The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: happyuk on February 08, 2019, 01:46:42 PM
-
Have you ever unfairly encountered a bad rap for supposedly being cheap?
Many confuse being frugal with being miserly or mean-spirited, unfairly in my view. In actual fact (as we know well) the opposite is the usually the case.
In fact being frugal has meant that I have been in a MUCH better position to help others. When I encounter a friend in genuine need I will happily GIVE him or her small of amounts of money in a spirit of friendship (or my time or other form of assistance) rather than loan a large amount of money. Nobody likes money lenders after all.
Frugality means different things to its adherents, but the reasons almost invariably laudable. Some want to maximize the money they earn so that they can retire early, go on a sabbatical, provide for their children's education; some just hate waste while others view it as a means of liberating themselves from a wretched situation.
I've been made fun of for not owning a smart phone and criticized for not driving a souped-up new model of car (which I could afford, if the desire was there). Depending on who I am dealing with my reactions alternate between bored indifference or formidable opposition. Ice or iron! But underneath it all I really don't care and I sleep well.
How do you deal with others that just don't "get it" or even hate what you do?
-
I wouldn't say I've been "made fun of" the way people do to each other in grade school, but I get what you're saying. Here in the US I have definitely been scoffed at for not having a McMansion or a luxury car. Sadly most of it comes from extended family members who are flashy money types of people. It makes them feel good about themselves -- that they make sooooo much money that they can have these things and in their minds, I am less successful because I don't have these things. Bored indifference is a good way to put it. I ignore them/shrug it off or if I'm in a sarcastic mood I'll say "well cousin X, I'm just not as successful as you." Shuts them up bc they know I'm either (i) not impressed when I'm not responding about their Mercedes; or (ii) I'm mocking them when I put my own career down. Reality is in their heart of hearts, they know I make as much or more than them (as a single person -- while most of them are 2 working spouses). So I let them think I'm cheap or don't have good taste or whatever frankly bc I don't want them in my business. NO WAY am I going to share net worth or FI goals with people like that, nor will I discuss my investments.
-
I haven't encountered much criticism simply because I avoid people in the Big Spendy Lifestyle and have chosen to surround myself with people who have similar values and goals. Before I FIREd, I worked for a big organization which had people from a wide range of backgrounds, incomes and lifestyles. It didn't take long before the invites from those who ate lunch out everyday tapered off, and I found my tribe of fellow brown baggers in the lunchroom.
I'm working on resisting the temptation to judge others for their financial choices, too. I figure everyone acts in accordance with their values and if they value stuff more than time/freedom, well, that's their choice. But it felt good to walk out of the office for the last time knowing I was financially independent. Haven't heard a peep of criticism since!
-
You can't please everyone. People are free to think I'm cheap. I just stopped giving a shit long ago.
-
Them: Why don't you have The Thing??
Me: I don't care about The Thing.
Them: What? Why not? What do you mean??? -can't compute Otherness-
Me: -shrug- I'd rather have money than The Thing.
if it continues...
Them: It's only money, -or- Life is short -or- YOLO
Me: I'd rather be rich than act rich.*
*Only people on the level of Buffett or Gates can do both. Ironically, they both like to dress like Walmart-loving dads. Couldn't paste the pic, but BONUS: Buffett, Gates, and Ludacris TOGETHER.
https://www.businessinsider.com/warren-buffett-bill-gates-ludacris-photo-2011-6 (https://www.businessinsider.com/warren-buffett-bill-gates-ludacris-photo-2011-6)
-
So, there are usually small number of those types of comments that you get over and over, so coming up with a shut-them-up response is useful.
For the 'you should by X' comments, which I used to get a lot about my phone, 'how are you still using a flip phone, you really need to get yourself a smartphone', my standard response is 'why? what will happen if I don't?' I've never had anyone find something to say back to that.
For the 'life is too short, live a little', I haven't quite gotten one down I really like, but something like 'I literally don't have time to live any more than I already do until I can quit my job to free some up, which is why I'm trying to do that asap. life is to short to spend at a desk, I have way too much I want to do in this one short life we get.'. Or throw it back at them with something like, 'money isn't life, if you need to spend money to enjoy life you're missing the point.' Not sure, need to work on that one some more.
-
I wonder if you have to get to a certain income level to get comments on frugality. In my circles everyone tries to be frugal bc nobody is wealthy, really. I also live in a lower to medium cost of living area… Practically my whole state except for a few cities. Being cheap and frugal is way of life, if not a necessity around here.
-
Friend once told me “you have no Car Pride.”
Once I stopped laughing, I strongly agreed. The car is no reflection whatsoever of anything about me.
So now my spouse and I have this slogan. No Car Pride.
No Kitchen Pride. No lawn pride. No recent#fashion pride.
Make no mistake—our lives are luxurious and comfortable!
We are retired and spend 6 months each year in Europe. Occasionally driving a dented 15 year old car.
My friend is working and stressed and leases a $40,000 (?) SUV.
Own it. Celebrate it. Live yer life.
-
HenryDavid...love your post!
I’ve always just said, I like to spend my money on travel. But now I’m going to steal your lines.
-
Tell them you'd rather be retired at 40 with a flip phone than toiling away at 70 just so you can impress the financially clueless with the latest iWhatever?
-
Mainly by not giving a shit. But on the rare occasion someone says something my car, I say something like "No doubt. But it has been so nice not having a car payment these past few years. It has really given me a lot of flexibility." At that point they ruefully agree.
-
Friend once told me “you have no Car Pride.”
Once I stopped laughing, I strongly agreed. The car is no reflection whatsoever of anything about me.
I once told a co-worker bragging about his new Lexus, and haranguing me for driving a POS truck that I'd rather have the money to buy a fleet of Lexi for cash than have a new Lexus and years of debt payments just to have a shiny toy.
-
I don’t hang out with people like that. I live in a pretty low income neighborhood, and I just don’t hang out with people who define themselves by cars or houses or clothes.
-
Our friends have similar values. When I was working some living above their means but not the norm.
-
I just say I'm Dutch. And where I'm at in the US that means of Dutch decent and it's a local stereotypical thing based on whatever Dutch group settled in this area.
-
I proactively call myself frugal, and then am very generous with friends, family, & coworkers. I enjoy that it confuses them.
I don't really run into people criticizing my lifestyle. But if they did, I'd probably say, "Huh. That's a weird thing to say." Or maybe, "Hey, if you're more comfortable spending more, cool. We all have to find the right balance in our lives."
-
I proactively call myself frugal, and then am very generous with friends, family, & coworkers. I enjoy that it confuses them.
I don't really run into people criticizing my lifestyle. But if they did, I'd probably say, "Huh. That's a weird thing to say." Or maybe, "Hey, if you're more comfortable spending more, cool. We all have to find the right balance in our lives."
This. When people ask us why we don't buy or do X, we just respond that it isn't a priority for us. Of course, being happy can irritate other people, but in the moment, it tends to through them off. For anyone that insists, we usually just smile, nod and walk away.
-
I generally get all the shiny things, but free. I have very spendy friends that hand down things! I recently had a birthday and asked for a fitness tracker off Aliexpress for about $20 incl postage. Instead I got a last year model Garmin that a sister was given at work, didn't want and gave to brother, who upgraded somehow or other and gave to me for bday. Now I have a shiny thing! I have Smeg washer and dryers and Jamie Oliver cutlery and eygptian cotton sheets, and apple TV etc etc for nothing or next to nothing. I love other people's cast offs!
-
Used to be all our friends were careful with limited incomes, our entertainment was pretty cheap or free, and we hung out at each others places. Now its all "meet for coffee" by appointment, and overseas holidays, and how hard they all have to work. Im Fired, and frugal, and pretty lazy and happy. I try to keep my mouth shut, but do get a bit tired of comments about my dumb phone and old car.
Most I say is something like "its good to have choices about how we spend isnt it"
-
"But I don't like or want [the thing]", and if they ask more questions I elaborate on why - like, for cars it would be "I get really carsick, I don't like being in a car, I never learned how to drive, I'm an environmentalist, and I really like walking places". For smartphones, it would be "They're so big and clunky and breakable, and I don't like texting or using most apps". Once someone told me I should "treat myself" by going to restaurants, and I said something like "It's not a treat if you don't like restaurant food or the experience".
Offhand I can't think of anything I avoid solely for monetary reasons - that's pretty much always a secondary concern.
-
When I lived closer to NYC (back in the '90s), my co-workers all made around the same amount of money, around $100k. I was amazed when they all started buying houses at the $450k price point, and having a brand new Lexus was considered normal, even if it was usually an ES300/330 back then. People thought nothing of eating out for lunch every day, with $5 iced-coffees for dessert.
Now, I work in an office where people make around the same amount of money, but they all take pride in having paid-off cars, in some cases paid-off houses, and everyone brings a brown-bag lunch. One co-worker's car was totaled in a flood last year, and she was shopping around for a 'new' car. I'm into cars, so she would run some of them by me, but it was funny to hear her say how her husband wanted her to look at a car that cost $20k, and she said she couldn't bring herself to spend that kind of money on a car. She ended up with a Subaru, six or seven years old.
I'm sure being around all the glitz of NYC pushes some people toward trying to live that lifestyle, even if they can't really afford it.
-
I embrace my cheapness and don't give a hoot about what other people think about it. I'm the first person to accuse me of being cheap because it's true.
-
I just say with a straight face, "I have enough money that I no longer have to keep up appearances." It is true and it is a very good line.
-
Bitches gonna judge.
It has nothing to do with your frugality, that's just the obvious target to judge you about. If you weren't frugal, they would judge you for something else. If people really respect you, they don't judge you over inconsequential shit.
There is absolutely no way to stop someone from judging you, so don't bother wasting your energy worrying about how you will be judged.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you say because they don't actually care.
-
When I lived closer to NYC (back in the '90s), my co-workers all made around the same amount of money, around $100k. I was amazed when they all started buying houses at the $450k price point, and having a brand new Lexus was considered normal, even if it was usually an ES300/330 back then. People thought nothing of eating out for lunch every day, with $5 iced-coffees for dessert.
