The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: CopperTex on February 06, 2016, 09:35:25 AM
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Lawyers? Real estate agents maybe? Who hear has a career that they feel like appearances of their car matters and how do they handle it in a mustachian way?
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There was a young fellow mustachian that was at a local meetup who had this issue. He bought a nice older Lexus for something like $7K. He got a deal on it, but still, it solves the problem quite nicely. Buy an older, well maintained car that has timeless panache. Lexus would be a good call since they are glorified Toyotas and the parts are cheap. Reliable too.
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I also think that you overestimate how much someone may care about your car.
Keep it clean and looking "ok" is probably what matters most.
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American luxury cars depreciate very quickly. I know this is NOT Mustachian, but I bought a 2009 Cadillac CTS last year with 24K miles for $18K. New it would have been in the $40K range and the 2015 models were in the $50K-$70K range.
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The best solution for professionals that need an image car:
Have your own professional services business, (maybe on the side), and lease a car, and ONLY use it for work, and charge all the costs to the business expense. If you need it for work, work better pay for it.
Alternative -- if you work downtown for an employer, you can get a ZIP CAR type rental that has mercedes or BMW for the occasional day. SFO, DALLAS and NY type places have sedan car hires with a driver, which really helps your billing rate per hour.
I can't think of any employer that insists on a fancy car for regular use, that does not provide it. Most professionals/ advisors / realtors that need it have their own business income. High end accountants and lawyers employed at mega firms have the clients come to them, or would hire a sedan service.
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In the radical personal finance podcast, he mentioned to just get a used SUV.
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Save up for a 3 or 4 year old fancy car and pay in cash.
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In my experience in the auto business most of my clients who are in need of a presentable car often lease as they get a car expense paid for by their company and if they do not get a car allowance they usually write it off on their taxes as a business expense... I had a very successful financial advisor purchase a vehicle who drove a 1995 Dodge Ram with rust holes and body beat to hell before trading in for a new truck. He said he enjoyed driving the truck to clients homes showing them he was just like them, ordinary guy trying to make a living I guess it made him more relatable....I am a little torn between the topic as being a professional I believe you should dress/drive the part to an extent ( I am by no means saying driving a brand new car).
Is driving an old beater going to cost you a sale or prospect? Even if you have a reputation as a successful professional in your field? Hey wait until you meet this Mr. Jones he is the best lawyer in town and then he pulls up in a POS? Where do you draw the line?
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I don't understand why you believe professionals need nice cars to present themselves well. Do they do business with their clients in their cars? Most of my clients don't see my car at all. I drive to their office, I go see them, my car is left at the parking lot. One did ask me what I drove, I told him Honda, and he said he felt more comfortable with me driving a Honda then driving a Lexus, he said I was more trust worthy than someone driving a Lexus trying to show off.
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I don't understand why you believe professionals need nice cars to present themselves well. Do they do business with their clients in their cars? Most of my clients don't see my car at all. I drive to their office, I go see them, my car is left at the parking lot. One did ask me what I drove, I told him Honda, and he said he felt more comfortable with me driving a Honda then driving a Lexus, he said I was more trust worthy than someone driving a Lexus trying to show off.
I didn't say believe they need nice cars to present themselves well...they need something presentable(something that doesn't have a tape job to fix the bumper or rust everywhere) And yes a number of professional do host prospects in their vehicle taking them to meeting, conference, lunch, golf course, etc.
I totally agree with the fact of driving the Honda instead of showing off driving a Lexus.
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I'd buy an old luxury/classic car in mint condition and try to project an image somewhere between waspy old money and Don Draper.
And obviously treat it as a business expense.
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There was a young fellow mustachian that was at a local meetup who had this issue. He bought a nice older Lexus for something like $7K. He got a deal on it, but still, it solves the problem quite nicely. Buy an older, well maintained car that has timeless panache. Lexus would be a good call since they are glorified Toyotas and the parts are cheap. Reliable too.
This.
I have an Acura for the same reasons.
I don't understand why you believe professionals need nice cars to present themselves well. Do they do business with their clients in their cars? Most of my clients don't see my car at all. I drive to their office, I go see them, my car is left at the parking lot. One did ask me what I drove, I told him Honda, and he said he felt more comfortable with me driving a Honda then driving a Lexus, he said I was more trust worthy than someone driving a Lexus trying to show off.
In some businesses, it's important to convey the image of success. Regardless of how we feel about cars suggesting success, in many cases, it does. Before I bought my expensive fancy car (pre-Mustachian days), I interviewed and showed up to my first week of work in a fancy borrowed car. There is absolutely no doubt that seeing that car increased the offer that my employer offered.
And yes, I have picked up my boss at the airport, driven him to client sites with me, and I've also regularly transported CFOs in my car to meetings. It's now 9 years later and I have the same car, even though I have a different job/client. I keep it clean and people still comment on it when they see it in the parking lot.
Sorry to say this, but image does matter sometimes.
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I'd probably go with a "cheap" luxury car like a used Acura. A lot of non-luxury brand cars can be crazy nice too if you get one with an upgraded trim package.
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There was a young fellow mustachian that was at a local meetup who had this issue. He bought a nice older Lexus for something like $7K. He got a deal on it, but still, it solves the problem quite nicely. Buy an older, well maintained car that has timeless panache. Lexus would be a good call since they are glorified Toyotas and the parts are cheap. Reliable too.
This.
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Lawyers? Real estate agents maybe? Who hear has a career that they feel like appearances of their car matters and how do they handle it in a mustachian way?
The same way they deal with shoes, suits and shirts?
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My fiancee bought a 2003 Acura and the thing is SHARP. It doesn't look that old and runs beautifully. He paid around $6000 for it and it looks expensive. Very few people have any idea it isn't practically new.
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My aunt who moved from a big city to a small town and semi-retired at 50 was a partner in a major law firm. She wore Brooks Brothers suits and the like, but she also enjoyed joking with the partner whose parking space was next to hers that his Jaguar had better not ding her 20 year old Honda Civic wagon. I'm not sure any of the clients had any clue what she drove. Carefully consider which aspects of appearance are actually essential to your specific career.
