Author Topic: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company  (Read 5937 times)

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Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« on: October 30, 2019, 01:13:24 AM »
I am asking for a friend...This story is for entertainment purposes only...etc etc


"I moved my family (wife, 2 kids ((1 yr and 3 yr old)) plus developing baby due Dec/Jan)  mid-August to Hawaii from Chicago. I started working for a company that does high-end flooring (tiles/countertops/floors) for large resorts and hotels. I am responsible for creating bids to send to the local GC's for upcoming projects and then managing the projects once they begin. Everything was going great for a little while, but the owner's son made a phone call to someone I didn't know (it was one of the partners of our #1 competitor) and asked what they are bidding for a project I was about to submit. The person on the phone said 9M, but my bid was only at 6M. So they kept discussing numbers to see why we were so off and I was directed to raise our price to match theirs. I told them this is illegal and I will not do this. The whole office laughed at me, but after seeing I was serious stopped. I closed my computer and walked out.

The next day, Sat, I met with one of the owners (owner 2) and discussed this. (There are three owners, owner 1 is majority company holder, owner 2 and 3 own the remainder with 2 owning more than 3.) He told me he isn't trying to do anything illegal and was honestly unsure if this is actually illegal. I showed him how the anti-trust law is phrased on how what we are doing clearly violates it. He told me he will seriously consider what I told him. He acknowledged that he never wanted to owner's son to be part of this plan and this is exactly why. He said we haven't done this on many projects but we started to after a GC recommended we (as in our company and our main competitor) stop cutting each other's prices. I told him I will not be part of this, no longer send out bids on my name, no longer work on bids that they have edited and will send an email to the owners explaining what happened. He asked me to keep owner 3 out of the loop, so I did.

Monday I sent the email. The bid was sent out by someone else at 7.7M. A few days later I got a call from owner 1. He was mad and said I shouldn't have sent that email out. He said, "if you need to do everything by the book, this company isn't for you". I was going to leave after I found this out. I spoke to a lawyer to see how I need to protect myself (email was good enough). Going back to Chicago wouldn't work since all my rentals are fully booked. The wife was about to enter her third trimester and we'd be out of insurance. So I spoke with them. They promised to stop doing this and I was ok staying.

About a month later I find out that back in the day, we had two very large projects where all of our profit came from lying about how many bags of self-leveling concrete we poured. You see, we bid the projects with a unit price per self-leveling bag that would be tracked in field and paid per bag. It seems that the number of bags reported was 50% higher than reality. Apparently, 6 brothers documented everything and blackmailed the company who paid them off to leave.

See attachment 1

Alright, brings us current to last week. I'm walking down a project and I notice the field crew isn't reporting the number of self-leveling bags they are pouring. So I ask the PM if they are possibly running that scam again.

See attachment 2

At the same time, I ask my coworkers if we are doing this at that project and I got this.



Alright. By now, my wife is well into her third trimester, all our belongings have arrived on the island. So I meet up with owner 2 again. He tells me that the GC steals from us a lot of money and we do this to stay positive/even. He said the GC doesn't mind if we take money there because it doesn't come from their pocket but the project owner. I wasn't ok with this, especially since these are all "Christian" men from my church.

This Monday, I heard owner 3 direct my coworkers to call our competitors and raise both our prices for a new bid (obviously no one told him not to say that in front of me). So they are still colluding.

Obviously I can't switch to our competition because all it takes is one phone call to tell them I'm the guy against the collusion. I don't want to hurt the hundreds of people I know that work for this company and depend on it. The company isn't forcing me to do anything illegal. I am currently waiting to get a call from owner 1 and possibly get fired. I believe they can't fire me for questioning the legality of their business. I am still doing my job well. Help.


This might help. The current plan is to call a truce with the owners, let me finish out my year until next summer and leave peacefully. "


So what should my friend do? Please remember this is to help my friend, not to make his life harder so please refrain from doing anything other than giving him your advice.

Papa bear

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2019, 05:42:11 AM »
Research whistleblower laws in Hawaii and get a lawyer who knows employment and antitrust law.   

Also, check out health insurance on the exchanges. See what they would cost.  You might be buying on your own...


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chemistk

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2019, 05:51:54 AM »
While there are a few lawyers floating around these forums, this is by no means a good place for legal advice.

As in, your friend should absolutely have all these ducks lined up with a lawyer, preferably one that has experience defending whistleblowers.

