Author Topic: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?  (Read 361989 times)

Davnasty

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4400 on: November 01, 2020, 01:10:37 PM »
Meehan is an anti-vaxxer, pro-QAnon and his twitter profile is more partisan than medical.  I don't think it's unfair to assume that the Mayo Clinic, UCSF, MIT and a host of other non-partisan instutitions are less motivated to dig up possibly spurious information because of political motivations.  His motivations are the Platonic ideal of suspect.  Anyone that believes in QAnon is someone I probably wouldn't believe if they told me the sky was blue, just to be safe.

I saw his other articles and thus clicked more than half of the studies he cited to view the direct sources; those supported his overall conclusion. I agree he is a clown on a variety of other issues, but that does not mean he is wrong about masks.

RSM, you need to understand that the vast majority of academic papers and studies fall by the wayside.   Only a small fraction turn into accepted science.

There are so many papers and studies about covid-19 right now that you can use them to build an argument for just about any point of view.

The appeal to Dr Fauci is not a blind appeal to authority, but rather listening to an expert who collaborates with other experts through the process of sorting out fact from fantasy.

The appeal to authority is a logical fallacy that occurs when you are asking people to trust someone's opinion who is not an expert on the topic under discussion.  Fauci is trained and informed to be an expert on the corovavirus.  Appeal to authority therefore doesn't apply in his case.  If someone was pointing to a person who is respected in some fields but not epidemiology like say . . . the pope, or Stephen Hawkings . . . that would fit the appeal to authority fallacy.  As mentioned, Fauci is an authority on this because he is one of the best informed and well trained people regarding this particular problem.  His opinion should matter and be counted.  (Otherwise appeal to authority would be used in debate as a weapon to silence experts.)

Appeal to authority is when one claims their position is true because an authority figure says so, without supporting evidence. It can still apply if the authority figure is legitimate.

Also important to note that it doesn't necessarily mean the position is wrong, just that the supporting evidence has not been given.

cerat0n1a

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4401 on: November 01, 2020, 02:15:26 PM »
On a broader note, and I have said this many times -- if government wants me to wear a mask, the burden of proof is on the government to show me that they work, not on me to show that they do not work.

You prefer to believe an anti-vaccine, QAnon espousing conspiracy theorist over the chief medical scientists of your own country and almost all of those in Europe. Honestly, I'm not sure that there is anything the government could do to prove to you that masks work.

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4402 on: November 01, 2020, 04:46:29 PM »
Upon continuing to read this thread, this community is every bit as soft as the consumerists that it makes fun of. Next person to unironically say "complainy-pants" after this is all over gets fired into outer space.

the_fixer

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4403 on: November 01, 2020, 04:56:14 PM »
Upon continuing to read this thread, this community is every bit as soft as the consumerists that it makes fun of. Next person to unironically say "complainy-pants" after this is all over gets fired into outer space.
Please explain.


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mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4404 on: November 01, 2020, 05:02:35 PM »
Upon continuing to read this thread, this community is every bit as soft as the consumerists that it makes fun of. Next person to unironically say "complainy-pants" after this is all over gets fired into outer space.
Please explain.


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Just the idea that live sports, sit down dining and bunko even get brought up as to what we're missing by trying to address a very serious public health crisis. It feels super first-worldy to me.

Maybe I'm biased because I'm relatively young and I've adapted well to seeing friends over video call and stuff. I'm doing my best to understand that. And I've encouraged people to loosen up if their mental health is seriously deteriorating. But if that's the case, we're just not as tough and "bad-ass" as we thought. And we should probably nuke the "Anti-Mustachian Wall of Shame/Comedy".

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4405 on: November 01, 2020, 05:09:35 PM »
Next person to unironically say "complainy-pants" after this is all over gets fired into outer space.

This reminds me of my childhood living in a century old converted log cabin with heavy add-ons and modifications that added several rooms and a whole extra story.  It was an interesting place to grow up, at least partly because the cracks in the log walls served as little superhighways for tiny red ants of an obscure Northern variety known as 'neep' to locals.  Anyhoo, about a year after moving in to the house I realized that the ants would respond to a human voice by forming up into  complex patterns of marching formations.  Additional study allowed me to learn the ability to hum the right tone to make the insects march in a whole variety of entertaining way, eventually becoming able to control them with great precision - even re-enacting football games from television by orchestrating my little servants.  This was such a fun past time for me that every day I'd run in the door and start unironically yelling

"Come play, neep ants!"





:D

Come at me bro!
« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 05:11:23 PM by GuitarStv »

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4406 on: November 01, 2020, 05:11:05 PM »
Next person to unironically say "complainy-pants" after this is all over gets fired into outer space.

This reminds me of my childhood living in a century old converted log cabin with heavy add-ons and modifications that added several rooms and a whole extra story.  It was an interesting place to grow up, at least partly because the cracks in the log walls served as little superhighways for tiny red ants of an obscure Northern variety known as 'neep' to locals.  Anyhoo, about a year after moving in to the house I realized that the ants would respond to a human voice by forming up into  complex patterns of marching formations.  Additional study allowed me to learn the ability to hum the right tone to make the insects march in a whole variety of entertaining way, eventually learning to control them with great precision - even re-enacting football games from television by orchestrating my little servants.  This was such a fun past time for me that every day I'd run in the door and start unironically yelling

"Come play, neep ants!"





:D

Come at me bro!

I laughed IRL, but it was in a sad trombone kind of way. :)

OtherJen

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4407 on: November 01, 2020, 05:11:21 PM »
Next person to unironically say "complainy-pants" after this is all over gets fired into outer space.

This reminds me of my childhood living in a century old converted log cabin with heavy add-ons and modifications that added several rooms and a whole extra story.  It was an interesting place to grow up, at least partly because the cracks in the log walls served as little superhighways for tiny red ants of an obscure Northern variety known as 'neep' to locals.  Anyhoo, about a year after moving in to the house I realized that the ants would respond to a human voice by forming complex patterns.  Additional study allowed me to learn the ability to hum the right tone to make the insects march in a whole variety of entertaining way, eventually learning to control them with great precision - even re-enacting football games from television by orchestrating my little servants.  This was such a fun past time for me that every day I'd run in the door and start unironically yelling

"Come play, neep ants!"





:D

Come at me bro!

That is a terrible pun worthy of my choir directors. I salute you, sir.

the_fixer

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4408 on: November 01, 2020, 05:17:11 PM »
Upon continuing to read this thread, this community is every bit as soft as the consumerists that it makes fun of. Next person to unironically say "complainy-pants" after this is all over gets fired into outer space.
Please explain.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just the idea that live sports, sit down dining and bunko even get brought up as to what we're missing by trying to address a very serious public health crisis. It feels super first-worldy to me.

Maybe I'm biased because I'm relatively young and I've adapted well to seeing friends over video call and stuff. I'm doing my best to understand that. And I've encouraged people to loosen up if their mental health is seriously deteriorating. But if that's the case, we're just not as tough and "bad-ass" as we thought. And we should probably nuke the "Anti-Mustachian Wall of Shame/Comedy".
Thanks I get it / agree.


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mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4409 on: November 01, 2020, 05:34:33 PM »
This is really tough for me because I usually don't like to call people out for being "soft" because I think it's pretty toxic. But I just can't abide by being so desperate not to wear a mask that we're seeking out anti-vaxxers to tell us it's okay, or describing partial lockdowns and half capacity restaurants as a slow drip towards totalitarianism when the White House is trying to get ballots thrown away and very loudly signaling that votes counted after Tuesday (as millions are every election) are illegitimate.

