Hoarding vs Saving

[SugarMountain]

I was reading the comments in today's MMM entry and someone pointed to http://www.andthenshesaved.com, so I've been skimming that a bit.  I came across an entry about purging stuff.  http://www.andthenshesaved.com/and-then-she-saved/the-clearout.html and I've seen it touched on in various places here at MMM.  Hoarding is something I struggle with.  Not enough that I'm going to end up on the Discovery Channel, but enough that when I watch Hoarders or similar shows it can be a little uncomfortable because it gets too close to home.

The problem I've got is I tend to be pretty frugal, and then I never want to get rid of stuff "because I might need it" and don't want to buy it again. Whether it's clothes that doesn't quite fit, but will "as soon as I drop 10 pounds" (or my old baggy clothes after I did drop 50 pounds).  Or left over scrap wood, copper pipe, and wire from various projects. 

How do you balance between keeping things that (may) have value that you may use in the future and not getting buried in them in your quest to be frugal?

[HumanAfterAll]

I've been inspired by some of the posts here, about the "1-in-1-out rule" (don't buy a non-consumable unless you get rid of something else), and the "get rid of 100 things this month" challenge.

Sometimes I go into the garage, and I know I have a tool or a spare part somewhere, but I can't find it.  That really pisses me off.  This is what usually starts me on a getting-rid-of-stuff kick.

Growing up, my father's garage was a mess, a stockpile of stuff that might be useful some day.  He had floor to ceiling shelves, two awesome workbenches, and they were all covered in stuff.  He would even use the lid of the trash can as a storage place.  Then when we had to throw something out... ugh, frustration.

My philosophy on balance is: if I haven't used it in the last year, sell it or donate it!  I would rather buy 10% of that stuff a second time, than keep it all around getting in my way and making my life miserable.

I want a clean workbench, and a small enough collection of stuff that I can easily find what I have!

[AJ]

How do you balance between keeping things that (may) have value that you may use in the future and not getting buried in them in your quest to be frugal?

That's a hard one for me as well. Its important to realize that stuff takes space, and space costs money. Less stuff means you can live in a smaller house, or rent a room out (to a boarder or just for storage). Also for me, having a clean, welcoming home is important because we love having people over. A messy, cluttered house makes us more likely to go out with friends rather than invite them over, which negates any savings from hoarding. Its hard to correlate 1-for-1 (i.e. if I only keep 1 stock pot rather than 2, how much will the recovered space same me?), but as a principle, over time, I think that getting rid of unused things saves money and time. Also, I hate cleaning, and the less stuff I have the less dirty the house can get.

My rule is: If I can keep it organized, clean, and presentable (if I would be comfortable inviting my boss or pastor over), it can stay. Otherwise, I have to gather up the gumption to part with it.

Hope that helps :)

[Dee]

My difficulty is not so much in identifying stuff I'd be willing to part with but knowing what to do with it to have it be gone. I understand that there options like freecycle that provide a potential new home for so many things. That's part of the problem -- because I know there is somewhere besides the garbage that most of my extraneous stuff could go, I am reluctant to throw things out. I think I could muster up the energy and will to purge things by putting them in the garbage easily enough but I seem to be missing the extra drive that would be required to actually find a new home for random things.

With old clothes, I do all right -- I know to just drop it off at Good will. As easy-peasy as it gets for me.

Most other things -- problematic.

Examples:
Old electronics. I've heard Future Shop take these but haven't tried dropping things out yet. I have an broken cable box and LCD screen that got banged up ready to go. They've been by the door for disposal for months. I keep wanting to add to the pile because I have two or three old laptops that also need to go. But I think I'm supposed to clear the disk of personal information before getting rid of it. But I keep procrastinating on this step. Because I'm not sure the laptops even boot up. And even if they did, I'm not sure how to wipe the drives. So everything is at a standstill with regard to old electronics.

Incomplete craft projects. There's always the hope I'll complete them... and until I do, what else can I do but keep them around? Where else could they go?

Cards and letters I've received.

Old paperwork, bills especially. I figure these should be shredded before disposal, so there's that extra step that seems to be a tipping point for me to keep things around.  Plus there may be a few important papers intermingled in there that shouldn't be disposed of. So everything wind up staying. I did actually use some very old records of employment and letters of offers to show proof of pensionable time I was able to buy back so there is some plausibility in some of these things being useful.

Etc, etc, etc.

[Rich M]

First rule of hoarding is: The day after you throw it away, you find you needed it.  it's a Murphy law for sure.

But this perception is one reason I find I hoard.