I would have loved to have bought real estate in NYC on any budget in the 90's :) 5x yearly income in NYC is not even remotely possible today. Of course they had no idea. They can keep their cars though.
-
Offhand I can't think of anything I avoid solely for monetary reasons - that's pretty much always a secondary concern.
This is the core of it. And when you lead with that, it shuts people up. It's much easier to scoff at "that's not worth it" or "I don't feel like spending the money" than "I don't actually want that."
My tactic is to either do that or lean into it. "Those shoes are looking a little ratty, eh?" "Oh yeah, I'll replace them when they have three or four more holes." If they're just casually ribbing, they'll laugh. If they're actively being a jerk, they'll walk away.
Not giving a fuck helps too. You only get a limited number of fucks to give over your lifetime, so you must spend them with care. (https://markmanson.net/not-giving-a-fuck)
-
How do you handle it? By absolutely, positively, not caring one bit. You will show confidence and people feed off that and respect it. The key is not to actually come off like a cheap ass, but instead, simply financially responsible.
-
Honestly, my problem isn't that I feel criticized. It's that I'm concerned for my friends.
I fervently wish that my friends/family would finally discover how much better it is to be frugal than spendy. When they make comments I never know what to say, because their comments reveal such ignorance about what truly makes people happy and I don't know how to be tactful about what I am really thinking. I care about these people.
Personally, it doesn't bother me one bit to be criticized for my frugal choices--in fact, when people notice these choices, I see it as a tremendous opportunity to quietly and gently (maybe?) influence them. But mostly it's a struggle to not just feel sad that people I care about are mis-prioritizing money. In the end, with some caveats, it's not simply neutral "different people make different choices with their money" territory--it's just not. People I truly love are making choices that I can see are clearly making their lives worse.
Anyway, when people criticize my frugal lifestyle, I get excited. Maybe they will see that there are different ways of doing things with money! In response to the criticisms, I try to be as diplomatic as possible and say little. I don't want to scare them away!
-
This whole post just seems foreign to me. People actually criticize you, like out loud, for being frugal? I don't think that has ever happened to me.
Or maybe it has and I just didn't notice, because I didn't care or I misunderstood their criticism as a compliment?
I live in a fancy house in a fancy neighborhood. We have two cars, one of which is electric. We take family vacations every year, my kids have new cell phones and fancy clothes, we're all in good healthy and reasonably well adjusted. For all intents and purposes, we look and act like a moderately successful upper middle class family, because we are. Who would possibly criticize us for being cheap?
Our regular family budget is also under $10k/year/person in a high cost of living area. These days it's just not that expensive to have fancy things and live a fancy life, if you're not being wasteful with your money. There are certainly people with more money than us, but I'm pretty sure even those people wouldn't consider my lifestyle impoverished.
-
I have had people judge me. One friend told me that my children wouldn't have any nice memories of childhood because I didn't have a car. My mother mocked me for not renovating my house to her liking. My ex's wife criticized that I didn't decorate my house for Easter like she did.
I just didn't give a shit. In fact, if anything, I got a good laugh at how ridiculous they were. Besides, out of all of us, I am the only one who reached FIRE. My friend is retiring next year at 65. My mother retired at 65. My ex's wife is 57 and retirement is nowhere in sight for her.
I'd rather be me. And you, OP, should just be glad that you are you.
-
I wonder if you have to get to a certain income level to get comments on frugality. In my circles everyone tries to be frugal bc nobody is wealthy, really. I also live in a lower to medium cost of living area… Practically my whole state except for a few cities. Being cheap and frugal is way of life, if not a necessity around here.
Or go to the opposite end of the spectrum. Very wealthy, old money is generally quite reserved and I can't imagine those that I have been around ever criticizing someone for not spending in an obvious enough way.
-
This whole post just seems foreign to me. People actually criticize you, like out loud, for being frugal? I don't think that has ever happened to me.
Or maybe it has and I just didn't notice, because I didn't care or I misunderstood their criticism as a compliment?
I live in a fancy house in a fancy neighborhood. We have two cars, one of which is electric. We take family vacations every year, my kids have new cell phones and fancy clothes, we're all in good healthy and reasonably well adjusted. For all intents and purposes, we look and act like a moderately successful upper middle class family, because we are. Who would possibly criticize us for being cheap?
Our regular family budget is also under $10k/year/person in a high cost of living area. These days it's just not that expensive to have fancy things and live a fancy life, if you're not being wasteful with your money. There are certainly people with more money than us, but I'm pretty sure even those people wouldn't consider my lifestyle impoverished.
It does happen, but I wouldn't say it's super frequent, and in my experience it's more confusion-based than actual malice. If someone was actually just being a jerk, I think I'd be way more likely to say something like "Well, I hope you like your job, you'll be doing it for a long time!". But I think you personally wouldn't see much of it unless you ditched the fancy house, two cars, fancy phones, fancy clothes, etc.
Some more examples: People have tried to convince me to get a smart phone several times before - the arguments for that one are pretty interesting. "But you can be connected to people all the time!" Like, why the hell would I want that, or for people to have the expectation of being able to reach me immediately? For about the first five or six years of our relationship, my in-laws and extended family on that side continuously tried to convince us to get drivers licenses so we could buy/rent cars. A number of people were absolutely horrified when we downsized to a smaller apartment (600 to 400 square feet), and tried to talk us out of it, despite that we'd already set it in motion - that one actually surprised me, because we were really excited about it.
-
From one of my subordinates: "Sir, you're a Jew with your money!" which was his playful way of criticizing my spending habits. He has/had a giant truck, an SUV, a dune buggy, and all the electronics. The Army also fired him last year for less than ethical activities so I care about his opinion even less than I did before.
All that to say I don't talk about personal finances in the workplace. I don't advertise it and it's nobody's business. The above remark originated from him seeing my used car and beans&rice lunches. All of my family are supportive of my intentions and some of them even jealous that my never working again by age 45 is a real possibility.
How do I handle people who criticize my frugal lifestyle? I laugh my way to the bank.
-
From one of my subordinates: "Sir, you're a Jew with your money!" which was his playful way of criticizing my spending habits.
I'd say that's more of a racist way of criticizing your spending habits.
-
From one of my subordinates: "Sir, you're a Jew with your money!" which was his playful way of criticizing my spending habits.
I'd say that's more of a racist was of criticizing your spending habits.
Anti-semitism is playful now?
-
It's happened on and off in my life. My siblings have always done it, but it's with a kind of grudging respect*, so it rolls off. If pressed these days, I mention that we have a lot of charities we like to support. Then I innocently ask them which ones are their favorites. Deflection for the win.
I will say that part of my game has always been to look the part without spending the money. Feels like winning to me. It also means that people tend not to pay any attention to my thriftiness, because it's subtle unless you know where to look.
*Some siblings are less grudging. My brother was buying a house and his loan fell apart right at closing, due to his broker's dickheadedness. He called me and I moved the entire purchase price into his account (we have the same bank) the next morning. A week later, I got it all back. Respect. And, a hint of pride on my part, because I trust him and I was glad I could help out. And don't get on my case for having a bunch of cash laying around. We had just flipped a house, and the money was for the next project, which we hadn't found yet. It also helps that my brother lives in a much lower COLA.
-
This whole post just seems foreign to me. People actually criticize you, like out loud, for being frugal? I don't think that has ever happened to me.
Or maybe it has and I just didn't notice, because I didn't care or I misunderstood their criticism as a compliment?
I live in a fancy house in a fancy neighborhood. We have two cars, one of which is electric. We take family vacations every year, my kids have new cell phones and fancy clothes, we're all in good healthy and reasonably well adjusted. For all intents and purposes, we look and act like a moderately successful upper middle class family, because we are. Who would possibly criticize us for being cheap?
Our regular family budget is also under $10k/year/person in a high cost of living area. These days it's just not that expensive to have fancy things and live a fancy life, if you're not being wasteful with your money. There are certainly people with more money than us, but I'm pretty sure even those people wouldn't consider my lifestyle impoverished.
Well, it happens to us, because we don't live the type of lifestyle that people could possibly confuse with a middle class lifestyle. People know that with my kind of job it's not possible that I earn a low wage. Family and friends are genuinely confused that we live very simply, very cheaply, have no car etc while we can't truly be poor. Some people kind of assume we're in debt, although of course they don't say those things out loud.
But people definitely ask me why we don't get a car (we don't even have driver's licenses) or why we live in a cheap house that is clearly a bit dated (although well maintained) or why I don't buy new clothes for every special occasion. I always tell them that there's no need to worry about my financial situation and that we just don't think these things are important / value for money, but buying less than you can afford to is an extremely weird idea to many people.
-
It's happened on and off in my life. My siblings have always done it, but it's with a kind of grudging respect*, so it rolls off. If pressed these days, I mention that we have a lot of charities we like to support. Then I inocently ask them which ones are their favorites. Deflection for the win.
I will say that part of my game has always been to look the part without spending the money. Feels like winning to me. It also means that people tend not to pay any attention to my thriftiness, because it's subtle unless you know where to look.
*Some siblings are less grudging. My brother was buying a house and his loan fell apart right at closing, due to his broker's dickheadedness. He called me and I moved the entire purchase price into his account (we have the same bank) the next morning. A week later, I got it all back. Respect. And, a hint of pride on my part, because I trust him and I was glad I could help out. And don't get on my for having a bunch of cash laying around. We had just flipped a house, and the money was for the next project, which we hadn't found yet. It also helps that my brother lives in a much lower COLA.
Would never criticize that! You did something very generous and kind! I am also sure your bond has strengthened because of your generosity and trust. Much respect to the both of you.
-
From one of my subordinates: "Sir, you're a Jew with your money!" which was his playful way of criticizing my spending habits.
I'd say that's more of a racist was of criticizing your spending habits.
Anti-semitism is playful now?
Yeah, comments like this, or the one about being Dutch just enforce negative stereotypes. It's not required.
-
From one of my subordinates: "Sir, you're a Jew with your money!" which was his playful way of criticizing my spending habits.
