Hobby cars &c. - financial sense vs. sentimentality (request for critique)

[daschtick]

I hear the new Fiesta STs are a hoot to drive? Could be confused with a mustachian car. Just thinking outloud

I have a (paid off) Focus ST, and absolutely love it - It is a perfect all-in-one car!   However, it is only Mustachian when comparing it to the Nissan Titan I was driving before it.  I manage 28 MPG overall, even with the Ford Racing tune, which gives it a very un-mustachian 340 lb/ft of torque!

[Chris22]

OK.....what's the fourth? :)

My AP1 S2000 :)

[OldPro]

Spork, twin HS4s. What they did to the MGBs exported to the US was criminal. 

[otter]

I mentioned my thoughts to my girlfriend over the weekend, and last night I had a long talk with one of my best friends, someone who understands where I'm coming from, during which conversation we talked about this. Based on that....

For now I am going to focus on getting the SE-R back on the road. I had already begun work on the car, and I have all the parts I need and a hoist (I'll pick up a stand once the engine is on the ground.) I will do everything I can think of on the car so that it is in drive-across-the-country now readiness, rather than just drive-around-the-midwest and winter-car readiness. (Rod bearings, PS leak, rack boots, CV boots, might as well do the clutch, replace any cracked rubber, strip/recoat ugly bits, steam clean dirty bits, replace header with newer unit, add rear strut brace, reinstall intake, new fluids, fix horn, reinstall PS door trim) Even with all of my travel plans, bike rides, etc. I am pretty confident I can get this done by mid-September, which is good enough for me. Before I can get too far into this, I need to give the Fiat an oil change and fix the stumble/hot-restart issue and drive to my house to park next to the Honda and clear up space in the other garage for a work table, the hoist, engine stand, etc.

I've suspected, and my conversation last night confirmed, that if I had to get rid of, or decided to get rid of, one of my other two cars, it would be the Fiat. If I do a thought experiment based on getting rid of / losing / not having either car, the SE-R is the clear winner. So I will give the SE-R everything it needs and then take some sort of action on the Fiat. That might be putting it up for sale, that might be keeping it. I know that with this issue, as with many others, I can easily be overwhelmed by too long of a view and the number of things that need to get done, rather than focusing on the next 1-3 steps. Hell, I was static for most of last year on the car work because I couldn't decide which one to prioritize; I ended up prioritizing neither.

Meanwhile, a couple of comments here stuck with me since they spoke to a feeling I know well - as practical and perhaps "Mustachian" as my Accord is, it puts me at risk of having my Car Guy card taken away from me (so to speak), and at heart, since that is the car I drive essentially all the time, why should I drive something I am 'meh' about when I can drive something fun instead? So I consinue to shop for something like a V6/5MT Mazda 6 hatchback/wagon (http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/5024422390.html), 5MT Mazda 3 hatch, VW GTI, A3 or A4 Avant. No rush, so I can but when the right car comes along and then sell the Honda.

[FunkyStickman]

I think you're on the right track. And ultimately, it's not a matter of "right" and "wrong" but more of a question of 1. thinking about cars objectively, because they're expensive, and 2. figuring out how to make that align with your long-term financial goals.

My dad and I have been looking for the "perfect" fixer-upper classic car. Close to 20 years, but we finally found the right one. We're both ecstatic about it, and that's the way it should be. Cars should add to your life (both short-term driving and long-term retirement enjoyment) otherwise you don't need it.

[Dorje]

Avoid the Mazda 3 with manual transmission like the plague!

My ex-gf had a 2010, the clutch is a weak point and costs a fortune to replace. She paid $2k to replace it and the transmission started going out less than a year later. She traded it in for $5k rather than deal with paying to fix the transmission. It's just a $hitty, cheap car. 

[Sailor Sam]

Go out and tap the side of the carburetor with a HAMMER.'

I don't have any practical advice, but I do have another hammer anecdote that I'm bursting to share.