I just don't have it in me to entertain all that right now.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4410 on: November 01, 2020, 05:57:09 PM »
Next person to unironically say "complainy-pants" after this is all over gets fired into outer space.

This reminds me of my childhood living in a century old converted log cabin with heavy add-ons and modifications that added several rooms and a whole extra story.  It was an interesting place to grow up, at least partly because the cracks in the log walls served as little superhighways for tiny red ants of an obscure Northern variety known as 'neep' to locals.  Anyhoo, about a year after moving in to the house I realized that the ants would respond to a human voice by forming up into  complex patterns of marching formations.  Additional study allowed me to learn the ability to hum the right tone to make the insects march in a whole variety of entertaining way, eventually learning to control them with great precision - even re-enacting football games from television by orchestrating my little servants.  This was such a fun past time for me that every day I'd run in the door and start unironically yelling

"Come play, neep ants!"





:D

Come at me bro!

I laughed IRL, but it was in a sad trombone kind of way.


sui generis

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4411 on: November 01, 2020, 06:49:34 PM »
This is really tough for me because I usually don't like to call people out for being "soft" because I think it's pretty toxic. But I just can't abide by being so desperate not to wear a mask that we're seeking out anti-vaxxers to tell us it's okay, or describing partial lockdowns and half capacity restaurants as a slow drip towards totalitarianism when the White House is trying to get ballots thrown away and very loudly signaling that votes counted after Tuesday (as millions are every election) are illegitimate.

I just don't have it in me to entertain all that right now.

Yes. 1000 times this

Abe

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4412 on: November 01, 2020, 07:20:04 PM »
I dunno if we’re still arguing about masks still but here’s a meta-analysis from 2017 showing that hospital masks and N95s reduce the risk of various viral illnesses in high-risk groups (healthcare workers). In randomized trials, they reduced the risk of any clinically evident respiratory illness by 40% and influenza-like illness by 66%.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29140516/
« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 07:22:22 PM by Abe »

mizzourah2006

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4413 on: November 02, 2020, 08:33:42 AM »
Upon continuing to read this thread, this community is every bit as soft as the consumerists that it makes fun of. Next person to unironically say "complainy-pants" after this is all over gets fired into outer space.
Please explain.


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Just the idea that live sports, sit down dining and bunko even get brought up as to what we're missing by trying to address a very serious public health crisis. It feels super first-worldy to me.

Maybe I'm biased because I'm relatively young and I've adapted well to seeing friends over video call and stuff. I'm doing my best to understand that. And I've encouraged people to loosen up if their mental health is seriously deteriorating. But if that's the case, we're just not as tough and "bad-ass" as we thought. And we should probably nuke the "Anti-Mustachian Wall of Shame/Comedy".

Sure, but isn't that kind of like the problem with all the complainy pants threads in the first place. I'm not sure it's fair to judge people based off of one or two things that might be very important to them in their life because they personally seem meaningless to you. I'm not huge into traveling, but if people said that they really missed traveling and family vacations were some of the most important parts of their year and that's been hard on them I wouldn't judge them because something that's not that important to me is really important to them. I think the entire point of being mustachian is focusing on what brings value to your life and not being a blind consumer. The fact that live sports brings value to someone's life and they miss it may very well be a "first world problem" but it's no more right or wrong than someone else saying they miss international travel, or hanging out with family, or happy hour with friends.

Different strokes for different folks, surely you don't expect everyone on this forum to be living a completely Spartan lifestyle.

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4414 on: November 02, 2020, 09:14:21 AM »
This is an excellent article about masks: https://www.meehanmd.com/blog/2020-10-10-an-evidence-based-scientific-analysis-of-why-masks-are-ineffective-unnecessary-and-harmful/

If anyone smarter than I am wants to tell me why it's wrong, I'm open to the discourse. But it seems to me that the scientific evidence over the last 40 years is crystal clear that they do not work on a community wide basis.

Anecdotally, Ohio has had a mask mandate since June 23. We are now seeing our surge despite several polls showing 90% compliance in public. My personal observation is that I maybe see 1-2 people in any given store or setting without masks.

The same is going on in several other states and European countries. Austria, Germany, France, Spain have had mask mandates for many months with very high compliance, and they are all now seeing surges.

It's all quite a sad farce that this is looking at some fringe opinion instead of the reality. We can acknowledge it and try to make better policy or continue on this idiotic path.

That dude is an anti-vaxxer and certified quack. I wouldn't trust anything from him, to the point of not even clicking on his website. 

https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/jim-meehan-anti-vaccine-rant-examining-claims/

And no one has ever claimed wearing a cloth mask is 100% effective and will completely stop the spread.  It's like everyone along the coast putting up sandbags for an incoming hurricane, then after the hurricane you walk around and are like "OMG look at this! Almost every business and residence on the coast put up sandbags to prevent flooding and we still had a bunch of places get flooded! Obviously sandbags do not work! In fact they probably even caused the flooding!"

Ohio is #43 out of 51 states (including DC) for per capita infections.  Maybe that mask mandate is actually working better than you think?

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4415 on: November 02, 2020, 03:19:53 PM »
Sure, but isn't that kind of like the problem with all the complainy pants threads in the first place. I'm not sure it's fair to judge people based off of one or two things that might be very important to them in their life because they personally seem meaningless to you. I'm not huge into traveling, but if people said that they really missed traveling and family vacations were some of the most important parts of their year and that's been hard on them I wouldn't judge them because something that's not that important to me is really important to them. I think the entire point of being mustachian is focusing on what brings value to your life and not being a blind consumer. The fact that live sports brings value to someone's life and they miss it may very well be a "first world problem" but it's no more right or wrong than someone else saying they miss international travel, or hanging out with family, or happy hour with friends.

Different strokes for different folks, surely you don't expect everyone on this forum to be living a completely Spartan lifestyle.

That's the thing, I typically don't pass judgement over these things. I think it's a very big but also very lame part of the FIRE community. And of course things like socializing and recreation are incredibly important. I like these things too. Trust me when I say that I'm not someone who typically cares about what someone values with their time and money. The circumstances are a little bit different when, by necessity, we have to weigh these things against a public health risk that is killing thousands of people a week right now in the US.

Longwaytogo

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4416 on: November 02, 2020, 03:56:05 PM »
Upon continuing to read this thread, this community is every bit as soft as the consumerists that it makes fun of. Next person to unironically say "complainy-pants" after this is all over gets fired into outer space.
Please explain.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just the idea that live sports, sit down dining and bunko even get brought up as to what we're missing by trying to address a very serious public health crisis. It feels super first-worldy to me.

Maybe I'm biased because I'm relatively young and I've adapted well to seeing friends over video call and stuff. I'm doing my best to understand that. And I've encouraged people to loosen up if their mental health is seriously deteriorating. But if that's the case, we're just not as tough and "bad-ass" as we thought. And we should probably nuke the "Anti-Mustachian Wall of Shame/Comedy".

Well I don't miss Bunko since my wife is the one who plays it (;

For many of the reasons they mentioned my life has been turned upside down, sports, concerts, date nights, book club, bunko for my wife, hanging with friends/family, etc. etc. but as much as all that stuff sucks we have put up with it to an extent and have re-introduced some outdoor socialization and what have you.

