Author Topic: How do people make $100+ salary?  (Read 59284 times)

sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #400 on: February 02, 2018, 12:06:36 PM »
Oh for fuck's sake. I did not "mention" his book.

No, of course not.  I mentioned it, because I think it's relevant to the topic at hand.  The criticisms of that book are the same criticisms I have advanced in this thread against the people (almost everyone?) that have argued that their talents are genetically determined.  Your talents are not genetically determined!

Let's not turn this into a different debate without a good reason.  We got onto this lengthy tangent because someone suggested that earning $100k just wasn't in the cards for some people in this thread, regardless of how hard they work.  I disagree with that assessment.  I suspect you do too.

From there, the argument seems to have expanded as people rushed to defend the idea that you just can't make $100k no matter what you do.  I suspect that's partly because some of us (myself included) don't make that much and publicly admitting that we don't make that much because of our choices is personally painful.  Much easier to say "I'm just not cut out for it" or "I can't do it because of my genetic background" or "I'm not responsible for my own failures."

Of course, the flip side of that argument is that if you DO make that much, you either believe it is because you are naturally deserving and worthy by virtue of your genetic makeup, or you believe it's because you worked hard and earned it.  The distinction applies to your successes as well as your failures.

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I have not read it, but I am aware of it and also of its failings. Nobody here is making the point that you claim they are making.

I believe you when you say that YOU are not making that point, but I think some folks here certainly are.  jlcnuke, for example, said that some people are genetically incapable of learning some things.  This is the exact same argument used by the Bell Curve, and by early American proponents of slavery who argued that African slaves were suited to (and even preferred!) a life of slavery, and by German sociologists who argued that gypsies were (through no fault of their own) a blight on their Aryan vision of progress.

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Sol, you argue as though you believe that anyone who dares to question your dogma is destined to follow down the path of racism and eugenics. Is it okay for me to believe - not just to say it, but to truly fucking believe - that all people are created equal in worth, even if not in ability?

In this particular case, I think that the commonly held view among Americans about the influence of genetics on abilities is wrong.  It is based on decades-old research and not supported by the modern field of genetics.

As to what you personally believe, of course its fine for you to believe anything you like.  You can truly believe anything (and so can I) and you can express those views here or elsewhere as you see fit (and so can I) and sometimes your views and my views aren't going to align and that's okay too.  I started out by admitting that most people don't share or even understand the modern interpretation of gene expression.  I'm merely highlighting that your learned skills and abilities are not nearly as genetically controlled as you seem to think they are, which is a (slightly) different argument than the one about a person's "worth."

To recap, I'm not saying that everyone is genetically identical.  I'm saying that each individual's DNA is non-deterministic of their abilities, because DNA is not a rote program that specifies who you are.  Parts of it get turned on and off all the time in response to your environment.  None of it records what you learn in life.  It is only a book of possibilities, not a prescription for what you will do in life.  There is no DNA sequence for talent because talent is solely a learned skill, earned with experience.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 01:39:52 PM by sol »

jlcnuke

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #401 on: February 02, 2018, 12:17:41 PM »
Oh for fuck's sake. I did not "mention" his book.



I believe you when you say that YOU are not making that point, but I think some folks here certainly are.  jlcnuke, for example, said that some people are genetically incapable of learning some things.  This is the exact same argument used by the Bell Curve, and by early American proponents of slavery who argued that African serves were suited to a life of slavery, and by German sociologists who argued that gypsies were a blight on their Aryan vision of progress.

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Sol, you argue as though you believe that anyone who dares to question your dogma is destined to follow down the path of racism and eugenics. Is it okay for me to believe - not just to say it, but to truly fucking believe - that all people are created equal in worth, even if not in ability?

I this particular case, I think that the commonly held view among Americans about the influence of genetics on abilities is wrong.  It is based on decades-old research and not supported by the modern field of genetics.

As to what you personally believe, of course its fine for you to believe anything you like.  You can truly believe anything (and so can I) and you can express those views here or elsewhere as you see fit (and so can I) and sometimes your views and my views aren't going to align and that's okay too.  I started out by admitting that most people don't share or even understand the modern interpretation of gene expression.  I'm merely highlighting that your learned skills and abilities are not nearly as genetically controlled as you seem to think they are, which is a (slightly) different argument than the one about a person's "worth."

See, you keep going to racism and eugenics. The simple facts, however, show that people learn at different rates, ranging from "very quickly" to "they will never learn some things". Much of that is determined by genetics and can be completely independent of race and/or sex. That has nothing to do with Nazi's or slavery or any such thing, it's just the facts. I think that's why you qualify most of your statements such as "not nearly as genetically controlled"... because you know that genetics does play a part and it can result in people being much better at something or not being able to do something at all.

That's a far cry from "everyone gets where they get to because of genetics", or "well, I didn't get good at it so I can't do it", or any such frivolous nonsense. The fact remains that genetics impacts a person's ability to learn and that impact can go from "this person can learn anything very quickly" all the way down to "due to their genetics, this person will never master even basic speech" as well as the full spectrum in-between. Modern research still supports that to be true (and it doesn't care what race you are etc).

sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #402 on: February 02, 2018, 12:31:43 PM »
The simple facts, however, show that people learn at different rates, ranging from "very quickly" to "they will never learn some things".

Maybe you missed the discussion above about pedagogy?

I recognize that people learn new skills at different rates.  I disagree that this difference is due to protein synthesis (aka "genes").

For a non-impaired human brain, how quickly you learn a new skill is entirely based on how prepared you are to learn it, which is based on how well you have mastered the prerequisite skills.  That's true at every level from babbling to quarterbacking.

There is no gene for musical ability, or geometry proofs, or a fascination with outer space.  These things are purely 100% learned behaviors, not genetic.  If you are good or bad at any of them, you cannot blame your DNA.  You can blame bad luck, or bad early childhood experiences, or competition from other skills that commanded your attention, but not your DNA.

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Much of that is determined by genetics and can be completely independent of race and/or sex.

Thank you for making this salient point.  Genetic diversity is vast.  We've now sequenced enough different kinds of people to recognize that what we typically call "races" may contain far more genetic variation within the group than between groups.  It's a relatively small number of genes that dictate physical appearances.

Which is part of the reason why so much of this debate is frustrating to me.  Almost nobody outside of this one little slice of the scientific community has any real understanding of the amazing discoveries we've made about genetics in the past 20 years.  And yet people still have strongly held beliefs about human genetic fitness, based on outdated research from people with ugly social agendas.  It's time to let it all go.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 12:35:36 PM by sol »

tooqk4u22

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #403 on: February 02, 2018, 12:36:06 PM »
So the disagreement is that given same effort and circumstance you don't believe a person of average IQ 90-110 will under perform a person with an IQ of 150......and sir is preposterous.

