The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: frugalecon on June 03, 2019, 03:47:14 AM
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Retiring at MRA in the Federal system probably is contrary to the “RE” aspect of FIRE, but I am curious how many Feds are shooting for it anyway. The health care benefits in particular are a draw. I just hit 100 weeks to go to my MRA, so it has been on my mind.
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No way, but I’m also a long ways from MRA and hope to be FIRE many years before then. Less than 2 years out would be tempting for the health benefit, although I feel that they are very expensive plans. But obviously whether they are expensive depends on the other options in your location.
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I am just about the same place as you in my countdown to MRA+10 retirement from Federal Service. 56 years old may not be super early, but is still better than grinding it out until 65 or even 70 like some of the folks I work with. FEHB is definitely a big draw for me as I will have a family to insure in addition to myself.
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No way, but I’m also a long ways from MRA and hope to be FIRE many years before then. Less than 2 years out would be tempting for the health benefit, although I feel that they are very expensive plans. But obviously whether they are expensive depends on the other options in your location.
Actually, the FEHB plans can be pretty affordable. Certainly better for those at mid to higher tax brackets with the ACA plans and definitely a lot better than the private market. I can relate to it not being worth it to work for quite a few years, but in the OP’s case (and mine) it is not long at all. It also gives a chance to sock away as much as possible in TSP.
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Actually, the FEHB plans can be pretty affordable.
"Affordable" is kind of a loaded term. The "Affordable" Care Act makes health insurance affordable for people at every income level by subsidizing it based on income, with the assumption that people who are very very rich can "afford" to pay full freight for expensive private health insurance.
It also makes health insurance very affordable for lower income folks. So affordable, in fact, that it costs less than FEHB for former-feds.
I'm a former fed, who retired more than a decade before my MRA and never even considered giving away that many more years of my life just so I could get subsidized health insurance. I can already get subsidized health insurance through the ACA.
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Having Uncle Sam continue to kick in 2/3 of the premiums while I am responsible only for the same amount I currently pay is worth it in my case. FEHB, together with Medicare (once I hit 65), will provide me with good coverage. Others' situations obviously vary.
The OP stated that he has only 100 weeks (less than 2 years) to go. In my case, I have about 112 weeks to go. Unless one is truly miserable, 2 years to hang in there for a pretty decent deal on insurance would make sense for many. . A decade, not so much...
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No way, but I’m also a long ways from MRA and hope to be FIRE many years before then. Less than 2 years out would be tempting for the health benefit, although I feel that they are very expensive plans. But obviously whether they are expensive depends on the other options in your location.
Actually, the FEHB plans can be pretty affordable. Certainly better for those at mid to higher tax brackets with the ACA plans and definitely a lot better than the private market. I can relate to it not being worth it to work for quite a few years, but in the OP’s case (and mine) it is not long at all. It also gives a chance to sock away as much as possible in TSP.
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I could see it being worth a 2 year wait, especially because premiums are more for 50+ folks in private market and ACA plans. I’m comparing fed premiums to my husbands plans/other friends in the area and our potential ACA outlook rather than private plans. Odds seem low we’d ever be shopping for private (vs employer provided) or not get ACA credit if/when we FIRE. At least if ACA stays similar or next program is anywhere close to what it is now.
We get insurance with my husbands employer plan now because the premiums are almost half the cheapest fed plan available and is more than half the cheapest fed plan that actually has providers near where we live. That’s not even counting the HSA contribution his firm puts into our HSA. It’s basically, in my mind, free because the monthly employer HSA contribution is more than the monthly premiums. The premiums drop by half and HSA contribution goes up $50/month if we have kids vs fed plans just get more expensive. And it was mind boggling at a get together how many friends/ friend of friends had zero premiums and no deductible or zero premiums and full reimbursement for deductible plans at work. They ran the gambit of marketing jobs to interior design. I was green with envy for the person with no premiums AND a 15% 401k match. Gah.
ACA estimates with a income 10k over what we are actually planning for FIRE is $1 for bronze (which I’m okay with) or $225 gold both at a very good hospital system or $0 bronze and like $2 or some ridiculous low amount for gold same income but with kids.
I guess maybe a good theoretical question is how many years away before it becomes not worth the wait? My gut says more than 5 years wait is not worth it. It would depend a lot on the administration, for me anyways.
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Depending on how things go, I'll hang out until my MRA. However, if certain benefits ever go away, that's off.
I have 19 years in at age 40, so I still have a long way to go. I'll be eligible for an early out at age 46 though, so I'll be putting in for it every year and hope I get accepted eventually.
Fortunately, my job is not miserable. The work itself isn't that bad (although stress can go from 0 to 100 in a matter of seconds). There is a lot of down time to pursue hobbies, cook meals, go through my budget/statements, etc. I also get a lot of time off due to the 12 hour rotating shifts (for just 16 hours of leave, I can get 16 days off in a row, five times a year). As long as we don't get a jerk boss, it's not a bad gig at all.
Sadly, I know first hand how a job environment can turn toxic in no time, so I still set myself up to be able to escape before my MRA if I ever needed to.
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I am just about the same place as you in my countdown to MRA+10 retirement from Federal Service. 56 years old may not be super early, but is still better than grinding it out until 65 or even 70 like some of the folks I work with. FEHB is definitely a big draw for me as I will have a family to insure in addition to myself.
Sounds like we are twins, @ospreyjp . It will be interesting to see how I feel at MRA. I could see OMY syndrome setting in, but on the other hand maybe I will be ready to transition to the next phase. At this point I just want to lock in the FEHB option. We are already FI now, though that would require location to a lower-cost-of-living place. I constantly weigh the tradeoff of that vs. our life in the HCOL place we live, which I do like.
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7.1 yrs left till MRA. Started saving $$ late in life. I'll still get out of there before several co-workers with 2 retirement checks Already coming in [military and military disability/ concurrent receipt - these folks are in no way disabled, they just worked the system ] .
FEHB is a big draw. Also the supplemental annuity. Still having a mortgage and a young child are big factors in not taking a defered retirement + wife has no health insurance option thru her work.
I am rooting for a RIF but its not likely. I'm in a position where the odd hours are a big reason to stay put. Gave up a semi-supervisory position, to have less stress, and not bring work problems home - on 'cruise control' now.
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Nope, that'd require about an extra 20 years for me to hit. Planning on being long gone before hitting MRA. We'd also have about 9-10x more money than we actually need by that point.
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Ehh....I'm a long way from MRA. But I'm a long way from FI too. My ultimate goal at this point is to be able to pull the trigger if VERA/VSIP comes along (actually not unlikely given my field). I've seen too many people who are unable to take it due to not being able to afford it. The FEHB is a big deal. My husband has health issues that are likely to get worse. I don't have faith that the ACA will be around forever and I doubt we'll see Medicare for All in my lifetime. I also want to move overseas, so I need a plan that will work OCONUS. I hit 10 years with the gov't in a couple of months, so if things change for the better, I can always defer a retirement if I want to.
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Having Uncle Sam continue to kick in 2/3 of the premiums while I am responsible only for the same amount I currently pay is worth it in my case. FEHB, together with Medicare (once I hit 65), will provide me with good coverage. Others' situations obviously vary.
The OP stated that he has only 100 weeks (less than 2 years) to go. In my case, I have about 112 weeks to go. Unless one is truly miserable, 2 years to hang in there for a pretty decent deal on insurance would make sense for many. . A decade, not so much...
It's probably also harder to change the benefit for former Fed workers vs. changing policies available through the ACA.
If you get good market returns, that extra 2 years might also mean a significant bump in spending when you do retire or a legacy gift at end of life if that's something you're interested in.
For example:
If you were using the 4% rule, had a salary of $100k, worked an extra 2 years and got an 8% return after inflation from your portfolio.
- You go from retiring with $1,250,000 to retiring with $1,562,000.
- At 4%, your annual spending can increase from $50k to $62,480.
- Or, if you still spent $50k and lived in a case where you died after a 40 year retirement averaging 4% returns, you'd end up with an extra ~ $1.5M you could donate to your favorite cause / children.
I'm sure that's not worth it for some. But for others that might not be a bad trade off.
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I'm about 3.5 years out, as I've mentioned elsewhere here. I was a late adopter as far as the frugality/FIRE movement goes; I didn't really start to optimize my finances until perhaps 2012 or so. I could leave now and be "OK" but I don't hate my job (at least currently) and staying until MRA makes a substantial difference in what I can do after retiring. I have some interests and family concerns that are hard to satisfy with a minimalist/MMM style FIRE also. I'm partially supporting my mother, and I like to make and build stuff; I'd like more options for building/renovating another house or two, and a big shop for building cars.
There are multiple carrots to stay:
Continued FEHB coverage (my wife will continue to work so no ACA subsidies for us)
Immediate pension start without reduction; I hit 30 years next year at which point the extra 2 years to MRA doesn't seem like much.
Supplemental pension until age 62 (this is a substantial benefit for 6 years)
Immediate access to TSP funds without ROTH ladders/SEPP
A few more years to pad the TSP account
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I’m definitely not hanging on for MRA. There’s absolutely no way I could do this 15 more years. However, I can get health insurance through my part time job, and I definitely understand that that’s a big deal. If that wasn’t the case, I’d suck it up and hang on.
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I'm still undecided as it is quite a few years away, plan is to reassess at FI status.
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In response to the OP, I don’t see that hanging around for a few years to build your stash is non Mustachian. These “golden handcuffs” retirement plans offer great incentive to stay put for a few years. Particularly if you like, or at least don’t hate, what you’re doing.
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I’m hanging on until MRA which is Feb 1, 2024. As much as I’m ready a change I think it’s the smart move for me.
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In response to the OP, I don’t see that hanging around for a few years to build your stash is non Mustachian. These “golden handcuffs” retirement plans offer great incentive to stay put for a few years. Particularly if you like, or at least don’t hate, what you’re doing.
Oh, I just meant that the strategy of staying in the W-2 world until age 56 or 57 was a little out of sync with the "RE" part of "FIRE."
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There are multiple carrots to stay:
Continued FEHB coverage (my wife will continue to work so no ACA subsidies for us)
Immediate pension start without reduction; I hit 30 years next year at which point the extra 2 years to MRA doesn't seem like much.
Supplemental pension until age 62 (this is a substantial benefit for 6 years)
Immediate access to TSP funds without ROTH ladders/SEPP
A few more years to pad the TSP account
This exactly. The biggest issue for me is the retirement annuity and the SS supplement. I have 9 yrs left but I'm not FI yet. In 9 yrs I should have $1 to 1.5 mil and my annuity, and SS supplement, kids out of college, house paid, and ready to retire. I also really like my job, but not enough to do it a day after MRA. But if I was FI now then I wouldn't wait another 9 years. I justed started MMM journey 7 or so months ago so I have a way to go.
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Fed retiree here. Waited to 57 to retire primarily due to health benefits. I have two teens at home, one who is disabled so I needed to be sure we could have good insurance for him at a reasonable cost. I only had 15 years i, so after my healthcare cost I only get $700 a month. I live on that plus a small amount monthly from my TSP. Haven’t had to touch investments out of TSP yet. I never thought I’d be able to retire until I was 70, so getting out at 57 was heaven. It made me sad to see how many of my coworkers were still working in their 70s because they couldn’t afford to retire. Many of them had never saved at all into the TSP, not even for the match. When I left they were in awe that I could afford to, but all those years I drove beaters and ate lunch at my desk paid off nicely with earlier retirement and 7 figures in the bank...
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In response to the OP, I don’t see that hanging around for a few years to build your stash is non Mustachian. These “golden handcuffs” retirement plans offer great incentive to stay put for a few years. Particularly if you like, or at least don’t hate, what you’re doing.
Oh, I just meant that the strategy of staying in the W-2 world until age 56 or 57 was a little out of sync with the "RE" part of "FIRE."
Yes, it does seem rather counterintuitive. Early retirement is really based on perspective. If your plan or financial reality was you would work till full SS retirement at 67 and then you figure out a way to retire at 60, did you retire early? Also, how are we defining retirement? By never working again for money? If so, there are a heck of a lot of FIREd folks who don’t meet that test.
Yeah... My age of retiring at 57 (unless I can get the early out with full benefits, which I'm eligible to apply for at age 46) is not in-line with what most here consider "early retirement", but is considered early for most of my coworkers (who, due to spending habits "can't afford" to retire at their MRA, or take advantage of an early out, even though they have the years in).
On the other hand, when I retire, I'm done. I've shown up for a job since I was in the fifth grade, and retirement to me means never working a job again. Not a "fun job", not a "side gig", not a "hustle". I want to relax at home, work on hobbies, and go on lots of trips. If I need money from some kind of work, then I don't feel like that's an actual retirement, just going to part time, so may as well stay doing what I'm doing until I can make "real retirement" happen.
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Actually, the FEHB plans can be pretty affordable.
"Affordable" is kind of a loaded term. The "Affordable" Care Act makes health insurance affordable for people at every income level by subsidizing it based on income, with the assumption that people who are very very rich can "afford" to pay full freight for expensive private health insurance.
It also makes health insurance very affordable for lower income folks. So affordable, in fact, that it costs less than FEHB for former-feds.
I'm a former fed, who retired more than a decade before my MRA and never even considered giving away that many more years of my life just so I could get subsidized health insurance. I can already get subsidized health insurance through the ACA.
Interesting perspective, @sol, I hadn't considered that aspect. We don't plan to work after we retire, but we'll probably spend significant time overseas, so I'm not sure whether the ACA would provide sufficient coverage.
I'm about 3.5 years out, as I've mentioned elsewhere here. I was a late adopter as far as the frugality/FIRE movement goes; I didn't really start to optimize my finances until perhaps 2012 or so. I could leave now and be "OK" but I don't hate my job (at least currently) and staying until MRA makes a substantial difference in what I can do after retiring. I have some interests and family concerns that are hard to satisfy with a minimalist/MMM style FIRE also. I'm partially supporting my mother, and I like to make and build stuff; I'd like more options for building/renovating another house or two, and a big shop for building cars.
There are multiple carrots to stay:
Continued FEHB coverage (my wife will continue to work so no ACA subsidies for us)
Immediate pension start without reduction; I hit 30 years next year at which point the extra 2 years to MRA doesn't seem like much.
Supplemental pension until age 62 (this is a substantial benefit for 6 years)
Immediate access to TSP funds without ROTH ladders/SEPP
A few more years to pad the TSP account
In my case, I have 6+ years to go. If I don't retire right away (at the end of the month in which I qualify), while I'd still receive my salary, I'd forego the supplemental pension. Wait, you want to pay me extra to retire sooner? Yes, please.
On top of the items you list, @kendallf, we have college tuition to pay for four more years. I can certainly hang on for another two to reach MRA & FEHB nirvana thereafter.
-EF
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I'm a SCE Fed, yes I'm planning RE'ing later than I need to in order to keep Health Insurance. (6 years 1 month I'll still be retired early by most everyone's standards at 47.)
ETA: Also honestly I'm at a minimal FI point right now but without the buffer I'd want and as spankytheop mentioned if I'd need a side gig/part time work etc to add to my preferred lifestyle I'd rather just keep working my day job. Most of my co-workers talk about a "retirement job," and even tell me what jobs would be good for me, I have no desire to work a job at all although I will likely have a regular volunteer gig or two in retirement.
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Recently retired Fed here (at age 53). My MRA was only 50 because I was in the special category (LEO). I ended up doing 21.5 years, but I also bought 6 years of prior military time, so I went out with 42% of my High-3. I consider it a fantastic bargain that I only had to trade 21.5 years of my life (the 6 years of prior military never seemed like work; more like an adventure -- I was stationed in SoCal, traveled the world, did lots of cool shit) for a lifetime of income and health care security.
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I'm a SCE Fed, yes I'm planning RE'ing later than I need to in order to keep Health Insurance. (6 years 1 month I'll still be retired early by most everyone's standards at 47.)
ETA: Also honestly I'm at a minimal FI point right now but without the buffer I'd want and as spankytheop mentioned if I'd need a side gig/part time work etc to add to my preferred lifestyle I'd rather just keep working my day job. Most of my co-workers talk about a "retirement job," and even tell me what jobs would be good for me, I have no desire to work a job at all although I will likely have a regular volunteer gig or two in retirement.
The typo made me laugh...
When I worked as an electrician, we had a couple guys who were going to "retire early" (usually their MRA) and then go start their own business. I don't know a single one who did, but know a few worked well past their MRA even though they were eligible to retire. I think they realized, politics aside, that our fairly cush, paid-by-the-hour maintenance job was a hell of a lot easier than busting ass on the outside, handling books and everything else, stressing about all kinds of things, and likely bringing home less money. It's something I just never understood.
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Wow, for those who have put in the time, congratulations.
Myself, I'm so far away that I don't think (or hope that) MRA or any of the other federal retirement thresholds will ever apply to me. Thus I've never really paid attention to it. But this thread prompted me to jump onto the OPM website and read up on it.
I'm 39 now, started being a federal worker in 2017 at age 37.
[Typing this out for myself really]
My MRA will be age 57, 18 years away, at which time I'll have 20 years service. Retiring then, I can take a reduced pension, and keep my FEHB, but forgo supplemental pension.
If I go to age 60, I'll have 20+ years service, and could then take a full pension, keep FEHB, get a supplemental pension until age 62.
It seems there will be zero additional retirement benefits for me to work past age 60 (beside tiny bumps in pension).
My FIRE date is currently between late 2022 to 2026. I would have to work between 11 to 15 more years to reach the first MRA threshold.
Thanks for those who brought up this topic. Made me really go research the federal benefits and do this little exercise for myself. This is reaffirms my decision that I should bear down and reach FIRE within the next five years, rather than let up a little and coast into retirement at my MRA.
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@erutio In a similar boat to you. Did a year w/the feds in 2011/2012, left. Came back 4 years ago. So I'm 34, have 5 years of service. I can't imagine staying until MRA. Assuming i just keep putting in what I'm putting in now (and then start throwing in my mortgage when it's paid off in 10 years) and get 8% return, I'll have somewhere around $3.6M in my TSP at MRA. Throw on top of that the FERS annuity, which at that point would be ~$40k/yr....that just seems like way more than I need. At a 4% withdrawal rate, that gives me $185k/yr in income. A little much given my current spending (w/3 kids at home) is ~$36k/yr if you take out my mortgage. So we'll see how long I stay. I like my job decently well. But I like a lot of other things, too:-)
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I had 15 years of service with about 7 years to go to reach MRA when I pulled the plug. I had a modest cushion beyond minimal FI, so there was no way I was going to hang around for 7 more years just to get more cushion that I don't really need. Sure, I could have had a more lavish retirement (eventually) if I had stayed, but I didn't want to piss away another 7 years when I could be enjoying life instead. I guess I just don't understand the golden handcuffs mentality.
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I could have had a more lavish retirement (eventually) if I had stayed, but I didn't want to piss away another 7 years when I could be enjoying life instead.
This is the problem everyone here faces, succinctly stated. Would you rather have more money for fewer years of retirement, or more years?
Once you cross a certain amount of money, "more" isn't necessarily notable better. That amount is subjective, but I suspect everyone here would prefer fifty years of retirement with fifty million dollars to one year of retirement with fifty one.
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I am retiring at my MRA in 2027 when I will turn 50. 100 weeks away—that will fly by. Congratulations.
Retiring at MRA in the Federal system probably is contrary to the “RE” aspect of FIRE, but I am curious how many Feds are shooting for it anyway. The health care benefits in particular are a draw. I just hit 100 weeks to go to my MRA, so it has been on my mind.
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I am retiring at my MRA in 2027 when I will turn 50. 100 weeks away—that will fly by. Congratulations.
Retiring at MRA in the Federal system probably is contrary to the “RE” aspect of FIRE, but I am curious how many Feds are shooting for it anyway. The health care benefits in particular are a draw. I just hit 100 weeks to go to my MRA, so it has been on my mind.
Thanks! Weeks do seem to go by pretty quickly.
It has been interesting to see the range of views. It seems apparent that some people relatively value security more, and others relatively value freedom more. I am in a constant state of re-evaluation.
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Because of my 12 hour shifts (plus one stupid 8/pay period), I figure I have to show up 42% of the year (if I only work half the holidays, take 4 sick days, and split my leave up between 12s and 8s to get 20 full days off). (ETA: this also assumes I don't work any OT. But, there is some really gravy OT and right now I'm just not turning that down.)
So, working full time, I still get 58% of my days for myself (travel, hang at home, do errands, whatever). Every 10 weeks, that time can come as one full week off (for 8 hours of leave) and/or 16 days off (for 16 hours of leave). If there is a specific time that I could use a week off that does not fall into those specific weeks, I can see if one of my coworkers will trade me a pay period or two.
Because of my job (think "fireman"-- I'm not a fireman, but I'm there to cover emergencies with some daily duties that don't take long, along with some other random work here and there), I also have a lot of downtime at work. Downtime where I can do some hobbies (one of my jobs involves sitting in a shack waiting to hit a button every now and then, so I often bring my knitting with me) as long as I can drop said hobby and jump into the fire (an emergency, or "check this when you get a moment" thing where you have to physically check something out).
And, since I get paid for what I can do in that emergency (something I have the specific knowledge required to handle), not for what I actually do during my shift (outside of mandatory rounds and documentation), I get paid pretty well.
So, my golden handcuffs are currently quite comfortable. They might feel tight every now and then, and there might come a time when I feel like I just have to cut them off because I can't do it anymore, but for now, they're just kind of pretty and not a burden. I'm setting myself up to leave early as I want, but for now I am also ok with just wearing them until they magically unlock with all the benefits at age 56 and 364 days.
If I had to spend this time in a cubicle (or even an office-- I am not made for desk/office work!), with 8 hour shifts, I'd be gnawing and clawing my way out, chewing off a hand if I needed to. So, for me, a lot depends on the job, shift, and work itself.
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I am retiring at my MRA in 2027 when I will turn 50. 100 weeks away—that will fly by. Congratulations.
Retiring at MRA in the Federal system probably is contrary to the “RE” aspect of FIRE, but I am curious how many Feds are shooting for it anyway. The health care benefits in particular are a draw. I just hit 100 weeks to go to my MRA, so it has been on my mind.
Thanks! Weeks do seem to go by pretty quickly.
It has been interesting to see the range of views. It seems apparent that some people relatively value security more, and others relatively value freedom more. I am in a constant state of re-evaluation.
We’re in a similar boat. I haven’t bothered to count the weeks but it’s less than 100 until the golden handcuffs drop off. If you asked me a year ago, I’d say I’d retire soon after. Now, I’m not so sure. I’m enjoying work more than I have in awhile. Change in management, change in outlook. I’m determined to enjoy what time I have left at work and oddly enough, it seems to be working. In the end I think it’s going to be what I want to do outside of work with family and outside activities that’ll be the deciding factor. Not enough time in the day to do it all.
Help me understand your reasoning for wanting to stay past MRA. I think you're the only one expressing that plan here. Most people are debating whether to retire early or stick it out a little longer until MRA for the benefits. No one has talked about staying past MRA. There is no benefit to staying past MRA (beside tiny bumps in pension) as far as I can tell.
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I am retiring at my MRA in 2027 when I will turn 50. 100 weeks away—that will fly by. Congratulations.
Retiring at MRA in the Federal system probably is contrary to the “RE” aspect of FIRE, but I am curious how many Feds are shooting for it anyway. The health care benefits in particular are a draw. I just hit 100 weeks to go to my MRA, so it has been on my mind.
Thanks! Weeks do seem to go by pretty quickly.
It has been interesting to see the range of views. It seems apparent that some people relatively value security more, and others relatively value freedom more. I am in a constant state of re-evaluation.
We’re in a similar boat. I haven’t bothered to count the weeks but it’s less than 100 until the golden handcuffs drop off. If you asked me a year ago, I’d say I’d retire soon after. Now, I’m not so sure. I’m enjoying work more than I have in awhile. Change in management, change in outlook. I’m determined to enjoy what time I have left at work and oddly enough, it seems to be working. In the end I think it’s going to be what I want to do outside of work with family and outside activities that’ll be the deciding factor. Not enough time in the day to do it all.
Help me understand your reasoning for wanting to stay past MRA. I think you're the only one expressing that plan here. Most people are debating whether to retire early or stick it out a little longer until MRA for the benefits. No one has talked about staying past MRA. There is no benefit to staying past MRA (beside tiny bumps in pension) as far as I can tell.
I think you directed this at @Buffalo Chip , but I will take a stab. It seems like BC isn’t too miserable at work, and so will want to weigh the extra money against the value of more freedom to do what he/she wants. It seems to me that the pension actually goes up quite a bit between MRA, if one has less than 30 years, and is retiring under MRA+10.
It is hard for me to anticipate how I will feel at that time. Maybe there will be a great sense of freedom from having a pension plus FEHB locked down? No need to accept BS? We will see.
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Thanks! Weeks do seem to go by pretty quickly.
It has been interesting to see the range of views. It seems apparent that some people relatively value security more, and others relatively value freedom more. I am in a constant state of re-evaluation.
Part of it depends on how much of your career has been with the Federal government though.
For me, personally, all but 2 years of my 17 year working career have been Fed (military and now civilian). I've still got another 22 years til MRA.
Assuming we keep investing as we have been since we found MMM, we'd end up with something like a 0.4% withdrawal rate before even considering the pension part (~$10M assets with a $40k withdrawal). I don't know what the actual pension would look like by then, but I imagine it'd drop it down to 0.2% or even 0.1%.
We could probably do a coast FI (stop contributing to any investment accounts) til MRA, but even then we'd be at about $4M. That gives us a 1% SWR before considering the pension.
As you can see, there's almost zero reason for me to stick around for MRA. Every scenario leads to working decades longer than necessary.
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I am retiring at my MRA in 2027 when I will turn 50. 100 weeks away—that will fly by. Congratulations.
Retiring at MRA in the Federal system probably is contrary to the “RE” aspect of FIRE, but I am curious how many Feds are shooting for it anyway. The health care benefits in particular are a draw. I just hit 100 weeks to go to my MRA, so it has been on my mind.
Thanks! Weeks do seem to go by pretty quickly.
It has been interesting to see the range of views. It seems apparent that some people relatively value security more, and others relatively value freedom more. I am in a constant state of re-evaluation.
My countdown spreadsheet says MRA is only 500 calendar days away. Seems pretty close...
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I am retiring at my MRA in 2027 when I will turn 50. 100 weeks away—that will fly by. Congratulations.
Retiring at MRA in the Federal system probably is contrary to the “RE” aspect of FIRE, but I am curious how many Feds are shooting for it anyway. The health care benefits in particular are a draw. I just hit 100 weeks to go to my MRA, so it has been on my mind.
Thanks! Weeks do seem to go by pretty quickly.
It has been interesting to see the range of views. It seems apparent that some people relatively value security more, and others relatively value freedom more. I am in a constant state of re-evaluation.
My countdown spreadsheet says MRA is only 500 calendar days away. Seems pretty close...
500 is very close! The last several will probably be like a kid waiting for Christmas morning, so I'd just plan to take those off with some kind of leave :)
I have well over 5k. Ideally, I could get an early out in about 3700 days...
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I have 9 years til I'm eligible. LEO, planning on retiring at 50 right now.
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I have 202 more days until I could execute the Fed Leo version of Barista FI. (I will have 20 years in but not age 50, but I could then switch to a non LEO part time job until age 50 in 2028 and still be good with our special retirement).
If not I have just over 66 months left until my LEO MRA in 2025. One thing I do need to address with my financial advisor over the next 5.5 years is how to plan to max out my TSP in 2025 as I will retire no later than July 31st. (no I won't be sticking around until the end of the year because it's not worth my time at that point.)