About 4 years ago, I was captain of a 57' cat boat, working in the Chesapeake Bay. The boat was for research, but had been strategically placed near the MD/DC Beltway so that dignitaries could come for a day cruise. One fine day in July '12 I had a boatload of senate staffers trundle aboard, but when I pressed the starter for the stbd engine, absolutely nothing happened. Not even clicks. I smiled at the staffers, prayed, and hit the button again. Nothing. Third stab, just for kicks. Nothing. That hateful engine wasn't event trying, and was RUINING MY PUNY LTJG LIFE IN FRONT OF THE STAFFERS. I called the Catapiller mechanic. He told me the solinoid tooth was stuck, and how to fix it. So, with 15 well dressed staffers watching, I hauled open the engine compartment door, hung ass up over the engine bloc, and hit that fucker with a hammer. The engine started right up.

[TheAnonOne]

To a degree, people here hate cars unquestionably.

The answer I immediately expected to read here (And was not disappointed) was the generic "Sell all cars" answer.


The goal of MMM is simply to have a high savings rate be that 50, 60, or 70 percent. I own a few pricy cars (3) and maintain a savings rate of 50-70 percent most months (Average TBD)

I don't think the community should be so quick to judge, especially if the rest of your finances are in order.

[Chris22]

To a degree, people here hate cars unquestionably.
...

I don't think the community should be so quick to judge, especially if the rest of your finances are in order.

There's a fair bit of environmental extremism masquerading as financial advice here.  Much of it with little thought given to reality or circumstances differing from one's own.  I'm not intentionally wasteful of resources, but when I consider the triangle of cost, convenience, and environment, the environment always draws short stick.  OTOH, my life is not particularly wasteful environmentally anyways, especially in comparison to many "limousine liberals." 

[Jack]

To a degree, people here hate cars unquestionably.
...

I don't think the community should be so quick to judge, especially if the rest of your finances are in order.

There's a fair bit of environmental extremism masquerading as financial advice here.  Much of it with little thought given to reality or circumstances differing from one's own.  I'm not intentionally wasteful of resources, but when I consider the triangle of cost, convenience, and environment, the environment always draws short stick.  OTOH, my life is not particularly wasteful environmentally anyways, especially in comparison to many "limousine liberals."

Hey, even those of us who are car nuts shouldn't be clown-car commuting in them! I mean, I currently commute 30 miles each way in my Miata, but I recognize that as being stupid and am in the process of rectifying it.

As mustachians, we should have all the cars we want, but only use them for pleasure cruises, racing, off-roading or whatever -- not commuting.

[Chris22]

Hey, even those of us who are car nuts shouldn't be clown-car commuting in them! I mean, I currently commute 30 miles each way in my Miata, but I recognize that as being stupid and am in the process of rectifying it.

As mustachians, we should have all the cars we want, but only use them for pleasure cruises, racing, off-roading or whatever -- not commuting.

Yeah, that's a nice theory, but as is typical, wildly simplistic and situation-dependant.  I had a short commute.  Then I was laid off and the next role had a long commute.  My wife had a short commute, left her job for a better opportunity and got a longer commute.  The RE market being what it was it didn't make sense to move for a long time.  It sucked, but transactional costs on RE can make a few grand a year of commuting seem like peanuts.  And on and on and on. 

[forward]

OP - I discovered this forum a couple of years ago and at the time I was getting ready to buy a different car.  Not a new car, but a newer, more interesting, better looking car.  Then I found this forum.  I am now still driving the same old car I had then.  I like cars in general, I still want a different car.  But I realized that one difference between me just being responsible with my money and being truly on the path to FI as quickly as possible was getting a newer car.  I am much closer to FI now than I was then, with the help of that and other decisions where I did not spend, I saved.

I still keep track of prices on the used car I might want next.  I want to go look but I'm not going to let myself until I reach a few more financial goals.  If I were you I would keep one car that meets your needs.  Keep a nice photograph or a momento from the other ones if they mean something to you.

[otter]

Sam,

I've done that kind of thing too, albeit without the audience. When we were in high school, my sister and I shared our dad's BMW 320is (while he drove the Fiat), and at one point the starter started going out (dying winding) and would periodically require someone to open the hood and whack it with a broom handle before it would start. :)

Go out and tap the side of the carburetor with a HAMMER.'

I don't have any practical advice, but I do have another hammer anecdote that I'm bursting to share.