I think you're putting WAAAAY too much credence in IQ tests.  You think that number means anything other than how many right answers you got on a test?

It's intended as an example not confirmation that IQ and the tests are the end all be all, it is simply one commonly accepted indicator of intelligence that most people are aware of. 

IQ is not a measurement like height and weight.  It is not a discrete quantity that can be measured.  It's a skill like your time in the mile run, and it can be trained like any other skill.  How efficiently you train it, just like the run, is based on how well you have previously trained the required base skills.

You keep saying this......that genetics is only for the physical attributes.  Hate to break the news to you, but the brain is a physical attribute.  Some people are born with Yugo and some with a Ferrari... most are born with camry/accord.  What don't you get.....


the time for some to get to that point is incredibly inefficient whereas for others they are worth the investment. 

This part I agree with. 

Good, move along...because Sol your position is clearly inline with this statement as you are not getting the point and your position is so misaligned with reality.


sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #404 on: February 02, 2018, 01:14:32 PM »
your position is so misaligned with reality.

Which part?

Let me try to consolidate a long and diverse debate down to a few key points.  Please tell me which ones you disagree with.

1.  Computer programming, like most skills, is a learned behavior.

2.  Learned behaviors must be learned with practice.

3.  If you are talented at something, it is because you have learned it really well.

That about sums it up, I think.  Everything else here is just some variation of that three step logic chain.  Which one of those is "misaligned with reality"? 

edit: 
4.  being talented at something is a great way to earn $100k/year at it, if that wasn't explicit enough.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 06:53:44 PM by sol »

Eckhart

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #405 on: February 02, 2018, 04:33:44 PM »
Please make a new thread to discuss whatever you want to call your discussion, thank you.

I'm here to learn how to make 100K+ salary =)

jlcnuke

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #406 on: February 02, 2018, 04:38:01 PM »
Please make a new thread to discuss whatever you want to call your discussion, thank you.

I'm here to learn how to make 100K+ salary =)
Join the Navy with a contract to become a nuclear operator. Become a Navy nuclear operator. Get out of the Navy with a bunch of knowledge and experience. Make $100k+ :)

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FrugalToque

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #407 on: February 02, 2018, 06:37:43 PM »
[MOD NOTE:

Let's take the off topic discussion about genes and inheritance somewhere else and keep this thread on topic.

Thanks
Toque]

sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #408 on: February 02, 2018, 06:51:40 PM »
[MOD NOTE:

Let's take the off topic discussion about genes and inheritance somewhere else and keep this thread on topic.

Thanks
Toque]


Seriously? 

I think we've done a pretty good job of keeping this tangent relevant to the question at hand.  It started with the assertion that some people couldn't make $100k, and we've been talking about why we each think that is true or not true. 

Are we seriously moderating topics now for adding that kind of nuance to these discussions?  Are threads only allowed to discuss the narrowest possible interpretation of the question in the thread title?  Are we going to start moderating all of the cryptocurrency threads too, if someone doesn't like hearing dissenting opinions about how awesome/stupid bitcoin is?

SC93

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #409 on: February 02, 2018, 06:58:57 PM »
To the OP, you just have to figure out what works for you. For me, it worked in the house cleaning business. There are some people that can't make $100 a day in the house cleaning business but it worked for me and I ended up making a boat load of profit over the years. And now I am in the used washer & dryer business. I've just kept busy with this business only selling every now and then until late last year. So for last year I made a taxable income of just over $50,000. This year I am on track to make $72,000 taxable income. I work about 30 hours a week at most. So if I worked 40+ hours a week, I could probably break $100,000 a year.

If you are a person that has to work for someone else, then you probably needed to start at a job that has good potential and climb the ladder of success. If you eventually want to have your own business..... it will not come over night or within the first year or two. Usually, it takes time no matter how you end up there. I like for others to make me money (even though I need to stay a little busy) so my eventual goal was to have others doing the work while I spent the profit and amazingly, it worked out for me.

pdxmonkey

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #410 on: February 02, 2018, 07:08:42 PM »
it blows my mind. I see on here with sometimes close to 200k. How? What do you do and what am I not doing? lol.

Did you ask for it? Ask for it. Seriously, I have worked with people doing essentially the same work and sitting next to me in an identical cubicle that I was making 40% more than because I asked for it when starting the job and they didn't.

undercover

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #411 on: February 02, 2018, 07:14:25 PM »
2.  Learned behaviors must be learned with practice.

3.  If you are talented at something, it is because you have learned it really well.

A lot of people say they'd rather be a hard worker than extremely talented because they can always work theirselves to where they want to be but the talented person may be lazy. But screw that - I'd rather be talented and hard working. People obviously have natural aptitudes and you can't teach everything. And as far as hard work goes, if you're naturally good at something then you're more likely to continue doing it whereas if it's a huge mountain to overcome to even become moderately good, you're more likely to give up. I agree that hard work is more valuable than talent in the long run, but you can't dismiss the amazing benefits of being naturally talented.

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That about sums it up, I think.  Everything else here is just some variation of that three step logic chain.  Which one of those is "misaligned with reality"?

The fact that even if you work extremely hard and/or are talented at something doesn't guarantee you will ever become good enough to make $$$ at that thing? Again, hard work I agree is the number one component but it is no guarantee.

dustinst22

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #412 on: February 03, 2018, 08:42:05 AM »


Color me unimpressed, when it comes to twin studies.  Don't be fooled just because you saw it on Oprah.



This is a really insulting ad hominem logical fallacy.  Relying on ad hominem attacks undermines any respect we have for you and good points you might make. You're better than that.

The research is actually quite extensive, see here (with citations)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 08:50:19 AM by dustinst22 »

sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #413 on: February 03, 2018, 09:54:05 AM »
Relying on ad hominem attacks undermines any respect we have for you

One of us must be misunderstanding what an ad hominem attack is.  I'm not attacking Oprah.  I thought I pretty clearly spelled out some of my reservations about twin studies, and you are free to disagree with any of those arguments.

And second, somebody respects me?  I'm touched by your kind words.  Around my house, all I get are rolled eyeballs and deep sarcastic sighs.

dustinst22

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #414 on: February 03, 2018, 10:09:51 AM »
Relying on ad hominem attacks undermines any respect we have for you

One of us must be misunderstanding what an ad hominem attack is.  I'm not attacking Oprah. 

