Author Topic: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?  (Read 361999 times)

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4450 on: November 03, 2020, 11:15:04 AM »

Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

That's not at all what I said.

I have no issue with people doing essential things (work / groceries).  Everyone has to do these things (or at least I certainly do).

I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

These are the behaviours I'd compare to drunk driving - the ones where you risk the lives of others out of boredom.

The thing is you can't even respond to the fact that you are accusing others of the equivalent of drunk driving, or acknowledge that your tolerance is different than others without inserting your morality on what's right v wrong into other people's lives. There is never an excuse for drunk driving. There are however many excuses for going out, and they might be necessary in that person's eyes, while not in yours. I am not going to PM you before I decide whether I should leave the house or not. I'm not even going to contact my local politician.

Its like the person above who said that they went to a public celebration and stayed in their car with mask on. Or the person on my FB feed who stated that they were volunteering to drive others to the polls today, but then had to add that they're "masking and using ventilation" in their vehicles (before someone could possibly chime in that it might not be safe). Score +1 for the woke police! Dear god, people have become insufferable.

So is it cool for me to drink 3 beers then go for a drive?

I've seen you falling prey to the same logistical fallacy on the forums lately too, so I'm not surprised you chimed in. Go for it. But before you do that could you please berate guitar steve for going to the grocery store? He admitted up thread that he did it, and someone somewhere is sure to disapprove of his choices.

I'm not taking sides, I'm just trying to find out where you draw the line since it's not clear to me.  You stated there is never an excuse for drunk driving, but I'm not clear on exactly what you mean.  Does that mean zero tolerance?  Or is it up to my discretion as to whether driving is necessary at that point?

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4451 on: November 03, 2020, 11:18:50 AM »
If you want to go out to eat at a sit down restaurant, then do it. But you're doing it because you want to and you're over it. That's it. There is no grander story to tell about the inevitability of the virus or the futility of precautions. You just want to go to Applebees. That's fine.

Nothing is a better signal of someone not getting it than comparing someone else's life to "wanting to go to Applebee's." It is a dead give-away that this person is extremely privileged and pretends to have empathy, but actually doesn't.

charis

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4452 on: November 03, 2020, 11:25:46 AM »

Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

That's not at all what I said.

I have no issue with people doing essential things (work / groceries).  Everyone has to do these things (or at least I certainly do).

I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

These are the behaviours I'd compare to drunk driving - the ones where you risk the lives of others out of boredom.

The thing is you can't even respond to the fact that you are accusing others of the equivalent of drunk driving, or acknowledge that your tolerance is different than others without inserting your morality on what's right v wrong into other people's lives. There is never an excuse for drunk driving. There are however many excuses for going out, and they might be necessary in that person's eyes, while not in yours. I am not going to PM you before I decide whether I should leave the house or not. I'm not even going to contact my local politician.

Its like the person above who said that they went to a public celebration and stayed in their car with mask on. Or the person on my FB feed who stated that they were volunteering to drive others to the polls today, but then had to add that they're "masking and using ventilation" in their vehicles (before someone could possibly chime in that it might not be safe). Score +1 for the woke police! Dear god, people have become insufferable.

So is it cool for me to drink 3 beers then go for a drive?

I've seen you falling prey to the same logistical fallacy on the forums lately too, so I'm not surprised you chimed in. Go for it. But before you do that could you please berate guitar steve for going to the grocery store? He admitted up thread that he did it, and someone somewhere is sure to disapprove of his choices.

I'm not taking sides, I'm just trying to find out where you draw the line since it's not clear to me.  You stated there is never an excuse for drunk driving, but I'm not clear on exactly what you mean.  Does that mean zero tolerance?  Or is it up to my discretion as to whether driving is necessary at that point?

Drunk driving has a line - it is a limit clearly defined by law. If you consume three beers and are not intoxicated or impaired when you go to drive, then yes, you can do that. It has nothing to do with the purpose of the driving.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4453 on: November 03, 2020, 11:29:52 AM »

Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

That's not at all what I said.

I have no issue with people doing essential things (work / groceries).  Everyone has to do these things (or at least I certainly do).

I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

These are the behaviours I'd compare to drunk driving - the ones where you risk the lives of others out of boredom.

The thing is you can't even respond to the fact that you are accusing others of the equivalent of drunk driving

I'd like you to very carefully read the sentence just above the one you posted.

or acknowledge that your tolerance is different than others without inserting your morality on what's right v wrong into other people's lives.  There is never an excuse for drunk driving. There are however many excuses for going out, and they might be necessary in that person's eyes, while not in yours. I am not going to PM you before I decide whether I should leave the house or not. I'm not even going to contact my local politician.

Your choices are certainly your own to make based upon your own tolerance.  But your own tolerance then directly impacts others.  Just as every driver is free to guzzle booze and then hit the roads, every person is free to ignore all precautions and recommendations.  But don't expect other people to be OK with it when you're endangering their lives.

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4454 on: November 03, 2020, 11:34:01 AM »

Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

That's not at all what I said.

I have no issue with people doing essential things (work / groceries).  Everyone has to do these things (or at least I certainly do).

I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

These are the behaviours I'd compare to drunk driving - the ones where you risk the lives of others out of boredom.

The thing is you can't even respond to the fact that you are accusing others of the equivalent of drunk driving, or acknowledge that your tolerance is different than others without inserting your morality on what's right v wrong into other people's lives. There is never an excuse for drunk driving. There are however many excuses for going out, and they might be necessary in that person's eyes, while not in yours. I am not going to PM you before I decide whether I should leave the house or not. I'm not even going to contact my local politician.

Its like the person above who said that they went to a public celebration and stayed in their car with mask on. Or the person on my FB feed who stated that they were volunteering to drive others to the polls today, but then had to add that they're "masking and using ventilation" in their vehicles (before someone could possibly chime in that it might not be safe). Score +1 for the woke police! Dear god, people have become insufferable.

So is it cool for me to drink 3 beers then go for a drive?

That's a purely mathematical question. What's the ABV of the beers? What was the period of time you drank the beers in? How much do you weigh?

Right, because this issue has been around and has been legislated.  It doesn't matter the ABV, my weight, or the time period, ultimately the only thing that matters is my blood alcohol content at the time of operating a vehicle.  It's been pretty clearly defined in the law exactly what is and what isn't acceptable.  However before that was true, it was way less clear, and often a matter of opinion.  Some thought it was dangerous and reckless to drive drunk, and others thought "fuck you, I'll drive whenever I want regardless".  Still to this day almost everyone I know will drive home from a bar while buzzed, and some even flat out drunk, because what are you gonna do?  Gotta get that car home, right?

To me this seems to be a very similar argument.  Some think it's dangerous and reckless to hold an indoor gather with 30 people.  Other people think "fuck you, I'll have a party whenever I want regardless". 

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4455 on: November 03, 2020, 11:37:48 AM »

Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

That's not at all what I said.

I have no issue with people doing essential things (work / groceries).  Everyone has to do these things (or at least I certainly do).

I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

These are the behaviours I'd compare to drunk driving - the ones where you risk the lives of others out of boredom.

The thing is you can't even respond to the fact that you are accusing others of the equivalent of drunk driving, or acknowledge that your tolerance is different than others without inserting your morality on what's right v wrong into other people's lives. There is never an excuse for drunk driving. There are however many excuses for going out, and they might be necessary in that person's eyes, while not in yours. I am not going to PM you before I decide whether I should leave the house or not. I'm not even going to contact my local politician.

Its like the person above who said that they went to a public celebration and stayed in their car with mask on. Or the person on my FB feed who stated that they were volunteering to drive others to the polls today, but then had to add that they're "masking and using ventilation" in their vehicles (before someone could possibly chime in that it might not be safe). Score +1 for the woke police! Dear god, people have become insufferable.

So is it cool for me to drink 3 beers then go for a drive?

I've seen you falling prey to the same logistical fallacy on the forums lately too, so I'm not surprised you chimed in. Go for it. But before you do that could you please berate guitar steve for going to the grocery store? He admitted up thread that he did it, and someone somewhere is sure to disapprove of his choices.