I love live sports, live music, my kids playing youth sports, seeing friends and all that, I'm extremely extroverted and social. But I can and have put that stuff on hold, what I can't see continuing is the school closures. That has turned our life/household upside down. My wife is a teacher and I have an 8 and 10 year old so 3/4 of my household has had their lives completely up-ended and it is miserable.

Virtual school is awful, no one likes it. My kids cry all the time, they are depressed, as is my wife, people are learning nothing or very little,  it isn't working :(

But as I said, we're willing to put it on hold a while longer; the school is the really hard part.

Do you have kids Mathlete?

That's the really difficult part for me; I've adapted somewhat as well. I've always spent a fair amount of time online (like this Forum) Have multiple group text chats going with friends, will call folks on my work commute to catch up; can easily stay 6 feet apart when socializing outdoors, etc.

But kids don't really do 6 feet apart (at least young kids) as they like to sit and play with toys together or wrestle/hug and what not; and they get sick of Facetime/ phone calls.  My older daughter was dealing with some anxiety/depression before this even started and it was made much worse by Covid/lockdown. Thats a big part of the reason we loosened up and started seeing friends/family more over the Summer.

It is "first worldly" and selfish;  and I fully admit to being a flawed human.


-----------------

I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Could also be the folks who are getting on with living their lives don't speak up on threads like this or the "Covid Holiday Guilt" threads and such because they don't feel like being berated and called Trumpers and what not.

That's another thing that kills me; anytime someone questions masks/lockdowns/etc. everyone assumes they are some white trash southern Trump lover. I'm in Maryland and 95/100 people I know have voted democrat their whole lives and they are still having dinner with friends or trick or treating or whatever.  I understand that Trump has boggled the covid response big time but I don't get where everyone thinks the folks who are sick of the lockdown are automatically pro Trump; you can hate Trump with a burning passion and still want to go to a friends house; or love him and still be locked down like we were in April. People are allowed to reach their own life decisions without consulting the party they vote for.

bacchi

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4417 on: November 02, 2020, 04:16:26 PM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Interesting. My street is the street for Halloween and kids are driven in from other parts of the city. It was dead. Decorations were up but no front porch lights and no kids and no traffic.

mm1970

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4418 on: November 02, 2020, 04:21:54 PM »
Quote
That's another thing that kills me; anytime someone questions masks/lockdowns/etc. everyone assumes they are some white trash southern Trump lover. I'm in Maryland and 95/100 people I know have voted democrat their whole lives and they are still having dinner with friends or trick or treating or whatever.  I understand that Trump has boggled the covid response big time but I don't get where everyone thinks the folks who are sick of the lockdown are automatically pro Trump; you can hate Trump with a burning passion and still want to go to a friends house; or love him and still be locked down like we were in April. People are allowed to reach their own life decisions without consulting the party they vote for.
I'm in California, and most of the people I know are democrats.  A metric ton of people I know are doing Halloween, having parties and get togethers, sometimes with masks, sometimes without.

I chalk it up to a great deal of privilege.  These folks don't live with elderly grandparents, they aren't essential workers, they don't work with sick people, they have health insurance, they are healthy, so "why should I really worry about COVID?"  Our COVID spikes, till now, have been in the north county "poor folks", the farm workers, the Latinos, not the middle class white folk.  Oh, we have a spike now in the college town, but hey they don't hang with college kids either.

Longwaytogo

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4419 on: November 02, 2020, 04:49:17 PM »
Quote
That's another thing that kills me; anytime someone questions masks/lockdowns/etc. everyone assumes they are some white trash southern Trump lover. I'm in Maryland and 95/100 people I know have voted democrat their whole lives and they are still having dinner with friends or trick or treating or whatever.  I understand that Trump has boggled the covid response big time but I don't get where everyone thinks the folks who are sick of the lockdown are automatically pro Trump; you can hate Trump with a burning passion and still want to go to a friends house; or love him and still be locked down like we were in April. People are allowed to reach their own life decisions without consulting the party they vote for.
I'm in California, and most of the people I know are democrats.  A metric ton of people I know are doing Halloween, having parties and get togethers, sometimes with masks, sometimes without.

I chalk it up to a great deal of privilege.  These folks don't live with elderly grandparents, they aren't essential workers, they don't work with sick people, they have health insurance, they are healthy, so "why should I really worry about COVID?"  Our COVID spikes, till now, have been in the north county "poor folks", the farm workers, the Latinos, not the middle class white folk.  Oh, we have a spike now in the college town, but hey they don't hang with college kids either.

Fully admit most folks in my circle are "privileged white people"; but the vast majority of my family are essential workers - construction (like 20 of us) , mechanics, police, firefighter, UPS driver, multiple nurses; and they're all out and about as much as anyone. I also have tons of multi generational families (including my parents who have my sisters family living with them)

One of my cousins married a nurse in August and they had an in person wedding with ~150 people. There were easily 10-12 people there over 75 including the preacher and one of the brides great grandparents on oxygen. There were also ~20 people from the hospital he works at in attendance, Doctors, nurses, etc.

One of the older folks ~ 95 used to be my family pastor and I even asked him (with my mask on) why he decided to come to the Wedding and he said "life must go on".

There could still be some privilege involved of course; but not the "working from home on our laptop privilege".

In fact I've noticed amongst folks I know the ones who are working from home are the ones still not going out much/ at all; like it's almost foreign for them to leave the house now. Vs all the essential workers who are like "well if I get it I'm most likely getting it from the 40+ hours I spent at work so I may as well do XYZ for a couple hours of fun per week"

-----------

Anyhow, it's just strange. When I read on here how cautious everyone's being I think "Longwaytogo your doing too much, need to be careful" but then when I see/hear/read what everyone in my real life is doing I think "well I'm doing less and being more careful than them at least"

Just a strange juxtaposition.

Longwaytogo

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4420 on: November 02, 2020, 04:53:06 PM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Interesting. My street is the street for Halloween and kids are driven in from other parts of the city. It was dead. Decorations were up but no front porch lights and no kids and no traffic.

I'm mostly going by what I saw on Facebook. There were a lot of "distanced" ideas like candy on tables, candy dropped down pipes etc. but also saw quite a few parties, bonfires, etc.

I live on a  private drive with only 8 houses, half of whom I'm related too and have been in a "bubble" with the whole time so we did more or less our normal trick or treating amongst those 8 houses. My one older neighbor had his candy out on the porch vs him normally inviting us in. Other then that mostly the same as any other year.

OtherJen

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4421 on: November 02, 2020, 04:53:49 PM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Interesting. My street is the street for Halloween and kids are driven in from other parts of the city. It was dead. Decorations were up but no front porch lights and no kids and no traffic.

Same. Our neighborhood was dead on Saturday.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4422 on: November 02, 2020, 06:15:38 PM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Interesting. My street is the street for Halloween and kids are driven in from other parts of the city. It was dead. Decorations were up but no front porch lights and no kids and no traffic.

Same. Our neighborhood was dead on Saturday.

Our city officially cancelled Halloween.  It was the first time I've ever not handed out candy to kids.  :(

Longwaytogo

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4423 on: November 02, 2020, 06:23:10 PM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Interesting. My street is the street for Halloween and kids are driven in from other parts of the city. It was dead. Decorations were up but no front porch lights and no kids and no traffic.

Same. Our neighborhood was dead on Saturday.