Implying sarcastically that someone's argument is derived from what they saw on Oprah is indeed an ad hominem fallacy.  It's a tactic frequently used when one doesn't have a good reasonable argument to make.  It appears to me you don't need to rely on such immature remarks.  If you can refer us to any scientific studies with citations to support your position that intelligence is not heritable, I'd be happy to take a look.  It's an area that I find very fascinating, and have read quite a bit on.  Would love to see studies that contradict the science that has been done.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 10:30:05 AM by dustinst22 »

sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #415 on: February 03, 2018, 10:50:29 AM »
Let's remember what we're really talking about here: whether or not some people are genetically prevented from being good enough at something to earn $100k/year at it. 

I have obviously made exceptions for people born with disabilities.  But outside of that?  I don't believe that some people are genetically entitled to earn $100k/year, or that some people are genetically prevented from doing so.  I believe that $100k is a mark that is achievable by any cognitively normal human being in the modern US economy, with hard work and dedication, if given the proper opportunities.

Lots of people apparently disagree with me in this thread, but do you any of you disagree with that paragraph?  Do you honestly believe that your genes determine your tax bracket?  That some people are born too stupid, regardless of their education or upbringing, to ever make $100k?

If so, do you believe those people are more likely to have a different skin tone than you do?  Is it clear yet why I find that argument offensive?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 10:52:38 AM by sol »

dustinst22

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #416 on: February 03, 2018, 10:57:54 AM »
Why do you keep bringing skin color into this discussion?  We are talking about heritability of intelligence.

undercover

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #417 on: February 03, 2018, 11:35:02 AM »
I think he's equating racism to being prejudice against people based on their ability. Sure, they're related (insofar as a racist might think they're related), but racism is a huge step in the wrong direction from acknowledging that people are born with different natural capabilities. He's saying that if you live in a world where you believe that people are born with varying degrees of intelligence and capability then you must believe that people born of certain colors are more superior than others. Which is absolutely stupid. Yes there are certainly racists who believe white people as a race are superior in all natural ability to other races, but that isn't the point as that's on a WHOLE different level. Ability is not illegal to discriminate against - ability is the root of capitalism. So yes, people discriminate based on ability everyday and those people are put on pedestals and paid more. And, as I said earlier, it's easier for some to make it to the top than others both due to being born with natural aptitude and also the simple fact that the harder something is for you, the less likely you are to do it.
 
Also - you also can't just use "stupid" and "disability" as a black and white approach to support your argument that people are more or less the same. Intelligence and disabilities both are a giant spectrum and people may be highly functioning in some areas but lacking in others.

Basically, if you believe that everyone is born with the same capability in life and we're all just subjects of our environment then I don't know what to tell you. There's plenty of evidence for this to not be the case, both scientifically and anecdotally throughout your own life. Yes, the world rewards people who are both naturally talented and hard working. But hard work alone doesn't guarantee anything as people are not the "blank slate" you think they are.

I almost feel like this is such a basic thing to understand and accept that sol may be trolling. Or maybe it's a defense mechanism. To truly accept that people are different and born with different capability is to suggest that you don't have nearly as much control over your own life as you think you do. I mean if you weren't able to choose your physical and mental capabilities and birth then what part of you is really you?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 11:37:49 AM by undercover »

jlcnuke

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #418 on: February 03, 2018, 11:37:05 AM »
Well put.

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sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #419 on: February 03, 2018, 05:10:55 PM »
Why do you keep bringing skin color into this discussion?  We are talking about heritability of intelligence.

No, we are not.  YOUmight be talking about the heritability of intelligence, if you've decided to change the conversation.  I'm talking about the question that started this conversation, which was whether or not "talent" is something that is predetermined at conception, or something you earn with hard work.  I have argued that whenever you look at someone and say "Wow, she's really talented" what you are really saying is that she is very skilled.  You are not commenting on her genes.  You are not commenting on how quickly she became skilled.  You are only commenting on her current abilities.  Her current abilities were earned with hard work.

I have been called talented, upon rare occasion.  At no point did I ever think it was because of my genetics.  I worked hard to become skilled, and if I can do something that looks difficult for you and make it look easy, it is not because I am naturally gifted.  It is because I have practiced long and hard to be better at it than you are. 

And I have reminded people of the association of genetics with skin color because it precisely highlights the very problem with the argument that talent is genetic.  Your physical appearance is (mostly) genetic, but your physical appearance does not determine your skill level.  Talent is skill level, not appearance (professional models and such largely excepted).  If you are the kind of person who believes that a person's abilities are determined by their genes, then you are a hair's width away from being a person who believes that a person's abilities are determined by their ethnicity, and we generally call that racism. 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 07:33:30 PM by sol »

w@nker

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #420 on: February 03, 2018, 05:31:53 PM »
Mozart could play songs by ear on the piano by age three, was composing by age four, and was performing for royalty by age 12.  Do you honestly believe that he had no innate, biological advantage that contributed to his musical genius?  Some people are simply more gifted than others, allowing for certain talents to come more easily. 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 05:34:49 PM by w@nker »

sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #421 on: February 03, 2018, 05:39:26 PM »
I think he's equating racism to being prejudice against people based on their ability.

That's close, but not quite what I'm aiming for.  I actually support discriminating against people based on their ability.  Don't admit stupid people to Harvard.  Don't put weaklings on your Olympic team.

I'm saying that those differences in ability are not nearly as genetically predetermined as most people assume they are.  They are not entirely in your control either, but your affinity for Mozart over Jay-Z is not fixed at the moment of conception.  You are the product of a million random chances that have influenced your early childhood development patterns and rates.  You will reach adulthood with different learned skills than what other adults have learned.  Those differences are NOT GENETIC. 

Why is this part so hard?  There is no genetic mechanism to store musical ability, or mathematical ability.  Like virtually evert "talent", these are mental traits developed as your brain developed.  Your brain is a constantly changing organ that is continuously flooded with extraordinary amounts of data you can't even consciously perceive.  It does things you don't do on purpose.  It responds to your environment in ways you can't see and certainly don't understand.  It makes some of you shy and some of you enthusiastically bad singers some of you play too much dungeons and dragons, and NONE of that is stored in your genes. 

I'm just repeating myself now, of course.  I recognize and accept differences in abilities.  I'm just saying that the common perception that these differences are inherent, instead of environmental, is completely without evidence.  The supporting evidence is anecdotal at best, and has always been suspect because it was promoted by people with repugnant social agendas that colored their interpretations.  Are you really surprised that white american sociologists is the 1950s thought that white people were genetically superior to black people?  Do you accept their findings at face value?

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Sure, they're related (insofar as a racist might think they're related), but racism is a huge step in the wrong direction from acknowledging that people are born with different natural capabilities.

