Author Topic: How do you guys feel about organic foods?  (Read 13742 times)

maizefolk

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2017, 12:08:55 PM »
Stop spreading misleading information that suggests that science is sure that conventional pesticides are safe because study after study raise serious questions about that.

No. They don't.

Lots of studies suggest that high exposures to certain pesticides at certain doses are cause major health problems. Paraquat, for example, is an herbicide I'll be happy to see the end of, because it is toxic, and has a reasonably long half-life out in the environment. There is plenty of evidence that being the person who sprays certain highly toxic pesticides (like paraquat) is bad for your long term health and wellness, particularly without adequate protective gear. The errors you make are 1) treating all pesticides as a single category with common properties 2) trying to argue that for this broad category of pesticides knowledge of dosage and effect size doesn't matter (unlike every other potential toxin in our environment, like ethanol).

Also, science is never sure about anything. You realize that... right? With enough new evidence you could convince a scientist that our current ideas about how gravity works are wrong. ... but you do need to actually have the evidence. Since you've bowed out of this conversation, I guess this is just a rhetorical question, but I'd be interested if you -- or anyone else -- could point to a place where I've said "science shows that every chemical used as a pesticide is safe." My belief is that if you looked, all you would find is me pointing out that a lot of the studies you were pointing to to say science had showed the danger of pesticide residue on food didn't in fact demonstrate what you said they showed.

If you want to eat organic food, go for it. I'm certainly not trying to stop you. But if you twist the scientific method and the scientific record to scare other people into doing the same thing, I'm going to keep popping up to point out that that is, in fact, what you are doing.

...hey, it's kind of fun having the last word. Thanks!

TheGibberingPotato

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2017, 12:17:29 PM »
Keep being blind to the dangers of synthetic pesticides at your own peril.  I’m not going to argue. This is an issue where people on here have their minds made up, already.  Calling the purchase of non conventional foods a scam is irresponsible.  It is illegal to conduct a study on human effects of synthetic pesticide exposure because it is unethical to intentionally expose humans to pesticides. All evidence suggests that a significant percentage of synthetic pesticides cause neurological and carcinogenic damage to humans. Again, setting a safe exposure level is unethical because you can’t conduct the necessary tests. Eat whatever type of food you desire. It is repugnant however, to judge those who wish to err on the side of caution, given the mounds of evidence of links.

https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/wp-content/uploads/advpub/2014/6/ehp.1307044.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9498903/

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/health/natural-health/pesticides/index.htm

Not sure who you are saying is  judging...

You call the people here condemning organica irresponsible, but actually your post is totally irresponsible because you misinterpret and misuse data.  Please read my entire response before making up your mind.

My main point is that people should make data informed decisions.  The data indicates a lot of uncertainty.  This is actually what the links you provided indicate.

Your first link describes toxicity to people who live neear where pesticides are used.  But this is different than eating pesticide treated foods.  Very different. 

Your second link states that although pesticides are strongly linked to cancers/etc in lab animals, there is insufficient data to consider it causal in humans.  Im not trying to argue pesticides dont cause these things in humans, but we should speak accurately about the data.  Furthermore, there again is a difference between pesticide exposure in the lab and eating it in food.  Lastly, your link is only a link to the abstract.  Did you only read the abstract before using this in your argument?

Your third link, the consumers report one.  This provides a nice public friendly overview.  It also acknowledges insufficient data to draw strong quantitave conclusions on risk.

My point here is not to say that it is a bad idea to avoid conventional produce.  I actually support this on the whole, depnding on your financial situation.  The point, rather, is make people like you understood that while there is a risk, it is a poorly understood risk.  Remember, the dose makes the poison.  Its not whether or not there are pesticides in foods.  Its which ones, and at what concentration.  And with that said, scientists have not clearly determined at what concentrations pesticides in foods cause problems.  And because this is the MMM forum which is very budget conscious, and people here understand how important it is to eat vegetables, people here are going to support eating vegetables over eating organic vegetables.  It is a very logical choice, because data corrrelations between the benefits of eating vegetables are strong, whereas the data correlations between pesticide treated food and cancer are weak (at this time).  If the data situation improves, im sure ths forum would completly support organic food.  But until then, the risk in buying organic food is that it is expensive and wasteful.  Therefore, only when you have extra funds available does it make sense to buy organic.  The consequences are potentially high, but the degree of uncertainy is quite high at this time.  It is up to the individual to decide where to draw the line, but we should be able to come to agreements on the data (and if not, that is what shouldk be discussed.)

In short, you are misrespresenting the data.  There are not mounds of data linking consumption of conventional foods to cancer.  Rather, there are strong links between pesticides and cancer.  These are different things, and you are being irresponsible by not making this the topic of discussion while meanwhile calling others irresponsible.

sol

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2017, 12:59:20 PM »
I'm a scientist.  I generally assume pesticides are bad for you, because they are chemicals designed to kill living things.  Pests.