Our city officially cancelled Halloween.  It was the first time I've ever not handed out candy to kids.  :(

Our county officially cancelled it too, didn't seem to stop a lot of folks.

OtherJen

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4424 on: November 02, 2020, 06:34:28 PM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Interesting. My street is the street for Halloween and kids are driven in from other parts of the city. It was dead. Decorations were up but no front porch lights and no kids and no traffic.

Same. Our neighborhood was dead on Saturday.

Our city officially cancelled Halloween.  It was the first time I've ever not handed out candy to kids.  :(

Our county officially cancelled it too, didn't seem to stop a lot of folks.

Ours didnít. Most people opted out on their own. My friends in another Detroit suburb built an elaborate candy chute and a bunch of decorations and got only a dozen or so kids. My SIL on the other side of Michigan kept her kids home.

scottish

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4425 on: November 02, 2020, 06:59:00 PM »
There wasn't much Halloween here either.   Some folks left a bowl of treats on a table on their driveway, but I don't think we saw any kids out.

Vancouver on the other hand....

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-halloween-mayhem-saw-several-stabbings-porsche-on-fire-police-mobbed

fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4426 on: November 02, 2020, 07:29:14 PM »
Quote
That's another thing that kills me; anytime someone questions masks/lockdowns/etc. everyone assumes they are some white trash southern Trump lover. I'm in Maryland and 95/100 people I know have voted democrat their whole lives and they are still having dinner with friends or trick or treating or whatever.  I understand that Trump has boggled the covid response big time but I don't get where everyone thinks the folks who are sick of the lockdown are automatically pro Trump; you can hate Trump with a burning passion and still want to go to a friends house; or love him and still be locked down like we were in April. People are allowed to reach their own life decisions without consulting the party they vote for.
I'm in California, and most of the people I know are democrats.  A metric ton of people I know are doing Halloween, having parties and get togethers, sometimes with masks, sometimes without.

I chalk it up to a great deal of privilege.  These folks don't live with elderly grandparents, they aren't essential workers, they don't work with sick people, they have health insurance, they are healthy, so "why should I really worry about COVID?"  Our COVID spikes, till now, have been in the north county "poor folks", the farm workers, the Latinos, not the middle class white folk.  Oh, we have a spike now in the college town, but hey they don't hang with college kids either.

Fully admit most folks in my circle are "privileged white people"; but the vast majority of my family are essential workers - construction (like 20 of us) , mechanics, police, firefighter, UPS driver, multiple nurses; and they're all out and about as much as anyone. I also have tons of multi generational families (including my parents who have my sisters family living with them)

One of my cousins married a nurse in August and they had an in person wedding with ~150 people. There were easily 10-12 people there over 75 including the preacher and one of the brides great grandparents on oxygen. There were also ~20 people from the hospital he works at in attendance, Doctors, nurses, etc.

One of the older folks ~ 95 used to be my family pastor and I even asked him (with my mask on) why he decided to come to the Wedding and he said "life must go on".

There could still be some privilege involved of course; but not the "working from home on our laptop privilege".

In fact I've noticed amongst folks I know the ones who are working from home are the ones still not going out much/ at all; like it's almost foreign for them to leave the house now. Vs all the essential workers who are like "well if I get it I'm most likely getting it from the 40+ hours I spent at work so I may as well do XYZ for a couple hours of fun per week"

-----------

Anyhow, it's just strange. When I read on here how cautious everyone's being I think "Longwaytogo your doing too much, need to be careful" but then when I see/hear/read what everyone in my real life is doing I think "well I'm doing less and being more careful than them at least"

Just a strange juxtaposition.

Your experience is what I see too (as opposed to the one you quoted). It's only the privileged who are still sitting in their homes. The rest have been out for work and have resumed life (with varying sets of precautions).

Paper Chaser

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4427 on: November 03, 2020, 04:06:13 AM »
Quote
That's another thing that kills me; anytime someone questions masks/lockdowns/etc. everyone assumes they are some white trash southern Trump lover. I'm in Maryland and 95/100 people I know have voted democrat their whole lives and they are still having dinner with friends or trick or treating or whatever.  I understand that Trump has boggled the covid response big time but I don't get where everyone thinks the folks who are sick of the lockdown are automatically pro Trump; you can hate Trump with a burning passion and still want to go to a friends house; or love him and still be locked down like we were in April. People are allowed to reach their own life decisions without consulting the party they vote for.
I'm in California, and most of the people I know are democrats.  A metric ton of people I know are doing Halloween, having parties and get togethers, sometimes with masks, sometimes without.

I chalk it up to a great deal of privilege.  These folks don't live with elderly grandparents, they aren't essential workers, they don't work with sick people, they have health insurance, they are healthy, so "why should I really worry about COVID?"  Our COVID spikes, till now, have been in the north county "poor folks", the farm workers, the Latinos, not the middle class white folk.  Oh, we have a spike now in the college town, but hey they don't hang with college kids either.

Fully admit most folks in my circle are "privileged white people"; but the vast majority of my family are essential workers - construction (like 20 of us) , mechanics, police, firefighter, UPS driver, multiple nurses; and they're all out and about as much as anyone. I also have tons of multi generational families (including my parents who have my sisters family living with them)

One of my cousins married a nurse in August and they had an in person wedding with ~150 people. There were easily 10-12 people there over 75 including the preacher and one of the brides great grandparents on oxygen. There were also ~20 people from the hospital he works at in attendance, Doctors, nurses, etc.

One of the older folks ~ 95 used to be my family pastor and I even asked him (with my mask on) why he decided to come to the Wedding and he said "life must go on".

There could still be some privilege involved of course; but not the "working from home on our laptop privilege".

In fact I've noticed amongst folks I know the ones who are working from home are the ones still not going out much/ at all; like it's almost foreign for them to leave the house now. Vs all the essential workers who are like "well if I get it I'm most likely getting it from the 40+ hours I spent at work so I may as well do XYZ for a couple hours of fun per week"

-----------

Anyhow, it's just strange. When I read on here how cautious everyone's being I think "Longwaytogo your doing too much, need to be careful" but then when I see/hear/read what everyone in my real life is doing I think "well I'm doing less and being more careful than them at least"

Just a strange juxtaposition.

Your experience is what I see too (as opposed to the one you quoted). It's only the privileged who are still sitting in their homes. The rest have been out for work and have resumed life (with varying sets of precautions).

Same here. Most of the people I know may have gotten a couple of weeks off in the spring during full shutdown but they've been back to work with kids back in school for months. They're taking reasonable precautions in public, but going about their lives pretty normally (work, school, church, family gatherings, etc).

LightTripper

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4428 on: November 03, 2020, 04:32:23 AM »
We're in London, UK, where Halloween never used to be a thing but has taken off in the last few years.  We live near one street that takes it very seriously, and I often pass through on my way home from work and it is CARNAGE normally (couple of hundred people milling around).

This year there were some decorated houses, doing a "pumpkin trail" (idea being your kids can still get dressed up and go out, and we took sweets with us and gave our own kids a sweet for each pumpkin they spotted).  Some people did leave bowls of sweets out but only a couple in the whole neighbourhood (usually there'd be at least 20-30 houses handing out sweets, probably more).

However, most people weren't even doing that.  We only saw maybe 10 other families out with their kids.  It all felt perfectly safe, but maybe people felt that if it wasn't "the real thing" it wasn't worth doing at all.

