Author Topic: High Frequency Trading  (Read 6341 times)

Donovan

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High Frequency Trading
« on: September 27, 2012, 09:41:56 PM »
I have an interview with a High Frequency Trading investment firm in a few weeks and I was wondering if the more educated investors among the readers could help me out with the ethics behind the practice.  The firms that partake in HFT have plenty of words and data to show that they are not dangerous or disruptive in the stock market, while traditional investors seem to feel that they are evil and dangerous.

Arguments for HFT:
Circuit breakers keep them from running rampant and destroying everything (ala the 2010 Flash Crash)
Provides liquidity in the market by quickly buying/selling stocks as they are offered
Does not have an unfair advantage, even though they can trade before actual people can even see the offer
Does not affect long term stock prices because nothing is held for long/overnight (and not based on overoptimistic valuations)

Arguments against HFT:
Could run rampant and destroy everything (ala the 2010 Flash Crash) (this is a big one)
Unfair advantage due to speed of transfers (millisecond trades)
Generally unethical, skimming small amounts off of each trade and generally acting as a vampire on the market (this is the bigger one for me)

The workplace is currently my second choice of three companies that have approached me.  It seems like a decent place to work, and I'm sure the job would be exceptionally interesting and challenging (mix puzzling algorithms with economics? Ok!).  But I'd rather avoid having substantial moral dilemmas wrapped up in my work.

What do you think about the HFT business in general?
 

gooki

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2012, 03:28:50 AM »
I have no qualms with it.

maidesu

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2012, 05:37:34 AM »
I'm not really sure what's wrong with HFT. 

1. Theoretically, they do not hinder stock prices. Even if they did cause the 2010 Flash Crash, the underlying value of the company that an average person owns has not changed even though the stock price has. You can be sure there are plenty of other investment people out there waiting for such an opportunity to hop in and snap up cheap shares in order to sell it when the price returns to fair market value.

2. I don't think they do not really buy shares just for fun. Making trades does cost some kind of money / opportunity cost so it would be wasteful to do it just for the sake of doing it. They all have their models for things and try to predict market movement better than all the other HFT companies. The only people who should worry about the quality of their trades are their investors... and perhaps employees since a poorly performing company may mean job risk. However, it is not generally a danger to society as a whole.

3. The whole vampire thing on the market? They are a valued component of the market because they influence short term prices. You need market forces that make stocks more liquid (otherwise stocks would have lower valuation [bad for the general public] / higher effective cost of capital [bad for companies and perhaps society if only super amazing ROI companies could be funded] since lack of liquidity demands a rate spread to accommodate the risk of being stuck with a potentially crappy company or not be able to withdraw cash when needed). Since they provide this valuable service, they need to be compensated somehow.

Saving mom

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2012, 05:45:39 AM »
It's being promoted a lot and I know the main promoter of various high frequency trading conferences all over the globe. The fact that he is the expert on HFT being interviewed in the news makes me highly skeptical. Personally I think it is disruptive to the market and is likely to be curtailed by regulators down the road.

tooqk4u22

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2012, 07:06:44 AM »
I don't think it affects the long term valutations of stock prices either good or bad, but they absolutely have an unfair advantage and invest heavily in the computing power, programming, and to be at a location that is closest to the exchange.  They do this for a reason....advantage!  The business model allows them to flood the market with false trades, then withdraw them once they know the pricing and then the flood with real trades to arbitrage the information (this all happens in milliseconds). 

I think it is unethical but not by the company doing and instead by the regulators and exchanges that allow it.  To help level the field there should be limitations on the false (data finder) trades and reinstating the uptick rule. 

elindbe2

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2012, 07:51:07 AM »
I actually work in the industry.   I do take issue with your use of "unfair advantage".  It's absolutely true that the average investor cannot trade at anywhere near HFT, but the advantage that HFT firms has comes from investing lots of time, energy and man-hours.  Saying we have an unfair advantage is like saying an intelligent, well-researched investor has an unfair advantage over the average joe-schmoe.  We certainly want to keep our advantage, but you're free to start your own company and try to compete for the market.  Same as anywhere in the business world.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 07:57:54 AM by elindbe2 »

Use it up, wear it out...