I'm not taking sides, I'm just trying to find out where you draw the line since it's not clear to me.  You stated there is never an excuse for drunk driving, but I'm not clear on exactly what you mean.  Does that mean zero tolerance?  Or is it up to my discretion as to whether driving is necessary at that point?

Drunk driving has a line - it is a limit clearly defined by law. If you consume three beers and are not intoxicated or impaired when you go to drive, then yes, you can do that. It has nothing to do with the purpose of the driving.

So in the absence of a coronavirus breathalyzer, where do we draw the line?  The argument appears to be "I'll do whatever I deem to be reasonable and fuck your opinion.  Masks? Fuck you.  Social distancing? Fuck you.  Not holding large gatherings? Fuck you".

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4456 on: November 03, 2020, 11:39:54 AM »
I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

An honest question -- at what point are we allowed to get our own individual assessment of risk back?

If I am fine to go out to a restaurant and I go, while you are not comfortable going out to a restaurant, so you don't, then who cares? If I get sick I get sick. I'm okay with that, as are everyone else who has attended the restaurant. Others I interact with even after the restaurant have also assumed the risk.

If you are going to go with this logic:

Your choices are certainly your own to make based upon your own tolerance.  But your own tolerance then directly impacts others.  Just as every driver is free to guzzle booze and then hit the roads, every person is free to ignore all precautions and recommendations.  But don't expect other people to be OK with it when you're endangering their lives.

Then you get to have permanent hypochondriac power over everyone else, indefinitely. When does it end? COVID will be around for awhile and other viruses will too.  Are we going to do this with every coronavirus/flu scare?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 11:45:45 AM by ReadySetMillionaire »

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4457 on: November 03, 2020, 11:42:17 AM »
So in the absence of a coronavirus breathalyzer, where do we draw the line?  The argument appears to be "I'll do whatever I deem to be reasonable and fuck your opinion.  Masks? Fuck you.  Social distancing? Fuck you.  Not holding large gatherings? Fuck you".

This is a more blunt way of saying what I'm trying to say on the pro-individualism side; importantly, however, I would also add that there's a flip side to the coin.

A more cautious person might think, "I'm going to wear a mask, socially distance, not do groups of more than four, get groceries delivered, not hold large gatherings, etc." And that is their right.

Everyone should be able to make their own risk assessment.

charis

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4458 on: November 03, 2020, 11:44:39 AM »
The line is already drawn. It's always the same.

Quote
It doesn't matter the ABV, my weight, or the time period, ultimately the only thing that matters is my blood alcohol content at the time of operating a vehicle.


All of those things matter because they directly affect BAC level.  How did you think that happened? BAC is based on individual factors and circumstances.

It can be reasonable for a large man to drink three 3.5 alc/vol beers over fours hours and drive if he isn't impaired.  He might also make the unreasonable and unsafe choice to drink three beers in one hour and have a BAC above the legal limit.  You can have a certain BAC level and legally drive, though it may not be morally right to some people because there is still some risk involved.  But their morals don't rule the day.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 11:53:42 AM by charis »

Paper Chaser

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4459 on: November 03, 2020, 11:46:34 AM »

I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

These are the behaviours I'd compare to drunk driving - the ones where you risk the lives of others out of boredom.

Wait, doesn't it take two to tango here? Nobody can spread the virus if there's not somebody to spread it to. Aren't the "others" whose lives are being risked also consenting to and accepting of that risk simply by being there? All of the playgrounds near my house have signs posted near the entrances that say something along the lines of "It's possible to contract COVID here. By choosing to enter, you're accepting that risk." Doesn't that same thinking apply to any exposure a person chooses to have? When you decide to go to church, you're accepting the risk of contracting the virus while there. If you're high risk and accepting any non-essential visitors, you're accepting that risk of contracting the virus. If you go into the grocery store rather than using delivery or curb-side pickup, you're accepting that risk. When you have a sit down meal, you're accepting that risk. The people at the bar, or church, or sporting event or taking visitors have already accepted the risk involved in those activities simply by making the choice to participate. They know what they're doing, and while they certainly hope to avoid the virus, if they were truly concerned they wouldn't be there in the first place. We're 10 months into this thing. Nobody is making risky choices without realizing what the risk is. There are very few true innocent victims here.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4460 on: November 03, 2020, 11:48:12 AM »
I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

An honest question -- at what point are we allowed to get our own individual assessment of risk back?

This power has never been taken away from you.  Currently you are free to put me (or anyone I know) at risk as often as you want, whenever you want.



If I am fine to go out to a restaurant and I go, while you are not comfortable going out to a restaurant, so you don't, then who cares? If I get sick I get sick. I'm okay with that, as are everyone else who has attended the restaurant. Others I interact with even after the restaurant have also assumed the risk.

Really?

The people in the office you work have assumed that risk?  The person walking past you in the supermarket has assumed that risk?  The cashier at the check out counter has?  The cashier's elderly mother who she lives with has?

The problem is, you can't realistically isolate your actions to only hurt yourself.  They impact everyone.  We aren't a land of rugged individuals.  We're human beings and we live in a complicated social web of dependencies on each other.



If you are going to go with this logic:

Your choices are certainly your own to make based upon your own tolerance.  But your own tolerance then directly impacts others.  Just as every driver is free to guzzle booze and then hit the roads, every person is free to ignore all precautions and recommendations.  But don't expect other people to be OK with it when you're endangering their lives.

They you get to have permanent hypochondriac power over everyone else, indefinitely. When does it end? COVID will be around for awhile and other viruses will too.  Are we going to do this with every coronavirus/flu scare?

That 'permanent hypochondriac power' as you put it gives me exactly what control over you and your life?  From what I can see, the answer is NONE.  You are free to continue to make the pandemic worse in any way you please.

No, I'm not going to stop saying that I think taking risky actions at the cost of others is bad.  Sorry, not sorry that this offends your delicate sensibilities.  I get that nobody wants to think of themselves as a person who would casually drive drunk . . . but that kind of casual indifference for the safety of others is exactly what you're doing when you're taking these risks in the midst of a pandemic for no good reason.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 11:53:08 AM by GuitarStv »

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4461 on: November 03, 2020, 11:50:40 AM »
So in the absence of a coronavirus breathalyzer, where do we draw the line?  The argument appears to be "I'll do whatever I deem to be reasonable and fuck your opinion.  Masks? Fuck you.  Social distancing? Fuck you.  Not holding large gatherings? Fuck you".

This is a more blunt way of saying what I'm trying to say on the pro-individualism side; importantly, however, I would also add that there's a flip side to the coin.

A more cautious person might think, "I'm going to wear a mask, socially distance, not do groups of more than four, get groceries delivered, not hold large gatherings, etc." And that is their right.

Everyone should be able to make their own risk assessment.

Ok the problem with this is that you aren't endangering yourself by not wearing a mask, you are endangering other people, that's the point that is being made.

So to basically flip it right back on you, if you are concerned about drunk driving, just don't drive drunk, that is your right.  I will however perform my own risk assessment and drive in whatever state I feel personally comfortable with.

ETA: And people are very bad at risk assessment.  Unbelievably bad.  You want to go swimming in shark infested water because you've done your own risk assessment? Go ahead.  You want to release a bunch of sharks (with lasers) into the public pool because you've done your own risk assessment and deemed it not risky? No thanks. 
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 12:04:44 PM by frugalnacho »

the_fixer

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4462 on: November 03, 2020, 11:58:56 AM »
[quote author=fuzzy math link=topic=114856.msg2727381#msg2727381
Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.
[/quote]

Not looking to fight / argue just looking to provide a different prospective on something you said so take it for what it is worth.

If you are working in a hospital maybe it would be less risk for the grocery store workers to pull your curbside or delivery order for you instead of you going into the store?

Personally if I were working in a grocery store I would much rather have fewer customers in the store and pull their order and drop it in their trunk.

Personally that is my thought process for groceries, it might cost me a few extra dollars but if I can provide less points of contact for the grocery store workers (and jobs) it is win win.

The same thing applies at work, if I can manage something remote and protect our employees that are critical to the functioning of society then I should do what I can to avoid exposing them.


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ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4463 on: November 03, 2020, 12:38:50 PM »
Really?

