:33:26 AM »
Like RysChristensen, I'm also a future rural person. I grew up in a fairly rural area and somehow wound up living in Phoenix. :-o I'm looking forward to buying land in Washington state and will be spending the entire month of March living in WA to make sure it's a good fit. I'm also very interested in any tips and tricks used by those who have gone before me!

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2016, 10:58:55 AM »
If anyone has any tips and tricks they'd like to share with someone in the design phase (stuff you wish you'd done differently, or cool things you've implemented) that would be awesome! I'm currently planning on a super-insulated house with some passive solar, wood heat (god knows I could heat for years off the slash left behind by logging), greenhouses, permaculture design, and looking into greywater systems, and other alternative ideas, depending on what the rules actually are.

Things I think we did right:
* we, too bought our land before we were ready to build a house.  Ours had an outbuilding.  We lived in that outbuilding for over five years -- living really low to save money for the house.
* paid cash for the house.  Yes, it can be cheaper to finance/invest.  But paying cash made us really think about the cost and made us cut more things out out than if we had financed.
* a wood stove.  We have tons of hardwoods that seem to just throw tree tops and branches at us.
* every thing I thought I could do myself in a reasonable time frame I did myself.  Finding a builder that is willing to play along with this can be challenging.  This included designing the house such that it could be partially built and finished later.  We had a 2 story house where the upstairs was unfinished.  We moved in when the downstairs was done.
* foam insulation done at the roof line.  The attic is nice and comfortable all year around.  We pay less in electricity for our "big house" than we did when we lived in the outbuilding (but that was not very well insulated and had 120v window units.)

Things I think we did wrong:
* design was overly complicated for aesthetic reasons.  I like the look, but complicated roof line and lots of corners makes a more expensive house
* not enough thought put into the layout vs the wood stove.  The stove has a really hard time reaching the far ends of the house.  Thought needed to be put into recirculating that air to the farthest corner and/or making the stove more central to the house.
* our kitchen has a vintage gas stove as the main cooking appliance with a modern electric wall oven for when we need a second oven.  In retrospect, I wish we'd used vintage gas ovens in both cases.  The modern oven is just not as good and isn't much to look at.  We rarely use it and just end up storing things in it.
* I did recycled gym flooring for all the upstairs floors.  The amount of labor was ridiculous and I think I would have been happier buying brand new, unfinished hardwood.

Poeirenta

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2016, 01:53:37 PM »
Another vote for getting to know the property before building. We owned our land for 6 years before building. We also did a super-cautious transition from city life to country life. I landed a full time job and moved into a rental in town. DH stayed in the city for 5 months and fixed up our house so we could rent it, then joined me. We figured if things didn't work out, we could go back to the city and reevaluate.

We decided we really wanted to be on our land, not in town, so we customized and winterized a 10' x 20' shed into a kitchen/shower space (we were already set up with a sleeping cabin and composting toilet outhouse for when we came out on weekends the previous 4 years), and moved out of the crappy little rental after a year.  We lived without power and running water for two years while we built the house. It's amazing what one can get used to!

We sold the city house just before the capital gains exemption window closed, and luckily the housing market had rebounded. That paid for the rest of the new house and the last of the home equity loan that we used to buy the parcel adjacent to us 3 years after the original parcel.

If you are buying land in the arid West, be absolutely sure you have water. Our land had nothing but a well on it, which we had tested before we closed.

We built a passive solar, half earth bermed house. We did the interior design work, but hired a passive solar expert to make sure we had the right overhangs and mass-to-glass ratio. I highly recommend this route- the house is amazingly comfortable, even when it was 103 degrees out (and we don't have AC)

We had a contractor do the shell and we did the rest, either ourselves or we hired subcontractors.  We discovered that wood-only heat leads to higher insurance rates, so we have a propane wall heater plus a wood stove as "backup". As mentioned in the original post, we are off-grid with a 3 kw PV system and a propane generator to charge the batteries when we get too many cloudy days in a row.

If wildfire is a concern, get to know the Firewise.org website in detail. There is a lot you can do to reduce your risk from wildfire, especially when you are building from the ground up.

We made a few mistakes along the way- we should have switched the pantry and power room for example, since the pantry gets a little too warm for optimum food storage, and we should have put the generator hook up at the back of the house so we wouldn't hear it so much.

Beyond that, we are very happy with how things have come out, and we would have a really hard time moving back to a city now.

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2016, 03:29:31 PM »
I'll +2 the getting to know the land and +1 the passive solar and earth bermed.


We rented for two years and shopped for a bargain on land, though we knew we wanted to be in the area (my husband's from here). Still, it got us land at a bargain. We moved into a 1971 single-wide already on the property, listed as uninhabitable and with no heat, and lived in it for what turned out to be nearly five years while building. We did all the design and all the work except for the concrete pour, buried water and power lines, and, at the end as that trailer started to sink under us, the drywall so we could move sooner.  We had many, many weeks of full-time volunteer labor from my father,  which is a good thing since we were both working full-time.


