Author Topic: Hobby cars &c. - financial sense vs. sentimentality (request for critique)  (Read 14161 times)

otter

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This post is perhaps an invitation for possible face-punching. It's not a focused question looking for specific advice to guide a pending decision, but more a request for opinions that may challenge me or let me view a familiar situation in a new light. I recognize that this is an area where I am sort of set in my ways but sort of want to be challenged.

I live on the NW side of Chicago, where for about 7 years now I have lived a very compact and bicycle-centric life. I bike everywhere year round and live a geographically compact life (I don't travel more than 10 miles for much of anything, and most of it is less.) It is almost entirely car-optional, and I only use my car(s) when I want to - usually for trips out of town, occasionally for special reasons in the city of burbs. Yes, I have three cars.

At the same time, I love cars. I love everything about them, unreasonably so. No need to go into depth on that here, but suffice it to say that cars have been one of my primary hobbies, and they dictated my education (engineering school and art school) and my career) Etc., blablabla. People regularly express surprise that I love bicycles so much, ride everywhere no matter what, avoid driving in the city at almost all costs, and yet have three cars. Car #1 is my Boring Transportation Appliance. It is the one car I have no particular attachment to, yet the one that would make no sense to get rid of (it's a 12-year-old Japanese Transportation Appliance with 50k miles that used to be my grandfather's) I have spent the last 8 months not-too-seriously searching for a fun/practical replacement that isn't an automatic. My request-for-face-punching concerns my other two cars, however, and the practical effects and costs, hidden or not-so-hidden, of owning them. Car #2 is an early 90s Japanese sport sedan that I received as a high school graduation present from my grandparents. It is the only new car I've ever had, and I've had it for 22 years now. It has not been registered, insured or driven since I moved here in 2008, as the rod bearings were starting to make noise and it needed 10 other things, so I decided to do all that first and, well, I suck at getting things done and here we are 7 years later and I'm only finally getting around to dropping the engine to give it a mild overhaul and do everything else so that, hopefully, I can drive it by the end of summer. Car #3 is a Fiat convertible that my dad and I got as a father-son project when I was in 9th grade. So I have had that, in one form or another, for about 25 years (!!) It is registered and insured, but I barely drive it because it has reached rolling-restoration-project state and is rather needy/crotchety. Also, bike rides compete very strongly with convertible drives for weekend time, and more often win out.

The costs are associated with the garage space. I've been doing all my own car maintenance for about 20 years now, and having garage space is important to me, both for storing the cars and for having a safe, covered, place to work on them and keep my tools. The Accord is garaged at my house, which cost is included in the rent for my apartment. However, I've been paying for an entire 2nd garage to keep the other two cars, at $200/month. I've long been aware that I could save a nice chunk of money if I didn't pay it. I now have the entire garage at my 3-flat, and if I only had two cars I could eliminate the cost of the 2nd garage.

If I street-parked the Honda I could keep both other cars there and get rid of the extra cost. However, not having to street-park anything is tremendously valuable to me - my car tends to sit for weeks and weeks at a time, and in the garage I never have to worry about it being damaged, never need to move it for street cleaning or etc., basically never have to think about it. If I drive it anywhere for any reason, I always have a place to park it. Plus it's safe. The other way to get rid of the other garage would be to get rid of a car.

Beigemobile is boring, but it is far and away the most sensible car I have, and the one that makes the most sense for the practical uses (as opposed to fun uses) I have a car for. I bought this car for a lot less than it was worth, and after ~4 years and 34,000 miles I could still sell it for more than I paid for it. It's the only car that I could hop into and drive across the country without a thought (I did this last summer, more or less - and its shortcomings in the fun department were what have had me casually looking for an also-reliable replacement.)

Sport Sedan is a car I have a tremendous sentimental attachment to. I have always had the strong feeling that if I ever got rid of it voluntarily I would regret it endlessly. I really, really miss driving it, which missing it motivating me to attend to its needs so I can drive it again. It was my daily driver from 1993 to about 2004, and has 220k and a totally solid body. If I had to, I could go back to driving this as my primary car after I tackle the whole to-do list, though I would find its lack of practicality (sedan with no folding seat) frustrating.

Convertible is also a car I have a big sentimental attachment to. More so since my dad died in 2005. While driveable, it has considerable needs, including bodywork, which I have neither the skills nor tools to do myself (everything else I could do myself.) I secretly dream of having, in its place, a convertible that doesn't need anything (meaning a Miata, because the answer is always Miata), that I can just hop in and drive on any summer day without a second thought. I also secretly dream of not having a convertible at all. Get rid of the Fiat, finish the other project car, park it at the garage at gome, get rid of garage #2. Spend an hour a day into the indefinite future trolling Bring A Trailer and craigslist for fun cars, which I do anyway. But then sentimentality kicks in - "this car is a part of me! It is a concrete link to my dad, his memory, and my childhood with him!" There are also questions of identity - the car thing has always been a big part of my self identity. At the same time, as I get older I prefer driving cars to working on them. And I love my car-optional lifestyle.

Do I need a face-punch? Maybe. Critique away.




Kevin S.

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I am also a car guy / motorcycle guy / gear head!

I feel your pain!

Pretty sure a lot of my financial woe comes from my love of the automobile and anything else that goes boom - does it briskly and makes cool noises! lol

IMHO it sounds like you need to sack up and sell all of these hobby/non running vehicles asap! Get your crap together and then when you are done selling everything maybe look at how much you have to possibly buy a cheap fun reliable car that is somewhat sporty or keep the cheap reliable appliance, sell all the hobby cars and buy a cheap reliable motorcycle - ATGAT, get your endorsement and have fun!

Me personally I'm debating on selling my motorcycle, selling my race car, selling all my race car parts and my vw bug frame and parts and all the other crap I have accumulated over the last 15-20 yrs of my life and try and move on with a simple happy life without the clutter. At least heroin can give you some cool stories - all my stories involve very pricey part failures or evading police (in mexico of course) from high speed runs lol

Good luck mustachiannenenenenn...

Hope it all works out for you!



bzzzt

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Make sure you've got plenty of pictures of the Fiat and sell it if you don't have the time to restore it. Keep the Japanese sports car as your fun car. Probably a lot better performance and reliability. Smiles per gallon, if you will.