I'd say that's more of a racist was of criticizing your spending habits.
Anti-semitism is playful now?
I don't quite think this is anti-semitism. Garden variety racism or bigotry most definitely, but the antagonist in the OP is not calling for gas chambers here.
Not directing this against you @MrThatsDifferent, but I think it's a modern day phenomenon to judge every remark or act in very harsh terms. Newspaper headlines are a case in point. Not every disaster is a catastrophe, not every act of unkindness is the worst ever seen.
Probably not articulating my point clearly here, but I'd reserve the term anti-semite for acts calling for violence or oppression against Jews, not so much for calling someone a bit tight with their money.
Certainly doesn't mean the remark wasn't insensitive.
Apologies to anyone I've offended here.
-
I'd reserve the term anti-semite for acts calling for violence or oppression against Jews, not so much for calling someone a bit tight with their money.
He didn't call someone a bit tight with their money, he said they were like a Jew. That's textbook anti-semitism. It's perpetuating a negative stereotype about Jews, demonizing the entire class of people by associating a negative behavior with their ethnic group. It's exactly how the Nazis started, in the most literal sense in that it was exactly their first step toward sending rail cars full of people to concentration camps.
You don't have to lynch a black man or burn a cross to be racist. You can be racist in big ways and small ways.
-
I'd reserve the term anti-semite for acts calling for violence or oppression against Jews, not so much for calling someone a bit tight with their money.
He didn't call someone a bit tight with their money, he said they were like a Jew. That's textbook anti-semitism. It's perpetuating a negative stereotype about Jews, demonizing the entire class of people by associating a negative behavior with their ethnic group. It's exactly how the Nazis started, in the most literal sense in that it was exactly their first step toward sending rail cars full of people to concentration camps.
You don't have to lynch a black man or burn a cross to be racist. You can be racist in big ways and small ways.
Did you miss the part where I called it racist?
It's a bad ethnic joke, it's over the top to equate it to nazism.
-
To the extent that I can, I cut people like that out of my life. Most of my friends don't spend money on junk they don't need, and the rest aren't the kind to judge others.
However, if the questioner seems like they're asking in good faith, I might mention how consumerism is a trap -- advertisers are creating problems for their products to solve. I tell them I don't want to live my life reacting to others/being lead, and that I'd rather think for myself. I typically couch that in some polite-speak, though. ;)
-
I'd reserve the term anti-semite for acts calling for violence or oppression against Jews, not so much for calling someone a bit tight with their money.
He didn't call someone a bit tight with their money, he said they were like a Jew. That's textbook anti-semitism. It's perpetuating a negative stereotype about Jews, demonizing the entire class of people by associating a negative behavior with their ethnic group. It's exactly how the Nazis started, in the most literal sense in that it was exactly their first step toward sending rail cars full of people to concentration camps.
You don't have to lynch a black man or burn a cross to be racist. You can be racist in big ways and small ways.
Did you miss the part where I called it racist?
It's a bad ethnic joke, it's over the top to equate it to nazism.
I've read Mein Kampf. Hitler's references to what he thought the Jews were like are the very essence of that stereotype right from chapter one. They formed much of the basis for his reasoning why they should be exterminated later in the book. So, it's not over the top to equate it to nazism. Hitler said it himself.
-
I went for a walk with my dad the other day. He's a conventional early retiree (61). We passed a relative's home and he remarked on how happy they were with their new SUV. It did indeed look impressive. Very new. Like, 2022 new somehow. Really impressive.
I then asked, genuinely surprised, "They're still working?"
As my dad knows that I don't have to work anymore, and do it because I want to, he got my point. This couple is 67 and 61 and both partners have been working full-time since they were teenagers. And here they are. Still at the grind, with as far as I know no end in sight.
When people wonder why I drive a beater, or why I don't buy, well, basically anything, I try to briefly explain that I value time over goods.
I've gotten a few people to change their ways. A good friend of mine just transitioned from a Pixel to a flip phone. Of course he didn't think it possible. After all, how could I take pictures? How did I drive anywhere? How did I know where to go and at what time? I then pointed out to him that he was living more like a robot than a person. His phone told him, at various points in the day, what he had to do. 6 AM, get up for work. 6:30 AM, leave for work. 7:10 AM, pickup coffee order for coworkers. 11:00 AM on Saturday, mow the lawn. 7:00 PM, take out the garbage. He was merely the vessel through which the phone gave orders.
That seemed to hit home, and less than a month later he got a flip phone.
-
From one of my subordinates: "Sir, you're a Jew with your money!" which was his playful way of criticizing my spending habits.
I'd say that's more of a racist was of criticizing your spending habits.
Anti-semitism is playful now?
I don't quite think this is anti-semitism. Garden variety racism or bigotry most definitely, but the antagonist in the OP is not calling for gas chambers here.
Not directing this against you @MrThatsDifferent, but I think it's a modern day phenomenon to judge every remark or act in very harsh terms. Newspaper headlines are a case in point. Not every disaster is a catastrophe, not every act of unkindness is the worst ever seen.
Probably not articulating my point clearly here, but I'd reserve the term anti-semite for acts calling for violence or oppression against Jews, not so much for calling someone a bit tight with their money.
Certainly doesn't mean the remark wasn't insensitive.
Apologies to anyone I've offended here.
I'm not offended by you at all. It wasn't your comment. But it's totally anti-semitism. At one time, Jews were restricted to certain, inferior occupations. Money lending was one of them. That's where the stereotype comes from. They were forced into that position, and now they're stereotyped by the consequences of that position. Saying someone is like a Jew because they're associated with 'hoarding' money is much the same as saying women aren't as smart as men because men invented everything. It's a dumb comment however you slice it.
-
From one of my subordinates: "Sir, you're a Jew with your money!" which was his playful way of criticizing my spending habits.
I'd say that's more of a racist was of criticizing your spending habits.
Anti-semitism is playful now?
Yeah, comments like this, or the one about being Dutch just enforce negative stereotypes. It's not required.
No offense taken, as a Dutch person. Unlike the comment about Jews it's not a stereotype with a negative origin.
In the Dutch branch of Calvinism wastefulness is seen as a moral failure and it's no coincidence that our word for debt is the same as the word for guilt in the criminal sense.
While few people are still very religious and consumer culture has influenced us, those values still exist up to this date and we perceive them as positive, not negative. Even spendypants people are more likely to spend money on an expensive house (a 'sensible' purchase) rather than something flashy like designer clothes ( a more wasteful purchase) and bringing your own lunch to work is very normal.
-
I'd reserve the term anti-semite for acts calling for violence or oppression against Jews, not so much for calling someone a bit tight with their money.
He didn't call someone a bit tight with their money, he said they were like a Jew. That's textbook anti-semitism. It's perpetuating a negative stereotype about Jews, demonizing the entire class of people by associating a negative behavior with their ethnic group. It's exactly how the Nazis started, in the most literal sense in that it was exactly their first step toward sending rail cars full of people to concentration camps.
You don't have to lynch a black man or burn a cross to be racist. You can be racist in big ways and small ways.
Godwin's Law alert!
Back to topic please!
-
It's happened on and off in my life. If pressed these days, I mention that we have a lot of charities we like to support. Then I innocently ask them which ones are their favorites. Deflection for the win.
Love this tactic! Very elegant. Nice job @Dicey.
I'm sure many co-workers wondered about me over the years but I only got a direct question one time, when someone asked me why I was driving such a crappy old car. I didn't have a good line ready, but I honestly responded that there were at least 10 other things I would rather spend money on than a fancy car. He didn't ask what the other things were, but that would have been an interesting conversation.
-
I've heard little comments from a couple of my family members about me being "cheap". It's few and far between but it does happen. Generally, it's when the subject of my 15 year old vehicle comes up. (granted I also have a 6 year old sedan that doesn't get driven much in the crappy winter weather as it is my "fun", reliable car while the beater is, well, a beater). I've learned to just let it roll off my shoulder, and almost take it as a badge of honor now.
RE: The Dutch thing, there are a lot of families in my region of the US that have Dutch ancestors. They generally tend to be very good with their money.
-
I minimized getting called out by moving out to the sticks, instead of a cookie cutter development. We have some eccentrics on our street, so I don't stand out. :)
My sister is the only one who still gives me a hard time. She's made fun of my Honda's, and that I don't spend much money on surface things. She makes imo, frequent bad financial decisions. She frequently says she's be working until she is at least 82 (student loans for her son). I will be retiring in a few months at 58. As just one small example: At Christmas, she dropped $200 on small gifts for this family game we played. Putting in small candy bars instead of larger gift cards would have made it just as fun. The fun part is watching the small kids get really excited.
In my garden, I have the quote "let your life speak". Its a Quaker saying. I don't need to convince anyone of anything. I choose my possessions carefully and only when I'm convinced there is utility to me.
-
My reply:
"Yeah, but do you have nearly a half million in debt?
No?
Well neither do I anymore"
-
Godwin's Law alert!
I was merely stating that promulgating negative stereotypes about Jews is the literal definition of anti-semitism. Godwin's law is about logical overreach, but there is no logical overreach in highlighting the literal definition of words. I did not equate it to Nazism, as marty did, but to anti-semitism.
"Godwin's Law alert!" is something you say when someone online makes a logically incoherent comparison between the topic at hand and Nazis. This, however, was literally a discussion about hating Jews, and I just reminded the poster that this is textbook anti-semitism. You wouldn't shout "Godwin's Law!" in the middle of a discussion about Mein Kampf, would you? That's literally the topic at hand.
Don't get so wrapped up in what you think is a clever neologism that you misapply it when you get confused about the issue under discussion.
-
To OP's question- Perhaps your doing something for this to be happening. I did not read all the responses so maybe you discussed it but i am being serious when I say I have never been criticized but actually the opposite. Maybe because I was 50 it wasn't such a big deal BUT in my area , size of homes, The spending etc... I am surely against the grain. I honestly get a feeling that more people wish they had better control in there life when it comes to just applying some practical habits to making their life easier when in fact its there making most likely the wrong assumption of what there friends would think of them if they became more responsible.