No real regrets. If we'd know how long it would take us to cover our open courtyard to make it into an enclosed atrium, I think we would have worked in a hallway somehow rather than one bathroom being a sort of passthrough. But I think we'll go back to being happy with that when it's all done,


 I'm glad we did it when we did. We're both definitely too old to start a project like that now. We waited until the last possible reasonable time to do it, I think. My father's just one of those old guys they do human interest stories about on all their milestone birthdays - he's not natural. :)

Poeirenta

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2016, 04:33:56 PM »
I'm glad we did it when we did. We're both definitely too old to start a project like that now. We waited until the last possible reasonable time to do it, I think.

This times infinity!

We had just hit 40 when we made the leap to the ranch, but had been talking about doing this since we met in college. Decided in '99 to buy a house in the city with the intention of using it to buy and build in the country, but it took another 7 years to really focus and go find our property. We had a really great 18 months of camping all over Washington State looking at land, btw, so when we found this place we knew as soon as we got out of the truck that it was the right one for us. Then we spent 4 years going back and forth on weekends.

The work on this house definitely took a bigger toll on our bodies than the substantial remodel we had done 10 years earlier...my knees still complain about all the time I spent finishing the concrete floors! We are making up for that now with lots of time on the porch with an adult beverage, gazing at the mountain views. :-)

Mtngrl

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2016, 08:23:19 PM »
Great thread. We are in a rural area in the mountains, on two acres (but on-grid). Bought the land in 2008, built the house in 2011, retired and moved here in 2014. We have always lived in rural areas and small towns, so never considered any other lifestyle. We have a big garden, and installed a greenhouse last fall, so I'm looking forward to growing a lot in there (the only way to get good tomatoes at 8000 ft) Though we have in-floor radiant heat in the house, our primary heat is from a wood stove -- we cut four cords of wood from the National Forest nearby for $10 a cord. No need for air conditioning. I line dry clothes, and as someone else mentioned, stores are far enough away that we tend to stay out of them and since the restaurant choices are few and no one delivers, we are less tempted to eat out.
More expensive: transportation in general -- we have a pickup truck that we use a lot (hauling wood, etc) and a 4wd Subaru. Higher cost for house insurance, though not much so. High water costs -- we're on a water system for our development -- wells are a tricky business here. Travel by air to anywhere is expensive because we have to take a commuter flight from the local airport to Denver or Salt Lake to catch flights going almost anywhere else, which adds significantly to the cost. And we only have a couple of airlines to choose from.

Less expensive: tremendous free outdoor recreation all around us -- great hiking, skiing and snow-shoeing. The nearby town (8 miles away) has a lot of free activities, especially in the summer, ranging from free outdoor concerts and a couple of different lecture series, plus various festivals. And since neither of us is commuting to work anymore, we spend less on gas now, even though we have to drive half an hour to do any significant shopping. We only hit up Costco 4 times a year, when I attend conferences in Denver.

Also, I think there is less pressure in a rural area to 'keep up with the Joneses'. Everyone around here shops the local thrift store (which supports the humane society), dresses casual for everything (jeans and hiking boots or cargo shorts and sandals are pretty much the uniform here -- add the T-shirt of your choice.) Even if you have a new car, it's going to get dusty from driving dirt roads and there is a certain pride taken in driving a vehicle for years and years. As one man told me who is driving a Dodge truck with over 300,000 miles on it. "I can't get rid of the truck -- no one would know it's me." We've gotten to know a lot of our neighbors and they live lifestyles very similar to ours -- focused on outdoor activities, DIY and pleasing ourselves.  It's a lifestyle I would recommend to anyone.

Rural

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Re: How many other rural and/or off-grid folks here?
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2016, 04:31:27 AM »
I'm glad we did it when we did. We're both definitely too old to start a project like that now. We waited until the last possible reasonable time to do it, I think.

This times infinity!

We had just hit 40 when we made the leap to the ranch, but had been talking about doing this since we met in college. Decided in '99 to buy a house in the city with the intention of using it to buy and build in the country, but it took another 7 years to really focus and go find our property. We had a really great 18 months of camping all over Washington State looking at land, btw, so when we found this place we knew as soon as we got out of the truck that it was the right one for us. Then we spent 4 years going back and forth on weekends.

The work on this house definitely took a bigger toll on our bodies than the substantial remodel we had done 10 years earlier...my knees still complain about all the time I spent finishing the concrete floors! We are making up for that now with lots of time on the porch with an adult beverage, gazing at the mountain views. :-)


What did you do with your concrete? Not that I'm likely to tackle anything now, but when our acid etch and stain wouldn't take in the spot I tested (under the tub), I just hit the whole place with a semigloss sealant and called it a floor.