Whatever you do, first realize that all the stuff you have is a sunk cost.  You spent the money and you can't get the money back.  The best you can do is resell it or reuse it.  But accept the loss in money.

Next you look at these items and ask yourself why you have them and don't use them?  Are they clothes that don't fit or are they novelty items you bought that you regret.

Learn from them so that the next time you have the desire to buy a novelty item, you think twice.  You don't really need that stuffed sealion you saw when you were visiting Monterey, CA and saw some cool sealions even though it felt great to carry that memory home that day.

How much does it cost to keep this stuff?  You might have a huge basement and it seems to cost nothing.  The worst case scenario, and one that MMM ought to jump on is (Hey MMM for a new topic), renting storage units to keep stuff.  That is as bad or worse than credit cards.  But that also applies to buying storage shed to put stuff in in the back yard.

Donating stuff is great.  You get rid of it, you help someone else who can use it.  You can deduct it from taxes.  And it feels good.

I think the question is.  Will you use this in the next few months.  If the answer is no or you find you didn't use it over that period, then it's out of the house.  You either have something that is garbage, that needs to be tossed or something that can be used by someone else in the time you are hoarding it--or something that can be recycled and made into something great.


I think the jeans problem is classic.  We keep our clothes when we gain weight because we have a goal and try to use that to motivate our goal.  The problem is our reward for making our goal is our old pair of jeans.  I know it sounds antimustachian, but why not make the reward, a new pair of jeans.  I'm not saying spend a boat load,  but complete suffering is not part of the philosophy.  One can suffer to the extreme, live in a tent, etc to get rich but there is a balance.

[Somnambulist]

My difficulty is not so much in identifying stuff I'd be willing to part with but knowing what to do with it to have it be gone.

This is a problem I had early on. Goodwill, eBay, and Craigslist work for 90% of our stuff. The other 10% family usually takes or ends up in the trash.

Old electronics. I've heard Future Shop take these but haven't tried dropping things out yet. I have an broken cable box and LCD screen that got banged up ready to go. They've been by the door for disposal for months. I keep wanting to add to the pile because I have two or three old laptops that also need to go. But I think I'm supposed to clear the disk of personal information before getting rid of it. But I keep procrastinating on this step. Because I'm not sure the laptops even boot up. And even if they did, I'm not sure how to wipe the drives. So everything is at a standstill with regard to old electronics.

You definitely want to wipe the computers. Use this program:

http://www.dban.org/

I have used it for all of the computers I have gifted/sold/donated.

Incomplete craft projects. There's always the hope I'll complete them... and until I do, what else can I do but keep them around? Where else could they go?

I reuse parts, finish it, or toss/gift/donate it.

Cards and letters I've received.

My wife and I keep a keepsake box for this stuff. It all stays in one place and only important things go into it.

Old paperwork, bills especially. I figure these should be shredded before disposal, so there's that extra step that seems to be a tipping point for me to keep things around.  Plus there may be a few important papers intermingled in there that shouldn't be disposed of. So everything wind up staying. I did actually use some very old records of employment and letters of offers to show proof of pensionable time I was able to buy back so there is some plausibility in some of these things being useful.

We scan all paperwork we may need, i.e. Mortgage docs, tax returns, etc. and upload it to Google Docs for permanent storage. After that we burn it in her folks' wood burning stove, or drop it in the shredders at work. Doing this we emptied a two tier filing cabinet occupying substantial space in a corner of the room.

[LindseyBob]

I know where you're coming from on this one. I've been on a bit of a journey when it comes to clearing out/keeping (mostly forced on me by moving to a tiny apartment!). A few lessons and words of advice I picked up which I found useful:

1. If its not useful, beautiful or sentimental then it goes. Of course you may have varying degrees of what is 'useful'...

2. Clothes you havent worn in on over a year you probably won't wear again - get rid

3. Don't  keep (or buy more!) clothes that don't fit you, particularly if they're too small in the hope you'll lose weight. It's depressing and a waste of space. Sell them on ebay and buy a couple of items you really love and that actually fit.

4.  Be ruthless! I know this is easy to say, but really most 'things' arn't important. Your health, independance and loved ones are of true value.

[zinnie]

Good ideas in this thread! This is a hard one for me, but I veer on the side of saving everything. Nothing makes me angrier than having to purchase something that I had once but got rid of (or that I had once but my husband threw away, because he hates clutter!)

The solution I've found to this problem, though, is to just stop bringing things into the house that I can't ideally use for the rest of my life. And to try to find new ways to use up the things I have. (I always remind myself too what it was like cleaning out my grandfather's house, the man who lived simply but still never threw anything away.)