About 4 years ago, I was captain of a 57' cat boat, working in the Chesapeake Bay. The boat was for research, but had been strategically placed near the MD/DC Beltway so that dignitaries could come for a day cruise. One fine day in July '12 I had a boatload of senate staffers trundle aboard, but when I pressed the starter for the stbd engine, absolutely nothing happened. Not even clicks. I smiled at the staffers, prayed, and hit the button again. Nothing. Third stab, just for kicks. Nothing. That hateful engine wasn't event trying, and was RUINING MY PUNY LTJG LIFE IN FRONT OF THE STAFFERS. I called the Catapiller mechanic. He told me the solinoid tooth was stuck, and how to fix it. So, with 15 well dressed staffers watching, I hauled open the engine compartment door, hung ass up over the engine bloc, and hit that fucker with a hammer. The engine started right up.

[otter]

Dorje,

I've looked into them a fair bit and am not concerned about Mazda 3s from a durability standpoint. And, regardless of the car, I am not hard on clutches. (I learned when I was 12 and generally know how to take care of my machinery.) My SE-R has the original clutch at 220k miles. And, at any rate, replacing the clutch on a 3 isn't any harder than replacing it on any other transverse-engine FWD car. We're not talking about something like Audi S4 timing chains....

Avoid the Mazda 3 with manual transmission like the plague!

My ex-gf had a 2010, the clutch is a weak point and costs a fortune to replace. She paid $2k to replace it and the transmission started going out less than a year later. She traded it in for $5k rather than deal with paying to fix the transmission. It's just a $hitty, cheap car.

[otter]

The no-clown-commuting thing is something I am a big fan of (though experience), and live - I lovelovelove cars but absolutely do not want to be dependent on them. This makes them, if anything, less fun! But I do try to approach other people with generosity, spiritual and otherwise, and try to understand where they are and their tradeoffs. The friend I spoke to last night lives in Denver and commutes to Boulder every day. Sometimes he does a multimodal bike/bus commute (2 hours each way), sometimes he drives his Miata or GTI (1 hour each way). This sounds sort of awful to me (I say 'sort of' because of the setting) but OTOH Denver is a lot more affordable, they live in a great neighborhood that is walkable and easy for their kids to run around in, they are very close to their daughter's ballet school, etc. And he has been asked about the commute but he just doesn't care because he is deliriously happy being in Denver rather than suburban Dallas where they moved from. So who am I, really, to call it a clown commute? His (and their) quality of life and happiness level has gone way up.

As for my own finances, they could be better, but they're not bad. I've always lived below my means and saved money (I somehow seem to have acquired certain elements of a Depression mentality from my maternal grandparents, even though I grew up with a very privileged childhood), and the savings amount has increased as I get older, but I have never made nearly as effective use of the money I save as I could. I've been meaning to create something like a case study post for feedback on that topic.

To a degree, people here hate cars unquestionably.
...

I don't think the community should be so quick to judge, especially if the rest of your finances are in order.

There's a fair bit of environmental extremism masquerading as financial advice here.  Much of it with little thought given to reality or circumstances differing from one's own.  I'm not intentionally wasteful of resources, but when I consider the triangle of cost, convenience, and environment, the environment always draws short stick.  OTOH, my life is not particularly wasteful environmentally anyways, especially in comparison to many "limousine liberals."

Hey, even those of us who are car nuts shouldn't be clown-car commuting in them! I mean, I currently commute 30 miles each way in my Miata, but I recognize that as being stupid and am in the process of rectifying it.

As mustachians, we should have all the cars we want, but only use them for pleasure cruises, racing, off-roading or whatever -- not commuting.

[FrugalSpendthrift]

I also have a car obsession that conflicts with my financial goals.  I've been through a few sporty cars and miss all of them, including a B13 SE-R, a prelude, an MR2, a WRX, a Civic SI, and a GTI.  The SE-R and MR2 weren't bad financial decisions, didn't really depreciate, didn't cost much to maintain and were decent on gas.  The WRX was the worst financially, but also the most fun.

When I discovered this forum, I had 5 vehicles, now I'm down to 2.  I'm sure there will be more in the future, but they will be a small fraction of my total net worth, so it shouldn't have much affect on my long term plans.