I am not a lawyer, but a 5 minute Google search shows that while (since they are a private company) anti-retaliation laws are vague in this case, it's probably pretty likely they (the company) won't want to try to challenge them.

I think your friend is wedged firmly between a rock and a hard place. It would appear he "knows too much" and that upon leaving the company, he's going to need to make sure his side of the story is incredibly solid lest he get dragged through the mud.

Without personalized legal advice, I think his next actions are uncertain. It's noble to think that he could attempt to expose the company (or both of them), but that's a very hard thing to do and would probably draw the ire of a hell of a lot of people by doing so.

SwordGuy

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2019, 06:49:01 AM »
Hawaii is a very small place.   He may have difficulty finding a job there if word gets out.

Dragonswan

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2019, 06:54:54 AM »
Watch your back.  People have had fatal construction accidents for a lot less (fell into cement, backed over by equipment vehicles).  Lawyer up and increase the security around yourself and your family.

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2019, 10:06:59 AM »
The thought of them trying something like running him over when he bikes (he bikes everywhere) and calling it an accident has crossed his mind. Honestly, you can't really protect against that. Time will tell.

Yes, Hawaii is definitely a small place and finding another job would be rough. Honestly, he doesn't want to stay in Hawaii so once this is over he is leaving the islands. Not worth the headache.

He doesn't want to ruin his reputation with that community because most of the workers are from one ethnic community where everyone knows each other. The sad truth is that many of the people in that community are shady too. Maybe removing himself from that community wouldn't be a bad thing. He also doesn't want to ruin the lives of the innocent people that work there but have no idea what's going on.


Papa bear

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2019, 10:11:31 AM »
I think that he still needs to consult with an attorney.  And then I think I’d would tell him to 1) back off and get out or 2) blow the whole thing up, go public, take it to the papers, scorched earth style. 

Especially if he thinks he could be in danger.  Middle ground could be the worst. 

But, attorney first.


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Boll weevil

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2019, 12:36:00 PM »
I probably would’ve either gone to the customer (not the GC, but whoever hired the GC) and/or the district attorney (sounds like collusion/price fixing and fraud are occurring) but there’d probably be a lot of repercussions I haven’t thought about.

So another vote for visiting a lawyer, but go with an idea of what they want the end state to be.

afox

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2019, 01:05:39 PM »
Dont try to be a hero.
Best thing to do is find another job.

bacchi

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2019, 01:09:17 PM »
Document, document, document.

Your friend will get fired. Find another job, forward a copy of the documents to someone he trusts, and get the hell out of Dodge.

Also, Hawaii is a one-consent state when it comes to audio recording conversations.


Eta: Your friend is fucking with people's livelihoods and possibly freedom. Tread with care.

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2019, 01:21:20 PM »


Eta: Your friend is fucking with people's livelihoods and possibly freedom. Tread with care.
[/quote]

That's the hardest part of all of this.

Bernard

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2019, 01:26:22 PM »
No every person is suited to perform every job, and sales in particular is a difficult field, as it often requires to be a bit . . . dishonest, focused on what matters to close the deal. That applies to selling a house, a building's roofing project, a car, or a dress.

Clearly, your friend isn't cut out to the job at hand, where it's a dog eating dog environment, and playing the cards wisely makes all the difference between survival  of the company, retaining a paycheck, and bankruptcy. None of us can pass judgement on another person's moral standards, but since you asked, I'm afraid the best your friend can do is try to hurt his former employer, although I don't see the purpose of that. I have no idea if he will find a suitable job on the Big Island, but in my view he created his problems himself.

One has to be very careful in not crossing the line, but the last thing I would want as an employer is an employee trying to sabotage my business.

My 2 cents.

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2019, 01:47:41 PM »
Your friend is working on the wrong end of the construction business: he would be more suited to working for the people buying contracting work than the people doing contracting work.

As to his current situation, he can't change the culture of contracting on Hawaii in general and he can't change the culture of the company he works for.  He will get into trouble for trying for no benefit whatsoever.

He has two viable options.  The first is to take his wife and kids back to Chicago within the week.  The second, marginally less viable, is to shut up, say nothing, see nothing and do nothing until after his wife has given birth and is able to travel, and then leave within the week.

pbkmaine

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2019, 02:13:25 PM »
He should announce that someone in his family has health problems and that he needs to return home.

Padonak

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2019, 02:24:08 PM »
Lawyer up and document all you can as per lawyers advice. Leave the island. Then report them.