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There is Zero chance I stay until my MRA. That is 20 years away for me. Freaks me out to just think about that, and to think the majority of the people I work with will still be doing the same thing in 20 years just for a pension. I will hit my FIRE number in 7-10 years and I’m out. I like my job, but sitting most of my shift and a midnight shift every week is stupid. I wonder what the compound effect of that is over 20 years...
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This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. A few years ago I hated my office and would've said hell no to staying until my MRA (age 50, so about 15 more years to go). But my latest assignment is so much better, with great coworkers, more money and lots of extra perks. I actually enjoy going to the office most days now, so it seems silly to quit. I also have a baby, and will probably have another one in a few years, and while you certainly can have a vagabond lifestyle with really young kids, it's more complicated. So given my much improved job satisfaction and new family situation, I'm going to keep working for the immediate future despite being pretty much FI. My husband is a little more nervous about us both not working (he's currently a SAHD after a military / contractor career) so it'll be good to pad the stash for now. It's hard to imagine my job satisfaction will stay this high for 15 more years, so I am still skeptical I'll make it to my MRA, but who knows... glad I have both options. FEHB isn't as much of a concern as we use my husband's Tricare from his military retirement.
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Does anyone use the GRB site--Government Retirement Benefits Platform. It's fun to see how much you would get and when and how much your leave is worth, etc.
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Does anyone use the GRB site--Government Retirement Benefits Platform. It's fun to see how much you would get and when and how much your leave is worth, etc.
Is that the new EBIS site? (not at work, so can't check what it was called)
If so, yes! I have an excel spreadsheet with 10+ different tabs where I gather info from that, tsp, ssa, etc, to determine conservative benefits on my main spreadsheet page. I update it when we get our raises in June (if we get it then, sometimes they don't have our raises calculated until into the next year. We get retro-pay, but it's still very annoying.)
My spreadsheet main page summarizes retiring at three different ages: 46 (when I'm eligible for an early out), 51 (my personal ideal retirement age), and 57 (my MRA). Once I have all my new info, I go to firecalc to play there as well.
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Does anyone use the GRB site--Government Retirement Benefits Platform. It's fun to see how much you would get and when and how much your leave is worth, etc.
Yes, but not since the TSP 2FA went into effect. I hear they aren't always playing nice now.
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There is Zero chance I stay until my MRA. That is 20 years away for me. Freaks me out to just think about that, and to think the majority of the people I work with will still be doing the same thing in 20 years just for a pension. I will hit my FIRE number in 7-10 years and I’m out. I like my job, but sitting most of my shift and a midnight shift every week is stupid. I wonder what the compound effect of that is over 20 years...
Not only will they work until then for the pension, it'll likely be longer.
I've been listening a lot to older coworkers discussing retirement with each other. There's an awful lot of, "I hope you're not just counting on the pension, it's not nearly enough!"
I'm probably going to beat an elderly coworker to retirement because he can't pull the trigger.
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There is Zero chance I stay until my MRA. That is 20 years away for me. Freaks me out to just think about that, and to think the majority of the people I work with will still be doing the same thing in 20 years just for a pension. I will hit my FIRE number in 7-10 years and I’m out. I like my job, but sitting most of my shift and a midnight shift every week is stupid. I wonder what the compound effect of that is over 20 years...
Not only will they work until then for the pension, it'll likely be longer.
I've been listening a lot to older coworkers discussing retirement with each other. There's an awful lot of, "I hope you're not just counting on the pension, it's not nearly enough!"
I'm probably going to beat an elderly coworker to retirement because he can't pull the trigger.
Ugh, that is messing up my mind acct too
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There is Zero chance I stay until my MRA. That is 20 years away for me. Freaks me out to just think about that, and to think the majority of the people I work with will still be doing the same thing in 20 years just for a pension. I will hit my FIRE number in 7-10 years and I’m out. I like my job, but sitting most of my shift and a midnight shift every week is stupid. I wonder what the compound effect of that is over 20 years...
Not only will they work until then for the pension, it'll likely be longer.
I've been listening a lot to older coworkers discussing retirement with each other. There's an awful lot of, "I hope you're not just counting on the pension, it's not nearly enough!"
I'm probably going to beat an elderly coworker to retirement because he can't pull the trigger.
Ugh, that is messing up my mind acct too
So we had a Fed couple in the office. One retired over the summer. I was talking to the wife yesterday (and the one who pays the bills) basically about if the husband had gotten his first full/true payment (and I'm curious the take home amount) because I'm looking at how I need to work on restructuring in preparation for a smooth transition in 5 years. Mainly going from pay every 2 weeks to once a month. Coworker seemed to fix on how I could float the first few months of the likely reduced annuity because I have good credit as in I'd run up my credit card bill. Um so not my question.
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For me, personally, all but 2 years of my 17 year working career have been Fed (military and now civilian). I've still got another 22 years til MRA.
Assuming we keep investing as we have been since we found MMM, we'd end up with something like a 0.4% withdrawal rate before even considering the pension part (~$10M assets with a $40k withdrawal). I don't know what the actual pension would look like by then, but I imagine it'd drop it down to 0.2% or even 0.1%.
We could probably do a coast FI (stop contributing to any investment accounts) til MRA, but even then we'd be at about $4M. That gives us a 1% SWR before considering the pension.
As you can see, there's almost zero reason for me to stick around for MRA. Every scenario leads to working decades longer than necessary.
I'm in the same boat as you. MRA is... 25 years away :)
I'm in the middle of creating a spreadsheet that will calculate my reduced pension at 62 (or 60 with the 20 years of service), assuming 3% inflation, and reduce my expenses at 62 (or 60) by that much. That way I can play around with what year do I actually retire and I can easily see how much that effects me later on and help me define an actual FIRE number. I could do it manually year by year, but this is more fun.
But realistically, I like my job. A government engineer who actually gets to do design work! I'm probably going to milk this for another year or two, then start ramping down to part-time with a goal of eventually hitting 20 hrs/wk. I figure I can maintain that indefinitely. We have a couple (older) contractors who do that, so it's definitely a thing, just no one on the government side does it. The only problem is that employee FEHB payments go up in proportion to few hrs/wk worked, so it ends up being a pretty bad deal the lower you go.
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Does anyone use the GRB site--Government Retirement Benefits Platform. It's fun to see how much you would get and when and how much your leave is worth, etc.
@DeniseNJ do you have a link? The only thing I could find was either down or did not have a secure connection ("ERR_BAD_SSL_CLIENT_AUTH_CERT"). I am intrigued though.
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I think it's agency specific? Go to your main intranet page and under the employee stuff there should be a link.
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For me, personally, all but 2 years of my 17 year working career have been Fed (military and now civilian). I've still got another 22 years til MRA.
Assuming we keep investing as we have been since we found MMM, we'd end up with something like a 0.4% withdrawal rate before even considering the pension part (~$10M assets with a $40k withdrawal). I don't know what the actual pension would look like by then, but I imagine it'd drop it down to 0.2% or even 0.1%.
We could probably do a coast FI (stop contributing to any investment accounts) til MRA, but even then we'd be at about $4M. That gives us a 1% SWR before considering the pension.
As you can see, there's almost zero reason for me to stick around for MRA. Every scenario leads to working decades longer than necessary.
I'm in the same boat as you. MRA is... 25 years away :)
I'm in the middle of creating a spreadsheet that will calculate my reduced pension at 62 (or 60 with the 20 years of service), assuming 3% inflation, and reduce my expenses at 62 (or 60) by that much. That way I can play around with what year do I actually retire and I can easily see how much that effects me later on and help me define an actual FIRE number. I could do it manually year by year, but this is more fun.
But realistically, I like my job. A government engineer who actually gets to do design work! I'm probably going to milk this for another year or two, then start ramping down to part-time with a goal of eventually hitting 20 hrs/wk. I figure I can maintain that indefinitely. We have a couple (older) contractors who do that, so it's definitely a thing, just no one on the government side does it. The only problem is that employee FEHB payments go up in proportion to few hrs/wk worked, so it ends up being a pretty bad deal the lower you go.
Will you be able to hit 25 years before your MRA? I don't consider MRA a reduction in benefits, I consider staying until 62 (to get the 1.1%) a bonus. A bonus that is not worth me staying longer than my MRA. The supplement more than makes up for that extra .1% IMO (I'll already have 36 years in if I have to stay to my MRA, which is painful.)
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For me, personally, all but 2 years of my 17 year working career have been Fed (military and now civilian). I've still got another 22 years til MRA.
Assuming we keep investing as we have been since we found MMM, we'd end up with something like a 0.4% withdrawal rate before even considering the pension part (~$10M assets with a $40k withdrawal). I don't know what the actual pension would look like by then, but I imagine it'd drop it down to 0.2% or even 0.1%.
We could probably do a coast FI (stop contributing to any investment accounts) til MRA, but even then we'd be at about $4M. That gives us a 1% SWR before considering the pension.
As you can see, there's almost zero reason for me to stick around for MRA. Every scenario leads to working decades longer than necessary.
I'm in the same boat as you. MRA is... 25 years away :)
I'm in the middle of creating a spreadsheet that will calculate my reduced pension at 62 (or 60 with the 20 years of service), assuming 3% inflation, and reduce my expenses at 62 (or 60) by that much. That way I can play around with what year do I actually retire and I can easily see how much that effects me later on and help me define an actual FIRE number. I could do it manually year by year, but this is more fun.
But realistically, I like my job. A government engineer who actually gets to do design work! I'm probably going to milk this for another year or two, then start ramping down to part-time with a goal of eventually hitting 20 hrs/wk. I figure I can maintain that indefinitely. We have a couple (older) contractors who do that, so it's definitely a thing, just no one on the government side does it. The only problem is that employee FEHB payments go up in proportion to few hrs/wk worked, so it ends up being a pretty bad deal the lower you go.
Will you be able to hit 25 years before your MRA? I don't consider MRA a reduction in benefits, I consider staying until 62 (to get the 1.1%) a bonus. A bonus that is not worth me staying longer than my MRA. The supplement more than makes up for that extra .1% IMO (I'll already have 36 years in if I have to stay to my MRA, which is painful.)
I'll hit 25 years of service when I'm 45, and my MRA is 57. I'm not a LEO or ATC or anything. I'll happily be prepared for and jump on any VERA that comes my way, but I'm not counting on it as it is completely outside my control.
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For me, personally, all but 2 years of my 17 year working career have been Fed (military and now civilian). I've still got another 22 years til MRA.
Assuming we keep investing as we have been since we found MMM, we'd end up with something like a 0.4% withdrawal rate before even considering the pension part (~$10M assets with a $40k withdrawal). I don't know what the actual pension would look like by then, but I imagine it'd drop it down to 0.2% or even 0.1%.
We could probably do a coast FI (stop contributing to any investment accounts) til MRA, but even then we'd be at about $4M. That gives us a 1% SWR before considering the pension.
As you can see, there's almost zero reason for me to stick around for MRA. Every scenario leads to working decades longer than necessary.
I'm in the same boat as you. MRA is... 25 years away :)
I'm in the middle of creating a spreadsheet that will calculate my reduced pension at 62 (or 60 with the 20 years of service), assuming 3% inflation, and reduce my expenses at 62 (or 60) by that much. That way I can play around with what year do I actually retire and I can easily see how much that effects me later on and help me define an actual FIRE number. I could do it manually year by year, but this is more fun.
But realistically, I like my job. A government engineer who actually gets to do design work! I'm probably going to milk this for another year or two, then start ramping down to part-time with a goal of eventually hitting 20 hrs/wk. I figure I can maintain that indefinitely. We have a couple (older) contractors who do that, so it's definitely a thing, just no one on the government side does it. The only problem is that employee FEHB payments go up in proportion to few hrs/wk worked, so it ends up being a pretty bad deal the lower you go.
Will you be able to hit 25 years before your MRA? I don't consider MRA a reduction in benefits, I consider staying until 62 (to get the 1.1%) a bonus. A bonus that is not worth me staying longer than my MRA. The supplement more than makes up for that extra .1% IMO (I'll already have 36 years in if I have to stay to my MRA, which is painful.)
I'll hit 25 years of service when I'm 45, and my MRA is 57. I'm not a LEO or ATC or anything. I'll happily be prepared for and jump on any VERA that comes my way, but I'm not counting on it as it is completely outside my control.
That's about where I am too (I'll have my 25 in at 46).
Are you looking at the deferred pension then? (the "reduced pension" at such a high age threw me, but it makes since if you're calculating for a deferred pension)
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For those that are just around the corner from their MRA this article discusses the best dates to retire for 2020-2023.
https://www.myfederalretirement.com/best-dates-retire/ (https://www.myfederalretirement.com/best-dates-retire/)
I'm still 26 years away from MRA, so I should hit my FI goal well before then. That being said, I love working in financial management and there are thousands of FM jobs in my current location. So if I get a bad boss or the office turns bad, finding another office would not be difficult. If an opportunity comes up to work part time later in my career, I might just do that. Between compressed work schedule, working from home, 160 hours annual leave, 104 hours sick leave, and 10 holidays every year, it rarely feels like a long span between times I don't have to show up to the office for a week or more.
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I started my federal career at 38 so I will be here until age 60 (maybe 58 if a VERA presents itself and I think I can swing it). There's a huge difference in monthly income between retiring at 56 and two months and 60, mainly because of the reduction in pension vs full pension, and the number of years to multiple my high 3 by. If the supplement is still around when I retire in 2025, that's a nice parting bonus, but I'm not counting on it as it seems to be put on the chopping block every time they want to reduce fed pensions. If I wait until age 62 I could get ~$800/month more between increased pension and increased SS.
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That's about where I am too (I'll have my 25 in at 46).
Are you looking at the deferred pension then? (the "reduced pension" at such a high age threw me, but it makes since if you're calculating for a deferred pension)
Sorry for being unclear - by reduced I meant "reduced due to inflation" on the deferred pension, not the 5% a year reduction. The whole wait until 62 thing came about so that I would not have to take the 5% reduction. The way I figure, I have 3 options:
1) Work till my MRA of 57 and draw an immediate pension
2) Work until I have 20+ years of service, quit, and draw a deferred pension at age 60.
3) Work until I have less than 20 years of service, quite, and draw a deferred pension at age 62 so as to avoid the 5% reduction.
Option 2 seems most likely to me. I want to be able to be able to add the pension into my FIRE calculations, but in order to play with my FIRE date I need to be able to recalculate the different years of service, inflation reduction, and (theoretical) High-3 for each date. Not difficult, I know, but now that the holidays are over I might find some time to actually do it.
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33 Here. Started with the Feds in Fall of '10, so coming up on my 10-year anniversary.
I've been maxing out my TSP and just been focusing on pumping as much cash into tax-advantaged accounts as I can. I would love to be able to "retire" to a side-hustle type job in the ~2030ish time range.
I have some questions for the other Feds here. If I was to leave Federal service at 2030 at age 43 (20 years service), what benefits would I really be giving up by not officially "retiring" from Federal service?
I still have my TSP and can roll that over to an IRA and start a Roth ladder ASAP. I will still be able to collect Social Security at 67. I will still be able to collect my deferred annuity (starting at ages 57 to 62). I believe if I wait til age 62 to start collecting my annuity, I will get 20% of my high 3 annual salary. If I collect at 57, I get penalized at 5% a year.
So, the big thing that I will be giving up by not officially retiring, is the healthcare benefits right? Is this really the only thing? I currently pay ~$360/mo for family plan healthcare, and the Govt pays ~$1000 as their portion. Okay...$1000 a month that I don't have to pay is pretty nice, but in my research on the ACA subsidy...if in retirement I have a total income of ~$40,000 with a family of 4, I could receive a 1000-1100 monthly healthcare subsidy. So, basically, I would be paying the same amount of money for healthcare.
Am I missing some other benefit of "official" FERS retirement? Cause honestly, I see about 0% incentive (besides more years of TSP growth/contributions and the 1% annuity per year) for someone younger such as myself to move their proposed retirement from 40-45 to 57 MRA.
Any help/thoughts would be appreciated. If this needs it's own thread, let me know, but I figured any Feds on this board are already on this one.
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33 Here. Started with the Feds in Fall of '10, so coming up on my 10-year anniversary.
I've been maxing out my TSP and just been focusing on pumping as much cash into tax-advantaged accounts as I can. I would love to be able to "retire" to a side-hustle type job in the ~2030ish time range.
I have some questions for the other Feds here. If I was to leave Federal service at 2030 at age 43 (20 years service), what benefits would I really be giving up by not officially "retiring" from Federal service?
I still have my TSP and can roll that over to an IRA and start a Roth ladder ASAP. I will still be able to collect Social Security at 67. I will still be able to collect my deferred annuity (starting at ages 57 to 62). I believe if I wait til age 62 to start collecting my annuity, I will get 20% of my high 3 annual salary. If I collect at 57, I get penalized at 5% a year.
So, the big thing that I will be giving up by not officially retiring, is the healthcare benefits right? Is this really the only thing? I currently pay ~$360/mo for family plan healthcare, and the Govt pays ~$1000 as their portion. Okay...$1000 a month that I don't have to pay is pretty nice, but in my research on the ACA subsidy...if in retirement I have a total income of ~$40,000 with a family of 4, I could receive a 1000-1100 monthly healthcare subsidy. So, basically, I would be paying the same amount of money for healthcare.
Am I missing some other benefit of "official" FERS retirement? Cause honestly, I see about 0% incentive (besides more years of TSP growth/contributions and the 1% annuity per year) for someone younger such as myself to move their proposed retirement from 40-45 to 57 MRA.
Any help/thoughts would be appreciated. If this needs it's own thread, let me know, but I figured any Feds on this board are already on this one.
First, if you work until 57, retire, and start collecting a pension, the pension will not have the 5% reduction (because you will have worked more than 25 years). If you quit and do a deferred retirement, then yes, you'd be dealing with reductions.
The healthcare is one benefit of waiting. One thing I like about the healthcare is that you do not have to take medicare if you don't want to (I have no clue yet if I'll want to, but if things go as planned, I'll be retiring as a high earner, so would have to pay more than standard).
The other big benefit of waiting is the Social Security Supplement. This won't be as much as SS itself (well, depending on the state of SS), but is still a decent chunk of change. It also helps fill the "no COLA on pension until 62" gap. Finally, going at your MRA gives you instant access to all your tsp and pension, without penalties and reductions.
My job and schedule make the waiting worth it (even though I started at 21). However, if the healthcare-for-life and SSS ever go away, I may just retire much, much earlier.
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That's about where I am too (I'll have my 25 in at 46).
Are you looking at the deferred pension then? (the "reduced pension" at such a high age threw me, but it makes since if you're calculating for a deferred pension)
Sorry for being unclear - by reduced I meant "reduced due to inflation" on the deferred pension, not the 5% a year reduction. The whole wait until 62 thing came about so that I would not have to take the 5% reduction. The way I figure, I have 3 options:
1) Work till my MRA of 57 and draw an immediate pension
2) Work until I have 20+ years of service, quit, and draw a deferred pension at age 60.
3) Work until I have less than 20 years of service, quite, and draw a deferred pension at age 62 so as to avoid the 5% reduction.
Option 2 seems most likely to me. I want to be able to be able to add the pension into my FIRE calculations, but in order to play with my FIRE date I need to be able to recalculate the different years of service, inflation reduction, and (theoretical) High-3 for each date. Not difficult, I know, but now that the holidays are over I might find some time to actually do it.
My retirement spreadsheet has 10 tabs (and I only account for retiring at 46, 51, and 57 with an early out, so the full retirement benefits. I do run the EBIS (or whatever the new system is) to see how deferred retirements would work out, but since I'm not really considering deferred at the moment, they haven't made the spreadsheet). All that to say, I totally get it!
I've seen a lot of people get the VERA/VSIP the last few years, so while I can't hope for it too much, I haven't given up all hope.
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Seems like for most the question of whether to "hang on for MRA" is a big one since in most cases retiring at the MRA means very little retirement savings will be needed. Id imagine 5% contributions to the TSP to get the matches would be more than sufficient for most retiring at the MRA. The decision should be easier for FERS-FRAE employees who are contributing significantly more for the same FERS benefit: https://www.fedsmith.com/2019/08/19/means-fers-rae-fers-frae/
A part time schedule in order to stay long enough to meet the MRA seems like a good option for those that have the opportunity.
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33 Here. Started with the Feds in Fall of '10, so coming up on my 10-year anniversary.
I've been maxing out my TSP and just been focusing on pumping as much cash into tax-advantaged accounts as I can. I would love to be able to "retire" to a side-hustle type job in the ~2030ish time range.
I have some questions for the other Feds here. If I was to leave Federal service at 2030 at age 43 (20 years service), what benefits would I really be giving up by not officially "retiring" from Federal service?
I still have my TSP and can roll that over to an IRA and start a Roth ladder ASAP. I will still be able to collect Social Security at 67. I will still be able to collect my deferred annuity (starting at ages 57 to 62). I believe if I wait til age 62 to start collecting my annuity, I will get 20% of my high 3 annual salary. If I collect at 57, I get penalized at 5% a year.
So, the big thing that I will be giving up by not officially retiring, is the healthcare benefits right? Is this really the only thing? I currently pay ~$360/mo for family plan healthcare, and the Govt pays ~$1000 as their portion. Okay...$1000 a month that I don't have to pay is pretty nice, but in my research on the ACA subsidy...if in retirement I have a total income of ~$40,000 with a family of 4, I could receive a 1000-1100 monthly healthcare subsidy. So, basically, I would be paying the same amount of money for healthcare.
Am I missing some other benefit of "official" FERS retirement? Cause honestly, I see about 0% incentive (besides more years of TSP growth/contributions and the 1% annuity per year) for someone younger such as myself to move their proposed retirement from 40-45 to 57 MRA.
Any help/thoughts would be appreciated. If this needs it's own thread, let me know, but I figured any Feds on this board are already on this one.
Due to a low nominal income and the PTC that goes along with that, I pay considerably less for my ACA insurance than I used to pay for FEHB. And the insurance plan is just as good. But the quality of ACA plans varies considerably from state to state, so it's something you'd really want to look into for your particular situation. And of course there is the risk that the ACA rug might get yanked out from under us entirely.
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Is it not possible to stop working as a fed and take retirement at a later date?
I could have sworn that I read that if you have 5 years as a fed and stop working you can take retirement later once you reach retirement age?
Thought it also included the health benefits if you had fed benefits for a certain amount of time.
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Is it not possible to stop working as a fed and take retirement at a later date?
I could have sworn that I read that if you have 5 years as a fed and stop working you can take retirement later once you reach retirement age?
Thought it also included the health benefits if you had fed benefits for a certain amount of time.
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Yes, you can take a deferred retirement. No, health benefits do not apply to deferred retirements (you can only take the health benefits if you have been covered the last 5 years and you are eligible for an immediate pension.) There are some people who are able to leave federal service for many years, and then come back for one last round of five years in order to boost their high-three, and carry the health benefits into retirement. Of course, there is no guarantee you can get hired to do those five years.
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Are you sure you have to put in another 5 to get the Health?
“Examples #1 of Eligibility
Susan elected FEHB coverage on July 5, 2010, and had a "break in service" from Jan 1, 2016, to Jan 1, 2017. When she returned she elected to enroll from the time she was eligible Jan 1, 2017, and will remain enrolled until she retires Dec 1, 2018. She would be eligible to continue FEHB when she retires since she will have been continuously enrolled for 5 years of service prior to retirement.”
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So work as fed for 5 years and elect FEHB for the entire 5 years.
Break in service (FIRE for 5 years for example?)
Take whatever FED job you can get just before retirement age elect FEHB day one and retire a year later
The way I read the example this would work as you were continually enrolled in FEHB in the prior 5 years
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That's about where I am too (I'll have my 25 in at 46).
Are you looking at the deferred pension then? (the "reduced pension" at such a high age threw me, but it makes since if you're calculating for a deferred pension)
Sorry for being unclear - by reduced I meant "reduced due to inflation" on the deferred pension, not the 5% a year reduction. The whole wait until 62 thing came about so that I would not have to take the 5% reduction. The way I figure, I have 3 options:
1) Work till my MRA of 57 and draw an immediate pension
2) Work until I have 20+ years of service, quit, and draw a deferred pension at age 60.
3) Work until I have less than 20 years of service, quite, and draw a deferred pension at age 62 so as to avoid the 5% reduction.
Option 2 seems most likely to me. I want to be able to be able to add the pension into my FIRE calculations, but in order to play with my FIRE date I need to be able to recalculate the different years of service, inflation reduction, and (theoretical) High-3 for each date. Not difficult, I know, but now that the holidays are over I might find some time to actually do it.
I don't think option B works how you've laid it out. It only applies if you're doing an immediate retirement at age 60 with 20 years of service. You work from ages 20-40, defer it until 60, and avoid the penalty. You'd still be subject to the normal rules. Essentially, if you're deferring, the number of years makes no difference as long as you're over 5 (outside of calculating how much you get, obviously).
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Is it not possible to stop working as a fed and take retirement at a later date?
I could have sworn that I read that if you have 5 years as a fed and stop working you can take retirement later once you reach retirement age?
Thought it also included the health benefits if you had fed benefits for a certain amount of time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, you can take a deferred retirement. No, health benefits do not apply to deferred retirements (you can only take the health benefits if you have been covered the last 5 years and you are eligible for an immediate pension.) There are some people who are able to leave federal service for many years, and then come back for one last round of five years in order to boost their high-three, and carry the health benefits into retirement. Of course, there is no guarantee you can get hired to do those five years.
There is also apparently a way to postpone retirement payments for a couple of years. You wouldn't have the FEHB coverage during those years, but can pick it back up after that time period is up. I can see this being helpful if you want to go at MRA, but maybe need a few low-earning years to kick off a Roth conversion ladder. Or if you were at MRA, but didn't have the full time in service.
https://www.govexec.com/pay-benefits/2007/06/deferred-vs-postponed/24758/
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... removed for ease of reading...
That's about where I am too (I'll have my 25 in at 46).
Are you looking at the deferred pension then? (the "reduced pension" at such a high age threw me, but it makes since if you're calculating for a deferred pension)
Sorry for being unclear - by reduced I meant "reduced due to inflation" on the deferred pension, not the 5% a year reduction. The whole wait until 62 thing came about so that I would not have to take the 5% reduction. The way I figure, I have 3 options:
1) Work till my MRA of 57 and draw an immediate pension
2) Work until I have 20+ years of service, quit, and draw a deferred pension at age 60.
3) Work until I have less than 20 years of service, quite, and draw a deferred pension at age 62 so as to avoid the 5% reduction.
Option 2 seems most likely to me. I want to be able to be able to add the pension into my FIRE calculations, but in order to play with my FIRE date I need to be able to recalculate the different years of service, inflation reduction, and (theoretical) High-3 for each date. Not difficult, I know, but now that the holidays are over I might find some time to actually do it.
I don't think option B works how you've laid it out. It only applies if you're doing an immediate retirement at age 60 with 20 years of service. You work from ages 20-40, defer it until 60, and avoid the penalty. You'd still be subject to the normal rules. Essentially, if you're deferring, the number of years makes no difference as long as you're over 5 (outside of calculating how much you get, obviously).
I agree with "work from ages 20-40, defer it until 60, and avoid the penalty. You'd still be subject to the normal rules." Normal rules being no FEHB, no SS supplement, no COLA until I draw it, etc.
I don't quite understand how the number of years (of service) makes no difference, though. If I'm over 20 years of service I get to draw my pension at 60 with no penalty. If I'm under, I have to wait until 62 to avoid the penalty. That means two more years of inflation and living purely off the stash. I don't intend for 2 years to make or break my FIRE, but I do need to account for it.