When I do get rid of stuff, I donate or give the items away. I've passed things on to neighbors, co-workers, etc. a lot recently.

[velocistar237]

If you really need something that you get rid of, you can borrow, rent, or buy used. The first two are better for people with hoarding tendencies, since you won't hoard something that belongs to someone else, especially a stranger.

[zinnie]

If you really need something that you get rid of, you can borrow, rent, or buy used. The first two are better for people with hoarding tendencies, since you won't hoard something that belongs to someone else, especially a stranger.

We used to do the borrowing things a lot, through that one website that I can't remember the name of anymore Edit: Neighborrow. It matches you with people in your neighborhood and everyone lists items they can share. It was mostly things like tools, vacuums, gardening supplies, etc. Genius idea! It's silly that so many of us own things that we only use once a month or less.

[velocistar237]

We used to do the borrowing things a lot, through that one website that I can't remember the name of anymore

NeighborGoods?

[zinnie]

We used to do the borrowing things a lot, through that one website that I can't remember the name of anymore

NeighborGoods?

You responded before I edited. Neighborrow, although it doesn't look like it's around anymore. I'll look up NeighborGoods, thanks!

[ShavenLlama]

Everytime I watch Hoarders, I spend the next day cleaning!

The last apartment I lived in had a ridiculously small closet, so I had no choice but "1 in, 1 out." Now that I have a bigger closet, I still try to purge at least annually.

Regarding your electronics and hard drives- in my area, I see events several times a year sponsored by the Chamber of Commerce or the Boy Scouts or whoever who take used electronics for recycling. Somehow it's a money-maker for them. There's a note on the flier for the one this month that they have certified data destruction for hard drives.

My mother-in-law's credit union has a twice a year paper shredding event. They even had donuts and coffee. She was stoked.

As far as souvenirs and stuff, I still have to remind myself that just because it's cute i don't NEED it. Not that I stopped myself from getting a stuffed scorpion toy in Zion last year, but I have cut way back. And it does have a home on a shelf, not jsut stuffed in a box. :)

[SugarMountain]

1. If its not useful, beautiful or sentimental then it goes. Of course you may have varying degrees of what is 'useful'...

To say nothing of the varying degrees of sentimental. lol.

You guys have all inspired me to start purging!  If I can get myself to get rid of my 72/74/75/69 frankenstein MGB that has been hogging expensive garage space for 14 years now without moving, I'll have made real progress. I currently own 3 cars, a motorcycle, and three bicycles.  At least the bikes each see some periodic use as do two of my very-unmustachian German cars.  The MGB and the motorcyle?  Not so much.

[SugarMountain]

Also, Best Buy recycles non-working electronics for free.  (I believe there may be a charge for monitors).

Some goals for me for the next couple of weeks.  I currently have and need to dispose of:
- Cast iron clawfoot tub + shower attachments
- 3 stereo receivers
- 1 pair stereo speakers
- 1 old PC.  And I mean old.  circa 1995.  Surprised it doesn't have tubes in it.
- 1 turntable (I have two. use neither, probably should ditch both.  baby steps)
- College textbooks.  If I haven't cracked them open in 23 years since graduation, I probably won't be reviewing calculus and physics anytime soon.  It's all online these days anyway, right?
- Trailer hitch mount bike rack.  Despite owning 3 cars right now, none of them have a trailer hitch.  Could probably part with the receiver ball I've got laying around too.
- All skis and boots that haven't been used in 2 years. (In addition to 3 bicycles I have at least 3 sets of skis laying around.  Maybe 4, I'm not sure.  2 see active use).
- Sony 24" Tube tv.  Was really nice in its day, which wasn't very long ago.
- Dish network receiver.  They gave me a new one.  I still have a really old one.  While I'm at it, I should cancel Dish.  Soon, maybe.
- Non-working hydraulic floor jack.
- Old clothes too numerous to list.

Heh.  Just typing this out makes me feel a bit better.  Then again, I'm great at planning things like this.  Less great at implementing them.