I'm going through the same dilemma with my car hobby. Mine cost less to store, but are even less practical (two non-street legal race cars).

Debts_of_Despair

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I've owned a couple cars that when I owned them, I could never picture my life without them.  Now that they are gone, it doesn't really bother me. It sounds like you are getting sentimental about them but really it's the memories that matter, not the cars themselves.  They are just piles of metal, glass and rubber.

IMO, sell all three and get one car that meets your needs and maybe some of your wants.   Way less stuff to worry about and keep nice and you will be saving $200/mo right away.

ChrisLansing

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You already know the answer.   Keep the boring transportation appliance and a single garage space.    Sell the other two cars.   Simple as that.   

Retired To Win

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You already know the answer.   Keep the boring transportation appliance and a single garage space.    Sell the other two cars.   Simple as that.   

It would be that simple if it were just about money.  But it's not, is it?  Sport Sedan and Convertible have tremendous sentimental value.  They connect otter to his Dad, his youth, his past, his dreams.  So, no.  Don't sell these cars.

Sell Beigemobile!  Who gives a shit about Beigemobile, right?  So, get one of your 2 sweeties fixed enough to get you around, and sell the boring transportation appliance. Then you'll be able to dump the $200 a month garage, have a way to get around and still keep your heirlooms.

How about that?

(And you guys thought I was all about being frugal and nothing else!)

Guesl982374

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Keep 2, sell 1.

I agree with RTW however I would personally get rid of the 90s Japanese sports sedan as it probably doesn't have much life left even if you fix it and only has sentimental value to you. The Fiat is something that could continue to be passed down to your kid(s) one day and could tie generations together beyond the grave (ie your grandfather and I worked on this car, etc). I recommend keeping two because both the sports sedan and the fiat aren't going to be reliable.

Retire-Canada

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If I gave up all my hobbies which include a motorcycle and mountain bikes amongst other things I could knock 30%+ off my annual budget and FIRE significantly earlier. But I can't see enjoying that much.

OTOH - 10yrs ago I spent double or triple on these hobbies and didn't enjoy them more.

If I was in your shoes I'd work out all the costs associate with the cars, tools and storage. Figure out how many extra years you have to work so you can FIRE and keep them. Ideally break the costs out by car so you can see what getting rid of one or more will do to your FIRE plans.

Then stand in the garage in front of them with that knowledge and see how you feel about it.

Is car X worth 4 extra years of working or would rather FIRE 4yrs sooner?

There is no wrong answer. If you really feel the connection with those cars that you are okay with delaying FIRE go for it. Life isn't about an arbitrary goal.

The only thing I would worry about is not fully understanding the impact on my FIRE plans.

And keep in mind that if you decide that having all of these cars is a problem the other option is not just giving up your entire collection and it's activities. Maybe you get rid of 1 car and put your services up on CL and help other people restore their car projects to get your fix and earn a bit of extra money that pays for the car(s) you kept?

-- Vik

Sibley

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Read The Life Changing Magic of Tidying Up by Marie Kondo. It might help with the emotional attachment side. Plus, it might help you declutter other parts of your house!

Personally, I am not emotionally attached to cars, or stuff in general actually. I'm one of the least sentimental people I know. Given your habits, you really don't need any cars at all and could just rent one the few times you do.

TropicNebraska

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I have a mustang that used to be my grandfather's that I keep in storage (free at the in-law's garage). So I'm familiar to your situation. I'd at least keep the fiat convertible and fix it up how you like it (have fun with those Italian electronics). Store the fiat in your garage and street park the japanese appliance. Sell the sport sedan and keep the storage fees to shoehorn an alfa straight 6 engine into the fiat. You can enjoy it when you're FIRE with the top down cruising down Montrose Beach.

cacaoheart

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I could see replacing car 1 and 3 with a retractable roof miata. I have a '69 Fiat Spyder that my dad purchased in '74 and heavily modified over the years. I haven't driven it since he had a stroke and ultimately passed away a few years ago. It's high maintenance and I don't have a garage where I live, so it stays at my mom's where she and my older brother can drive it in exchange for covering the maintenance.

Even after I finish nursing school in ~12 months I'm not sure if/when I'll be ok dealing with the costs of a classic sports car as I'm doing my best to phase out driving. One thing the Fiat has that a Miata lacks is a (small) back seat my greyhound could fit in.

OldPro

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Possession is an interesting word.  Do you possess them or do they possess you?  Might be something to think about.

And yes, Miata is ALWAYS the answer.  For those here who insists on reducing everything to 'doing the math', here's the formula to prove it.  http://blipshift.com/products/maths

AlwaysBeenASaver

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Here's my recommendation, which might not be what others think you should do:

Take lots of photos of the convertible (as someone else said), then get rid of it. You can get one or more of the photos made into a poster and hang it somewhere so you can look at it whenever you want to.

Get rid of the reliable boring car. It sounds like you get through life just fine w/o a car so you don't really need reliable car transportation. If you suddenly want to drive cross country, rent a car. If you have an emergency and need a car in town, call a cab or rent a zipcar for a day. It will still be cheaper renting/cabbing once in a while then paying for registration/insurance/garage space.

Keep the fun project car in the garage you don't have to pay extra for. This is your hobby and there's nothing wrong with having a hobby car to tinker with. Also, not having any other car will encourage you to work on this project.


Cougar

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i recently sold my sports car because i just want driving it enough.

sounds like car #3 should go immediately.

i'd keep car #2 if you will occassionally use it as your daily driver and love driving it every time you do. imo, if its something you love, you should keep pursuing it; sort of the point of going fire imo; to be able to do things you love.

my sports car was not a love or i would've made more time to drive it; so i sold it.

russianswinga

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1. Sell all 3 cars

2. Buy a Lotus Elise. Use it as your daily driver / fun car / memory of your dad. He would want you to!



http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=376514168

Having owned 2 Lotus Elises in the past and daily driven them, I can tell you they're way more reliable than a Miata. I probably put 100K miles on them combined, and they never needed anything more than an oil change / brake pads / spark plugs. The engine is a bulletproof Celica motor with a Lotus head, the body is just fiberglass and bonded aluminium so nothing to go wrong. This particular example costs less than a new Miata. You can probably find a higher mileage one for under 20K if you looked hard enough.

Just a thought...

Kris

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You already know the answer.   Keep the boring transportation appliance and a single garage space.    Sell the other two cars.   Simple as that.   