I even accept that people are born with different natural capabilities!  Such as they are, I suppose, since newborns have almost no abilities to speak of.  But newborns are not blank slates, they have had nine VERY important months of environmental influences.  I think it's well established that the pregnancy is a complicated process in which mom's diet and sleep and chemical exposure and even her mood play a huge roll on her developing fetus.  We're each enormously vulnerable to environment during those nine months.

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He's saying that if you live in a world where you believe that people are born with varying degrees of intelligence and capability then you must believe that people born of certain colors are more superior than others.

No, I'm saying over and over again that if you live in a world where genetics predetermines a person's abilities, then it's a tiny tiny step from there to also living in a world where race predetermines a person's abilities, since genetics and race are absolutely correlated.  That latter is called racism, and it is widely used (by racists) to convince other people (generally non-racists) that their racist beliefs are acceptable because the must be at least partly true.  You don't need to fall for that.  Your genes are not determinative of your abilities.  They're only partly determinative of your possible range of physical traits (muscle size, endurance, height, etc.) which can STILL be dramatically influenced by your environment (diet, training, etc).  Effectively zero percent of human beings out of seven billion are currently bumping up against their maximum genetic potential.

If we're still talking about "talent" and whether or not a person can be genetically unable to earn $100k/year, then I think the assertion that a person's genetic or ethnic background can prevent them from achieving that level of success is pretty ridiculous.  There are all kinds of other reasons a person might be unable to reach $100k, but "genes" isn't one of them unless they have conferred a disability.

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people are not the "blank slate" you think they are.

Definitely not at birth.  Do you make the same case at the moment of conception?

Do you make the same case if we're talking about the hypothetical future child of two black parents vs two white parents?  Because I believe that if you could extract those minutes-old impregnated eggs and implant them in the other couple's womb, and then somehow obscure the skin color, the genetically black child raised by white parents and the genetically white child raised by black parents will both be the product of their environment.  If one couple is rich and the other is poor, that will matter.  If one couple is healthy and the other is sick, that will matter.  Religion, diet, neighborhood, nap times, preschool activities, ALL of that matters in determining which child is more successful more than the effectively blank slate they were each given by their parents.  Your genes can give you disabilites, but for otherwise normal healthy humans the human brain blueprint in your DNA and in my DNA is basically identical, no matter what race you are.  Brains just aren't that different on their own, they are different based on how they are used.  It's literally an adaptive organ, that's what it's for.  It changes as needed.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 07:30:58 PM by sol »

sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #422 on: February 03, 2018, 07:51:21 PM »
Mozart could play songs by ear on the piano by age three, was composing by age four, and was performing for royalty by age 12.  Do you honestly believe that he had no innate, biological advantage that contributed to his musical genius?

Yes.  More specifically, I believe that Mozart had no genetic talent for music, because DNA doesn't work that way.  It cannot pass on knowledge about how to play the harpsichord.  DNA tells your body what proteins to make, and there are no proteins for music composition.  That's a learned skill, a higher brain function, synthesized by forming intricate electrochemical connections in your developing brain we call memories and habits and skills.  Your DNA only gives you the blank slate on which the brain can make those connections, not the connections themselves.

I also believe that Mozart's father was an egotistical and authoritarian professional music teacher, who set out to deliberately create a music prodigy.  He started his training literally at birth.  Baby Mozart had more musical education before he would walk than most people get in an entire lifetime.  You don't think that matters?  Do you think all of Mozart's brothers and sisters were also genetically gifted with music, since they shared his genes, and would have been just as musically brilliant if they had been raised by a bricklayer? 

Whenever you see a person with incredible skill, it is psychologically easy (and protective of our own egos) to explain away their preternatural abilities by assuming that person was gifted by God with talent that you are not.  It lets you off the hook for not being raised by a drill sergeant music teacher, but you don't need to be let off the hook.  Mozart's entire childhood was focused on music.  He didn't get to watch cartoons AT ALL.  Two year old Wolfgang didn't get to paint pictures or play ring around the rosie.  He earned that talent, at his father's demanding instruction.  He became a prodigy because of his experiences, not his genes.

You'll hear the same story from every other prodigy.  Without exception, they seem to feel they have earned their skills with hard work.  They are better because they worked harder than the competition.  That's how you get to be the best.

And you don't even need to be "the best" in order to earn $100k/year.  Generally competent is probably sufficient, if you are fortunate enough to have above average opportunities.  As your circumstances get more an more unfortunate, it probably requires greater and greater levels of hard work to get there.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 07:55:12 PM by sol »

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #423 on: February 03, 2018, 07:54:59 PM »
How do you make $100k+ salaries? The answer is easy: Plastics.

w@nker

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #424 on: February 03, 2018, 09:39:01 PM »
Mozart could play songs by ear on the piano by age three, was composing by age four, and was performing for royalty by age 12.  Do you honestly believe that he had no innate, biological advantage that contributed to his musical genius?

Yes.  More specifically, I believe that Mozart had no genetic talent for music, because DNA doesn't work that way.  It cannot pass on knowledge about how to play the harpsichord.

I never said anything about being born with talent or knowledge.  I said biological advantage.  Not all brains are the same, just as all hearts aren't the same...or lungs...or eyes...etc. etc.  It is an organ.

Any further discussion on this is pointless.  We might as well be arguing that the world is flat.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 09:40:33 PM by w@nker »

Blindsquirrel

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #425 on: February 03, 2018, 09:58:06 PM »
    A decade and change as a chemist (perhaps a bit more) will get you there in the pharmaceutical industry. If you have a science degree, passing the patent bar exam to become a patent agent can get you there.  Oil industry also pays well, but government pays way better than any industry.

mizzourah2006

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #426 on: February 03, 2018, 10:59:48 PM »
    A decade and change as a chemist (perhaps a bit more) will get you there in the pharmaceutical industry. If you have a science degree, passing the patent bar exam to become a patent agent can get you there.  Oil industry also pays well, but government pays way better than any industry.

I guess that depends what you do. There is no way govt. would ever match where Iím at (salary wise) 4 years out of grad school, especially given where I live.

mizzourah2006

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #427 on: February 03, 2018, 11:12:49 PM »
Sol, I think at this point everyone is looking for the research backing your opinion that everyone is born with equal cognitive ability or abilities in general (beyond abnormalities).

Hereís another nature study... Iíve read recently on the subject. I. Sure you have an equal quality peer reviewed journal article suggesting your POV.looking forward to reading it.

https://www.nature.com/articles/mp2017121

sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #428 on: February 04, 2018, 12:08:07 AM »
your opinion that everyone is born with equal cognitive ability or abilities in general (beyond abnormalities).