The other anti-mustachian behavior that nobody has mentioned that I am hugely guilty of is because I have so much shit laying around just waiting to be used *someday*, I often can't find the shit I need to use *right now* and buy a new version of that shit.  This is particularly true of tools, I'm pretty sure I have multiple soldering torches, duplicate wrench sets, unused paint brushes, cleaning supplies, tape measures, etc, but it's also somewhat true of clothes.  (Don't get my girlfriend started on my vast quantity of shoes.  She claims I have more than she does.  I think mine just take more room because of my size 13 feet.  hahaha.  I've got like 4 pairs of Merrills in various states of worn-out-ness (I've definitely gotten my money's worth out them though), two types of hiking boots, sorrells, some other waterproof boots, motorcycle boots, basketball shoes, racquetball shoes (last worn circa 2004), soccer cleats (last worn circa 1998), old cross trainers, a couple old pairs of running shoes, Bass Wegans (with tassles and without, penny loafers in burgandy, and in black), at least three other pairs of dress shoes I can think of off the top of my head that I never wear (one pair I'm not sure I've worn since interviewing while in college 23 years ago).

Jesus.  Maybe I *do* need to go on Hoarders.  Although, this has been a bit cathartic just typing it out.  Progress report to come on Monday.

I have to laugh at myself though.  As I was spell checking and proof-reading, I started thinking, "you know, I should see if I can sell some of this to put in my 'stache."  And that's kind of where I struggle against the urge to purge and the "save/make money" feelings but that kind of thinking that gets me to procrastinate getting rid of stuff.

[ShavenLlama]

Print out your comment and get your sharpie ready for crossing stuff off this weekend!

Regarding your shop- Think LEAN!

The tub does sound cool. Fill it with dirt and make it a artsy-fartsy planter in the back yard.

Good luck, sir!

[velocistar237]

Sounds like one hell of a garage sale.

[mugwump]

There's a website called unclutterer.com which has all kinds of encouragement and useful information for people who are overwhelmed by stuff.

[SugarMountain]

Progress:
- Bundled up and took to ARC (a Goodwill-like thrift shop) 1 suit, 2 pair pants, 9 shirts, 7 pairs of shoes/boots, and some miscellaneous other crap.
- Put out for the dumpster scavengers 1 Dish LMB, 1 pair skis, one audio mix thing that I think someone else left by the dumpster years ago.  No idea if it works, but it looks cool.
- Threw out some other clothes that were beyond ARC standards.
- Listed the clawfoot tub, a trailer hitch mount bike rack, and a water heater (upgrading to tankless for a variety of reasons).  Water heater looks like it's sold, although until I have cash in hand, I'm not counting it yet.

So, small progress and a few bucks for the 'stache.

[Arbor33]

I have to voice a contrary opinion on all of this.

I feel that if you have stuff that you feel you may need, you should keep it. However, you should only keep it if you can keep it organized. My grandfather was notorious for implementing this philosophy. Everything in his "collection" was grouped, labeled, and set neatly on a shelf or placed in a mason jar. He passed away 11 year ago and to this day, anyone in the family can still navigate with ease whenever they need a part or tool.

Just don't be wasteful.

[atelierk]

Nothing makes me angrier than having to purchase something that I had once but got rid of.

I've found that hanging onto clutter because of my frugal "what if I need it someday" mindset has a similar cost. More than once I've gone out and bought a new item simply because I couldn't find the one I knew I already owned. I own duplicates of a number of things because of this. Plus there's a sense of shame or inadequacy that goes with this - I tend to beat myself up over my seeming inability to control my clutter and get organized. Argh. Very frustrating.

[HumanAfterAll]

atelierk - exactly.  I'm more upset by buying a duplicate because I can't find the original, than by re-purchasing something after getting rid of it. 

[snoringcat]

My problem is books...I most likely have 1000+ bought mostly at secondhand stores and yard sales. I now keep a journal and once I have read a book I write a synopsis and then put the book in a box. Once I have a few, I give them away or sell them to a secondhand book store for a bit of pocket money. My goal is to get rid of more than half and go the ebook route eventually.

[Dicey]

A slight mind shift has been an incredibly freeing. I tell myself that if I get rid of something I eventually have a need for, I have the resources to buy it again. With all my mustachian skills, I know that I could find it (or something similar) for well within my means. It really helps.
So does taking lots of digital pictures. If I know I can "see" it again, that (hereditary) hoarding part of my brain relaxes. Sometimes I now find myself getting of things because I don't want to bother with taking the pictures!

It's working for me, I hope it helps you, too.

[HeidiO]

   Check out www.flylady.org .   I grew up in a disorganized, messy house and she taught me how to keep a clean house.  I think her website and emails are a godsend, especially for hoarders, people with OCD, people who are depressed, or who are in unhappy relationships. Her sight tends to appeal to women more than men, and she sends a HUGE amount of emails, but I think she is super helpful to a certain demographic (women who feel guilt over the state of their house.)  Her emails are sometimes testimonials about the products she sells, but I figure there is no cost to this program, so she has to make a living somehow.  I just delete those emails.
Heidi