It would be that simple if it were just about money.  But it's not, is it?  Sport Sedan and Convertible have tremendous sentimental value.  They connect otter to his Dad, his youth, his past, his dreams.  So, no.  Don't sell these cars.

Sell Beigemobile!  Who gives a shit about Beigemobile, right?  So, get one of your 2 sweeties fixed enough to get you around, and sell the boring transportation appliance. Then you'll be able to dump the $200 a month garage, have a way to get around and still keep your heirlooms.

How about that?

(And you guys thought I was all about being frugal and nothing else!)

I agree, sell the beige mobile.  I can't imagine why you actually need that car for "utilitarian" purposes when you barely need a car.  You can use one of the other two cars for "utilitarian" purposes if you need to. As far as driving across the country -- hell, on the super-rare occasion you would ever need to do that, you could rent  a car with the THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of dollars you will have saved by not having the $200/month garage anymore.

Jack

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You said you don't really "need" any car at all... so why the Hell are you wasting time keeping a boring one?!

I've also got three cars, but all three are interesting in their own way: one's an efficient-and-fun VW diesel hatchback, the second is a small 4x4 truck, and the third is a Miata (which is also more reliable than the other two, and is thus my daily driver).

I say just suck it up and pay a shop to fix the major issues on the sports sedan immediately* and make it your [less-than-]daily driver, keep the finicky Italian thing as your only "project car," and get rid of the Transportation Appliance.

Having owned 2 Lotus Elises in the past and daily driven them, I can tell you they're way more reliable than a Miata. ...  This particular example costs less than a new Miata. You can probably find a higher mileage one for under 20K if you looked hard enough.

My Miata is 25 years old and has 82K miles, but it was garaged its whole life and was maintained to such a standard that except for the fact that it has a tape deck, only one airbag and is exempt from emissions it's indistinguishable from a brand new car. It cost me $3500. Even if it is less reliable than an Elise it doesn't matter, because I could replace it five times over for the cost of even a relatively-cheap Elise.

(*Easy for me to say... my VW has been sitting for longer than I care to admit since I'm too stubborn to pay somebody to finish the transmission swap I've been dawdling on)


jms493

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I feel your pain...I sold all my cars but 1.  My wife is using here high school Jeep Cherokee (2001) to go back and forth to work as a RN at a hospital.  We are working hard at becoming debt free and then saving 100% of her salary for a while.  For now I can not indulge in my car hobby and it sucks but I must do things in order.  Once we get the snowball rolling in the right direction...then and only then can I think about buying a "toy" car.  (Dodge Challenger)

It can be an expensive hobby so tread carefully.  Cars can really drag down your finances.

Spork

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I don't have any good answers because I'm pretty much in the same boat as you.  Mostly just replying to follow.


I've had my sentimental, old, unreliable garage queen (Triumph Tr6) since 1983.  I probably drive it 4-5x a year (and pay for a year's worth of tags/insurance/etc).

My wife had her own: a 1966 Mustang -- also a project car since the 80s deeply tied to her father, who passed away.  She managed to sell it last year. 

I'm still struggling with mine.

captainawesome

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If driving is a fun hobby, keep/get a fun car.  The memories made by whatever car you have are just that, memories. If all 3 cars disappeared tomorrow, those memories won't.  While I wish I had the chevy silverado my grandfather used to drive around, I miss him more than the truck.  And the truck would most likely sit until I "needed" to pick up something from Lowes.

I am a car junky by heart. But my desire to save as much as I can and build my retirement account outweighs that these days (call it maturity).  But that siren song is strong, and I would love a miata, s2000, or an FR-S/BRZ to tool around in.  I'd also like my motorcycle back. But until I reach my financial goals, just not happening.

Just have to weigh what means more to you, sentimental objects or dollars in the bank.

jms493

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Great thread...helps me cope with being a car guy with no car.

FunkyStickman

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I'm a car guy. But I'm also frugal, and realistic.

I personally think it's better to have one car you really like than several you struggle with and drain your time and money.

If you're keeping cars for sentimental value, then buy a 1/24 model of them. Will still bring back memories, but a car sitting in a garage isn't doing anything good for you.

Sell ALL the cars, and get ONE car that will be the right car.

Then enjoy the heck out of it.

Disclaimer: I just bought a '65 Rambler to restore... but it will be my primary daily driver when I'm not cycling. I don't need 2 cars if this one does everything I want. It also only cost $5K....

FunkyStickman

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1. Sell all 3 cars

2. Buy a Lotus Elise. Use it as your daily driver / fun car / memory of your dad. He would want you to!


Solid recommendation. Get something that makes you feel alive when you drive it.

otter

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Thanks for all the responses so far - it is also nice to be reminded that there are others with the same general financial perspective (I've been like this passively for a long time, but have only been doing it more actively very recently) who are also car people.

I had not mentioned what the cars themselves were, probably out of some desire for anonymity (if there is anyone who knows me who happens to be reading this, they'd be able to spot me by my cars), but what the hell, I love talking about it.

The Beigemobile is just a 2003 Accord, so what. If it were a manual, I'd be happy to keep it for years, as it's pretty nice to drive except it's a damn automatic and I hate automatics (it's the only one I've ever had - I would not have chosen the car but when I was offered it, a 16k mile Accord for 3/5 its market value was too good an opportunity to pass up to replace my 185k mile G20t that I had already decided to replace with something younger) It has required a set of tires, an alternator, and two batteries. It will need another damn set of tires (they're cupped), front rotors, fluid changes and an A/C leak fixed.

The Japanese car is a '93 Sentra SE-R. It is the most reliable piece of machinery I've owned - until the starter died at ~180k, it needed no more than regular maintenance and consumables (and it got a few modifications, too). It has a completely rust-free body, too. This is getting new rod bearings and since I'm pulling the engine I will probably reseal the front cover, replace a leaking PS hose, replace the steering rack boots, probably the outer CV boots, clean everything up so it looks semi-purty under the hood again. Also replace the rear brakes (rotors and calipers), a sagging door hinge and a couple of other things I can't remember. I already have all parts needed. With a really thorough go-over this could serve primary-car duty again (in a typical year I put about 4-5k on my bikes and 5-8k on my car) though I would really miss things like folding seatbacks. Since I have a set of snow tires and the car has a viscous LSD, it is great in the snow.