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2012, 08:18:04 AM »
I work in the industry, and the "evidence" gathered on the impact of HFT in the markets is nebulous, at best.

It's certainly a fair and reasonable way to participate in the markets the way they're currently structured, particularly in the U.S.

There is a lot of hand-wringing right now about the retail investor leaving the equities markets, and some evidence that it's happening. It's often blamed on the volatility of the markets, and fingers pointed at HFT. I haven't seen any real proof that there is a correlation here. We do know that the markets are fragile right now - liquidity is shallow and fragmented across multiple venues, retail investors continue to make net withdrawals from equities, and unexplained mini-flash-crashes occur and correct themselves multiple times daily. It's not clear to anyone how much HFT has to do with any of this (either positively or negatively).

IMHO, both the problems I've cited and HFT itself are a consequence of the market structure and changing technology. It's not clear to me if the regulators or government will take action to correct the fragile markets, or what impact that would have on the HFT business. As an example, the European parliament today unanimously voted, as part of MiFID II, to require that orders be held for 500 milliseconds, a HUGE difference for HF traders.

If it is a job you're interested in, I'd say go for it, and that it's a morally neutral position to take. Be aware that regulatory changes may add significant uncertainty to your chosen field.

tooqk4u22

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 09:14:38 AM »
I actually work in the industry.   I do take issue with your use of "unfair advantage".  It's absolutely true that the average investor cannot trade at anywhere near HFT, but the advantage that HFT firms has comes from investing lots of time, energy and man-hours.  Saying we have an unfair advantage is like saying an intelligent, well-researched investor has an unfair advantage over the average joe-schmoe.  We certainly want to keep our advantage, but you're free to start your own company and try to compete for the market.  Same as anywhere in the business world.

Clearly you are bias...but it is not the same thing as an inteligent, well researched investor vs. the avg. Joe - HFT is more akin to an inteligent, well researched investor trading on insider information that the avg. Joe doesn't have and can't do and in any event is illegal, except that HFT is legal. 

The reason HFT companies spend so much on technology and infrastruture is precisely to get or increase the unfair advantage, with all the expense being justified by the advantage.


elindbe2

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2012, 09:57:42 AM »
Quote
Clearly you are bias...but it is not the same thing as an inteligent, well researched investor vs. the avg. Joe - HFT is more akin to an inteligent, well researched investor trading on insider information that the avg. Joe doesn't have and can't do and in any event is illegal, except that HFT is legal.

The reason HFT companies spend so much on technology and infrastruture is precisely to get or increase the unfair advantage, with all the expense being justified by the advantage.

I disagree with your example because HFT is legal.  But, I understand what you are saying and, perhaps I was mistaken in claiming it was fair.  Business by its very nature is unfair.  In order to build a successful business you have to gain market share, which means out-competing other people by obtaining some sort of advantage over them (price, quality, advertising, regulatory capture, etc).  So it's unfair in that we are currently able to out-compete other people and businesses in speed.  But it's also fair in that you can start a competing business and try to steal the market from under us.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 10:16:14 AM by elindbe2 »

tooqk4u22

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 12:34:50 PM »
Quote
Clearly you are bias...but it is not the same thing as an inteligent, well researched investor vs. the avg. Joe - HFT is more akin to an inteligent, well researched investor trading on insider information that the avg. Joe doesn't have and can't do and in any event is illegal, except that HFT is legal.

The reason HFT companies spend so much on technology and infrastruture is precisely to get or increase the unfair advantage, with all the expense being justified by the advantage.

I disagree with your example because HFT is legal.  But, I understand what you are saying and, perhaps I was mistaken in claiming it was fair.  Business by its very nature is unfair.  In order to build a successful business you have to gain market share, which means out-competing other people by obtaining some sort of advantage over them (price, quality, advertising, regulatory capture, etc).  So it's unfair in that we are currently able to out-compete other people and businesses in speed.  But it's also fair in that you can start a competing business and try to steal the market from under us.