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We've weighed our options and I'm leaving after the golden 5 yrs (plus buying back some military time) and when I'm of age, I'll collect a small annuity. Just too far away from my MRA for me to hang in there. We have a main military pension, and this will only be used as an extra money benefit.
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Woke up this a.m. and realized that I am now one year away from my MRA. That seems like a bit of a milestone. It will be interesting to see where we are at then, it terms of thinking about moving on to the next phase of life.
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1 year away is a great place to be!
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Waiting until MRA means an additional 2-years beyond what I have planned (from Feb 2022 to April 2024). If I'm enjoying work or my financial projections don't pan out then I'll probably stay until MRA.
If you are planning to retire at MRA and postpone your FERS annuity until 62 to avoid the 5%/year reduction, I'd recommend doing a Net Present Value (NPV) calculation. You might be surprised at the results.
In my case I come out $4K on the plus side taking the annuity at 57 even with the reduction. I assumed a life expectancy of 80 and a discount rate of 4% for the calculation. Using a different discount rate and life expectancy will of course change the results.
***Edited - forget to add this calculation is without the social security supplement since I won't have enough years in at MRA to qualify
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Woke up this a.m. and realized that I am now one year away from my MRA. That seems like a bit of a milestone. It will be interesting to see where we are at then, it terms of thinking about moving on to the next phase of life.
Congrats! That final year will fly by. I'm at 5.5 years to my MRA, gonna stick it out till then, which is late 2025. I don't mind my job right now, but working past my MRA... I can think of lots better things to do with my time. I'm extremely close to FI now, somewhat set back by the COVID situation, but hopefully will recover and hit FI by end of this year or sometime in 2021. Haven't given too much thought to what I might do after "retiring", but it'll rhyme with "whatever I damn well please."
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Accumulated annual leave plus accumulated sick leave now exceed the time until MRA...I don’t know why, but that seems significant. At this point, my accumulated annual leave plus what I will earn exceeds a quarter of my remaining weeks until MRA, so I could drop down to four day weeks if I truly wanted to, with leave to spare.
I guess I might keep working after that point, but I might also be asking myself, “why?”
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Accumulated annual leave plus accumulated sick leave now exceed the time until MRA...I don’t know why, but that seems significant. At this point, my accumulated annual leave plus what I will earn exceeds a quarter of my remaining weeks until MRA, so I could drop down to four day weeks if I truly wanted to, with leave to spare.
I guess I might keep working after that point, but I might also be asking myself, “why?”
Well, I'll sure as hell ask why. I mean, unless you just really love working, I can't imagine why you would continue to work after you're eligible for your pension, SS supplement, and retiree health insurance.
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Accumulated annual leave plus accumulated sick leave now exceed the time until MRA...I don’t know why, but that seems significant. At this point, my accumulated annual leave plus what I will earn exceeds a quarter of my remaining weeks until MRA, so I could drop down to four day weeks if I truly wanted to, with leave to spare.
I guess I might keep working after that point, but I might also be asking myself, “why?”
Well, I'll sure as hell ask why. I mean, unless you just really love working, I can't imagine why you would continue to work after you're eligible for your pension, SS supplement, and retiree health insurance.
I won’t be eligible for the SS supplement, since I would be MRA + 10. Unless there is a VERA, I think. We will see whether that happens.
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Good info in this thread! I need to go back and read in more detail when I have some time.
I have 17 years in, and plan to go at MRA or just a bit over (14 years, 1.5 months). I'm hoping at 57 I'm healthy and fit enough to go on to some sort of part-time horse related work. I'm a senior level ecologist so I would also have consulting options that would bring in more $$ per hour if I felt like doing some work in my professional line after retiring from my federal career. I'm lucky to get satisfaction out of my work, so I'm not in a rush to retire before MRA. So my strategy is to retire without a mortgage or any other debt, and my TSP stash filled up, and not touch it, or only use a small amount of it for my first few years of retirement. My plan is pretty rough though, and I need to sit down and do some more detailed calculations like some of you in this thread have spelled out.
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DoD Fed here with 11months and 20 days until I hit my MRA+10. I am so ready! COVID telework has felt like a preview of retirement albeit a more stressful one than I envision real retirement to be.
The pension is incrementally better than if I had already left, but FEHB is the real reason that I am hanging in there. With three school-age kids and a SAH spouse, there is not way I would be in a position to FIRE.
I just have to try to keep focused somehow as a manager and an employee to see it across the finish line next September. I wish there were away to move the clock ahead...
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I have 85 weeks to MRA + 10, so I'm definitely staying until then. We are pretty much FI -- husband is a 63-year-old Fed with 21 years in, so fully eligible for his pension. He's still working because his job is cushy and well-paid and we're in a pandemic so we can't travel, anyway. He's talking about retiring next summer. When he retires, he will have his Fed pension and may take Social Security also, and we already have over $1,000,000 in retirement accounts. At 4% withdrawal, that puts us at about $80,000 before taxes. We also have quite a lot in home equity.
In May 2022, I will hit my MRA, but I will only have 19 years, 2 months. Working that extra 10 months to get my 20 years of service is tempting, but I probably won't unless I can negotiate a lot of nice perks like extended telework and no business travel. I'm good at my job, but just really bored. The plan is to hit MRA and do a postponed retirement, starting the annuity and restarting my own FEHB again at 62. Between 57 and 62, I could go on my husband's FEHB and start taking TSP distributions (yes, it's allowed without penalty if you leave federal service at 55 or later). My back-of-the envelope calculation indicates that if I don't do those 10 months, I would be giving up about $160,000, between income not earned and TSP withdrawals taken during those 10 months, and the unreduced pension and Social Security Supplement I could have received between 60 and 62.
If we were sticking around in the DC area, staying for the extra 10 months would be a no-brainer, but we really want to move to France sooner rather than later. The extra money won't make a difference -- we will already have everything we need or want. Maybe some college costs for the granddaughters, but who knows if they will even care about going? It's not looking so good at the moment! So, it's early June 2022 unless I can telework for a couple months at a time from France during those last 10 months from June 2022 through March 2023.
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Hanging on for MRA and more. I'm just shy of 6 years away from MRA but plan to work to 62. It's possible I could retire at 60 depending on whether I am eligible for that supplemental ss thing, otherwise, 62. I am lucky that I generally enjoy my job but it can be stressful at times (deadlines and goals). Part of the explanation is that I'm more of a get rich slowly person, other part is that I got divorced a couple years ago where assets were split (but I kept the house). I've never been a big spender, but was late in getting a regular paycheck (took 3 years off between college and grad school, got a doctorate, did a 3 year post doc before getting a regular job). I'm also motivated to continue working because I promised DD I would help with her college costs because that's important to me.
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2593 days but who's counting.
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I'm in the Foreign Service, serving in Africa these days, and have 5+ years to go.
We're FIRE already, and we like the FS lifestyle, the cheap living & HH help in AF, and the free rent (which we value at $45k - tax-free - compared to living in DMV, thank you, American taxpayers!). Post ("hardship") differential on top of that, while taxed, helps us cover college tuition. Even before I became a Fed, we maxed both our Roth IRAs every. single. year. Except for my first year in the FS, we've always maxed my TSP and contributed heavily to DS's, and we've probably over-contributed; Our pensions will keep us from solving the RMD problem, as pensions fill the bottom tax brackets and keep us from making free or inexpensive Roth conversions. That's a nice problem to have, I suppose, and will force us to repay much of that free rent after we hit age 72.
My forced contributions to the FSPS (1.35% of pay) are relatively affordable compared to colleagues who joined after 2014 and pay 4.95%.
On healthcare, we don't have any chronic conditions and so use an HDHP with an HSA; I've grown my HSA investments to > $50k in under six years. We can always change to a Cadillac plan during open season, before or after retirement, should issues arise. Given the crazy US healthcare system, we value the FEHB more than the pension, frankly. That may change should we decide to retire abroad.
I do have some job stress, but nothing like what I'd face in the private sector, and we love traveling to new places and discovering different cultures.
While gigs in other Federal agencies aren't as good a deal as previously, the Foreign Circus still provides plenty of tools for reaching FI/RRE (relatively early).
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Has anyone looked at retiring early but then going back into federal service at their MRA to get the immediate pension, social security supplement, and FRHB? Obviously you couldn’t count on being rehires, but seems like it could work? If I, for example, leave at 50 and defer the pension, I wouldn’t get a pension until 62 and would lose FEHB. It’s tempting to stay until MRA...but hate to lose those seven years. Wha if I left at 50, then returned for a year at 56?
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Has anyone looked at retiring early but then going back into federal service at their MRA to get the immediate pension, social security supplement, and FRHB? Obviously you couldn’t count on being rehires, but seems like it could work? If I, for example, leave at 50 and defer the pension, I wouldn’t get a pension until 62 and would lose FEHB. It’s tempting to stay until MRA...but hate to lose those seven years. Wha if I left at 50, then returned for a year at 56?
You have to be enrolled in FEHB 5 years leading up to your retirement to qualify for FEHB in retirement. So you would need to return for 5 years at 52.
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I'm expecting to hit my fire number of $1.5M around 2032. I'm 32 now, putting that when I'm 44. At point I'll have 17 years in as a fed. I'm not really counting on the FEHB benefit in retirement, and my FI number factors in for a proportionally similar healthcare cost right now.
I'm counting on the years between 45 and 57 to be active and fun years where I can spend time with my family, travel well, and pursue my passions. Waiting for a 60% healthcare discount isn't going to deter that.
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Has anyone looked at retiring early but then going back into federal service at their MRA to get the immediate pension, social security supplement, and FRHB? Obviously you couldn’t count on being rehires, but seems like it could work? If I, for example, leave at 50 and defer the pension, I wouldn’t get a pension until 62 and would lose FEHB. It’s tempting to stay until MRA...but hate to lose those seven years. Wha if I left at 50, then returned for a year at 56?
You have to be enrolled in FEHB 5 years leading up to your retirement to qualify for FEHB in retirement. So you would need to return for 5 years at 52.
It's 5 of the last 5 yrs you were eligible. they don't count a break in service, so you could go back and work a year and still be good.
https://www.opm.gov/faqs/QA.aspx?fid=fd635746-de0a-4dd7-997d-b5706a0fd8d2&pid=86c7b3a5-d614-42eb-8070-9f3d3f5068dd
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Thanks Phenix and Denise NJ! I hadn’t thought through the five year FEHB requirement, so this is really helpful!
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Has anyone looked at retiring early but then going back into federal service at their MRA to get the immediate pension, social security supplement, and FRHB? Obviously you couldn’t count on being rehires, but seems like it could work? If I, for example, leave at 50 and defer the pension, I wouldn’t get a pension until 62 and would lose FEHB. It’s tempting to stay until MRA...but hate to lose those seven years. Wha if I left at 50, then returned for a year at 56?
You have to be enrolled in FEHB 5 years leading up to your retirement to qualify for FEHB in retirement. So you would need to return for 5 years at 52.
It's 5 of the last 5 yrs you were eligible. they don't count a break in service, so you could go back and work a year and still be good.
https://www.opm.gov/faqs/QA.aspx?fid=fd635746-de0a-4dd7-997d-b5706a0fd8d2&pid=86c7b3a5-d614-42eb-8070-9f3d3f5068dd
Thanks for the clarification!
It really surprises me that OPM interprets the 5 year FEHB requirement that way. In my head I've always read it as being 5 consecutive years.
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Given Trump’s EO creating Schedule F, I wonder if anyone who monitors this thread and was planning on going to MRA is having second thoughts about whether or not they will make it.
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Sorry I haven't been following the news, what's Schedule F and its impact on MRA?
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Sorry I haven't been following the news, what's Schedule F and its impact on MRA?
The Executive Order creates a new class of employee that doesn’t have civil service protections. (See, e.g., https://www.govexec.com/management/2020/10/salary-council-chairman-resigns-protest-trump-order-politicizing-federal-workforce/169551/). It doesn’t directly impact MRA, though it potentially creates a situation where a person could be terminated involuntarily prior to reaching MRA. I suppose everyone has to wait to find out if they are in the new category.
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Sorry I haven't been following the news, what's Schedule F and its impact on MRA?
The Executive Order creates a new class of employee that doesn’t have civil service protections. (See, e.g., https://www.govexec.com/management/2020/10/salary-council-chairman-resigns-protest-trump-order-politicizing-federal-workforce/169551/). It doesn’t directly impact MRA, though it potentially creates a situation where a person could be terminated involuntarily prior to reaching MRA. I suppose everyone has to wait to find out if they are in the new category.
I'd wait until after the election before worrying about that.
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Thanks, that's interesting. I think I'm with Monkey Uncle on this one.
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As of today, I am 100 days away from my MRA. Even if I don't pull the plug quite yet once I reach it, it will be interesting to see just how fast a 100-day countdown goes.
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As of today, I am 100 days away from my MRA. Even if I don't pull the plug quite yet once I reach it, it will be interesting to see just how fast a 100-day countdown goes.
That's wonderful!
It feels like I have forever to go until MRA. I started as a fed in 2012 a few days before I turned 23, so I will have 9 years of service this year but I'm only 31. I've considered the idea of getting to the 20 year mark and then retiring early, but deferring my pension until MRA. We would have the savings to make that work financially, but it is so tempting to just keep going to keep the health insurance. We'll see how I feel in another 11 years :D
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If you're so young, if feels like working just to make MRA isn't worth it, especially if you have the savings to make it work financially, as you say.
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As of today, I am 100 days away from my MRA. Even if I don't pull the plug quite yet once I reach it, it will be interesting to see just how fast a 100-day countdown goes.
This is awesome. Enjoy those last 100 days! It'll fly by, I'm guessing. As for me (also a Fed) I've got just under 5 years till MRA, planning to stick around until then. Per FIcalc, I'm already (or very close to) FI. Still, I figure I'll put in 4.5 more years and walk away with pension and a very good deal on health insurance for life. I'm not in love with the job, but it's not terrible and it's definitely worth putting in a few more years in order to snag full Fed retirement benefits. Enjoy your soon-to-be retired life!
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It feels like I have forever to go until MRA. I started as a fed in 2012 a few days before I turned 23, so I will have 9 years of service this year but I'm only 31. I've considered the idea of getting to the 20 year mark and then retiring early, but deferring my pension until MRA. We would have the savings to make that work financially, but it is so tempting to just keep going to keep the health insurance. We'll see how I feel in another 11 years :D
Same here! 9.5 years til MRA for me, so I'm not planning to stay that long. Just til age 50 with 20 yrs of service, which is in 1 year, 11 months. It still seems like forever, though. I do NOT know how people do 35+ years!
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35+ year person here... It's a long ass haul! I have 20+ years in now, and just crossed the "15 years to MRA" mark. I'm hoping for an early out (there have been a lot here the last few years). I'm trying to make a new house happen, and then I can continue to set myself up to take the early out if it's ever offered, ideally around 51/52. I'll go to MRA otherwise, since I have a pretty sweet gig and a great schedule (after a few years of frequently getting 1 to 2 weeks off, I don't know how I managed only getting 3 day weekends for so many years.)
I want to never have to think about money in retirement, and am on the "fatFIRE" path. My schedule really helps make that work for me.
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I'm not fire, just get rich slow. Which means my plan is to retire at 62 (which to me still feels early as both parents worked until their early or mid 70's). So yes the federal benefits are a big draw. I will hit mre in about 5 years and 62 in 9. Part of me is curious to figure out how I could "retire" at mre, but doesn't seem feasible unless something significantly changes (income goes up, expenses go down, partnered, etc). I'm fine with it.
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I'm not sure what the future holds career-wise. Love the job, love the people, it's very satisfying work, the pay:stress ratio is amazing, super flexible, able to be 100% remote, only get the 6 hr AL/pp but already feel with the maxiflex schedule I have more time off than I know what to do with (I'm sure I will find more ways as I get older!). So not really in a hurry to move outside the feds or to retire but I know things may change. Also it seems harder to get into the same line of work now. Now we are only hiring badass PhDs whereas when I was brought on I had a Master's but we also hired people with just an undergrad degree. So if I do move around, I would think twice about the barriers to entry unless changing fields.
If I do work until MRA at 57 I would be at 33 years assuming no gap. Barring economic or personal health catastrophes, I would pull the plug then and let the supplement kick in and work its magic for 5 years. Or maybe I have no possible way to spend all the money I've accumulated and retire earlier, who knows. I will continue to save as if FIRE is a goal and continue to assess as I get older.
Side note: I wonder if being a member of the 0.8 FERS rather than the 4.4 group makes the golden handcuffs stronger. That is, if you retire super early and want a refund of your pension contributions, the 0.8 refund is a pittance whereas the 4.4 is a chunk of change. The 0.8 people might hold out to milk what they can from their pension since the employer pays a higher proportion.
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2472 days here. Hanging on by the skin my teeth until 50. I do thank Past Self for pursuing a good government job with what I thought were good benefits in my early 20s. Current Self has just received 2 doses of Pfizer vaccine for essential in-person work. The last year at work has NOT been pretty or pleasurable but it did have a lot of gallows humor and regular, reliable paychecks when I know so many others were not so lucky in my community.
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7 months and 21 days to go until MRA! I am very ready to pull the plug.
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I know I’d be more likely to cut and run with the 4.4 contribution.
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I know I’d be more likely to cut and run with the 4.4 contribution.
I fall in the FERS-FRAE group. Anybody hired prior to 2013 pays 0.8%, anybody hired in 2013 pays 3.1% (FERS-RAE), and anybody hired since 2014 (FERS-FRAE) pays 4.4%.
At 4.4%, I would be willing to forgo the pension in exchange for a better TSP match.
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What's really a kick in the teeth is that I didn't understand the different SCDs when I first joined. Buying back my military time put my leave SCD in the 0.8% timeframe, so I thought my contribution would be from that plan as well. Nice little 3.6% decrease to paycheck I hadn't accounted for!
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I know I’d be more likely to cut and run with the 4.4 contribution.
I fall in the FERS-FRAE group. Anybody hired prior to 2013 pays 0.8%, anybody hired in 2013 pays 3.1% (FERS-RAE), and anybody hired since 2014 (FERS-FRAE) pays 4.4%.
At 4.4%, I would be willing to forgo the pension in exchange for a better TSP match.
And to add insult to injury, FERS contributions are with after-tax dollars. They reduce the taxable basis of your pension, but that may not be a good trade if you expect a lower tax rate in retirement.
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I know I’d be more likely to cut and run with the 4.4 contribution.
I fall in the FERS-FRAE group. Anybody hired prior to 2013 pays 0.8%, anybody hired in 2013 pays 3.1% (FERS-RAE), and anybody hired since 2014 (FERS-FRAE) pays 4.4%.
At 4.4%, I would be willing to forgo the pension in exchange for a better TSP match.
And to add insult to injury, FERS contributions are with after-tax dollars. They reduce the taxable basis of your pension, but that may not be a good trade if you expect a lower tax rate in retirement.
can you explain: "They reduce the taxable basis of your pension?"
I am reading that the FERS pension distributions are taxable.
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I know I’d be more likely to cut and run with the 4.4 contribution.
I fall in the FERS-FRAE group. Anybody hired prior to 2013 pays 0.8%, anybody hired in 2013 pays 3.1% (FERS-RAE), and anybody hired since 2014 (FERS-FRAE) pays 4.4%.
At 4.4%, I would be willing to forgo the pension in exchange for a better TSP match.
And to add insult to injury, FERS contributions are with after-tax dollars. They reduce the taxable basis of your pension, but that may not be a good trade if you expect a lower tax rate in retirement.
can you explain: "They reduce the taxable basis of your pension?"
I am reading that the FERS pension distributions are taxable.
Each distribution that you get will have a taxable and non-taxable portion. The contributions that you've already paid taxes on won't be taxed again. But those contributions are now amortized over your life expectancy instead of all at once like it used to be. It works out to be a tiny bit of untaxed income.
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As of today, I am 100 days away from my MRA. Even if I don't pull the plug quite yet once I reach it, it will be interesting to see just how fast a 100-day countdown goes.
@frugalecon congratulations on the countdown! How fast is it going?
What are your post MRA-plans?
What were the keys to reaching your financial goals?
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My fed career was miserable so no way would I have stuck it out to MRA. I did almost 15 years then bailed recently. I knew all along I couldn’t stay so I was saving /investing a lot the entire time. Many people in my former office stay well past retirement eligibility because they can’t seem to imagine a life where their identity isn’t wrapped up in the job. It’s fascinating. My coworkers still think I’ll be back. Oh hell no.
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I've thought about hanging on, but I just don't see the point at all.
Started Fed in 2010, plan on hitting FI around 2030ish @ age 45. At that point, I'll have 20 years in. My TSP should be fairly healthy, along with both mine and my spouses Roth IRAs. We plan on utilizing my spouses 457B for 5 years after FIRE, while we do our Roth IRA ladder. Then live off the TSP rollover/Roth IRA ladder for a decade or so, while I continue to work a small hobby business. Then, my FERS pension will kick in, my SS, and spouses pension as well. At 62, those three annuities should be around $6500/mo.
Of course healthcare is an issue, but my belief is that US is headed towards more socialized healthcare and I plan to utilize the ACA/whatever is available in 10 years. If the healthcare thing doesn't work out, I'll probably try to move to a lighter stress telework only position, or just keep working til I feel comfortable FIREing and paying full OOP for healthcare. That's why I don't see the point in sticking around. If an ACA plan has a comparable cost/coverage of my FEHB, and I already have enough to FIRE, what's the point?
Please poke holes in my plan!
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I've thought about hanging on, but I just don't see the point at all.
Started Fed in 2010, plan on hitting FI around 2030ish @ age 45. At that point, I'll have 20 years in... Then, my FERS pension will kick in, my SS, and spouses pension as well. At 62, those three annuities should be around $6500/mo.
Please poke holes in my plan!
That's almost the same timeline I'm on (Fed starting in 2009). How much is your spouse's expected pension? I'll just make up a number and estimate your high 3 to be $100k, so your pension would be $20k starting at age 60 (deferred pensions start at 60 rather than 62 when you have 20 years). That isn't inflation adjusted until you start receiving it, so in real terms, if inflation averaged 2.5% you'd be getting ~$1,150/ month.
Promised SS benefits on the earnings I made up if taken @ 62 are something like $1,300/ month. SS isn't going away but expecting 100% 30+ years from now might be a little optimistic.
For myself, I like the idea of waiting to the 20 year mark because it adds non-trivial value to the pension, getting it at 60 rather than 62 (and 2 fewer years of inflation costs). Where I might be borderline FI @ 15-18 years, I'll be securely so at 20. I see the 20 year pension + early SS as enough to cover bare bones expenses in a LCOL, so at traditional retirement age I just need savings to cover luxuries and unforeseen expenses.
You can certainly retire on the suggested timeline. I just wonder if you're overvaluing the deferred pension.
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I've thought about hanging on, but I just don't see the point at all.
Started Fed in 2010, plan on hitting FI around 2030ish @ age 45. At that point, I'll have 20 years in... Then, my FERS pension will kick in, my SS, and spouses pension as well. At 62, those three annuities should be around $6500/mo.
Please poke holes in my plan!
That's almost the same timeline I'm on (Fed starting in 2009). How much is your spouse's expected pension? I'll just make up a number and estimate your high 3 to be $100k, so your pension would be $20k starting at age 60 (deferred pensions start at 60 rather than 62 when you have 20 years). That isn't inflation adjusted until you start receiving it, so in real terms, if inflation averaged 2.5% you'd be getting ~$1,150/ month.
Promised SS benefits on the earnings I made up if taken @ 62 are something like $1,300/ month. SS isn't going away but expecting 100% 30+ years from now might be a little optimistic.
For myself, I like the idea of waiting to the 20 year mark because it adds non-trivial value to the pension, getting it at 60 rather than 62 (and 2 fewer years of inflation costs). Where I might be borderline FI @ 15-18 years, I'll be securely so at 20. I see the 20 year pension + early SS as enough to cover bare bones expenses in a LCOL, so at traditional retirement age I just need savings to cover luxuries and unforeseen expenses.
You can certainly retire on the suggested timeline. I just wonder if you're overvaluing the deferred pension.
Thanks, I didn't know that about the 60/62 thing with the 20 year mark. I will definitely hit 20 years then, probably call it quits soon after. My high 3 will probably be closer to 135/140 by the time 2030 rolls around. So around $2300/mo. My wife's pension will be $2050/2150 month depending if she collects it at 60/62. She's not working right now, but I expect her to go back for a while sometime over the next 10 years. That pension will probably grow to $2500+/mo.
My SSA.gov retirement estimator says at 62, my monthly benefit is currently $2000/mo, but now that I think more about it, that's probably taking into account working from 45 to 62. So, SSN is probably closer to 1300 like you said than 2000+. Anyway to figure that out? How did you get to 1300? And yes, I am optimistic, haha! I figure we will have a pretty decent base income at 60/62 based only on our pensions/ss. The investments should hopefully continue to grow through the 45 to 60 period and provide even more cushion from 60+. I already run a small side-business currently and plan to continue after I fire @ 45ish, so there will be some additional income coming in throughout the timeline.
What are your thoughts on FEHB vs ACA for FIRE?
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My SSA.gov retirement estimator says at 62, my monthly benefit is currently $2000/mo, but now that I think more about it, that's probably taking into account working from 45 to 62. So, SSN is probably closer to 1300 like you said than 2000+. Anyway to figure that out? How did you get to 1300?
What are your thoughts on FEHB vs ACA for FIRE?
$2,000 @ 62 is pretty close to the max, so that was probably assuming you work til then, but yours would be more than the $1300 I said since your wages are higher that I guessed. IIRC on ssa.gov you can enter the age you plan to stop working to get the actual number.
I haven't really looked into health insurance because as long as job conditions stay similar what I really want to do is go part time 3 days a week and stay til MRA. My agency handbook says anyone can do it subject to management approval. It's rarely requested and the times that I've heard that it was were 1) two people caring for young kids and 2) a guy on dialysis, so I don't know how likely I'll be to get approved. I don't have big plans for endless free time, so if they deny me, I'll have to decide whether I want to A) quit and figure out something meaningful to do or B) work a fairly easy 40 hour job with six weeks vacation and be rich and give lots to charity. It'll be probably 3-6 years yet before I request to go part time.
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I'm also at about 12 years in. I'm thinking about retiring before I hit 20 years in (which would be still 10 years away from MRA). I assumed being sub-20 years made it not worth it to take the deferred annuity option and that I'd be better off taking the payout and investing it.
Does anyone know how to do the math on that? And on how to calculate if it's worth working parttime for a couple years to get the 20 years to take the deferred annuity?
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I'm also at about 12 years in. I'm thinking about retiring before I hit 20 years in (which would be still 10 years away from MRA). I assumed being sub-20 years made it not worth it to take the deferred annuity option and that I'd be better off taking the payout and investing it.
Does anyone know how to do the math on that? And on how to calculate if it's worth working parttime for a couple years to get the 20 years to take the deferred annuity?
It's fairly straight forward to calculate, but you have to make assumptions about investment returns and more importantly, inflation. If you quit at 40, your pension starting at 62 is worth 20% less if intervening inflation is 3% vs 2%.
The way I estimate it is to calculate the future value of the pension as
1) [nominal pension] / 4% = value at the time you start drawing it
2) figure from step 1 is in nominal dollars, to adjust for inflation, divide figure from step 1 by [(1 + inflation rate) ^ number of years between quitting and getting the pension]
3) divide figure from step by by [(1 + real investment returns) ^ number of years between quitting and pension]
Since the pension is not inflation adjusted and we're using real investment returns, both steps 2 and 3 are needed. This is not double counting inflation.