I do think it's a good point that people having to go out and about for work or other reasons are likely to get desensitised and to take more risks in other areas of their lives.  I know when schools were closed here I felt very anxious about even passing people in the street too close.  I'm sure if I'd been working in a shop or hospital all day I would have felt rather differently.  As I've learned more and my kids have gone back to school I've become much more relaxed about outdoor meetings - but I still haven't been indoors to a pub or restaurant, or into a shop unmasked, since early March.

We're going into a kind of lockdown here again and although I am kind of dreading having to keep the kids entertained through the weekends with no social interaction and worsening weather, in a way I'm glad as it makes life simple.  In any case it is necessary here, as our infection curves were hitting the point where our hospitals were going to become overwhelmed.  Whatever you think about how you should deal with this pandemic, I can't think many reasonable people would argue that you should let it run to a point where doctors are having to make decisions not to treat some people who could have been helped, but they lack the resources to do so.  As somebody with elderly parents, and also friends my own age with conditions that make them vulnerable, all of whom have a lot to do, experience and give in this world still, I cannot sign up to that.

Longwaytogo

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4429 on: November 03, 2020, 05:56:58 AM »
Quote
That's another thing that kills me; anytime someone questions masks/lockdowns/etc. everyone assumes they are some white trash southern Trump lover. I'm in Maryland and 95/100 people I know have voted democrat their whole lives and they are still having dinner with friends or trick or treating or whatever.  I understand that Trump has boggled the covid response big time but I don't get where everyone thinks the folks who are sick of the lockdown are automatically pro Trump; you can hate Trump with a burning passion and still want to go to a friends house; or love him and still be locked down like we were in April. People are allowed to reach their own life decisions without consulting the party they vote for.
I'm in California, and most of the people I know are democrats.  A metric ton of people I know are doing Halloween, having parties and get togethers, sometimes with masks, sometimes without.

I chalk it up to a great deal of privilege.  These folks don't live with elderly grandparents, they aren't essential workers, they don't work with sick people, they have health insurance, they are healthy, so "why should I really worry about COVID?"  Our COVID spikes, till now, have been in the north county "poor folks", the farm workers, the Latinos, not the middle class white folk.  Oh, we have a spike now in the college town, but hey they don't hang with college kids either.

Fully admit most folks in my circle are "privileged white people"; but the vast majority of my family are essential workers - construction (like 20 of us) , mechanics, police, firefighter, UPS driver, multiple nurses; and they're all out and about as much as anyone. I also have tons of multi generational families (including my parents who have my sisters family living with them)

One of my cousins married a nurse in August and they had an in person wedding with ~150 people. There were easily 10-12 people there over 75 including the preacher and one of the brides great grandparents on oxygen. There were also ~20 people from the hospital he works at in attendance, Doctors, nurses, etc.

One of the older folks ~ 95 used to be my family pastor and I even asked him (with my mask on) why he decided to come to the Wedding and he said "life must go on".

There could still be some privilege involved of course; but not the "working from home on our laptop privilege".

In fact I've noticed amongst folks I know the ones who are working from home are the ones still not going out much/ at all; like it's almost foreign for them to leave the house now. Vs all the essential workers who are like "well if I get it I'm most likely getting it from the 40+ hours I spent at work so I may as well do XYZ for a couple hours of fun per week"

-----------

Anyhow, it's just strange. When I read on here how cautious everyone's being I think "Longwaytogo your doing too much, need to be careful" but then when I see/hear/read what everyone in my real life is doing I think "well I'm doing less and being more careful than them at least"

Just a strange juxtaposition.

Your experience is what I see too (as opposed to the one you quoted). It's only the privileged who are still sitting in their homes. The rest have been out for work and have resumed life (with varying sets of precautions).

Same here. Most of the people I know may have gotten a couple of weeks off in the spring during full shutdown but they've been back to work with kids back in school for months. They're taking reasonable precautions in public, but going about their lives pretty normally (work, school, church, family gatherings, etc).

Thank you both for chiming in; I assumed I wasn't the only one but I was beginning to wonder!!

Sure wish our schools would reopen :(

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4430 on: November 03, 2020, 07:29:28 AM »
Yep, everyone is going about their business as usual with varying levels of precautions.  I wonder if that's directly related to the USA getting 89k new cases yesterday and us having an official death toll of 237k?

Halloween was pretty dead in our neighborhood.  Most people just set up bowls instead of handing it out directly, although plenty of people were still passing out candy with no masks on.  We set up a table at the sidewalk with bags of candy.

Physicsteacher

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4431 on: November 03, 2020, 08:14:30 AM »
Quote
That's another thing that kills me; anytime someone questions masks/lockdowns/etc. everyone assumes they are some white trash southern Trump lover. I'm in Maryland and 95/100 people I know have voted democrat their whole lives and they are still having dinner with friends or trick or treating or whatever.  I understand that Trump has boggled the covid response big time but I don't get where everyone thinks the folks who are sick of the lockdown are automatically pro Trump; you can hate Trump with a burning passion and still want to go to a friends house; or love him and still be locked down like we were in April. People are allowed to reach their own life decisions without consulting the party they vote for.
I'm in California, and most of the people I know are democrats.  A metric ton of people I know are doing Halloween, having parties and get togethers, sometimes with masks, sometimes without.

I chalk it up to a great deal of privilege.  These folks don't live with elderly grandparents, they aren't essential workers, they don't work with sick people, they have health insurance, they are healthy, so "why should I really worry about COVID?"  Our COVID spikes, till now, have been in the north county "poor folks", the farm workers, the Latinos, not the middle class white folk.  Oh, we have a spike now in the college town, but hey they don't hang with college kids either.

Fully admit most folks in my circle are "privileged white people"; but the vast majority of my family are essential workers - construction (like 20 of us) , mechanics, police, firefighter, UPS driver, multiple nurses; and they're all out and about as much as anyone. I also have tons of multi generational families (including my parents who have my sisters family living with them)

One of my cousins married a nurse in August and they had an in person wedding with ~150 people. There were easily 10-12 people there over 75 including the preacher and one of the brides great grandparents on oxygen. There were also ~20 people from the hospital he works at in attendance, Doctors, nurses, etc.

One of the older folks ~ 95 used to be my family pastor and I even asked him (with my mask on) why he decided to come to the Wedding and he said "life must go on".

There could still be some privilege involved of course; but not the "working from home on our laptop privilege".

In fact I've noticed amongst folks I know the ones who are working from home are the ones still not going out much/ at all; like it's almost foreign for them to leave the house now. Vs all the essential workers who are like "well if I get it I'm most likely getting it from the 40+ hours I spent at work so I may as well do XYZ for a couple hours of fun per week"

-----------

Anyhow, it's just strange. When I read on here how cautious everyone's being I think "Longwaytogo your doing too much, need to be careful" but then when I see/hear/read what everyone in my real life is doing I think "well I'm doing less and being more careful than them at least"

Just a strange juxtaposition.

Your experience is what I see too (as opposed to the one you quoted). It's only the privileged who are still sitting in their homes. The rest have been out for work and have resumed life (with varying sets of precautions).

Same here. Most of the people I know may have gotten a couple of weeks off in the spring during full shutdown but they've been back to work with kids back in school for months. They're taking reasonable precautions in public, but going about their lives pretty normally (work, school, church, family gatherings, etc).

Thank you both for chiming in; I assumed I wasn't the only one but I was beginning to wonder!!

Sure wish our schools would reopen :(

LWTG, your experience is probably not atypical of essential workers in the U.S., but it isn't universal.