I'm starting to get frustrated that people keep putting words in my mouth.  How many different ways do I have to deny that?  I don't believe that people have the same abilities.  I believe that DNA does not confer learned skills.

If you have any evidence that your DNA can teach you how to play piano, that would be awesome.  Also surprising.  But I'm skeptical it exists, because piano is a learned skill.  Learned skills are learned with experience.  You cannot be born knowing how to play piano.

Talents are learned skills.  Set aside what you believe about a person's genetically-limited abilities for a moment and focus on the actual point that started this discussion: talent is skill and skills are learned instead of genetic.  Your DNA does not make you a good musician or mathematician or computer programmer.  Only your experiences can do that.  You've been consistently ignoring that central argument.  Everyone has. 

Now, for your amusement, we can move on to the separate and only tangentially related argument that you have somehow extracted out of the previous paragraph and distorted into something larger.

Intelligence is not like eye color.  It is not the direct result of a specific gene or set of genes.  The function of your brain is fundamentally different from the function of your heart or your eye, because the association between the physical structure of a healthy brain and the intelligence in a healthy brain is basically nonexistent.  You can't look at a brain and see how smart it is in the same way you can look at a heart and see how healthy it is.  Intelligence doesn't exist in the same way that a physical measurement exists.  It only exists in the self-organizing and recursive sets of connections between neurons, and we all have approximately the same number of neurons, which at birth are connected in approximately the same way (ie. poorly).  From there, we all start making those connections in response to our environments, molding our brains and forming intelligence.  Your DNA is no longer involved when you are choosing a college major, or learning to juggle chain saws, or going in to work late on Monday morning.  Those things are a function of how your brain is connected, not what raw materials it was given.  Those connections were formed over your lifetime of experiences.  They are not genetic, they are learned.

You can have the best genes in the world at the moment of you conception, and if your pregnant mom smokes crack then locks you in her basement after you're born and only feeds you dog food and never speaks to you until you are 15, you're going to be retarded.  Your brain will not develop properly.  You will have no talents.  Genes just don't matter as much to intelligence as they do to eye color, because your intelligence is not set at birth the way your eye color is.  It is a constantly evolving feature of your neurological organization, which is a product of your experiences. 

This is not the same as saying that everyone is equally intelligent, because that is obviously stupid and I'm not sure why everyone keeps accusing me of believing it.  You're hung up on an argument I haven't made, and you're ignoring the arguments I have made.

And more to the point, earning $100k/year (am I the only person here still talking about the thread topic?) is not impossible for you because of your DNA.  Your income is a function of your skill set, and your skills are all learned behaviors.  Your DNA does not and cannot control whether you are good at music vs math vs history vs design.  Only you do that.  If you want to learn something, you have to work at it.  Don't throw up your hands and declare failure before you start because you believe you are genetically unable to learn.  That's selling yourself short.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 12:11:08 AM by sol »

mizzourah2006

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #429 on: February 04, 2018, 01:50:21 AM »

I believe that all cognitively normal baby brains are equivalent.  At one hour old, no healthy child is any smarter than any other healthy child.

Perhaps it was this statement? Implying all children are born with the equal capacity to learn things as quickly as others. So, if you donít have an IQ of 170 itís not becuase of your genetic makeup itís strictly because your parents didnít teach the IQ test to you well enough. Iíll tell my lifelong friends the reason I have a PhD and they barely graduated HS is because they just didnít try hard enough (despite the fact that the only time in my life I ever spent more than a couple hours studying for a test was comps).

But, getting back on topic. Yes I agree with you that it doesnít require one specific skill set to make $100k. There are many paths. I know linesmen that make right around that in the Midwest after a decent chunk of overtime. Where I think we disagree is the assumption that everyone is born with the capacity to learn something at the same rate. There are people who can grasp concepts much more quickly than others and because of that learn more quickly than others. That isnít something you just practice at and learn. Itís largely innate. Iím sure you remember the kid that got As in college without buying the textbook and the other kid that studied for 20 hours a week for the same class to get Bs. Should we just tell the latter to suck it up and just try harder?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 06:09:43 AM by mizzourah2006 »

dustinst22

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #430 on: February 04, 2018, 08:31:07 AM »
^^^^  it was precisely that statement

I believe that all cognitively normal baby brains are equivalent.  At one hour old, no healthy child is any smarter than any other healthy child.
that led to the discussion of cognitive function heritability.  Then what followed was a lot of poor logic and reasoning along with very bizarre logical fallacies about skin color:

I'm saying over and over again that if you live in a world where genetics predetermines a person's abilities, then it's a tiny tiny step from there to also living in a world where race predetermines a person's abilities, since genetics and race are absolutely correlated

This is not a logical statement, and the conclusions drawn are quite poor.  Race and skin color are genetic, but it does not follow that cognitive function is tied to either.  This statement also makes the common logical fallacy that we are claiming genetics predetermines abilities (This is a "Strawman Fallacy" and a"Hasty Generalization Fallacy").  To the contrary, no one has made this claim.  No one has made any statement that genetics determines 100% of what we are.  This is the third logical fallacy made.

No scientific studies cited to support any of these positions.  At this point it's difficult to take any of Sol's opinions on this matter with any kind of seriousness due to poor logic, poor assumptions, multiple fallacies, and no citations.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 09:22:18 AM by dustinst22 »

sol

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #431 on: February 04, 2018, 08:50:25 AM »

I believe that all cognitively normal baby brains are equivalent.  At one hour old, no healthy child is any smarter than any other healthy child.

Perhaps it was this statement? Implying all children are born with the equal capacity to learn things as quickly as o

Ah, now I see.  You think that when I said "smarter" I was referring to the rate at which people learn, and that this rate is what makes a person talented?  Apparently I've not been clear enough in explaining that learned skills have to be learned, and cannot be inherited.

I think I can safely stand by that original statement, because a one hour old baby is not smart in any sense of the word.  Babies are not smart!  Will fail every possible IQ test.  They don't even know how to hold the pencil.  No smarts at all.  Purely instinctual.  Not talented.  Has the potential for growth, but that is very much not the same thing as being talented.

If you accept that a baby has to learn how hold the pencil and not poop itself while drooling on the test, why do you think it is born knowing how to pick the right answers?  That's being pretty generous.  Everything about your intelligence is learned.  Your DNA only contains a few hundred MB of data, but your brain holds terabytes.  Your intelligence is part of the terabytes, not the megabytes.

To now abandon this relevant point, and move on to the interpretation you seem to be focused on, do you think the rate at which people learn new information is coded in their genes?  If so, please just come right out and say it.  I'd like to see someone defend that idea, rather than just attacking the converse.