But as had been pointed out repeatedly, dosage matters.  Chlorine and fluorine are both clearly fatal chemicals to be exposed to, but I absolutely WANT both of them in my drinking water, because it is better for me to have these things in there in tiny quantities than to not have them in there.

Just because something is bad for you doesn't mean you should avoid it.  Let's not oversimplify a complicated topic with exaggerated and alarmist rhetoric.

ooeei

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2017, 06:28:02 AM »
Keep being blind to the dangers of synthetic pesticides at your own peril.  I’m not going to argue. This is an issue where people on here have their minds made up, already.  Calling the purchase of non conventional foods a scam is irresponsible.  It is illegal to conduct a study on human effects of synthetic pesticide exposure because it is unethical to intentionally expose humans to pesticides. All evidence suggests that a significant percentage of synthetic pesticides cause neurological and carcinogenic damage to humans. Again, setting a safe exposure level is unethical because you can’t conduct the necessary tests. Eat whatever type of food you desire. It is repugnant however, to judge those who wish to err on the side of caution, given the mounds of evidence of links.

https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/wp-content/uploads/advpub/2014/6/ehp.1307044.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9498903/

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/health/natural-health/pesticides/index.htm

I get where you're coming from here, you're basically arguing that we know high doses of pesticides are bad, so why risk it with low doses when we can't be sure? There's no down side.

The problem is, there is a down side. The more expensive vegetables are, the less likely people are to buy/eat them. Eating conventional fruits/veggies is vastly superior to not eating any, I think that's a very important distinction to make in these arguments. We're arguing about which type of vegetables are better for you, not arguing which ones are bad for you.

The other problem is, and this has been stated many times including the other thread, dosage is critically important when talking about poison. Roughly 6 liters of water is enough to kill someone.

I'd encourage anyone interested to check out the other thread (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/organic-vs-conventional-food-prices/) where we discuss things like reference doses on page 2, or how the EWG "dirty dozen" is a flawed concept. The reality is, organic probably won't hurt you (although neither will conventional), but if you eat half as many vegetables because they're more expensive you'd almost certainly be better off with conventional.

sol

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2017, 08:18:43 AM »
expensive you'd almost certainly be better off with conventional.

We've had this same discussion about biking.  Some folks have argued that biking is bad for you because it increases your risk of being hit by a car (on a per mile but not per hour basis), but they don't recognize that a person who bikes regularly is almost guaranteed to live longer than a couch potato.  The positive health effects of biking more far outweigh the risk of being hit by a car.  Tbs positive health effects of eating more fruits and vegetables far outweigh the risks of consuming trace amounts of approved pesticides.

SachaFiscal

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2017, 09:48:54 AM »
I agree that the benefits of eating more fruits and vegetables outweigh the trace chemicals on them. Higher up the food chain, though, they get more concentrated (fish, poultry, meat).

Even so I do buy organic food when possible because I can afford it right now. Anything on the dirty dozen list (e.g. apples) I try to buy organic and anything on the clean fifteen list I buy conventional (e.g broccoli).
https://www.ewg.org/foodnews/#.WgCQ_f-Iaf0

Everything in between I try to buy organic but I’m not as particular about. When my husband eventually retires and we are both withdrawing from our retirement accounts I may revert to all conventional.

I’ve read that washing vegetables in salt water removes the most pesticide residue and salt is fairly cheap in bulk. One part salt to nine parts water. I may just do that eventually.



crazyworld

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2017, 09:50:31 AM »
I actively avoid organic foods and other anti-intellectual nonsense. Two products for the same price, I'll choose the non-organic, so as to not support it.

How do you feel about homeopathic medicine?

^^
Organic = MARKETING tool to get you to spend more $$
Organic = higher cost, higher ecological impact
In truth this is my conclusion as well.

Based on your feelings or there is some data/research?
Research ;) It is what is known as a 'commodity differentiator': getting customers to pay more for a commodity. search that term and wallow in the marketing schlock. enjoy.
BTW Autism has been caused by Jenny McCarthy and/or rising tuition costs.

Meh, if that's all you have, color me unconvinced.  Differentiation does not mean pesticides are ok for you.   Autism is still not understood, so I don;t get the the point of this graph.  Anyway, I do not bother to try and convince other people to eat organic.  Your body, your money, your choice.  My choice for years has been to lean towards local and organic foods as much as possible. 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 09:52:40 AM by crazyworld »

ooeei

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2017, 11:49:41 AM »
I agree that the benefits of eating more fruits and vegetables outweigh the trace chemicals on them. Higher up the food chain, though, they get more concentrated (fish, poultry, meat).