The convertible is a Fiat Spider. It's a Turbo, which is quite rare, and which would make it rather more valuable than a regular Spider if it were in really nice condition. It needs rust repair (two high-priority spots on the floor, everything else is "whenever" since I don't care about driving an ugly car), control arms, brake rotors, plugs/wires/dist/vacuum advance, timing belt, Guibo, U-joint and center support bearing, rebuilt steering box, and some other things I'm forgetting. If it's mechanically solid, I'm happy to drive it with the body and interior it has for years. This car typically gets driven no more than a few hundred miles a year, though in part this has been because of its condition.

The Beigemobile is the car that I drive nearly all the time, but is booooringzzzz......it is Mustachian in the sense that it is inexpensive, was an unbeatable value at the price, and is reliable and practical enough. For what it is (midsize sedan with a 4-cylinder), it gets crappy fuel economy, as it won't break 30mpg unless I take the roof rack off completely and keep it under 70. By cotnrast, its predecessors broke 30mpg effortlessly.) As much as I would love an Elise, I do not want to take 800-mile road trips in one, and I can't fit a couple of bikes and a weekend's worth of stuff in one :) So there is a strong case for keeping it. But why punish myself by making the car I drive 99.5% of the time a boringmobile?? I have been casually shopping for a replacement, but have yet yo be convinced enough to be swayed to pull the trigger (I have been sort of seduced by its low mileage) on something else in the $6k-9k range (I'd probably get 8-something selling the Honda.) Candidates include Audi A4s (B6, preferably Avants), Mk V VW GTIs or TDIs, Audi A3s, Mazda 3 hatchbacks and Mazda 6 hatchbacks or wagons, all with manuals. Unfortunately lot of what I like (e.g. a BMW E46 Touring with under 100k,  manual, sport package and sunroof) is unicorny.

To FunStickman's point, if I only had one car it would definitely be one I really liked. Fortunately the other two cars are not money drains beyond the cost of the garage. I have spent about $50 on the SE-R in the past 7 years; the Fiat has seen maybe $800 in parts, insurance is cheap, and registration is practically free, and there is the annual city sticker. I never actually bought either car. I can replace the Accord with something I enjoy the heck out of for the same money, but I have to be careful to avoid anything with too many maintenance needs, as I want that car to be the one that gets an oil change once a year and doesn't need much more.

If nothing else, I am cheap - all of my cars together aren't worth, say, a new Fiesta.

The point about owning something vs. being owned by it is a good one, and one I have thought about. In the last year I have gotten rid of a lot of clutter in my home, in large part thanks to a seriously get-shit-done (and also Mustachian) girlfriend and an open spirit on my part. I sometimes feel owned by my cars, but I'm not sure I'm emotionally ready to give them up yet. But I do sometimes think what it would be like to give up the Fiat, and imagine I might could do it. 

I am beginning work on the SE-R now, and would like to have it done (on a leisurely schedule) by the end of summer. I don't want to pay someone else to do it, and while the startup inertia on a project for me is tremendous, I do enjoy doing my own work. Once this is driveable, I will drive it. And maybe I will try selling the Honda then, not buying a replacement for it, and seeing how I like it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 03:31:16 PM by otter »

russianswinga

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Unfortunately lot of what I like (e.g. a BMW E46 Touring with under 100k,  manual, sport package and sunroof) is unicorny.

I have an E46 330ci, Touring pack, Sport pack, Manual, sunroof, 10 speaker HK sound system - got it after I sold my last Lotus and never looked back. It really is the perfect car! 182K miles on mine and counting. I just re-did the entire suspension (shocks, struts, control arms, tie rods, end links, sway bars, bushings) and have replaced several gaskets, hoses, and the entire cooling system. Also replaced the leather on the driver's seat from a junker seat, installed an M3 steering wheel, and changed the shift know to a weighted ZHP short shifter Here's to 300,000 miles!



BTW, this picture was taken 5 years ago, and the car still looks the same - not a scratch on her. I only added Xenon lights with projector housings.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 03:48:13 PM by russianswinga »

ChrisLansing

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You already know the answer.   Keep the boring transportation appliance and a single garage space.    Sell the other two cars.   Simple as that.   

It would be that simple if it were just about money.  But it's not, is it?  Sport Sedan and Convertible have tremendous sentimental value.  They connect otter to his Dad, his youth, his past, his dreams.  So, no.  Don't sell these cars.

Sell Beigemobile!  Who gives a shit about Beigemobile, right?  So, get one of your 2 sweeties fixed enough to get you around, and sell the boring transportation appliance. Then you'll be able to dump the $200 a month garage, have a way to get around and still keep your heirlooms.

How about that?

(And you guys thought I was all about being frugal and nothing else!)

But it is that easy.   His connection to his dad is in his memory, not in the Fiat.   His dad probably taught him to ride his first 2 wheeler, but that doesn't mean he has to hang on to his childhood bike forever.     

He has 3 cars, none of which gets used on a frequent basis.   He hasn't fixed up the cars in years, so they must not really mean that much to him.   He's just having trouble letting go of stuff he doesn't need anymore.   

But I will revise my prior advice.   Sell all 3 cars.    You live within a 10 mile circle.  You have achieve an impressive level of badassity, but you are spoiling it by paying for cars you don't use.      You can rent or borrow a car for out of town trips.   
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 05:52:28 AM by ChrisLansing »

otter

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You already know the answer.   Keep the boring transportation appliance and a single garage space.    Sell the other two cars.   Simple as that.   

It would be that simple if it were just about money.  But it's not, is it?  Sport Sedan and Convertible have tremendous sentimental value.  They connect otter to his Dad, his youth, his past, his dreams.  So, no.  Don't sell these cars.

Sell Beigemobile!  Who gives a shit about Beigemobile, right?  So, get one of your 2 sweeties fixed enough to get you around, and sell the boring transportation appliance. Then you'll be able to dump the $200 a month garage, have a way to get around and still keep your heirlooms.

How about that?

(And you guys thought I was all about being frugal and nothing else!)

But it is that easy.   His connection to his dad is in his memory, not in the Fiat.   His dad probably taught him to ride his first 2 wheeler, but that doesn't mean he has to hang on to his childhood bike forever.     