The people in the office you work have assumed that risk?  The person walking past you in the supermarket has assumed that risk?  The cashier at the check out counter has?  The cashier's elderly mother who she lives with has?

The problem is, you can't realistically isolate your actions to only hurt yourself.  They impact everyone.  We aren't a land of rugged individuals.  We're human beings and we live in a complicated social web of dependencies on each other.

Ok the problem with this is that you aren't endangering yourself by not wearing a mask, you are endangering other people, that's the point that is being made.

So to basically flip it right back on you, if you are concerned about drunk driving, just don't drive drunk, that is your right.  I will however perform my own risk assessment and drive in whatever state I feel personally comfortable with.

ETA: And people are very bad at risk assessment.  Unbelievably bad.  You want to go swimming in shark infested water because you've done your own risk assessment? Go ahead.  You want to release a bunch of sharks (with lasers) into the public pool because you've done your own risk assessment and deemed it not risky? No thanks. 

Both of these posts are nice summaries as to why most COVID precautions to "slow the spread" are exponentially more detrimental to poor people than privileged people. They get to do zero risk assessment whatsoever while they stock your shelves and bag your groceries.

This was the biggest argument against lockdowns and other less stringent isolation measures prior to COVID.

Look at this 108 page CDC document from 2007 -- https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/11425

It thoroughly discusses the pros and cons of various policies, from masks to social distancing to closing schools to home isolation. Unfortunately, discussing the "cons" has somehow become aligned with "TRUMP" because, well, who knows.

Read it for yourself, but COVID is quite clearly a "Category 2" Pandemic. We are implementing Category 5 protocols, and all of you guys are using Category 5 logic. Why?

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4464 on: November 03, 2020, 01:00:53 PM »
If you want to go out to eat at a sit down restaurant, then do it. But you're doing it because you want to and you're over it. That's it. There is no grander story to tell about the inevitability of the virus or the futility of precautions. You just want to go to Applebees. That's fine.

Nothing is a better signal of someone not getting it than comparing someone else's life to "wanting to go to Applebee's." It is a dead give-away that this person is extremely privileged and pretends to have empathy, but actually doesn't.

TBH I think I made pretty good attempt to understand your personal situation. I know this is hard on everyone and I encourage everyone to explore all options if their mental health is really suffering. Said that about a thousand times at this point. Somewhere along the way you started parroting antivaxxers. That was a pretty big indicator that you're emotionally leveraged over this. Not indulging that any further says nothing about my empathy.

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4465 on: November 03, 2020, 01:04:23 PM »


ETA: And people are very bad at risk assessment.  Unbelievably bad. 

And MANY people are  all too good at wishful thinking which doesn't conduce to controlling the pandemic.

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4466 on: November 03, 2020, 01:05:30 PM »
Advocating for people to take this seriously so that we can save lives, keep admissions down, and use the tools available to us (stimulus, borrowing in a ZIRP) to alleviate the suffering has been my entire life for the past 6 months. I'm allowing myself to make an Applebee's joke from time to time.

dandarc

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4467 on: November 03, 2020, 01:09:20 PM »
RSM is on my ignore list, which means they've engaged in trolling / dishonesty (lying about what is in that CDC document you just linked, for example) often enough that I decided I should warn myself about that before reading their posts.

So, I'm just going to assume RSM really does just want to go to Applebee's, and is offended by the suggestion because they know how terrible the food is there. RSM, like any reasonable human being over the age of 12 should not want to got Applebee's. Ever. Pandemic or not. But deep down, that's all RSM really wants, and admitting that openly is a bridge too far right now.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4468 on: November 03, 2020, 01:12:07 PM »
Advocating for people to take this seriously so that we can save lives, keep admissions down, and use the tools available to us (stimulus, borrowing in a ZIRP) to alleviate the suffering has been my entire life for the past 6 months. I'm allowing myself to make an Applebee's joke from time to time.

You are a microcosm of the government's response in that your single-minded focus has blinded you from the secondhand consequences.

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4469 on: November 03, 2020, 01:22:27 PM »
Advocating for people to take this seriously so that we can save lives, keep admissions down, and use the tools available to us (stimulus, borrowing in a ZIRP) to alleviate the suffering has been my entire life for the past 6 months. I'm allowing myself to make an Applebee's joke from time to time.

You are a microcosm of the government's response in that your single-minded focus has blinded you from the secondhand consequences.

I vehemently disagree with this of course. I've discussed opening up schools because remote learning seems to be causing problems. In the post you quoted, I talked about stimulus and low interest government borrowing to handle other secondhand consequences.

But anyway, that's neither here nor there. If my joke upset you then I'm sorry. That's not want I want to do here. As I said, I've been working on this issue for 6 months in a professional capacity and I just want everyone to price in the risk properly.

To put the Applebee's joke in a kinder sense; if you want to get back to normal, then that's your choice. But just do it because you want to do it. Don't start digging around for wackos who will justify it for you. Please. That's all I ask. I hope you get your life back more to "normal" over the coming months and I hope it helps your mental health. Sincerely.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4470 on: November 03, 2020, 01:29:07 PM »
Really?

The people in the office you work have assumed that risk?  The person walking past you in the supermarket has assumed that risk?  The cashier at the check out counter has?  The cashier's elderly mother who she lives with has?

The problem is, you can't realistically isolate your actions to only hurt yourself.  They impact everyone.  We aren't a land of rugged individuals.  We're human beings and we live in a complicated social web of dependencies on each other.

Ok the problem with this is that you aren't endangering yourself by not wearing a mask, you are endangering other people, that's the point that is being made.

So to basically flip it right back on you, if you are concerned about drunk driving, just don't drive drunk, that is your right.  I will however perform my own risk assessment and drive in whatever state I feel personally comfortable with.

ETA: And people are very bad at risk assessment.  Unbelievably bad.  You want to go swimming in shark infested water because you've done your own risk assessment? Go ahead.  You want to release a bunch of sharks (with lasers) into the public pool because you've done your own risk assessment and deemed it not risky? No thanks. 

Both of these posts are nice summaries as to why most COVID precautions to "slow the spread" are exponentially more detrimental to poor people than privileged people. They get to do zero risk assessment whatsoever while they stock your shelves and bag your groceries.


I don't understand what point you're making here at all.


You were just arguing that people MUST BE free to ignore the advice of health professionals so they can do anything they please at any time they please to.  Now you're telling me that we need to be concerned about poor people because they are at greater risk . . . since they have to deal with people who are ignoring the advice of health professionals?  And that somehow increasing the number of people who are ignoring health care professionals is good

I don't want a hard lock down.  Obviously, that's not sustainable.  People need to work and they need to get groceries.  But they don't need to dine out at a restaurant.  They don't need to go to a movie theater or a baseball game.  They don't need to go to a large church gathering.  These things are very high risk for little to no gain.



Look at this 108 page CDC document from 2007 -- https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/11425

It thoroughly discusses the pros and cons of various policies, from masks to social distancing to closing schools to home isolation. Unfortunately, discussing the "cons" has somehow become aligned with "TRUMP" because, well, who knows.

Read it for yourself, but COVID is quite clearly a "Category 2" Pandemic. We are implementing Category 5 protocols, and all of you guys are using Category 5 logic. Why?

You're putting faith in a document written in 2007 (that has been superseded by this document: https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/45220 which doesn't include the same classifications or recommendations) that was written about Influenza (not covid-19).  Can you explain exactly how this document is applicable to our current scenario?

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4471 on: November 03, 2020, 01:31:30 PM »
RSM is on my ignore list, which means they've engaged in trolling / dishonesty (lying about what is in that CDC document you just linked, for example) often enough that I decided I should warn myself about that before reading their posts.

So, I'm just going to assume RSM really does just want to go to Applebee's, and is offended by the suggestion because they know how terrible the food is there. RSM, like any reasonable human being over the age of 12 should not want to got Applebee's. Ever. Pandemic or not. But deep down, that's all RSM really wants, and admitting that openly is a bridge too far right now.

Typical political discourse these days.