DH is an electrician. He was home for a month during late March and April; while our state deemed construction essential, roughly half of his company's job sites lie on the other side of the border in a state that shut them down. The bosses asked for volunteers to go on furlough since there suddenly wasn't enough work to go around. (He never did end up getting any unemployment since the crush of newly out of work folks utterly overwhelmed the system for applying.)

Our household members are going out when we must, but we're still pretty damn strict about minimizing our exposures. DH is at work 40 hours a week, and I go to campus twice a week for the one class I'm taking that can't be done from home. Our roommate is doing school from home. I had a couple of doctors' appointments in July since delaying a checkup with my oncologist forever didn't seem prudent, and I lost a filling so a dentist visit became imperative. We started getting curbside takeout ~1x per week in late June, and we still primarily use curbside grocery pickup, with a household member venturing into a store once every few weeks for some desired items that aren't otherwise available. We've gotten our flu shots and voted. We wear cloth masks on walks around our neighborhood and on the trails in a nearby park, but stick to our backyard and basement for the sorts of vigorous exercise that don't work well with face coverings.

We've made a few allowances for special occasions, but not many. We did go watch the city's fireworks display in July, masked and inside a car. I answered our health department's call for volunteers and worked registration at one day of drive through COVID testing in September. For Roommate's birthday last month, we got takeout from a restaurant that required going inside for pickup. Our city council approved trick or treating with precautions so I set up treats out in front of our house, and we sat, masked, on the porch a few meters away and greeted everyone from a distance. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm sick of being locked down. I miss my weekly volunteering gig. I miss being able to spontaneously stop for a hot chocolate on my walk to school and getting to browse the specials at Aldi. I miss having study groups and chatting with friends in the hallways after class rather than scheduling awkward Zoom meetings. I really wish I'd gone to visit my parents last Christmas rather than planning a visit for May. I cried about missing my students' graduation. However, there are enough people I love deeply who would be at serious risk if they caught COVID that I believe I have a duty to avoid endangering the vulnerable if it can be avoided.

I get that individuals may need to make different choices in order to balance their own physical and mental well-being with the needs of others, but since I can do this, even though it is hard, I should.

wenchsenior

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4432 on: November 03, 2020, 08:20:40 AM »
Yep, everyone is going about their business as usual with varying levels of precautions.  I wonder if that's directly related to the USA getting 89k new cases yesterday and us having an official death toll of 237k?

Halloween was pretty dead in our neighborhood.  Most people just set up bowls instead of handing it out directly, although plenty of people were still passing out candy with no masks on.  We set up a table at the sidewalk with bags of candy.

Quite dead here also, in the middle of deep-red Trump country.  Of course, this could be related to the fact that our city of ~100,00 is recording 300-600 new cases per day for weeks, and deaths nearly every single day, and our hospitals are under strain and have had to have support staff sent in from other cities. 

DadJokes

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4433 on: November 03, 2020, 08:40:32 AM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Could also be the folks who are getting on with living their lives don't speak up on threads like this or the "Covid Holiday Guilt" threads and such because they don't feel like being berated and called Trumpers and what not.

Yep.

It's not like people in this forum (or the internet in general) are willing to have an respectful discussion with people that come to different conclusions.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4434 on: November 03, 2020, 08:49:33 AM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Could also be the folks who are getting on with living their lives don't speak up on threads like this or the "Covid Holiday Guilt" threads and such because they don't feel like being berated and called Trumpers and what not.

Yep.

It's not like people in this forum (or the internet in general) are willing to have an respectful discussion with people that come to different conclusions.

I've concluded that the risks of driving drunk are worth the potential benefits for me.  Let's have a respectful discussion about my choices.

DadJokes

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4435 on: November 03, 2020, 08:50:50 AM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Could also be the folks who are getting on with living their lives don't speak up on threads like this or the "Covid Holiday Guilt" threads and such because they don't feel like being berated and called Trumpers and what not.

Yep.

It's not like people in this forum (or the internet in general) are willing to have an respectful discussion with people that come to different conclusions.

I've concluded that the risks of driving drunk are worth the potential benefits for me.  Let's have a respectful discussion about my choices.

^ For example

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4436 on: November 03, 2020, 08:57:56 AM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Could also be the folks who are getting on with living their lives don't speak up on threads like this or the "Covid Holiday Guilt" threads and such because they don't feel like being berated and called Trumpers and what not.

Yep.

It's not like people in this forum (or the internet in general) are willing to have an respectful discussion with people that come to different conclusions.

I've concluded that the risks of driving drunk are worth the potential benefits for me.  Let's have a respectful discussion about my choices.

^ For example

Oh, you're unwilling to have a respectful conversation with someone who has come to different conclusions?

Huh.

It's almost like you feel that it's unreasonable to recklessly endanger others.  How disrespectful.  I just don't feel like being berated any more - why can't I simply drive drunk in peace?  Guess I'll lament that there aren't many places on the internet I can go to joke and talk about my drunk driving conclusions with a more supportive group of people.

mizzourah2006

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4437 on: November 03, 2020, 08:59:58 AM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Could also be the folks who are getting on with living their lives don't speak up on threads like this or the "Covid Holiday Guilt" threads and such because they don't feel like being berated and called Trumpers and what not.

Yep.

It's not like people in this forum (or the internet in general) are willing to have an respectful discussion with people that come to different conclusions.

I've concluded that the risks of driving drunk are worth the potential benefits for me.  Let's have a respectful discussion about my choices.

troll much? I can't help but think the people that are this aggressive are actually the most pissed about the actual situation and they just like to make other people feel bad/miserable as well. I know my brother-in-law was insufferable about this stuff when his business got shut down. He was basically rooting for "fat Trumper hillbilly's" to get the virus and die.

DadJokes

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4438 on: November 03, 2020, 09:04:04 AM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Could also be the folks who are getting on with living their lives don't speak up on threads like this or the "Covid Holiday Guilt" threads and such because they don't feel like being berated and called Trumpers and what not.

Yep.

It's not like people in this forum (or the internet in general) are willing to have an respectful discussion with people that come to different conclusions.

I've concluded that the risks of driving drunk are worth the potential benefits for me.  Let's have a respectful discussion about my choices.

^ For example

Oh, you're unwilling to have a respectful conversation with someone who has come to different conclusions?

Huh.

It's almost like you feel that it's unreasonable to recklessly endanger others.  How disrespectful.  I just don't feel like being berated any more - why can't I simply drive drunk in peace?  Guess I'll lament that there aren't many places on the internet I can go to joke and talk about my drunk driving conclusions with a more supportive group of people.

You're drawing a false dichotomy in which there is no middle ground. It proves my point that you believe even a slight variance from your idea is the equivalent of drunk driving.

Longwaytogo

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4439 on: November 03, 2020, 09:09:24 AM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Could also be the folks who are getting on with living their lives don't speak up on threads like this or the "Covid Holiday Guilt" threads and such because they don't feel like being berated and called Trumpers and what not.

Yep.

It's not like people in this forum (or the internet in general) are willing to have an respectful discussion with people that come to different conclusions.

I've concluded that the risks of driving drunk are worth the potential benefits for me.  Let's have a respectful discussion about my choices.

^ For example

Oh, you're unwilling to have a respectful conversation with someone who has come to different conclusions?

Huh.