[OldPro]

Sailor Sam, good story.  Of course as a long time keelboat sailor myself, I wouldn't be caught dead on a catamaran.  ;-)

TheAnonOne, I agree with you completely.  Sometimes the prejudice here against cars is hilarious.  As someone who has been FIREd for a long time, the idea of living life with a bicycle and a milk crate bungied to the back (the apparently preferred mustachian mode of transport) makes me laugh.  I picture all these people in rain, snow or even high temperatures puffing away on their bikes while I drive past in airconditioned/heated/dry comfort in a car.  Taking anything to extremes is usually a bad idea.

There is always more than one way to approach something.  The common assumption around cars seems to be they are a cost factor that impacts when someone will FIRE.  But is that assumption necessarily true?  If for example having a car gets you to a job that pays twice what one you can get to by bicycle pays, the assumption would obviously be wrong.  Or, someone could buy low and sell high while driving the car in between the buying and the selling.  That would contribute money to the pot, not decrease the money going into the pot.  Start from a difference viewpoint and you arrive at a different solution.  Sometimes I think some people here can be pretty unimaginative when it comes to looking at something and only see what seems to be the obvious answer.

I've been FIREd for many years now and have always driven a car.  That to me was a non-negotiable part of how I wanted my life to be after I FIREd.  Therefore, it had to be part of my plan obviously.  Just like always having a flush toilet is.  If you start from that premise (about anything YOU choose to include in your life) then you don't think in terms of "a car obsession that conflicts with my financial goals" as FrugalSpendthrift just commented.  There is no 'conflict' it is part of the plan.

Some years ago, I was in a bar and a guy came in and asked the bartender who was driving the little classic convertible sports car parked right out front of the bar.  The bartender told him that it was my daily ride.  So the guy turns to me and asks 'why are you driving a car like that as your daily ride?'  Before I could answer him, the guy sitting on the other side of me answered him with, 'because he can'. 

Sometimes, the only justification you need for something is just that.  Because you can.  If someone wants to include a car of whatever kind in their life after FIRE then all they have to do is include it in their plan.  And NO it does not mean it will take you more time to reach FIRE.  It just means you need to include it in your plan from the start, just like you did flush toilets presumably.  Or are flush toilets an obsession that 'conflicts with financial goals'?

[Chris22]

My biggest extravegence is my third fun car* (a 2 seat roadster/sports car).  I bought it when I was 25, drove it every day for several years, and then when it was getting on in mileage and I got tired of crawling into it in dress clothes every day, I bought a sedan.  But instead of trading in the sports car, I kept it as a third car. 

I paid ~$22k for it, and it's probably worth ~$15k today.  So it depreciated about $7k or about $1k a year that I've owned it.  I'll say on the high end I've probably spent another $1k/yr on maintenance (mostly tires, it chews through tires like all RWD sports cars) and insurance.  I don't count gas because I'd be using gas regardless (I'm not going to commute by bike until all the apocolypse and all the cars are gone).  So basically I've spent $2k a year owning that car.

I can guarantee that there is nothing in the world I'd rather have for $2k a year than that sports car, except maybe a different sports car.  If I have to work until I drop dead in order to keep that car I will, because if I retired the absolute first thing I'd do my first morning as a retired person would be to take that car for a drive, top down.  If I can't do that, well what's the point of retiring? 

Noted car collector and Pink Floyd drummer Nick Mason once said "If I had all the money back I ever spent on cars, I'd spend it on cars."  I get that other people don't feel that way, and if you don't like cars I'm 100% in agreement you shouldn't waste your money on cars.  But if you DO want to have a nice car, and you are aware and realistic about the costs, I see no point in denying it to yourself. 



*My wife and I each have a daily driver, which, while more expensive than the average MMM would think appropriate, our strategy is to buy something we like and keep it for a long time.  This works for us.

[FrugalSpendthrift]

It just means you need to include it in your plan from the start, just like you did flush toilets presumably.  Or are flush toilets an obsession that 'conflicts with financial goals'?

I like your idea of just planning for it.  I am certainly doing that, although I am struggling with finding an appropriate level.  I called it an obsession, because it would escalate to a ridiculous level if there were was no restraint.  Kind of like importing one of those high tech japanese flush toilets.