Go ahead and read the document I linked. Most of the terms will be familiar to readers by now. It will take two minutes of reading to see that COVID is Category 2. And for that, CDC recommended:

- School closures, but for no more than 4 weeks due to the incredible hardship on kids and parents

- Surveys showed the public would be willing to cooperate with home isolation measures for one month

- A majority of workers advised they could only miss 7-10 days of work without having "serious financial problems"

- That prolonged workplace absenteeism could "limit the availability of essential goods and services" and "potentially threaten the ability to sustain critical infrastructure"

It goes on. In a way it foreshadowed much of the debate as it exists now.

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4472 on: November 03, 2020, 01:35:43 PM »
Really?

The people in the office you work have assumed that risk?  The person walking past you in the supermarket has assumed that risk?  The cashier at the check out counter has?  The cashier's elderly mother who she lives with has?

The problem is, you can't realistically isolate your actions to only hurt yourself.  They impact everyone.  We aren't a land of rugged individuals.  We're human beings and we live in a complicated social web of dependencies on each other.

Ok the problem with this is that you aren't endangering yourself by not wearing a mask, you are endangering other people, that's the point that is being made.

So to basically flip it right back on you, if you are concerned about drunk driving, just don't drive drunk, that is your right.  I will however perform my own risk assessment and drive in whatever state I feel personally comfortable with.

ETA: And people are very bad at risk assessment.  Unbelievably bad.  You want to go swimming in shark infested water because you've done your own risk assessment? Go ahead.  You want to release a bunch of sharks (with lasers) into the public pool because you've done your own risk assessment and deemed it not risky? No thanks. 

Both of these posts are nice summaries as to why most COVID precautions to "slow the spread" are exponentially more detrimental to poor people than privileged people. They get to do zero risk assessment whatsoever while they stock your shelves and bag your groceries.

This was the biggest argument against lockdowns and other less stringent isolation measures prior to COVID.

Look at this 108 page CDC document from 2007 -- https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/11425

It thoroughly discusses the pros and cons of various policies, from masks to social distancing to closing schools to home isolation. Unfortunately, discussing the "cons" has somehow become aligned with "TRUMP" because, well, who knows.

Read it for yourself, but COVID is quite clearly a "Category 2" Pandemic. We are implementing Category 5 protocols, and all of you guys are using Category 5 logic. Why?

I don't have time to read a 108 page document (or the revised 36 page document) fully and respond, so I have just a few comments.

That document was updated in 2017, so we should be using the updated version.  https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/45220

Yes "somehow" it became aligned with "TRUMP" because who knows?  I mean besides every single person that watched him downplay the pandemic at every opportunity, calling it a hoax, claiming it will miraculously just disappear multiple times with no evidence, stressing that the CDC recommendation to wear a mask was voluntary and he would not be wearing a mask, and also making fun of people that wear masks.  Complete mystery as to how wearing a mask was politicized and Trump became associated with anti-mask. 

How is this clearly a category 2 pandemic?  That chart says "Assumes 30% Illness Rate and Unmitigated Pandemic Without Interventions". (and this system doesn't even appear to be in the revised document)
237k+ deaths, 9.6M+ cases - https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
237k/9.6M =~ 2.5% CFR, right?  And that's with severe mitigation.  I mean we're on page 90 of this thread whose entire purpose is people bitching about the mitigation strategies and how much freedom it's taking from them.  The original estimate from imperial college was 2.2M deaths in the USA if no mitigation was taken.   
This seems like a pretty severe pandemic to me, and it's not over.

Also the same organization you are linking to is currently recommending mask usage.  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html


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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4473 on: November 03, 2020, 01:38:51 PM »
Advocating for people to take this seriously so that we can save lives, keep admissions down, and use the tools available to us (stimulus, borrowing in a ZIRP) to alleviate the suffering has been my entire life for the past 6 months. I'm allowing myself to make an Applebee's joke from time to time.

You are a microcosm of the government's response in that your single-minded focus has blinded you from the secondhand consequences.

I've been reading mathlete's comments since the beginning of all this and they've been more open minded than most and have definitely been sympathetic to the second hand consequences of measures to slow the spread. Recently, specific to your personal situation, they've acknowledged the importance of taking mental health into account when making decisions.

Again and again I've seen those who argue against containment measures say that anyone who disagrees with them must not be taking secondhand consequences into account. Or maybe they have, and still managed to reach a different conclusion than you?

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4474 on: November 03, 2020, 01:51:52 PM »
You're putting faith in a document written in 2007 (that has been superseded by this document: https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/45220 which doesn't include the same classifications or recommendations) that was written about Influenza (not covid-19).  Can you explain exactly how this document is applicable to our current scenario?

Okay, we will use your document.

On masks:

Quote
Face masks (disposable surgical, medical, or dental procedure masks)  are  widely  used  by  health  care  workers  to  prevent  respiratory infections both in health care workers and patients. They  also  might  be  worn  by  ill  persons  during  severe,  very  severe, or extreme pandemics to prevent spread of influenza to household members and others in the community. However, little evidence supports the use of face masks by well persons in community settings, although some trials conducted during the 2009 H1N1 pandemic found that early combined use of face masks and other NPIs (such as hand hygiene) might be effective

Face mask use by well persons is not routinely needed in most situations to prevent acquiring the influenza virus. However, use of face masks by well persons might be beneficial in certain situations (e.g., when persons at high risk for influenza complications cannot avoid crowded settings or parents are caring for ill children at home). Face mask use by well persons also might reduce self-inoculation (e.g.,  touching  the  nose  with  the  hand  after  touching  a  contaminated surface)

***


CDC does not routinely recommend the use of face masks by well persons in the home or other community settings  as  a  means  of  avoiding  infection  during  influenza  pandemics  except under special, high-risk circumstances (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/infectioncontrol/maskguidance.htm). For example, during a severe pandemic, pregnant women and other persons at high risk for influenza complications might use face masks if unable to avoid crowded settings, especially if no pandemic vaccine is available. In addition, persons caring for ill family members at home (e.g., a parent of a child exhibiting influenza  symptoms)  might  use  face  masks  to  avoid  infection  when  in  close contact with a patient, just as health care personnel wear masks in health care settings.

On school closures:

Quote
Preemptive, coordinated school closures and dismissals might be implemented at child care facilities, K12 schools, and institutions of higher education. They are most likely to be implemented when an influenza pandemic is  severe,  very  severe,  or  extreme  (Table  10).  Secondary  consequences  include  missed  work  and  loss  of  income  for  parents who stay home from work to care for their children and  missed  opportunities  to  vaccinate  school-aged  children  rapidly unless other mechanisms are considered.

On Voluntary Home Quarantine:

Quote
CDC might recommend voluntary home quarantine  of  exposed  household  members  as  a  personal  protective  measure  during  severe,  very  severe,  or  extreme  influenza  pandemics  in  combination with other personal protective measures such as respiratory etiquette and hand hygiene. If a member of the household is symptomatic with confirmed or probable pandemic influenza, then all members of the household  should  stay  home  for  up  to  3  days  (the  estimated  incubation  period for seasonal influenza), starting from their initial contact with the ill person, to monitor for influenza symptoms.

On social distancing:

Quote
Even  though  the  evidence  base  for  the  effectiveness of some of these measures is limited, CDC might recommend the  simultaneous  use  of  multiple  social  distancing  measures  to  help  reduce  the  spread  of  influenza  in  community  settings  (e.g.,  schools,  workplaces, and mass gatherings) during severe, very severe, or extreme influenza pandemics while minimizing the secondary consequences of the measures. Social distancing measures include the following:

Increasing the distance to at least 3 feet (98) between persons when possible might reduce person-to person transmission.

This applies to apparently healthy persons without symptoms. In the event of a very  severe  or  extreme  pandemic,  this  recommended  minimal  distance between people might be increased.

Persons in community settings who show symptoms consistent with influenza  and  who  might  be  infected  with  (probable)  pandemic  influenza should be separated from well persons as soon as practical, be sent home, and practice voluntary home isolation.

[Note that complete closures of industries is not even discussed].

Forgive me for being so incredibly distrustful of current policy when we have already thrown the science completely out the door.

Davnasty

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4475 on: November 03, 2020, 02:02:14 PM »
Taking new research and information into account that we didn't have 3 years ago when that document was written and this virus didn't exist = throwing the science out the door? Interesting thought.