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i don't worry about what my car says about my job, since it's how I get to and from work and what I use on the weekends. A lot of students and faculty here drive nicer cars, and I know many of them are in silly debt. One woman pulls up in a brand new mercedes, that she got a deal on because it was a test driver. whatever. I know she lives in a tiny apartment because she can't buy a house and eats only fast food because she can't cook, and can't do anything because she doesn't have the money.
We have students spending 120k to get an education (not a terrible investment) but driving 60k corvette. working full time on top of school, still can't make ends meet, and has no idea why. I see my 8 year old truck (bought at 5 years old, and has actually APPRECIATED in value since I bought it) as a way back and forth to the job. My performance at work has been consistently better than those that drive nicer cars. that always helps, too
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I think the world of people for whom this matters is much, much narrower than people think. I'm a biglaw lawyer and don't own a car at all, because why on earth would I own a car when public transit and my feet can get me anywhere I need to go (and parking said car would cost $250 a month at home, another $20 a day at work, etc...) If I need a car for some kind of client visit in the suburbs (something that has never happened and I do not believe has ever happened to anyone else), I'll rent a decent one for that day.
I can see it mattering for on-site sales and the like.
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It does depend on the job. Most of my clients were not-for-profits, and I often heard them speak disparagingly of the fancy cars their consultants drove. On the other hand, they loved my bright yellow Ford Focus hatchback named Eggbert, and would ask after him by name: "How is Eggbert?" I miss Eggbert.
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I think the world of people for whom this matters is much, much narrower than people think. I'm a biglaw lawyer and don't own a car at all, because why on earth would I own a car when public transit and my feet can get me anywhere I need to go (and parking said car would cost $250 a month at home, another $20 a day at work, etc...) If I need a car for some kind of client visit in the suburbs (something that has never happened and I do not believe has ever happened to anyone else), I'll rent a decent one for that day.
I can see it mattering for on-site sales and the like.
Why would you drive yourself? Get a driver so you can bill in the car. This should apply to meetings in the city as well.
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I think the world of people for whom this matters is much, much narrower than people think. I'm a biglaw lawyer and don't own a car at all, because why on earth would I own a car when public transit and my feet can get me anywhere I need to go (and parking said car would cost $250 a month at home, another $20 a day at work, etc...) If I need a car for some kind of client visit in the suburbs (something that has never happened and I do not believe has ever happened to anyone else), I'll rent a decent one for that day.
I can see it mattering for on-site sales and the like.
Why would you drive yourself? Get a driver so you can bill in the car. This should apply to meetings in the city as well.
Ha. I'm not in a biglaw field where there is quite the same level of billing pressure, and most of what I do requires there to be excel sheets and the like in front of me. I know some people can work on that type of stuff in a car, but it would be a pretty bad leadin to the meeting if I threw up right before because of motion sickness;)
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I carry clients to lunch about twice a week. I have a two year old base model Altima. You can pick them up for around $10k. It averages 35 mpg and can comfortably sit 4 adults. I keep in clean and waxed. I even had a client a couple of weeks ago ask if it was new. My business partner likes more flashy cars. He buys 5 year old luxury cars, then drives them for 7-10 years. His latest is a 2011 Jaguar XF that he picked up for about $20k.
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The only people I see this really applying to are people in finance (usually the sales side). I have a friend who sells mutual fund to brokers and this is an issue that comes up sometimes. The situation is they think in the exact opposite way anyone here would think. They see a car as a first impression when they go to make a sale. They figure if they roll up in a luxury vehicle then it gives off an image of success, which to the people they are selling to, it very well may. The second issue is that in the financial field everyone has an ego, especially when it comes to sales. Having the more expensive car is a way of winning a few precious ego points and that's what they thrive off of.
I'm sure they're exceptions, but in that world things are very different than they are here. Those guys (and I'm sure some gals) look at money like some people look at drugs. They're addicted and do anything they can get their next hit. Even if it's something as irrational as buying a ridiculous car so they can "improve their image"
I also see this commonly when I come across contractors with giant jacked up F-350's slathered in giant decals for their roofing business. I can't for the life of me figure out why they think that's a good image builder, when in reality it's a walking advertisement for how poorly they handle their business funds.
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My aunt who moved from a big city to a small town and semi-retired at 50 was a partner in a major law firm. She wore Brooks Brothers suits and the like, but she also enjoyed joking with the partner whose parking space was next to hers that his Jaguar had better not ding her 20 year old Honda Civic wagon. I'm not sure any of the clients had any clue what she drove. Carefully consider which aspects of appearance are actually essential to your specific career.
This. If you're in Biglaw or any law firm that services wealthy clients (individuals or corps) your image matters, although not in the way most people realize. For example you don't want to drive a super luxurious car--you want something classy and understated. The same goes for suits--conservative and dark is in, expensive and flashy is out. There are two reasons why this is the case: (1) you want to reflect the values of your client base. wealthy companies/people abhor conspicuous consumption and (2) you want to avoid looking "richer" than the client to avoid hurting their feelings or making them wonder if your lavish consumption is funded by overcharging clients.
(However this general principle doesn't hold if you service clients from a lower socioeconomic background. To them it's important to appear successful by displaying outward signs of wealth.)
Also keep in mind that a lot of attorneys justify lavish consumption on cars and clothes for marketing reasons, but it's just a really big rationalization. Usually the driving force behind it is the same driving force that led them to law school--they've designed their lives to impress other people.
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I'd buy an old luxury/classic car in mint condition and try to project an image somewhere between waspy old money and Don Draper.
Exactly. The Mercedes W123 (http://oppositelock.kinja.com/my-1984-mercedes-benz-300td-reviewed-1578712707) or W124 (http://www.carlustblog.com/2009/04/mercedesbenz-300e-w124-eclass-1986-1995.html) is the perfect car for that situation: luxurious, built like a tank (and much cheaper to fix than newer Mercedes), available with a (relatively) frugal turbodiesel engine and sometimes even a manual transmission. What more could you want?
The key, of course, is it's gotta be mint -- it has to come across as "classic," not "old." Think like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPS02EFgdfE).
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I have an Acura for the same reasons.