Assume $100k salary and 18 years of service at age 40, 2.5% inflation and 5% real investment returns you'd have
1) $18k pension / 4% = $450k value in nominal dollars
2) $450k / 1.025^22 years = $261k value in today's dollars (you start the pension @ age 62, 22 years after quitting)
3) $261k / 1.05^22 years = $89k pension value at age 40
Changing your investment and inflation assumptions will drastically change the results. If you're in the 0.8% contribution camp you definitely want the deferred pension regardless of how many years you have though. The deferred pension is worth several times what your contributions are.
At the $100k salary level, the difference in net present value between 19 years and 20 years is probably somewhere in the ballpark of $40k. It's noteworthy but it's not going to make or break you if you're FI without the pension.
I'm giving myself the 20 year timeline because I don't know what I'd do with my time if I retired sooner and, especially if you're on more of a leanfire budget, the odds of your life (and spending) significantly changing should weigh more prominent than whether you can withdraw 3% or 4% (see recently discussed Dr Doom blog post https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/dr-doom-posted-a-new-blog-entry!/). Excluding health insurance, I spend <$30k as a healthy single person, but I'm definitely not retiring on $750k at 35.
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What are your thoughts on FEHB vs ACA for FIRE?
I left federal service well before MRA and have been on ACA insurance for 3+ years now. It's impossible to generalize because so much depends on your personal financial situation and the ACA plans that are available where you live (and also your risk tolerance for high-deductible plans vs. Cadillac plans).
For me, the ACA has worked out great. My MAGI (modified adjusted gross income) is low enough that I qualify for a very low cost silver plan (one year it was essentially free). Through creative withdrawals from investments, I can engineer my MAGI such that it maximizes the premium tax credit and cost sharing for silver plans. Overall, ACA insurance has been substantially less expensive than what I was paying for FEHB, and I have basically the same BCBS plan I had when I was a fed. Of course, great plans like that aren't available everywhere.
You can get a pretty good idea of cost by estimating what your MAGI will be after you fire, and then running through the plan finder on healthcare.gov. That will also give you a good idea of the kinds of plans that are available in your area. Of course, the plans can change from year to year.
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I actually worked two years after my MRA - I generally enjoyed my job. The health insurance is what made it possible for me to retire at 59. I haven’t decided yet about when to take SS. With my pension, annuity supplement and TSP, I am doing just fine. Twenty years from now, I hope we will have better public insurance- but it is wonderful to have it now.
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I mentioned before, I’m a SCE so my MRA is at 25 years of service and I’ll still be quite young (47). I’m sticking around another 51 months to get FEHB. But being FI now did just allow me to put in for a PCS to San Francisco because it just sounds like fun for the next few years.
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What are your thoughts on FEHB vs ACA for FIRE?
As a Foreign Service Fed, I'm in a different pension system and qualify for an immediate pension and "social security offset" at age 50 with 20 years of service. The "social security offset" is an amount paid to an annuitant who hasn't yet reached age 62 and therefore cannot claim SS benefits, and it expires at age 62.
Given my earlyish access to my pension and the looming tax costs of RMDs on my TSP and other traditional holdings, I'll want to maximize my Roth conversions in retirement. This also makes it more difficult to "manage" my AGI and keep my ACA cost low. Consequently, the FEHB has a bigger benefit to me.
Currently we're enrolled in the GEHA HDHP with an FSA, and I make FSA contributions directly from payroll, which reduces my current Medicare and OASDI payroll taxes. It also consequently reduces my SS benefit down the line, but I'm not so worried about that.
I've also paid all our non-covered / deductible medical expenses out of pocket and invested all the FSA funds in index ETFs. In six-plus years of a rising market, I've amassed nearly $70k in the Ultimate Retirement Account (https://www.madfientist.com/ultimate-retirement-account/).
If we remain healthy and don't need care for chronic medical issues, we'll continue the HDHP into retirement, and continue to make HSA contributions until reaching age 65. The FEHB remains a great benefit to us.
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As of today, I am 100 days away from my MRA. Even if I don't pull the plug quite yet once I reach it, it will be interesting to see just how fast a 100-day countdown goes.
@frugalecon congratulations on the countdown! How fast is it going?
What are your post MRA-plans?
What were the keys to reaching your financial goals?
Hi EF,
My “countdown clock” is now at 21 days, and the time has gone fairly quickly. Partly that is because I have been INSANELY busy at work. Major deadlines. I haven’t decided yet exactly what my approach will be after MRA. I am not pulling the plug quite yet; I am involved in something where my role is pretty critical for at least the next several months, and I don’t want to leave my colleagues in the lurch. Also, I want to see how my mental frame changes when I can literally walk out at any time. Is that freeing? I don’t know. Finally, I am still at 100% telework, and it’s unclear how much things will be opening up this summer anyway.
In terms of how I have achieved goals, it has really been a matter of “setting it and forgetting it.” Savings is completely automated, and I have had an investment plan that I am comfortable with.
Cheers,
FE
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As of today, I am 100 days away from my MRA. Even if I don't pull the plug quite yet once I reach it, it will be interesting to see just how fast a 100-day countdown goes.
@frugalecon congratulations on the countdown! How fast is it going?
What are your post MRA-plans?
What were the keys to reaching your financial goals?
Hi EF,
My “countdown clock” is now at 21 days, and the time has gone fairly quickly. Partly that is because I have been INSANELY busy at work. Major deadlines. I haven’t decided yet exactly what my approach will be after MRA. I am not pulling the plug quite yet; I am involved in something where my role is pretty critical for at least the next several months, and I don’t want to leave my colleagues in the lurch. Also, I want to see how my mental frame changes when I can literally walk out at any time. Is that freeing? I don’t know. Finally, I am still at 100% telework, and it’s unclear how much things will be opening up this summer anyway.
In terms of how I have achieved goals, it has really been a matter of “setting it and forgetting it.” Savings is completely automated, and I have had an investment plan that I am comfortable with.
Cheers,
FE
I hear you on the heavy demands and not wanting to leave your colleagues in the lurch. I hope you're doing valuable work and that the pace slows a bit. Also, do share with us how things go once you pass the magic milestone - will your attitude change? Will you have less shits to give? Inquiring minds...
Automating my savings really helped reinforce the progress I'm making in my TSP/Roth IRA/HSA... and keeps the money out of my wallet where it might tempt me.
Edited to add - I just checked my TSP and my last twelve-month returns ending 03/31/2021 were 66.61%.
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MRA has arrived...
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I'm only around the 3 year mark and I'm ready to pull the plug. Most of my department was contracted out ~20 years ago and it's created this very toxic us vs. them culture where many of the contractors feel like the government is the enemy. Everyone at a management level drinks the Kool-Aid even if the regular workers may genuinely want to do a good job.
I'm on the 5th contractor counterpart in 3 years and every single one has been a terrible manager. The latest seems to be the worst yet and has created a very bad working environment for all the people who are supposed to be doing the work I'm responsible for. I would need 8-10 trained people and a few years to catch up on the 20 years of neglect. Instead I've got 5 that are mostly untrained and I'm the one who ends up training them and doing a fair amount of the work because their management is too busy dealing with HR BS. I'm actually in the process of hiring the best person they had as GS employee. They fired her for some made up garbage about not reporting possible COVID symptoms but really because she called people on their BS and not following written regulations. It's going to be a real thumb in their eye and I'm told it caused quite a kerfuffle when I briefed my plan to senior leadership in a meeting recently (who all approved it).
My boss just left for another agency on Friday but she has 10+ years of federal service. There's no way I'd stick it out until MRA and even the minimal pension at 5 years is not an incentive for me. I've got health insurance through the National Guard (2 years from retirement eligibility) so the benefits aren't worth it to me. At 4.4% of my paycheck to get 1%/year, the pension is definitely not worth it. The TSP match has been nice but I'm ready to take those FERS contributions and run. My wife and I are in the process of buying a business and once that closes I'm out the door as soon as I can. I feel somewhat bad about leaving behind a mess, but short of senior leadership finally recognizing that this work can't be successfully contracted out, I can't get much done.
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I'm only around the 3 year mark and I'm ready to pull the plug. Most of my department was contracted out ~20 years ago and it's created this very toxic us vs. them culture where many of the contractors feel like the government is the enemy. Everyone at a management level drinks the Kool-Aid even if the regular workers may genuinely want to do a good job.
I'm on the 5th contractor counterpart in 3 years and every single one has been a terrible manager. The latest seems to be the worst yet and has created a very bad working environment for all the people who are supposed to be doing the work I'm responsible for. I would need 8-10 trained people and a few years to catch up on the 20 years of neglect. Instead I've got 5 that are mostly untrained and I'm the one who ends up training them and doing a fair amount of the work because their management is too busy dealing with HR BS. I'm actually in the process of hiring the best person they had as GS employee. They fired her for some made up garbage about not reporting possible COVID symptoms but really because she called people on their BS and not following written regulations. It's going to be a real thumb in their eye and I'm told it caused quite a kerfuffle when I briefed my plan to senior leadership in a meeting recently (who all approved it).
My boss just left for another agency on Friday but she has 10+ years of federal service. There's no way I'd stick it out until MRA and even the minimal pension at 5 years is not an incentive for me. I've got health insurance through the National Guard (2 years from retirement eligibility) so the benefits aren't worth it to me. At 4.4% of my paycheck to get 1%/year, the pension is definitely not worth it. The TSP match has been nice but I'm ready to take those FERS contributions and run. My wife and I are in the process of buying a business and once that closes I'm out the door as soon as I can. I feel somewhat bad about leaving behind a mess, but short of senior leadership finally recognizing that this work can't be successfully contracted out, I can't get much done.
That sounds like an awful environment. I can only imagine how your group scores on the Federal Employee Viewpoint Survey. I definitely agree that the FERS pension is a lot less valuable when your contribution is 4.4% rather than 0.7%. That was a really big pay cut for new hires when that changed, especially since that is paid with after-tax dollars.
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Four weeks post-MRA now. It is a little weird, to still be at work when I know that I can leave at any time. I was really pissed for a week or so, at the thought of still being at work, but have now entered a state of Zen calm. Talked with the spouse, who may want to work 1-2 more years. I think I will just keep playing it by ear, and seeing how I feel. Having rerun the numbers, we are in a good position to carry on with the same disposable income as now when we are working, so continuing in the job is really just about padding the safety cushion. Looking at the retirement tax picture, it is really fascinating to see just how much in tax a person doesn’t pay once the W-2 life is over. The FICA taxes are a huge line item.
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Four weeks post-MRA now. It is a little weird, to still be at work when I know that I can leave at any time. I was really pissed for a week or so, at the thought of still being at work, but have now entered a state of Zen calm. Talked with the spouse, who may want to work 1-2 more years. I think I will just keep playing it by ear, and seeing how I feel. Having rerun the numbers, we are in a good position to carry on with the same disposable income as now when we are working, so continuing in the job is really just about padding the safety cushion. It is really fascinating to see just how much in tax a person doesn’t pay once the W-2 life is over. The FICA taxes especially are a huge line item.
Thanks for sharing your experience, glad to hear you've reached an equilibrium. I hope that means you'll have no need to post an Epic FU story. Keep us posted in any case.
I hadn't thought about the disappearance of OASDI & Medicare taxes after W-2 employment ends. Of course, if you start your own business, you get to pay both halves (employer's + employee's).
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Four weeks post-MRA now. It is a little weird, to still be at work when I know that I can leave at any time. I was really pissed for a week or so, at the thought of still being at work, but have now entered a state of Zen calm. Talked with the spouse, who may want to work 1-2 more years. I think I will just keep playing it by ear, and seeing how I feel. Having rerun the numbers, we are in a good position to carry on with the same disposable income as now when we are working, so continuing in the job is really just about padding the safety cushion. It is really fascinating to see just how much in tax a person doesn’t pay once the W-2 life is over. The FICA taxes especially are a huge line item.
Thanks for sharing your experience, glad to hear you've reached an equilibrium. I hope that means you'll have no need to post an Epic FU story. Keep us posted in any case.
I hadn't thought about the disappearance of OASDI & Medicare taxes after W-2 employment ends. Of course, if you start your own business, you get to pay both halves (employer's + employee's).
If you file as an S-Corp you get to avoid part of the payroll tax on profits. You have to pay yourself a reasonable salary but if you have a business making $200k in profit you can pay $75k as salary to the owner and then the other $125k as a profit distribution.
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What are your thoughts on FEHB vs ACA for FIRE?
I left federal service well before MRA and have been on ACA insurance for 3+ years now. It's impossible to generalize because so much depends on your personal financial situation and the ACA plans that are available where you live (and also your risk tolerance for high-deductible plans vs. Cadillac plans).
For me, the ACA has worked out great. My MAGI (modified adjusted gross income) is low enough that I qualify for a very low cost silver plan (one year it was essentially free). Through creative withdrawals from investments, I can engineer my MAGI such that it maximizes the premium tax credit and cost sharing for silver plans. Overall, ACA insurance has been substantially less expensive than what I was paying for FEHB, and I have basically the same BCBS plan I had when I was a fed. Of course, great plans like that aren't available everywhere.
This is really good info, since it's pretty much what I plan to do...retire at age 50 (but not at MRA) and then use ACA instead of FEHB. If I can swing it, I'll work part time to keep my FEHB but there's no guarantee that will happen.
I'm currently in northern Virginia, and contemplating moving to WVA. I wonder how the ACA plans compare between the states. Could make a big difference (not to mention cost of living being lower in general in WVA).
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What are your thoughts on FEHB vs ACA for FIRE?
I left federal service well before MRA and have been on ACA insurance for 3+ years now. It's impossible to generalize because so much depends on your personal financial situation and the ACA plans that are available where you live (and also your risk tolerance for high-deductible plans vs. Cadillac plans).
For me, the ACA has worked out great. My MAGI (modified adjusted gross income) is low enough that I qualify for a very low cost silver plan (one year it was essentially free). Through creative withdrawals from investments, I can engineer my MAGI such that it maximizes the premium tax credit and cost sharing for silver plans. Overall, ACA insurance has been substantially less expensive than what I was paying for FEHB, and I have basically the same BCBS plan I had when I was a fed. Of course, great plans like that aren't available everywhere.
This is really good info, since it's pretty much what I plan to do...retire at age 50 (but not at MRA) and then use ACA instead of FEHB. If I can swing it, I'll work part time to keep my FEHB but there's no guarantee that will happen.
I'm currently in northern Virginia, and contemplating moving to WVA. I wonder how the ACA plans compare between the states. Could make a big difference (not to mention cost of living being lower in general in WVA).
I have a Highmark BCBS silver plan. From what I've seen, everything else offered in WV (or at least in my county) is crap (narrow networks, small coverage area). If Highmark ever pulled out, I'd be screwed. Hopefully that won't happen since they are such a huge presence in the local/regional insurance market.
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As many probably know, if you retire under the “MRA+10” status and take an immediate annuity, your FERS pension is reduced by 5% for every year until 62, and there is no inflation adjustment until 62. That is a pretty big haircut. But I recently learned that, if you have 20+ years of service, you can get an unreduced annuity if you postpone taking it until 60, since you would have been eligible for an unreduced annuity under the “60+20” status. As long as you can cover health insurance another way (spouse, COBRA, ACA), that can be a pretty good trade.
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I'm only around the 3 year mark and I'm ready to pull the plug. Most of my department was contracted out ~20 years ago and it's created this very toxic us vs. them culture where many of the contractors feel like the government is the enemy. Everyone at a management level drinks the Kool-Aid even if the regular workers may genuinely want to do a good job.
I'm on the 5th contractor counterpart in 3 years and every single one has been a terrible manager. The latest seems to be the worst yet and has created a very bad working environment for all the people who are supposed to be doing the work I'm responsible for. I would need 8-10 trained people and a few years to catch up on the 20 years of neglect. Instead I've got 5 that are mostly untrained and I'm the one who ends up training them and doing a fair amount of the work because their management is too busy dealing with HR BS. I'm actually in the process of hiring the best person they had as GS employee. They fired her for some made up garbage about not reporting possible COVID symptoms but really because she called people on their BS and not following written regulations. It's going to be a real thumb in their eye and I'm told it caused quite a kerfuffle when I briefed my plan to senior leadership in a meeting recently (who all approved it).
My boss just left for another agency on Friday but she has 10+ years of federal service. There's no way I'd stick it out until MRA and even the minimal pension at 5 years is not an incentive for me. I've got health insurance through the National Guard (2 years from retirement eligibility) so the benefits aren't worth it to me. At 4.4% of my paycheck to get 1%/year, the pension is definitely not worth it. The TSP match has been nice but I'm ready to take those FERS contributions and run. My wife and I are in the process of buying a business and once that closes I'm out the door as soon as I can. I feel somewhat bad about leaving behind a mess, but short of senior leadership finally recognizing that this work can't be successfully contracted out, I can't get much done.
That sounds like an awful environment. I can only imagine how your group scores on the Federal Employee Viewpoint Survey. I definitely agree that the FERS pension is a lot less valuable when your contribution is 4.4% rather than 0.7%. That was a really big pay cut for new hires when that changed, especially since that is paid with after-tax dollars.
And now the new contractor has hired the lead from the current contract - thus guaranteeing no real change. At most 2-3 of the current semi-trained workers will transfer to the new contract meaning there's still little or no institutional knowledge. They're offering a whopping $2,000 more for a manager position vs. the technician/worker role ($60k vs. $58k) so little chance they'll find someone good. We close on purchasing a business at the end of the month and at this rate I'm probably going to leave a month or so after that. I'll cash out my $6k or so in FERS and not look back. I've spent three years trying to fix this and made very little measurable progress. I see no reason to stick around and pound my head against the wall for any longer. I'm looking forward to being in control of my business and not having to worry about dealing with all the bureaucracy to get anything done - only to find some arbitrary change like a hiring freeze for the position I was two weeks away from filling.
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As many probably know, if you retire under the “MRA+10” status and take an immediate annuity, your FERS pension is reduced by 5% for every year until 62, and there is no inflation adjustment until 62. That is a pretty big haircut. But I recently learned that, if you have 20+ years of service, you can get an unreduced annuity if you postpone taking it until 60, since you would have been eligible for an unreduced annuity under the “60+20” status. As long as you can cover health insurance another way (spouse, COBRA, ACA), that can be a pretty good trade.
Postponing is also not a bad way to free up space for a couple of years for a Roth conversion ladder. And with postponing, as opposed to deferring, you can restart FEHB when you start taking the annuity.
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As many probably know, if you retire under the “MRA+10” status and take an immediate annuity, your FERS pension is reduced by 5% for every year until 62, and there is no inflation adjustment until 62. That is a pretty big haircut. But I recently learned that, if you have 20+ years of service, you can get an unreduced annuity if you postpone taking it until 60, since you would have been eligible for an unreduced annuity under the “60+20” status. As long as you can cover health insurance another way (spouse, COBRA, ACA), that can be a pretty good trade.
It is a big haircut but presumably the toughest years to weather will be the ones from retirement to just before SS kicks in. That is, even though the pension haircut is permanent for each year of retirement, the FERS Supplement can help. By the time SS starts being collected, feds could have more than they know what to do with so a reduced pension (as opposed to no pension due to delaying to avoid the reduction) could make sense in some situations.
For instance, if I stop working once I hit 30 years, here is what my access (I'm aware there are more ways to access, I mean access easily without any hoops to jump through) would look like:
Age 54 (retirement), Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 55, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 56, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 57, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 58, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 59, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA (partial), taxable account
Age 60, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 61, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 62, pension, FERS supplement (partial), TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 63, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 64, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 65, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 66, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 67+, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA, SS
Honestly, I think my plan would look similar if I don't make it to MRA. I would just need even more from my Roth IRA contributions and taxable account to bridge the gap as well as more exposure to SORR. I'll run realistic numbers when I get closer to see when I would take my pension and start the FERS Supplement (if under 62).
The earlier years of retirement require the most planning as access to all retirement accounts isn't there yet. Thus I could envision scenarios where someone decides to take a pension ASAP even at a reduced amount as opposed to waiting.
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As many probably know, if you retire under the “MRA+10” status and take an immediate annuity, your FERS pension is reduced by 5% for every year until 62, and there is no inflation adjustment until 62. That is a pretty big haircut. But I recently learned that, if you have 20+ years of service, you can get an unreduced annuity if you postpone taking it until 60, since you would have been eligible for an unreduced annuity under the “60+20” status. As long as you can cover health insurance another way (spouse, COBRA, ACA), that can be a pretty good trade.
It is a big haircut but presumably the toughest years to weather will be the ones from retirement to just before SS kicks in. That is, even though the pension haircut is permanent for each year of retirement, the FERS Supplement can help. By the time SS starts being collected, feds could have more than they know what to do with so a reduced pension (as opposed to no pension due to delaying to avoid the reduction) could make sense in some situations.
For instance, if I stop working once I hit 30 years, here is what my access (I'm aware there are more ways to access, I mean access easily without any hoops to jump through) would look like:
Age 54 (retirement), Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 55, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 56, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 57, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 58, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 59, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA (partial), taxable account
Age 60, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 61, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 62, pension, FERS supplement (partial), TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 63, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 64, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 65, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 66, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 67+, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA, SS
Honestly, I think my plan would look similar if I don't make it to MRA. I would just need even more from my Roth IRA contributions and taxable account to bridge the gap as well as more exposure to SORR. I'll run realistic numbers when I get closer to see when I would take my pension and start the FERS Supplement (if under 62).
The earlier years of retirement require the most planning as access to all retirement accounts isn't there yet. Thus I could envision scenarios where someone decides to take a pension ASAP even at a reduced amount as opposed to waiting.
One thing to keep in mind is that you can access TSP once you are 55, without the 10% penalty, if you have left Federal service. No need to wait all the way until 59 1/2.
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As many probably know, if you retire under the “MRA+10” status and take an immediate annuity, your FERS pension is reduced by 5% for every year until 62, and there is no inflation adjustment until 62. That is a pretty big haircut. But I recently learned that, if you have 20+ years of service, you can get an unreduced annuity if you postpone taking it until 60, since you would have been eligible for an unreduced annuity under the “60+20” status. As long as you can cover health insurance another way (spouse, COBRA, ACA), that can be a pretty good trade.
It is a big haircut but presumably the toughest years to weather will be the ones from retirement to just before SS kicks in. That is, even though the pension haircut is permanent for each year of retirement, the FERS Supplement can help. By the time SS starts being collected, feds could have more than they know what to do with so a reduced pension (as opposed to no pension due to delaying to avoid the reduction) could make sense in some situations.
For instance, if I stop working once I hit 30 years, here is what my access (I'm aware there are more ways to access, I mean access easily without any hoops to jump through) would look like:
Age 54 (retirement), Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 55, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 56, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 57, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 58, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 59, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA (partial), taxable account
Age 60, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 61, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 62, pension, FERS supplement (partial), TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 63, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 64, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 65, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 66, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 67+, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA, SS
Honestly, I think my plan would look similar if I don't make it to MRA. I would just need even more from my Roth IRA contributions and taxable account to bridge the gap as well as more exposure to SORR. I'll run realistic numbers when I get closer to see when I would take my pension and start the FERS Supplement (if under 62).
The earlier years of retirement require the most planning as access to all retirement accounts isn't there yet. Thus I could envision scenarios where someone decides to take a pension ASAP even at a reduced amount as opposed to waiting.
One thing to keep in mind is that you can access TSP once you are 55, without the 10% penalty, if you have left Federal service. No need to wait all the way until 59 1/2.
@frugalecon Do you have a link to this? All I can find are rules stating that you can do this only if you leave the federal service in the year (or after) you turn 55. If someone hits their MRA at age 52 and wants to retire, I'm not seeing explicit rules where they could take out TSP at 55 since they separated at 52. Maybe I'm reading outdated information, though.
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As many probably know, if you retire under the “MRA+10” status and take an immediate annuity, your FERS pension is reduced by 5% for every year until 62, and there is no inflation adjustment until 62. That is a pretty big haircut. But I recently learned that, if you have 20+ years of service, you can get an unreduced annuity if you postpone taking it until 60, since you would have been eligible for an unreduced annuity under the “60+20” status. As long as you can cover health insurance another way (spouse, COBRA, ACA), that can be a pretty good trade.
It is a big haircut but presumably the toughest years to weather will be the ones from retirement to just before SS kicks in. That is, even though the pension haircut is permanent for each year of retirement, the FERS Supplement can help. By the time SS starts being collected, feds could have more than they know what to do with so a reduced pension (as opposed to no pension due to delaying to avoid the reduction) could make sense in some situations.
For instance, if I stop working once I hit 30 years, here is what my access (I'm aware there are more ways to access, I mean access easily without any hoops to jump through) would look like:
Age 54 (retirement), Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 55, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 56, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 57, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 58, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 59, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA (partial), taxable account
Age 60, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 61, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 62, pension, FERS supplement (partial), TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 63, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 64, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 65, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 66, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 67+, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA, SS
Honestly, I think my plan would look similar if I don't make it to MRA. I would just need even more from my Roth IRA contributions and taxable account to bridge the gap as well as more exposure to SORR. I'll run realistic numbers when I get closer to see when I would take my pension and start the FERS Supplement (if under 62).
The earlier years of retirement require the most planning as access to all retirement accounts isn't there yet. Thus I could envision scenarios where someone decides to take a pension ASAP even at a reduced amount as opposed to waiting.
One thing to keep in mind is that you can access TSP once you are 55, without the 10% penalty, if you have left Federal service. No need to wait all the way until 59 1/2.
@frugalecon Do you have a link to this? All I can find are rules stating that you can do this only if you leave the federal service in the year (or after) you turn 55. If someone hits their MRA at age 52 and wants to retire, I'm not seeing explicit rules where they could take out TSP at 55 since they separated at 52. Maybe I'm reading outdated information, though.
You are correct for the rule of 55 you must retire in that year. (I’m an SCE who has a rule of 50, but my MRE is 47 so I don’t get to access it until 59.5)
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As many probably know, if you retire under the “MRA+10” status and take an immediate annuity, your FERS pension is reduced by 5% for every year until 62, and there is no inflation adjustment until 62. That is a pretty big haircut. But I recently learned that, if you have 20+ years of service, you can get an unreduced annuity if you postpone taking it until 60, since you would have been eligible for an unreduced annuity under the “60+20” status. As long as you can cover health insurance another way (spouse, COBRA, ACA), that can be a pretty good trade.
It is a big haircut but presumably the toughest years to weather will be the ones from retirement to just before SS kicks in. That is, even though the pension haircut is permanent for each year of retirement, the FERS Supplement can help. By the time SS starts being collected, feds could have more than they know what to do with so a reduced pension (as opposed to no pension due to delaying to avoid the reduction) could make sense in some situations.
For instance, if I stop working once I hit 30 years, here is what my access (I'm aware there are more ways to access, I mean access easily without any hoops to jump through) would look like:
Age 54 (retirement), Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 55, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 56, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 57, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 58, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 59, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA (partial), taxable account
Age 60, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 61, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 62, pension, FERS supplement (partial), TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 63, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 64, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 65, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 66, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 67+, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA, SS
Honestly, I think my plan would look similar if I don't make it to MRA. I would just need even more from my Roth IRA contributions and taxable account to bridge the gap as well as more exposure to SORR. I'll run realistic numbers when I get closer to see when I would take my pension and start the FERS Supplement (if under 62).
The earlier years of retirement require the most planning as access to all retirement accounts isn't there yet. Thus I could envision scenarios where someone decides to take a pension ASAP even at a reduced amount as opposed to waiting.
One thing to keep in mind is that you can access TSP once you are 55, without the 10% penalty, if you have left Federal service. No need to wait all the way until 59 1/2.
@frugalecon Do you have a link to this? All I can find are rules stating that you can do this only if you leave the federal service in the year (or after) you turn 55. If someone hits their MRA at age 52 and wants to retire, I'm not seeing explicit rules where they could take out TSP at 55 since they separated at 52. Maybe I'm reading outdated information, though.