Because I think it makes some significant assumptions about what learning is and how it happens. 

I think that intelligence is a learned skill.  It can be trained, just like your time in the mile run can be trained.  It changes over your life.  You may be given a limit/maximum by your genes, but almost nobody is actually operating at that limit, and you will never know what your personal limit is until you bump up against it.  Your current personal best mile run time is not an inherited feature.

Quote
But, getting back on topic. Yes I agree with you that it doesnít require one specific skill set to make $100k.

Yay, common ground! 

Do you also agree with me when I argued with the people who have asserted that a person who is cognitively normal but from unfortunate genetic background is just unable to learn some things?  Or do you agree with them, that your DNA can make you bad at specific learned skills like computer programming?

« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 03:56:21 PM by sol »

use2betrix

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #432 on: February 04, 2018, 10:45:45 AM »
As mentioned earlier, I am 29 and have had a couple years over $200k. My current job, making the equivalent of about $300k with overtime, I got based off an over the phone interview from an online job posting. They had zero clue what race I am. I have an associates degree and some certs, and am far from being book/technical smart in my field.

One could argue me being a white male has helped me along the way, sure, but only at a much deeper level.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, Iím not even that intelligent. I got a 20 on my ACTís and struggled in college, dropping out for a tech school and eventually getting my associates once I was already into my career. Iíve been diagnosed with learning disabilities during an 8 hour testing session I did with a psychologist.

The reasons why I am successful, again, as mentioned, are because of OTHER skills. I show up to work every day and on time (havenít had a sick day in 8 years.) I am good with understanding people. I am excellent in following up and prioritizing tasks. I currently have over 20 people working for me (Iím the site head of our department) and am starting to feel my management skills excel as well. I can write decent reports, and at least dance around the technical issues I donít know so I donít look stupid lol. Iím also just passionate in general about doing my job and meeting every requirement.

Itís far from being book smart. If youíre super smart and not successful, there are other reasons for it, beyond bad luck. Iíve worked with smart people who no one likes. They suck talking with people, they canít follow up on issues, etc. or - they might be book smart but chose career paths that didnít have many successful options.

I donít love my job. Iíd rather do a LOT of things. Iím good at it though and it pays well for my age. Itís never been something Iíve been passionate about, but a niche was there and I found it.

mm1970

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #433 on: February 05, 2018, 03:39:24 PM »


Color me unimpressed, when it comes to twin studies.  Don't be fooled just because you saw it on Oprah.



This is a really insulting ad hominem logical fallacy.  Relying on ad hominem attacks undermines any respect we have for you and good points you might make. You're better than that.

The research is actually quite extensive, see here (with citations)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/
The assortative mating section was fascinating.

FreshPrincess

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #434 on: February 06, 2018, 11:00:22 AM »
it blows my mind. I see on here with sometimes close to 200k. How? What do you do and what am I not doing? lol.


Sales.  My dad used to tell me "you could retire at 50 if you would just go into sales... I resisted for years because gross, I wasn't a "salesperson".

Yes I am.  Thanks, dad.

Roadrunner53

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #435 on: February 06, 2018, 11:56:30 AM »
To be a successful sales person you have to have the right personality. I could never do that! I hated selling girl scout cookies and magazines when I was a kid. Later on in life I had a job that was in a hospital and I had to check in surgery patients. OMG, I hated that! It was like working at Disney world ticket booth. Herds and herds of people, their children, husbands, relatives all day long. Previously I worked in research and development and worked with people but we worked on projects and did experiments. I never realized it takes a special type of person to deal with the public. Some of the people I worked with in the hospital loved working with people. I despised it! Put me in a room, give me something to do and shut the door.

JLee

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #436 on: February 06, 2018, 06:35:58 PM »
it blows my mind. I see on here with sometimes close to 200k. How? What do you do and what am I not doing? lol.

Here's how I did it.

I went and got a B.S. in a hard sciences.
Then I went and got a professional degree.

I took a job that required very specialized training and was provided that training.
I started in the mid 5-figures, and then after about 5 years I was able to crack into 6 figures annually while including bonuses and overtime.
Then at 10 years in, I have a significant amount of experience and know-how and a six figure salary to match.

I would say that the job market is like any other and is subject to supply and demand.  But certain entrenched moats can make it difficult for new entrants to provide more supply to meet demand, so price for labor will be maintained at a higher level.

Take law for instance.  In the U.S. one essentially has to commit to 7 years of higher education: four year B.A or B.S, and then 3 years for a J.D.  The group of people who would put up with that is automatically thinned out.  Next there is the bar exam -- not everyone takes nor passes this eliminating more people from the profession.  And the bar is state specific so that a lawyer who is a lawyer in IL cannot automatically move to NY and hang out a shingle at will. And then on top of this there is specialization: a corporate real estate attorney will normally specialize in that field and won't take personal injury case on contingency and visa-versa.  Oh, and legal work is usually difficult to do well.  So if you are in NY and have a specific complicated (or even not so complicated) legal matter you are going to have to buy the time from one of the relatively few available attorneys to have your matter dealt with competently.  Although there are ethical restrictions on charging exorbitant legal fees, an attorney's time will normally be billed out at basically the highest that can be charged for it in the market.  Since the labor market is artificially protected from being flooded, the price will be high.

Alternatively.... if you have a silver tongue, go into sales.

Who defines exorbitant? :P

driftwood

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Well, here's how I did it:
« Reply #437 on: February 07, 2018, 01:37:57 AM »
There are many paths to getting to an >$100k salary.  You'll really have to find your own, plot your own steps to getting there, and then perform the actions necessary to follow that plan.  Whether or not you make it is really up to you and partially to opportunities and environment.