Accepting new evidence regardless of how it impacts previous conclusions is at the core of scientific advancement.

With every post you make you're making it more clear that you've made your conclusions and you're seeking out information to support those conclusions rather than trying to actually have a productive conversation.


GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4476 on: November 03, 2020, 02:04:30 PM »
You're putting faith in a document written in 2007 (that has been superseded by this document: https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/45220 which doesn't include the same classifications or recommendations) that was written about Influenza (not covid-19).  Can you explain exactly how this document is applicable to our current scenario?

Okay, we will use your document.

On masks:

Quote
Face masks (disposable surgical, medical, or dental procedure masks)  are  widely  used  by  health  care  workers  to  prevent  respiratory infections both in health care workers and patients. They  also  might  be  worn  by  ill  persons  during  severe,  very  severe, or extreme pandemics to prevent spread of influenza to household members and others in the community. However, little evidence supports the use of face masks by well persons in community settings, although some trials conducted during the 2009 H1N1 pandemic found that early combined use of face masks and other NPIs (such as hand hygiene) might be effective

Face mask use by well persons is not routinely needed in most situations to prevent acquiring the influenza virus. However, use of face masks by well persons might be beneficial in certain situations (e.g., when persons at high risk for influenza complications cannot avoid crowded settings or parents are caring for ill children at home). Face mask use by well persons also might reduce self-inoculation (e.g.,  touching  the  nose  with  the  hand  after  touching  a  contaminated surface)

***


CDC does not routinely recommend the use of face masks by well persons in the home or other community settings  as  a  means  of  avoiding  infection  during  influenza  pandemics  except under special, high-risk circumstances (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/infectioncontrol/maskguidance.htm). For example, during a severe pandemic, pregnant women and other persons at high risk for influenza complications might use face masks if unable to avoid crowded settings, especially if no pandemic vaccine is available. In addition, persons caring for ill family members at home (e.g., a parent of a child exhibiting influenza  symptoms)  might  use  face  masks  to  avoid  infection  when  in  close contact with a patient, just as health care personnel wear masks in health care settings.

On school closures:

Quote
Preemptive, coordinated school closures and dismissals might be implemented at child care facilities, K12 schools, and institutions of higher education. They are most likely to be implemented when an influenza pandemic is  severe,  very  severe,  or  extreme  (Table  10).  Secondary  consequences  include  missed  work  and  loss  of  income  for  parents who stay home from work to care for their children and  missed  opportunities  to  vaccinate  school-aged  children  rapidly unless other mechanisms are considered.

On Voluntary Home Quarantine:

Quote
CDC might recommend voluntary home quarantine  of  exposed  household  members  as  a  personal  protective  measure  during  severe,  very  severe,  or  extreme  influenza  pandemics  in  combination with other personal protective measures such as respiratory etiquette and hand hygiene. If a member of the household is symptomatic with confirmed or probable pandemic influenza, then all members of the household  should  stay  home  for  up  to  3  days  (the  estimated  incubation  period for seasonal influenza), starting from their initial contact with the ill person, to monitor for influenza symptoms.

On social distancing:

Quote
Even  though  the  evidence  base  for  the  effectiveness of some of these measures is limited, CDC might recommend the  simultaneous  use  of  multiple  social  distancing  measures  to  help  reduce  the  spread  of  influenza  in  community  settings  (e.g.,  schools,  workplaces, and mass gatherings) during severe, very severe, or extreme influenza pandemics while minimizing the secondary consequences of the measures. Social distancing measures include the following:

Increasing the distance to at least 3 feet (98) between persons when possible might reduce person-to person transmission.

This applies to apparently healthy persons without symptoms. In the event of a very  severe  or  extreme  pandemic,  this  recommended  minimal  distance between people might be increased.

Persons in community settings who show symptoms consistent with influenza  and  who  might  be  infected  with  (probable)  pandemic  influenza should be separated from well persons as soon as practical, be sent home, and practice voluntary home isolation.

[Note that complete closures of industries is not even discussed].

Forgive me for being so incredibly distrustful of current policy when we have already thrown the science completely out the door.

That's not my document.  It's an update of the CDC document that you provided about measures to prevent potential influenza spread.

Again, why do you believe that it's applicable to coronavirus?

It certainly doesn't seem to be very applicable . . . the CDC wrote that there was little point in wearing masks for the theoretical influenza spread but is currently saying that there is good reason to wear masks for the coronavirus spread.  Why do you believe the CDC of the past over the current CDC?  This is bizarre.

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4477 on: November 03, 2020, 02:12:18 PM »
You're putting faith in a document written in 2007 (that has been superseded by this document: https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/45220 which doesn't include the same classifications or recommendations) that was written about Influenza (not covid-19).  Can you explain exactly how this document is applicable to our current scenario?

Okay, we will use your document.

On masks:

Quote
Face masks (disposable surgical, medical, or dental procedure masks)  are  widely  used  by  health  care  workers  to  prevent  respiratory infections both in health care workers and patients. They  also  might  be  worn  by  ill  persons  during  severe,  very  severe, or extreme pandemics to prevent spread of influenza to household members and others in the community. However, little evidence supports the use of face masks by well persons in community settings, although some trials conducted during the 2009 H1N1 pandemic found that early combined use of face masks and other NPIs (such as hand hygiene) might be effective

Face mask use by well persons is not routinely needed in most situations to prevent acquiring the influenza virus. However, use of face masks by well persons might be beneficial in certain situations (e.g., when persons at high risk for influenza complications cannot avoid crowded settings or parents are caring for ill children at home). Face mask use by well persons also might reduce self-inoculation (e.g.,  touching  the  nose  with  the  hand  after  touching  a  contaminated surface)

***


CDC does not routinely recommend the use of face masks by well persons in the home or other community settings  as  a  means  of  avoiding  infection  during  influenza  pandemics  except under special, high-risk circumstances (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/infectioncontrol/maskguidance.htm). For example, during a severe pandemic, pregnant women and other persons at high risk for influenza complications might use face masks if unable to avoid crowded settings, especially if no pandemic vaccine is available. In addition, persons caring for ill family members at home (e.g., a parent of a child exhibiting influenza  symptoms)  might  use  face  masks  to  avoid  infection  when  in  close contact with a patient, just as health care personnel wear masks in health care settings.

Dude.  The CDC is recommending mask usage RIGHT NOW for THIS VIRUS.  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html

That document is old, and was intended for influenza.  We have new evidence that says wearing a mask slows the spread of coronavirus.  If you trust the CDC so goddamn much then wear a mask and encourage others to do the same, just like the CDC is doing. 

« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 02:14:02 PM by frugalnacho »

fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4478 on: November 03, 2020, 02:14:20 PM »
Quote from: fuzzy math link=topic=114856.msg2727381#msg2727381
Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

Not looking to fight / argue just looking to provide a different prospective on something you said so take it for what it is worth.

If you are working in a hospital maybe it would be less risk for the grocery store workers to pull your curbside or delivery order for you instead of you going into the store?

Personally if I were working in a grocery store I would much rather have fewer customers in the store and pull their order and drop it in their trunk.

Personally that is my thought process for groceries, it might cost me a few extra dollars but if I can provide less points of contact for the grocery store workers (and jobs) it is win win.

The same thing applies at work, if I can manage something remote and protect our employees that are critical to the functioning of society then I should do what I can to avoid exposing them.


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Nope. Not going to pay a premium, and if its too unsafe for me to go to the grocery store because I could be infectious then its too unsafe for me to save people's lives because I could be infectious. This is the point where it becomes ridiculous, when people surmise what others should and shouldn't be doing in the name of safety.

Another set of friends on facebook (both nurses in elderly care homes) in Canada, posted a video of some politician in Manitoba begging people not to do Halloweeen celebrations or other social things, then privately disclosed to me that they're having 2 people over for a casual election night watch party. These 2 individuals have been exceedingly harsh on people going out... but in their own private homes they do what they wish (probably because they assume they're taking precautions or trust the people). They are probably blind to the hypocrisy of their own actions, and think they're good woke citizens.