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2019, 06:13:41 PM »
No every person is suited to perform every job, and sales in particular is a difficult field, as it often requires to be a bit . . . dishonest, focused on what matters to close the deal. That applies to selling a house, a building's roofing project, a car, or a dress.

Clearly, your friend isn't cut out to the job at hand, where it's a dog eating dog environment, and playing the cards wisely makes all the difference between survival  of the company, retaining a paycheck, and bankruptcy. None of us can pass judgement on another person's moral standards, but since you asked, I'm afraid the best your friend can do is try to hurt his former employer, although I don't see the purpose of that. I have no idea if he will find a suitable job on the Big Island, but in my view he created his problems himself.

One has to be very careful in not crossing the line, but the last thing I would want as an employer is an employee trying to sabotage my business.

My 2 cents.

This reply was surprising. Do you think he created his problems by saying something instead of minding his own business?

Linea_Norway

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2019, 02:12:03 AM »
No every person is suited to perform every job, and sales in particular is a difficult field, as it often requires to be a bit . . . dishonest, focused on what matters to close the deal. That applies to selling a house, a building's roofing project, a car, or a dress.

Clearly, your friend isn't cut out to the job at hand, where it's a dog eating dog environment, and playing the cards wisely makes all the difference between survival  of the company, retaining a paycheck, and bankruptcy. None of us can pass judgement on another person's moral standards, but since you asked, I'm afraid the best your friend can do is try to hurt his former employer, although I don't see the purpose of that. I have no idea if he will find a suitable job on the Big Island, but in my view he created his problems himself.

One has to be very careful in not crossing the line, but the last thing I would want as an employer is an employee trying to sabotage my business.

My 2 cents.

This reply was surprising. Do you think he created his problems by saying something instead of minding his own business?

The answer surprises me too. The company is obviously breaking anti-corruption laws and it seems like part of the culture there to do that. Or maybe it is just the building companies.

I think your friend cannot come out of this in a good way. He should either join the corruption which he doesn't want to. Or he will be a liability for the company, as they never know whether he will go to the police. And it might be difficult for him to find another job is it is indeed a cultural problem and the rumor about his honesty spreads.

And for selling a house, in Norway at least, dishonesty from the seller can lead to the buyer claiming to make repairs or get compensation for the first 5 years after sale. We are currently in our 4th case against the previous owner of our house. We are now selling ourselves and very honest about everything we know about. But we do formulate ourselves carefully in our official statements, so that we minimize the negative parts.

marty998

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2019, 04:51:51 AM »
You should have posted this on a throwaway account and not used your name (and your wife's name), with a photo of the both of you in your avatar.

Would hate for your friend to be identified.

thesis

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2019, 08:51:21 AM »
Does your friend know about FIRE? This is where being FI could really come in handy. Not that you wouldn't still need to watch your back, but at least the concern about finding work would be diminished. Granted, I've heard pretty much all of Hawaii is an HCOL area.

Yeah, in some parts of the world, you are almost expected to bribe police, for example. Cultures differ. But of course that doesn't mean every culture should get a pass to do whatever it wants, and while I've heard Hawaii has its own uniqueness, it doesn't get a pass when it comes to federal laws. I almost wonder if things like that happening at a large scale may have to do with why Hawaii is such an HCOL in the first place (aside from the demand, because a lot of people would love to live there :) )

That's a tough one. It's one thing if a single company is doing shady business and your testimony could really bring justice. It's another thing if the whole system is messed up. You're going to have a hard time getting people to care. (even Snowden has expressed that getting people to care can be difficult)

Maenad

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2019, 01:28:22 PM »
I have no idea if he will find a suitable job on the Big Island, but in my view he created his problems himself.

I agree somewhat, and I'll explain why.

Your friend is a father. As a parent, his first priority is keeping his children safe, sheltered, and fed. And while his morals and ethics are admirable, going on a moral crusade and losing his livelihood is not following his prime directive. Moral crusades are for after one has assured the safety of one's loved ones.

He needs to see a lawyer and get out of this situation. Move back to the mainland if necessary. His employer probably already thinks he's a threat to their business, their standing in the community as Good Christian Men, and possibly their freedom if their fraudulent activities are bad enough. How unethical are they? Will they fabricate evidence to destroy his reputation? Will he get in an "accident" that's his one warning to back off? Desperate people can do some really bad things.