He has 3 cars, none of which gets used on a frequent basis.   He hasn't fixed up the cars in years, so they must not really mean that much to him.   He's just having trouble letting go of stuff he doesn't need anymore.   

But I will revise my prior advice.   Sell all 3 cars.    You live within a 10 mile circle.  You have achieve an impressive level of badassity, but you are spoiling it by paying for cars you don't use.      You can rent or borrow a car for out of town trips.   

Well, but it kind of is in the Fiat. It makes me smile every time I look at it, and even though it is crotchety it makes me smile (and think of him) whenever I drive it. Then it won't re-start and it aggravates me :) I am sentimental about things in general and about cars in particular. The Fiat needs work, but is driveable. But by last year it had reached need-to-start-checking-stuff-off-the-project-list point. So both of these things - the memories are in the cars themselves, and I have trouble getting rid of stuff - are true. This tension is what was behind my post.

No way am I selling all my cars, though. having, if nothing else, one car is much too useful for me to want to go without it. If I lived in the South Loop or something it would be one thing; but where I live in the city it is easy-peasy to keep at least one car, and at the same time very transit-accessible and bikeable.

captainawesome

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I hear the new Fiesta STs are a hoot to drive? Could be confused with a mustachian car. Just thinking outloud

And I hear your wish list, hard to finds.  I'd say if you were interested in an 330ci with all the bells and whistles, with only 43k miles, PM me.  It is an automatic though.

fiveoh

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As a car guy I agree with others that said sell 2 and keep the 1 you like the most. 

gt7152b

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You already know the answer.   Keep the boring transportation appliance and a single garage space.    Sell the other two cars.   Simple as that.   

It would be that simple if it were just about money.  But it's not, is it?  Sport Sedan and Convertible have tremendous sentimental value.  They connect otter to his Dad, his youth, his past, his dreams.  So, no.  Don't sell these cars.

Sell Beigemobile!  Who gives a shit about Beigemobile, right?  So, get one of your 2 sweeties fixed enough to get you around, and sell the boring transportation appliance. Then you'll be able to dump the $200 a month garage, have a way to get around and still keep your heirlooms.

How about that?

(And you guys thought I was all about being frugal and nothing else!)

+1. You don't need a car at all with your love for biking so you definitely don't need a boring car just because it's reliable. You do love the other two cars and you aren't going to get much for them so I say keep them and slowly restore the sedan, then the fiat. Your fear is that you'll NEED the boring car before you're done restoring the sedan but that's not reality. You probably won't need car transportation at all and if you do then get a rental or taxi. It will be good motivation to keep you going on your project and that satisfaction of finishing will be pretty sweet.

driftxsequence

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Sell the beige, keep the SE-R as a daily and keep the fiat as a project.

The beige has low miles, and only a few issues. You should be able to sell it for above market value for its age. Take that money and either pocket it or use it to fix the SE-R and prep it for daily use. Smaller issues like the door sag can wait until its in mechanical order. You said you wont be driving it everyday since you bike a lot so minor inconveniences like that can wait. Those small inconveniences are more pronounced when you have to deal with them everyday, but twice a week you might be able to put it off. Park the Fiat in the garage, and get a car cover for your SE-R. (1.5 month of garage rent could pay for a nice cover)

I found out about this site 6 months ago. Roughly 2 months ago I pulled the trigger to sell my speed3 daily after talking about it since the fall time. I biked for a month and used that as motivation to get my RX7's engine in the car and running (knowing I had no backup transportation REALLY kicked my ass in gear). It's now fully functional with 207k miles and great compression. I am very sentimental and attached to my vehicles. There is no fear in my mind when it comes to daily driving an old car. Knowing the systems in and out is a huge help. I still commute by bike 3-4 times a week weather barring. The wife has a MK4 TDI Golf, and we absolutely love it.

Smevans

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1. Sell all 3 cars

2. Buy a Lotus Elise. Use it as your daily driver / fun car / memory of your dad. He would want you to!



http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=376514168

Having owned 2 Lotus Elises in the past and daily driven them, I can tell you they're way more reliable than a Miata. I probably put 100K miles on them combined, and they never needed anything more than an oil change / brake pads / spark plugs. The engine is a bulletproof Celica motor with a Lotus head, the body is just fiberglass and bonded aluminium so nothing to go wrong. This particular example costs less than a new Miata. You can probably find a higher mileage one for under 20K if you looked hard enough.

Just a thought...

Lotus is great in San Diego. But would most likely disappear in a snow drift here in Chicago.

Smevans

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And I agree with many of the others here. Sell the Accord and keep the other two. I sold my Grandpa's 82 Merc a few years back and regret it every day. I sold it due to a similar situation. I had 3 cars (82 Merc, 05 Evo and a crap daily). The Evo and Merc were not good commuters and I had limited room for all three. So I sold my two projects and kept the crappy beater. I was also miserable not having a hobby car and bought a 78 280Z shortly after.


SugarMountain

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I feel your pain.  I have the following:
2002 Audi Allroad - grocery getter, winter car
2000 BMW Z3 M Roadster
1974 (or 72 or 69 depending on which parts you focus on) MGB
1990 Honda VFR 750

Clearly I have a problem.  We just got a clown car for DW, a rather large SUV that I am not a fan of.  Short term goal is to fix a couple of things on the Audi & sell it, since with the SUV we don't need two ridiculous gas guzzlers.  Then finish getting the motorcycle going and sell it (it's been sitting for a few years).  Then comes the MG.  It's been hogging garage space for a large number of years, needs a total restoration.  I might get $500 on the open market.  But, I keep coming back to, "well, when I retire I'll finally have time to do something with it."  So I leave it.  The poor Beemer is not in the garage because of this (and got hit on the street, although the driver left a note and its as good as new).

What I would recommend is ditch the early 90s sports sedan and keep the other two.  The Fiat sounds like it's more sentimental, and more fun, and at least drivable currently. Then park your low mileage Japanese car on the street.

Jack

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I hear the new Fiesta STs are a hoot to drive? Could be confused with a mustachian car. Just thinking outloud

Fiesta STs won't be mustachian until you can buy one that's 5+ years old.