One reason I like my Acura is that it never feels out of place. You can drive through a wealthy area or go to a fancy restaurant/shopping area, and never feel like your car screams "outsider". You can also go to "normal" places and not feel flashy or show-offy. And the car comes with basically the same running costs as the average Honda Accord, plus low depreciation. Mine's worth probably 50% of what I paid after 4.5 years and 75k miles.
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I'd buy an old luxury/classic car in mint condition and try to project an image somewhere between waspy old money and Don Draper.
Exactly. The Mercedes W123 (http://oppositelock.kinja.com/my-1984-mercedes-benz-300td-reviewed-1578712707) or W124 (http://www.carlustblog.com/2009/04/mercedesbenz-300e-w124-eclass-1986-1995.html) is the perfect car for that situation: luxurious, built like a tank (and much cheaper to fix than newer Mercedes), available with a (relatively) frugal turbodiesel engine and sometimes even a manual transmission. What more could you want?
The key, of course, is it's gotta be mint -- it has to come across as "classic," not "old." Think like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPS02EFgdfE).
Oh man. I'd throw away all my principles and buy a Disney timeshare on top of a Florida sinkhole from anyone who picks me up with that interior and upholstery.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/amiay5hixeyfneqyjsbj.jpg)
Timeshare salesmen are probably driving leased Lexuses though.
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I'd buy an old luxury/classic car in mint condition and try to project an image somewhere between waspy old money and Don Draper.
Exactly. The Mercedes W123 (http://oppositelock.kinja.com/my-1984-mercedes-benz-300td-reviewed-1578712707) or W124 (http://www.carlustblog.com/2009/04/mercedesbenz-300e-w124-eclass-1986-1995.html) is the perfect car for that situation: luxurious, built like a tank (and much cheaper to fix than newer Mercedes), available with a (relatively) frugal turbodiesel engine and sometimes even a manual transmission. What more could you want?
The key, of course, is it's gotta be mint -- it has to come across as "classic," not "old." Think like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPS02EFgdfE).
Oh man. I'd throw away all my principles and buy a Disney timeshare on top of a Florida sinkhole from anyone who picks me up with that interior and upholstery.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/amiay5hixeyfneqyjsbj.jpg)
Timeshare salesmen are probably driving leased Lexuses though.
Ick.
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I'd buy an old luxury/classic car in mint condition and try to project an image somewhere between waspy old money and Don Draper.
Assuming you're actually in a position that needs a good looking vehicle and not one where you think you need a good looking car but really don't, there are a few good loopholes - the above being the biggest.
Drive a mid-90s BMW or Mercedes, and keep it immaculate. Mechanically, exterior, interior.
You can go anywhere in one of those. Just pretend to be a car guy/gal, and know enough to make it sound good.
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(However this general principle doesn't hold if you service clients from a lower socioeconomic background. To them it's important to appear successful by displaying outward signs of wealth.)
I once worked for a plaintiff side medical malpractice firm that had extremely shady business behaviors. The offices were lavish with marble floors and fireplaces, expensive Oriental rugs, etc. They drove top-of-the-line cars. Their client base was mostly drawn from people in the lower socioeconomic strata, and I guess these kinds of trappings impressed them. However, having worked for them, I know that they charged their lunches to files every single day, even if they were eating just across the street, charged for every single fax and photocopy etc.. IOW, they nickel-and-dimed their clients, which reduced the size of the checks their clients received when they won their cases. I lasted there about five months - and if I ever needed the services of an attorney who charged on a contingency fee basis, you can bet that I would ask a lot of questions about whether they were going to be charging for things like this. (The law firm I work for now does not charge for regular mailings, faxes, phone calls and photocopies unless the number is excessive, which they determine on a case-by-case basis.) I think it does indeed depend on your client base whether having the trappings of wealth impresses them or turns them off. I would wonder if clients were being overcharged in order to allow these professionals to afford their Jaguars and their Mont Blanc pens. Someone else might think, "Gee, these guys must be very successful to make so much money."
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Drive a mid-90s BMW or Mercedes, and keep it immaculate. Mechanically, exterior, interior.
As a car guy, not a bad plan at all, however don't be surprised if that costs as much or more than keeping a late-model Japanese car on the road. Old BMWs and MBs are generally robust, but lots of them have 1-2 "fatal flaws" that cost thousands upon thousands to right. For instance, the 80s/90s MB E-Class, an otherwise rock-solid car, has an HVAC system that goes bad and a wiring harness that disintegrates. Between those two, you could be in for $10k of repairs if you lack the skills to DIY (and almost everyone lacks the skills to DIY those, especially on a car they depend on to drive to work in the morning, these are not Saturday afternoon jobs).
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If going for a nice luxury vehicle I would avoid BMW they are usually very unreliable.
Lexus is reliable and I would look for a used one that is 4-5 year old...you can get some models for well under 20k.
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I knew a lady who was a lawyer at a Big Law firm in SF.
Apparently if you worked at the "hippie tree hugger environmentalist" firm in SF, a Prius was an acceptable vehicle due to the mission (she felt she needed a luxury car at her firm). But that was a few years ago- now I suppose you "need" a Tesla at that firm.
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If going for a nice luxury vehicle I would avoid BMW they are usually very unreliable.
It's worth emphasizing that if you go German, you should do research first and pick the least-complicated model (and trim level) you can find. I suspect an E30 3-series would be a lot less unreasonable to maintain than an E46, for example.
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You can get a late 1990s Mercedes-Benz E320 WAGON 7-SEAT/AWD/Leather/Sunroof, perfect for that long road trip you're planning to do, for under $6K, or a 1998 Volvo V40 WAGON for even cheaper, both in great condition. The E320 is one of the 10 best vehicles recommended for extended overland travel. Or a late 1990s Mercedes-Benz SLK230 Kompressor Convertible can be found for around $8-9K. Just use it as little as possible in the city.
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You can get a late 1990s Mercedes-Benz E320 WAGON 7-SEAT/AWD/Leather/Sunroof, perfect for that long road trip you're planning to do, for under $6K, or a 1998 Volvo V40 WAGON for even cheaper, both in great condition. The E320 is one of the 10 best vehicles recommended for extended overland travel. Or a late 1990s Mercedes-Benz SLK230 Kompressor Convertible can be found for around $8-9K. Just use it as little as possible in the city.