BicycleB

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2019, 04:23:28 PM »
Judgment call!

If he fights to expose them, he adds big risk to his family, including his own life and limb. Will his wife be proud to to raise children alone if necessary, knowing he was a good man when he walked biked the earth?

If so, then the couple probably has the emotional strength to fight the battle in the event that he lives. Just to check, though - would they feel comfortable spending 2 or 3 years entangled in problems, often unemployed, and with him physically injured, perhaps permanently?

Do they have enough money to handle the above?

If so, he can fight. Lawyer up like the others said. Top up their life insurance, and make sure he has a disability policy. I am not kidding about the insurance and disability policies - try to sign up for these during the next week if he doesn't already have them. Don't drop them until the case is resolved and you live elsewhere.

If not, his objectives should be to escape with life, limb and integrity intact. In this "not" case, I would say that integrity means don't lie, and leave ASAP. Don't try to make it financially perfect, just find the first exit he can stand. Try to leave in 2 to 3 months at latest - maybe just days or weeks. Because staying and retaining integrity could be expensive.

That said, since he has integrity and experience, he could among other things look for work auditing contruction contracts for buyers who actually don't want to get cheated. Note that this not cover all buyers, so research carefully. Depending on his current income, he might find a good new career path!

Part of me wants him to negotiate a 2 month severance check in exchange for not making any further reports. He can leave that day and not return. But even the negotiation could be risky.

Honestly, it's hard to tell over the internet what the right action is. But he should move as quickly and decisively as possible. He's already in deep waters about to hit sharp rocks. I'm guessing he should get out ASAP.

PS. Obviously, keep documentation. Keep a copy offsite because you don't know at what moment his employment will end. Maybe a copy in the cloud, too.

And going forwards, have substantial emergency cash ASAP. Keep it as a permanent practice, and live below their means. In other words, accumulate and retain FU money.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 04:43:44 PM by BicycleB »

nancy33

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2019, 07:53:03 PM »
Your friend might also benefit from seeing a reputable psychiatrist or psychologist to discuss.  If your friend is needing help making a decision or maybe even going out on stress leave. A good confidential setting

powskier

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2019, 11:23:36 PM »
Your friend is getting in above his head in a culture that he isn't part of. Your friend should be careful about ending up under some concrete. Seriously different cultures have different standards. Moral crusades may sound great at Sunday school but the actual world works quite differently. Your friend should experience other cultures before charging in with his principles from a different culture.

To be clear , this is not an opinion on what is or isn't moral, simply an observation that different cultures do things differently and people have had "accidents" for far less than the kind of money you are talking about. Also really dumb to use your regular account with picture of your family. The internet is a tiny place.

To respond to the WWYD aspect: walked away quietly  if my morals were compromised OR asked the boss for a huuuuge bonus by letting him know that what he was doing was illegal but letting him know I'd keep it quiet. But staying there and expecting it to change like you are doing I would never do in a million years. The world is a weird messy place, it's not the boy scouts.

Papa bear

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2019, 07:41:06 AM »
I find it odd that most people are recommending walking away without doing anything. 

These are crimes.  Would you not report a different crime? Or are you the keep your head in the sand and hope someone else figures it out? 

There are actual victims here.  Fraudulently changing material amounts?  Collusion between companies? Are any of these government buildings?  Now you are committing fraud against the government? Not to mention there could be tax implications as well, is everything reported? Inventory correct? That’s tax evasion! As mustachians, shouldn’t we all have the financial backbone to say, “this is wrong!” ?

Still, my advice is to find a lawyer. 
 


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BicycleB

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2019, 02:14:48 PM »
I find it odd that most people are recommending walking away without doing anything. 

These are crimes.  Would you not report a different crime? Or are you the keep your head in the sand and hope someone else figures it out? 

There are actual victims here.  Fraudulently changing material amounts?  Collusion between companies? Are any of these government buildings?  Now you are committing fraud against the government? Not to mention there could be tax implications as well, is everything reported? Inventory correct? That’s tax evasion! As mustachians, shouldn’t we all have the financial backbone to say, “this is wrong!” ?

Still, my advice is to find a lawyer. 
 


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The question of financial cushion has been raised but not answered. That said, OP indicates financial worry on some level. More cushion would be better, but it's too late for that.

Backbone usually has a pejorative implication that if someone doesn't act as you describe, they are scumlike and morally weak. I understand that view. If everyone acted according to it, corruption would shrivel.