-
Hi soccerluv, I probably didn't make myself too clear in the original post.
This is not something that's happened frequently to me. And like you say, most people are positive about it. But there have been instances where I have been berated for not buying shit that I don't need - smartphones for example. Those types of people I tend not to cultivate as friends anyway, so it's never something that has happened often.
-
I had actually forgotten that we went through this when we retired at 58 and downsized our house to a 1400 sq ft 1950’s ranch right in town walking distance to many places. We didn’t need a big house and my husband remodeled it himself. They thought we should not do either thing and left me a message at work when they knew I wouldn’t be there. Yeah I should keep working in order to have a big house-not! They were 10 years older and inherited money so bought a 3000 sq ft home and rented out there other house. Our friendship didn’t survive.
-
I find that people who know me as "no frills" generally respect my financial situation. If they question why I don't buy something, I just explain how I don't see the value in it. Now, I have gotten ribbed by friends or coworkers a few times for my car choices, to which I've variously replied, "My car is never going to be as shitty as your car payment," and, "Let's log into your 401k so I can get a good laugh too."
-
I find that people who know me as "no frills" generally respect my financial situation. If they question why I don't buy something, I just explain how I don't see the value in it. Now, I have gotten ribbed by friends or coworkers a few times for my car choices, to which I've variously replied, "My car is never going to be as shitty as your car payment," and, "Let's log into your 401k so I can get a good laugh too."
Part of it is that I don't drive a shitty car. If I had a dime for every time someone envied either of our cars, only to find out that theirs is actually newer, they just aren't caring for it, I would put it in an ETF and be closer to fat FI.
-
I find that people who know me as "no frills" generally respect my financial situation. If they question why I don't buy something, I just explain how I don't see the value in it. Now, I have gotten ribbed by friends or coworkers a few times for my car choices, to which I've variously replied, "My car is never going to be as shitty as your car payment," and, "Let's log into your 401k so I can get a good laugh too."
Part of it is that I don't drive a shitty car. If I had a dime for every time someone envied either of our cars, only to find out that theirs is actually newer, they just aren't caring for it, I would put it in an ETF and be closer to fat FI.
Ha! Same here. DH drives a 2002 Ford F150. It has less than 90k miles on it and still looks great! Our biggest fear is that it will get stolen. That sucker is a reliable workhorse, and we hope to get at least another decade out of it. When we needed to haul some stuff 400 miles that needed to be protected, he bought an old, bleached out red fiberglass hi-top shell for $200 and painted it to match his truck. It's a sweet rig with a cute guy inside. Of course he does all the maintenance on our cars.
-
"My car is never going to be as shitty as your car payment," and, "Let's log into your 401k so I can get a good laugh too."
Lol, thank you, both those made me legit laugh out loud. I'm going to try to remember them.
-
I find that people who know me as "no frills" generally respect my financial situation. If they question why I don't buy something, I just explain how I don't see the value in it. Now, I have gotten ribbed by friends or coworkers a few times for my car choices, to which I've variously replied, "My car is never going to be as shitty as your car payment," and, "Let's log into your 401k so I can get a good laugh too."
Part of it is that I don't drive a shitty car. If I had a dime for every time someone envied either of our cars, only to find out that theirs is actually newer, they just aren't caring for it, I would put it in an ETF and be closer to fat FI.
omg this x1000. I rode in a co-worker's 2 year old SUV the other day...and it was an absolute disaster inside. Looked like a landfill. Same guy gets in my 15 year old Jeep and notes how ridiculously clean it is.
-
I find that people who know me as "no frills" generally respect my financial situation. If they question why I don't buy something, I just explain how I don't see the value in it. Now, I have gotten ribbed by friends or coworkers a few times for my car choices, to which I've variously replied, "My car is never going to be as shitty as your car payment," and, "Let's log into your 401k so I can get a good laugh too."
Part of it is that I don't drive a shitty car. If I had a dime for every time someone envied either of our cars, only to find out that theirs is actually newer, they just aren't caring for it, I would put it in an ETF and be closer to fat FI.
omg this x1000. I rode in a co-worker's 2 year old SUV the other day...and it was an absolute disaster inside. Looked like a landfill. Same guy gets in my 15 year old Jeep and notes how ridiculously clean it is.
Aha -- disconnect on the word "shitty". When I was called out on my "shitty car" by a co-worker years ago, it was because it was an older econo-hatch, rather than a luxuromobile. My car was clean and all, just basic and cheap. Co-worker's exact words were "Why are you slumming around in that piece of shit? You can afford better."
-
I was at a championship event for a my kid's activity which I coach. A group of parents marveled/snickered at my iPhone 4s with the cracked screen when i couldn't pull up a photo as quickly as they could. One actually said, you know I have old discarded phones two years newer than that one!
At first it stung, but then I realized part of the reason I was able to spend 5-8 hours a week doing something really fun and meaningful with my kids (and theirs!) was because I didn't feel the need to buy the newest and latest and greatest when good enough will do. I smiled politely and kept my mind to myself. But that person's character was certainly diminished in my eyes.
-
This whole post just seems foreign to me. People actually criticize you, like out loud, for being frugal? I don't think that has ever happened to me.
This exactly. Only a very douchey group of people will genuinely criticize you for being frugal.
However, I have called people cheap when they screw other people over with their cheapness. IE, not paying rent to a roommate because they're being "frugal". They never drive anywhere because their shitty car literally can't make the trip. They go with you to a bar/restaurant and don't order anything because they're being "frugal", but then eat all the nachos/wings/fries.
Thank goodness I don't hang out with anyone like that anymore, but I used to see it all the time when I was in my early 20s and a lot of people in my social circle had shit jobs or were in grad school.
-
I just say I'm Dutch. And where I'm at in the US that means of Dutch decent and it's a local stereotypical thing based on whatever Dutch group settled in this area.
Ha - I know where you're from. I'm from there, too. I don't live there anymore, so such an excuse wouldn't mean much around here.
Personally, I've just reached the point where I don't care if they think I'm cheap. I've got my own life, and my own plan. The only real issues are whether they can influence my wife or kids with their attitudes, or whether I can avoid becoming preachy in return, which is always a struggle, and always unwelcome.
-
I really can't remember getting made fun of for being frugal. Aside from our cars (which are 8 and 12 years old), we really don't look any different from any of our friends. We have a gorgeous home with 8 acres and a creek (which we bought for less than 3x my annual salary). Our kids are well-dressed in mostly clean hand-me-downs (which look exactly the same as new clothes, once the new clothes have been used). We eat delicious home-cooked meals from fresh ingredients (which my wife plans ahead every 2 weeks to take advantage of sales and coupons at the grocery store). We have fancy smartphones (and a discount network provider). We don't eat out frequently, but we have four kids, so no one expects us to. I wouldn't even know how to respond to a comment about being "cheap", but I'd probably take it as a compliment.
-
I have a slightly different perspective here. I can’t say that I’m really criticized for my spending habits, or if I am it’s subtle and infrequent enough that I can’t recall the occasion. Many of my friends remark that I’m “good with money” so I’ve decided to make the choice to bring up frugality and conscious spending in casual conversation whenever it applies. I like to weave environmentalism in there too. I got almost all of my furniture at estate sales or off of craigslist/FB marketplace, and I’ll be the first to bring that up when someone compliments my home. I’ll say “thanks, I found that at an estate sale for $40. Even a cheap ikea version would be several hundred dollars and it would have been made in a factory with a lot of harmful glues and synthetic stuff.” Before I finally replaced my 14 year old car, if anyone would comment about it I’d say “Yeah, I’ll have to replace it one of these days before it starts needing costly repairs but I bought it 9.5 years ago for $4,000. I’m trying to get to 10 years so I can brag about spending $400/year on my car. Some people spend that much every month on their car payment.” When I decline an invitation to a restaurant I’ll casually add “I’m trying to spend less on restaurants and cook more at home right now. It’s healthier, and I’ve decided to prioritize saving up for a trip to XYZ next year.” Every Christmas and birthday I make a point of always telling people that I already have every material thing I could possibly want and that I just want to spend time with them as my present. For my daughter I haven’t had such good luck curbing the stream of presents but I try to point out that she already has tons of toys she doesn’t use, but would love to go do XYZ with them to build lasting memories.
I figure, on any given day we receive hundreds of carefully crafted, subliminal messages that are pro-consumerism and equate happiness with purchases... love with spending. I like to be one happy voice advocating for the opposite. Showing off and bragging about our fancy, expensive belongings seems to be completely socially acceptable. Whereas talking about avoiding debt, budgeting and conscious spending is a little taboo. I’ve been pleasantly surprised how often my comments break the ice and open the door for others to talk about their financial realities with less embarrassment.
“Wow, you want to eat less at restaurants too? Cool, let’s pack a lunch and do a hike instead.”
“You’re considering a new car and worried about the payments? I get that. Have you considered saving the payment amount starting now to see how it feels? If you can do that while stretching your current car for another couple of years, you could probably find something nice for all cash.”
“The clutter is killing you too? I keep flirting with the idea of going full minimalist. There are a couple really cool blogs you should check out.”
-
You can't please everyone. People are free to think I'm cheap. I just stopped giving a shit long ago.
I love this comment.
I would add 2 things - where possible avoid people that have been seduced by the conspicuous consumption lifestyle.
Secondly, if you do get wound up by them, then use it for motivation (once retired you can send them pictures of your extended vacations, for them to view whilst slaving away at their desks... lol)
-
I find that people who know me as "no frills" generally respect my financial situation. If they question why I don't buy something, I just explain how I don't see the value in it. Now, I have gotten ribbed by friends or coworkers a few times for my car choices, to which I've variously replied, "My car is never going to be as shitty as your car payment," and, "Let's log into your 401k so I can get a good laugh too."
Part of it is that I don't drive a shitty car. If I had a dime for every time someone envied either of our cars, only to find out that theirs is actually newer, they just aren't caring for it, I would put it in an ETF and be closer to fat FI.
omg this x1000. I rode in a co-worker's 2 year old SUV the other day...and it was an absolute disaster inside. Looked like a landfill. Same guy gets in my 15 year old Jeep and notes how ridiculously clean it is.