With 20y/o German cars the purchase price is simply a small downpayment on future repairs and maintenance. In fact, the era you suggest, late 90s, is basically known as THE WORST for Mercedes cars. MB really took a dive on quality around the Daimler-Chrysler years, late-90s until about 2005 or so. I'd avoid any of their cars from this era.
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Yup, older car, well maintained, and well detailed. I have an 8 year old german car, that looks like it is brand new.
I would start with finding the best honest mechanic you can find that is so clutch (pun intended).
Did you see the drive free cars post on the MMM site? Its amazing what people throw away and you can move up quickly in car with little cash. Reminds me of the infamous craigslist barterers.
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Yeah, my dad (a sales guy) has bought many two-year-old Acuras and kept them for several years. He's not super-mustachian (he certainly has bought a new car or two over his lifetime... probably even a new luxury car once or twice), and doesn't understand why I drive an 8-year-old Yaris, but it's a pretty good compromise for someone in an image-conscious profession.
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Many of us take clients to lunch, pick up clients to show them properties and projects, etc., so a nice vehicle is important.
I've always driven late model pickup trucks. Most importantly, you need to keep it washed and looking nice inside and out.
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Most importantly, you need to keep it washed and looking nice inside and out.
^^ That's really the important part. As long as the car looks nice, for the 99% case, it's fine.
One thing I would suggest against is low slung sports cars if you need to carry people. Not everyone can get in and out of a car where your butt is practically rubbing the ground. And, even if they can, it may not be graceful. I wouldn't ask a woman in a skirt and heels to get into an RX-7, for instance, unless she'd done it before.
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My husband is a realtor and drives a 2006 Prius with 260k+ miles. No dents, dings, chipped paint, or tape but it probably does need to go through the car wash and the vacuums before he picks up a client.
Most of his clients are interested in the houses he is showing them and not the car he is driving.
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I had an interesting discussion about this with my real estate agent. He said there is a belief among agents that a fancy car means they are successful, therefore a lot of agents bought fancy cars in order to impress their clients. He drove a Honda, btw.
I thought that was whack. On the list of reasons why I buy a house or not, the type of car the agent drives comes in at about zero on the priority list.
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Really what it boils down to is, people who care about status will notice what you drive, people who don't care won't notice. This, of course, assumes you have a clean and well maintained vehicle.
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In my experience, realtors absolutely must have a nice, comfortable car, but it doesn't have to be high-end. It has to be clean and have a nice roomy backseat. My mom is a retired realtor, and I recall once she bought an economy car hoping to save money. She replaced it after six months and bough a pre-owned sedan that wasn't exactly her type of car, but she considered a tool of the trade. It worked out for me as I was turning 16 and got the first car as a hand-me-down.
I've worked with both good and bad realtors, and found that good realtors don't drive crummy old cars.
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These type of discussions always remind me of this cartoon.
http://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences5/suit (http://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences5/suit)
Where I live, most people don't trust(maybe not the right word) a guy in a suit and/or fancy car. It depends on the location and clientele. As others have mentioned, for some a fancy car is a good thing, for others it's off-putting.
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The wealthiest person I know who works in 'sales' drives a Toyota Camry. He is a financial planner and he is bringing in over $500k/year.
He meets with millionaires on a daily basis. Guess what... millionaires don't drive BMWs. People who wish they were do.
His clients probably like the fact that he drives a Toyota. He works in a fairly rural area and he doesn't flaunt his wealth. Well he also has a Corvette, but he doesn't drive that to his office.
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The wealthiest person I know who works in 'sales' drives a Toyota Camry. He is a financial planner and he is bringing in over $500k/year.
He meets with millionaires on a daily basis. Guess what... millionaires don't drive BMWs. People who wish they were do.
His clients probably like the fact that he drives a Toyota. He works in a fairly rural area and he doesn't flaunt his wealth. Well he also has a Corvette, but he doesn't drive that to his office.
This is so true. My former boss is an old-money attorney. His money goes way back to the early 1800s. He isn't impressed by his own wealth or anyone else's. He drives a crappy car and doesn't even notice. Once I had to ride along with him to visit a client. He drove an old beater van that he had driven his son and his buddies in to a soccer match the day before. The thing smelled to high heaven of stale burgers and fries and guess what - there were burger and fries wrappers and bags all over the floor. It was enough to gag a maggot. The next time we had to visit the client, I drove him in my Honda Civic. Forty minutes in the car with the dirt and stench of his vehicle was way too much for me. This guy has inherited wealth of over 10 million dollars. He doesn't need to prove a thing to anybody. But he's a slob about his vehicle and his office, although he is always dressed impeccably.
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He meets with millionaires on a daily basis. Guess what... millionaires don't drive BMWs. People who wish they were do.
I know and work with dozens of millionaires (my office is in the executive hallway of a F100 subsidiary). Some drive nice cars. Some drive shitty cars. Some pay cash. Some lease. Some finance. One drove a 10y/o Chrysler Sebring and a 20 y/o BMW he bought restored, and then went out one day and bought a $120k Porsche on a whim (5+ years ago, he still drives it). Several of them do, in fact, drive BMWs. But most of them drive Mercedes. Our CEO drives a Mercedes, our CFO drives a Porsche, the Executive VPGM of my division drives a BMW. All made $1M+ last year.
Generalizations are fun.
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Impressions are also hard to determine. Working with a client, one of the other consultants had a brand new Tesla and he felt it was important for his image as a successful consultant that knows what he is talking about. Talking to the client about random chit chat, the Tesla would come up and it was clear she thought they were paying way too much and that his Tesla reinforced that impression.
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Actually if you read The Millionaire Next Door most don't drive a BMW..typical car was a Ford F150 or something like that.
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Amongst people who bothered to fill out a survey and/or meet face to face with the MND authors. There's a TON of bias in that study.
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I know plenty of rich people and they don’t drive all drive fancy Porches or BMWs and they are worth well over a million dollars.
You also seem to be confusing wealth with income. I know people that make a high income and look “rich” but when it comes to wealth they have nothing but piles of debt and are just a lost job from it going to crap.
All of that is for another post.