But being in a new environment where the organization repeats its behavior means there is probably a tough road ahead. Have you traveled it yourself? Been fired, for reasons just plausible enough that you appeared to be at fault? Been ostracized at work? Suffered tissue damage due to your moral stands?

If not, here is a real life tale from a training session of actual auditors, people whose jobs are to root out the very corruption you describe. The instructor introduced a list of risks that employees (including auditors) risk when reporting corruption. One of the items was "career damage". Because behavior that repeats may secretly be sanctioned by or benefiting management, and results in the ensuing conflict can vary. Another was "tissue damage".

"What is tissue damage?" someone asked. "Physical damage to one's limbs, face or body," replied the instructor.

"Really?" asked someone else.

"Yes," nodded the instructor. "Last year, there was a case (nearby city) where the auditor publicly raised questions of (xyz type of corruption). A few months later, they took a vacation to (place in our state) but never returned."

The class paused. Someone in back asked, "If you're auditing near the border (of US and Mexico) and your client responds to questions by saying 'You know, we're very near the border', should you take that as a threat?"

The person who told me of this incident reports that when they looked over their shoulder to see the person asking the question, behind the questioner was a class participant who had previously worked as a police officer for seven years near the area discussed. Participant's  jaw had dropped open in shock, eyes wide in horror. The instructor paused for emphasis, nodded firmly and said, "Yes, you should consider that a threat."

I am told that the former cop's expression drilled home the point more clearly than anything else.

Do you have experiences of standing up to corruption successfully to recount? Perhaps both sides should be told.

PS. OP, marty998 has a good point. You could easily change your icon to something that doesn't lead back to your friend.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 02:24:48 PM by BicycleB »

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2019, 05:43:37 PM »
If I were the property owner/developer getting bilked for a couple million I would probably appreciate the heads up. And would probably be interested in filing a lawsuit against the contractor(s) for collusion and fraud. Getting a percentage of that would probably amount to far more than a couple months severance. It would also keep your friend's integrity intact.

I can't recall the exact quote about integrity I heard recently from a general but it was something along the lines of "nobody can take your integrity, only you can give it away."

I was a commercial real estate appraiser and looked at a fair number of construction budgets. When it came to construction costs I would always try to verify against comparable construction costs or industry cost manuals. If something seemed off, like the developer saying it was going to cost $5 million to build something when it should have cost $4 million I would report that the value was less than the construction cost.

obstinate

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2019, 10:39:50 PM »
Your friend is a father. As a parent, his first priority is keeping his children safe, sheltered, and fed. And while his morals and ethics are admirable, going on a moral crusade and losing his livelihood is not following his prime directive.
I thank providence that none of the great people of history took this advice. This is the coward's rationalization. I can't say I would do better, but I hope I would not try to use my children to justify my moral weakness.

LetItGrow

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2019, 07:44:41 AM »
Your friend is a father. As a parent, his first priority is keeping his children safe, sheltered, and fed. And while his morals and ethics are admirable, going on a moral crusade and losing his livelihood is not following his prime directive.
I thank providence that none of the great people of history took this advice. This is the coward's rationalization. I can't say I would do better, but I hope I would not try to use my children to justify my moral weakness.

+1

Though I get the other side.

Maenad

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2019, 08:14:57 AM »
I think I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be. I don't mean he should do nothing. I mean he should make sure his children and wife are safe and provided for before he does the right thing, and that he use a lawyer's guidance to determine the right thing. A lawyer can help him determine the political landscape - is there a new state AG who pledged to fight corruption while running for office? Then now could be the time to take this on.

There's a difference between "charging in blindly" and "strategically taking down a corrupt organization". The feeling I got was that the friend was doing more of the former, which tends to result in things like being fired on trumped-up evidence and having his professional reputation damaged. I've heard too many stories of people being scapegoated for their companies' corruption, when the whistleblowers weren't canny enough to watch their backs.

The friend should blow the whistle, should do something about this, but after making sure the family is provided for, whatever that means.

obstinate

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2019, 08:28:47 AM »
I agree that other things being equal it's best not to risk harm to your family. But sometimes doing the right thing will put loved ones in harm's way regardless of best efforts to the contrary.

Padonak

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2019, 08:38:27 AM »
He has to make sure his family is safe, but he also has to make sure he gets a big enough whistle blower award to compensate for all the financial and emotional damage to him and his family.