Its the same for everyone. And we all have that freedom of choice. There are truly a small fraction of us who haven't done something that another would look down upon, mostly because the media fills our brains with stupid shit about risks when you walk into a store where someone might have been 15 mins ago or walking along a trail outside alone.  Look, I haven't posted about a single social thing that I've done, but you thought you should help me out to reduce risk by telling me I shouldn't go to the grocery store. I'm not offended that you did, I'm just trying to highlight that maybe you're too invested in all this? My own employer says since I'm essential that I have to come to work even if I'm quarantined, or test positive I have to come to work as soon as my symptoms subside. So please, don't pretend that you or other lay people sitting around stressing out about theoretical actions of others is going to make a difference.

THIS IS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES TO THE EXTENT THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH. Stay at home and bleach wipe your produce that's delivered after you've let it sit outside untouched for 8 hours? Have at it! Go to work and earn a living for your family? Have at it! There are always haters that are gonna hate.

fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4479 on: November 03, 2020, 02:17:48 PM »

To put the Applebee's joke in a kinder sense;

Jokes about people choosing to consume Applebees food are never appropriate, they might be more inappropriate than the food itself from Applebees.

bigblock440

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4480 on: November 03, 2020, 02:18:17 PM »
snip

Read it for yourself, but COVID is quite clearly a "Category 2" Pandemic. We are implementing Category 5 protocols, and all of you guys are using Category 5 logic. Why?

Authoritarian tendencies. 

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4481 on: November 03, 2020, 02:19:18 PM »
THIS IS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES TO THE EXTENT THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH. Stay at home and bleach wipe your produce that's delivered after you've let it sit outside untouched for 8 hours? Have at it! Go to work and earn a living for your family? Have at it! There are always haters that are gonna hate.

Exactly! I feel perfectly comfortable driving home drunk from the bar, so fuck right off and stop telling me what to do! It's MY choice!

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4482 on: November 03, 2020, 02:20:09 PM »

To put the Applebee's joke in a kinder sense;

Jokes about people choosing to consume Applebees food are never appropriate, they might be more inappropriate than the food itself from Applebees.

I would never wish Applebees on anyone.  No one deserves that.

mizzourah2006

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4483 on: November 03, 2020, 02:27:55 PM »
THIS IS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES TO THE EXTENT THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH. Stay at home and bleach wipe your produce that's delivered after you've let it sit outside untouched for 8 hours? Have at it! Go to work and earn a living for your family? Have at it! There are always haters that are gonna hate.

Exactly! I feel perfectly comfortable driving home drunk from the bar, so fuck right off and stop telling me what to do! It's MY choice!

It is...and hopefully you end up in jail with a suspended license and a nice fine :)

If going to restaurants was illegal and people were still doing it I'd feel the same way.

fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4484 on: November 03, 2020, 02:30:42 PM »
THIS IS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES TO THE EXTENT THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH. Stay at home and bleach wipe your produce that's delivered after you've let it sit outside untouched for 8 hours? Have at it! Go to work and earn a living for your family? Have at it! There are always haters that are gonna hate.

Exactly! I feel perfectly comfortable driving home drunk from the bar, so fuck right off and stop telling me what to do! It's MY choice!

Please keep a tally of how many minds you've changed and lives you've saved with your internet quarterbacking.

charis

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4485 on: November 03, 2020, 02:33:25 PM »
THIS IS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES TO THE EXTENT THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH. Stay at home and bleach wipe your produce that's delivered after you've let it sit outside untouched for 8 hours? Have at it! Go to work and earn a living for your family? Have at it! There are always haters that are gonna hate.

Exactly! I feel perfectly comfortable driving home drunk from the bar, so fuck right off and stop telling me what to do! It's MY choice!

Sure and please F off and stop telling me I can't murder anyone tonight. It's my choice.

Can someone else explain this false equivalency?

the_fixer

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4486 on: November 03, 2020, 02:44:33 PM »
Quote from: fuzzy math link=topic=114856.msg2727381#msg2727381
Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

Not looking to fight / argue just looking to provide a different prospective on something you said so take it for what it is worth.

If you are working in a hospital maybe it would be less risk for the grocery store workers to pull your curbside or delivery order for you instead of you going into the store?

Personally if I were working in a grocery store I would much rather have fewer customers in the store and pull their order and drop it in their trunk.

Personally that is my thought process for groceries, it might cost me a few extra dollars but if I can provide less points of contact for the grocery store workers (and jobs) it is win win.

The same thing applies at work, if I can manage something remote and protect our employees that are critical to the functioning of society then I should do what I can to avoid exposing them.


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Nope. Not going to pay a premium, and if its too unsafe for me to go to the grocery store because I could be infectious then its too unsafe for me to save people's lives because I could be infectious. This is the point where it becomes ridiculous, when people surmise what others should and shouldn't be doing in the name of safety.

Another set of friends on facebook (both nurses in elderly care homes) in Canada, posted a video of some politician in Manitoba begging people not to do Halloweeen celebrations or other social things, then privately disclosed to me that they're having 2 people over for a casual election night watch party. These 2 individuals have been exceedingly harsh on people going out... but in their own private homes they do what they wish (probably because they assume they're taking precautions or trust the people). They are probably blind to the hypocrisy of their own actions, and think they're good woke citizens.

Its the same for everyone. And we all have that freedom of choice. There are truly a small fraction of us who haven't done something that another would look down upon, mostly because the media fills our brains with stupid shit about risks when you walk into a store where someone might have been 15 mins ago or walking along a trail outside alone.  Look, I haven't posted about a single social thing that I've done, but you thought you should help me out to reduce risk by telling me I shouldn't go to the grocery store. I'm not offended that you did, I'm just trying to highlight that maybe you're too invested in all this? My own employer says since I'm essential that I have to come to work even if I'm quarantined, or test positive I have to come to work as soon as my symptoms subside. So please, don't pretend that you or other lay people sitting around stressing out about theoretical actions of others is going to make a difference.

THIS IS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES TO THE EXTENT THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH. Stay at home and bleach wipe your produce that's delivered after you've let it sit outside untouched for 8 hours? Have at it! Go to work and earn a living for your family? Have at it! There are always haters that are gonna hate.
No need to be rude, I was being civil and providing an alternate idea.

You said that you would be asking a lower paid employee to accept that risk for you by not doing the grocery shopping yourself.

I was simply in a nice civil manner pointing out that by doing curbside or delivery that the employee at the grocery store ( bar, restaurant or whatever you want) might be safer due to less contact.

Normally I would renew my license plates in person and do a lot of things in person, this year I did them online not because I was afraid to go in but to try and be a decent person and reduce the chance of transmission not only for the general population but the front line healthcare workers that are critical like yourself.


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MoseyingAlong

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4487 on: November 03, 2020, 02:47:59 PM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Could also be the folks who are getting on with living their lives don't speak up on threads like this or the "Covid Holiday Guilt" threads and such because they don't feel like being berated and called Trumpers and what not.

Yep.

It's not like people in this forum (or the internet in general) are willing to have an respectful discussion with people that come to different conclusions.

I've concluded that the risks of driving drunk are worth the potential benefits for me.  Let's have a respectful discussion about my choices.

^ For example

Oh, you're unwilling to have a respectful conversation with someone who has come to different conclusions?

Huh.

It's almost like you feel that it's unreasonable to recklessly endanger others.  How disrespectful.  I just don't feel like being berated any more - why can't I simply drive drunk in peace?  Guess I'll lament that there aren't many places on the internet I can go to joke and talk about my drunk driving conclusions with a more supportive group of people.

You're drawing a false dichotomy in which there is no middle ground. It proves my point that you believe even a slight variance from your idea is the equivalent of drunk driving.

I think a better comparison would be driving while tired.
The messaging around driving while impaired has been so strong and so clear (rightly so) that it's off the table.

But driving while tired? A LOT of people still do that on a regular basis, putting themselves and everyone else on the road at increased risk. It is a clear and well-documented risk but people still drive while tired to get home after a long work shift, to pick up kids, to make it to a vacation destination. I'm sure we can all come up with many scenarios where people we know (maybe ourselves) have driven while very tired.