Aha -- disconnect on the word "shitty". When I was called out on my "shitty car" by a co-worker years ago, it was because it was an older econo-hatch, rather than a luxuromobile. My car was clean and all, just basic and cheap. Co-worker's exact words were "Why are you slumming around in that piece of shit? You can afford better."
Yes. This is the attitude I was referencing. The people in question have never seen the inside of my car, though it's not a landfill. They just work in the same field I do, and know that I could afford something "nicer." Next to their 35-40k brand new cars, my 12 old econobox just seems an odd choice. :)
-
I find that people who know me as "no frills" generally respect my financial situation. If they question why I don't buy something, I just explain how I don't see the value in it. Now, I have gotten ribbed by friends or coworkers a few times for my car choices, to which I've variously replied, "My car is never going to be as shitty as your car payment," and, "Let's log into your 401k so I can get a good laugh too."
Part of it is that I don't drive a shitty car. If I had a dime for every time someone envied either of our cars, only to find out that theirs is actually newer, they just aren't caring for it, I would put it in an ETF and be closer to fat FI.
omg this x1000. I rode in a co-worker's 2 year old SUV the other day...and it was an absolute disaster inside. Looked like a landfill. Same guy gets in my 15 year old Jeep and notes how ridiculously clean it is.
Aha -- disconnect on the word "shitty". When I was called out on my "shitty car" by a co-worker years ago, it was because it was an older econo-hatch, rather than a luxuromobile. My car was clean and all, just basic and cheap. Co-worker's exact words were "Why are you slumming around in that piece of shit? You can afford better."
Yes. This is the attitude I was referencing. The people in question have never seen the inside of my car, though it's not a landfill. They just work in the same field I do, and know that I could afford something "nicer." Next to their 35-40k brand new cars, my 12 old econobox just seems an odd choice. :)
My 2007 Prius looks like shit, because I use it like a pickup truck. I carry chicken feed, lumber, potting soil, and trash to the dump (no curbside service in the boonies). It has dings and chips from hail damage, a dented hood from a collision with a deer, a broken bumper from a raccoon incident (patched with zip-ties), and it hasn't been washed in, oh, about 5 years, because we live on a dirt road and washing cars is pointless. But I keep the oil changed and the tires rotated and it's still running nice and smooth after 220,000 miles. Importantly, I tie 0% of my self-worth to my car's appearance, and view it only as a convenient tool for modern life.
-
My 2007 Prius looks like shit, because I use it like a pickup truck. I carry chicken feed, lumber, potting soil, and trash to the dump (no curbside service in the boonies). It has dings and chips from hail damage, a dented hood from a collision with a deer, a broken bumper from a raccoon incident (patched with zip-ties), and it hasn't been washed in, oh, about 5 years, because we live on a dirt road and washing cars is pointless. But I keep the oil changed and the tires rotated and it's still running nice and smooth after 220,000 miles. Importantly, I tie 0% of my self-worth to my car's appearance, and view it only as a convenient tool for modern life.
Wow, how big was that raccoon? Does "incident" mean something other than a collision?
-
My 2007 Prius looks like shit, because I use it like a pickup truck. I carry chicken feed, lumber, potting soil, and trash to the dump (no curbside service in the boonies). It has dings and chips from hail damage, a dented hood from a collision with a deer, a broken bumper from a raccoon incident (patched with zip-ties), and it hasn't been washed in, oh, about 5 years, because we live on a dirt road and washing cars is pointless. But I keep the oil changed and the tires rotated and it's still running nice and smooth after 220,000 miles. Importantly, I tie 0% of my self-worth to my car's appearance, and view it only as a convenient tool for modern life.
Wow, how big was that raccoon? Does "incident" mean something other than a collision?
LOL. It was probably a 20-lb raccoon, and I hit it doing 70 MPH on the interstate. I didn't want to use the word "collision" twice in a row so I called it an "incident" instead. "Accident" or "wreck" makes it sounds like the car might have slowed down. I can assure you that the raccoon had little effect on the car's momentum, but unfortunately the same could not be said for the bumper. (20 lbs of raccoon * 70 mph = 2400 foot-lbs of force)
-
It's my experience that it doesn't matter what you do in life, there will be someone to criticize you for it. So, might as well do whatever the fuck you want.
-
My 2007 Prius looks like shit, because I use it like a pickup truck. I carry chicken feed, lumber, potting soil, and trash to the dump (no curbside service in the boonies). It has dings and chips from hail damage, a dented hood from a collision with a deer, a broken bumper from a raccoon incident (patched with zip-ties), and it hasn't been washed in, oh, about 5 years, because we live on a dirt road and washing cars is pointless. But I keep the oil changed and the tires rotated and it's still running nice and smooth after 220,000 miles. Importantly, I tie 0% of my self-worth to my car's appearance, and view it only as a convenient tool for modern life.
Wow, how big was that raccoon? Does "incident" mean something other than a collision?
LOL. It was probably a 20-lb raccoon, and I hit it doing 70 MPH on the interstate. I didn't want to use the word "collision" twice in a row so I called it an "incident" instead. "Accident" or "wreck" makes it sounds like the car might have slowed down. I can assure you that the raccoon had little effect on the car's momentum, but unfortunately the same could not be said for the bumper. (20 lbs of raccoon * 70 mph = 2400 foot-lbs of force)
I hit a raccoon at ~60MPH in a small sedan. Damaged the fascia, radiator, and oil pan -- check engine light came on within seconds and I had to have it towed. I can't remember the exact amount, but insurance paid ~$2,500 for repairs.
-
I guess I "handle it" by not giving AF.
I drive a 99 Camry among a sea of leased shiny mobiles. We have no kids, don't go out to eat, turn down activities when it's not in the budget... but we aren't cheap-asses or obnoxious. I place my money where I see value. They seem to do the same - we just value different things. I certainly don't think less of them... so I guess I just assume they don't think less of me.
And if they do think we are obnoxious or think less of me... please refer to my initial statement. IDGAF.
-
My 2007 Prius looks like shit, because I use it like a pickup truck. I carry chicken feed, lumber, potting soil, and trash to the dump (no curbside service in the boonies). It has dings and chips from hail damage, a dented hood from a collision with a deer, a broken bumper from a raccoon incident (patched with zip-ties), and it hasn't been washed in, oh, about 5 years, because we live on a dirt road and washing cars is pointless. But I keep the oil changed and the tires rotated and it's still running nice and smooth after 220,000 miles. Importantly, I tie 0% of my self-worth to my car's appearance, and view it only as a convenient tool for modern life.
Wow, how big was that raccoon? Does "incident" mean something other than a collision?
LOL. It was probably a 20-lb raccoon, and I hit it doing 70 MPH on the interstate. I didn't want to use the word "collision" twice in a row so I called it an "incident" instead. "Accident" or "wreck" makes it sounds like the car might have slowed down. I can assure you that the raccoon had little effect on the car's momentum, but unfortunately the same could not be said for the bumper. (20 lbs of raccoon * 70 mph = 2400 foot-lbs of force)
I hit a raccoon at ~60MPH in a small sedan. Damaged the fascia, radiator, and oil pan -- check engine light came on within seconds and I had to have it towed. I can't remember the exact amount, but insurance paid ~$2,500 for repairs.
Totally derailing this topic, but I was riding a motorcycle years ago on a highway and hit a bird. The motorcycle didn't hit it; I did. It hit right on my shin and exploded in a mess of blood and feathers. It hurt like hell and was a pain to clean up.
Fuck that bird.
-
We take good care of our things (our neighbors recently asked to buy our 1999 Lexus, while my husband was washing it). We also just don't care & still do plenty of things that make us happy. (Nice travel, etc.) We are known for being good with our money & prioritizing the things we care about. I help coach a few others on how to set up a budget, track spending, etc. No one in my family would criticize (they ask for advice, more often) & most of our friends are in a similar situation.
It's a bit different at work, where people are pulling in big salaries. I find that there are a few buckets of people: 1) those that are clueless/just haven't thought about how to prioritize their expenses to best match what they care about 2) those who spend like the truly rich (but aren't) & 3) those who are more roughly aligned with how we spend, and are on track to retire soon.
-
I've always felt I'm different and often feel I don't really fit in, so when people make comments it just reinforces that notion which is normal for me!
I have had comments about my cars, but find that easy to handle by looking slightly bemused and as if its the first time I noticed I didn't have the latest shiniest car, and then saying in an absentminded way that I'm not really a car person. I've had lots of comments about my crappy phones over the years and I just make jokes about it. At various points I've held onto an old phone almost as a badge of pride and so that it has become a talking point and we can all have a laugh about it. Once my brother even had a go at me because I was using a tea towel with a hole in it, and I just retorted, "well it still works."
I'm used to confusing people and secretly rather enjoy doing that. I've been a sole parent which in my area holds negative connotations about being on struggle street. But even though I only worked part-time I was a high income earner and since I wasn't a complete spendthrift I did OK. So people would make assumptions about my lifestyle and then look confused when I didn't fit their projected model.
At work my position meant there was an expectation of a certain level of grooming and of course my peers were busy accumulating all the luxury lifestyle trappings. I basically targeted the lowest level I could get away with, and stayed fairly conservative with my style so that things didn't date so quickly. No one ever said anything so I guess I was successful. I didn't socialise with my peers because we were poles apart and I found conversation about cars/overseas resort holidays/renovations/the latest most expensive restaurant etc etc just so boring.
As an example, I grew up with a family tradition of a frugal annual skiing holiday and once I was single in a weird way that became important to me. I maintained my membership in a club, which was cheap and so was the club accommodation on the ski field. I used to travel down to the mountains just before the season to attend an annual ski sale of mostly second hand goods - mostly only known and frequented by the locals - and update all our skigear. So our annual weeks skiing was relatively cheap. One of my colleagues came back from a ski holiday saying how great is was but that it was so expensive. She then looked at me with confusion and asked how come I could ski every year. I just laughed and said I didn't do it the way she did. She didn't get it. But then she was the person who complained she'd bought a big fancy house in a fancy suburb but now so many of the rooms were empty because she couldn't afford new furniture to fill it!