Here's how I got here (>$100k take home pay, & incredible benefits, US military officer), but it was a mostly random path:

In school I read books instead of talking to people. I did my homework and tried to do well on tests. 
In High School I found out there was a program where I could go to the local community college for free and it would count as both high school and college credit.  I wanted the freedom of not being in high school so I applied and was accepted.
Military recruiters came to our high school and gave us all the ASVAB.  I did as best I could on it.  (There were no military plans in my future, but I like succeeding on tests, just like I like getting the right answers on Jeopardy or solving the puzzle on Wheel of Fortune.)
In college I did all the homework and studying I needed to do to get good grades.  Since I was already in class, I tried to learn the content.  I think this was a different mentality than other students in the class.
I got bored after 3 semesters of community college, so I enlisted in the Army.  My ASVAB score was high enough that I could get any job I wanted. I picked Counterintelligence.
After six years and two frustrating Iraq deployments I decided I didn't want to be in the Army anymore. I got out and went to a vocational school for Electrician, using the GI Bill. In my class I had a 4.0 because of all the people there, I was taking Electrician courses to be a good electrician and planned on making money using that info...so why not learn it all?  Others in the class showed up inconsistently, barely paid attention, and their electrical work looked like shit.
Between my previous college credits and my Army training I was able to CLEP one more class and get my AA degree (only took 8 years!).
I worked as an electrician for a few years, and during the housing crash decided I'd go get my bachelor's degree using the rest of my GI Bill instead of waiting for the electrical work to dry up.
I found a school (Prescott College) that had a degree in "Wilderness Leadership".  I played outside for 2.5 years on the government's dime and got a bachelors degree for it.  Best years of my life!
When I graduated I worked a shitty job, but did well at it because that's what I do.  I applied for Officer Training School, two years in a row, got picked up after the second year.
Now I've been in the Air Force for 5+ years, making far more than I'm worth. 

I think it's too simplistic to pin my success on any one thing like IQ, white male privilege, DNA, or hard work... I've had the abilities to succeed at what I do, but my mentality to do well at anything I do, and to try to learn whenever I'm in school (even when I hate school) has also contributed to where I'm at now.  Maybe some of it is due to how I try to use correct grammar/spelling in online forums; using they're, their, and there properly; knowing how to use an apostrophe; and other skills that require caring and attention to detail. 

On the flip side, there are so many examples of people who want to be rich and successful and fit and strong and skinny, but if you start to mention any of the actions required for them to achieve success you immediately get excuses.  And there's the reason... you can't be/have what you want because you "need", or "can't".  Guess you'll always fall short then.

Also, there are many who make >$100k who aren't very smart, or hardworking... but they've found a way to succeed.  People skills can get you there too.  Can you negotiate?  Can you build relationships with people?  Can you sell an idea or product?





mrcheese

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #438 on: February 07, 2018, 03:01:37 AM »
Put me in a room, give me something to do and shut the door.

Amen brother. People are why I refuse to go into any managerial or supervisory roles and I fully acknowledge and accept the cap this attitude places on my earnings.

tooqk4u22

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #439 on: February 07, 2018, 12:48:37 PM »
it blows my mind. I see on here with sometimes close to 200k. How? What do you do and what am I not doing? lol.

Mine was kind of different than JLee and Driftwood but there are some common themes .  I was not academically inclined (lack of focus/application/authority issue) but I would say I have decent intelligence.  Along the way there were a whole lot of twists and turns.  Worked for a few years after high school then went to Not Top Notch U and waited tables along the way.  Let's just say I wasn't on anyone's list of expecting me to hit $100k (before, during or after college), but I did....starting pay at company out of college was about $27k (less than I made before college...I killed it - haha, what an investment) and within 6 years at same company hit that mark - was in three different business groups and different parts of the country at times. 
 
What do I think made the difference.....I worked really hard, I always sought to expand my knowledge and network, I took chances such as moving and wasn't always a yes man (although that backfired too but mostly net positive), and contrary to my grades in high school and community college was smart so I learned things easily, and work in a big industry that has a typical pyramid shape (ie there is always a ladder to climb if you want too and a competitor willing to pay more for your skills as they develop).

I wish I had a silver tongue though, that would be nice. I wish I could say "I wish applied myself earlier" but I can't - bc I am who am and where I am for a reason.

I think it's too simplistic to pin my success on any one thing like IQ, white male privilege, DNA, or hard work... I've had the abilities to succeed at what I do, but my mentality to do well at anything I do, and to try to learn whenever I'm in school (even when I hate school) has also contributed to where I'm at now.  Maybe some of it is due to how I try to use correct grammar/spelling in online forums; using they're, their, and there properly; knowing how to use an apostrophe; and other skills that require caring and attention to detail. 

On the flip side, there are so many examples of people who want to be rich and successful and fit and strong and skinny, but if you start to mention any of the actions required for them to achieve success you immediately get excuses.  And there's the reason... you can't be/have what you want because you "need", or "can't".  Guess you'll always fall short then.

Also, there are many who make >$100k who aren't very smart, or hardworking... but they've found a way to succeed.  People skills can get you there too.  Can you negotiate?  Can you build relationships with people?  Can you sell an idea or product?

This. I sum it up as people should leverage their core strengths and work to develop their weaknesses.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 03:12:21 PM by tooqk4u22 »

tomsang

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #440 on: May 01, 2018, 08:48:19 AM »
CPA's at CPA firms start out with low salaries, $60kish but they get good raises each year. After 5 or so years they are above $100k.  I have averaged 18% raises over the past 24 years.  That will not continue as I am hitting the cap for my firm.  Most likely I will be getting 5% raises.

BlueHouse

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #441 on: May 01, 2018, 10:22:58 AM »
it blows my mind. I see on here with sometimes close to 200k. How? What do you do and what am I not doing? lol.

This question reappears every few months.  Would it be wise to start a new forum category for "mentoring" and have individual threads within the category focus on certain careers?  then everyone with knowledge of that career could offer specific advice and those seeking that knowledge could peruse the threads and ask questions. 

In numerous discussions like this, I've offered that I think Project Planning and Scheduling is a very low-barrier, low-cost, high-reward career that can be self-taught.  But I've provided details so many times both in the forums and in PMs that I'm now tired of re-writing it.  And I never know if someone follows the advice or how it pans out.  Some people like it and some don't, so I don't think it's for everyone, but I do think just about anyone is capable of learning it on their own.  How "good" you get at it depends on how much effort you put in, what resources you use, etc.

MrsDinero

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #442 on: May 01, 2018, 11:23:05 AM »
it blows my mind. I see on here with sometimes close to 200k. How? What do you do and what am I not doing? lol.

This question reappears every few months.  Would it be wise to start a new forum category for "mentoring" and have individual threads within the category focus on certain careers?  then everyone with knowledge of that career could offer specific advice and those seeking that knowledge could peruse the threads and ask questions. 

In numerous discussions like this, I've offered that I think Project Planning and Scheduling is a very low-barrier, low-cost, high-reward career that can be self-taught.  But I've provided details so many times both in the forums and in PMs that I'm now tired of re-writing it.  And I never know if someone follows the advice or how it pans out.  Some people like it and some don't, so I don't think it's for everyone, but I do think just about anyone is capable of learning it on their own.  How "good" you get at it depends on how much effort you put in, what resources you use, etc.