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My husband drives a fully loaded 3 year old Mazda sedan. It doesn't look flashy from the street, but it has all the bells and whistles you'd expect an attorney to have and he gets it washed/vacuumed regularly. I think it's just as nice inside as the Audis or BMWs other attorneys drive but we paid half what they did. I'm grateful I'm in government and will keep trucking in my unloaded hatchback for as long as it runs.
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This is so true. My former boss is an old-money attorney. His money goes way back to the early 1800s. He isn't impressed by his own wealth or anyone else's. He drives a crappy car and doesn't even notice. Once I had to ride along with him to visit a client. He drove an old beater van that he had driven his son and his buddies in to a soccer match the day before. The thing smelled to high heaven of stale burgers and fries and guess what - there were burger and fries wrappers and bags all over the floor. It was enough to gag a maggot. The next time we had to visit the client, I drove him in my Honda Civic. Forty minutes in the car with the dirt and stench of his vehicle was way too much for me. This guy has inherited wealth of over 10 million dollars. He doesn't need to prove a thing to anybody. But he's a slob about his vehicle and his office, although he is always dressed impeccably.
Not exactly the kind of impression that I want to make on my clients. But if you're that rich, then you can afford to be "eccentric"
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Actually if you read The Millionaire Next Door most don't drive a BMW..typical car was a Ford F150 or something like that.
Yes it is !
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(However this general principle doesn't hold if you service clients from a lower socioeconomic background. To them it's important to appear successful by displaying outward signs of wealth.)
I once worked for a plaintiff side medical malpractice firm that had extremely shady business behaviors. The offices were lavish with marble floors and fireplaces, expensive Oriental rugs, etc. They drove top-of-the-line cars. Their client base was mostly drawn from people in the lower socioeconomic strata, and I guess these kinds of trappings impressed them. However, having worked for them, I know that they charged their lunches to files every single day, even if they were eating just across the street, charged for every single fax and photocopy etc.. IOW, they nickel-and-dimed their clients, which reduced the size of the checks their clients received when they won their cases. I lasted there about five months - and if I ever needed the services of an attorney who charged on a contingency fee basis, you can bet that I would ask a lot of questions about whether they were going to be charging for things like this. (The law firm I work for now does not charge for regular mailings, faxes, phone calls and photocopies unless the number is excessive, which they determine on a case-by-case basis.) I think it does indeed depend on your client base whether having the trappings of wealth impresses them or turns them off. I would wonder if clients were being overcharged in order to allow these professionals to afford their Jaguars and their Mont Blanc pens. Someone else might think, "Gee, these guys must be very successful to make so much money."
I didn't see this until just now. This is just terrible--low income clients are often screwed over by the system but then on top of that, they get screwed over by their own attorneys. Makes me so angry.
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I agree that a good, used, classic luxury car is a great solution. You can find amazing deals on slightly older cars that are well maintained. The depreciation on them is ridiculous, as I suppose lots of people in the luxury markets always want the latest and greatest. Last year I bought a 2006 used Jaguar that looks like new, with low mileage, for only $8k. It's been a great car for me.
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My friend just picked up a 1999 Jaguar XJR for $3750. CLEAN interior/exterior with just under 100k miles on the motor. This is a car you can feel good about driving and for that price it's an ABSOLUTE steal =D
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Former chairman of a prominent NYC law firm makes 5+mil a year (that's over 400k per month) and drives a Subaru Forester and washes his own dishes. That should put the attorney needs fancy car fallacy to rest.
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I am expected to drive a shitty car. That is part of the reason why I chose my profession.
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I'd buy an old luxury/classic car in mint condition and try to project an image somewhere between waspy old money and Don Draper.
Exactly. The Mercedes W123 (http://oppositelock.kinja.com/my-1984-mercedes-benz-300td-reviewed-1578712707) or W124 (http://www.carlustblog.com/2009/04/mercedesbenz-300e-w124-eclass-1986-1995.html) is the perfect car for that situation: luxurious, built like a tank (and much cheaper to fix than newer Mercedes), available with a (relatively) frugal turbodiesel engine and sometimes even a manual transmission. What more could you want?
The key, of course, is it's gotta be mint -- it has to come across as "classic," not "old." Think like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPS02EFgdfE).
have been reading this site for a couple months and registered to say that I am doing exactly this. The "Roger" clip is spot on, and is one I send to my friends on what seems like a frequent basis. they rarely listen.
I'm an attorney at a small/mid-size defense firm in Los Angeles. I have some private clients but mostly rely on the firm's large insurance defense business that keeps us profitable. Most of those clients are individual insureds whose policy is paying for me and thus have little say, if any, in their choice of attorney. I do have to care somewhat though, as I imagine someone telling their adjuster "that guy you hired showed up to inspect my property in a worn out 1992 Buick" might not go over that well.
I've avoided too much flash, but currently have a 2013 Audi A3 diesel on which I have a car loan that thankfully I will be getting rid of shortly when it is bought back by VW/Audi per the terms of the settlement of the diesel scandal lawsuits. Having recently stumbled on this site, I thought this was the perfect opportunity to use the surplus I'll be getting from the settlement to fund a cash purchase of a used car. But with my profession, and moreover, with my lifelong auto enthusiasm to satiate, a completely-utilitarian and sensible pick wasn't going to cut it. I settled on a W123 and I think it fits the needs perfectly. Oh also, I'm doing nearly all the work on it myself, which many in my profession probably couldn't say they're capable of. So that makes a difference too, since parts on a Honda would certainly be cheaper, but I can balance it out somewhat with labor, and the happiness I get from learning new skills whenever I get to repairs that I haven't tackled before.
I picked this 1984 300d up in July for $5k with 183k miles on it. It's not mint, but it's close enough that it functions as a totally serviceable daily driver and so far I've had nothing but compliments from the two clients I've visited driving it. The key was finding one with an interior in good shape, as there are countless examples on Craigslist for $3k or less with interiors that are complete disasters. I feel like I may have overpaid slightly, but after watching the LA market for W123s for about 2 years, it appeared that a decent interior meant a jump in the price bracket to the $5-10k range.