I explicitly said in my statement that HFT is legal....and because it is legal your point is valid and I agree that it is within the law then while my not be fair to the all it is fine to exploit it.  But my view is that it should be made illegal, or the playing field leveled (such as the uptick rule, increasing the holding period, etc.), the premise of it is just wrong. So it is there where we will have to agree to disagree but in the meantime I wish you all the best in making as much money as you can while you can.


grantmeaname

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2012, 04:55:54 PM »
Jesus, what a long URL.

I saw that same link posted on my other forum this week. For the record, while we're sharing links, Wired had a fantastic article in August about HFT called Raging Bulls.

jbhernandez

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2012, 06:25:53 AM »
As a former daytrader, I see nothing illegal about what I did. When I traded for a firm, we had NO advantage other than programs that anyone could buy. We didn't have  Bloomberg machine, (not me, anyway)etc.

There are so many different styles and trading instruments to trade that it really doesn't affect the markets much in my opinion.

Now, is there insider trading going on out there, sure, but not as rampant as you may think. I recommend reading "The Market Wizards" for anyone who wants to get a feel for some of the trading styles out there.

tooqk4u22

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2012, 07:11:03 AM »
Jesus, what a long URL.

I saw that same link posted on my other forum this week. For the record, while we're sharing links, Wired had a fantastic article in August about HFT called Raging Bulls.

Yes it was a long URL - I don't know how name it like you did.  Thanks for your link - more reinforcement as to why I don't agree with HFT.

tooqk4u22

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2012, 07:12:50 AM »
As a former daytrader, I see nothing illegal about what I did. When I traded for a firm, we had NO advantage other than programs that anyone could buy. We didn't have  Bloomberg machine, (not me, anyway)etc.

There are so many different styles and trading instruments to trade that it really doesn't affect the markets much in my opinion.

Now, is there insider trading going on out there, sure, but not as rampant as you may think. I recommend reading "The Market Wizards" for anyone who wants to get a feel for some of the trading styles out there.

First of all nobody said it was illegal, just that it should be.  Second of all daytrading is way different than HFT.  HFT is purely about manipulating or taking advantage of information and IMO stealing a few pennies inbetween. 

grantmeaname

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2012, 08:25:20 AM »
As a former daytrader, I see nothing illegal about what I did. When I traded for a firm, we had NO advantage other than programs that anyone could buy. We didn't have  Bloomberg machine, (not me, anyway)etc.
We're not talking about whether it's legal, we're talking about whether it's ethical. It's great that you can pat yourself on the back and say "what I just did was legal", but so can the tax department of General Electric after tax season this year. The fact that it's within the law doesn't make it right.

Yes it was a long URL - I don't know how name it like you did.  Thanks for your link - more reinforcement as to why I don't agree with HFT.

Enclose the name in the url tags, then in the first url tag you add "=yourlink.com" (no quotes). So for raging bulls it was {url=link to raging bulls}Raging Bulls{/url}, just with square brackets.

sisca

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Re: High Frequency Trading
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2012, 01:43:41 PM »
Ethical? Legal? Sure, probably both. But does it further the markets real long term goal, of helping good companies get financing? I just dont see it.

Liquidity? Trading 1 share a million times over is not the same as trading a million shares once.
HFT provides volume, not liquidity. And that liquidity can and will disappear if HFTs are uncertain about what is happening. Day traders provide actual liquidity, as they will buy during all times, and always provide liquidity.

Quote stuffing. That constant hammering of exchanges with quotes never intended to be filled occasionally slows down exchanges to the point of failure. Flash crash, FB IPO etc. Price discovery suffers. Trust suffers. And trust matters.

Rebates is often what drives HFTs. Also, being able to manipluate a price can and does influence certain traders to do stupid moves.

These are my main problems with HFTs. Though neither of them is enough to keep me out of the market.