TreeTired

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I don't want to confuse face-punching with condescension,  but those are some fairly un-collector marques makes and years you are spending a lot of money to garage.  I have owned a hobby car for 16 years,  and at times I consider it one of the best purchases I have ever made,  because I have had a lot of fun with the car, met some great people, attended some great events, enjoyed maintaining/working on it,  and it hasn't cost me a whole lot of money.  Partly through luck, but also resisting the temptation to endlessly upgrade, replace and improve, it has not been a money pit.   This hobby car takes one space in my 2 car garage.  I have often said if I owned a bigger garage i would own more cars,  (But I don't, so I don't).   When I have talked about buying another car my wife has made it clear there is only one hobby spot, so if a new car comes, the old one has to go.  It just requires a little self control. 

gimp

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I really want to get into it, but every time I look at my bank account and compare it to the cost of a nicely restorable car and restoration costs...

captainawesome

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I hear the new Fiesta STs are a hoot to drive? Could be confused with a mustachian car. Just thinking outloud

Fiesta STs won't be mustachian until you can buy one that's 5+ years old.

agreed, but it has all the makings of a useable fun car, with hatchback benefits and a relatively low starting price now.  Still leery of Ford ecoboost products long term, hoping they fair okay.

otter

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I don't want to confuse face-punching with condescension,  but those are some fairly un-collector marques makes and years you are spending a lot of money to garage.  I have owned a hobby car for 16 years,  and at times I consider it one of the best purchases I have ever made,  because I have had a lot of fun with the car, met some great people, attended some great events, enjoyed maintaining/working on it,  and it hasn't cost me a whole lot of money.  Partly through luck, but also resisting the temptation to endlessly upgrade, replace and improve, it has not been a money pit.   This hobby car takes one space in my 2 car garage.  I have often said if I owned a bigger garage i would own more cars,  (But I don't, so I don't).   When I have talked about buying another car my wife has made it clear there is only one hobby spot, so if a new car comes, the old one has to go.  It just requires a little self control.

Don't worry, I don't take it as condescending :) It may be a while yet before Fiat Spiders start to rise in value a lot (if they ever do), but if nothing else mine, if restored, would be worth a decent amount (when they do appear for sale, beautiful Turbos seem to sell in the teens, and I have the advantage of having spent very little money on the car ever.) It took about 30 years before BMW 2002s started becoming valuable - maybe the same will happen with nice B13 SE-Rs (and mine is a nice one), especially after so many have been used up and discarded. In the end, though, that doesn't really matter to me since the cars have other value to me. I have wanted a Porsche 911 (let's say a 3.0 SC or 3.2 Carrera) for nearly my whole life (I had a model when I was 2, and announced my desire to own one on my 4th birthday) and they are out of reach - I could have stretched 10 years ago and bought a nice one and it would be worth triple now, but forget it now. I could have bought one five years ago and maybe I should have, but its too late now. The trick is to identify the really good values in cheap fun cars before their values go up!

Bicycle_B

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Sell 'em all and get the Miata!

Dorje

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Everyone has different priorities. For me, safety is #1 and I believe that includes both active and passive safety. Then cost of ownership, which includes taking resale into consideration. Fun to drive also makes a difference to me, I know it's a luxury weakness but I understand it and am fine with it.

I used to own a welding and auto shop before I got my engineering degree so I understand that cars ALWAYS cost you money and your choices are somewhat of a crapshoot.

That said, at least here in Colorado one car sticks out as an obvious choice given my priorities and that is a NEW Subaru Impreza. It'll get high 20's average and low 30's on the highway, the WRX version that I prefer is certainly a waste of money to some but it has better active safety, including stopping distances that are way shorter than average and competitive with the world's supercars. It's fuel economy is near the same as the non-turbos if you're a smart driver. Resale value is insane... insane that people will pay what they do for a used car. My last one was a '10 wrx that I sold for $3100 less than I paid for it after 4 years and 68k miles. Before that my regular '06 Impreza wasn't far off from the resale of my wrx. It cost $19k and dealers were pricing similar cars at $16.5k! My new wrx is still worth an insane amount of money as well, these cars just don't depreciate as a car typically does... at least in Boulder, CO.

One of my best friends drives a more MMM-approved Honda Fit and I think the extra cash I spend on my WRX is well worth it from a safety perspective, let alone that fact my wrx is so much more fun to drive. I mean, if you get in an auto accident I would prefer to lessen my chances of severe injury or death. If you own one of these small econo-boxes and DO get in an accident that results in injury to yourself or one of your passengers that would be instant regret for me and I'd feel like an idiot trying to save money on such an important issue. Its one thing if you can't afford anything else, but if you can and simply prioritize money over safety then that may be something you have to live with the rest of your life if you're in a bad accident.


medinaj2160

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Everyone has different priorities. For me, safety is #1 and I believe that includes both active and passive safety. Then cost of ownership, which includes taking resale into consideration. Fun to drive also makes a difference to me, I know it's a luxury weakness but I understand it and am fine with it.

I used to own a welding and auto shop before I got my engineering degree so I understand that cars ALWAYS cost you money and your choices are somewhat of a crapshoot.

That said, at least here in Colorado one car sticks out as an obvious choice given my priorities and that is a NEW Subaru Impreza. It'll get high 20's average and low 30's on the highway, the WRX version that I prefer is certainly a waste of money to some but it has better active safety, including stopping distances that are way shorter than average and competitive with the world's supercars. It's fuel economy is near the same as the non-turbos if you're a smart driver. Resale value is insane... insane that people will pay what they do for a used car. My last one was a '10 wrx that I sold for $3100 less than I paid for it after 4 years and 68k miles. Before that my regular '06 Impreza wasn't far off from the resale of my wrx. It cost $19k and dealers were pricing similar cars at $16.5k! My new wrx is still worth an insane amount of money as well, these cars just don't depreciate as a car typically does... at least in Boulder, CO.

One of my best friends drives a more MMM-approved Honda Fit and I think the extra cash I spend on my WRX is well worth it from a safety perspective, let alone that fact my wrx is so much more fun to drive. I mean, if you get in an auto accident I would prefer to lessen my chances of severe injury or death. If you own one of these small econo-boxes and DO get in an accident that results in injury to yourself or one of your passengers that would be instant regret for me and I'd feel like an idiot trying to save money on such an important issue. Its one thing if you can't afford anything else, but if you can and simply prioritize money over safety then that may be something you have to live with the rest of your life if you're in a bad accident.