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/c2a0fb9991ca7611f09a51a8613dc078/tumblr_o9eitpPPji1r8bgano5_400.jpg) (https://67.media.tumblr.com/7a233f6fd1bc8599e2d0d09a36351245/tumblr_o9eitpPPji1r8bgano8_400.jpg)
Once my Audi is gone, I plan to budget for repairs on the Merc but those numbers will be drastically reduced from what the car payment was on the Audi.
It was cheap to buy, is cheap to insure, gets decent enough mileage, and has world-renowned long-term endurance/reliability if properly maintained. Yet, if kept looking nice, this car will project "connoisseur" in a way that I think Roger would approve of, without the steep buy-in of the average connoisseur car.
This was right after I purchased it:
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/6c7b0d688f4f14d3549e7a0f8fed5e3d/tumblr_oamhyxdIxc1qa8z34o1_540.jpg)
And this is after initial work (suspension, lighting, and bringing basic maintenance up to date).
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/a6b3f85923a4e65fe5faaf3fba8f705b/tumblr_obnnk3rQxN1qa8z34o2_540.jpg)
Next is putting the alloy wheels it originally came with back on with a fresh set of tires now that I've completely redone the front suspension and put it into alignment (had to pretty much replace everything). I'm having the wheels powder coated which I think should really help project the clean/mint condition look along with the clean face the Euro headlights/turn signals give. There are so many of these running around LA with wheels covered in age and brake dust that clean ones should really make a difference. Some people like the hubcaps but they're not to my taste (and not what this one originally came with anyway).
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Lawyer or RE agent needs a "nice car"? They just need to get from A to B reliably in something clean and presentable. A professional driver (of people, not goods) is the only job I can think of where a nice car is required, or at least very beneficial.
A few grand can buy a reliable and presentable car, perfectly suitable for a "professional". I think less of those who borrow money for a vehicle, buy a new vehicle very few years, or are too dumb to learn how to maintain their vehicle.
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Road warrior here. I drive a Honda Fit. Most of my clients are business owners. As such, they're usually impressed with the economy of such a choice and ask things like "what kind of gas mileage do you get?"
Some of these people are multi-millionaires. Occasionally they are driving fancy cars, but most drive economy cars. And most of my clients that have a lot of money don't show it off because they don't want anyone to know how much they have.
The downside if I drove a fancy car is that the client may assume they're funding my fancy-pants lifestyle.
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Just buy like 3-4 cheap cars and weld them together into one super car
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I know and work with dozens of millionaires (my office is in the executive hallway of a F100 subsidiary). Some drive nice cars. Some drive shitty cars. Some pay cash. Some lease. Some finance. One drove a 10y/o Chrysler Sebring and a 20 y/o BMW he bought restored, and then went out one day and bought a $120k Porsche on a whim (5+ years ago, he still drives it). Several of them do, in fact, drive BMWs. But most of them drive Mercedes. Our CEO drives a Mercedes, our CFO drives a Porsche, the Executive VPGM of my division drives a BMW. All made $1M+ last year.
Generalizations are fun.
Does earning more than $1M in a year make someone a millionaire?
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Im a bit of a part time pimp... kinda thinking my BMW is part of the deal
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I'd buy an old luxury/classic car in mint condition and try to project an image somewhere between waspy old money and Don Draper.
Exactly. The Mercedes W123 (http://oppositelock.kinja.com/my-1984-mercedes-benz-300td-reviewed-1578712707) or W124 (http://www.carlustblog.com/2009/04/mercedesbenz-300e-w124-eclass-1986-1995.html) is the perfect car for that situation: luxurious, built like a tank (and much cheaper to fix than newer Mercedes), available with a (relatively) frugal turbodiesel engine and sometimes even a manual transmission. What more could you want?
The key, of course, is it's gotta be mint -- it has to come across as "classic," not "old." Think like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPS02EFgdfE).
have been reading this site for a couple months and registered to say that I am doing exactly this. The "Roger" clip is spot on, and is one I send to my friends on what seems like a frequent basis. they rarely listen.
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/a6b3f85923a4e65fe5faaf3fba8f705b/tumblr_obnnk3rQxN1qa8z34o2_540.jpg)
Awesome! And nice car!
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GF and I solved this with a nice-looking newish car with a shitload of very-well-maintained highway miles on it. We just bought a 2009 Hyundai Accent with 250,000 miles for $1000.
It'll be nice for her to drive up to her clients in that instead of our big old ugly-and-rumbly '92 Buick station wagon we lost a month ago.
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Lawyer or RE agent needs a "nice car"? They just need to get from A to B reliably in something clean and presentable.
In many cases, that won't be enough.
I got to witness proof first hand last week. At a recent site visit, defense counsel showed up driving a beige Toyota Camry that looked about 10+ years old. A comment was made by a bystander "well, I don't think they're paying him enough." I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment, but the fact remains that people like this exist, they have these opinions, and they may make hiring decisions or be potential clients, so govern your choices accordingly.
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I am part of the young professional crew that needs a presentable car and there are definitely easy ways to do this without breaking the bank.
I drive an 9 year old Japanese luxury car that people think is a year or two old because of the general upkeep and quality of paint. This is strictly my work car and I baby it for those reasons and I rarely drive it outside of work. My weekend warrior is my wife's 12 year old Toyota that we share otherwise.
Generalizations are cast wide and presentation (from car, to body language, to clothing) can very much make or break your deals/career regardless of what the masses think. The good thing is there are still "mustachian" ways of achieving the look. It does suck that we are judged on appearance and perceived wealth from material possessions, but it has happened since forever and will continue into eternity. Embrace it, don't fall victim to it and enjoy. It's actually fun to look better off than someone who spent 5x to 10x what you did, but perceived $ value image is the same lol
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I understand that people might have 10+ year old cars that are in excellent shape as "if they were new." But I promise you - no one is going to honestly think a 10+ year old car is a year or two old if they know anything about cars. Nearly every model I can think of has changed design at least once or twice in the last 10 years. Jeep Wrangler is about the only one I can think of that was last changed exterior wise in 2007. Granted it has received different interior and engine upgrades.
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I understand that people might have 10+ year old cars that are in excellent shape as "if they were new." But I promise you - no one is going to honestly think a 10+ year old car is a year or two old if they know anything about cars. Nearly every model I can think of has changed design at least once or twice in the last 10 years. Jeep Wrangler is about the only one I can think of that was last changed exterior wise in 2007. Granted it has received different interior and engine upgrades.