The idea of mentoring is a good one, because I found great value in having a mentor mid-way through my career.  She really helped me look at my job, desires, and path effectively.  She also was not in the same field as I.  What she did was ask me questions that I had to figure out for myself.  For example, do I want to feel like I made a difference in the world today?  Or do I want to chase the paycheck? 

While it probably is possible to do both, in my experience, the two do not go together.

Malum Prohibitum

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #443 on: May 01, 2018, 01:33:11 PM »
Take law for instance.  In the U.S. one essentially has to commit to 7 years of higher education: four year B.A or B.S, and then 3 years for a J.D.  The group of people who would put up with that is automatically thinned out.  Next there is the bar exam -- not everyone takes nor passes this eliminating more people from the profession.  And the bar is state specific so that a lawyer who is a lawyer in IL cannot automatically move to NY and hang out a shingle at will. And then on top of this there is specialization: a corporate real estate attorney will normally specialize in that field and won't take personal injury case on contingency and visa-versa.  Oh, and legal work is usually difficult to do well.  So if you are in NY and have a specific complicated (or even not so complicated) legal matter you are going to have to buy the time from one of the relatively few available attorneys to have your matter dealt with competently.  Although there are ethical restrictions on charging exorbitant legal fees, an attorney's time will normally be billed out at basically the highest that can be charged for it in the market.  Since the labor market is artificially protected from being flooded, the price will be high.

Law schools have been churning out almost 2:1 new attorneys:jobs for decades now. 

Back in 2012, the average income for a solo attorney was $49,000.  That is not the STARTING average income, it is the average for all solo attorneys.

http://www.businessinsider.com/middle-class-lawyers-are-a-dying-breed-2015-6

I know in the movies all lawyers are upper middle class or rich, but in the real world it is not so.

caracarn

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #444 on: May 01, 2018, 02:25:19 PM »
The simplest way to make $100K is to be really, really good at solving a problem a significant amount of people have.  If that is your job, people will pay you a lot of money to do it, which is how I have been able to do that quite well (exceed that pay rate) for over fifteen years.

MrUpwardlyMobile

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #445 on: May 01, 2018, 04:53:26 PM »
Take law for instance.  In the U.S. one essentially has to commit to 7 years of higher education: four year B.A or B.S, and then 3 years for a J.D.  The group of people who would put up with that is automatically thinned out.  Next there is the bar exam -- not everyone takes nor passes this eliminating more people from the profession.  And the bar is state specific so that a lawyer who is a lawyer in IL cannot automatically move to NY and hang out a shingle at will. And then on top of this there is specialization: a corporate real estate attorney will normally specialize in that field and won't take personal injury case on contingency and visa-versa.  Oh, and legal work is usually difficult to do well.  So if you are in NY and have a specific complicated (or even not so complicated) legal matter you are going to have to buy the time from one of the relatively few available attorneys to have your matter dealt with competently.  Although there are ethical restrictions on charging exorbitant legal fees, an attorney's time will normally be billed out at basically the highest that can be charged for it in the market.  Since the labor market is artificially protected from being flooded, the price will be high.

Law schools have been churning out almost 2:1 new attorneys:jobs for decades now. 

Back in 2012, the average income for a solo attorney was $49,000.  That is not the STARTING average income, it is the average for all solo attorneys.

http://www.businessinsider.com/middle-class-lawyers-are-a-dying-breed-2015-6

I know in the movies all lawyers are upper middle class or rich, but in the real world it is not so.

Lawyers also have the highest rates of depression, substance abuse, and suicide among any similar profession. Being a lawyer is bad for you.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 08:42:56 PM by MrUpwardlyMobile »

snapperdude

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #446 on: May 01, 2018, 08:05:24 PM »
CPA's at CPA firms start out with low salaries, $60kish but they get good raises each year. After 5 or so years they are above $100k.  I have averaged 18% raises over the past 24 years.  That will not continue as I am hitting the cap for my firm.  Most likely I will be getting 5% raises.

So you are making 53 times your starting salary? Mazel tov!

tomsang

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #447 on: May 01, 2018, 10:03:01 PM »
CPA's at CPA firms start out with low salaries, $60kish but they get good raises each year. After 5 or so years they are above $100k.  I have averaged 18% raises over the past 24 years.  That will not continue as I am hitting the cap for my firm.  Most likely I will be getting 5% raises.

So you are making 53 times your starting salary? Mazel tov!

Actually 51.  The numbers start gettting crazy. It has been a great career.

TysonGA

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #448 on: May 02, 2018, 09:54:09 AM »
Technology sales.  Started entry level with a bachelors in 2010.  $35k+ a very small bonus.  Stayed at that company 4 years and climbed into mid-high 5 figures.

This was a small company and I was thrown into tons of projects I was wildly unqualified for because we were short handed.  Ended up doing everything from software contracts, server and storage procurement, to managing staffing vendors for project work.  It was all over the place.  I mostly faked it until after about 2 years of frantically trying to figure out what to do, I just knew what to do from experience.

At the end of that 4th year was recruited by a competitor for a significant salary increase with higher bonus potential.

Have only dipped below $100k once in 4 years since and typically earn mid-100s w/ $200k potential if everything were to go perfectly one year.

Not even remotely close to being slick, fast talking, flashy or anything close.  However, I do get along very well with IT and Finance folks who are most of my direct clients.  They are almost always very bright interesting people.

I read white papers constantly and make sure to have exceptional knowledge around my product and they type of requirements clients hire us to address.

tl;dr - Find a small software or software consulting that's hiring for any low level job related to bringing in revenue.  Volunteer to do everything you can and learn as you go.  Maybe change companies once or twice and wake up 4-5 year later earning a very good living.

boarder42

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Re: How do people make $100+ salary?
« Reply #449 on: May 02, 2018, 10:00:00 AM »
Spouse and I are both electrical engineers, both went to a great state school (minimal debt in my case, none in his because GI bill). We live in a HCOL area. He graduated college 1998, I in 2000. Our salaries are 153k (his) 120k (mine...yes, same degree from same school, working at same company, and I still only make 78% of what he does. Thankfully my current supervisor has worked hard the last few years to make it a smaller gap after I moved over to management). Neither of us work overtime at this point in our careers. I have gone into management but still make less than he does; that tends to vary depending on the company.

Other people I know who make the same (or more) are: Ph.D scientists working in industry (not sure how research compares), manufacturing engineers, IT company owners, program management/planning (often with a technical background although one I know who broke into six digits works for a local construction company), airline pilot, sales, medical field (a friend of ours is an MRI tech and he makes more than I do but works a lot of overtime, I know someone making upwards of 90k but not quite 100k in accounting within a medical group, mostly managing the finance office now).

You're 2 years behind him. You shouldn't make the same.