You are correct for the rule of 55 you must retire in that year. (I’m an SCE who has a rule of 50, but my MRE is 47 so I don’t get to access it until 59.5)
Oh, ok, I didn’t know that nuance. Thanks for the correction!
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As many probably know, if you retire under the “MRA+10” status and take an immediate annuity, your FERS pension is reduced by 5% for every year until 62, and there is no inflation adjustment until 62. That is a pretty big haircut. But I recently learned that, if you have 20+ years of service, you can get an unreduced annuity if you postpone taking it until 60, since you would have been eligible for an unreduced annuity under the “60+20” status. As long as you can cover health insurance another way (spouse, COBRA, ACA), that can be a pretty good trade.
It is a big haircut but presumably the toughest years to weather will be the ones from retirement to just before SS kicks in. That is, even though the pension haircut is permanent for each year of retirement, the FERS Supplement can help. By the time SS starts being collected, feds could have more than they know what to do with so a reduced pension (as opposed to no pension due to delaying to avoid the reduction) could make sense in some situations.
For instance, if I stop working once I hit 30 years, here is what my access (I'm aware there are more ways to access, I mean access easily without any hoops to jump through) would look like:
Age 54 (retirement), Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 55, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 56, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 57, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 58, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 59, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA (partial), taxable account
Age 60, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 61, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 62, pension, FERS supplement (partial), TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 63, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 64, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 65, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 66, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 67+, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA, SS
Honestly, I think my plan would look similar if I don't make it to MRA. I would just need even more from my Roth IRA contributions and taxable account to bridge the gap as well as more exposure to SORR. I'll run realistic numbers when I get closer to see when I would take my pension and start the FERS Supplement (if under 62).
The earlier years of retirement require the most planning as access to all retirement accounts isn't there yet. Thus I could envision scenarios where someone decides to take a pension ASAP even at a reduced amount as opposed to waiting.
One thing to keep in mind is that you can access TSP once you are 55, without the 10% penalty, if you have left Federal service. No need to wait all the way until 59 1/2.
@frugalecon Do you have a link to this? All I can find are rules stating that you can do this only if you leave the federal service in the year (or after) you turn 55. If someone hits their MRA at age 52 and wants to retire, I'm not seeing explicit rules where they could take out TSP at 55 since they separated at 52. Maybe I'm reading outdated information, though.
You are correct for the rule of 55 you must retire in that year. (I’m an SCE who has a rule of 50, but my MRE is 47 so I don’t get to access it until 59.5)
Oh, ok, I didn’t know that nuance. Thanks for the correction!
That's close, but not entirely accurate.
According to this IRS page (https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc558):
The following additional exceptions [to the additional 10% tax] apply only to distributions from a qualified retirement plan other than an IRA: ...
Distributions made to you after you separated from service with your employer if the separation occurred in or after (emphasis mine) the year you reached age 55, or distributions made from a qualified governmental benefit plan, as defined in section 414(d) if you were a qualified public safety employee (federal state or local government) who separated from service in or after the year you reached age 50.
N.B. that your separation from service with your employer must occur in or after the year you reach 55, not only that particular year.
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This thread needs a revival, as I’m down to 54 months and counting… though the golden handcuffs are feeling especially tight today.
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I'm only around the 3 year mark and I'm ready to pull the plug. Most of my department was contracted out ~20 years ago and it's created this very toxic us vs. them culture where many of the contractors feel like the government is the enemy. Everyone at a management level drinks the Kool-Aid even if the regular workers may genuinely want to do a good job.
I'm on the 5th contractor counterpart in 3 years and every single one has been a terrible manager. The latest seems to be the worst yet and has created a very bad working environment for all the people who are supposed to be doing the work I'm responsible for. I would need 8-10 trained people and a few years to catch up on the 20 years of neglect. Instead I've got 5 that are mostly untrained and I'm the one who ends up training them and doing a fair amount of the work because their management is too busy dealing with HR BS. I'm actually in the process of hiring the best person they had as GS employee. They fired her for some made up garbage about not reporting possible COVID symptoms but really because she called people on their BS and not following written regulations. It's going to be a real thumb in their eye and I'm told it caused quite a kerfuffle when I briefed my plan to senior leadership in a meeting recently (who all approved it).
My boss just left for another agency on Friday but she has 10+ years of federal service. There's no way I'd stick it out until MRA and even the minimal pension at 5 years is not an incentive for me. I've got health insurance through the National Guard (2 years from retirement eligibility) so the benefits aren't worth it to me. At 4.4% of my paycheck to get 1%/year, the pension is definitely not worth it. The TSP match has been nice but I'm ready to take those FERS contributions and run. My wife and I are in the process of buying a business and once that closes I'm out the door as soon as I can. I feel somewhat bad about leaving behind a mess, but short of senior leadership finally recognizing that this work can't be successfully contracted out, I can't get much done.
That sounds like an awful environment. I can only imagine how your group scores on the Federal Employee Viewpoint Survey. I definitely agree that the FERS pension is a lot less valuable when your contribution is 4.4% rather than 0.7%. That was a really big pay cut for new hires when that changed, especially since that is paid with after-tax dollars.
And now the new contractor has hired the lead from the current contract - thus guaranteeing no real change. At most 2-3 of the current semi-trained workers will transfer to the new contract meaning there's still little or no institutional knowledge. They're offering a whopping $2,000 more for a manager position vs. the technician/worker role ($60k vs. $58k) so little chance they'll find someone good. We close on purchasing a business at the end of the month and at this rate I'm probably going to leave a month or so after that. I'll cash out my $6k or so in FERS and not look back. I've spent three years trying to fix this and made very little measurable progress. I see no reason to stick around and pound my head against the wall for any longer. I'm looking forward to being in control of my business and not having to worry about dealing with all the bureaucracy to get anything done - only to find some arbitrary change like a hiring freeze for the position I was two weeks away from filling.
Looking back on this I'm so glad I quit. I put in my two weeks notice in July. The day after I quit I was on a plane to close on the business purchase. Now I can hire someone the same day I meet them if I want to. No one to consult with on decisions but my wife who is the co-owner. The only paperwork I filled out when hiring my last employee was a paragraph or two job posting on a local FB group and then having my accountant send them a link to fill out a W-4 and direct deposit information.
I do still need to fill out some forms to get my FERS money back. About a week after I quit they went back to 100% masks on base and I didn't feel like trying to go in person and do the paperwork. Now I have to go through the OPM. I downloaded the form weeks ago, just been busy and haven't submitted it yet. I probably have to fax or mail it in like a caveman. Now that I own my own business I can go purchase automation software and not worry about it being unapproved to run on the government system or needing a million dollar contract just to scan some documents or setup cloud storage.
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Has anyone left after five years but well before MRA and anticipates a small pension at 62? That will likely be our situation. Can't imagine hanging around for another 15 years.
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Has anyone left after five years but well before MRA and anticipates a small pension at 62? That will likely be our situation. Can't imagine hanging around for another 15 years.
That would be my plan as well.
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Has anyone left after five years but well before MRA and anticipates a small pension at 62? That will likely be our situation. Can't imagine hanging around for another 15 years.
I could have bought back some military time and hit the 5-year mark to get a pension. However, it would have been something like $300/month 25 years from now. I'm fairly confident I can turn my FERS contributions today into an income stream to rival that - plus I'll have the principal of that investment that could presumably be passed on while the pension dies with me.
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Has anyone left after five years but well before MRA and anticipates a small pension at 62? That will likely be our situation. Can't imagine hanging around for another 15 years.
Yes. I left after 15 years, but well before MRA. As things stand now, I'm planning on taking my pension when I reach MRA (about 57 for me), because cFiresim says I'll come out slightly better that way than waiting until age 62. The pension won't be a lot, but it will help (along with SS) in providing a modest guaranteed income floor.
A key point is the fact that I signed on with Uncle back when the FERS employee contribution was miniscule. So it would be crazy for me to cash out those contributions and forgo the pension. If you are paying the current onerous employee contribution, your situation likely is quite different. Especially if you only have 5 years in - your pension likely won't amount to anything, especially after inflation eats away at it for a few decades.
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Has anyone left after five years but well before MRA and anticipates a small pension at 62? That will likely be our situation. Can't imagine hanging around for another 15 years.
Yes. I left after 15 years, but well before MRA. As things stand now, I'm planning on taking my pension when I reach MRA (about 57 for me), because cFiresim says I'll come out slightly better that way than waiting until age 62. The pension won't be a lot, but it will help (along with SS) in providing a modest guaranteed income floor.
A key point is the fact that I signed on with Uncle back when the FERS employee contribution was miniscule. So it would be crazy for me to cash out those contributions and forgo the pension. If you are paying the current onerous employee contribution, your situation likely is quite different. Especially if you only have 5 years in - your pension likely won't amount to anything, especially after inflation eats away at it for a few decades.
Fascinating that the math works out to take it at 57 instead of 62. I always assumed waiting the five extra years to waive the ~25% penalty was the better play. I guess I should start running numbers.
I'll end up having closer to 17 years but the last (next) 5-7 are expected to be at 3/4 time. No way I'm doing 20-22 more years to hang on for max pension+fehb at MRA.
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Has anyone left after five years but well before MRA and anticipates a small pension at 62? That will likely be our situation. Can't imagine hanging around for another 15 years.
Yes. I left after 15 years, but well before MRA. As things stand now, I'm planning on taking my pension when I reach MRA (about 57 for me), because cFiresim says I'll come out slightly better that way than waiting until age 62. The pension won't be a lot, but it will help (along with SS) in providing a modest guaranteed income floor.
A key point is the fact that I signed on with Uncle back when the FERS employee contribution was miniscule. So it would be crazy for me to cash out those contributions and forgo the pension. If you are paying the current onerous employee contribution, your situation likely is quite different. Especially if you only have 5 years in - your pension likely won't amount to anything, especially after inflation eats away at it for a few decades.
Fascinating that the math works out to take it at 57 instead of 62. I always assumed waiting the five extra years to waive the ~25% penalty was the better play. I guess I should start running numbers.
I'll end up having closer to 17 years but the last (next) 5-7 are expected to be at 3/4 time. No way I'm doing 20-22 more years to hang on for max pension+fehb at MRA.
Yes, it works out the same way for SS - slightly better outcome (in terms of max SWR) if I take it at 62 vs waiting until 67. Both SS and the FERS pension are designed to be actuarially neutral. You get the same expected lifetime payout regardless of when you start taking it. Starting as early as possible reduces withdrawals from your portfolio a little earlier, which mitigates sequence of return risk to a small degree, and perhaps gives a little boost from the presumably higher rate of return earned by your invested assets. However, this is all highly situation dependent, based on the amount of your pension/SS, the size of your portfolio, how you have it invested, your age and assumed life expectancy, etc., etc. I would encourage everyone to run their own numbers based on their own situation. And re-run them right before starting any benefits.
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A key point is the fact that I signed on with Uncle back when the FERS employee contribution was miniscule. So it would be crazy for me to cash out those contributions and forgo the pension. If you are paying the current onerous employee contribution, your situation likely is quite different. Especially if you only have 5 years in - your pension likely won't amount to anything, especially after inflation eats away at it for a few decades.
That's a huge point, and makes staying on more costly for people who started working for the man more recently.
Fortunately, like @Monkey Uncle I joined early enough to maximize my return on that miniscule investment.
While the pension is OK - in the Foreign Service we get 1.7% x High-3 x years for the first 20 years, 1.0% for every year thereafter - I think the FEHB benefit is much more valuable, even if the employee's contribution to health care has been increasing faster than inflation. Thoughts?
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As a later joiner, if I stayed for 5-6 years, I'm looking at a pension of ~600-700/month 20+ years from now for ~30k in contributions. A five year vest is rare these days and it seemed not worth pulling the $ out, but now I don't know. If the stache does well, it's not enough to make a difference, if it doesn't, might be nice to have in the background.
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Has anyone left after five years but well before MRA and anticipates a small pension at 62? That will likely be our situation. Can't imagine hanging around for another 15 years.
Yes. I left after 15 years, but well before MRA. As things stand now, I'm planning on taking my pension when I reach MRA (about 57 for me), because cFiresim says I'll come out slightly better that way than waiting until age 62. The pension won't be a lot, but it will help (along with SS) in providing a modest guaranteed income floor.
A key point is the fact that I signed on with Uncle back when the FERS employee contribution was miniscule. So it would be crazy for me to cash out those contributions and forgo the pension. If you are paying the current onerous employee contribution, your situation likely is quite different. Especially if you only have 5 years in - your pension likely won't amount to anything, especially after inflation eats away at it for a few decades.
Fascinating that the math works out to take it at 57 instead of 62. I always assumed waiting the five extra years to waive the ~25% penalty was the better play. I guess I should start running numbers.
I'll end up having closer to 17 years but the last (next) 5-7 are expected to be at 3/4 time. No way I'm doing 20-22 more years to hang on for max pension+fehb at MRA.
Yes, it works out the same way for SS - slightly better outcome (in terms of max SWR) if I take it at 62 vs waiting until 67. Both SS and the FERS pension are designed to be actuarially neutral. You get the same expected lifetime payout regardless of when you start taking it. Starting as early as possible reduces withdrawals from your portfolio a little earlier, which mitigates sequence of return risk to a small degree, and perhaps gives a little boost from the presumably higher rate of return earned by your invested assets. However, this is all highly situation dependent, based on the amount of your pension/SS, the size of your portfolio, how you have it invested, your age and assumed life expectancy, etc., etc. I would encourage everyone to run their own numbers based on their own situation. And re-run them right before starting any benefits.
I was curious so I started tinkering around last night and found that there is a 100% success rate waiting until 67 and a 98.8% (1/86 failures) taking at 62 with a 4.5% portfolio withdrawal rate. The big eye opener though was how much smaller the portfolio needed to be with both SS and pension factored into the equation. I needed ~$250k less than I thought I estimated. This may bump up the timeline by 1-2 years.
While the pension is OK - in the Foreign Service we get 1.7% x High-3 x years for the first 20 years, 1.0% for every year thereafter - I think the FEHB benefit is much more valuable, even if the employee's contribution to health care has been increasing faster than inflation. Thoughts?
FEHB is a very nice perk to have, though if you're FI + cost of insurance I would doubt it's worth hanging on for for 5 years Have you looked into comparable ACA plans where you plan on retiring? I saw in the 2026 thread you're really not enjoying work and if you can bail, what's holding you back?
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For me, the appeal of the FEHB is that there are options that are appropriate for ex-pats which I plan on being.
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FEHB is great for a retiree! You have all the choices and costs you do as an employee. My Family plan is under $300 a month for great coverage with a large HMO. A Sugaree pointed out, I have coverage while traveling overseas (assuming I ever travel again) with Medicare doesn't cover.
What has been the most advantageous in the long run is that I'm wasn't required to take Medicare when I turned 65. Medicare part B is ~$150 per person (no family plan) plus maybe a drug or Medi-gap plan so my FEHB plan is cheaper to start. If your income is high in retirement (over ~175K for MFJ), Medicare will cost you more. Maybe you think you'll never have that much taxable income, but wait until you have a large capital gain from selling real estate.
I was a CSRS employee and retired in my mid-50s so keeping FEHB was never a question.
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A key point is the fact that I signed on with Uncle back when the FERS employee contribution was miniscule. So it would be crazy for me to cash out those contributions and forgo the pension. If you are paying the current onerous employee contribution, your situation likely is quite different. Especially if you only have 5 years in - your pension likely won't amount to anything, especially after inflation eats away at it for a few decades.
That's a huge point, and makes staying on more costly for people who started working for the man more recently.
Fortunately, like @Monkey Uncle I joined early enough to maximize my return on that miniscule investment.
While the pension is OK - in the Foreign Service we get 1.7% x High-3 x years for the first 20 years, 1.0% for every year thereafter - I think the FEHB benefit is much more valuable, even if the employee's contribution to health care has been increasing faster than inflation. Thoughts?
If your MAGI is modest, an ACA silver plan is less expensive than FEHB. Whether or not it is good insurance depends entirely on where you live. I am lucky that I can get essentially the same BCBS plan that FEHB offers, and I pay a lot less for it. This is another one of those things that is highly situation dependent.
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A key point is the fact that I signed on with Uncle back when the FERS employee contribution was miniscule. So it would be crazy for me to cash out those contributions and forgo the pension. If you are paying the current onerous employee contribution, your situation likely is quite different. Especially if you only have 5 years in - your pension likely won't amount to anything, especially after inflation eats away at it for a few decades.
That's a huge point, and makes staying on more costly for people who started working for the man more recently.
Fortunately, like @Monkey Uncle I joined early enough to maximize my return on that miniscule investment.
While the pension is OK - in the Foreign Service we get 1.7% x High-3 x years for the first 20 years, 1.0% for every year thereafter - I think the FEHB benefit is much more valuable, even if the employee's contribution to health care has been increasing faster than inflation. Thoughts?
It is for us SCE’s that can retire at say 47 with 25 years (speaking for myself). That’s 18 years of FEHB before Medicare. Again a benefit that isn’t so great of a deal if you are staying to 57+
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Those of you considering ACA plans as a reasonable alternative to FEHB, beware. Once you are eligible for Medicare, you can no longer have an ACA plan. This means that your alternative to your FEHB for most of your life is Medicare. That's about $150 per person (no family plan) plus a supplemental for the remaining 20% that Medicare doesn't cover or Medicare Advantage plan, many of which cost extra.
Your options are not between FEHB and ACA. Your options are between FEHB and Medicare as soon as you turn 65. FEHB does not require you to take Medicare when you are eligible, unlike almost every other insurance, so you can keep your FEHB your entire life and never have to pay Medicare premiums.
This isn't as relevant if you are 40 but if you are closer to MRA, there are good reasons to stay.
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I'm not terribly worried about Medicare costs (well I am concerned about Medicare's long-term funding problems, but that's another story). My wife is already on Medicare. She has the part B supplement that covers essentially everything. I consider it to be a good deal, all things considered. Her total premiums for part B, the supplement, and the part D drug plan are a little under $3k a year (part A has no premium). Her only out of pocket cost is the part B deductible (currently $203) and any new prescriptions she might get that aren't fully covered by the part D drug plan.
The drug plan is the trickiest part. It's relatively easy to find a plan that covers your particular prescriptions at little or no out of pocket cost, but if you get a new prescription during the year and it happens to not be fully covered by your plan, you're stuck paying for it until you can switch plans in the fall.
Yes, her premiums are likely to go up every year, but that's also the case with FEHB, and every other form of health insurance other than a fully subsidized ACA plan.
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Those of you considering ACA plans as a reasonable alternative to FEHB, beware. Once you are eligible for Medicare, you can no longer have an ACA plan. This means that your alternative to your FEHB for most of your life is Medicare. That's about $150 per person (no family plan) plus a supplemental for the remaining 20% that Medicare doesn't cover or Medicare Advantage plan, many of which cost extra.
Your options are not between FEHB and ACA. Your options are between FEHB and Medicare as soon as you turn 65. FEHB does not require you to take Medicare when you are eligible, unlike almost every other insurance, so you can keep your FEHB your entire life and never have to pay Medicare premiums.
This isn't as relevant if you are 40 but if you are closer to MRA, there are good reasons to stay.
You can have FEHB and medicare at the same time in retirement if you want. $150 per person (assume per month) sounds like less than any FEHB plan.
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When you add your Part B premium and Part D (drug coverage) and a Medicare Supplement you are talking more than $150 a month.
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When you add your Part B premium and Part D (drug coverage) and a Medicare Supplement you are talking more than $150 a month.
You also need to consider your out of pocket costs. With traditional Medicare, part B supplement, and Part D drug coverage, your premiums will be higher, but your potential out of pocket costs are lower. Of course whether this is a good deal or not depends on your health status. As people get older, traditional Medicare becomes a better deal.
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Yes, her premiums are likely to go up every year, but that's also the case with FEHB, and every other form of health insurance other than a fully subsidized ACA plan.
As a data point, our FEHB premiums - we're in GEHA HDHP, family - will increase 5.0% in 2022.
Meanwhile, Uncle Joe seems fixed on giving Federal employees a 2.2% raise + 0.5% for locality pay adjustments in 2022 (source: https://federalnewsnetwork.com/pay/2021/08/biden-formally-announces-plans-to-give-employees-a-federal-pay-raise-in-2022/). That's lower than the inflation rate, and pay raises have consistently trailed the increases in health insurance premiums, eroding our discretionary income every year.
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Yes, her premiums are likely to go up every year, but that's also the case with FEHB, and every other form of health insurance other than a fully subsidized ACA plan.
As a data point, our FEHB premiums - we're in GEHA HDHP, family - will increase 5.0% in 2022.
Meanwhile, Uncle Joe seems fixed on giving Federal employees a 2.2% raise + 0.5% for locality pay adjustments in 2022 (source: https://federalnewsnetwork.com/pay/2021/08/biden-formally-announces-plans-to-give-employees-a-federal-pay-raise-in-2022/). That's lower than the inflation rate, and pay raises have consistently trailed the increases in health insurance premiums, eroding our discretionary income every year.
I know that it's pretty easy to compare % to % and is a common complaint, but a 5% raise on employee premiums for GEHA HDHP comes out to about $400. A 2.2% increase on a $95k salary comes out to ~$2k. My guess is yours is higher between base salary and locality. Hopefully the difference helps keep your discretionary income the same.
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Yes, her premiums are likely to go up every year, but that's also the case with FEHB, and every other form of health insurance other than a fully subsidized ACA plan.
As a data point, our FEHB premiums - we're in GEHA HDHP, family - will increase 5.0% in 2022.
Meanwhile, Uncle Joe seems fixed on giving Federal employees a 2.2% raise + 0.5% for locality pay adjustments in 2022 (source: https://federalnewsnetwork.com/pay/2021/08/biden-formally-announces-plans-to-give-employees-a-federal-pay-raise-in-2022/). That's lower than the inflation rate, and pay raises have consistently trailed the increases in health insurance premiums, eroding our discretionary income every year.
I know that it's pretty easy to compare % to % and is a common complaint, but a 5% raise on employee premiums for GEHA HDHP comes out to about $400. A 2.2% increase on a $95k salary comes out to ~$2k. My guess is yours is higher between base salary and locality. Hopefully the difference helps keep your discretionary income the same.
An increase in nominal dollars does not compensate for the loss of real value of discretionary income.
Even without considering the current inflation rate (5.25% annually at the end of August, 2021), the fact that insurance premiums are rising at a faster rate than salaries means a reduction in purchasing power, no matter the (much lower) base of the insurance premium.
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Yes, her premiums are likely to go up every year, but that's also the case with FEHB, and every other form of health insurance other than a fully subsidized ACA plan.
As a data point, our FEHB premiums - we're in GEHA HDHP, family - will increase 5.0% in 2022.
Meanwhile, Uncle Joe seems fixed on giving Federal employees a 2.2% raise + 0.5% for locality pay adjustments in 2022 (source: https://federalnewsnetwork.com/pay/2021/08/biden-formally-announces-plans-to-give-employees-a-federal-pay-raise-in-2022/). That's lower than the inflation rate, and pay raises have consistently trailed the increases in health insurance premiums, eroding our discretionary income every year.
I know that it's pretty easy to compare % to % and is a common complaint, but a 5% raise on employee premiums for GEHA HDHP comes out to about $400. A 2.2% increase on a $95k salary comes out to ~$2k. My guess is yours is higher between base salary and locality. Hopefully the difference helps keep your discretionary income the same.
An increase in nominal dollars does not compensate for the loss of real value of discretionary income.
Even without considering the current inflation rate (5.25% annually at the end of August, 2021), the fact that insurance premiums are rising at a faster rate than salaries means a reduction in purchasing power, no matter the (much lower) base of the insurance premium.
A complicating factor in these kinds of comparisons is that health care premiums are rising for health care that is arguably improving every year. There are more effective treatments for many conditions now, or treatments for conditions that had no treatment options at all. We are definitely spending more and more of our incomes on health care, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we are worse off. That said, the pay increase that Biden has proposed for Feds is less than inflation, so there will be some erosion of real purchasing power. FERS and CSRS annuitants will get bigger increases than active Feds, I think!
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An increase in nominal dollars does not compensate for the loss of real value of discretionary income.
Even without considering the current inflation rate (5.25% annually at the end of August, 2021), the fact that insurance premiums are rising at a faster rate than salaries means a reduction in purchasing power, no matter the (much lower) base of the insurance premium.
On a global level i agree that it's a cause for concern. On a personal finance level i never understood it. The way fed salaries have always registered in my mind is that each grade supports a certain lifestyle and between the steps every 2 years and hopefully COLAs that lifestyle doesn't really change. Both the increases of premiums and inflation are so far outside of my sphere of control this is the easiest way for me to just shrug it all off.
That said, the pay increase that Biden has proposed for Feds is less than inflation, so there will be some erosion of real purchasing power. FERS and CSRS annuitants will get bigger increases than active Feds, I think!
This doesn't shock me at all and I'm pretty sure civil servants have been on the low end compared to retirees and active duty since as long as I can remember. It's because the retirees have a formula attached to CPI (i think), but active duty and civil servants are political.
The real way to increase purchasing power is to find new jobs, higher graded or private sector that pay more. It's not "supposed" to be that way, but I think feds have it better than most for preserving lifestyle spending and purchasing power compared to those who need to job hop, or are stuck without raises for years.
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Yes, her premiums are likely to go up every year, but that's also the case with FEHB, and every other form of health insurance other than a fully subsidized ACA plan.
As a data point, our FEHB premiums - we're in GEHA HDHP, family - will increase 5.0% in 2022.
Meanwhile, Uncle Joe seems fixed on giving Federal employees a 2.2% raise + 0.5% for locality pay adjustments in 2022 (source: https://federalnewsnetwork.com/pay/2021/08/biden-formally-announces-plans-to-give-employees-a-federal-pay-raise-in-2022/). That's lower than the inflation rate, and pay raises have consistently trailed the increases in health insurance premiums, eroding our discretionary income every year.
Laughs in Special Rate Table.
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When you add your Part B premium and Part D (drug coverage) and a Medicare Supplement you are talking more than $150 a month.
With NALC (an FEHB plan) you can pay as little as 100 bucks or as much as 250 per month for two people. Even if you pick a much more expensive plan, you can change it if you need to every year. With Medicare for 2 ppl you are looking at at least 300 for just Part B. Add Part D and a supplemental plan and it gets pretty expensive. Then consider the stuff that is statutorily not covered, like dental, glasses, hearing aides, and some other stuff, and it does start to get expensive.
Not saying which is best since it depends on your own situation and lots of luck, but just saying that maybe now your alternative might be FEHB to ACA, but soon it will be FEHB to Medicare. Might not be worth working another 10 yrs for, but it might be worth sticking it our a few more years if you are close to MRA.
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As many probably know, if you retire under the “MRA+10” status and take an immediate annuity, your FERS pension is reduced by 5% for every year until 62, and there is no inflation adjustment until 62. That is a pretty big haircut. But I recently learned that, if you have 20+ years of service, you can get an unreduced annuity if you postpone taking it until 60, since you would have been eligible for an unreduced annuity under the “60+20” status. As long as you can cover health insurance another way (spouse, COBRA, ACA), that can be a pretty good trade.
It is a big haircut but presumably the toughest years to weather will be the ones from retirement to just before SS kicks in. That is, even though the pension haircut is permanent for each year of retirement, the FERS Supplement can help. By the time SS starts being collected, feds could have more than they know what to do with so a reduced pension (as opposed to no pension due to delaying to avoid the reduction) could make sense in some situations.