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2019, 05:12:57 PM »
Sorry I haven't been on in a few days.

Maybe you're right about the avatar so I will change it. Thanks.

I understand what everyone is saying about thinking about the family first. His family is not in any danger at the moment and he really doubts any damage would come to them. This company was blackmailed once before with this same self-leveling scam. The brothers who blackmailed them were workers who had everything documented. The company owners were very level headed, paid them off and moved on. This was 5 years ago. The brothers who blackmailed them are still alive :D

My friend is familiar with the FIRE community, has a solid degree and skills that he can monetize. He's really not worried about the money repercussions of this but is more worried about being the one to take down this company. Lots of his friends work for this company. Most of them know about the scams going on, but they say it's not their business since they aren't estimators but construction workers. He doesn't want to be the guy responsible for destroying his friends' livelihood.

His plan, at the moment, is actually the opposite of what everyone is saying. He plans on staying there until his wife gives birth, leaving peacefully and letting God bring justice. He believes it's just a matter of time until the company is caught and reprimanded. That being said, he will talk to a lawyer to be ready in case they decide to fire him for questioning why the company operates this way. He really doesn't believe they are willing to kill him for this. As a matter of fact, the owner he spoke with never even told the other owners that he knows. He told my friend that it can stay between the two of them.

BTW my friend is involved in the anti-human trafficking movement. He is ready for whatever may come to him and believes that if it's his time to go, then it's his time to go. He doesn't believe in living his life with his head tucked between his legs, house boarded up and fearfully planning his moves. To him, this is what the FIRE community is all about. Being able to break chains that hold you back from living the life that is going to benefit the world most.

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2019, 05:25:22 PM »
You changed your avatar and name but your signature has a link to your blog.

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2019, 05:27:58 PM »
Sorry I haven't been on in a few days.

Maybe you're right about the avatar so I will change it. Thanks.

I understand what everyone is saying about thinking about the family first. His family is not in any danger at the moment and he really doubts any damage would come to them. This company was blackmailed once before with this same self-leveling scam. The brothers who blackmailed them were workers who had everything documented. The company owners were very level headed, paid them off and moved on. This was 5 years ago. The brothers who blackmailed them are still alive :D

My friend is familiar with the FIRE community, has a solid degree and skills that he can monetize. He's really not worried about the money repercussions of this but is more worried about being the one to take down this company. Lots of his friends work for this company. Most of them know about the scams going on, but they say it's not their business since they aren't estimators but construction workers. He doesn't want to be the guy responsible for destroying his friends' livelihood.

His plan, at the moment, is actually the opposite of what everyone is saying. He plans on staying there until his wife gives birth, leaving peacefully and letting God bring justice. He believes it's just a matter of time until the company is caught and reprimanded. That being said, he will talk to a lawyer to be ready in case they decide to fire him for questioning why the company operates this way. He really doesn't believe they are willing to kill him for this. As a matter of fact, the owner he spoke with never even told the other owners that he knows. He told my friend that it can stay between the two of them.

BTW my friend is involved in the anti-human trafficking movement. He is ready for whatever may come to him and believes that if it's his time to go, then it's his time to go. He doesn't believe in living his life with his head tucked between his legs, house boarded up and fearfully planning his moves. To him, this is what the FIRE community is all about. Being able to break chains that hold you back from living the life that is going to benefit the world most.

Whether your friend is your friend or you, he might not appreciate you having a very distinctive and identifiable link in your signature. 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 06:02:09 PM by Villanelle »

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2019, 05:59:44 PM »
My friend 100% doesn't care about my username/signature or whatnot. The personal blog has been inactive for a while now so that had to be removed either way.

Thanks for looking out though.

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2019, 11:55:41 PM »
Sounds like your friend has made his decision and is ready to follow it.

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2019, 07:48:00 AM »
This company was blackmailed once before with this same self-leveling scam. The brothers who blackmailed them were workers who had everything documented. The company owners were very level headed, paid them off and moved on. This was 5 years ago. The brothers who blackmailed them are still alive :D

I just had to comment on this - they've been blackmailed for this fraud once already and they're still doing it?! Wow. That's... wow. I guess you can't fix stupid.

Thanks for the update, I hope your friend gets out of this smoothly and that his wife's delivery goes well!

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2019, 04:47:38 PM »
Thank you. He finally has peace about it.