On the bright side, people who know about cars are (in my estimation, at least) more likely to realize how smart owning the 10+ year old car is, and appreciate (a) your sense of taste in carefully picking the right one (which is why this strategy doesn't work with a Camry), and (b) your diligence in keeping it immaculate.
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I understand that people might have 10+ year old cars that are in excellent shape as "if they were new." But I promise you - no one is going to honestly think a 10+ year old car is a year or two old if they know anything about cars. Nearly every model I can think of has changed design at least once or twice in the last 10 years. Jeep Wrangler is about the only one I can think of that was last changed exterior wise in 2007. Granted it has received different interior and engine upgrades.
I have a very ordinary older VW grocery getter. After I bought it I had a couple of people who commented that they thought VW went out of business when they quit selling aircooled Beetles in the USA. This was a decade or so ago. Older folks that didn't pay attention to the brands of cars around them.
People can be very myopic about some things.
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I understand that people might have 10+ year old cars that are in excellent shape as "if they were new." But I promise you - no one is going to honestly think a 10+ year old car is a year or two old if they know anything about cars. Nearly every model I can think of has changed design at least once or twice in the last 10 years. Jeep Wrangler is about the only one I can think of that was last changed exterior wise in 2007. Granted it has received different interior and engine upgrades.
You've entirely missed the point.
There are many decade old cars that have aged well and look presentable, whether they look 1-2 years old or 5-6 years old but are 15 years old. 90%+ of the population wouldn't know either way...is it shiny? Yes, is it clean? Yes....that's about as detail oriented as most people get, with "brand" being up there, but surprisingly not everyone pays attention.
Take a decade old Lexus GS...you think if you told someone it's a 2013 they would question you? Obviously not the point and nobody cares...but to the general public this looks like a relatively new/fancy car, but it's over a decade old:
(http://www.clublexus.com/forums/attachments/gs-3rd-gen-2006-2011/101169d1174169284-gs350-black-new-pic-s-gs350-3.jpg)
We've enjoyed about 2 decades of very similar styling refreshes so many of the redesigns blend from generation to generation. It's not like when we moved from square bodied 80's vehicles into the rounder/more feminine body lines on vehicles in the 90's. Playing off a 1980's car as a 1990's would be next to impossible even to the general population, but playing off a mid 2000's model for a mid '10 model, sure.
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Partially I think it depends if your clients are seeing the outside or inside of your car. For DH, they only ever see the exterior really. We ended up buying a VW Jetta TDI (sigh... recall). It was less than a year old, 30k miles on it. Someone else took the depreciation hit for us. Most importantly, it was the lowest trim level. Looks great on the outside, and no one needs to know you only have pretty basic features. Most people do not pay *that* close of attention. We keep it clean and detailed, and he gets compliments on it all the time. Never mind that my 5 year old truck is worth twice as much money. =P It's the little jetta that gets all the compliments.
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I understand that people might have 10+ year old cars that are in excellent shape as "if they were new." But I promise you - no one is going to honestly think a 10+ year old car is a year or two old if they know anything about cars. Nearly every model I can think of has changed design at least once or twice in the last 10 years. Jeep Wrangler is about the only one I can think of that was last changed exterior wise in 2007. Granted it has received different interior and engine upgrades.
You've entirely missed the point.
Sorry to disagree but I think actually you have missed the point. A 10 year old luxury car like that Lexus may fool some people, but to anyone in the know, a 10 year old luxury car is just old. A 30 year old luxury car is (or at least is more likely to be) a classic.
The point is that while the 10 year old Lexus may well be reasonable and a practical & pragmatic choice, it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny of the kind being discussed here. It may suit your needs, but it fails the "Roger Test."
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We buy luxury cars, but get them after the 3 or 4 year lease, they are really inexpensive compared to the initial price (60k down to 25k) and usually come with an additional 2 to 4 year warranty which you will easily burn thru because usually something goes wrong with them. I usually sell them for a little less than I bought them for after the warranty expires. It works out to probably around 2k a year to drive Porsches and BMWs.
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Sorry to disagree but I think actually you have missed the point. A 10 year old luxury car like that Lexus may fool some people, but to anyone in the know, a 10 year old luxury car is just old. A 30 year old luxury car is (or at least is more likely to be) a classic.
The point is that while the 10 year old Lexus may well be reasonable and a practical & pragmatic choice, it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny of the kind being discussed here. It may suit your needs, but it fails the "Roger Test."
It depends. IMO, a 2006 Lexus ES 350 would fail the Roger Test, while a 2006 Lexus IS 350 with a manual transmission would pass it. (Of course, a 2005 IS 300 would pass by a wider margin.)
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Partially I think it depends if your clients are seeing the outside or inside of your car. For DH, they only ever see the exterior really. We ended up buying a VW Jetta TDI (sigh... recall). It was less than a year old, 30k miles on it. Someone else took the depreciation hit for us. Most importantly, it was the lowest trim level. Looks great on the outside, and no one needs to know you only have pretty basic features. Most people do not pay *that* close of attention. We keep it clean and detailed, and he gets compliments on it all the time. Never mind that my 5 year old truck is worth twice as much money. =P It's the little jetta that gets all the compliments.
What sort of discount did you get? Pre-scandal, TDI VWs had some of the lowest depreciation rates out there and were precisely the sorts of cars that it made basically no sense to buy "nearly new". I'd be shocked if you got a material discount (again assuming you bought pre-scandal) baring some sort of damage, heinous color, etc.
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Partially I think it depends if your clients are seeing the outside or inside of your car. For DH, they only ever see the exterior really. We ended up buying a VW Jetta TDI (sigh... recall). It was less than a year old, 30k miles on it. Someone else took the depreciation hit for us. Most importantly, it was the lowest trim level. Looks great on the outside, and no one needs to know you only have pretty basic features. Most people do not pay *that* close of attention. We keep it clean and detailed, and he gets compliments on it all the time. Never mind that my 5 year old truck is worth twice as much money. =P It's the little jetta that gets all the compliments.