For instance, if I stop working once I hit 30 years, here is what my access (I'm aware there are more ways to access, I mean access easily without any hoops to jump through) would look like:
Age 54 (retirement), Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 55, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 56, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 57, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 58, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 59, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA (partial), taxable account
Age 60, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 61, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 62, pension, FERS supplement (partial), TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 63, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 64, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 65, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 66, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 67+, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA, SS
Honestly, I think my plan would look similar if I don't make it to MRA. I would just need even more from my Roth IRA contributions and taxable account to bridge the gap as well as more exposure to SORR. I'll run realistic numbers when I get closer to see when I would take my pension and start the FERS Supplement (if under 62).
The earlier years of retirement require the most planning as access to all retirement accounts isn't there yet. Thus I could envision scenarios where someone decides to take a pension ASAP even at a reduced amount as opposed to waiting.
Im trying to understand the FERS supplement and everything I read says you cant retire on anything but immediate annuity (no deferred, early, etc) and get the Social security supplement. Are you sure your information by age is correct and you could get the supplement years before getting your FERS benefit?
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As many probably know, if you retire under the “MRA+10” status and take an immediate annuity, your FERS pension is reduced by 5% for every year until 62, and there is no inflation adjustment until 62. That is a pretty big haircut. But I recently learned that, if you have 20+ years of service, you can get an unreduced annuity if you postpone taking it until 60, since you would have been eligible for an unreduced annuity under the “60+20” status. As long as you can cover health insurance another way (spouse, COBRA, ACA), that can be a pretty good trade.
It is a big haircut but presumably the toughest years to weather will be the ones from retirement to just before SS kicks in. That is, even though the pension haircut is permanent for each year of retirement, the FERS Supplement can help. By the time SS starts being collected, feds could have more than they know what to do with so a reduced pension (as opposed to no pension due to delaying to avoid the reduction) could make sense in some situations.
For instance, if I stop working once I hit 30 years, here is what my access (I'm aware there are more ways to access, I mean access easily without any hoops to jump through) would look like:
Age 54 (retirement), Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 55, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 56, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 57, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 58, pension, FERS supplement, Roth IRA contributions, taxable account
Age 59, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA (partial), taxable account
Age 60, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 61, pension, FERS supplement, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 62, pension, FERS supplement (partial), TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 63, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 64, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account
Age 65, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 66, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA
Age 67+, pension, TSP, Roth IRA, taxable account, HSA, SS
Honestly, I think my plan would look similar if I don't make it to MRA. I would just need even more from my Roth IRA contributions and taxable account to bridge the gap as well as more exposure to SORR. I'll run realistic numbers when I get closer to see when I would take my pension and start the FERS Supplement (if under 62).
The earlier years of retirement require the most planning as access to all retirement accounts isn't there yet. Thus I could envision scenarios where someone decides to take a pension ASAP even at a reduced amount as opposed to waiting.
Im trying to understand the FERS supplement and everything I read says you cant retire on anything but immediate annuity (no deferred, early, etc) and get the Social security supplement. Are you sure your information by age is correct and you could get the supplement years before getting your FERS benefit?
No, I am not sure my information was/is correct, thanks for pointing that out! Then again, I might not be a fed next year let alone ~20 years from now. My options would be to 1) retire without it, assuming I still leave at 54 with 30 years, 2) quit working at 54 and get a fed job at age 57 and then retire soon after, 3) hope for a RIF at the opportune time or major re-org if I retired "involuntarily", or 4) work until MRA (57).
Can you clarify your last question? I never intended to receive my FERS supplement before my annuity/pension (assuming this is what you mean by FERS benefit). I was thinking they would kick in at the same time - but upon further reading it seems you are correct, that I would only qualify for the FERS supplement IF I had an immediate retirement after aging to at least 57 with 30 years of service. If I retired voluntarily at 54 with 30 years in and had my deferred pension start at 57 at my MRA, I would not qualify for the FERS supplement since the pension is deferred and voluntary. A rough estimate for my FERS supplement would be about 18k/year ($2000 monthly SS at age 62 *30 years of service / 40 ), so choosing to retire voluntarily at 54 and never coming back instead of waiting to 57 would result in about 90k min to 108k max worth of FERS supplement benefits I'd be missing out on covering years 57-62.
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@simonsez yes, I think we both understand the supplement better, this benefit is not available unless retiring with an immediate annuity at MRA. Talk about golden handcuffs! The conundrum for federal employees is one of why bother saving more than maxing out TSP if you plan to work until MRA. Doubt anyone needs more income/benefits in retirement than TSP, FERS, SS, SS Supplement, FEHB.
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I see there are a good number of federal excepted service careers represented here, including others in the Foreign Service. Our MRA is 20/50 (20 years in, 50 years of age). It just so happens that I joined when I was 29, so I will be right at 20 years in the year I turn 50 (2029). I am sticking it out because 7 years feels very close at this point. I can feel the wind picking up at my feet, and I can almost see the finish line; I can definitely sense it on the horizon.
What would I give up by leaving earlier? A supplemental annuity worth what Social Security would pay if I were eligible to receive it at age 50 and which would then run until full SS age (62), my Cadillac health insurance plan (which I get to keep for life after retirement and which, supplemented by Medicare Part B, will reduce health care expenses to practically nothing after age 65)… anything else? Let’s see… oh, my pension calculation will go from 1.7%/year to 1%/year. That’s significant. Payout of my sick leave, of which I use very little, so probably $30k worth of that. A few more things I am probably forgetting.
In short, in my circumstances, with only seven years to go, the juice seems worth the squeeze, as the saying goes. I will say this: I have been in for over 12 years at this point; I though the time would pass slowly, but it has passed very quickly. That said, I know some folks are looking at a much longer horizon, and I understand the hesitancy to stick it out if you are looking at 20 more years or more.
Then again… it does go quicker than we think when all is said and done, no?
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What would I give up by leaving earlier? A supplemental annuity worth what Social Security would pay if I were eligible to receive it at age 50 and which would then run until full SS age (62), my Cadillac health insurance plan (which I get to keep for life after retirement and which, supplemented by Medicare Part B, will reduce health care expenses to practically nothing after age 65)… anything else? Let’s see… oh, my pension calculation will go from 1.7%/year to 1%/year. That’s significant. Payout of my sick leave, of which I use very little, so probably $30k worth of that. A few more things I am probably forgetting.
Adding Medicare Part B won't reduce your expenses really, since you'll have to pay for Part B which is about $150 a month now. You don't need to get Part B if you have FEHB. You can just keep your FEHB, any plan you choose, an leave it at that.
I also have 7 years. I plan on just keeping my FEHB and not getting Part B.
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I see there are a good number of federal excepted service careers represented here, including others in the Foreign Service. Our MRA is 20/50 (20 years in, 50 years of age). It just so happens that I joined when I was 29, so I will be right at 20 years in the year I turn 50 (2029). I am sticking it out because 7 years feels very close at this point. I can feel the wind picking up at my feet, and I can almost see the finish line; I can definitely sense it on the horizon.
What would I give up by leaving earlier? A supplemental annuity worth what Social Security would pay if I were eligible to receive it at age 50 and which would then run until full SS age (62), my Cadillac health insurance plan (which I get to keep for life after retirement and which, supplemented by Medicare Part B, will reduce health care expenses to practically nothing after age 65)… anything else? Let’s see… oh, my pension calculation will go from 1.7%/year to 1%/year. That’s significant. Payout of my sick leave, of which I use very little, so probably $30k worth of that. A few more things I am probably forgetting.
In short, in my circumstances, with only seven years to go, the juice seems worth the squeeze, as the saying goes. I will say this: I have been in for over 12 years at this point; I though the time would pass slowly, but it has passed very quickly. That said, I know some folks are looking at a much longer horizon, and I understand the hesitancy to stick it out if you are looking at 20 more years or more.
Then again… it does go quicker than we think when all is said and done, no?
THis is absolute best case scenario for a federal career/retirement, either you planned perfectly or you are very lucky.
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Adding Medicare Part B won't reduce your expenses really, since you'll have to pay for Part B which is about $150 a month now. You don't need to get Part B if you have FEHB. You can just keep your FEHB, any plan you choose, an leave it at that.
I also have 7 years. I plan on just keeping my FEHB and not getting Part B.
I think I will be one of those people who will get it and pay the premiums just to have it "in case" -- as "insurance" against problems with my insurance, and for the flexibility and network options for coverage under a wider variety of circumstances. But you're right -- it does entail a premium cost that might not be the best financial option for most people.
THis is absolute best case scenario for a federal career/retirement, either you planned perfectly or you are very lucky.
I didn't plan for this, per se, at least not from the beginning. Once savings began to accumulate early in my career, I started my personal finance journey, educating myself and investing, and the rest is history. My original plan was to stick it out to 50, but 2029 seemed too far away toward the beginning of my career, so I shifted to a "FIRE" plan, intensified my savings, and took some high-paying assignments to further supercharge the savings. I blinked twice, woke up one morning, and realized that I had already been in for 12 years. How time flies. I decided not to FIRE for a number of reasons (you can read my case study thread if you are interested), so it seems I will end up a rich man, but that was never my original goal.
I will take credit for humility, frugality, being a shrewd thinker, and being someone who takes advice. I'm not a bad strategic planner, either, but anyone who has anything good going on for them got lucky to an extent.
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I see there are a good number of federal excepted service careers represented here, including others in the Foreign Service. Our MRA is 20/50 (20 years in, 50 years of age). It just so happens that I joined when I was 29, so I will be right at 20 years in the year I turn 50 (2029). I am sticking it out because 7 years feels very close at this point. I can feel the wind picking up at my feet, and I can almost see the finish line; I can definitely sense it on the horizon.
What would I give up by leaving earlier? A supplemental annuity worth what Social Security would pay if I were eligible to receive it at age 50 and which would then run until full SS age (62), my Cadillac health insurance plan (which I get to keep for life after retirement and which, supplemented by Medicare Part B, will reduce health care expenses to practically nothing after age 65)… anything else? Let’s see… oh, my pension calculation will go from 1.7%/year to 1%/year. That’s significant. Payout of my sick leave, of which I use very little, so probably $30k worth of that. A few more things I am probably forgetting.
In short, in my circumstances, with only seven years to go, the juice seems worth the squeeze, as the saying goes. I will say this: I have been in for over 12 years at this point; I though the time would pass slowly, but it has passed very quickly. That said, I know some folks are looking at a much longer horizon, and I understand the hesitancy to stick it out if you are looking at 20 more years or more.
Then again… it does go quicker than we think when all is said and done, no?
Welcome to another FSO and congratulations on your progress! You're well-situated for an awesome retirement. I'm a little ahead of you (< 5 years to go), but joined later in life.
One correction: Uncle Sam does not pay out unused sick leave, he applies it to your years of service upon retirement (though you cannot apply unused sick leave to reach your 20). For this reason, it makes more sense to schedule any needed medical & dental appointments just before your retirement. Unused sick leave => not paid out but added to your years of service; used sick leave => you get paid for it, and it's added to your years of service. Use those last few weeks of federal employment to see your cardiologist, proctologist / gynecologist, PT, massage therapist, mental health professional to help deal with the burnout ...
OTOH Uncle does pay out unused annual leave. You can see how much you'd receive at your current rate if you access HR applications -> Employee Retirement Portal -> Pay and Leave. Once I hit 15 years of service and started accumulating annual leave at the rate of 8 hours / pay period, I realized the difficulty in using it all. I expect a big payout of unused annual leave upon retirement.
I'll go check out your case study too.
Welcome!
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Welcome to another FSO and congratulations on your progress! You're well-situated for an awesome retirement. I'm a little ahead of you (< 5 years to go), but joined later in life.
One correction: Uncle Sam does not pay out unused sick leave, he applies it to your years of service upon retirement (though you cannot apply unused sick leave to reach your 20). For this reason, it makes more sense to schedule any needed medical & dental appointments just before your retirement. Unused sick leave => not paid out but added to your years of service; used sick leave => you get paid for it, and it's added to your years of service. Use those last few weeks of federal employment to see your cardiologist, proctologist / gynecologist, PT, massage therapist, mental health professional to help deal with the burnout ...
OTOH Uncle does pay out unused annual leave. You can see how much you'd receive at your current rate if you access HR applications -> Employee Retirement Portal -> Pay and Leave. Once I hit 15 years of service and started accumulating annual leave at the rate of 8 hours / pay period, I realized the difficulty in using it all. I expect a big payout of unused annual leave upon retirement.
I'll go check out your case study too.
Welcome!
Thank you for the warm welcome. Thank you also for clarifying the S/L payout question, which I just confirmed on rnet. We are only allowed to accumulate up to use-or-lose for A/L -- that is to say, at most, we could get a payout for 360 hours, correct?
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Welcome to another FSO and congratulations on your progress! You're well-situated for an awesome retirement. I'm a little ahead of you (< 5 years to go), but joined later in life.
One correction: Uncle Sam does not pay out unused sick leave, he applies it to your years of service upon retirement (though you cannot apply unused sick leave to reach your 20). For this reason, it makes more sense to schedule any needed medical & dental appointments just before your retirement. Unused sick leave => not paid out but added to your years of service; used sick leave => you get paid for it, and it's added to your years of service. Use those last few weeks of federal employment to see your cardiologist, proctologist / gynecologist, PT, massage therapist, mental health professional to help deal with the burnout ...
OTOH Uncle does pay out unused annual leave. You can see how much you'd receive at your current rate if you access HR applications -> Employee Retirement Portal -> Pay and Leave. Once I hit 15 years of service and started accumulating annual leave at the rate of 8 hours / pay period, I realized the difficulty in using it all. I expect a big payout of unused annual leave upon retirement.
I'll go check out your case study too.
Welcome!
Thank you for the warm welcome. Thank you also for clarifying the S/L payout question, which I just confirmed on rnet. We are only allowed to accumulate up to use-or-lose for A/L -- that is to say, at most, we could get a payout for 360 hours, correct?
Carryover of AL is 240 hours, and depending on your leave category it could be as much as 208 hours accrued in a year if you're at the 8 hr / PP category. In theory that could be 448 hours? But if you're financially set why not take time off?
If you feel that you are struggling you can see about getting a note to take FMLA for mental health for the majority of your SL.
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Welcome to another FSO and congratulations on your progress! You're well-situated for an awesome retirement. I'm a little ahead of you (< 5 years to go), but joined later in life.
One correction: Uncle Sam does not pay out unused sick leave, he applies it to your years of service upon retirement (though you cannot apply unused sick leave to reach your 20). For this reason, it makes more sense to schedule any needed medical & dental appointments just before your retirement. Unused sick leave => not paid out but added to your years of service; used sick leave => you get paid for it, and it's added to your years of service. Use those last few weeks of federal employment to see your cardiologist, proctologist / gynecologist, PT, massage therapist, mental health professional to help deal with the burnout ...
OTOH Uncle does pay out unused annual leave. You can see how much you'd receive at your current rate if you access HR applications -> Employee Retirement Portal -> Pay and Leave. Once I hit 15 years of service and started accumulating annual leave at the rate of 8 hours / pay period, I realized the difficulty in using it all. I expect a big payout of unused annual leave upon retirement.
I'll go check out your case study too.
Welcome!
Thank you for the warm welcome. Thank you also for clarifying the S/L payout question, which I just confirmed on rnet. We are only allowed to accumulate up to use-or-lose for A/L -- that is to say, at most, we could get a payout for 360 hours, correct?
Carryover of AL is 240 hours, and depending on your leave category it could be as much as 208 hours accrued in a year if you're at the 8 hr / PP category. In theory that could be 448 hours? But if you're financially set why not take time off?
If you feel that you are struggling you can see about getting a note to take FMLA for mental health for the majority of your SL.
And this is why I don't post on forums very often. In my post, I commented that I thought I would get a payout for accrued S/L upon regular retirement. elysianfields then responded by correctly noting that we do not get a payout for accrued S/L, so elysian fields suggested that, before I retire, I could use the accrued S/L for, among other things, "mental health professional to help deal with the burnout..." But I did not mention burnout. You are now concerned about my burnout and struggle and suggesting I get a note to take FMLA for mental health.
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Thank you for the warm welcome. Thank you also for clarifying the S/L payout question, which I just confirmed on rnet. We are only allowed to accumulate up to use-or-lose for A/L -- that is to say, at most, we could get a payout for 360 hours, correct?
@JJ- is right - You *could* maximize things by carrying over 240 (domestic) or 360 hours (if eligible = overseas) to your final year, then not taking any leave your last year and leaving on December 31. You'd get 8*26 = 208 + 360 = 568 hours paid out. But unlike S/L, if you take A/L => you get paid and it's added to years of service, and if you get it paid out => you get paid, but not added to your years of service.
It's a question of how much leave & YOS maximization you want to do.
Sorry my joke about needing mental health services for the burnout was misinterpreted. Mental health is not a joke! People who need help should seek it.
Working for Uncle Sugar sometimes is a joke, however...
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@JJ- is right - You *could* maximize things by carrying over 240 (domestic) or 360 hours (if eligible = overseas) to your final year, then not taking any leave your last year and leaving on December 31. You'd get 8*26 = 208 + 360 = 568 hours paid out. But unlike S/L, if you take A/L => you get paid and it's added to years of service, and if you get it paid out => you get paid, but not added to your years of service.
It's a question of how much leave & YOS maximization you want to do.
Sorry my joke about needing mental health services for the burnout was misinterpreted. Mental health is not a joke! People who need help should seek it.
Working for Uncle Sugar sometimes is a joke, however...
Didn't realize the limit was 360 overseas. Thanks.
And this is why I don't post on forums very often. In my post, I commented that I thought I would get a payout for accrued S/L upon regular retirement. elysianfields then responded by correctly noting that we do not get a payout for accrued S/L, so elysian fields suggested that, before I retire, I could use the accrued S/L for, among other things, "mental health professional to help deal with the burnout..." But I did not mention burnout. You are now concerned about my burnout and struggle and suggesting I get a note to take FMLA for mental health.
My intention was presenting an option for using SL. Nothing more. Sorry for hitting a sore spot for you.
Also, another option assuming you have a routine doctor visit (not implying you have a serious health condition or any other personal circumstance) - is that there is no limit on the time you can take for a doctor's visit if you read the regs. There is nothing to say you can't take a full day's worth of SL for an appointment that day. Whether you should is a different question and is entirely circumstantial and individual.
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My intention was presenting an option for using SL. Nothing more. Sorry for hitting a sore spot for you.
The "sore spot" for me is the "telephone game" we are playing. But you are right; it is another option for using S/L.
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OP here, 25 weeks after hitting my MRA. So ready to pull the rip cord…but rumors that VERA might be showing up at my agency in the next few months, so I am hanging on. Glad that this thread has proven useful to a fair number of people.
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OP here, 25 weeks after hitting my MRA. So ready to pull the rip cord…but rumors that VERA might be showing up at my agency in the next few months, so I am hanging on. Glad that this thread has proven useful to a fair number of people.
Any news @frugalecon ?
Mine: another month behind me, 51 months to reach MRA.
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OP here, 25 weeks after hitting my MRA. So ready to pull the rip cord…but rumors that VERA might be showing up at my agency in the next few months, so I am hanging on. Glad that this thread has proven useful to a fair number of people.
Any news @frugalecon ?
Mine: another month behind me, 51 months to reach MRA.
Hey @elysianfields , thanks for asking. No real news on the VERA front…that may not resolve one way or another until spring, based on scuttlebutt. Given the recent increase inflation and the fact that I wouldn’t receive a COLA for a number of years, I am going to just keep motoring on for a bit longer, I think. Padding the pension and the ‘stache just seems to make sense.
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I just submitted the form to get my pension contributions paid back to me. The frustrating part was that not only did my wife have to sign an attached form acknowledging that she wouldn't get any survivors benefits from a pensions I never earned - but they required two witness signatures. WTF? Apparently they don't trust me not to forge my wife's signature. So we had two of our kids sign the witness blocks. Nothing in the form says those witnesses need to be over 18 - and there was no notary. It's just insulting frankly.
Also, this form has to be mailed in - because it's almost 2022 and the federal government can't figure out how to process a form online. Just another reminder that I'm glad to be out of that bureaucratic mess that is stuck decades behind the rest of the world in terms of technology, processes, policies, etc. Much happier owning and running my own business now.
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I just submitted the form to get my pension contributions paid back to me. The frustrating part was that not only did my wife have to sign an attached form acknowledging that she wouldn't get any survivors benefits from a pensions I never earned - but they required two witness signatures. WTF? Apparently they don't trust me not to forge my wife's signature. So we had two of our kids sign the witness blocks. Nothing in the form says those witnesses need to be over 18 - and there was no notary. It's just insulting frankly.
Also, this form has to be mailed in - because it's almost 2022 and the federal government can't figure out how to process a form online. Just another reminder that I'm glad to be out of that bureaucratic mess that is stuck decades behind the rest of the world in terms of technology, processes, policies, etc. Much happier owning and running my own business now.
Now that everything has moved to the cloud, I like to say that the USG provides BAAS - Bureaucracy as a Service.
I know that in many European countries, they have policies or laws that require the gov’t in question only to ask for a particular piece of information (e.g. your address, social insurance number, DOB, tel. no.) once, so they build robust systems to ensure you don’t have to keep resubmitting info that the gov’t already has.
@Michael in ABQ sorry you had such an unpleasant experience. On the bright side, you’ll get your (most likely relatively small) pension contributions back.
I’ll continue to power through… we’re financing our last child’s higher ed expenses, paying down our HELOC, and continuing to build the stache. After graduation, it’s less than three years to MRA, so the FSPS and FEHP make it worth the effort.
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I just submitted the form to get my pension contributions paid back to me. The frustrating part was that not only did my wife have to sign an attached form acknowledging that she wouldn't get any survivors benefits from a pensions I never earned - but they required two witness signatures. WTF? Apparently they don't trust me not to forge my wife's signature. So we had two of our kids sign the witness blocks. Nothing in the form says those witnesses need to be over 18 - and there was no notary. It's just insulting frankly.
Also, this form has to be mailed in - because it's almost 2022 and the federal government can't figure out how to process a form online. Just another reminder that I'm glad to be out of that bureaucratic mess that is stuck decades behind the rest of the world in terms of technology, processes, policies, etc. Much happier owning and running my own business now.
This was the most frustrating part of rolling over an old IRA into my TSP. I've also locked my TSP as a security measure, so when I get ready to make withdrawals I'll have to mail in a bunch of identity information.
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FYI 2022 pay tables are out.
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2022/general-schedule/
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FYI 2022 pay tables are out.
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2022/general-schedule/
Pretty big difference between the 2022 and 2019 pay scale, so high three will be going up about $270 every month, as 2019 months roll off and 2022 months roll into the calculation.
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We’re at maximum telework these days, not that it makes much difference I’m afraid. The vaccinated rate is so low because vaccines are expensive, keeping them cold is an insurmountable obstacle, the population is under-educated (so misinformation runs unimpeded) and the host government is corrupt and incompetent. Hospitals are overrun and not up to the challenge under normal circumstances, COVID just makes it that much harder. We’ve had lots of breakthrough cases, even among boosted adults. Being vaccinated really does result in milder cases, from what I’ve observed. But the poor infrastructure (power & internet) makes telework nearly impossible for many local staff.
A clock somewhere has struck, 50 months to go before I can take the golden handcuffs to the pawn shop.
As I mentioned in the 2026 Cohort thread, if the stock market continues to drop, I’ll accelerate my contributions & investments if I can. While the market is priced for perfection, I suspect we’ll see good to great results when companies start announcing their Q4 results.
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Not hanging in for it, so much as it is just a part of the plan. About my youngest is in college I'll be hitting 20, so it's feasible I could do 25 if I like the work I'm doing and feel it has value. Teaching and grandparenting opportunities will also play a factor.
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We’re at maximum telework these days, not that it makes much difference I’m afraid. The vaccinated rate is so low because vaccines are expensive, keeping them cold is an insurmountable obstacle, the population is under-educated (so misinformation runs unimpeded) and the host government is corrupt and incompetent. Hospitals are overrun and not up to the challenge under normal circumstances, COVID just makes it that much harder. We’ve had lots of breakthrough cases, even among boosted adults. Being vaccinated really does result in milder cases, from what I’ve observed. But the poor infrastructure (power & internet) makes telework nearly impossible for many local staff.
A clock somewhere has struck, 50 months to go before I can take the golden handcuffs to the pawn shop.
As I mentioned in the 2026 Cohort thread, if the stock market continues to drop, I’ll accelerate my contributions & investments if I can. While the market is priced for perfection, I suspect we’ll see good to great results when companies start announcing their Q4 results.
I was telling a Texas counterpart I’m with on a TDY in LA that they should send their covidiots to TDY in LA and NY, you know where the idiots wouldn’t be allowed to eat at a restaurant indoors.
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We’re at maximum telework these days, not that it makes much difference I’m afraid. The vaccinated rate is so low because vaccines are expensive, keeping them cold is an insurmountable obstacle, the population is under-educated (so misinformation runs unimpeded) and the host government is corrupt and incompetent. Hospitals are overrun and not up to the challenge under normal circumstances, COVID just makes it that much harder. We’ve had lots of breakthrough cases, even among boosted adults. Being vaccinated really does result in milder cases, from what I’ve observed. But the poor infrastructure (power & internet) makes telework nearly impossible for many local staff.
A clock somewhere has struck, 50 months to go before I can take the golden handcuffs to the pawn shop.
As I mentioned in the 2026 Cohort thread, if the stock market continues to drop, I’ll accelerate my contributions & investments if I can. While the market is priced for perfection, I suspect we’ll see good to great results when companies start announcing their Q4 results.
I was telling a Texas counterpart I’m with on a TDY in LA that they should send their covidiots to TDY in LA and NY, you know where the idiots wouldn’t be allowed to eat at a restaurant indoors.
Nah, let 'em stay in TX where they can die for their freedom.
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We’re at maximum telework these days, not that it makes much difference I’m afraid. The vaccinated rate is so low because vaccines are expensive, keeping them cold is an insurmountable obstacle, the population is under-educated (so misinformation runs unimpeded) and the host government is corrupt and incompetent. Hospitals are overrun and not up to the challenge under normal circumstances, COVID just makes it that much harder. We’ve had lots of breakthrough cases, even among boosted adults. Being vaccinated really does result in milder cases, from what I’ve observed. But the poor infrastructure (power & internet) makes telework nearly impossible for many local staff.
A clock somewhere has struck, 50 months to go before I can take the golden handcuffs to the pawn shop.
As I mentioned in the 2026 Cohort thread, if the stock market continues to drop, I’ll accelerate my contributions & investments if I can. While the market is priced for perfection, I suspect we’ll see good to great results when companies start announcing their Q4 results.
What country are you in?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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We’re at maximum telework these days, not that it makes much difference I’m afraid. The vaccinated rate is so low because vaccines are expensive, keeping them cold is an insurmountable obstacle, the population is under-educated (so misinformation runs unimpeded) and the host government is corrupt and incompetent. Hospitals are overrun and not up to the challenge under normal circumstances, COVID just makes it that much harder. We’ve had lots of breakthrough cases, even among boosted adults. Being vaccinated really does result in milder cases, from what I’ve observed. But the poor infrastructure (power & internet) makes telework nearly impossible for many local staff.
A clock somewhere has struck, 50 months to go before I can take the golden handcuffs to the pawn shop.
As I mentioned in the 2026 Cohort thread, if the stock market continues to drop, I’ll accelerate my contributions & investments if I can. While the market is priced for perfection, I suspect we’ll see good to great results when companies start announcing their Q4 results.
What country are you in?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I’m going to keep that private for now, thanks for asking anyways.
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[/quote]
What country are you in?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]
I’m going to keep that private for now, thanks for asking anyways.
[/quote]
Elysian Fields, DoneFSO, and any other FSOs on this thread
Just a couple of thoughts from a retired FSO.