It's almost like you feel that it's unreasonable to recklessly endanger others.  How disrespectful.  I just don't feel like being berated any more - why can't I simply drive drunk in peace?  Guess I'll lament that there aren't many places on the internet I can go to joke and talk about my drunk driving conclusions with a more supportive group of people.

Start a drunk driving thread if you want then.

This ones about Covid.

Sanitary Engineer

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4440 on: November 03, 2020, 09:11:35 AM »
I am strongly in the "work from home on my laptop" category, with a SAHM and three kids not in daycare.  We leave the house everyday on foot to walk the neighborhood.  Trick or Treating was even slower than usual, we had some "candy poopers" set up, mostly bowls on the porch and a few people handing out candy with masks on.  It seem like a safe activity to us, we were only within 6 feet of people for 1 minute or less and everyone wore a mask. We go to stores pretty normally for us, just with masks on.
As sort of an aside on the mask conversation - why is being required to wear a mask different than "shirt and shoes required" or requiring women to wear torso coverings in public?  I am fully willing to believe that covering my mouth is about as polite as covering my penis, just as I believe that there are appropriate situations in which to not wear a mask and to not wear bottoms.

Closing places where people congregate only makes sense to me in the context trying to reduce strain on Hospitals.  I think of conflicting priorities here and the greatest being something mustachians have taught me to appreciate the most. Financial Freedom.  So called essential workers strike me as people in the most vulnerable work situation.  Low wage, unsecure employment.  Food workers, emergency personnel, nurses, child care providers, teachers, are we expected to believe that these people can choose to stay home from their jobs and not get paid if they deem the risk to their health too large?  Are they not in fact forced to work in an unsafe environment? 

When I write the words this way I realize that the answer is "yes".  People who do not have financial liberty are often forced to work in an unsafe environment.  The ultimate barrier to workplace danger would be fully informed, financially free employees.  And we fall back into debating the risks associated with the quickly becoming common virus in relation to the other common risks we accept without concern.

Covid-19 is scary because it is new and it could be very dangerous, like polio was.  But we have familiar risks that are very dangerous, even more dangerous than polio.  Risks like increasing the levels of carbon dioxide, water, and methane in the atmosphere.

edited to remove "low skill" as an adjective describing nurses, emergency workers and teachers, all highly skilled people.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 09:25:21 AM by Sanitary Engineer »

mizzourah2006

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4441 on: November 03, 2020, 09:13:39 AM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Could also be the folks who are getting on with living their lives don't speak up on threads like this or the "Covid Holiday Guilt" threads and such because they don't feel like being berated and called Trumpers and what not.

Yep.

It's not like people in this forum (or the internet in general) are willing to have an respectful discussion with people that come to different conclusions.

I've concluded that the risks of driving drunk are worth the potential benefits for me.  Let's have a respectful discussion about my choices.

^ For example

Oh, you're unwilling to have a respectful conversation with someone who has come to different conclusions?

Huh.

It's almost like you feel that it's unreasonable to recklessly endanger others.  How disrespectful.  I just don't feel like being berated any more - why can't I simply drive drunk in peace?  Guess I'll lament that there aren't many places on the internet I can go to joke and talk about my drunk driving conclusions with a more supportive group of people.

You're drawing a false dichotomy in which there is no middle ground. It proves my point that you believe even a slight variance from your idea is the equivalent of drunk driving.

Even if we acknowledge this as a fair comparison the analogy isn't purely dichotomous. It's more like this.

- no alcohol at all before driving = only leaving your home when absolutely necessary
- a beer = wearing a mask when out and limiting social contact
- 2 beers = wearing a mask when out and going to restaurants, with distancing, etc. or small gatherings with others very occassionally
- 18 beers = ignoring all suggestions such as masks, social distancing, parties, and carrying on life as usual

According to Guitar if you have the rough equivalent of a beer and drive home you are the just as bad as the person that drinks a case and drives home. This of course ignores the people that need to be out in the first place for a job, or schooling, etc.....I guess they are just being forced to drink a case of beer and drive home every night?

mathlete

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4442 on: November 03, 2020, 09:15:32 AM »
Most people have the incorrect take regarding the dichotomy between privileged white collar workers and essential workers. This was true months ago and it's true today.

Broke: "White collar workers who can WFH are out of touch. Not everyone has that luxury. They have to work and they have to be out in public. Therefore making any accommodations for this pandemic is silly.

Woke: "White collar workers are in a unique position to reduce their contact with society at large and bring the reproduction rate of the virus down to sub 1 levels. This protects not only themselves, but the essential workers who have no choice but to expose themselves to more risk."

My god, we're nearly back up to 1K deaths a day in the US. Excess mortality has persisted for 30 straight weeks. Life insurers are missing earnings. Cases are up. Hospitalizations are up. This is real. It's still here. It's still bad. And most importantly of all, there are examples of places doing a better job of managing it than the US has.

If you want to go out to eat at a sit down restaurant, then do it. But you're doing it because you want to and you're over it. That's it. There is no grander story to tell about the inevitability of the virus or the futility of precautions. You just want to go to Applebees. That's fine.

fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4443 on: November 03, 2020, 10:24:35 AM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Could also be the folks who are getting on with living their lives don't speak up on threads like this or the "Covid Holiday Guilt" threads and such because they don't feel like being berated and called Trumpers and what not.

Yep.

It's not like people in this forum (or the internet in general) are willing to have an respectful discussion with people that come to different conclusions.

I've concluded that the risks of driving drunk are worth the potential benefits for me.  Let's have a respectful discussion about my choices.

^ For example

Oh, you're unwilling to have a respectful conversation with someone who has come to different conclusions?

Huh.

It's almost like you feel that it's unreasonable to recklessly endanger others.  How disrespectful.  I just don't feel like being berated any more - why can't I simply drive drunk in peace?  Guess I'll lament that there aren't many places on the internet I can go to joke and talk about my drunk driving conclusions with a more supportive group of people.

You're drawing a false dichotomy in which there is no middle ground. It proves my point that you believe even a slight variance from your idea is the equivalent of drunk driving.

Even if we acknowledge this as a fair comparison the analogy isn't purely dichotomous. It's more like this.

- no alcohol at all before driving = only leaving your home when absolutely necessary
- a beer = wearing a mask when out and limiting social contact
- 2 beers = wearing a mask when out and going to restaurants, with distancing, etc. or small gatherings with others very occassionally
- 18 beers = ignoring all suggestions such as masks, social distancing, parties, and carrying on life as usual

According to Guitar if you have the rough equivalent of a beer and drive home you are the just as bad as the person that drinks a case and drives home. This of course ignores the people that need to be out in the first place for a job, or schooling, etc.....I guess they are just being forced to drink a case of beer and drive home every night?

Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

GuitarStv

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4444 on: November 03, 2020, 10:40:08 AM »
I'm still amazed at the difference in attitudes by the majority of this Forum compared to the majority of people I know in real life. Just for example seemingly 80% of the people I know did some type of Halloween celebrations/trick or treating/dinners/parties etc. this weekend.

Could also be the folks who are getting on with living their lives don't speak up on threads like this or the "Covid Holiday Guilt" threads and such because they don't feel like being berated and called Trumpers and what not.

Yep.

It's not like people in this forum (or the internet in general) are willing to have an respectful discussion with people that come to different conclusions.

I've concluded that the risks of driving drunk are worth the potential benefits for me.  Let's have a respectful discussion about my choices.