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2019, 08:27:53 AM »
His plan, at the moment, is actually the opposite of what everyone is saying. He plans on staying there until his wife gives birth, leaving peacefully and letting God bring justice. He believes it's just a matter of time until the company is caught and reprimanded. That being said, he will talk to a lawyer to be ready in case they decide to fire him for questioning why the company operates this way. He really doesn't believe they are willing to kill him for this. As a matter of fact, the owner he spoke with never even told the other owners that he knows. He told my friend that it can stay between the two of them.
God acts through people.  If everyone walked away waiting for God to do it, nothing would get done.

Maybe my career is weird, but my large company drills ethics into us as a govt contractor.  Even the hint of corruption is to be screamed into a mega phone so it can be stamped out early before we risk large penalties later.  Given that upper management supports and encourages the corruption in his company he will have to whistle-blow external.

I'd get as much documented and recorded as possible.  Yes, he is supposed to watch out for his family, but having a less corrupt society to live in is watching out for them.  Corruption hurts other families with children.  I had an ethics course long ago that had a great scenario that applies here.

Best
1. You steal, everyone else is honest.
2. Everyone is honest.
3. Everyone steals.
4. You are honest and everyone else steals.
Worst

If everyone aims for the best scenario for themselves #1, you end up at #3. As a whole we need to aim for the best scenario for everyone which is #2. 

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2019, 09:45:16 AM »
Wow, this is somewhat similar to something I went through while I was in college.  I'll share my story so you can see the similarities and the outcome.

While in college, I took a job as a receptionist/office manager for a small construction company.  At first it seemed as though it was a small company with a few men who worked on the job site, so I didn't really see any of the workers.  For over a year, my job consisted of unlocking the door in the morning and locking it when I left at night.  Answering any phone calls (<1 per day).  Transferring any phone calls to a different company in NY.  Walking to the post office and picking up any packages (RFPs), and if there were any, I'd call the NY office and tell them what package came in.  Within a few days, someone would come to the office to pick up the package.    That was it.   I spent my time reading or doing homework.

After about 10 months in the job, someone from the Department of Labor started showing up at the door with subpoenas. 

At some point around this time, the receptionist from the other company told me what was happening :  the owner of the NY company had been caught bribing an official (she described it as a shakedown and that everyone had to do it) and that in order to continue to bid on any government work, they created this second company with a different person as president.  In her opinion, they were just getting around a dirty official.

Much later, I found out that the bribery charge was real, and that there were actually 3 companies all bidding on the same jobs.  Once a company was chosen and the results of the lowest three bidders made public, the first and second would drop out, providing a bigger profit for the 3rd.  In addition, there were irregularities with the rates paid to the workers and the taxes the workers paid.

  After the subpoenas, a few people from the NY office showed up to teach me how to do payroll so I could write the checks.  My boss had me photocopy all the health records of the men who worked for both the NY company and my company.  The "president" of the company sat down with me to prepare me for an interview with the DOL and how I could answer any questions that came up when I showed them our files.  I was young and naive and I wanted to please the people who were paying me.  But not enough to go to jail for them.

I started feeling like a huge idiot when I was questioned:

Q:  Have you ever met any of the workers? 
A:  No

Q:  Have you ever seen any equipment or trucks?
A:  No, they are kept at the job site.

Q:  What about when you are between jobs?
A:  To my knowledge, we've always had at least one job.

Q:  How does the company get paid?
A:  I create an invoice for the amount that [individual-1] tells me and I mail it.  A check comes in the mail and I go to the bank and deposit the check into the company account.

Q:  Who signs the check?
A:  We have a stamp with [the president's] signature

Q:  Where did that stamp come from?
A:  I ordered it from the bank

Q:  How did you get them to give you a signature stamp of someone else's name?
A:  I typed a letter on letterhead authorizing me to request the signature stamp in the name of [the president]


I didn't know most of what was going on, but I just wanted to get what I needed until I could graduate and get out.  So I did...and I moved 900 miles away.  I thought it was all behind me.  And then the phone calls started.

The first one was from the US DOL Office of Organized Crime / Labor Racketeering.  I was to meet them that day at a hotel lobby. 
I did.  I didn't know much.  That started 6 years of 1-2 times per year being flown back to NY to answer questions for the DOL.  After 6 years, I testified at Grand Jury and then I testified at trial.  The whole time, while I was helping the DOL make their case, I knew in the back of my head that they could flip the script at any point and make it look as if I was in on the scam.  Because as I even admitted to them:  I knew something was fishy, but I didn't know what it was. 