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4488 on: November 03, 2020, 02:52:17 PM »
THIS IS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES TO THE EXTENT THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH. Stay at home and bleach wipe your produce that's delivered after you've let it sit outside untouched for 8 hours? Have at it! Go to work and earn a living for your family? Have at it! There are always haters that are gonna hate.

Exactly! I feel perfectly comfortable driving home drunk from the bar, so fuck right off and stop telling me what to do! It's MY choice!

Sure and please F off and stop telling me I can't murder anyone tonight. It's my choice.

Can someone else explain this false equivalency?

Why don't you explain it?

Or explain why I can't drive drunk.  What exactly gives the government the right to say I'm not allowed to drive under the influence of alcohol?

fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4489 on: November 03, 2020, 02:53:31 PM »

You said that you would be asking a lower paid employee to accept that risk for you by not doing the grocery shopping yourself.


My original comment was about ignoring that aspect of grocery delivery. It was referencing those who claim to be doing everything right by getting delivery or curbside pick up, but conveniently forget that their safety and isolation are predicated upon the work of lower paid people to keep those functions possible.

fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4490 on: November 03, 2020, 02:58:09 PM »
THIS IS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES TO THE EXTENT THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH. Stay at home and bleach wipe your produce that's delivered after you've let it sit outside untouched for 8 hours? Have at it! Go to work and earn a living for your family? Have at it! There are always haters that are gonna hate.

Exactly! I feel perfectly comfortable driving home drunk from the bar, so fuck right off and stop telling me what to do! It's MY choice!

Sure and please F off and stop telling me I can't murder anyone tonight. It's my choice.

Can someone else explain this false equivalency?

Why don't you explain it?

Or explain why I can't drive drunk.  What exactly gives the government the right to say I'm not allowed to drive under the influence of alcohol?

Drunk = a verifiable state. The driver in that case is guilty. There's intent that comes with that decision.

The equivalent here is not a person out in society just doing "anything Frugal Nacho disapproves of".  The equivalent would be a sick person coughing in someone's face, or on food at a grocery store. People have been charged with crimes for doing that sort of thing.

You seem to think every person is guilty of something for merely existing. Its a good thing you aren't making laws right now.

Another point is that the govt absolutely does have the right to make laws. You're arguing in bad faith if you think that anyone here is saying the govt doesn't have the right to make laws.

My local govt does not currently have a stay at home order. They do have a curfew at restaurants and bars. They also have a gathering limit and a masking ordinance. The police are free to act in accordance when they see someone disobeying those laws. They do not have a right to walk up to someone at Walmart and arrest them for buying magazines just because they personally disagree with the purchase of magazines. Laws exist for a reason, so people know what is allowed and not allowed.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 03:05:47 PM by fuzzy math »

Davnasty

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4491 on: November 03, 2020, 03:05:38 PM »

You said that you would be asking a lower paid employee to accept that risk for you by not doing the grocery shopping yourself.

I was simply in a nice civil manner pointing out that by doing curbside or delivery that the employee at the grocery store ( bar, restaurant or whatever you want) might be safer due to less contact.

Normally I would renew my license plates in person and do a lot of things in person, this year I did them online not because I was afraid to go in but to try and be a decent person and reduce the chance of transmission not only for the general population but the front line healthcare workers that are critical like yourself.


Just want to second this. I've seen the accusation that privileged people who can work from home and pay more for contact-less services are oblivious to what service workers are going through, but the purpose of reducing contact is just as much (if not more so) for the benefit of service workers as it is for the privileged people who have the option to reduce contact.

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4492 on: November 03, 2020, 03:18:03 PM »
THIS IS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES TO THE EXTENT THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH. Stay at home and bleach wipe your produce that's delivered after you've let it sit outside untouched for 8 hours? Have at it! Go to work and earn a living for your family? Have at it! There are always haters that are gonna hate.

Exactly! I feel perfectly comfortable driving home drunk from the bar, so fuck right off and stop telling me what to do! It's MY choice!

Sure and please F off and stop telling me I can't murder anyone tonight. It's my choice.

Can someone else explain this false equivalency?

Why don't you explain it?

Or explain why I can't drive drunk.  What exactly gives the government the right to say I'm not allowed to drive under the influence of alcohol?

Drunk = a verifiable state. The driver in that case is guilty. There's intent that comes with that decision.

The equivalent here is not a person out in society just doing "anything Frugal Nacho disapproves of".  The equivalent would be a sick person coughing in someone's face, or on food at a grocery store. People have been charged with crimes for doing that sort of thing.

You seem to think every person is guilty of something for merely existing. Its a good thing you aren't making laws right now.

Today I learned that drunk drivers have intent to kill people.  The more you know. 

You know there is asymptomatic spread, and you know that people can die from this disease.  You saying "I feel fine, I'm unlikely to infect someone with coronavirus" doesn't absolve you.  You don't get to say "Meh, I think it's low risk that I'm infected and spreading this deadly disease".   We know it's not true.  We know there is asymptomatic spread.  If no one wears a mask in public infection rates increase, AND PEOPLE DIE.  You could literally make a mountain out of all the dead bodies. 

I would argue that not taking basic precautions like wearing a mask inside a grocery store has the exact same intent as deciding to drive drunk. It carries a risk, and it's disproportionately going to affect other people, completely against their will.  Saying "it's MY choice (to endanger your life)!" in either scenario makes you a selfish asshole.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4493 on: November 03, 2020, 03:34:48 PM »
THIS IS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES TO THE EXTENT THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH. Stay at home and bleach wipe your produce that's delivered after you've let it sit outside untouched for 8 hours? Have at it! Go to work and earn a living for your family? Have at it! There are always haters that are gonna hate.

Exactly! I feel perfectly comfortable driving home drunk from the bar, so fuck right off and stop telling me what to do! It's MY choice!

Sure and please F off and stop telling me I can't murder anyone tonight. It's my choice.

Can someone else explain this false equivalency?

Why don't you explain it?

Or explain why I can't drive drunk.  What exactly gives the government the right to say I'm not allowed to drive under the influence of alcohol?

Drunk = a verifiable state. The driver in that case is guilty. There's intent that comes with that decision.

Drunk is a verifiable state.  But if a 200 lb guy three or four pints over a couple hours, is he drunk?  Hmm.  Tough to say.  Certainly a guy at a bar has no idea.  Is there intent to kill someone else?  Probably not.  He has to guess based on what he thinks drunk feels like since breathalyzers are not standard bar equipment.  And he might guess wrong.

Having covid is a verifiable state.  Certainly the average person going about their day has no idea.  Is there intent to kill someone else if you fail to socially distance/wear a mask/go to parties/go to restaurants?  Probably not.  He has to guess if he has covid since often there are no symptoms and testing is not available any time someone needs it.  And he might guess wrong.

We typically hold drunk drivers responsible for their reckless actions these days.  This only happened after years of fighting people who didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing.  We don't currently hold people with covid responsible for their actions.  Currently there is lots of push back from people who don't see anything wrong with what they are doing.

fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4494 on: November 03, 2020, 03:35:42 PM »

Today I learned that drunk drivers have intent to kill people.  The more you know. 

You know there is asymptomatic spread, and you know that people can die from this disease.  You saying "I feel fine, I'm unlikely to infect someone with coronavirus" doesn't absolve you.  You don't get to say "Meh, I think it's low risk that I'm infected and spreading this deadly disease".   We know it's not true.  We know there is asymptomatic spread.  If no one wears a mask in public infection rates increase, AND PEOPLE DIE.  You could literally make a mountain out of all the dead bodies. 

I would argue that not taking basic precautions like wearing a mask inside a grocery store has the exact same intent as deciding to drive drunk. It carries a risk, and it's disproportionately going to affect other people, completely against their will.  Saying "it's MY choice (to endanger your life)!" in either scenario makes you a selfish asshole.

We know that when we're drunk and we choose to drive drunk, there's an intent to break the law. The law exists to keep drunk people from killing others. The knowledge of that and the intent to drive when drunk makes it a slam dunk legally.

An asymptomatic person out shopping with a mask on? An asymptomatic person eating at a restaurant with a mask off? No chance in hell they'd be convicted of a crime. There have been super spreader events, none of the super spreaders has been charged or convicted of anything (because mal intent was not provable). The only time in my line of arguments that I mentioned a person without a mask in a store was referencing someone who did get arrested, but you're desperate to take this about no one wearing masks anywhere to make a corollary to the line of thinking you've hyper focused on.