^ For example

Oh, you're unwilling to have a respectful conversation with someone who has come to different conclusions?

Huh.

It's almost like you feel that it's unreasonable to recklessly endanger others.  How disrespectful.  I just don't feel like being berated any more - why can't I simply drive drunk in peace?  Guess I'll lament that there aren't many places on the internet I can go to joke and talk about my drunk driving conclusions with a more supportive group of people.

You're drawing a false dichotomy in which there is no middle ground. It proves my point that you believe even a slight variance from your idea is the equivalent of drunk driving.

Even if we acknowledge this as a fair comparison the analogy isn't purely dichotomous. It's more like this.

- no alcohol at all before driving = only leaving your home when absolutely necessary
- a beer = wearing a mask when out and limiting social contact
- 2 beers = wearing a mask when out and going to restaurants, with distancing, etc. or small gatherings with others very occassionally
- 18 beers = ignoring all suggestions such as masks, social distancing, parties, and carrying on life as usual

According to Guitar if you have the rough equivalent of a beer and drive home you are the just as bad as the person that drinks a case and drives home. This of course ignores the people that need to be out in the first place for a job, or schooling, etc.....I guess they are just being forced to drink a case of beer and drive home every night?

Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

That's not at all what I said.

I have no issue with people doing essential things (work / groceries).  Everyone has to do these things (or at least I certainly do).

I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

These are the behaviours I'd compare to drunk driving - the ones where you risk the lives of others out of boredom.

fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4445 on: November 03, 2020, 10:52:10 AM »

Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

That's not at all what I said.

I have no issue with people doing essential things (work / groceries).  Everyone has to do these things (or at least I certainly do).

I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

These are the behaviours I'd compare to drunk driving - the ones where you risk the lives of others out of boredom.

The thing is you can't even respond to the fact that you are accusing others of the equivalent of drunk driving, or acknowledge that your tolerance is different than others without inserting your morality on what's right v wrong into other people's lives. There is never an excuse for drunk driving. There are however many excuses for going out, and they might be necessary in that person's eyes, while not in yours. I am not going to PM you before I decide whether I should leave the house or not. I'm not even going to contact my local politician.

Its like the person above who said that they went to a public celebration and stayed in their car with mask on. Or the person on my FB feed who stated that they were volunteering to drive others to the polls today, but then had to add that they're "masking and using ventilation" in their vehicles (before someone could possibly chime in that it might not be safe). Score +1 for the woke police! Dear god, people have become insufferable.

charis

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4446 on: November 03, 2020, 11:03:41 AM »
My children have to attend daycare certain days a week - in masks unless outside. Because their parents have to work.  We also participated in outdoor, no contact trick or treating in masks on our block. My kids have been playing occasionally outside with the same set of neighbor kids (also in school/daycare) since late spring. It's probably time for an internet morality screening.

frugalnacho

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4447 on: November 03, 2020, 11:06:18 AM »

Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

That's not at all what I said.

I have no issue with people doing essential things (work / groceries).  Everyone has to do these things (or at least I certainly do).

I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

These are the behaviours I'd compare to drunk driving - the ones where you risk the lives of others out of boredom.

The thing is you can't even respond to the fact that you are accusing others of the equivalent of drunk driving, or acknowledge that your tolerance is different than others without inserting your morality on what's right v wrong into other people's lives. There is never an excuse for drunk driving. There are however many excuses for going out, and they might be necessary in that person's eyes, while not in yours. I am not going to PM you before I decide whether I should leave the house or not. I'm not even going to contact my local politician.

Its like the person above who said that they went to a public celebration and stayed in their car with mask on. Or the person on my FB feed who stated that they were volunteering to drive others to the polls today, but then had to add that they're "masking and using ventilation" in their vehicles (before someone could possibly chime in that it might not be safe). Score +1 for the woke police! Dear god, people have become insufferable.

So is it cool for me to drink 3 beers then go for a drive?

fuzzy math

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4448 on: November 03, 2020, 11:09:15 AM »

Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

That's not at all what I said.

I have no issue with people doing essential things (work / groceries).  Everyone has to do these things (or at least I certainly do).

I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

These are the behaviours I'd compare to drunk driving - the ones where you risk the lives of others out of boredom.

The thing is you can't even respond to the fact that you are accusing others of the equivalent of drunk driving, or acknowledge that your tolerance is different than others without inserting your morality on what's right v wrong into other people's lives. There is never an excuse for drunk driving. There are however many excuses for going out, and they might be necessary in that person's eyes, while not in yours. I am not going to PM you before I decide whether I should leave the house or not. I'm not even going to contact my local politician.

Its like the person above who said that they went to a public celebration and stayed in their car with mask on. Or the person on my FB feed who stated that they were volunteering to drive others to the polls today, but then had to add that they're "masking and using ventilation" in their vehicles (before someone could possibly chime in that it might not be safe). Score +1 for the woke police! Dear god, people have become insufferable.

So is it cool for me to drink 3 beers then go for a drive?

I've seen you falling prey to the same logistical fallacy on the forums lately too, so I'm not surprised you chimed in. Go for it. But before you do that could you please berate guitar steve for going to the grocery store? He admitted up thread that he did it, and someone somewhere is sure to disapprove of his choices.

mizzourah2006

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Re: How long can we wait while flattening the curve?
« Reply #4449 on: November 03, 2020, 11:14:47 AM »

Thank you for this. I was pretty peeved reading this above. How amusing that guitar steve thinks that me being amongst the public (at my job at a hospital) and choosing to select my own groceries (instead of ignoring that I would otherwise be asking a lower paid individual to accept that risk for me), is akin to drunk driving. There really is no hope for bridging a gap with some people.

That's not at all what I said.

I have no issue with people doing essential things (work / groceries).  Everyone has to do these things (or at least I certainly do).

I take issue with people who are fucking around because they're bored.  The 'getting on with our lives' crowd.  Dining out is risky and stupid behaviour.  Going to a bar is risky and stupid.  Having a Halloween party is risky and stupid behaviour.  Visiting high risk individuals without quarantining for a couple weeks prior is risky and stupid.  Not wearing a mask (or pulling your mask down so that your nose remains uncovered) when inside a grocery store or building is risky and stupid.  Going to church (or packing yourself into a building with many other people for any non-essential reason) is risky and stupid.

These are the behaviours I'd compare to drunk driving - the ones where you risk the lives of others out of boredom.

The thing is you can't even respond to the fact that you are accusing others of the equivalent of drunk driving, or acknowledge that your tolerance is different than others without inserting your morality on what's right v wrong into other people's lives. There is never an excuse for drunk driving. There are however many excuses for going out, and they might be necessary in that person's eyes, while not in yours. I am not going to PM you before I decide whether I should leave the house or not. I'm not even going to contact my local politician.

Its like the person above who said that they went to a public celebration and stayed in their car with mask on. Or the person on my FB feed who stated that they were volunteering to drive others to the polls today, but then had to add that they're "masking and using ventilation" in their vehicles (before someone could possibly chime in that it might not be safe). Score +1 for the woke police! Dear god, people have become insufferable.

So is it cool for me to drink 3 beers then go for a drive?

That's a purely mathematical question. What's the ABV of the beers? What was the period of time you drank the beers in? How much do you weigh?

Here you can look up the legal limit in your state area and put the #s into this calculator and find out for yourself: https://www.clevelandclinic.org/health/interactive/alcohol_calculator.asp
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 11:20:36 AM by mizzourah2006 »