Unless the rules have changed, you can take the short retirement course up to five years before eligibility for retirement. It is worth taking the course early. It is the right place to ask specific questions like whether you need Medicare Parts B and D and how to use your benefits in the most advantageous manner while you still have time to plan. Immediately before retirement, you can take the "long" retirement course. That course is worth taking as well and includes some paid "job search" time, even if you aren't interested in looking for employment. It is similar (but less generous) than the retirement program the military offers to retiring officers.
BTW, the bureaucracy of retirement for FSOs is less than with most other agencies because State manages its own retirement system rather than running it through OPM. The requirements are still the same (you, your spouse and two witnesses will still have to sign if you don't want to reserve the most generous retirement benefits for your spouse), but the office gives clear instructions about what you need to do to prepare and the process is straightforward. I probably spent a few hours filling in forms and then less than 30 minutes in the office getting it processed. Checking out with my bureau, turning in IDs and cell phones and canceling Diplomatic passports (which I still miss) took a few more hours. State is normally very good about sending your first annuity payment on time and they usually give you cash from unused annual leave quickly as well.
Consider doing the paperwork to be on Bureaus' WAE lists, and talking to the appropriate EX Directors, especially if you are in one of the cones where WAE work is more common. I was not interested, but it works well for a lot of people.
Retired FSO is a good gig.
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Elysian Fields, DoneFSO, and any other FSOs on this thread
Just a couple of thoughts from a retired FSO.
Unless the rules have changed, you can take the short retirement course up to five years before eligibility for retirement. It is worth taking the course early. It is the right place to ask specific questions like whether you need Medicare Parts B and D and how to use your benefits in the most advantageous manner while you still have time to plan. Immediately before retirement, you can take the "long" retirement course. That course is worth taking as well and includes some paid "job search" time, even if you aren't interested in looking for employment. It is similar (but less generous) than the retirement program the military offers to retiring officers.
BTW, the bureaucracy of retirement for FSOs is less than with most other agencies because State manages its own retirement system rather than running it through OPM. The requirements are still the same (you, your spouse and two witnesses will still have to sign if you don't want to reserve the most generous retirement benefits for your spouse), but the office gives clear instructions about what you need to do to prepare and the process is straightforward. I probably spent a few hours filling in forms and then less than 30 minutes in the office getting it processed. Checking out with my bureau, turning in IDs and cell phones and canceling Diplomatic passports (which I still miss) took a few more hours. State is normally very good about sending your first annuity payment on time and they usually give you cash from unused annual leave quickly as well.
Consider doing the paperwork to be on Bureaus' WAE lists, and talking to the appropriate EX Directors, especially if you are in one of the cones where WAE work is more common. I was not interested, but it works well for a lot of people.
Retired FSO is a good gig.
@ROF Expat Welcome to the thread, thank you for your service, and thanks for this post!
The rules have changed: you may now take the five-day retirement seminar once a year. DW and I will take it again during our next home leave. We'll see whether the job-search seminar makes sense as an exit strategy. As discussed above, I'm considering how to use as much of my sick and annual leave as possible before retirement (if used, you get paid for the time AND it counts in your Time of Service; unused sick leave isn't paid BUT counts toward your ToS; unused annual leave gets paid out BUT doesn't count toward your ToS).
I'm glad to hear that State provides less BAAS (Bureaucracy as a Service) than OPM. An acquaintance just successfully retired after processing his retirement paperwork mere weeks before he pulled the ripcord.
I'm an IMS (~IT for non-State people reading along) and since State keeps neglecting to refill our ranks through recruitment, my services are in great demand. I'll probably register for WAE (now called REA - Re-employed Annuitants), but not sure whether I'll actually participate. We most likely won't need the money and we'll see whether I'm up for continuing the adventure a bit.
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As discussed above, I'm considering how to use as much of my sick and annual leave as possible before retirement (if used, you get paid for the time AND it counts in your Time of Service; unused sick leave isn't paid BUT counts toward your ToS
I don't see ow this is true. If I can retire in 6 months and have 2 months of sick leave, then I work for 6 months and 2 months of "time" is added to my retirement date. But if I use 2 month now and retire in 6 months, I got paid for not working but it won't be added to my retirement date. My pension will be based on retiring in 6 months, rather than 8. I retire in 6 months either way. It seems more like you can use it if you don't feel like going into work, or it can be added on to your retirement date for the purposes of calculating your pension, but not both.
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As discussed above, I'm considering how to use as much of my sick and annual leave as possible before retirement (if used, you get paid for the time AND it counts in your Time of Service; unused sick leave isn't paid BUT counts toward your ToS
I don't see ow this is true. If I can retire in 6 months and have 2 months of sick leave, then I work for 6 months and 2 months of "time" is added to my retirement date. But if I use 2 month now and retire in 6 months, I got paid for not working but it won't be added to my retirement date. My pension will be based on retiring in 6 months, rather than 8. I retire in 6 months either way. It seems more like you can use it if you don't feel like going into work, or it can be added on to your retirement date for the purposes of calculating your pension, but not both.
That's my understanding as well. I currently have 6+ months of sick leave in the bank, but I'm not planning to stay until MRA. So I've been using it to take extra time off so I won't lose all of it.
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As discussed above, I'm considering how to use as much of my sick and annual leave as possible before retirement (if used, you get paid for the time AND it counts in your Time of Service; unused sick leave isn't paid BUT counts toward your ToS
I don't see ow this is true. If I can retire in 6 months and have 2 months of sick leave, then I work for 6 months and 2 months of "time" is added to my retirement date. But if I use 2 month now and retire in 6 months, I got paid for not working but it won't be added to my retirement date. My pension will be based on retiring in 6 months, rather than 8. I retire in 6 months either way. It seems more like you can use it if you don't feel like going into work, or it can be added on to your retirement date for the purposes of calculating your pension, but not both.
I think the idea is that there's a third option. You use your leave, get paid while on leave, and are accruing time in service even though you're on leave. You would delay your retirement date by the amount of leave time you take. In this scenario, you might also get some other benefits (like locality pay) that you might not get if you take the cash value of leave. I don't think taking a lot of unnecessary sick leave is going to pass anybody's smell test, but choosing to take one's annual leave while in service rather than as cash after retirement seems reasonable.
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As discussed above, I'm considering how to use as much of my sick and annual leave as possible before retirement (if used, you get paid for the time AND it counts in your Time of Service; unused sick leave isn't paid BUT counts toward your ToS
I don't see ow this is true. If I can retire in 6 months and have 2 months of sick leave, then I work for 6 months and 2 months of "time" is added to my retirement date. But if I use 2 month now and retire in 6 months, I got paid for not working but it won't be added to my retirement date. My pension will be based on retiring in 6 months, rather than 8. I retire in 6 months either way. It seems more like you can use it if you don't feel like going into work, or it can be added on to your retirement date for the purposes of calculating your pension, but not both.
I think the idea is that there's a third option. You use your leave, get paid while on leave, and are accruing time in service even though you're on leave. You would delay your retirement date by the amount of leave time you take. In this scenario, you might also get some other benefits (like locality pay) that you might not get if you take the cash value of leave. I don't think taking a lot of unnecessary sick leave is going to pass anybody's smell test, but choosing to take one's annual leave while in service rather than as cash after retirement seems reasonable.
@ROF Expat has it right.
To clarify: I didn’t mention shirking nor not going to work because one doesn’t feel like it, and it makes more sense to consult with one’s ophthalmologist, cardiologist, dentist, &c. if one can do so before retirement rather than afterwards.
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As discussed above, I'm considering how to use as much of my sick and annual leave as possible before retirement (if used, you get paid for the time AND it counts in your Time of Service; unused sick leave isn't paid BUT counts toward your ToS
I don't see ow this is true. If I can retire in 6 months and have 2 months of sick leave, then I work for 6 months and 2 months of "time" is added to my retirement date. But if I use 2 month now and retire in 6 months, I got paid for not working but it won't be added to my retirement date. My pension will be based on retiring in 6 months, rather than 8. I retire in 6 months either way. It seems more like you can use it if you don't feel like going into work, or it can be added on to your retirement date for the purposes of calculating your pension, but not both.
I think the idea is that there's a third option. You use your leave, get paid while on leave, and are accruing time in service even though you're on leave. You would delay your retirement date by the amount of leave time you take. In this scenario, you might also get some other benefits (like locality pay) that you might not get if you take the cash value of leave. I don't think taking a lot of unnecessary sick leave is going to pass anybody's smell test, but choosing to take one's annual leave while in service rather than as cash after retirement seems reasonable.
@ROF Expat has it right.
To clarify: I didn’t mention shirking nor not going to work because one doesn’t feel like it, and it makes more sense to consult with one’s ophthalmologist, cardiologist, dentist, &c. if one can do so before retirement rather than afterwards.
If you take say 2 months of leave, like either shirking (no judgement) or going to doc appts, and delay your retirement by that 2 months so you retire in 8 months instead of 6, I guess you are getting paid and adding to your retirement date. You are also missing those two retirement pay checks, so you're really coming in for 2 extra months for not as much pay as you think since you'd be getting some pension payments just sitting at home.
Sure, if you need extended sick, or any sick then take it--no reason to save it now. I knew a guy who had both knees done before retirement. But if you're looking to retire asap (I am), then I'd rather just retire on time rather than extend my time to get paid and get credit for it. It seems like there's also a cost to working that extra 2 months, in the scenario above.
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As discussed above, I'm considering how to use as much of my sick and annual leave as possible before retirement (if used, you get paid for the time AND it counts in your Time of Service; unused sick leave isn't paid BUT counts toward your ToS
I don't see ow this is true. If I can retire in 6 months and have 2 months of sick leave, then I work for 6 months and 2 months of "time" is added to my retirement date. But if I use 2 month now and retire in 6 months, I got paid for not working but it won't be added to my retirement date. My pension will be based on retiring in 6 months, rather than 8. I retire in 6 months either way. It seems more like you can use it if you don't feel like going into work, or it can be added on to your retirement date for the purposes of calculating your pension, but not both.
I think the idea is that there's a third option. You use your leave, get paid while on leave, and are accruing time in service even though you're on leave. You would delay your retirement date by the amount of leave time you take. In this scenario, you might also get some other benefits (like locality pay) that you might not get if you take the cash value of leave. I don't think taking a lot of unnecessary sick leave is going to pass anybody's smell test, but choosing to take one's annual leave while in service rather than as cash after retirement seems reasonable.
@ROF Expat has it right.
To clarify: I didn’t mention shirking nor not going to work because one doesn’t feel like it, and it makes more sense to consult with one’s ophthalmologist, cardiologist, dentist, &c. if one can do so before retirement rather than afterwards.
If you take say 2 months of leave, like either shirking (no judgement) or going to doc appts, and delay your retirement by that 2 months so you retire in 8 months instead of 6, I guess you are getting paid and adding to your retirement date. You are also missing those two retirement pay checks, so you're really coming in for 2 extra months for not as much pay as you think since you'd be getting some pension payments just sitting at home.
Sure, if you need extended sick, or any sick then take it--no reason to save it now. I knew a guy who had both knees done before retirement. But if you're looking to retire asap (I am), then I'd rather just retire on time rather than extend my time to get paid and get credit for it. It seems like there's also a cost to working that extra 2 months, in the scenario above.
Agreed with that. For those that don't plan on getting immediate payments, or payments for 13+ years in my case, it makes more sense to take the sick leave during service.
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Elysian Fields, DoneFSO, and any other FSOs on this thread
Just a couple of thoughts from a retired FSO.
Unless the rules have changed, you can take the short retirement course up to five years before eligibility for retirement. It is worth taking the course early. It is the right place to ask specific questions like whether you need Medicare Parts B and D and how to use your benefits in the most advantageous manner while you still have time to plan. Immediately before retirement, you can take the "long" retirement course. That course is worth taking as well and includes some paid "job search" time, even if you aren't interested in looking for employment. It is similar (but less generous) than the retirement program the military offers to retiring officers.
BTW, the bureaucracy of retirement for FSOs is less than with most other agencies because State manages its own retirement system rather than running it through OPM. The requirements are still the same (you, your spouse and two witnesses will still have to sign if you don't want to reserve the most generous retirement benefits for your spouse), but the office gives clear instructions about what you need to do to prepare and the process is straightforward. I probably spent a few hours filling in forms and then less than 30 minutes in the office getting it processed. Checking out with my bureau, turning in IDs and cell phones and canceling Diplomatic passports (which I still miss) took a few more hours. State is normally very good about sending your first annuity payment on time and they usually give you cash from unused annual leave quickly as well.
Consider doing the paperwork to be on Bureaus' WAE lists, and talking to the appropriate EX Directors, especially if you are in one of the cones where WAE work is more common. I was not interested, but it works well for a lot of people.
Retired FSO is a good gig.
@ROF Expat Welcome to the thread, thank you for your service, and thanks for this post!
The rules have changed: you may now take the five-day retirement seminar once a year. DW and I will take it again during our next home leave. We'll see whether the job-search seminar makes sense as an exit strategy. As discussed above, I'm considering how to use as much of my sick and annual leave as possible before retirement (if used, you get paid for the time AND it counts in your Time of Service; unused sick leave isn't paid BUT counts toward your ToS; unused annual leave gets paid out BUT doesn't count toward your ToS).
I'm glad to hear that State provides less BAAS (Bureaucracy as a Service) than OPM. An acquaintance just successfully retired after processing his retirement paperwork mere weeks before he pulled the ripcord.
I'm an IMS (~IT for non-State people reading along) and since State keeps neglecting to refill our ranks through recruitment, my services are in great demand. I'll probably register for WAE (now called REA - Re-employed Annuitants), but not sure whether I'll actually participate. We most likely won't need the money and we'll see whether I'm up for continuing the adventure a bit.
I’m in a similar spot with my SCE law enforcement job on a similar time line. 42 months to go for me. I could totally be an Annuitant but the question would be why. I won’t need the money.
ETA: writing this while watching a NAFRE SCE retirement seminar.
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As discussed above, I'm considering how to use as much of my sick and annual leave as possible before retirement (if used, you get paid for the time AND it counts in your Time of Service; unused sick leave isn't paid BUT counts toward your ToS
I don't see ow this is true. If I can retire in 6 months and have 2 months of sick leave, then I work for 6 months and 2 months of "time" is added to my retirement date. But if I use 2 month now and retire in 6 months, I got paid for not working but it won't be added to my retirement date. My pension will be based on retiring in 6 months, rather than 8. I retire in 6 months either way. It seems more like you can use it if you don't feel like going into work, or it can be added on to your retirement date for the purposes of calculating your pension, but not both.
I think the idea is that there's a third option. You use your leave, get paid while on leave, and are accruing time in service even though you're on leave. You would delay your retirement date by the amount of leave time you take. In this scenario, you might also get some other benefits (like locality pay) that you might not get if you take the cash value of leave. I don't think taking a lot of unnecessary sick leave is going to pass anybody's smell test, but choosing to take one's annual leave while in service rather than as cash after retirement seems reasonable.
@ROF Expat has it right.
To clarify: I didn’t mention shirking nor not going to work because one doesn’t feel like it, and it makes more sense to consult with one’s ophthalmologist, cardiologist, dentist, &c. if one can do so before retirement rather than afterwards.
If you take say 2 months of leave, like either shirking (no judgement) or going to doc appts, and delay your retirement by that 2 months so you retire in 8 months instead of 6, I guess you are getting paid and adding to your retirement date. You are also missing those two retirement pay checks, so you're really coming in for 2 extra months for not as much pay as you think since you'd be getting some pension payments just sitting at home.
Sure, if you need extended sick, or any sick then take it--no reason to save it now. I knew a guy who had both knees done before retirement. But if you're looking to retire asap (I am), then I'd rather just retire on time rather than extend my time to get paid and get credit for it. It seems like there's also a cost to working that extra 2 months, in the scenario above.
Lots of good options being discussed! @sol was always a fan of draining your SL at the end as much as possible to take care of major surgeries while still getting paychecks and there weren't any health insurance complications (more pertinent to the early retiree). On the other extreme, I know a CSRS guy who retired at 58 with just under 2 years worth of unused SL. Any appointments or times that he was ill he'd just use his AL. He was also a high school soccer coach in great shape and there wasn't anything medical that he needed, at least not on any medium to long term basis where he could realistically drain down his unused SL, not be at the office, and still be employed with day to day operations running smoothly. He retired in December after going into the last year with the full 240 for a GS employee and retired with over 400 hours of AL as a fully stepped out 15. He and his wife went to Bermuda after his AL was paid out.
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As discussed above, I'm considering how to use as much of my sick and annual leave as possible before retirement (if used, you get paid for the time AND it counts in your Time of Service; unused sick leave isn't paid BUT counts toward your ToS
I don't see ow this is true. If I can retire in 6 months and have 2 months of sick leave, then I work for 6 months and 2 months of "time" is added to my retirement date. But if I use 2 month now and retire in 6 months, I got paid for not working but it won't be added to my retirement date. My pension will be based on retiring in 6 months, rather than 8. I retire in 6 months either way. It seems more like you can use it if you don't feel like going into work, or it can be added on to your retirement date for the purposes of calculating your pension, but not both.
I think the idea is that there's a third option. You use your leave, get paid while on leave, and are accruing time in service even though you're on leave. You would delay your retirement date by the amount of leave time you take. In this scenario, you might also get some other benefits (like locality pay) that you might not get if you take the cash value of leave. I don't think taking a lot of unnecessary sick leave is going to pass anybody's smell test, but choosing to take one's annual leave while in service rather than as cash after retirement seems reasonable.
"Sick leave pending retirement" is definitely a thing around here. But we're an industrial base, so far too often people are worn down and sick before they retire. My dad ended up taking his sick leave two to three days a week for months and ended up using his last 9 hours of sick leave on his last pay period. At the time, the union agreement said that you only had to have a doctor's note if you took more than three days in a week.
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Agreed with that. For those that don't plan on getting immediate payments, or payments for 13+ years in my case, it makes more sense to take the sick leave during service.
Same here. I'll have 10-ish years til I start getting my annuity, so I'd rather use up sick leave prior to leaving service. It's worth nothing once I leave early (deferred retirement).
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I’m in a similar spot with my SCE law enforcement job on a similar time line. 42 months to go for me. I could totally be an Annuitant but the question would be why. I won’t need the money.
ETA: writing this while watching a NAFRE SCE retirement seminar.
I can easily imagine why someone in a high pressure LEO position might have no desire to be an annuitant. For a lot of retired Foreign Service Officers and Specialists, working as annuitants isn't really about the money. Many people like the lifestyle and work of the Foreign Service like their work, and a fair number love it. If it works for you, there aren't a lot of alternatives out there. Even when people don't love their work, they often like a lot of their colleagues and the Foreign Service community. It isn't hard for the State Department to find retirees to work for a few weeks or months, especially in an interesting country.
I think some people view working as a State REA as a chance to have something like a slow travel experience (with a salary) in exchange for their willingness to work during the week.
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I'll probably register for WAE (now called REA - Re-employed Annuitants), but not sure whether I'll actually participate. We most likely won't need the money and we'll see whether I'm up for continuing the adventure a bit.
REA? Thanks for helping me not sound like the retired geezer that I am! (I left about five years ago.) I still call LES FSNs, too...
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We’re at maximum telework these days, not that it makes much difference I’m afraid. The vaccinated rate is so low because vaccines are expensive, keeping them cold is an insurmountable obstacle, the population is under-educated (so misinformation runs unimpeded) and the host government is corrupt and incompetent. Hospitals are overrun and not up to the challenge under normal circumstances, COVID just makes it that much harder. We’ve had lots of breakthrough cases, even among boosted adults. Being vaccinated really does result in milder cases, from what I’ve observed. But the poor infrastructure (power & internet) makes telework nearly impossible for many local staff.
A clock somewhere has struck, 50 months to go before I can take the golden handcuffs to the pawn shop.
As I mentioned in the 2026 Cohort thread, if the stock market continues to drop, I’ll accelerate my contributions & investments if I can. While the market is priced for perfection, I suspect we’ll see good to great results when companies start announcing their Q4 results.
What country are you in?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I’m going to keep that private for now, thanks for asking anyways.
Understood, was just confusing with the talk of issues around getting the vaccine where you are and then I realized you are outside the US.
just interesting to hear about hesitancy in a country other than the US.
Congratulations, hope the time flys for you.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I’m in a similar spot with my SCE law enforcement job on a similar time line. 42 months to go for me. I could totally be an Annuitant but the question would be why. I won’t need the money.
ETA: writing this while watching a NAFRE SCE retirement seminar.
I can easily imagine why someone in a high pressure LEO position might have no desire to be an annuitant. For a lot of retired Foreign Service Officers and Specialists, working as annuitants isn't really about the money. Many people like the lifestyle and work of the Foreign Service like their work, and a fair number love it. If it works for you, there aren't a lot of alternatives out there. Even when people don't love their work, they often like a lot of their colleagues and the Foreign Service community. It isn't hard for the State Department to find retirees to work for a few weeks or months, especially in an interesting country.
I think some people view working as a State REA as a chance to have something like a slow travel experience (with a salary) in exchange for their willingness to work during the week.
Ours have some more limited roles than fully employed, but they travel a lot so some similar appeal. Me I don’t want to be on anyones schedule and rather slow travel or something.
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I'll probably register for WAE (now called REA - Re-employed Annuitants), but not sure whether I'll actually participate. We most likely won't need the money and we'll see whether I'm up for continuing the adventure a bit.
REA? Thanks for helping me not sound like the retired geezer that I am! (I left about five years ago.) I still call LES FSNs, too...
Wait they aren’t FSNs, I did more overseas work 2008-2013.
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I’m in a similar spot with my SCE law enforcement job on a similar time line. 42 months to go for me. I could totally be an Annuitant but the question would be why. I won’t need the money.
ETA: writing this while watching a NAFRE SCE retirement seminar.
I can easily imagine why someone in a high pressure LEO position might have no desire to be an annuitant. For a lot of retired Foreign Service Officers and Specialists, working as annuitants isn't really about the money. Many people like the lifestyle and work of the Foreign Service like their work, and a fair number love it. If it works for you, there aren't a lot of alternatives out there. Even when people don't love their work, they often like a lot of their colleagues and the Foreign Service community. It isn't hard for the State Department to find retirees to work for a few weeks or months, especially in an interesting country.
I think some people view working as a State REA as a chance to have something like a slow travel experience (with a salary) in exchange for their willingness to work during the week.
Indeed, the plusses include visiting new countries or checking in on familiar ones and continuing with the FS community. If I REA'd, DW would come with me to explore the place whilst I'd toil away. One can also amass some miles & points, depending.
I'll probably register for WAE (now called REA - Re-employed Annuitants), but not sure whether I'll actually participate. We most likely won't need the money and we'll see whether I'm up for continuing the adventure a bit.
REA? Thanks for helping me not sound like the retired geezer that I am! (I left about five years ago.) I still call LES FSNs, too...
Wait they aren’t FSNs, I did more overseas work 2008-2013.
Yeah, every abbreviation gets updated, we use LES now, Locally Employed Staff. HR is now GTM - Global Talent Management. I wonder how much that stupid change cost the taxpayer. What was wrong with "personnel"? I tend to side with George Carlin on the use of euphemisms and newer terms.
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I’m in a similar spot with my SCE law enforcement job on a similar time line. 42 months to go for me. I could totally be an Annuitant but the question would be why. I won’t need the money.
ETA: writing this while watching a NAFRE SCE retirement seminar.
I can easily imagine why someone in a high pressure LEO position might have no desire to be an annuitant. For a lot of retired Foreign Service Officers and Specialists, working as annuitants isn't really about the money. Many people like the lifestyle and work of the Foreign Service like their work, and a fair number love it. If it works for you, there aren't a lot of alternatives out there. Even when people don't love their work, they often like a lot of their colleagues and the Foreign Service community. It isn't hard for the State Department to find retirees to work for a few weeks or months, especially in an interesting country.
I think some people view working as a State REA as a chance to have something like a slow travel experience (with a salary) in exchange for their willingness to work during the week.
Indeed, the plusses include visiting new countries or checking in on familiar ones and continuing with the FS community. If I REA'd, DW would come with me to explore the place whilst I'd toil away. One can also amass some miles & points, depending.
I'll probably register for WAE (now called REA - Re-employed Annuitants), but not sure whether I'll actually participate. We most likely won't need the money and we'll see whether I'm up for continuing the adventure a bit.
REA? Thanks for helping me not sound like the retired geezer that I am! (I left about five years ago.) I still call LES FSNs, too...
Wait they aren’t FSNs, I did more overseas work 2008-2013.
Yeah, every abbreviation gets updated, we use LES now, Locally Employed Staff. HR is now GTM - Global Talent Management. I wonder how much that stupid change cost the taxpayer. What was wrong with "personnel"? I tend to side with George Carlin on the use of euphemisms and newer terms.
My agency should be good with you all as long as they don’t rename RSO’s. We can’t keep up with our own agency name changes.
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Agreed with that. For those that don't plan on getting immediate payments, or payments for 13+ years in my case, it makes more sense to take the sick leave during service.
Same here. I'll have 10-ish years til I start getting my annuity, so I'd rather use up sick leave prior to leaving service. It's worth nothing once I leave early (deferred retirement).
Using sick leave to add to years of service for the pension calculation is only allowed if you retire and take an immediate annuity. If you defer retirement, it's not an option. Sick leave doesn't cash out when you separate, and basically just stays in your bank in case you return to federal service later. If you're never coming back, taking the sick leave during service is your only option to make use of it.
ETA: first post wasn't clear that they understood that, second post looked like they did...
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Agreed with that. For those that don't plan on getting immediate payments, or payments for 13+ years in my case, it makes more sense to take the sick leave during service.
Same here. I'll have 10-ish years til I start getting my annuity, so I'd rather use up sick leave prior to leaving service. It's worth nothing once I leave early (deferred retirement).
Using sick leave to add to years of service for the pension calculation is only allowed if you retire and take an immediate annuity. If you defer retirement, it's not an option. Sick leave doesn't cash out when you separate, and basically just stays in your bank in case you return to federal service later. If you're never coming back, taking the sick leave during service is your only option to make use of it.
ETA: first post wasn't clear that they understood that, second post looked like they did...
I wasn't aware thanks. Must have skimmed over that detail.
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I got a TO for a job in Okinawa this morning. Trying to figure out if it's feasible to take it. It would be a promotion and I'd have return rights home (at the lower grade). But I'd have a family that's pretty not happy about having to move. And sick in-laws who might not make it 2 years until we get back.
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I got a TO for a job in Okinawa this morning. Trying to figure out if it's feasible to take it. It would be a promotion and I'd have return rights home (at the lower grade). But I'd have a family that's pretty not happy about having to move. And sick in-laws who might not make it 2 years until we get back.
Sounds like it's not worth it.
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I got a TO for a job in Okinawa this morning. Trying to figure out if it's feasible to take it. It would be a promotion and I'd have return rights home (at the lower grade). But I'd have a family that's pretty not happy about having to move. And sick in-laws who might not make it 2 years until we get back.
Sounds like it's not worth it.
Unfortunately, that's kind of how I'm leaning. I also went back and looked at the job announcement and I'm not sure I'd enjoy the work. This will have been the second TJO I've turned down in six months. I guess that means my resume is working, so that's something?
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I got a TO for a job in Okinawa this morning. Trying to figure out if it's feasible to take it. It would be a promotion and I'd have return rights home (at the lower grade). But I'd have a family that's pretty not happy about having to move. And sick in-laws who might not make it 2 years until we get back.
Sounds like it's not worth it.