-
I use to receive a lot of negative comments when I lived on a budget that was particularly small and had to say no to a lot of things. I was open about why I was saying no ("that amount is not in my budget. Yes my budget is small and that's because I'm trying to invest as much as possible to take advantage of compound interest"), which gave people the opportunity to give their opinion. To be fair, my budget was in the deprivation zone and I would have been wise to take note of their message. Now I'm out of the deprivation zone and I say "no" to things that I don't want to do, and the criticism has stopped.
So my take away is that the criticism can be a good opportunity to make sure you aren't falling into the deprivation zone.
-
I don’t hang out with people like that. I live in a pretty low income neighborhood, and I just don’t hang out with people who define themselves by cars or houses or clothes.
This! I have written about our Spendy Pants SIL who sadly judges everyone by their *job*, how much they make or don't make, what they drive, or the size of their house...Seriously...And then she wonders why most everyone in our circle doesn't socialize with her anymore.
We have learned to just live our life and avoid people like this. Owning bigger, better "things" is a false path to any kind of contentment or happiness....
-
I`ve always been somewhat cheap. I like to make people think that I have less money than I do. My car is a piece of junk that is falling apart with a rusty rooftop. I`m keeping it as long as possible. It is very humbling too, but whenever somebody flies by me in a big truck or a luxury car, I immediately wonder about how much debt they have because of that. :P
-
I'm kind of 'weird' anyway since I'm a foreigner so I'm off the hook for a lot of things. For example, we don't own a car. Until recently I had the handy excuse that I couldn't convert my US driving license for an Italian one and getting an Italian license is a long, expensive and painful affair (and my husband doesn't drive) but I recently got my Italian license so that excuse is gone. But people tend to just think that everything I do is weird (eat weird non-Italian food, walk to things, speak English with my kids, give them healthy after school snacks rather than horrible pre-packaged unhealthy stuff, buy stuff second hand and on sale, not get a new cell phone, not buy designer sunglasses etc etc).
Most of the criticism I get comes from my mother. She is on my case about not having a car and not having a cleaner, even though we work full time and have kids. I find it hard to respond to. Part of the issue is that she has major anxiety issues and is worried that my lack of seeming wealthy means that we're in financial trouble. She has lectured me in the past about my perceived lack of retirement savings. She just assumed that we didn't save anything as our incomes are "so low' (compared to hers) and we're obviously poor due to our "impoverished" car-less lifestyle. I felt like saying to her "so you want us to buy a car and have a weekly cleaner but, at the same time, you want us to save more for retirement? Those things are incompatible." But I don't think she sees the logic.
-
Most of the criticism I get comes from my mother.
Is she based in your home country? Could you just reverse your experience with other people and say "yeah mom, that just how it is in Italy. People really don't hire cleaners, etc, etc."?
-
I just say I'm Dutch. And where I'm at in the US that means of Dutch decent and it's a local stereotypical thing based on whatever Dutch group settled in this area.
That's not local. The Dutch will tell you that copper wire was invented by two Dutchmen fighting over a penny. :)
The Dutch were known for getting their money's worth on whatever they bought. Shrewd traders.
-
Most of the criticism I get comes from my mother.
Is she based in your home country? Could you just reverse your experience with other people and say "yeah mom, that just how it is in Italy. People really don't hire cleaners, etc, etc."?
I have a co-worker who is in his late fifties and has 2 adult children. He has one very frugal son and a (normal in his eyes) spendypants daughter. When he is talking about his children in the lunch break, he is often saying that his son is saving so much, that he doesn't have a life. He is seeing the frugality as something negative and abnormal. Whenever my co-worker needs to help his daughter out economically, he gives the same amount of money to his son, because that is fair. Then he forbids his son not to save that money, but spend it on something, like travel. Because saving such a gift would be boring and therefore stupid.
Obviously being frugal is so far from my co-worker's reality, that he finds it very hard to accept that he has produced such a child.
-
This whole post just seems foreign to me. People actually criticize you, like out loud, for being frugal? I don't think that has ever happened to me.
Or maybe it has and I just didn't notice, because I didn't care or I misunderstood their criticism as a compliment?
I live in a fancy house in a fancy neighborhood. We have two cars, one of which is electric. We take family vacations every year, my kids have new cell phones and fancy clothes, we're all in good healthy and reasonably well adjusted. For all intents and purposes, we look and act like a moderately successful upper middle class family, because we are. Who would possibly criticize us for being cheap?
Our regular family budget is also under $10k/year/person in a high cost of living area. These days it's just not that expensive to have fancy things and live a fancy life, if you're not being wasteful with your money. There are certainly people with more money than us, but I'm pretty sure even those people wouldn't consider my lifestyle impoverished.
It's been a long time since I was actively made fun of for this. Occasionally I'll hear "treat yo-self" like "you should buy a new car".
In the past, I was harassed for bringing my lunch every day. But one day, about 10 years ago, my car was totaled in an accident (well, spouse's car). We paid cash for the next car. In the lunch room shortly thereafter, someone made a comment about my packed lunch. I pointed out that I calculated that 5 years of packing lunches for me, spouse, and kid (only 1 at the time) equaled a new car. That I just paid cash for.
Lots more people bring lunch nowadays.
-
When I lived closer to NYC (back in the '90s), my co-workers all made around the same amount of money, around $100k. I was amazed when they all started buying houses at the $450k price point, and having a brand new Lexus was considered normal, even if it was usually an ES300/330 back then. People thought nothing of eating out for lunch every day, with $5 iced-coffees for dessert.
I would have loved to have bought real estate in NYC on any budget in the 90's :) 5x yearly income in NYC is not even remotely possible today. Of course they had no idea. They can keep their cars though.
Huh? 5x income in NYC is totally possible, in fact it's easy. I'm looking at Zillow right now and there are 19 one bedrooms in lower Manhattan (defined as below Central Park) for less than $500k. In most of the rest of the city it's easy to find two or even three bedrooms for less than $500k. Sure it was much cheaper back in the 90s, but I don't agree with your second sentence at all. (Note: I am an NYC resident as well and have looked at open houses, though I don't currently own an apartment)
As to the OP, while I'm not always successful, mostly I try not to care about it. If people inquire honestly I'll tell them more about my beliefs, but the people that are just being snarky I mostly brush off. As someone else said, I don't think they really want to hear the answers anyway.
-
Remember if you've adopted the frugal mindset, you will see the world different from others which is absolutely fine! They think it's about social status and if you have a nice car and house and all the other bs, then your wealthy. When in reality we know that's absolutely false. But rather they probably have numerous loans out in which they are living month to month. You on the other hand, who has adopted a frugal lifestyle, sees that wealth isn't based on how many toys you have, but rather the number in your bank account, and your money producing assets. In the long run you will be long ahead of people who are giving you a hard time calling you, "cheap"!
-
When I lived closer to NYC (back in the '90s), my co-workers all made around the same amount of money, around $100k. I was amazed when they all started buying houses at the $450k price point, and having a brand new Lexus was considered normal, even if it was usually an ES300/330 back then. People thought nothing of eating out for lunch every day, with $5 iced-coffees for dessert.
I would have loved to have bought real estate in NYC on any budget in the 90's :) 5x yearly income in NYC is not even remotely possible today. Of course they had no idea. They can keep their cars though.
Huh? 5x income in NYC is totally possible, in fact it's easy. I'm looking at Zillow right now and there are 19 one bedrooms in lower Manhattan (defined as below Central Park) for less than $500k. In most of the rest of the city it's easy to find two or even three bedrooms for less than $500k. Sure it was much cheaper back in the 90s, but I don't agree with your second sentence at all. (Note: I am an NYC resident as well and have looked at open houses, though I don't currently own an apartment)
As to the OP, while I'm not always successful, mostly I try not to care about it. If people inquire honestly I'll tell them more about my beliefs, but the people that are just being snarky I mostly brush off. As someone else said, I don't think they really want to hear the answers anyway.
I'm a NYC resident too, and we bought a few years ago. Agree that 1bd in Manhattan can be had for less than $500k, but you'd be getting a 400sq ft box with maintenance (which includes property taxes) of $900 a month or more. You CAN find a 2 or 3bd in the city for less than $500k, but you'd have to look in the Bronx, distant Brooklyn, or non-prime Queens. FWIW, we offered up to 1mil for a 2bd when we were looking & found that we were priced out of Manhattan south of 100th street and prime Brooklyn. We maybe could have done a junior 2bd (a larger 1bd converted to a 2bd) in those neighborhoods at that price, but we would have had to compete for it. So, yeah, I would have loved to buy NYC real estate in the 90s.
-
Mariposa - I'm from NYC and have friends and family still there. I didn't grow up in one of those 'prime neighborhoods' you mention and even went to public school back in the dreaded 70s and 80s and, amazingly, lived to tell the tale. Part of being mustachian is looking beyond social status and fashion and doing things a bit differently and that is absolutely possible in NYC, although maybe a bit harder. When I lived in NYC I always lived 'above the 100s' or in a non-fashionable 'bridge and tunnel' area - it was great and much more like the 'real NYC" of my childhood than those fashionable Manhattan below the 100s areas and the trendy parts of Brooklyn and Queens. If I moved back to NYC, I'd be looking to move to the Bronx, Jersey City, other inner areas of NJ, Jackson Heights, Washington Heights or Midwood.
terran - yes, my mother is based back in the US. Only problem is that when she visits us she notices that all our friends have cars and cleaning people - not to mention skiing holidays and beach holidays.
-
People criticize due to ignorance or jealousy. Fuck them. Best to have the last laugh anyway. Live your life how you want.
-
When I lived closer to NYC (back in the '90s), my co-workers all made around the same amount of money, around $100k. I was amazed when they all started buying houses at the $450k price point, and having a brand new Lexus was considered normal, even if it was usually an ES300/330 back then. People thought nothing of eating out for lunch every day, with $5 iced-coffees for dessert.