Stop and re-read what you wrote:

"make a mountain of all the dead bodies"
"if no one wears a mask"
' "its my choice to endanger your life" '
"makes you a selfish asshole"

You're absolutely arguing in bad faith, multiple people have called you out on it and you keep trying to express the same sentiment in a more belligerent fashion. Maybe you should go outside, get some sun and exercise and chill the F out.

scottish

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4495 on: November 03, 2020, 03:36:03 PM »
RSM, what's the big deal about wearing a mask, anyway?     Do you have a job where it's very uncomfortable to wear a mask?     DW has a respiratory condition where she finds it difficult to breath while wearing a mask.    I know some people get mask anxiety.

There's a big anti-mask protest (well big by Canadian standards) planned in Aylmer (near London, ON) this Saturday.    I don't really understand what they're protesting though.

Davnasty

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4496 on: November 03, 2020, 03:44:06 PM »
Really?

The people in the office you work have assumed that risk?  The person walking past you in the supermarket has assumed that risk?  The cashier at the check out counter has?  The cashier's elderly mother who she lives with has?

The problem is, you can't realistically isolate your actions to only hurt yourself.  They impact everyone.  We aren't a land of rugged individuals.  We're human beings and we live in a complicated social web of dependencies on each other.

Ok the problem with this is that you aren't endangering yourself by not wearing a mask, you are endangering other people, that's the point that is being made.

So to basically flip it right back on you, if you are concerned about drunk driving, just don't drive drunk, that is your right.  I will however perform my own risk assessment and drive in whatever state I feel personally comfortable with.

ETA: And people are very bad at risk assessment.  Unbelievably bad.  You want to go swimming in shark infested water because you've done your own risk assessment? Go ahead.  You want to release a bunch of sharks (with lasers) into the public pool because you've done your own risk assessment and deemed it not risky? No thanks. 

Both of these posts are nice summaries as to why most COVID precautions to "slow the spread" are exponentially more detrimental to poor people than privileged people. They get to do zero risk assessment whatsoever while they stock your shelves and bag your groceries.

This was the biggest argument against lockdowns and other less stringent isolation measures prior to COVID.

Look at this 108 page CDC document from 2007 -- https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/11425

It thoroughly discusses the pros and cons of various policies, from masks to social distancing to closing schools to home isolation. Unfortunately, discussing the "cons" has somehow become aligned with "TRUMP" because, well, who knows.

Read it for yourself, but COVID is quite clearly a "Category 2" Pandemic. We are implementing Category 5 protocols, and all of you guys are using Category 5 logic. Why?

Someone else already pointed this out but you didn't respond so I thought maybe you missed it.

Throughout this document it's stated no less than 10 times that pandemic severity should be based primarily on case fatality rate, which would make the current pandemic a solid 5. Excess deaths is a secondary measure and is based on an "unmitigated pandemic without interventions". Obviously the current pandemic is not unmitigated but projections* based on that reality would have put it at a 4-5 on the severity scale.

Does that answer the question of why?

*For further clarification, projections is what the document calls for when assigning severity. It seems you may have been thinking in terms of actual deaths.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 03:48:24 PM by Davnasty »

fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4497 on: November 03, 2020, 04:04:56 PM »

Drunk = a verifiable state. The driver in that case is guilty. There's intent that comes with that decision.

Drunk is a verifiable state.  But if a 200 lb guy three or four pints over a couple hours, is he drunk?  Hmm.  Tough to say.  Certainly a guy at a bar has no idea.  Is there intent to kill someone else?  Probably not.  He has to guess based on what he thinks drunk feels like since breathalyzers are not standard bar equipment.  And he might guess wrong.

Having covid is a verifiable state.  Certainly the average person going about their day has no idea.  Is there intent to kill someone else if you fail to socially distance/wear a mask/go to parties/go to restaurants?  Probably not.  He has to guess if he has covid since often there are no symptoms and testing is not available any time someone needs it.  And he might guess wrong.

We typically hold drunk drivers responsible for their reckless actions these days.  This only happened after years of fighting people who didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing.  We don't currently hold people with covid responsible for their actions.  Currently there is lots of push back from people who don't see anything wrong with what they are doing.

A driver can be charged with impaired driving even if under 0.08% if it affects their ability to drive safely. There are personal breathalyzers and testing strips, neither of which require a Dr to order or extended wait times for results. Its easy not to drink at all or to never drive even if you've just had one drink. That's how you drive safely.  Should I sit online and complain all day long about people who had one sip of alcohol 4 hours ago and how it doesn't meet my personal comfort level for driving, even if its well within legal limits?

The opposite is not true of COVID. By merely existing, but not even actively doing anything, a person can infected. Their possible or confirmed infectiousness does not automatically make them a criminal. If anyone could be infected and we cannot risk anyone being in public (even performing public duties that are necessary), then everyone would be locked in their homes. But then again, without police or healthcare workers (who would also need to be locked in their homes for it to work) there would be a breakdown of society. So when we accept that we must keep certain functions going, we create restrictions to balance freedoms vs basic public safety, knowing that there is going to be a balance that some people aren't thrilled about. Along the way we messed up a huge segment of society who needed to work, but was deemed non-essential and as the months dragged back on we had to re-open. Nowhere in the US is currently in lock down. The fact remains that you are still bent out of shape about when others are doing COMPLETELY LEGAL things that don't fall in line with your thoughts on what should be allowed. Have you ever seen me argue to disobey state or local laws regarding COVID? I dare you to find it. My issue is that in the zeal to appear to be doing something, we get nitwits who believe that they're making a difference by becoming the internet morality police, and the same people call their local govt begging for more rules so they can feel safe. (Hint: safety is an illusion)

That in turn gets things like my local health dept publishing a list of "safe Halloween activities" (which included watching a scary movie with only the family I live with -- thanks Health Dept for allowing me to be able to continue to watch movies in my own home!), or this nonsense in California for Thanksgiving:

"The guidelines state that no more than three households can gather together at a time. Gatherings must be held outside and should last less than two hours. Attendees may go inside to use restrooms as long as the restrooms are frequently sanitized. Also, singing, chanting, and shouting are strongly discouraged."

What the hell is this? How frequently should restrooms be sanitized? Where should I send my signed sanitization logs to?
Is humming ok? What number should I call if I want to rat out my neighbors who I hear chanting in their yard?

If you can't see the slow erosion of freedoms, or the slow indoctrination of mob rule, you're blind to what's going on. You're being programmed to turn on other theoretical people who you can't even prove have done something illegal.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 04:08:48 PM by fuzzy math »

scottish

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4498 on: November 03, 2020, 05:52:29 PM »
I dunno dude.   If you're worried about erosion of your rights and freedoms I think voter suppression is a bigger risk than public health regulations.

RetiredAt63

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4499 on: November 03, 2020, 06:42:26 PM »
This reminds me of the doctors who were insulted to be told that they should wash their hands after autopsies brfore attending their women patients in labour.  Their hands looked clean, and childbirth fever was caused by miasma anyway.  Just like malaria is caused by bad air.

A huge contributor to public health these days is caused by public health measures.  You get clean water delivered and sewage processed by your municipality, or you get your well water checked by your local health region and your septic system looked after by pumping out the septic tank for proper disposal and you keep tree roots out of your leach field.   You don't have your outhouse or your farm manure pile close to your dug well.

And most masks are not to protect you from others, they are to protect others from you.  I wear my mask to protect you, in case I am infectious, you wear your mask to protect me, in case you are infectious.  We both keep our distances to protect each other.  And remember the degrees of connection thing?  You don't know who you are being exposed to by a few degrees of connection, and you don't know who you might be exposing by a few degrees of connection.  Or as the public health doctors who track STIs point out, when you have sex with someone, disease-wise you are exposed to every partner your partner has had, all the way down the line.

The point I am trying to make here is that public health measures are to protect us from us, since we are all germ factories to some extent or another.  Please don't be the Covid equivalent of typhoid Mary, who was asymptomatic and shedding germs like mad.