Unfortunately, that's kind of how I'm leaning. I also went back and looked at the job announcement and I'm not sure I'd enjoy the work. This will have been the second TJO I've turned down in six months. I guess that means my resume is working, so that's something?
If only our resumes could collect a paycheck.
On a more serious note... Why are you applying for TJOs if your family is not wanting to move?
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I got a TO for a job in Okinawa this morning. Trying to figure out if it's feasible to take it. It would be a promotion and I'd have return rights home (at the lower grade). But I'd have a family that's pretty not happy about having to move. And sick in-laws who might not make it 2 years until we get back.
Sounds like it's not worth it.
Unfortunately, that's kind of how I'm leaning. I also went back and looked at the job announcement and I'm not sure I'd enjoy the work. This will have been the second TJO I've turned down in six months. I guess that means my resume is working, so that's something?
If only our resumes could collect a paycheck.
On a more serious note... Why are you applying for TJOs if your family is not wanting to move?
Because when I applied for it several months ago things were different. My MIL's cancer has come back since then.
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I got a TO for a job in Okinawa this morning. Trying to figure out if it's feasible to take it. It would be a promotion and I'd have return rights home (at the lower grade). But I'd have a family that's pretty not happy about having to move. And sick in-laws who might not make it 2 years until we get back.
Sounds like it's not worth it.
Unfortunately, that's kind of how I'm leaning. I also went back and looked at the job announcement and I'm not sure I'd enjoy the work. This will have been the second TJO I've turned down in six months. I guess that means my resume is working, so that's something?
If only our resumes could collect a paycheck.
On a more serious note... Why are you applying for TJOs if your family is not wanting to move?
Because when I applied for it several months ago things were different. My MIL's cancer has come back since then.
Understood. Hang in there.
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It has also come to my attention that one of the medications that my husband relies on is actually illegal in Japan. That makes the decision much easier.
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I got a TO for a job in Okinawa this morning. Trying to figure out if it's feasible to take it. It would be a promotion and I'd have return rights home (at the lower grade). But I'd have a family that's pretty not happy about having to move. And sick in-laws who might not make it 2 years until we get back.
Sounds like it's not worth it.
Unfortunately, that's kind of how I'm leaning. I also went back and looked at the job announcement and I'm not sure I'd enjoy the work. This will have been the second TJO I've turned down in six months. I guess that means my resume is working, so that's something?
If only our resumes could collect a paycheck.
On a more serious note... Why are you applying for TJOs if your family is not wanting to move?
Because when I applied for it several months ago things were different. My MIL's cancer has come back since then.
Sorry to hear and hope she gets better soon.
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So I don’t think we ever calculated the correct answer, it must be 42, right?
Or maybe that’s just the number of months I have left?
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Resuscitating the thread to crow about my 37 months to go.
My partner and I enrolled in the Retirement Seminar for this summer since we're headed to the U.S. for home leave between tours. Darned if FSI changed the format to virtual - a rather stupid move in my book as summer time is when many people come through DC during transfer season. We're dropping the course - no point in our paying for lodging to take a virtual course. We'll find another time to take it in-person.
FSI also offers a transition course called "Job Search Program" with four weeks of presentations, resume-polishing, and information. After those four weeks, you get four more paid weeks with no work obligations - you're supposed to be starting your new business, applying for your next job, or whatever - and then you retire on the next day. Many people find it very useful, especially the last four weeks ;-). So I'm considering that as a last hurrah.
Edited to note that @ROF Expat also mentioned the JSP further upthread, though they call it the "long" retirement course.
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We're dropping the course - no point in our paying for lodging to take a virtual course. We'll find another time to take it in-person.
If it's virtual, could you take it from anywhere without paying for lodging? https://www.state.gov/career-transition-center-ctc/
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Resuscitating the thread to crow about my 37 months to go.
My partner and I enrolled in the Retirement Seminar for this summer since we're headed to the U.S. for home leave between tours. Darned if FSI changed the format to virtual - a rather stupid move in my book as summer time is when many people come through DC during transfer season. We're dropping the course - no point in our paying for lodging to take a virtual course. We'll find another time to take it in-person.
FSI also offers a transition course called "Job Search Program" with four weeks of presentations, resume-polishing, and information. After those four weeks, you get four more paid weeks with no work obligations - you're supposed to be starting your new business, applying for your next job, or whatever - and then you retire on the next day. Many people find it very useful, especially the last four weeks ;-). So I'm considering that as a last hurrah.
I’m at 30 months so I “win” right? Our retirement seminar went Virtual during COVID. It’s probably the only reason I got in. When it was in DC, there was only a few spots for out of town employees so those of outside DCA might not ever get into one.
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I'm at less than 5 years finally--now at 4.77 yrs or 58 months :)
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We're dropping the course - no point in our paying for lodging to take a virtual course. We'll find another time to take it in-person.
If it's virtual, could you take it from anywhere without paying for lodging? https://www.state.gov/career-transition-center-ctc/
The time zone difference makes that very challenging. Most likely we'll take it during an R&R in the US, and since it counts as training we can probably snag per diem for it.
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We're dropping the course - no point in our paying for lodging to take a virtual course. We'll find another time to take it in-person.
If it's virtual, could you take it from anywhere without paying for lodging? https://www.state.gov/career-transition-center-ctc/
The time zone difference makes that very challenging. Most likely we'll take it during an R&R in the US, and since it counts as training we can probably snag per diem for it.
Random resource suggestion for Feds:
https://stwserve.com/webinars-and-seminars/webinars-for-federal-employees/
Might not work for your timezone, but that guy's webinar series is better than any retirement planning seminar / training I've had via my own ageny. (Disclaimer: I don't vouch for him / don't work for him of course.)
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We're dropping the course - no point in our paying for lodging to take a virtual course. We'll find another time to take it in-person.
If it's virtual, could you take it from anywhere without paying for lodging? https://www.state.gov/career-transition-center-ctc/
The time zone difference makes that very challenging. Most likely we'll take it during an R&R in the US, and since it counts as training we can probably snag per diem for it.
Random resource suggestion for Feds:
https://stwserve.com/webinars-and-seminars/webinars-for-federal-employees/
Might not work for your timezone, but that guy's webinar series is better than any retirement planning seminar / training I've had via my own ageny. (Disclaimer: I don't vouch for him / don't work for him of course.)
Thanks for the links! We'll see when we get to our onward assignment in Asia whether those times work. Much appreciated!
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Reviving this thread for a check-in. We're still ~33 months from my years of service requirement.
I haven't discussed FEGLI at all and I feel it's an important topic for Federal retirees.
When I first joined the Foreign Circus, I provided the great majority of financial support to our family, so I set my FEGLI at Basic (1x my salary) + Option A (flat $10,000) + Option B at 5x my salary. In the meantime, my salary has grown with promotions & step increases, our stash has grown considerably, and our children have successfully launched. Consequently, our LI needs have reduced considerably. At the same time, I've grown older, a mixed bag which includes rising FEGLI premium rates, reducing the value of the insurance.
With our reduced LI needs, I've cut my Option B multiples by 1x each year over the past three years, saving money with the reduced premiums. Next year I plan to cut Option B to 1x, the following year I'll drop Option B completely, and my last year I'll drop Option A. When I retire, I'll take the 75% reduction, which means my LI value drops to 25% of my final salary rounded up, but the premiums are free for the rest of my life. One can also obtain Option A for free after age 65 with a reduction, but the premiums between my current age and 65 would rise greatly for a very small insurance benefit.
SECURE Act 2.0 brings important changes for Feds who participate in TSP, IRAs, and other retirement vehicles:
- Increase in the age for RMDs (ours go from 70.5 originally to 72 in SECURE Act 1.0 to 75 in SECURE Act 2.0);
- Elimination of the requirement for RMDs from Roth 401(k)s such as the TSP - this means we'll probably keep our Roth cash in TSP post-retirement;
- For persons who earned more than $145,000 with the employer a previous year, catch-up contributions must go to Roth TSP; currently one can direct catch-up contributions to deductible TSP. This might affect me, we'll see; if it does, it probably makes sense to contribute some to Roth in any case, given our large deductible portion of our portfolio and limited opportunities for Roth conversions due to expected pensions.
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@elysianfields thanks for info.
There are some other resources for feds that might justify lower Life Insurance costs... FERs survivor benefit, Children's Survivor Benefit, Basic Employee Death Benefit (payouts to survivor 50% of high three salary plus an 'indexed amount' sort of bonus).
Kind of wild to see how much the estimated amounts of all those benefits are on my HR's benefits system.
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Thanks for the update. I have 5 years and one month! I'm so happy.
I didn't know about the TSP catch up having to go in the Roth at some point. Good to know.
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When I retire, I'll take the 75% reduction, which means my LI value drops to 25% of my final salary rounded up, but the premiums are free for the rest of my life. One can also obtain Option A for free after age 65 with a reduction, but the premiums between my current age and 65 would rise greatly for a very small insurance benefit.
Be aware that even with the 75% reduction, FEGLI will not be premium-free until you reach age 65. You could be looking at paying a few thousand more for this (possibly unnecessary) life insurance before it becomes premium-free.
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When I retire, I'll take the 75% reduction, which means my LI value drops to 25% of my final salary rounded up, but the premiums are free for the rest of my life. One can also obtain Option A for free after age 65 with a reduction, but the premiums between my current age and 65 would rise greatly for a very small insurance benefit.
Be aware that even with the 75% reduction, FEGLI will not be premium-free until you reach age 65. You could be looking at paying a few thousand more for this (possibly unnecessary) life insurance before it becomes premium-free.
Thanks @sparkytheop, you're correct of course, the FEGLI Handbook quotes the cost at $0.325 monthly per $1k of insurance coverage for 75% reduction basic before age 65. Probably not worth it in our case, as I'm planning to bail several years before turning 65.
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I’m single. I dropped FEGLI in 2008 because it’s unnecessary. If I had gotten married I could have restated it due to change in life circumstances.
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I’m single. I dropped FEGLI in 2008 because it’s unnecessary. If I had gotten married I could have restated it due to change in life circumstances.
When I was a young Fed, I compared FEGLI premiums to a 20-year term policy, which I felt was sufficient for my needs. FEGLI was FAR more expensive than what I could get on the open market.
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I’m single. I dropped FEGLI in 2008 because it’s unnecessary. If I had gotten married I could have restated it due to change in life circumstances.
When I was a young Fed, I compared FEGLI premiums to a 20-year term policy, which I felt was sufficient for my needs. FEGLI was FAR more expensive than what I could get on the open market.
That's absolutely true, and we had about ten years left on a 15-year term when I joined DoS. We kept it until the term ran out and the premiums jumped.
Living overseas with the Foreign Service made it damn near impossible to obtain term LI in the U.S. - nobody wants to underwrite the risk of us living in those scary foreign places, and everybody wanted a new physical - so we've kept FEGLI until now. So far, FEGLI has won the bet, no complaints from me.
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Another thread revival to check in, make updates, and ask for feedback.
In the 2026 Cohort thread I mentioned receiving a promotion effective late last year. Since my pension is based on my "high three" - the highest three years of salary, usually the last three - it makes some sense to extend my work through 2026. However, the increase isn't really significant enough to change my pension in a life-altering way, and certainly not a reason to stay after 2026.
OTOH, my spouse remains some months short of qualifying for a pension; despite the small payoff, it makes more sense for her to continue working enough to qualify for something as opposed to nothing. This also plays into consideration of working OMY, and I'll drop that discussion for now.
Our rental house and long term tenants have provided excellent income and stability, and we're now needing to reinvest funds into some long-term maintenance which we almost entirely expected. We're tapping our HELOC to cover this, as well as some personal and medical expenses. Due to the rise in interest rates, we're paying a significant monthly interest bill, not all of which is tax-deductible. At the same time, our investment portfolio has enlarged greatly, not only due to the latest market run-up, but also because we have fully funded our TSPs, HSAs, and Roth IRAs pretty much since starting my career in the FS. In fact, I'm concerned enough about RMD-driven tax bills after age 75 that we've started converting Traditional IRA funds to Roth, and paying the 22% marginal Federal tax rate.
With just a few years remaining before ejecting, I'm considering cutting our TSP contributions to the minimum amount to obtain the full match in favor of deleveraging our balance sheet. Our current HELOC interest rate barely exceeds the guideline in the Investment order thread (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/msg1333153/#msg1333153) for becoming investment priority #2. The latest run-up in market values has me worried about CAPE levels, and I doubt to this above-LT-trend market performance can continue, making holding / increasing debt in exchange for lower expected portfolio returns a poor wager.
We currently hold no bonds in our portfolios since 1) our pensions will provide much of the income one expects from bonds, and on a partially inflation-adjusted basis; and 2) it makes no sense to invest in bonds while paying interest on debt (except for mortgages - we're firmly in the NPOYM club).
Upon retirement, we can access our retirement funds any time we wish, and we could easily wipe out the non-tax-deductible debt in one felled swoop. In the meantime, I wonder whether paying some of it down provides some peace of mind and flexibility, and welcome others' thoughts.
Of interest to other Feds, TSP announced some months back that they'll implement the SECURE Act 2.0-required change to catch-up contributions beginning in 2026. To recap what I wrote upthread, SECURE Act 2.0 requires employees who earned more than $145,000 (inflation-adjusted) in the previous tax year to have their catch-up contributions go to Roth instead of Traditional TSP. Affected TSP participants can continue to direct their regular (non-catch-up) contributions to Roth or Traditional as they wish. This wouldn't affect us anyway, as we've already started directing our contributions to Roth TSP in view of the RMD tax issue previously mentioned.
I continue to cut back my FEGLI level every year as described earlier.
How is everyone else doing on their countdown to MRA?
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I still have plans to stick it out until MRA, unless we are offered a VERA, and then I will take that once eligible.
However, I'm now in the position to defer my retirement if they decide to change my job up too much, to where I can no longer easily tolerate it. If that happens, I might quit and never work again, I might seek out a "fun job" to help cover health insurance and be able to continue to contribute to retirement accounts, or I may seek out a different fed job I find more tolerable. It would be hard to walk away from immediate pension and other benefits, but some things are worth more.
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I have blown right on through my MRA, and am now targeting 60 for an unreduced pension. (I don’t have 30 years in the system, so I am not yet eligible for an unreduced pension.) It has really been a slog at times, but now with 193 actual work days to go, it feels achievable. It might have been harder w/o the COVID flexibilities.
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I've now been retired for 6+ years. I'm still over a year away from MRA and my deferred pension. Sure, I could have splurged a lot more if I had kept working, but I haven't regretted pulling the plug for a minute.
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I still have plans to stick it out until MRA, unless we are offered a VERA, and then I will take that once eligible.
However, I'm now in the position to defer my retirement if they decide to change my job up too much, to where I can no longer easily tolerate it. If that happens, I might quit and never work again, I might seek out a "fun job" to help cover health insurance and be able to continue to contribute to retirement accounts, or I may seek out a different fed job I find more tolerable. It would be hard to walk away from immediate pension and other benefits, but some things are worth more.
I wish State would offer a VERA, but we're constantly short of IT staff.
I hear you, @sparkytheop about walking away, and I'm so close to the finish line that I'll keep on keeping on. As I've said elsewhere, I value the FEHB for life more than the pension itself. How long to go if you stay on?
I have blown right on through my MRA, and am now targeting 60 for an unreduced pension. (I don’t have 30 years in the system, so I am not yet eligible for an unreduced pension.) It has really been a slog at times, but now with 193 actual work days to go, it feels achievable. It might have been harder w/o the COVID flexibilities.
Wow, @frugalecon you're much closer to the finish line than I. You have, what, nine months to go? You're almost there, you can make it! What does your portfolio look like, have you hit your number?
I've now been retired for 6+ years. I'm still over a year away from MRA and my deferred pension. Sure, I could have splurged a lot more if I had kept working, but I haven't regretted pulling the plug for a minute.
Wow, that's amazing, @Monkey Uncle , glad to hear you have no regrets and made the best decision for you & yours. What prompted your early exit, if you don't mind sharing?
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I have blown right on through my MRA, and am now targeting 60 for an unreduced pension. (I don’t have 30 years in the system, so I am not yet eligible for an unreduced pension.) It has really been a slog at times, but now with 193 actual work days to go, it feels achievable. It might have been harder w/o the COVID flexibilities.
Wow, @frugalecon you're much closer to the finish line than I. You have, what, nine months to go? You're almost there, you can make it! What does your portfolio look like, have you hit your number?
In calendar time I have a little over 11 months to go, but I may take the last month as leave, if I am ready.
Portfolio is in good shape, at 110% of target number, which is already fairly conservative. That is why I would feel comfortable just leaving now if I decide that is the right thing. But there is a pretty strong financial inducement to wait until 60, and my remaining leave and holidays amount to 25% of the remaining calendar days. It should be doable.
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I've been counting down for years. lol. I have just over 4 years left. August 4, 2028 is my last day. :) I've been resolute in that for years. But to be honest, the closer it gets the more worried I get that it's not enough time. Specifically my adult kids aren't launched yet and it's starting to feel like they never will be. They have mental health issues. OCD, Asperger's, ADHD, Anxiety, Depression, etc. At 21 and 24, they take two college classes at a time and have never worked a day in their lives. They also do nothing around the house or care for themselves in any way. They're both in therapy, meds, etc., but I'm feeling like 4 years will come and go and they'll still be totally dependent on me.
All I want is to lie on a beach in Costa Rica. I've never even been, but it's my number one fantasy.
Anyway, I never had a number in mind. I always just figured I'd rather live in a studio apartment than work a day longer than I had to. But the older my kids get, the more crowded that studio apartment is looking.
ETA: To be clear, I adore my kids. They are really sweet smart funny great people. I'm just super worried about them.
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I've been counting down for years. lol. I have just over 4 years left. August 4, 2028 is my last day. :) I've been resolute in that for years. But to be honest, the closer it gets the more worried I get that it's not enough time. Specifically my adult kids aren't launched yet and it's starting to feel like they never will be. They have mental health issues. OCD, Asperger's, ADHD, Anxiety, Depression, etc. At 21 and 24, they take two college classes at a time and have never worked a day in their lives. They also do nothing around the house or care for themselves in any way. They're both in therapy, meds, etc., but I'm feeling like 4 years will come and go and they'll still be totally dependent on me.
All I want is to lie on a beach in Costa Rica. I've never even been, but it's my number one fantasy.
Anyway, I never had a number in mind. I always just figured I'd rather live in a studio apartment than work a day longer than I had to. But the older my kids get, the more crowded that studio apartment is looking.
ETA: To be clear, I adore my kids. They are really sweet smart funny great people. I'm just super worried about them.
Denise,
Coincidentally, my first post-retirement trip will be two weeks in Costa Rica (which I also have never visited). This is a trip with some friends who are retiring at about the same time as me. (My spouse is already retired.)
Your situation with your kids sounds very daunting. I wonder if there are support groups or other resources to help parents in your situation. There must be online communities like MMM, too. To state the obvious, they will likely not be able to depend on your support forever, so it is really a question of when they will have no choice but to either live independently or rely on other resources. If you have four years before your planned retirement date, an overarching goal should perhaps be to ensure that they are at that point in their lives at that time. But I don’t have direct experience with this, so maybe that is just not realistic.
Good luck (and I hope you are getting some support around this yourself).
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I've been counting down for years. lol. I have just over 4 years left. August 4, 2028 is my last day. :) I've been resolute in that for years. But to be honest, the closer it gets the more worried I get that it's not enough time. Specifically my adult kids aren't launched yet and it's starting to feel like they never will be. They have mental health issues. OCD, Asperger's, ADHD, Anxiety, Depression, etc. At 21 and 24, they take two college classes at a time and have never worked a day in their lives. They also do nothing around the house or care for themselves in any way. They're both in therapy, meds, etc., but I'm feeling like 4 years will come and go and they'll still be totally dependent on me.
All I want is to lie on a beach in Costa Rica. I've never even been, but it's my number one fantasy.
Anyway, I never had a number in mind. I always just figured I'd rather live in a studio apartment than work a day longer than I had to. But the older my kids get, the more crowded that studio apartment is looking.
ETA: To be clear, I adore my kids. They are really sweet smart funny great people. I'm just super worried about them.
Hi @DeniseNJ ,
Thanks for checking in.
Wow, tough one, and obviously everyone wants their children to do well. It's great that they're getting help and taking two classes per semester, that's better than zero, and can they take baby steps, such as working retail or fast food a few hours a week? Can you have them each take on one chore around the house to start?
I agree with frugalecon, it would behoove you all to develop a plan. Does your agency have an employee assistance program to help with these sorts of issues? Does NJ have any resources that could help?
In the case of the FS, children who develop certain mental health issues before 18 or 19 (I forget) qualify for support under the Foreign Service Pension System when the employee retires, but I don't know whether that's available in FERS (assuming that's your defined benefit plan).
Wishing you courage as you consider next steps.
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My plan is to stay in service until MRA but that is super far down the road. I'm only 34. But, I already have 12 years of service and I've been a GS-13 for 5 years. I absolutely love my job and I wouldn't want to quit anytime soon anyway.
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I wish State would offer a VERA, but we're constantly short of IT staff.
I hear you, @sparkytheop about walking away, and I'm so close to the finish line that I'll keep on keeping on. As I've said elsewhere, I value the FEHB for life more than the pension itself. How long to go if you stay on?
I've got over a decade to MRA, but have 23 years of service. We get VERA surveys pretty much annually at this point, so I can only hope that the trend continues for a few years and that they'd be willing to let someone in my position go (they would need to fill behind the position, eliminating another one, which means if anyone in one of those other positions wants it, they'd get it before I would.)
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I think there is a less than 5% chance that I would ride it out until MRA. That's another 19 years. Only way that would happen is if I want to retire in a VHCOL area. :D
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I think there is a less than 5% chance that I would ride it out until MRA. That's another 19 years. Only way that would happen is if I want to retire in a VHCOL area. :D
If you live in Orange County, that qualifies as a VHCOL area! Are you planning on doing some geoarbitrage, @tj ?
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I think there is a less than 5% chance that I would ride it out until MRA. That's another 19 years. Only way that would happen is if I want to retire in a VHCOL area. :D
If you live in Orange County, that qualifies as a VHCOL area! Are you planning on doing some geoarbitrage, @tj ?
I do plan on moving after I hit my numbers. I'm probably a few years out depending on market. I can't afford to buy any real estate and I'd like to own something cheap in retirement. I could make it work in the California desert where my parents have one of their places, but might just head back to Arizona.
I think the higher locality pay is sufficient to live here while I need to continue to accumulate. My overall expenses aren't significantly higher than when i lived in Arizona, but i am definitely more homebody-ish here and I'm spending more on rent and less on fun.
It's really cool to live in a walkable area by the beach, but at the same time, it's too cold for me most of the year! It's late march and it was under 60 degrees today!
If I wanted to buy real estate in coastal SoCal....I don't think my income would even qualify for a mortgage.
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I've now been retired for 6+ years. I'm still over a year away from MRA and my deferred pension. Sure, I could have splurged a lot more if I had kept working, but I haven't regretted pulling the plug for a minute.
Wow, that's amazing, @Monkey Uncle , glad to hear you have no regrets and made the best decision for you & yours. What prompted your early exit, if you don't mind sharing?
Sorry for the slow response. I've been traveling for the last month and haven't been checking the forum.
Basically, I was fried and ready to get out. The "do more with less" insanity just kept getting worse year after year. I worked in public lands management, which involves trying to settle intractable disputes between multiple internal and external stakeholders, so it was just one big conflict day in and day out. And at the end of the first year of the Trump administration, it was crystal clear that the agency was going to be pursuing policies that made me want to vomit. I ran the numbers and it seemed pretty doable, so I saw no point in subjecting myself to another 7+ years of that crap.
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I've now been retired for 6+ years. I'm still over a year away from MRA and my deferred pension. Sure, I could have splurged a lot more if I had kept working, but I haven't regretted pulling the plug for a minute.
Wow, that's amazing, @Monkey Uncle , glad to hear you have no regrets and made the best decision for you & yours. What prompted your early exit, if you don't mind sharing?
Sorry for the slow response. I've been traveling for the last month and haven't been checking the forum.
Basically, I was fried and ready to get out. The "do more with less" insanity just kept getting worse year after year. I worked in public lands management, which involves trying to settle intractable disputes between multiple internal and external stakeholders, so it was just one big conflict day in and day out. And at the end of the first year of the Trump administration, it was crystal clear that the agency was going to be pursuing policies that made me want to vomit. I ran the numbers and it seemed pretty doable, so I saw no point in subjecting myself to another 7+ years of that crap.
I certainly feel you there, my last assignment burned me out, and if TFG becomes TNG, that will make for a very… erm… interesting last dash for the finish line. Fortunately, I haven’t had to fight such intractable battles as you. Glad that the numbers are working for you.
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I've been counting down for years. lol. I have just over 4 years left. August 4, 2028 is my last day. :) I've been resolute in that for years. But to be honest, the closer it gets the more worried I get that it's not enough time. Specifically my adult kids aren't launched yet and it's starting to feel like they never will be. They have mental health issues. OCD, Asperger's, ADHD, Anxiety, Depression, etc. At 21 and 24, they take two college classes at a time and have never worked a day in their lives. They also do nothing around the house or care for themselves in any way. They're both in therapy, meds, etc., but I'm feeling like 4 years will come and go and they'll still be totally dependent on me.
All I want is to lie on a beach in Costa Rica. I've never even been, but it's my number one fantasy.
Anyway, I never had a number in mind. I always just figured I'd rather live in a studio apartment than work a day longer than I had to. But the older my kids get, the more crowded that studio apartment is looking.
ETA: To be clear, I adore my kids. They are really sweet smart funny great people. I'm just super worried about them.
As the parent of an adult child with mental health issues, I can relate to your predicament. The unfortunate truth is that treatments for mental illnesses don't work very well for the majority of patients, and loved ones should expect a life-long struggle. I hadn't fully reached that realization when I retired back at the beginning of 2018. I don't know whether it would have changed my decision. Regardless, things have worked out so far. Not that it's been easy by any stretch of the imagination. But our kid is currently stable and is largely supporting himself. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to compare notes.
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I've been counting down for years. lol. I have just over 4 years left. August 4, 2028 is my last day. :) I've been resolute in that for years. But to be honest, the closer it gets the more worried I get that it's not enough time. Specifically my adult kids aren't launched yet and it's starting to feel like they never will be. They have mental health issues. OCD, Asperger's, ADHD, Anxiety, Depression, etc. At 21 and 24, they take two college classes at a time and have never worked a day in their lives. They also do nothing around the house or care for themselves in any way. They're both in therapy, meds, etc., but I'm feeling like 4 years will come and go and they'll still be totally dependent on me.
All I want is to lie on a beach in Costa Rica. I've never even been, but it's my number one fantasy.
Anyway, I never had a number in mind. I always just figured I'd rather live in a studio apartment than work a day longer than I had to. But the older my kids get, the more crowded that studio apartment is looking.
ETA: To be clear, I adore my kids. They are really sweet smart funny great people. I'm just super worried about them.
As the parent of an adult child with mental health issues, I can relate to your predicament. The unfortunate truth is that treatments for mental illnesses don't work very well for the majority of patients, and loved ones should expect a life-long struggle. I hadn't fully reached that realization when I retired back at the beginning of 2018. I don't know whether it would have changed my decision. Regardless, things have worked out so far. Not that it's been easy by any stretch of the imagination. But our kid is currently stable and is largely supporting himself. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to compare notes.
Thanks! I appreciate your response. It's such a shame bc my kids are both really smart but depression, anxiety, and OCD grip hard and it's nearly impossible to get anything done without being completely overwhelmed by even a short list of simple tasks. But I tend to think they would get more done if I wasn't around to do everything for them. We'll see what happens when I run off to Costa Rica. :)