What sort of discount did you get? Pre-scandal, TDI VWs had some of the lowest depreciation rates out there and were precisely the sorts of cars that it made basically no sense to buy "nearly new". I'd be shocked if you got a material discount (again assuming you bought pre-scandal) baring some sort of damage, heinous color, etc.
It was a manual and they were moving into a studio with a new baby and no parking spot. They'd had it on CL for more than a month. We low-balled, and they accepted. Apparently no one likes buying manuals.
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I understand that people might have 10+ year old cars that are in excellent shape as "if they were new." But I promise you - no one is going to honestly think a 10+ year old car is a year or two old if they know anything about cars. Nearly every model I can think of has changed design at least once or twice in the last 10 years. Jeep Wrangler is about the only one I can think of that was last changed exterior wise in 2007. Granted it has received different interior and engine upgrades.
You've entirely missed the point.
Sorry to disagree but I think actually you have missed the point. A 10 year old luxury car like that Lexus may fool some people, but to anyone in the know, a 10 year old luxury car is just old. A 30 year old luxury car is (or at least is more likely to be) a classic.
The point is that while the 10 year old Lexus may well be reasonable and a practical & pragmatic choice, it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny of the kind being discussed here. It may suit your needs, but it fails the "Roger Test."
It's somewhat similar for sports cars, IMO. There's an age where it looks like you're definitely driving it because you want to, and not because you can't afford something newer. This only holds true if it's in excellent condition, of course.
For example, my Toyota (http://i.imgur.com/LqW4Y1a.jpg) is over 25 years old and has north of 260k on it.
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I understand that people might have 10+ year old cars that are in excellent shape as "if they were new." But I promise you - no one is going to honestly think a 10+ year old car is a year or two old if they know anything about cars. Nearly every model I can think of has changed design at least once or twice in the last 10 years. Jeep Wrangler is about the only one I can think of that was last changed exterior wise in 2007. Granted it has received different interior and engine upgrades.
You've entirely missed the point.
Sorry to disagree but I think actually you have missed the point. A 10 year old luxury car like that Lexus may fool some people, but to anyone in the know, a 10 year old luxury car is just old. A 30 year old luxury car is (or at least is more likely to be) a classic.
The point is that while the 10 year old Lexus may well be reasonable and a practical & pragmatic choice, it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny of the kind being discussed here. It may suit your needs, but it fails the "Roger Test."
lol
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Sorry to disagree but I think actually you have missed the point. A 10 year old luxury car like that Lexus may fool some people, but to anyone in the know, a 10 year old luxury car is just old. A 30 year old luxury car is (or at least is more likely to be) a classic.
The point is that while the 10 year old Lexus may well be reasonable and a practical & pragmatic choice, it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny of the kind being discussed here. It may suit your needs, but it fails the "Roger Test."
It depends. IMO, a 2006 Lexus ES 350 would fail the Roger Test, while a 2006 Lexus IS 350 with a manual transmission would pass it. (Of course, a 2005 IS 300 would pass by a wider margin.)
That gen IS350 didn't come in manual.
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Sorry to disagree but I think actually you have missed the point. A 10 year old luxury car like that Lexus may fool some people, but to anyone in the know, a 10 year old luxury car is just old. A 30 year old luxury car is (or at least is more likely to be) a classic.
The point is that while the 10 year old Lexus may well be reasonable and a practical & pragmatic choice, it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny of the kind being discussed here. It may suit your needs, but it fails the "Roger Test."
It depends. IMO, a 2006 Lexus ES 350 would fail the Roger Test, while a 2006 Lexus IS 350 with a manual transmission would pass it. (Of course, a 2005 IS 300 would pass by a wider margin.)
That gen IS350 didn't come in manual.
IS 250, then? I guess that goes to show that I'm not a big fan of Lexus. (This whole analogy would have worked better with BMWs...)
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We've enjoyed about 2 decades of very similar styling refreshes so many of the redesigns blend from generation to generation. It's not like when we moved from square bodied 80's vehicles into the rounder/more feminine body lines on vehicles in the 90's. Playing off a 1980's car as a 1990's would be next to impossible even to the general population, but playing off a mid 2000's model for a mid '10 model, sure.
The point here, I don't think, is to try and claim a 10 year old luxury car is new. It can certainly be well maintained, but it still looks like you're just driving an older car.
Go 20-30 years back? Into the 80s or 90s style, with a well maintained car, both cosmetically and mechanically? That's clearly something you drive because you love that car.
It's somewhat similar for sports cars, IMO. There's an age where it looks like you're definitely driving it because you want to, and not because you can't afford something newer. This only holds true if it's in excellent condition, of course.
Yup. A 90s BMW stands out as a 90s BMW - and if you're still driving it, and it runs great, you're probably doing so because you like that car, not because you can't afford a newer one.
At some point I'm planning to do a frame up restoration on an old RX-7... :)
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Yup. A 90s BMW stands out as a 90s BMW - and if you're still driving it, and it runs great, you're probably doing so because you like that car, not because you can't afford a newer one.
When I eventually need a four-door car, hopefully it will be something like this:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/320is_3-4_ant_destra.jpg/640px-320is_3-4_ant_destra.jpg)
At some point I'm planning to do a frame up restoration on an old RX-7... :)
At the autocross this weekend, there was a guy with a third-gen RX-7. As he was doing his fourth run, the announcer said something like "as the owner of an RX-7 that's capable of doing three autocross runs without catching on fire, this guy's already won."
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At the autocross this weekend, there was a guy with a third-gen RX-7. As he was doing his fourth run, the announcer said something like "as the owner of an RX-7 that's capable of doing three autocross runs without catching on fire, this guy's already won."
I... um.
I may have made some "You know you're an RX-7 owner if..." shirts a long while ago.
One of the entries is, "You carry a fire extinguisher, you've used it on your car, and you still drive that car."
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Lawyers should be more worried about billable hrs. If a lawyer is in the rain making business, the lawyer should be selling her skillset not her ride.
As to real-estate agent both my best agents had crappy cars. I found them based on reviews and recommendations. The one that had a nice car was not worth the commission.
Be the change in the world you want. Judge people based on less material qualities and be less concerned with material qualities.