At the Grand Jury, I answered questions posed to me by the US Attorney for SDNY.  After all of those questions, I left the room and the Grand Jury asked questions of the US Attorney, who then brought me back to answer those questions.  They only asked two questions:
1.  How much was I making when I worked there?; and
2.  Did I receive immunity for my testimony?

So here's the deal:  no matter how innocent you are or how naive (I was both), you still look guilty to people who are judging you.  People find it very hard to believe that anyone associated with the matter isn't "in on it" somehow.  If they couldn't make the case for the actual wrong-doers, they could have easily made one against me.  Yes, it would have fallen apart in court, but it also would have cost me a fortune in lawyers, travel, and time. 

My advice to your friend:  Have your friend leave asap and contact the state and US DOL to report this.  Tell them do not write any more texts to try to document anyone else's knowledge or to try to figure out what is going on.   Be as hands off as possible and allow the proper authorities to follow up if they choose to.  They may not.  Live the rest of his life in peace.



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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2019, 05:52:02 PM »
That is a crazy story. Given the fact that he is planning on staying for a year, it is very likely that when this blows over he could be dragged into it. The sad truth is that he is finding out more illegal things by the week. His coworkers hinted that there are a lot more illegal things but it's better that he doesn't know. Hopefully, if this blows over he can prove that he was in a position because of the pregnancy, that he couldn't walk away that easily. He is considering recording all conversations with management when he tells them it's wrong to have in case he decides to 1) report them or 2) defend himself.

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2019, 06:01:36 PM »
There is no more denying because of pre-existing condition so why can’t he look for a new job asap?

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2019, 11:45:12 AM »
That is a crazy story. Given the fact that he is planning on staying for a year, it is very likely that when this blows over he could be dragged into it. The sad truth is that he is finding out more illegal things by the week. His coworkers hinted that there are a lot more illegal things but it's better that he doesn't know. Hopefully, if this blows over he can prove that he was in a position because of the pregnancy, that he couldn't walk away that easily. He is considering recording all conversations with management when he tells them it's wrong to have in case he decides to 1) report them or 2) defend himself.

He needs to leave.  I realize it's not convenient, but the right thing is very often not the easiest thing. 
By knowing what's happening and not reporting, he is complicit. 

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2019, 05:27:37 PM »
That is a crazy story. Given the fact that he is planning on staying for a year, it is very likely that when this blows over he could be dragged into it. The sad truth is that he is finding out more illegal things by the week. His coworkers hinted that there are a lot more illegal things but it's better that he doesn't know. Hopefully, if this blows over he can prove that he was in a position because of the pregnancy, that he couldn't walk away that easily. He is considering recording all conversations with management when he tells them it's wrong to have in case he decides to 1) report them or 2) defend himself.

He needs to leave.  I realize it's not convenient, but the right thing is very often not the easiest thing. 
By knowing what's happening and not reporting, he is complicit.

What if he reports and stays until his wife gives birth?

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2019, 08:08:23 AM »
That is a crazy story. Given the fact that he is planning on staying for a year, it is very likely that when this blows over he could be dragged into it. The sad truth is that he is finding out more illegal things by the week. His coworkers hinted that there are a lot more illegal things but it's better that he doesn't know. Hopefully, if this blows over he can prove that he was in a position because of the pregnancy, that he couldn't walk away that easily. He is considering recording all conversations with management when he tells them it's wrong to have in case he decides to 1) report them or 2) defend himself.

He needs to leave.  I realize it's not convenient, but the right thing is very often not the easiest thing. 
By knowing what's happening and not reporting, he is complicit.

What if he reports and stays until his wife gives birth?
His choice I guess, but I think that may make his life very difficult.  Is it worth the stress to him?  After experiencing something similar, I just end up hating every time someone doesn't follow rules.  rule breakers and law breakers fuck up the ability of other decent people to just get on with their lives. 

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2019, 08:18:31 AM »
He should announce that someone in his family has health problems and that he needs to return home.

+1. 

If this is federal law being broken, then he should go and report, AFTER he has re-settled.

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Re: Help - WWYD - Discovered Fraudulent Company
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2019, 12:36:19 PM »
It doesn't just have to be someone in that company that finds your friend to be a problem. It could be someone from one of these other companies who is colluding on price fixing who decides he's a problem. I would also be very cautious about his health.