I would have loved to have bought real estate in NYC on any budget in the 90's :) 5x yearly income in NYC is not even remotely possible today. Of course they had no idea. They can keep their cars though.
Huh? 5x income in NYC is totally possible, in fact it's easy. I'm looking at Zillow right now and there are 19 one bedrooms in lower Manhattan (defined as below Central Park) for less than $500k. In most of the rest of the city it's easy to find two or even three bedrooms for less than $500k. Sure it was much cheaper back in the 90s, but I don't agree with your second sentence at all. (Note: I am an NYC resident as well and have looked at open houses, though I don't currently own an apartment)
As to the OP, while I'm not always successful, mostly I try not to care about it. If people inquire honestly I'll tell them more about my beliefs, but the people that are just being snarky I mostly brush off. As someone else said, I don't think they really want to hear the answers anyway.
I'm a NYC resident too, and we bought a few years ago. Agree that 1bd in Manhattan can be had for less than $500k, but you'd be getting a 400sq ft box with maintenance (which includes property taxes) of $900 a month or more. You CAN find a 2 or 3bd in the city for less than $500k, but you'd have to look in the Bronx, distant Brooklyn, or non-prime Queens. FWIW, we offered up to 1mil for a 2bd when we were looking & found that we were priced out of Manhattan south of 100th street and prime Brooklyn. We maybe could have done a junior 2bd (a larger 1bd converted to a 2bd) in those neighborhoods at that price, but we would have had to compete for it. So, yeah, I would have loved to buy NYC real estate in the 90s.
Of course, but you're still being far too harsh. Here's a 2 bedroom in prime lower Manhattan for $550k:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/house,condo,apartment_duplex,townhouse_type/244799608_zpid/2-_beds/101000-700000_price/396-2741_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/40.747062,-73.923826,40.668074,-74.043646_rect/12_zm/
It's small, of course. If you need space, I'm not sure why you'd live in NYC. But online I see places all over the place that are much cheaper than you're talking about. Here's a 2 bedroom in Harlem for $350k:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/house,condo,apartment_duplex,townhouse_type/2090235505_zpid/2-_beds/300000-500000_price/1175-1958_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/40.821863,-73.926788,40.782426,-73.986698_rect/13_zm/
I'm seeing tons like it. Lots in places like Astoria in Queens, or Bushwick and Bed-Stuy in Brooklyn. Then there's the Jersey side, with tons of places in JC, Hoboken, and Weehawken. So I don't agree that you have to look in "Bronx, distant Brooklyn, or non-prime Queens". Distant Brooklyn is like Sheepshead Bay or Canarsie, and Harlem is in Manhattan.
Sorry, but it's a bit infuriating when someone says "5x income is not even remotely possible in NYC" (in reference to $100k income) when I'm looking at places that are 3-4x income, and that's without considering the far out places like Staten Island or east Brooklyn. The comment was something I'd expect to hear in the mainstream media, not MMM.
-
Honestly, some of you guys should just be out and proud rather than feeling defensive.
Just say: "I'm doing great, I worked my arse off for it and I make no apologies for my choices." It's a line that applies no matter how frugal or lavish your lifestyle, because the important thing is that it's your lifestyle and it's fully justified as long as it's fully paid off!
-
I'm a NYC resident too, and we bought a few years ago. Agree that 1bd in Manhattan can be had for less than $500k, but you'd be getting a 400sq ft box with maintenance (which includes property taxes) of $900 a month or more. You CAN find a 2 or 3bd in the city for less than $500k, but you'd have to look in the Bronx, distant Brooklyn, or non-prime Queens. FWIW, we offered up to 1mil for a 2bd when we were looking & found that we were priced out of Manhattan south of 100th street and prime Brooklyn. We maybe could have done a junior 2bd (a larger 1bd converted to a 2bd) in those neighborhoods at that price, but we would have had to compete for it. So, yeah, I would have loved to buy NYC real estate in the 90s.
Of course, but you're still being far too harsh. Here's a 2 bedroom in prime lower Manhattan for $550k:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/house,condo,apartment_duplex,townhouse_type/244799608_zpid/2-_beds/101000-700000_price/396-2741_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/40.747062,-73.923826,40.668074,-74.043646_rect/12_zm/
It's small, of course. If you need space, I'm not sure why you'd live in NYC. But online I see places all over the place that are much cheaper than you're talking about. Here's a 2 bedroom in Harlem for $350k:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/house,condo,apartment_duplex,townhouse_type/2090235505_zpid/2-_beds/300000-500000_price/1175-1958_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/40.821863,-73.926788,40.782426,-73.986698_rect/13_zm/
I'm seeing tons like it. Lots in places like Astoria in Queens, or Bushwick and Bed-Stuy in Brooklyn. Then there's the Jersey side, with tons of places in JC, Hoboken, and Weehawken. So I don't agree that you have to look in "Bronx, distant Brooklyn, or non-prime Queens". Distant Brooklyn is like Sheepshead Bay or Canarsie, and Harlem is in Manhattan.
Sorry, but it's a bit infuriating when someone says "5x income is not even remotely possible in NYC" (in reference to $100k income) when I'm looking at places that are 3-4x income, and that's without considering the far out places like Staten Island or east Brooklyn. The comment was something I'd expect to hear in the mainstream media, not MMM.
That 2bd in the East Village in the first listing is actually a good deal for that area, even it's small, and the place doesn't seem to have a single closet. The Harlem listing on the surface looks too good to be true. But if you look at the details, it's an income-restricted unit. It's not a normal listing. Harlem is a fairly expensive place to live these days if you're paying market rate.
Look, if you buy in this city, you'll know that some of these listings aren't real, and some of them are dramatically underpriced to spark a bidding war. When we were looking, we offered asking price for several places that eventually went for 20% more. And you're competing against all-cash offers and people with salaries 1-3x sale price. In a city with a 97% occupancy rate and an overcrowding rate of 11%, real estate is not going to be that easy, even for (moderately) wealthy people like us. (For the super wealthy, it's another story.) I'm not saying it's impossible, but to say it's easy for someone making $100k to buy in highly sought-after NYC neighborhoods these days is a bit disingenuous.
(I know nothing about real estate in NJ. A Jersey commute has never been practical for where either of us work.)
-
(I know nothing about real estate in NJ. A Jersey commute has never been practical for where either of us work.)
That's a shame. My friend used to live near the Grove Street PATH station in Jersey City. She worked in midtown and it took her 30 minutes. If she had worked downtown it would have been lots less. Hoboken has similar commute times if you live near the PATH.
I agree that NY is way overpriced but I also think living in "prime" areas of Brooklyn or Manhattan is face-punch worthy considering how much they cost compared to less fashionable areas in NYC.
-
Really the ONLY person that has really, truly, given me shit, has been my boss.
One of his smart-assed comments pertained to the car I drive, and how he pays me enough to go buy something new. He went on to say something along the lines of me "obsessing over my first million"...
My response was "forget about new cars, I'd rather have fuck you money"...
That was the end of that conversation... :-)
-
@bb11, that first unit has been on the market for a whole year. It's a fifth floor walk-up and the HOA fees are at least $949 a month. I say "at least" because the agent who commissioned those artful photos and not-to-scale floor plan most likely hasn't updated the HOA dues either.
Best advice: beware giving advice to others that could be construed as pure bullshit. Nothing stays on the market for a full year unless there are significant detractors. Price, schools, neighborhood, high HOAs, deferred building maintenance, looming special assessments, etc, could all be contributing to the unit's problems. Good thing they're someone else's problems.
Oh, hey, it has one IKEA closet. It's in the master "bedroom", which is merely the portion of the room behind the shoji screen in the living room.
-
For us our frugality must look like poverty to certain people close to us. Our cars seem to be the easiest indicator for people to take notice of. When we were driving our 18 year old car we were assumed to be poor. When we bought something a few years old for out of town trips (our second car is the nicer car, we wear out the older car daily) - people took notice and assumed we had reached "easy street". We made a nice gift to someone close along the way - we bought something they admired at our house - and I think that side of the family figured out that we were frugal, not poor.
Someone else still occasionally says something like "well, someday when you can afford it..." when we could afford it a long time ago but choose not to spend like that. Along the way we quit sharing certain aspirations and hopeful plans with anyone but each other (DW and I) because everyone's expectations and opinions would get rolled into the mix and their commentary causes us stress. Some people's opinions were objective and useful. Some people's were not and are not. At least one or two seem to see an opportunity to be negative about whatever we do.
For everyone having a hard time with people:
https://youtu.be/Vqbk9cDX0l0
-
You know what they say in Occum.........
Foccum
-
My parents frquently complain that I'm "cheap". I'm starting to figure it has nothing to do with how I spend my money, and everything to do with the fact that I spent it without consulting them first.
I'm 32 years old. I talk to them as little as I can get away with. I moved 600 km to get away from thwm and it wasn't far enough. They still try to micro manage me.
Tips on how to deflect the never ending guilt trips would be appreciated.
-
Tips on how to deflect the never ending guilt trips would be appreciated.
https://smile.amazon.com/Boundaries-Updated-Expanded-When-Control/dp/0310350239/
-
Could be that they have good intentions but their methods are lousy. Or - could be that you're right. It happens. Consistency would be nice though.
-
For us our frugality must look like poverty to certain people close to us. Our cars seem to be the easiest indicator for people to take notice of. When we were driving our 18 year old car we were assumed to be poor. When we bought something a few years old for out of town trips (our second car is the nicer car, we wear out the older car daily) - people took notice and assumed we had reached "easy street". We made a nice gift to someone close along the way - we bought something they admired at our house - and I think that side of the family figured out that we were frugal, not poor.
Someone else still occasionally says something like "well, someday when you can afford it..." when we could afford it a long time ago but choose not to spend like that. Along the way we quit sharing certain aspirations and hopeful plans with anyone but each other (DW and I) because everyone's expectations and opinions would get rolled into the mix and their commentary causes us stress. Some people's opinions were objective and useful. Some people's were not and are not. At least one or two seem to see an opportunity to be negative about whatever we do.