Yeah Subaru WRX and STi hold their value extremely well. The said can be said for the GTR and the EVO. I am in South Caroline, I paid 23k for my WRX brand new and 7 years later I people were willing to pay 17k.... 6k depreciation over 7 year is not bad.

OldPro

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I feel your pain.  I have the following:
2002 Audi Allroad - grocery getter, winter car
2000 BMW Z3 M Roadster
1974 (or 72 or 69 depending on which parts you focus on) MGB
1990 Honda VFR 750

On a lighter note.  I used to own a 1976 MGB convertible Sugar and one day it started spewing gasoline.  As in, it was leaving a nice trail of gas all down the road behind me.  Well clearly that would need to be dealt with post haste.

Since I was living on a Greek island at the time, you can probably imagine that parts and service were not easy to come by.  Fortunately, I had the phone number of a MGB specialist garage in the UK that I could call and ask for advice from.  So I made a call and described the problem.  Here was the answer.

'Well it sounds like needle valve is stuck.  So the obvious fix is to remove and rebuild your carburetor.  We would have to send you a rebuild kit.  But before you spend the money to do that, I'm going to suggest you try something that may sound crazy to  you but I seriously think you should try first since if it works, the problem will go away and you won't need to rebuild the carburetor.  Here's what I want you to do.  Go out and tap the side of the carburetor with a HAMMER.'

The theory of course was that if a speck of dirt/sand was caught in the needle valve, tapping the carburetor could dislodge it and clear the problem.  But the idea of 'fixing' your car with a hammer is not the first thing that usually comes to mind!

It is of course a fairly common fix that works but being a driver and not a mechanic, it was not common to me.  Makes you wonder how many times a garage has charged a customer to rebuild a carburetor that could have been fixed with the 'tap' of a hammer.  What's that saying about, 'when all you have is a hammer, all problems look like a nail.'  LOL

Spork

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I feel your pain.  I have the following:
2002 Audi Allroad - grocery getter, winter car
2000 BMW Z3 M Roadster
1974 (or 72 or 69 depending on which parts you focus on) MGB
1990 Honda VFR 750

On a lighter note.  I used to own a 1976 MGB convertible Sugar and one day it started spewing gasoline.  As in, it was leaving a nice trail of gas all down the road behind me.  Well clearly that would need to be dealt with post haste.

Since I was living on a Greek island at the time, you can probably imagine that parts and service were not easy to come by.  Fortunately, I had the phone number of a MGB specialist garage in the UK that I could call and ask for advice from.  So I made a call and described the problem.  Here was the answer.

'Well it sounds like needle valve is stuck.  So the obvious fix is to remove and rebuild your carburetor.  We would have to send you a rebuild kit.  But before you spend the money to do that, I'm going to suggest you try something that may sound crazy to  you but I seriously think you should try first since if it works, the problem will go away and you won't need to rebuild the carburetor.  Here's what I want you to do.  Go out and tap the side of the carburetor with a HAMMER.'

The theory of course was that if a speck of dirt/sand was caught in the needle valve, tapping the carburetor could dislodge it and clear the problem.  But the idea of 'fixing' your car with a hammer is not the first thing that usually comes to mind!

It is of course a fairly common fix that works but being a driver and not a mechanic, it was not common to me.  Makes you wonder how many times a garage has charged a customer to rebuild a carburetor that could have been fixed with the 'tap' of a hammer.  What's that saying about, 'when all you have is a hammer, all problems look like a nail.'  LOL

drifting way off topic here (but it's what I do).

If MGBs have the normal SU or Zenith-Stromberg carbs of other LBCs, the likely issue here was the oil damper was empty.  No hammer required.  Open top.  Pour in about 2 Tbs oil.  Put piston back in (and hear it push the piston down).  Done.

Dorje

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I've rebuilt dozens of carburetors and am happy they are gone! Multi-port fuel injection... and now direct injection... was a huge leap forward in automotive technology.

The new WRX has a direct injection turbo engine with a static compression ratio of 10.5:1 and produces over 14 lbs of boost! Before DI this kind of engine would require extremely high octane gas to keep it from detonating, it simply wouldn't work with pump gas at all! With a static CR that high it should get about the same fuel economy as the non-turbo impreza if you're driving normally.

I was expecting a lot of counterpoints to my post above, I'm surprised it's gone this long without a dissenting point of view!

Chris22

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Ask yourself this: once you FIRE, what do you intend to do with your time?

If you're like me, and you love cars like you say, your plan revolves around having the time to work on your cars.  If that's the case, why would you sell them?  Maybe find cheaper storage, but the goal is to have the time to spend enjoying the things important to you, and for you it sounds like these cars.  They are basically worthless (probably ~$5k ea) to anyone else, yet will cost you much more $$$ to re-acquire some day if that's what you chose. 

I'm sorta in the same boat.  I have a sports car I love almost as much as my wife and kid.  Buying it was the realization of a dream for me.  It's relatively plebian (but will kick the shit out of those suggested Miatas ;) but it's something I've always wanted.  It's paid for, and my garage space is "Free" but it still represents about $15k of tied-up capital sitting on 4 wheels.  But that said, I think about what I'd rather do than have that car, and for me, the answer is literally "nothing." 

For you it's even tougher because while I love my year/model of my car, you could replace it with an exact same make/model and I'd still be okay with it.  For you, it's THOSE TWO CARS specifically.  The relatively tiny amount of money you'd realize selling them are nothing compared with what it would take if you decided you wanted them back.  And you will. 

otter

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Chris22,

Good input. FIRE for me is a long way off (I have always been frugal and savings oriented, but was much too conservative with holding my money until very recently), but the results of imagining that certainly involves working on and driving my cars, whatever they are (the older I get, the more interested I am in driving them than I am in working on them, beyond basic maintenance, though if I had a heavenly garage/shop this might change). It would also include riding my bikes, traveling, combining two or all of those things, etc. You're right, they're not worth much - the SE-R probably a couple grand at most, the Fiat maybe 5-6. The SE-R would be difficult to re-acquire and it wouldn't be _my_ car. The Fiat would be easy, and I might be OK with something else entirely (early Spider, other sports car, etc.) I have started talking about this with one of my best friends, who I went to engineering school with and who shares my orientation towards cars and understands these things (in his case, it's the sport-package '99 Miata he bought when he graduated, and which I have right of first refusal for if he ever thinks of selling it). There is a certain tension I feel between, on the one hand, my "keeper" tendencies - when I find something I like, I keep it for ages and ages - and my love of about a million different cars and my desire to try them all. I imagine a scenario where I have one project/fun car that is sort of a rolling car, where I try something new every couple of years. If I Were King, I'd have the Porsche 911 I've always wanted, a roundie 2002, an OG Mini, a Citroen DS, an old Wagoneer, an old pickup, one or two giant American boats, something Italian, a Tatra, and on and on and on. And still my SE-R. And I would track down the 1953 Chevy that my grandmother drove from 1954 to 1987, probably still being driven somewhere in Colombia. And I would somehow get a hold of one of the W116 Mercedes sedans that family friends have been driving for 40 years in Venezuela (note the common thread of sentimentality here). My girlfriend constantly teases me for how much time I spend looking at "car porn" - BaT, CL, etc.