Even so I do buy organic food when possible because I can afford it right now. Anything on the dirty dozen list (e.g. apples) I try to buy organic and anything on the clean fifteen list I buy conventional (e.g broccoli).
https://www.ewg.org/foodnews/#.WgCQ_f-Iaf0

Everything in between I try to buy organic but I’m not as particular about. When my husband eventually retires and we are both withdrawing from our retirement accounts I may revert to all conventional.

I’ve read that washing vegetables in salt water removes the most pesticide residue and salt is fairly cheap in bulk. One part salt to nine parts water. I may just do that eventually.

Be aware that the dirty dozen is based on the number of pesticide residues found, and does not take into account quantity or toxicity. This may not give you the info you actually want to know. Consider two fruits:

An apple with 3 residues of very mild pesticides at doses 1/100 of the safe limit amount.

A pear with residue from two extremely potent pesticides, each at only 1/2 a safe amount.

If I had to pick between those two fruits based on minimizing pesticides, the apple is the obvious choice. On the dirty dozen the pear would rank below the apple. In reality the "safe dose" for pesticides is based on a reference dose, which I discuss on page 2 of the other thread in detail, so either of them should be fine. If you think the concept of reference doses is flawed, then the apple is the clear choice, and the dirty dozen does nothing to help you.

TheAnonOne

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2017, 10:45:41 AM »
I always found the "Organic" topic to be in the same bucket as religion. Facts don't seem to matter to the argument.

In general 'Organic' food is a profit engine.

If you care about animal well being, other labels are more effective.

StarBright

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2017, 11:06:18 AM »
We try give our kids organic when able (particularly strawberries, apples and milk - which are consumed in vast quantities). But don't stress about it too much for the adults in the house.

I am much more careful about BPA and actively avoided it while pregnant (didn't even touch receipts).

Info on a (very small) pesticide study published recently:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/30/health/pesticides-in-food-fertility-study/?iid=ob_article_footer_expansion

Regarding pesticides and fertilizers, etc. - My understanding is that the watershed in areas where crops are grown organically is superior to areas with conventionally grown crops.

As someone who lives in a town that dealt with a toxic algae bloom last month I'm giving this more thought than I used to.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 12:58:13 PM by StarBright »

backandforth

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #60 on: November 07, 2017, 12:44:17 PM »
Here is a pretty detailed report from Consumer report on this topic. There is one full page on what to buy : organic or conventional from specific origin.

I am buying organic whenever I can,you can get them for a reasonable price (when some items on sale in WF, TJ, Costco, and our local store) if you pay attention. We have cut out eating out significantly, which is more than offset any cost increase from buying organic on a monthly basis.

triangle

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2017, 08:51:54 PM »
I like the idea of organic foods but I do not pay a premium for them. For those that insist on organic do you have have an secondary concerns. Like what if your organic vegetables were grown beside a busy congested highway or downwind from a coal power electrical plant or fertilized with the poop of a cows feed GMO corn and pesticide treated grain? Those are rhetorical questions but are part of the reason why I think it is not so straightforward to be organic.

Radagast

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Re: How do you guys feel about organic foods?
« Reply #62 on: November 07, 2017, 10:58:00 PM »
I actively avoid organic foods and other anti-intellectual nonsense. Two products for the same price, I'll choose the non-organic, so as to not support it.

How do you feel about homeopathic medicine?

^^
Organic = MARKETING tool to get you to spend more $$
Organic = higher cost, higher ecological impact
In truth this is my conclusion as well.

Based on your feelings or there is some data/research?
Speaking up late for myself: neither. I am not generally the "feelings" type regarding these things, and yet I don't care enough to do research and collect data. Instead I have an observation and a general hypothesis/principal.
1. MARKETING tool to get you to spend more $$
Organic produce is virtually never priced competitively with regular. There is never a circumstance I have seen where I would look at both and contemplate which to get. As I said in my previous post, I have only ever seen organic-labeled produce be priced very low as a loss leader ($0.99 kale), or very high to drive a high profit. I never see regular spinach for $0.99 beside organic spinach for $1.19. Organic produce is always in its own section to prevent easy comparison. Whereas I can decide between romaine lettuce and spinach based on looking at the prices where they sit right next to each other and conveniently choose whichever is best for me, I cannot compare organics so conveniently. The grocery stores arrange their displays to suggest that the choice of organic or regular is the important factor, rather than which will give me the most value. The whole thing is clearly designed to minimize rational decision making in the matter.

2. Organic = higher cost, higher ecological impact
I did some thinking a couple years ago and realized that if you traced money through the economy, a unit of money is almost indistinguishable from a unit of ecologic destruction (realizing that can help you see through a LOT of bullshit from all sides about what is actually cheaper or better for the environment). Therefore by necessity organics are ecologically worse, for example because they require more land, more labor, a greater quantity of "organic" chemicals, or simply because they let Raley's employees and owners buy more TV's. On the other hand there are likely unrealized externalizes, especially from pesticides per my thinking, so I am willing to give organic the edge if it is priced competitively.