For everyone having a hard time with people:
https://youtu.be/Vqbk9cDX0l0
Love that video
-
For us our frugality must look like poverty to certain people close to us. Our cars seem to be the easiest indicator for people to take notice of. When we were driving our 18 year old car we were assumed to be poor. When we bought something a few years old for out of town trips (our second car is the nicer car, we wear out the older car daily) - people took notice and assumed we had reached "easy street". We made a nice gift to someone close along the way - we bought something they admired at our house - and I think that side of the family figured out that we were frugal, not poor.
Someone else still occasionally says something like "well, someday when you can afford it..." when we could afford it a long time ago but choose not to spend like that. Along the way we quit sharing certain aspirations and hopeful plans with anyone but each other (DW and I) because everyone's expectations and opinions would get rolled into the mix and their commentary causes us stress. Some people's opinions were objective and useful. Some people's were not and are not. At least one or two seem to see an opportunity to be negative about whatever we do.
For everyone having a hard time with people:
https://youtu.be/Vqbk9cDX0l0
Love that video
I've just found my life's anthem!
-
My parents frquently complain that I'm "cheap". I'm starting to figure it has nothing to do with how I spend my money, and everything to do with the fact that I spent it without consulting them first.
I'm 32 years old. I talk to them as little as I can get away with. I moved 600 km to get away from thwm and it wasn't far enough. They still try to micro manage me.
Tips on how to deflect the never ending guilt trips would be appreciated.
I'm curious as to what their finances look like.
-
My parents frquently complain that I'm "cheap". I'm starting to figure it has nothing to do with how I spend my money, and everything to do with the fact that I spent it without consulting them first.
I'm 32 years old. I talk to them as little as I can get away with. I moved 600 km to get away from thwm and it wasn't far enough. They still try to micro manage me.
Tips on how to deflect the never ending guilt trips would be appreciated.
Tell them that you aren't going to put up with guilt trips, and then change your phone number?
-
Friends and family make jokes when I do something frugal. "We know you're rich!" That kind of stuff.
To which I'll respond, "That's how you stay rich.", quoting Tyrese from Furious 6.
-
My parents frquently complain that I'm "cheap". I'm starting to figure it has nothing to do with how I spend my money, and everything to do with the fact that I spent it without consulting them first.
I'm curious as to what their finances look like.
Bwhahahahaha! Ready for the drama? There's a lot of drama here!
Dad has been on the verge of bankruptcy for most of his adult life. Step 1: get credit card. Buy something. Step 2: Do not ever make a payment on credit card. Step 3: All bills go in an unopened pile somewhere. Step 4: Once the creditors catch on, unplug phones from the wall and live in denial as long as possible.
Step 5: Call all creditors, show them how deep a hole you're in, pay them all a fraction of what you owe to settle everything without officially declaring bankruptcy.
He went through the cycle three times that I know of before I left home at 19. He was somewhere around Steps 2-3 when he met his current wife, and unlike my mother, he actually let the second wife manage his finances. I don't know how far in or out of the hole he is now. I suspect he has car debt, and RV debt, but he has no house debt. The house is in Second Wife's name, paid off. He requested to remortgage it to buy into someone else's business. His Second Wife told him no, then called me to apologize. (Local religions dictate the Man is the head of the household, that it isn't her place to deny him management of the finances.) I told her she'd done the right thing. Dad knows nothing about the industry this "businessman" was trying to get him to buy into.
When my parents divorced, he showed up in court with tons of credit card debt that Mom had never seen before. Tried to pin it on her. She went to the bank, and said "So how many credit cards are on the joint account?" and found two cards that he had completely forgotten about, and hadn't taken to court. One was maxed.
Mom had started to notice there was a problem years before. She'd done calculations for living expenses to come to less than 50% of household income, but had no idea where all the money was going. Dad kept no paper trail, wouldn't let her see his personal accounts, wouldn't answer questions when asked. She started asking questions directly to the bank/credit card companies when her credit score started taking a hit. It had never occurred to her that he was lying, that he was so far in the red.
These days Mom generally has enough to cover her house, and then spends a ton of money on living a "typical middle class lifestyle". Every week she's buying something new, usually on sale, usually a good deal, but did she have to buy the thing? Not really. She's incredibly sentimental about her objects, her furniture, her clothes. They're her reminders of family, of friends, "oh yes I bought that the day I got my Masters" etc.
She can't afford to own her house since the divorce, and has been moving for career related reasons for the past decade. If the place she ends up living in is less than 2000 sq ft, she's putting things in storage. She hates having things in storage and will regularly rotate what she has in the home with what's in storage so she gets to see all her stuff throughout the year. Her current place is a monstrous 2500 sq ft (She works as an Anglican priest, the rectory came with the posting) and she didn't have to buy furniture for it. It's ridiculous.
Both parents keep enough of an emergency fund that they can cover a car repair, but not enough to pay cash for a new econo car if things go south.
Both come from the same small-town-rural culture where the Family has owned that piece of farmland for 5 generations. A large part of their personal self-esteem comes from their role in the community, and their role as my parents. They're horrified that I'm "a workaholic who doesn't have time for Faaaaamily". Working overtime, and working second jobs, bring up mention of "the love of money is the root of all evil". Nevermind that their parents work a 50 or 60 hour work week to keep the farms going, even in their 80s. I figured out years ago that if I lived the way they wanted, I'd be below the poverty line and dependent on them my entire adult life. They have no concept of how to earn money, how to grow a career, how to live independent of the community. What little I know I've learned on my own.
They have no stigma against second hand clothing. They have stigmas against wearing the same clothes for three years straight.
They have no stigma against me growing my own food, or driving an old car. They hate that I refuse to pay money to ship "family heirlooms" across the province, and have thrown out most of the ones they've personally driven to me themselves.
Their biggest complaint is that I don't drive home multiple times per year to see them. Nevermind that it costs a ton of time for very little reward for me. What 30 something wants to drive home and be treated like a child several times per year? Whenever I start a new job, they immediately ask how much vacation time I have.
Me: I get two weeks per year.
Mom: Oh that's perfect! You can spend one week with me in [small town], and the other week with your father near his parent's place!
Me: (screams internally)
Dad, several months later: So how much vacation time do you get?
Me: I'm not sure, I haven't looked into it yet. (lying)
My brother, who works for the same union: We get two weeks/per year for the first five years, then it goes up to three.
Dad: Oh that's perfect! You can spend one week with me, then another with your mother! Later, when you get more vacation, you can start to visit your grandparents in Florida in the winter!
Me: (screams internally)
Thank you, @Just Joe for the video! I absolutely needed that.
-
Sounds like fodder for a great novel.
-
Oof, kelvin, that's pretty dramatic. Captain Awkward may be able to help you in setting up a new dynamic with your parents. Her blog has some really good scripts about how to cut conversations short, etc.
-
Sounds like fodder for a great novel.
No kidding.
What would the reaction look like if you just gave them a flat out "no" for something? "You can spend one week with me..." "No, I'm planning to go [insert vacation here]." What happens next?
-
Oof, kelvin, that's pretty dramatic. Captain Awkward may be able to help you in setting up a new dynamic with your parents. Her blog has some really good scripts about how to cut conversations short, etc.
Yikes man. Wow kelvin. That's...awkward.
My parents divorced. I visited them annually for awhile (once we had a kid, it became every other year).
But annually meant...I'd go home for 3-6 days total, and see them both.
I was earning 3+ weeks vacation a year.
No way I'd use all my vacation for them.
But then again, I have friends whose families were much like yours in how they expected visits. Are you an only child?
-
bring up mention of "the love of money is the root of all evil".
For people who claim not to love money, they sure sound like they spend a lot of it.
-
@englishteacheralex Maybe I could write the novel under a pseudonym, so no one ever knew it was me? There was One Aunt who wrote a book a few years back and it's still standard conversation in the small town.
Unfortunately, it wasn't fun to live with, so I can't imagine it'd be any fun to read. Books should be fun!
@Maenad Captain Awkward is awesome. Because of Captain Awkward I now visit once every two years, and no more.
@dougules They pretend they didn't hear me and ask again, with a "reason" why they're right and I'm wrong. To quote Captain Awkward: "Giving reasons to unreasonable, difficult, manipulative people is like giving them ammunition for the fight they want to have with you about your boundaries and how you should not really have them.
People raised by unreasonable, difficult, manipulative people have a tendency to over-justify things because their “but that’s what I want” or “but I think that’s the best decision for me” never counted for anything when they grew up." (Full post is https://captainawkward.com/2015/02/02/655-visits-with-highly-difficult-people/ (https://captainawkward.com/2015/02/02/655-visits-with-highly-difficult-people/))
@mm1970 They currently live too far from each other for me to pile them into one trip. Mom's 6 hours one way, Dad's 8 hours a different way, and to go from one to the other is 6 hours. (I wish roads made proper triangles...) I'm the oldest of two. My brother has a different approach to what constitutes "enough" with my parents, so each parent uses the other child's behaviour in the ongoing guilt trip. "Brother came down for Christmas, why can't you?" "Kelvin sent me a birthday present, why can't you?" etc.
Brother generally visits every year, in the middle of winter when the roads are awful. My new tradition is every other year, in summer. I call it "The Grand Tour" and spend the whole time talking about all the other amazing people I visited during my travels. "Sorry, I can't stay, I'm due at Aunt's place tomorrow!" "Sorry, can't stay, I'm due at the Neighbour's Family Cottage this weekend!" It's gruelling but it gets the job done, and no one can claim favouritism. Plus I can usually carve out a day or two to sit and read in a hammock.
All this to say I am very bad at talking to people who criticize how I handle money, and where I live, and what car I drive and.... I'm still learning what is and isn't reasonable, both in terms of spending and in terms of what's a normal conversation.
-
Not care, and try not to think too poorly of them...
-
Not care, and try not to think too poorly of them...
I think it is a matter of diplomatically saying "no" when you need to and not caring if they don't like that answer. That being said, learning how to not care can be a surprisingly difficult skill to learn. It may even take a therapist.