Nothing is going to change for a few months at the very least, if it ever does, when it comes to how many cars I own - I need to finish the SE-R and get it driveable and registered before I can even think of getting rid of the garage. I have been actively (if patiently, since there's no hurry) shopping for a replacement for my Boringmobile. Generally something that is an equal-value car, but sometimes I think 'fuck it, maybe I'll just get something cheaper and fun and put the extra money into bodywork for the Fiat' or 'fuck it, I want that SR20VE Egg (http://madison.craigslist.org/cto/5020840566.html) because I can enjoy it _right_now_ and I can sell it again later...' and etc. I do try to think of buying value - something really well-bought that I can either not lose money on reselling later or even make some money on.

Ask yourself this: once you FIRE, what do you intend to do with your time?

If you're like me, and you love cars like you say, your plan revolves around having the time to work on your cars.  If that's the case, why would you sell them?  Maybe find cheaper storage, but the goal is to have the time to spend enjoying the things important to you, and for you it sounds like these cars.  They are basically worthless (probably ~$5k ea) to anyone else, yet will cost you much more $$$ to re-acquire some day if that's what you chose. 

I'm sorta in the same boat.  I have a sports car I love almost as much as my wife and kid.  Buying it was the realization of a dream for me.  It's relatively plebian (but will kick the shit out of those suggested Miatas ;) but it's something I've always wanted.  It's paid for, and my garage space is "Free" but it still represents about $15k of tied-up capital sitting on 4 wheels.  But that said, I think about what I'd rather do than have that car, and for me, the answer is literally "nothing." 

For you it's even tougher because while I love my year/model of my car, you could replace it with an exact same make/model and I'd still be okay with it.  For you, it's THOSE TWO CARS specifically.  The relatively tiny amount of money you'd realize selling them are nothing compared with what it would take if you decided you wanted them back.  And you will.

Trirod

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I have wanted a Porsche 911 (let's say a 3.0 SC or 3.2 Carrera) for nearly my whole life (I had a model when I was 2, and announced my desire to own one on my 4th birthday) and they are out of reach - I could have stretched 10 years ago and bought a nice one and it would be worth triple now, but forget it now. I could have bought one five years ago and maybe I should have, but its too late now. The trick is to identify the really good values in cheap fun cars before their values go up!

I feel your pain there.  About 5 years ago I was looking for a 911 Carerra or SC, but decided that at 12k-20k (depending on age/condition) that was too much and instead I got a 944S2 for 8k.  While the 944 has been a great car, its value has been flat and the 911's have doubled since then.

Anyway, I would be hating to pay $200/month for a garage so definitely get it down to 2 cars. Personally I would sell the Accord and the Sentra and buy something like a GTi that's fun but also practical.  I can see the attraction of fixing up the Sentra since it has been a good car to you, but sounds like it's going to take some work and energy to do that, so it just depends if you really have that time and energy.

Chris22

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I have wanted a Porsche 911 (let's say a 3.0 SC or 3.2 Carrera) for nearly my whole life (I had a model when I was 2, and announced my desire to own one on my 4th birthday) and they are out of reach - I could have stretched 10 years ago and bought a nice one and it would be worth triple now, but forget it now. I could have bought one five years ago and maybe I should have, but its too late now. The trick is to identify the really good values in cheap fun cars before their values go up!

I feel your pain there.  About 5 years ago I was looking for a 911 Carerra or SC, but decided that at 12k-20k (depending on age/condition) that was too much and instead I got a 944S2 for 8k.  While the 944 has been a great car, its value has been flat and the 911's have doubled since then.

Anyway, I would be hating to pay $200/month for a garage so definitely get it down to 2 cars. Personally I would sell the Accord and the Sentra and buy something like a GTi that's fun but also practical.  I can see the attraction of fixing up the Sentra since it has been a good car to you, but sounds like it's going to take some work and energy to do that, so it just depends if you really have that time and energy.

Yup.  2 of my 4 favorite cars from my high school era are going up up and up and will be completely out of reach soon (Porsche 993, Acura NSX).  A third, the Ferrari F355, is so astronomically expensive to maintain that it's not worth dreaming about :(

The 4th is in my garage :)

otter

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OK.....what's the fourth? :)


I have wanted a Porsche 911 (let's say a 3.0 SC or 3.2 Carrera) for nearly my whole life (I had a model when I was 2, and announced my desire to own one on my 4th birthday) and they are out of reach - I could have stretched 10 years ago and bought a nice one and it would be worth triple now, but forget it now. I could have bought one five years ago and maybe I should have, but its too late now. The trick is to identify the really good values in cheap fun cars before their values go up!

I feel your pain there.  About 5 years ago I was looking for a 911 Carerra or SC, but decided that at 12k-20k (depending on age/condition) that was too much and instead I got a 944S2 for 8k.  While the 944 has been a great car, its value has been flat and the 911's have doubled since then.

Anyway, I would be hating to pay $200/month for a garage so definitely get it down to 2 cars. Personally I would sell the Accord and the Sentra and buy something like a GTi that's fun but also practical.  I can see the attraction of fixing up the Sentra since it has been a good car to you, but sounds like it's going to take some work and energy to do that, so it just depends if you really have that time and energy.

Yup.  2 of my 4 favorite cars from my high school era are going up up and up and will be completely out of reach soon (Porsche 993, Acura NSX).  A third, the Ferrari F355, is so astronomically expensive to maintain that it's not worth dreaming about :(

The 4th is in my garage :)