At one point I had 5 vehicles, 2 car payments and only 2 drivers in the house.  When I finally realized how ridiculous that was, I downsized to a pair of compact cars with no leins.  I am now itching for a 'project car', but I can't decide how much of my resources I'm willing to commit.  I've already decided that I won't finance any more vehicles, but I can't decide how much I am comfortable spending.  If I frame it in terms of net worth, is having 5 - 10% of my net worth tied up in cars too much?  Will I still reach FI in a reasonable amount of time if I brush up on the upper level?  Probably... That's my conflict.

[FunkyStickman]

TheAnonOne, I agree with you completely.  Sometimes the prejudice here against cars is hilarious.  As someone who has been FIREd for a long time, the idea of living life with a bicycle and a milk crate bungied to the back (the apparently preferred mustachian mode of transport) makes me laugh.  I picture all these people in rain, snow or even high temperatures puffing away on their bikes while I drive past in airconditioned/heated/dry comfort in a car.  Taking anything to extremes is usually a bad idea.

Actually, part of the "badassity" regimen is learning how to do things the hard way to reap physical and financial benefits. I personally have a sports car, but I also commute by bike as much as possible. The only way you really save money by cycling is to sell the car... most people won't do that (notice I didn't say can't). I understand that my cycling is more of a physical/mental gain than a financial one, and I'm okay with that, as long as I'm not throwing money away.

My car's paid for, and the less I drive it, the less I spend on gas and maintenance.

Going car-free isn't for everyone, but it's certainly attainable by most people. Just like anything else, you have to balance the cost/benefit ratio.

[OldPro]

FrugalSpendthrift, I have owned several cars since I FIRED.  All of them two door, manual shift, convertible classic sports cars.  One I sold at a decent profit after a few years, one I sold at a slight lose (negligible really) and the other 2 I sold for what I paid for them.  Like I said, if you change the problem to be solved, the solutions come out differently from what most people see the problem and solution as being.

One thing I have learned though is never to buy a 'project car'.  The reason being, if you do a decent job on the restoration, you are not likely to get your money back out of it when you sell.  That's just the way it works in the classic car restoration market.

For example, I bought a 1980 Triumph TR7 from a guy in England.  He bought it in Texas and had it shipped to the UK where he did a complete body off restoration.  You could eat your dinner off the underside of that car when I bought it.  I don't know how much money and labour he put into it but I know it was more than I paid for the car.  Now that happens to be that guys hobby and he isn't happy unless he is working on a project car of some kind.  He doesn't care about the money, the payback for him is in the doing of it.

But for me, the payback is in driving a nice reliable car that I can enjoy and STILL get my money back when I decide to sell it.  The way to do that is buy a car that someone has $15k into and that you buy for $7k, drive for 3 years and then sell for $7k before it starts needing money spent on it again.

Planning to have a car after you FIRE doesn't mean you have to plan to lose money on having one.   

[otter]

Good point. I don't save tons of money, because I'm not car-free and have no desire or plans to be, but I do save something - I spend drastically les on gasoline than I would if I drove everywhere, less on maintenance, and less on insurance because I drive little.

If a well-sorted impact-bumper Porsche 911 Targa for $20k still exists and I could find one, I would buy it and sell the Honda and Fiat to pay for at least half of it, gladly spend the other $10k in cash, and be happy with two cars :)

TheAnonOne, I agree with you completely.  Sometimes the prejudice here against cars is hilarious.  As someone who has been FIREd for a long time, the idea of living life with a bicycle and a milk crate bungied to the back (the apparently preferred mustachian mode of transport) makes me laugh.  I picture all these people in rain, snow or even high temperatures puffing away on their bikes while I drive past in airconditioned/heated/dry comfort in a car.  Taking anything to extremes is usually a bad idea.

Actually, part of the "badassity" regimen is learning how to do things the hard way to reap physical and financial benefits. I personally have a sports car, but I also commute by bike as much as possible. The only way you really save money by cycling is to sell the car... most people won't do that (notice I didn't say can't). I understand that my cycling is more of a physical/mental gain than a financial one, and I'm okay with that, as long as I'm not throwing money away.

My car's paid for, and the less I drive it, the less I spend on gas and maintenance.

Going car-free isn't for everyone, but it's certainly attainable by most people. Just like anything else, you have to balance the cost/benefit ratio.